I’ve used the last overhand on a bight to clip back to my belay loop so the falling climber’s weight is taken at my waist rather than higher up, making it easier to control. If clipped this way, do you think it would still be easy enough to still clip this bight to the anchor, then unclip it from the belay loop, and escape the Kiwi?
Question about the rope spacing between climbers and how to divide the rope. It looks like you were giving all of the rescue rope to one person. What if that is the one person who falls into the crevasse, then you don't have any extra rope at all. How about dividing the rope between the two end people?
johngo6283 That is a great question and one that guides argue over all the time. Generally speaking, it's best if each person on the end has rescue rope. However, in reality, sometimes there's not enough rope to go around so you have to decide who is most likely NOT to fall in and give the rope to them. When guiding, the clients are generally incapable of rescue so the guide carries the rescue rope. Sometimes I bring an extra 30m rescue rope so there's plenty of rope to go around. I use the Petzl RAD System in Peru and Canada pretty much all the time.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 thanks for your prompt and detailed answer. I think the videos you are putting out are some of the most quality climbing instruction on UA-cam. Good to know that guides argue about this just like me and my friends. I handle it pretty much the same way as you, if one person is much more experienced than the other people on the routine, they carry all the rope. If people are roughly equal he experienced, or at least you can have two people on the ends that know what they're doing, then they share the extra rope.
Great video! I think the spacing guidelines of 12 - 15 meters (40 - 50 feet) is really important. I've noticed parties roped really close together which greatly decreases reaction time if someone falls in! I strongly believe that if you have climbers of equal ability or have knowledge of hauling systems (which is a really good idea!), then each end person should have some extra rope since you never really know who might fall in. (This would be less important if you have multiple rope teams as another team should be able to perform or help in a rescue.) I know that the drop loop method is preferred by many guides, but I prefer to drop an end of the rope to the fallen climber (if the rope he fell on is buried in the lip of the crevasse which will likely be the case) and set up a 3:1/z-drag system that requires much less rope. (A 3:1 can also easily be turned into a 5:1 if needed.) Even with a 50m rope, a three person team could be 15m apart and each end person would have 10m of spare rope to work with which should be plenty for a 3:1/5:1 system. A couple of other points: tieing knots in the rope is a good way to help an arrester hold a crevasse fall (especially important on a two person rope team), but that needs be weighed against the option of being able to put in running belays which obviously can't be done with knots in the rope! I also discourage using the sternum strap on the backpack -- one less thing to remember if you take your pack off when hanging on the rope. (I always have my pack connected to the rope so I can take it off and let it hang.) Thanks for the discussion and sharing of ideas.
SIET, somewhat related question: If you are only climbing on moderate or low angle glaciers, and not doing any lead climbing, what are your thoughts on using a static rope as the main connection between climbers? I have heard some Denali guides use static group for this purpose, and I'm curious what are your thoughts.
johngo6283 Yeah, lots of guides do that on glaciers and testing suggests that the overall effectiveness for holding a fall (arresting) is much better. The person falling in the crack usually falls way less due to lass rope stretch.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Plus, a static rope offers way more ME when hauling than a dynamic rope. The stretch factor of dynamic rope makes it pretty inefficient for hauling operations.
With 4 climbers, is it more efficient to travel in 2 teams of 2 per rope, leaving one team independent of the other to aid in rescue if needed, while simultaneously eliminating a falling climber from exposing all climbers to a load? thoughts?
Hmm... For 3 person team, I'd do 40m rope. 10m between the climbers, and then each person at the end has 10m to do the rescue with. You don't have to be able to reach the fallen climber with a loop to haul them up - use a prussik and a pulley to pull the rope that goes to the fallen climber. This also works if the fallen climber is unconscious and can't receive a loop.
What are your thoughts about clipping into the two tie-in points on the harness vs the belay loop. I realize that clipping into the belay loop is the common practice these days, but I like having the 'biners closer to my body and reduce the dangle factor. I also noticed that the BD Alpine Bod harness is still made without a belay loop so if you're going to attach to the rope with 'biners, you pretty much have to clip into the tie-in points.
Good question. I generally clip into my belay loop because I don't like the thought of my carabiner being triaxialy loaded by the tie in points. With that being said, it seems very unlikely that the forces that a falling climber would experience in a crevasse fall would be high enough to break a carabiner, though it's hard to say. If a triaxialy loaded carabiner breaks at around 6-7Kn, and the climber experiences 4-5kn in the fall, that doesn't leave much margin. ENSA did some tests and found that the person catching the fall receives less than 2kn (170daN). However, the falling climber with a big pack would feel a much greater force and I don't have those numbers (the numbers above are just an educated guess). Here's that vid for reference: ua-cam.com/video/IgNR-VZMwHo/v-deo.html So, what I usually do to keep the knot high is tie in with a small overhand bight. And on benign glaciers I'll clip the strands to my sternum strap, though that can make self arresting quite difficult.
Perhaps to test if a falling climber would generate enough forces to break the biner if clipped into tie-in points instead of belay loop, we tag our friend @howNOT2 Would you please test this? 😁
Dynamic because it is also your climbing rope. The kiwi coil is the best way (imo), if you can't manage a crevasse rescue as part of a two-person rope you are no safer with three or four-person ropes. The "if you want to learn more " refers to learning practically how to make a Z + C pulley system.
@@souleymanediarra5565 Why do you say you're no safer with three person rope teams? It's much easier to self arrest the larger your rope team, you have more gear in case of any droppage or really bad quality snow for anchors, and rescues are faster and easier to perform assuming everyone is competent. The only safety advantage a two person rope team has is speed, which is something to consider depending on the objective.
Clear and to the point. Great video 👍
I’ve used the last overhand on a bight to clip back to my belay loop so the falling climber’s weight is taken at my waist rather than higher up, making it easier to control. If clipped this way, do you think it would still be easy enough to still clip this bight to the anchor, then unclip it from the belay loop, and escape the Kiwi?
Yeah, that works fine and I usually find that it works best when the bight isn't super small.
Question about the rope spacing between climbers and how to divide the rope. It looks like you were giving all of the rescue rope to one person. What if that is the one person who falls into the crevasse, then you don't have any extra rope at all. How about dividing the rope between the two end people?
johngo6283 That is a great question and one that guides argue over all the time. Generally speaking, it's best if each person on the end has rescue rope. However, in reality, sometimes there's not enough rope to go around so you have to decide who is most likely NOT to fall in and give the rope to them. When guiding, the clients are generally incapable of rescue so the guide carries the rescue rope. Sometimes I bring an extra 30m rescue rope so there's plenty of rope to go around. I use the Petzl RAD System in Peru and Canada pretty much all the time.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 thanks for your prompt and detailed answer. I think the videos you are putting out are some of the most quality climbing instruction on UA-cam. Good to know that guides argue about this just like me and my friends. I handle it pretty much the same way as you, if one person is much more experienced than the other people on the routine, they carry all the rope. If people are roughly equal he experienced, or at least you can have two people on the ends that know what they're doing, then they share the extra rope.
johngo6283 thanks!
Great video! I think the spacing guidelines of 12 - 15 meters (40 - 50 feet) is really important. I've noticed parties roped really close together which greatly decreases reaction time if someone falls in! I strongly believe that if you have climbers of equal ability or have knowledge of hauling systems (which is a really good idea!), then each end person should have some extra rope since you never really know who might fall in. (This would be less important if you have multiple rope teams as another team should be able to perform or help in a rescue.) I know that the drop loop method is preferred by many guides, but I prefer to drop an end of the rope to the fallen climber (if the rope he fell on is buried in the lip of the crevasse which will likely be the case) and set up a 3:1/z-drag system that requires much less rope. (A 3:1 can also easily be turned into a 5:1 if needed.) Even with a 50m rope, a three person team could be 15m apart and each end person would have 10m of spare rope to work with which should be plenty for a 3:1/5:1 system. A couple of other points: tieing knots in the rope is a good way to help an arrester hold a crevasse fall (especially important on a two person rope team), but that needs be weighed against the option of being able to put in running belays which obviously can't be done with knots in the rope! I also discourage using the sternum strap on the backpack -- one less thing to remember if you take your pack off when hanging on the rope. (I always have my pack connected to the rope so I can take it off and let it hang.) Thanks for the discussion and sharing of ideas.
SIET, somewhat related question: If you are only climbing on moderate or low angle glaciers, and not doing any lead climbing, what are your thoughts on using a static rope as the main connection between climbers? I have heard some Denali guides use static group for this purpose, and I'm curious what are your thoughts.
johngo6283 Yeah, lots of guides do that on glaciers and testing suggests that the overall effectiveness for holding a fall (arresting) is much better. The person falling in the crack usually falls way less due to lass rope stretch.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Plus, a static rope offers way more ME when hauling than a dynamic rope. The stretch factor of dynamic rope makes it pretty inefficient for hauling operations.
With 4 climbers, is it more efficient to travel in 2 teams of 2 per rope, leaving one team independent of the other to aid in rescue if needed, while simultaneously eliminating a falling climber from exposing all climbers to a load? thoughts?
See 2:06 depending on conditions a single climber might not be able to arrest a fall. a four person rope team would be favorable
Hmm... For 3 person team, I'd do 40m rope. 10m between the climbers, and then each person at the end has 10m to do the rescue with. You don't have to be able to reach the fallen climber with a loop to haul them up - use a prussik and a pulley to pull the rope that goes to the fallen climber. This also works if the fallen climber is unconscious and can't receive a loop.
Grato pelo vídeo!
Great video!! You guys are awesome 💪 thnx for sharing
Thanks Aaron! Glad someone is still watching alpine related vids these days!
What are your thoughts about clipping into the two tie-in points on the harness vs the belay loop. I realize that clipping into the belay loop is the common practice these days, but I like having the 'biners closer to my body and reduce the dangle factor. I also noticed that the BD Alpine Bod harness is still made without a belay loop so if you're going to attach to the rope with 'biners, you pretty much have to clip into the tie-in points.
Good question. I generally clip into my belay loop because I don't like the thought of my carabiner being triaxialy loaded by the tie in points. With that being said, it seems very unlikely that the forces that a falling climber would experience in a crevasse fall would be high enough to break a carabiner, though it's hard to say. If a triaxialy loaded carabiner breaks at around 6-7Kn, and the climber experiences 4-5kn in the fall, that doesn't leave much margin. ENSA did some tests and found that the person catching the fall receives less than 2kn (170daN). However, the falling climber with a big pack would feel a much greater force and I don't have those numbers (the numbers above are just an educated guess).
Here's that vid for reference: ua-cam.com/video/IgNR-VZMwHo/v-deo.html
So, what I usually do to keep the knot high is tie in with a small overhand bight. And on benign glaciers I'll clip the strands to my sternum strap, though that can make self arresting quite difficult.
Perhaps to test if a falling climber would generate enough forces to break the biner if clipped into tie-in points instead of belay loop, we tag our friend @howNOT2
Would you please test this? 😁
great
These guys are likeable
What kind of rope should be used for rescue on glacier travel, static or dynamic?
Dynamic because it is also your climbing rope. The kiwi coil is the best way (imo), if you can't manage a crevasse rescue as part of a two-person rope you are no safer with three or four-person ropes. The "if you want to learn more " refers to learning practically how to make a Z + C pulley system.
@@souleymanediarra5565 Why do you say you're no safer with three person rope teams? It's much easier to self arrest the larger your rope team, you have more gear in case of any droppage or really bad quality snow for anchors, and rescues are faster and easier to perform assuming everyone is competent. The only safety advantage a two person rope team has is speed, which is something to consider depending on the objective.
how about if the guy need to pee