The reason heavy repetition works in genres such as house music or rap is because a good producer is constantly bringing in or taking out elements in the mix so that the listener stays engaged.
@@mgregory22 a lot of people listen to it while driving too. Which makes sense because one isn’t fully focused on music while driving. I listen to it while programming computer software. Makes sense that the listener is not fully engaged.
@@mgregory22 Or perhaps some people feel rhythmic variation through layering and timbre variation through automation to be equally as satisfying as melodic variation and therefore don't find the music to be too repetitive in the first place. That's how I am with things, but I also produce techno so my relationship with dance music goes way beyond just that.
Yeah. The melody and chords may remain the same, but the sound structure of the song changes. Different types of music tend to use slightly different methods. For example, an EDM song with too many different chord or melody changes would sound "wrong" in some way. But the rule of three can be applied here as well: for example, two verses are identical and for the third one a different synthesizer sound with the same chord progression. However, the brain needs a little change along the way to stay awake.
When I started producing , I made super complex melodies without any repetitions, then I learned about making simpler melodies which I then repeated too much, now I naturally do what you point out in this video. After 2 repetitions I naturally feel like something different must follow.
I have just seen this video and you for the first time. (Liked and subscribed). I am British and my father, Lewis Warburton, was an arranger in the pop industry in the 1960’s and 1970’s. He was actually the top arranger in the UK during that time and if you look up his list of songs he worked on it was massive. He told me about the rule of three decades ago, so you are correct. I hope you read this. Cheers.
Very interesting, my surname is the same, lots of relatives from barrow in Furness, i always wondered about the bread making as family, interesting to find a link to the music I love, cheers Warbo ..👍🏻
I think there's a 3rd option which is in arrangement. Chords and melody can remain the same so long as you're dropping in a new beat/texture/harmony etc.
The rule of three is everywhere and so powerful. Public speaking, framing a picture, decorating, the preacher's three-point sermon, poetry... No wonder it applies in music! Thanks Nathan for bringing it to our attention in this context.
Repeating ideas can be beneficial if the context around it is changes. I feel like trap, hip hop, and Jazz all utilize repetition in one area ( drums , bass line, chord progressions) but with the improvisation over these repetitive elements helps to make a nice balance of both
And then electronic music throws in mixdown effects for the variation. The otherwise very repetitive thing gets put through something like a pitch shift or cutoff filter to add the new element aspect to it.
Been using this for a long time without knowing it ! But one day, one of my teachers in college gave a whole 3 hours class about how repetition was perceived in music from the 17th century to nowadays. He started the class playing the first bar of Mozart's 16th sonata for piano in C major on repeat for five litteral minutes. He didn't even say a word and just looked at us with an absurdly wide smile the whole time. After 5 minutes, he stood up and said "Let's talk about repetition". Absolute genius. And most of the class was about that rule 👌
That ‘changing the idea slightly on the third repetition’ idea is GENIUS! There is so much flexibility there and it really gets my songwriting wheels turning. Thanks for the great video as always!
I do this subconsciously. With my melodies, I find myself wanting to change the third time cause it just feels right. But thank you for analyzing it for me and allowing me to understand the science behind this!
@ghost mall depends on what comes after, if the melody is a chorus, by the fourth one you should be ending it, so it takes you back to the 1st one but it' got a different ending, if not then I would say go back. it's a balance of having the melody stay consistent but not sounding to repetitive, it's about getting that melody stuck in their head but still introducing new ideas to keep them listening
What's cool is you can then take the entire section (the three progressions) and apply the rule of 3 to it. So: 1, 2, 3+new / 1, 2, 3+new / new section
Actually never thought hard about this, but almost subcontiously i always change up the third round, and have the 4th go back to the same as 1 and 2. Its a really neat and beautiful "trick"
There's no reason to 'think hard' about it. It's pretty obvious - two cream cakes, yum yum. By the third, you wish you hadn't. Random: 99 Red Balloons is aextremely annoying because the extremely annoying phrase '99 red balloons' is repeat over and over.
The key word there is Intention, as you said. If it's your intention, over-repeat. IMO, the main goal in a songwriting is to give purpose to the elements, not just stacking musical ideas.
Hey Nathan, I've been pointing this rule out so many times, it's almost the golden secret of songwriting success. Mozart did this a lot BTW. In Eric Beall's book "The Billboard Guide to Writing and Producing sings that sell." I found this interview with Tor Erik Hermansen (part of STARGATE) where he talks about a quote from George Martin (the legendary producer of the Beatles.) I'm gonna copy this small part of the book here because it's a gold nugget. On page 196 TOR says: "Melodies that work have a lot in common. I saw an interview once with Sir George Martin. He was saying that, for some reason, all of the best pop songs have two repetitive lines in the beginning of the chorus, then a climax, then a resolution. I was like, "You gotta be crazy." Then I started to listen to different, big songs, and I realized, "He's right." You could easily find a lot of exceptions. But I looked at the songs we (Stargate) did that worked, and it dawned on me that they had the same formula." End fragment of the book. Keep up the great video's!
I started writing my first songs in the 1980s on my MIDI sequencer and synth. With a sequencer or computer, it's very easy to fall into the trap of repeating something four times before moving on to something new, or composing by repeating something and then layering more parts on it after a couple of repeats to make the song build. And composing that way works for some genres, but it's not good rock or pop songwriting. The next step is writing a melody, and usually you come up with a call and response, so you have A and B. You want four lines for a verse so you repeat that and have ABAB. That worked in "Peaceful Easy Feeling" but if you write every song that way, they can be monotonous. ABCA or ABCB or ABAC melodies, which is essentially what's being shown here, are much more effective. I totally agree that good songwriting is not some instinct or some mystery that only gifted people can grasp. It's putting good. often not very complicated writing techniques to use.
You see, the fugue works so well because it’s the same theme repeated time and time again but always in a new context. In a different voice, on the dominant instead of the tonic, in a different key, augmented, inverted, reversed, on a weak beat, syncopated, and so on and so forth. You can listen to the exact same 4 note melody 12 times in rapid succession and every single repetition is new in some way. The effect really is quite remarkable.
This is the key to great music. You’re listening to the same thing but it keeps morphing so you get to listen to something familiar the whole time subconsciously
Your demonstration piano piece sounded like an intro. Those types of intros are so common, you could set your watch to it (a watch is a clock you can wear on your wrist that used to require frequent tuning). I noticed that classical music repeats a line/melody/motif only twice and consistently twice.. until it doesn't. It's pretty clever how they do that.
I like how this concept can apply to literally anything in life. For example, there is a guy I work with that likes to tell stories…you get where this is going? So naturally after so many times of hearing his same stories over and over again, we all just tune him out.
You are right. Thank you for sharing with us. Also, I would add that people like hearing themes/topics. Like in classical music, as we listened in highschool, I noticed it applies to other genres. Basically, you are listening to a melody, that's a theme/topic "a", then when the melody changes, that's a theme/topic "b". Then when you add, for example, a bridge, you are creating the theme/topic "c". So, the song can basically be: a, b, a, b, c, b. That is: verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus. By changing themes/topics, you "tease" the listeners attention and they are continuing to be intrigued by what you are offering musically, but also, they feel connected with the melody that they heard already, or that you even slightly modified (the second and third time the same chorus). So cool, right?! 🙂
I was listening to the Starcraft 1 song Terran 3 earlier tonight; I realized the buildup part with the guitar that plays a pedal point follows this rule to the letter!
most creative pursuits seem to have SOME sort of rule of 3. (rising action/climax/falling action in stories; interior decor has triads of focal points; middle/foreground/background in visual art...) so any time I try a new creative project, regardless the medium, I have some idea of structural framework to play with. abstract relationship
This is great. The 2/3 pattern is sort of the same format as a typical joke. The first 2 times set up a pattern and expectation. Your brain thinks it's got it figured out. But the third breaks the expectation in an expected clever way. And this can cause physical laughter when done well. Great video!
beginner here, i had kind of a revelation when watching your first melody example, you accompanied your right hand melody notes with note from its chord. that gave something to follow and experiment with that had some kind of logic easy to grasp
Cool stuff. Musical psychology. Another I like is introducing a partial theme, sound or motif in the intro to pre-register it with the listener. I like the way the news is formatted. Tell them what you're going to tell them. Now tell them. Finally, tell them what you told them.
This is why I try to make variations both in the drums and the melody each 8 bars and sometimes repeat it back later on. I did this intuitively but its good to know there is a rule for that.
Excellent discussion. This concept is indeed extremely powerful. Think of virtually every joke you’ve ever heard: rule of 3. Comedy sketches often follow this format. Films are generally written in three acts. Sonata form and other musical forms are in three sections (exposition, development, recapitulation, etc). The rule of three is kind of the basis of human expression (as is the deliberate, knowledgable breaking of this rule) One thing I think can be added here. In the specific context of this video, the two or three repetitious phrases are there functionally to SET UP the departure in the fourth phrase, which the ear thinks is going to just be a fourth repetition, but is pleasantly surprised to hear it go (slightly) somewhere else this fourth time.
This is the first time I've heard this explanation, and I think it's quite valid for pop music in the 20th & 21st centuries. That said, you mention some who have succeeded even when intentionally 'breaking' that rule. One example that came to my mind almost immediately is JS Bach, who over 300 years ago, wrote the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor. He took an 8-bar motif and repeated it 21 times, each time making a variation of some sort. But the theme was clear throughout. The 21st variation was turned into a brilliant double fugue. It is considered by many to be one of Bach's best organ works. Thanks for your presentation, although I did find your super-fast speaking speed a bit hard to absorb. Good luck to you.
Nathan, your explanation was precisely what I need to hear for the song I'm working on. I was feeling too much repetition. " There must be some kinda way outa here ... " Thanks
I am actually learning something from this, thanks Nathan. I love this arrangement rule so far, it has taken my music from point A to B quicker than ever.
Rock solid advice here and nice video to boot. I think too on extremely subtle levels too excellent producers follow this rule. For instance I watched one guy saturate a random pattern of snares differently for an o so subtle unexpected sizzle that you can hear if you listen for it. But the argument was that even if the listener isn’t conscious of it, their ear is and they find it inexplicably more pleasing and worthy of their attention. This advice also applies in classical music, I rarely if ever see the same exact idea repeated, even in ABA compositions. Ravels Bolero is an exception, but even there the timbre is always changing and the dynamics always evolving. So your the rule you discuss here is iron clad even in areas beyond arrangement.
This is something I need to remind myself when I create. I still find myself leaning into bad habits of repetition even after a year of learning how to produce/compose music. Thanks for the advice!
A rule a live by in production is something my teachers call the 7-14 rule. Basically, if you repeat an idea, you have 7 to 14 seconds to try and make it different, whether it’s in instrumentation, harmonics, rhythm, etc.. I’ve found that following this makes repetition a lot more bearable, even going past 10 times for short phrases.
1. Ive watched probably more 10000 videos on music production, but this one is the most distinct among all of them. And i really mean it. 2. But, this what u r explaining is art more than a trick or technique. Hence it can't be learnt, but can be developed over a thousand times of practice. 3. I realised that i was doing this unknowingly. 4. Nathan, U r a gud soul, bcoz this info is smthing which no one wud like to share as it is that secret formula which no one wud like to share untill he isnt that "insecure" "self centered" "cunning" human being. 4. I respect u for ur efforts to share these untold, uncommon tips of music production which no one wud share for selfish reasons. U r doing a charity. 😊❤️🤘 Best wishes from my side 3.
Honestly this melody is so symmetrical (the rhythm, the repeated note in the same spot, the skip step, then step skip the 2nd time). I wanted it to vary by the second repetition because that actually felt like the 3rd and 4th time I heard the same idea. Anyone else feel that?
Excellent concept to keep in mind, and a challenging question making modern music. What is the most effective novelty/repetition ratio? There's also now infinite ways to create novelty outside of traditional composition. Modern listeners tend crave brute harmonic repetition more than anything. It tends to be aesthetics, dynamics and production that provide main the novelty + contrast. I think of a song like Smells Like Teen Spirit. Four chords the whole time except for the end of each chorus. Novelty doesn't come from the composition as much as it does from radical dynamic contrast and vocal expression.
Really interesting! To my ear, you went from 2, to 4, to 6, not 1-2-3. Your natural inclination to “pretend I already played one, so I’m starting on the second” demonstrates this, I think. I don’t do it on purpose (as in thinking it’s a hard and fast rule, but I tend to follow rule of three for stanzas as well!
Really interesting idea. I’ve never thought about it like that before and it’s definitely something I’ll be implementing when I’m writing music from now on. Thanks for posting this.
This really comes down to the concept of form .perpetrated by the originals , namely the Sonata Allegro form. The secondary theme in the "exposition" became the beginning of song writing. It evolved into the AABA Form with the 3x repetition of the main theme evolved from the Sonata Allegro form: Exposition, development and recapitulation. The AABA became the song form.
Never seen your channel before. This "Rule of Three" idea is great. Having done it for years without knowing it, it's good to know both why, and how to do it better. One comment. I was having a little trouble keeping up with you. I slowed the video down to .75, and though just a tad too slow, I could follow more readily. See if you notice the difference. Thanks for the tip!
When studying Beethoven and Mahler I discovered that they both do these two things. First, the introduce a theme in pieces. They give you just bits in various instrumentation of the thee themes then at that golden moment the whole theme is played. They mess with your mind is if teasing you and creating great anticipation that many times you didn't even see coming. Then when it happens your brain has a great sense of satisfaction and maybe even wonderment. Here the second, and this is crazy to me. Gustave Mahler will present a them early on in a work, maybe repeat it so it gets into your memory. Then later on bring it back but it is a bit twisted. So the question is, which one is the theme and which one is the variation. Psychologically, which one is the reality and which is the dream or the premonition or simply the bits of memory or scattered reminiscence of the actual theme or idea. The last movement of Beethoven Symphony 9 does this. So does Mahler Symphony 3.
When you regularly listen to music, you cant help but notice this anyway. I often found myself deleting the third repetition of a melody as it just feels off. Solid advice tho
I was sponsored by a free guitar teaching company that sent me to a music school for composing for a bit and this is basically exactly what I learned. They got all mathematical with it which felt redundant but regardless it cured my “repeat this part like a church song would” tendency and helped my songwriting immensely
Here’s a thought: complex music that does not repeat has a totally different aspect when you consider multiple listens. Some songs take many listens to “remember” but I think they can stick even longer and more profoundly. This is the kind of music that you have to “get in to” by listening to it a lot though.
Well said, Nathan! Thank you… having actual listeners, viewers, readers etc. is an amazing privilege that we shouldn't squander. Bore them, and they may never return. Surprise them and respect their intelligence, and they just might give you a rewarding career :)
I really am learning so much from your incredible videos, over the last few days I’ve watched around 20 of them. Incredible content. Once I’ve concreted the concepts I’ll be sure to buy some of your content to help me further. I’m just a 34 year old dad who’s written music on and off since I was 16 and simply doing it for the love of music but I love the feeling of honing a craft
This is an excellent video -- solid tips from start to finish. You make a great point about intentionality when composing; too often I find myself guilty of starting a song with a progression, bass line and melody and then just strumming or arpeggiating a chord voicing to pad out the harmony without *actually thinking* how that's going to affect how the song is received, or if that arrangement is really conveying what the song is all about.
Worked this rule out 16 years ago when sampling Loop for 3 bars and extend the 3rd loop to the 4th bar add somthing new or take something away when looping those same for bars. Similar story for drums.
Great video... you must add that every rule has an exception. Also it is a very genre oriented. The rule of three is utilized in many art forms. I think that the most important thing is to get inspired and write your heart on a piece of paper. Having said that your video is fantastic and the analogy with a conversation and delivering a concept to someone is very correct in my opinion 🙏🏻 keep up your good work 🤘🏻
Listening to you on this topic the song that really sticks out in my mind is Pachebel's Canon in D! The main theme is repeated many many times! Yes variations are built on top giving the song interest! So it is not the actual repetition that makes any song boring! There are so many hit songs that repeat constantly throughout that prove that is wrong! It is not the repetition, as this is what makes the song what it is , it is the lack of addition on top of that idea that ultimately brings them down! Find any backing track, and do an improv with it, or even a simple boring drum beat as the foundation can be made to feel exciting even if it's repetitive!
As a game graphic programmer this concept is central to natural visuals. Repetitions of 3, 5 & 7 when texturing are critical to breaking up repetition. (Nintendo were king at this.) Same with set dressing & photography ❤️
I have a track that I think I did everything right on except for the lead because of over-repetition. Can't thank you enough for this video because that track means a lot to me and now I can fix it with these tips
This is very true, but I'd point out that the alteration to the idea to re-capture attention doesn't have to be a massive alteration. I have taught people basically the same sort of concept and they think it requires you to have a completely new riff every 8 bars. Some compositions do that and succeed but it isn't mandatory. Little subtle changes or even a bit of production elements that washes through can be enough. If you listen to a lot of 80s pop, when they repeated the chorus after the solo, on the second chorus repeat they often simply moved the entire motif up a whole step. No other change. That was usually enough to get the ear to reach back out to the piece. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat.
Btw you can try this: make a little loop. Then add effects to it like delay and reverb or oneshot samples. If you listen to the loop with something changing, even if it's jsut tiny tiny changes like a underlying slow lfo, it makes the loop more listenable but if there is no change you quickly tune it out. Got some simple Korg Volcas and I notice this all the time as they only have a 16 step sequencer. It gets old very quick unless you add in/change or remove something. Even if it's just another instrument or me humming a tune it makes it so much more listenable. If I leave it alone for just a few loops, I don't wanna hear it no more and it starts to really bother me.
I think I've applied the "rule of three" in my composing all my life without thinking about it. I hate redundancy. I've composed piano music since childhood and learned all I know of compositional structure by listening to great music, of many genres. For example, the way I've structured one of these pieces, it starts with a theme, or melody line, played just once. Then come a series of segments, each one leading into the other like chapters in a book. The last of those segments takes me right back to the melody line I started with, right before the piece ends. This kind of structure leaves the listener a sense of having gone "full circle". I've composed material from baroque to jazz, structured in various ways. Whatever the genre, I strive for chord changes and details that surprise the ear. I don't like my music to be too predictable... which is why it kinda sucks for jamming though. Because those surprises can throw off someone trying to jam, who's not familiar with the music.
This video came to my feed, exactly when I was background thinking:”May be using same very beautifull progression in the album twice is “too much good”. So I got to change it so that it the second time is s sort of “distant echo of something you heard before, but not repetition.” Thanks for good essay!
Queen exploited this psycho-acoustic phenomenon to great success early in their songwriting. But, I think they would have called it 'the rule of 2', in that they intentionally changed the chordal/voicing riff of the end of the verses - sometimes every verse. Great examples of this are found in "Killer Queen", "Great King Rat", and "Prophet's Song". It's a thing that makes the ear listen - to take note (no pun intended). Alas, there are some less aural-integral persons who, sadly, cannot sense the change at all. Thanks, Nathan. You're helping a lot of people understand the complexities of music - way beyond chords and meters. I hope they can appreciate it.
It's not just Queen. This practice of introducing an idea, and following it with a slight variation of it, is about as old as... well, as old as humanity itself. For an old, obvious example: Beethoven's "Ode to joy" theme.
Thanks so much. You have pointed out what is part of every day, not just in music, but in everything. Because it is so ingrained it becomes invisible. Making this rule visible with the explaination is a fantastic help; not just for music but for each part of life. That may sound over the top, but I believe it. Thanks for showing this to me/us.
i noticed this in hardstyle / techno ish songs, they have great arrangments, i remember one idea from one song or two at most, but the same idea, on focusing, was never repeated, it usually keeps evolving
Whats crazy to me, is i feel like i was applying this naturally without knowing. Going to be much more efficient with it now that ive heard it and become fully aware of it. Thank you !
I wanted to let you know that I found this video to be incredibly informative. It’s one thing to try and help people understand in a context where they say “Yeah. I get it” …. But to create an intriguing piece of vital information that RESONATES with a human is a complete other. Considering your proclaimed passion for music and making GOOD music, specifically, this is genuinely felt throughout the vibe in this video and to see genuine love and adoration for the vibrations in which change molecules & atoms within humans, is truly amazing. So… Thank you. 🙏🏼
it depends of the style. To reach a trance, you need to exploit repetition. Whether it's with dub, techno, any minimalist musical genre that's based on repetition. You bring variations in the timbre and textural content but not melodic, that's what the concept of a drone is. And often, the variations are subtle and happen over long periods of time. I get what you're saying though, sometimes, just a simple inversion on the 3 bar can change a lot.
I call it triviality to my students. It's interesting to finally see someone else addressing this. People tend to not being all too considerate about it. Which is a shame because as of now more and more people are getting used to it and thinking that this is the way to do it, making music. Very frustrating sometimes 😂
I now realize that I've been doing this naturally, but never really thought about it as a subject. Neat! When I come up with a passage, I only play that way once or twice, but then I change things up, and it doesn't lose its interest.
If your wife doesn’t like your song after several times (10,50 doesn’t matter) it means you’ve made bad song, and nothing else. As VFX artist I’ve been working with tons of songs and good ones will always sound pleasant to you even torn in pieces and played by chunks thousands of times back and forth. And actually this is the most perfect way to check your music for quality. Listener might no longer be excited with the same song but he will never dislike it if it’s good. If you’re tired with song played 10+ times in a row - it’s mediocre song. Just like that.
When it is repeated at a different timeframe as a bgm in a movie it can be played in a different octave or using a different tonal instrumental which helps to reinforce a particular mood which the listener can relate to
Avicii adds variation in other ways such as evolving the sound design of his synths or changing up the percussion. This method can be applied to more than just melodies. Long story short, add variation in some way to keep it from getting boring.
If only Modern Day Artists would use the Rule of 3. Every single song on the radio today......is the same 4 chords over and over and over and over again. My family makes fun of todays music in the car....we sing the bass notes the whole song until someone says STOOOP! Your ruining the song! - Good times....good times!
Chords aren’t a melodic idea though. You can say the same about drumbeats -they repeat 100x in a song. He’s talking purely about melody here - the stuff that gets in your head. The lead. Background stuff doesn’t even register in listeners minds
@@GabrielBacon the average listener for sure. I haven’t been able to listen to music for over a year without trying to guess every stem in the track. It’s a curse sometimes lol
I understood that You gotta have your listener truly engage throughout the entire song. In a way, he won't be able not even to make decisions until the song finishes.
A real neurological fact, very well described. We're always trying to find the line between the familiar & unexpected, comforting & disconcerting aren't we...
Great video! This reminds me of another rule of three that I’ve heard that applies to music, poetry, comedy, etc. For instance, Lucy In The Sky, the chorus line happens three times per (with stacking harmonies on the third time). 4 times sounds like too many, 2 doesn’t feel like enough. Interesting to see that 3 is sometimes perfect but sometimes where people lose interest.
thank you for identifying how our brains respond to music. I want to make music for a response and sensory experience, but too many videos overlook the actual experience when making certain choices
I didn't really get rid of the piano after you played it three times, I actually enjoyed it. Mabye my brains a little slow though, because when u said we should rememeber after 2 plays I only remembered the first note
The rule of three pops up in so many places, but relies on that same instinctive mental anticipation and attention people have. The first time I was introduced to this was in martial arts. Works there, too.
I've basically been doing this but didnt know what it's called that's cool to know. I love adding layers maintaining the same sound but different enough to make it interesting it's that element of mystery not letting the listener know what's coming next
The reason heavy repetition works in genres such as house music or rap is because a good producer is constantly bringing in or taking out elements in the mix so that the listener stays engaged.
True. For dance music, the repetition (and long song length) also helps DJs bring songs in and take songs out smoothly.
The reason it works for dance music is because people don't actively listen to dance music. It's made for dancing, not thoughtful listening.
@@mgregory22 a lot of people listen to it while driving too. Which makes sense because one isn’t fully focused on music while driving. I listen to it while programming computer software. Makes sense that the listener is not fully engaged.
@@mgregory22 Or perhaps some people feel rhythmic variation through layering and timbre variation through automation to be equally as satisfying as melodic variation and therefore don't find the music to be too repetitive in the first place. That's how I am with things, but I also produce techno so my relationship with dance music goes way beyond just that.
Yeah. The melody and chords may remain the same, but the sound structure of the song changes. Different types of music tend to use slightly different methods. For example, an EDM song with too many different chord or melody changes would sound "wrong" in some way. But the rule of three can be applied here as well: for example, two verses are identical and for the third one a different synthesizer sound with the same chord progression. However, the brain needs a little change along the way to stay awake.
Introduce a theme, use it just twice. Add another theme. Reintroduce the initial theme later, with a twist / bigger….it’s just natural. It works.
So it’s very similar to a fugue
Makes me think of an AABA structure in jazz
@@thecelloguy4412very similar to many types of music. Not just fugues
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
Repetition with variation
When I started producing , I made super complex melodies without any repetitions, then I learned about making simpler melodies which I then repeated too much, now I naturally do what you point out in this video. After 2 repetitions I naturally feel like something different must follow.
I feel like this is where I am at right now. I used to love making crazy complex melodies and recently I've been experimenting with simpler stuff.
But I make complex and simple Melodies 🎉😂
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
The time has come. You must meditate upon your choices. 222 ❤
@@highestpeeqs9532 can he hop on my beat though
I have just seen this video and you for the first time. (Liked and subscribed). I am British and my father, Lewis Warburton, was an arranger in the pop industry in the 1960’s and 1970’s. He was actually the top arranger in the UK during that time and if you look up his list of songs he worked on it was massive. He told me about the rule of three decades ago, so you are correct. I hope you read this. Cheers.
so I looked it up and wow my hat off to him. How are your arranging skills? I'm sure amazing. I hope you and ur family stay blessed and safe.
And I just saw it fam…
Can i get some links? UA-cam gave me a minecraft channel when i searched for Lewis Warburton….. thanks!
Very interesting, my surname is the same, lots of relatives from barrow in Furness, i always wondered about the bread making as family, interesting to find a link to the music I love, cheers Warbo ..👍🏻
@@BlackMirrorDesignerI don’t think you should of thanked him
I think there's a 3rd option which is in arrangement. Chords and melody can remain the same so long as you're dropping in a new beat/texture/harmony etc.
The lyrics are important too. You'll follow them.
Agreed. Or new instruments. Hence Bolero. Though some people hate the repetition in Bolero.
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
@@highestpeeqs9532Does he mind if we repent by making catchy music
I agree, I try to add something new after every second loop, no matter how subtle
The rule of three is everywhere and so powerful. Public speaking, framing a picture, decorating, the preacher's three-point sermon, poetry... No wonder it applies in music! Thanks Nathan for bringing it to our attention in this context.
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
Repeating ideas can be beneficial if the context around it is changes. I feel like trap, hip hop, and Jazz all utilize repetition in one area ( drums , bass line, chord progressions) but with the improvisation over these repetitive elements helps to make a nice balance of both
This is exactly what I thought
Break it down. Well said!
And then electronic music throws in mixdown effects for the variation. The otherwise very repetitive thing gets put through something like a pitch shift or cutoff filter to add the new element aspect to it.
Exactly, a chord progression is often used as a simple base were any diferent instruments, arrangements and melodies can be hapening along it.
I don't think trap and modern hip-hop and "nice balance" can honestly be mentioned in the same sentence
I've been writing like this since I was a teenager, and just didn't know what it was called. Music is so amazingly universal.
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
Man hit it spot on. Universal
Been using this for a long time without knowing it ! But one day, one of my teachers in college gave a whole 3 hours class about how repetition was perceived in music from the 17th century to nowadays. He started the class playing the first bar of Mozart's 16th sonata for piano in C major on repeat for five litteral minutes. He didn't even say a word and just looked at us with an absurdly wide smile the whole time. After 5 minutes, he stood up and said "Let's talk about repetition". Absolute genius.
And most of the class was about that rule 👌
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
@@highestpeeqs9532so does the Easter bunny
That ‘changing the idea slightly on the third repetition’ idea is GENIUS! There is so much flexibility there and it really gets my songwriting wheels turning. Thanks for the great video as always!
I do this subconsciously. With my melodies, I find myself wanting to change the third time cause it just feels right. But thank you for analyzing it for me and allowing me to understand the science behind this!
@ghost mall depends on what comes after, if the melody is a chorus, by the fourth one you should be ending it, so it takes you back to the 1st one but it' got a different ending, if not then I would say go back. it's a balance of having the melody stay consistent but not sounding to repetitive, it's about getting that melody stuck in their head but still introducing new ideas to keep them listening
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
What's cool is you can then take the entire section (the three progressions) and apply the rule of 3 to it.
So: 1, 2, 3+new / 1, 2, 3+new / new section
Actually never thought hard about this, but almost subcontiously i always change up the third round, and have the 4th go back to the same as 1 and 2. Its a really neat and beautiful "trick"
AABA isn't it?
There's no reason to 'think hard' about it. It's pretty obvious - two cream cakes, yum yum. By the third, you wish you hadn't. Random: 99 Red Balloons is aextremely annoying because the extremely annoying phrase '99 red balloons' is repeat over and over.
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
@@--legion WRONG
The key word there is Intention, as you said. If it's your intention, over-repeat. IMO, the main goal in a songwriting is to give purpose to the elements, not just stacking musical ideas.
Change it up every eight beats. That’s what my guitar teacher taught me when improvising a solo.
Hey Nathan, I've been pointing this rule out so many times, it's almost the golden secret of songwriting success. Mozart did this a lot BTW. In Eric Beall's book "The Billboard Guide to Writing and Producing sings that sell." I found this interview with Tor Erik Hermansen (part of STARGATE) where he talks about a quote from George Martin (the legendary producer of the Beatles.) I'm gonna copy this small part of the book here because it's a gold nugget. On page 196 TOR says: "Melodies that work have a lot in common. I saw an interview once with Sir George Martin. He was saying that, for some reason, all of the best pop songs have two repetitive lines in the beginning of the chorus, then a climax, then a resolution. I was like, "You gotta be crazy." Then I started to listen to different, big songs, and I realized, "He's right." You could easily find a lot of exceptions. But I looked at the songs we (Stargate) did that worked, and it dawned on me that they had the same formula." End fragment of the book. Keep up the great video's!
Bro this chorus melody structure makes so much sense! Thanks for sharing, I took some notes (pun intended)
Name some songs that does this. I would like to see.
Yeah a few examples would be awesome.
thank you for sharing this really do thank you and i will go do the rest of the work and look it up.
@@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69 Just off the top of my head, "Get Back" by the Beatles and "We Can't Stop" by Miley Cyrus
I started writing my first songs in the 1980s on my MIDI sequencer and synth. With a sequencer or computer, it's very easy to fall into the trap of repeating something four times before moving on to something new, or composing by repeating something and then layering more parts on it after a couple of repeats to make the song build. And composing that way works for some genres, but it's not good rock or pop songwriting.
The next step is writing a melody, and usually you come up with a call and response, so you have A and B. You want four lines for a verse so you repeat that and have ABAB. That worked in "Peaceful Easy Feeling" but if you write every song that way, they can be monotonous. ABCA or ABCB or ABAC melodies, which is essentially what's being shown here, are much more effective. I totally agree that good songwriting is not some instinct or some mystery that only gifted people can grasp. It's putting good. often not very complicated writing techniques to use.
I’ve actually unknowingly noticed this when analyzing other artists intros and trying to replicate this interesting concept indeed
You see, the fugue works so well because it’s the same theme repeated time and time again but always in a new context. In a different voice, on the dominant instead of the tonic, in a different key, augmented, inverted, reversed, on a weak beat, syncopated, and so on and so forth. You can listen to the exact same 4 note melody 12 times in rapid succession and every single repetition is new in some way. The effect really is quite remarkable.
This is the key to great music. You’re listening to the same thing but it keeps morphing so you get to listen to something familiar the whole time subconsciously
Your demonstration piano piece sounded like an intro. Those types of intros are so common, you could set your watch to it (a watch is a clock you can wear on your wrist that used to require frequent tuning). I noticed that classical music repeats a line/melody/motif only twice and consistently twice.. until it doesn't. It's pretty clever how they do that.
I like how this concept can apply to literally anything in life. For example, there is a guy I work with that likes to tell stories…you get where this is going? So naturally after so many times of hearing his same stories over and over again, we all just tune him out.
This video single handedly fixed my music. Well... from here on out anyway. Thank you.
You are right. Thank you for sharing with us. Also, I would add that people like hearing themes/topics. Like in classical music, as we listened in highschool, I noticed it applies to other genres. Basically, you are listening to a melody, that's a theme/topic "a", then when the melody changes, that's a theme/topic "b". Then when you add, for example, a bridge, you are creating the theme/topic "c". So, the song can basically be: a, b, a, b, c, b. That is: verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus. By changing themes/topics, you "tease" the listeners attention and they are continuing to be intrigued by what you are offering musically, but also, they feel connected with the melody that they heard already, or that you even slightly modified (the second and third time the same chorus). So cool, right?! 🙂
That's a great explanation.
@@davidpetersonharvey Thank you for your comment. I appreciate.
I was listening to the Starcraft 1 song Terran 3 earlier tonight; I realized the buildup part with the guitar that plays a pedal point follows this rule to the letter!
most creative pursuits seem to have SOME sort of rule of 3. (rising action/climax/falling action in stories; interior decor has triads of focal points; middle/foreground/background in visual art...) so any time I try a new creative project, regardless the medium, I have some idea of structural framework to play with. abstract relationship
3 guys walk into a bar…😊😊
more of these please! more arrangement/songwriting! this is fireeeeee
This is great. The 2/3 pattern is sort of the same format as a typical joke. The first 2 times set up a pattern and expectation. Your brain thinks it's got it figured out. But the third breaks the expectation in an expected clever way. And this can cause physical laughter when done well. Great video!
beginner here, i had kind of a revelation when watching your first melody example, you accompanied your right hand melody notes with note from its chord. that gave something to follow and experiment with that had some kind of logic easy to grasp
Cool stuff. Musical psychology. Another I like is introducing a partial theme, sound or motif in the intro to pre-register it with the listener. I like the way the news is formatted. Tell them what you're going to tell them. Now tell them. Finally, tell them what you told them.
Great point. A lot of songs use the chorus vocal as a synth/piano/guitar intro to embed it in the listener's mind.
Nice analogy actually 👌
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
You have demonstrated an even more important principle - setting up expectations then deviating from them. This creates surprise
This is why I try to make variations both in the drums and the melody each 8 bars and sometimes repeat it back later on.
I did this intuitively but its good to know there is a rule for that.
Excellent discussion. This concept is indeed extremely powerful. Think of virtually every joke you’ve ever heard: rule of 3. Comedy sketches often follow this format. Films are generally written in three acts. Sonata form and other musical forms are in three sections (exposition, development, recapitulation, etc). The rule of three is kind of the basis of human expression (as is the deliberate, knowledgable breaking of this rule)
One thing I think can be added here. In the specific context of this video, the two or three repetitious phrases are there functionally to SET UP the departure in the fourth phrase, which the ear thinks is going to just be a fourth repetition, but is pleasantly surprised to hear it go (slightly) somewhere else this fourth time.
This is the first time I've heard this explanation, and I think it's quite valid for pop music in the 20th & 21st centuries. That said, you mention some who have succeeded even when intentionally 'breaking' that rule. One example that came to my mind almost immediately is JS Bach, who over 300 years ago, wrote the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor. He took an 8-bar motif and repeated it 21 times, each time making a variation of some sort. But the theme was clear throughout. The 21st variation was turned into a brilliant double fugue. It is considered by many to be one of Bach's best organ works.
Thanks for your presentation, although I did find your super-fast speaking speed a bit hard to absorb. Good luck to you.
Nathan, your explanation was precisely what I need to hear for the song I'm working on. I was feeling too much repetition. " There must be some kinda way outa here ... " Thanks
I am actually learning something from this, thanks Nathan. I love this arrangement rule so far, it has taken my music from point A to B quicker than ever.
I love how he reinforced the reinforcing rule which reinforced my reinforcements reinforcements!
Rock solid advice here and nice video to boot. I think too on extremely subtle levels too excellent producers follow this rule. For instance I watched one guy saturate a random pattern of snares differently for an o so subtle unexpected sizzle that you can hear if you listen for it. But the argument was that even if the listener isn’t conscious of it, their ear is and they find it inexplicably more pleasing and worthy of their attention. This advice also applies in classical music, I rarely if ever see the same exact idea repeated, even in ABA compositions. Ravels Bolero is an exception, but even there the timbre is always changing and the dynamics always evolving. So your the rule you discuss here is iron clad even in areas beyond arrangement.
This is something I need to remind myself when I create. I still find myself leaning into bad habits of repetition even after a year of learning how to produce/compose music.
Thanks for the advice!
Question: how were the old producers in the 80s and 90s able to create life lasting hit records?
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
@@highestpeeqs9532Seriously, go be with Jesus alone. No one is here to be preached at. People like you are why I loathe Christianity
Cocaine
Cuz our brains like songs and turns out in the 80s and 90s they made some that our brains liked. Hope this helps 👍
A rule a live by in production is something my teachers call the 7-14 rule. Basically, if you repeat an idea, you have 7 to 14 seconds to try and make it different, whether it’s in instrumentation, harmonics, rhythm, etc.. I’ve found that following this makes repetition a lot more bearable, even going past 10 times for short phrases.
1. Ive watched probably more 10000 videos on music production, but this one is the most distinct among all of them. And i really mean it.
2. But, this what u r explaining is art more than a trick or technique. Hence it can't be learnt, but can be developed over a thousand times of practice.
3. I realised that i was doing this unknowingly.
4. Nathan, U r a gud soul, bcoz this info is smthing which no one wud like to share as it is that secret formula which no one wud like to share untill he isnt that "insecure" "self centered" "cunning" human being.
4. I respect u for ur efforts to share these untold, uncommon tips of music production which no one wud share for selfish reasons. U r doing a charity.
😊❤️🤘 Best wishes from my side
3.
Agree, cool comment! And a wonderful vid.
Great video. Thanks for the tips 👏
Honestly this melody is so symmetrical (the rhythm, the repeated note in the same spot, the skip step, then step skip the 2nd time). I wanted it to vary by the second repetition because that actually felt like the 3rd and 4th time I heard the same idea. Anyone else feel that?
It's a good melody for benginners, as well, a sign that the melody is good for making a lot of variations out of it. Also feel the same.
I guess this maybe also why lots of musicians/writers change the riff a bit on either the 3rd or 4th repetition for verses and such.
Excellent concept to keep in mind, and a challenging question making modern music. What is the most effective novelty/repetition ratio? There's also now infinite ways to create novelty outside of traditional composition. Modern listeners tend crave brute harmonic repetition more than anything. It tends to be aesthetics, dynamics and production that provide main the novelty + contrast. I think of a song like Smells Like Teen Spirit. Four chords the whole time except for the end of each chorus. Novelty doesn't come from the composition as much as it does from radical dynamic contrast and vocal expression.
Really interesting! To my ear, you went from 2, to 4, to 6, not 1-2-3. Your natural inclination to “pretend I already played one, so I’m starting on the second” demonstrates this, I think.
I don’t do it on purpose (as in thinking it’s a hard and fast rule, but I tend to follow rule of three for stanzas as well!
Really interesting idea. I’ve never thought about it like that before and it’s definitely something I’ll be implementing when I’m writing music from now on. Thanks for posting this.
This really comes down to the concept of form .perpetrated by the originals , namely the Sonata Allegro form. The secondary theme in the "exposition" became the beginning of song writing. It evolved into the AABA Form with the 3x repetition of the main theme evolved from the Sonata Allegro form: Exposition, development and recapitulation. The AABA became the song form.
Never seen your channel before. This "Rule of Three" idea is great. Having done it for years without knowing it, it's good to know both why, and how to do it better. One comment. I was having a little trouble keeping up with you. I slowed the video down to .75, and though just a tad too slow, I could follow more readily. See if you notice the difference. Thanks for the tip!
When studying Beethoven and Mahler I discovered that they both do these two things. First, the introduce a theme in pieces. They give you just bits in various instrumentation of the thee themes then at that golden moment the whole theme is played. They mess with your mind is if teasing you and creating great anticipation that many times you didn't even see coming. Then when it happens your brain has a great sense of satisfaction and maybe even wonderment. Here the second, and this is crazy to me. Gustave Mahler will present a them early on in a work, maybe repeat it so it gets into your memory. Then later on bring it back but it is a bit twisted. So the question is, which one is the theme and which one is the variation. Psychologically, which one is the reality and which is the dream or the premonition or simply the bits of memory or scattered reminiscence of the actual theme or idea. The last movement of Beethoven Symphony 9 does this. So does Mahler Symphony 3.
When you regularly listen to music, you cant help but notice this anyway. I often found myself deleting the third repetition of a melody as it just feels off.
Solid advice tho
I hadn't consciously thought about this, but it explains why I like 12 bar loops. 4 bars + same 4 bars + variation
I was sponsored by a free guitar teaching company that sent me to a music school for composing for a bit and this is basically exactly what I learned. They got all mathematical with it which felt redundant but regardless it cured my “repeat this part like a church song would” tendency and helped my songwriting immensely
Here’s a thought: complex music that does not repeat has a totally different aspect when you consider multiple listens. Some songs take many listens to “remember” but I think they can stick even longer and more profoundly. This is the kind of music that you have to “get in to” by listening to it a lot though.
Well said, Nathan! Thank you… having actual listeners, viewers, readers etc.
is an amazing privilege that we shouldn't squander. Bore them, and they may
never return. Surprise them and respect their intelligence, and they just might
give you a rewarding career :)
I really am learning so much from your incredible videos, over the last few days I’ve watched around 20 of them. Incredible content. Once I’ve concreted the concepts I’ll be sure to buy some of your content to help me further.
I’m just a 34 year old dad who’s written music on and off since I was 16 and simply doing it for the love of music but I love the feeling of honing a craft
I love to use repetition in my sound healing ambient pieces to actually allow the brain to tune out and allow the body to relax and regenerate 😌
This sounded like a joke lol
I've heard this basic idea as "call-and-response" but this really fleshes out. Great video!
This is an excellent video -- solid tips from start to finish. You make a great point about intentionality when composing; too often I find myself guilty of starting a song with a progression, bass line and melody and then just strumming or arpeggiating a chord voicing to pad out the harmony without *actually thinking* how that's going to affect how the song is received, or if that arrangement is really conveying what the song is all about.
Worked this rule out 16 years ago when sampling Loop for 3 bars and extend the 3rd loop to the 4th bar add somthing new or take something away when looping those same for bars. Similar story for drums.
Great video... you must add that every rule has an exception. Also it is a very genre oriented. The rule of three is utilized in many art forms. I think that the most important thing is to get inspired and write your heart on a piece of paper. Having said that your video is fantastic and the analogy with a conversation and delivering a concept to someone is very correct in my opinion 🙏🏻 keep up your good work 🤘🏻
Listening to you on this topic the song that really sticks out in my mind is Pachebel's Canon in D! The main theme is repeated many many times! Yes variations are built on top giving the song interest! So it is not the actual repetition that makes any song boring! There are so many hit songs that repeat constantly throughout that prove that is wrong! It is not the repetition, as this is what makes the song what it is , it is the lack of addition on top of that idea that ultimately brings them down! Find any backing track, and do an improv with it, or even a simple boring drum beat as the foundation can be made to feel exciting even if it's repetitive!
As a game graphic programmer this concept is central to natural visuals. Repetitions of 3, 5 & 7 when texturing are critical to breaking up repetition. (Nintendo were king at this.) Same with set dressing & photography ❤️
I have a track that I think I did everything right on except for the lead because of over-repetition. Can't thank you enough for this video because that track means a lot to me and now I can fix it with these tips
This is very true, but I'd point out that the alteration to the idea to re-capture attention doesn't have to be a massive alteration. I have taught people basically the same sort of concept and they think it requires you to have a completely new riff every 8 bars.
Some compositions do that and succeed but it isn't mandatory. Little subtle changes or even a bit of production elements that washes through can be enough.
If you listen to a lot of 80s pop, when they repeated the chorus after the solo, on the second chorus repeat they often simply moved the entire motif up a whole step. No other change. That was usually enough to get the ear to reach back out to the piece.
There are a lot of ways to skin this cat.
What will you do with the cat once it's skinned? 🐆
@@johnmichaeladelman get a new cat, rinse it (don't wash it - cats hate baths), and repeat.
@@cw2544 Just remember not to repeat it more than three times
Btw you can try this: make a little loop. Then add effects to it like delay and reverb or oneshot samples. If you listen to the loop with something changing, even if it's jsut tiny tiny changes like a underlying slow lfo, it makes the loop more listenable but if there is no change you quickly tune it out.
Got some simple Korg Volcas and I notice this all the time as they only have a 16 step sequencer. It gets old very quick unless you add in/change or remove something. Even if it's just another instrument or me humming a tune it makes it so much more listenable. If I leave it alone for just a few loops, I don't wanna hear it no more and it starts to really bother me.
I have a similar rule, called the rule of 16. If something it good, I repeat it a minimum of 16 times.
❤
I dont think this was is the similar rule you think it is. He literally says dont repeat it more than 3 times.. thats the point.
@@buckleyprintco I better whack it up to 24 just to be on the safe side then.
@@xuxuang8574are you single?
My brain tells me something similar, 1 pattern for 1 track. Call it the loopception technique ❤
Yes thank you! You have to make music with intention. Thank you for saying that!
Micro arrangement and macro arrangement
I think I've applied the "rule of three" in my composing all my life without thinking about it. I hate redundancy. I've composed piano music since childhood and learned all I know of compositional structure by listening to great music, of many genres. For example, the way I've structured one of these pieces, it starts with a theme, or melody line, played just once. Then come a series of segments, each one leading into the other like chapters in a book. The last of those segments takes me right back to the melody line I started with, right before the piece ends. This kind of structure leaves the listener a sense of having gone "full circle".
I've composed material from baroque to jazz, structured in various ways. Whatever the genre, I strive for chord changes and details that surprise the ear. I don't like my music to be too predictable... which is why it kinda sucks for jamming though. Because those surprises can throw off someone trying to jam, who's not familiar with the music.
The right way to produce music. Being good at this kind of thing makes you even better if you really want to produce something for "jamming".
This video came to my feed, exactly when I was background thinking:”May be using same very beautifull progression in the album twice is “too much good”.
So I got to change it so that it the second time is s sort of “distant echo of something you heard before, but not repetition.”
Thanks for good essay!
Queen exploited this psycho-acoustic phenomenon to great success early in their songwriting. But, I think they would have called it 'the rule of 2', in that they intentionally changed the chordal/voicing riff of the end of the verses - sometimes every verse. Great examples of this are found in "Killer Queen", "Great King Rat", and "Prophet's Song". It's a thing that makes the ear listen - to take note (no pun intended). Alas, there are some less aural-integral persons who, sadly, cannot sense the change at all. Thanks, Nathan. You're helping a lot of people understand the complexities of music - way beyond chords and meters. I hope they can appreciate it.
Queen are way out of reach for any mortal pop music composer. So many out-the-box thinking and ideas in their catalog.
It's not just Queen. This practice of introducing an idea, and following it with a slight variation of it, is about as old as... well, as old as humanity itself.
For an old, obvious example: Beethoven's "Ode to joy" theme.
Thanks so much. You have pointed out what is part of every day, not just in music, but in everything. Because it is so ingrained it becomes invisible. Making this rule visible with the explaination is a fantastic help; not just for music but for each part of life. That may sound over the top, but I believe it. Thanks for showing this to me/us.
i noticed this in hardstyle / techno ish songs, they have great arrangments, i remember one idea from one song or two at most, but the same idea, on focusing, was never repeated, it usually keeps evolving
Whats crazy to me, is i feel like i was applying this naturally without knowing. Going to be much more efficient with it now that ive heard it and become fully aware of it. Thank you !
Solid video! Rule of 3 is certainly a thing, and subverting it in one way or another is an art unto itself 🤘
I wanted to let you know that I found this video to be incredibly informative. It’s one thing to try and help people understand in a context where they say “Yeah. I get it” …. But to create an intriguing piece of vital information that RESONATES with a human is a complete other. Considering your proclaimed passion for music and making GOOD music, specifically, this is genuinely felt throughout the vibe in this video and to see genuine love and adoration for the vibrations in which change molecules & atoms within humans, is truly amazing. So… Thank you. 🙏🏼
So the Rule of 3 is actually the Rule of 2. 😂
It seems rule of 3 to be safe, but rule of 2 to be really safe
Okay lol
it depends of the style. To reach a trance, you need to exploit repetition. Whether it's with dub, techno, any minimalist musical genre that's based on repetition. You bring variations in the timbre and textural content but not melodic, that's what the concept of a drone is. And often, the variations are subtle and happen over long periods of time. I get what you're saying though, sometimes, just a simple inversion on the 3 bar can change a lot.
Pretty sure I specifically mentioned in the video there are genres that break this
I call it triviality to my students. It's interesting to finally see someone else addressing this. People tend to not being all too considerate about it. Which is a shame because as of now more and more people are getting used to it and thinking that this is the way to do it, making music.
Very frustrating sometimes 😂
I now realize that I've been doing this naturally, but never really thought about it as a subject. Neat! When I come up with a passage, I only play that way once or twice, but then I change things up, and it doesn't lose its interest.
If your wife doesn’t like your song after several times (10,50 doesn’t matter) it means you’ve made bad song, and nothing else. As VFX artist I’ve been working with tons of songs and good ones will always sound pleasant to you even torn in pieces and played by chunks thousands of times back and forth. And actually this is the most perfect way to check your music for quality. Listener might no longer be excited with the same song but he will never dislike it if it’s good. If you’re tired with song played 10+ times in a row - it’s mediocre song. Just like that.
When it is repeated at a different timeframe as a bgm in a movie it can be played in a different octave or using a different tonal instrumental which helps to reinforce a particular mood which the listener can relate to
Avicii - Levels doesn't agree with you
As I said - plenty of examples that don't follow this. People seem to miss that I said that 🤷♂️
@@NathanJamesLarsenHe Just kidding,don‘t mind it.Levels is another Level😂
Avicii adds variation in other ways such as evolving the sound design of his synths or changing up the percussion. This method can be applied to more than just melodies. Long story short, add variation in some way to keep it from getting boring.
hi Nathan, this is the exact information I needed at this exact moment. thanks
If only Modern Day Artists would use the Rule of 3. Every single song on the radio today......is the same 4 chords over and over and over and over again. My family makes fun of todays music in the car....we sing the bass notes the whole song until someone says STOOOP! Your ruining the song! - Good times....good times!
I’m wondering what arrangement rules are used for like, 9 minute songs in the club in the 90s? Or just classic house in general lol
@@Bittamin yeah exactly! I’m having a hard time applying this theory in my head for house music
@@Bittamin Or Rap music.....this rule definitely doesn't apply to Rap music. It's just a loop.....for 3 minutes straight. Talk about brain dead.
Chords aren’t a melodic idea though. You can say the same about drumbeats -they repeat 100x in a song. He’s talking purely about melody here - the stuff that gets in your head. The lead. Background stuff doesn’t even register in listeners minds
@@GabrielBacon the average listener for sure. I haven’t been able to listen to music for over a year without trying to guess every stem in the track. It’s a curse sometimes lol
Jesus loves yall and died for us! Jesus calls for all of us to repent!
No
What does this have to do with the video
I understood that You gotta have your listener truly engage throughout the entire song. In a way, he won't be able not even to make decisions until the song finishes.
A real neurological fact, very well described. We're always trying to find the line between the familiar & unexpected, comforting & disconcerting aren't we...
My mind made The 3rd repetition come in hard with a phat counter melody riff and chonky rhythm :)
Great video! This reminds me of another rule of three that I’ve heard that applies to music, poetry, comedy, etc. For instance, Lucy In The Sky, the chorus line happens three times per (with stacking harmonies on the third time). 4 times sounds like too many, 2 doesn’t feel like enough. Interesting to see that 3 is sometimes perfect but sometimes where people lose interest.
I've been writing melodic metal for over 15 years. I agree I do the same process.
Another good variation of this concept is idea, variation of idea, original idea repeated, and then do something different to finish the whole phrase.
thank you for identifying how our brains respond to music. I want to make music for a response and sensory experience, but too many videos overlook the actual experience when making certain choices
As a designer and a musician, this is a very useful rule and it is so old you can see it at Macchu Picchu.
I didn't really get rid of the piano after you played it three times, I actually enjoyed it. Mabye my brains a little slow though, because when u said we should rememeber after 2 plays I only remembered the first note
A motif and setting a groove. It was instilled in me by my teacher, set the expectation meet the expectation subvert the expectation.
The rule of three pops up in so many places, but relies on that same instinctive mental anticipation and attention people have. The first time I was introduced to this was in martial arts. Works there, too.
I've basically been doing this but didnt know what it's called that's cool to know. I love adding layers maintaining the same sound but different enough to make it interesting it's that element of mystery not letting the listener know what's coming next
AABA...a classic and common structuring that well balances the need for repetition and variation.
I love how those those backlight create a rim light on your shirt..