I don't like it when videos like these are posted with titles like "Atheism demolished". I'm fairly certain that Mr. Keller did not think that he had defeated all of Atheism when he made this sermon, and to use such a title only puts Atheists on the defensive and makes them think that we're their enemy. Perhaps it would be better if the poster chose a more moderate title in the future. (I see this type of thing from both sides btw, not just Christians.)
I have read several of Dr. Keller's books and listened to dozens of his sermons in person and online. The title of this video is rooted in trying to prove someone wrong. I believe a Christian apologist worth his weight in salt would tell you that proving someone wrong is almost never productive in winning hearts for Jesus. This is, ultimately, the mission of Tim Keller's entire professional life. Reducing his work to finger pointing at other ideologies as ""wrong"" does not give his life's work the credit it deserves.
i remember listening to this message years ago and thinking, that had like nothing to do with the video title 😀 it wasn't the message i was expecting, but even better.
Thank you for posting this awesome talk. But, as others have said, I hope you change the title. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people with questions about God who chose not to listen to this amazing discussion just because they were offended by the title.
Tim Keller Slammed Dunk, hit a home run with bases loaded and threw the final TD w/ no seconds left on the clock.(enough on my sport metaphor). Great message.
Tim Keller is a really good teacher. He is my go to right now for clarification on many topics. Around 52:00 he talks about people making the claim “it must be true for me”, and Keller rebukes that to some degree. There is a problem with this. It is true that the individual makes choices and more importantly perceives reality and has a unique individual experience of reality, and God. This is a very critical fact that many Christian preachers overlook or don’t understand. There is no perception without the individual, the individual being primary. God must have intended this or it would not be.
i dont think this is meant to target atheists. please retitle the video appropriately. this is not helping to spread the Word. Really great message for believers but wrong target as falsely suggested by the title.
I am sure the content is good and convincing. The title however is just begging for abuse and trolling. I am sure Tim Keller would never say such a thing himself. By adding a title like this you are just inviting people that will have no interest in engaging in a reasonable debate or discussion. Most reasonable atheists would just avoid the stupidity that such a title suggests.
+iSolarthe2nd "reasonable atheist" Is that not an oxymoron? just kidding, simmer down. One must assume then (I do) that atheists and other non-believers who comment on these kinds of videos are, in fact, unreasonable. What is the point of making negative comments towards believers, except to start a fight, (unless they are reaching out for help). I try to make it a point to pray for commenting non-believers.
I agree with everything you said lol except the fact that atheists wouldn't come here because of the title. trust me I've debated atheists and stuff with this title is exactly what they watch
Love the presentation. Love Dr. Keller. I am so thankful for his contribution to the Kingdom and the world before God brought him to glory. But if Calvinism is true, does it really make sense for us to understand and employ allllllllllllll of this in order to evangelize? It seems to me that evangelizing is in fact sharing the Gospel with free creatures who can in fact reject OR accept it and be saved.
In the Indian Ocean Tsunami, many people in several seaside towns lost their loved ones, their homes, and their belongings. In this dreary aftermath, many competing Christian missionaries reached out to these people with the offer of food and clothes from their trucks provided the recipient and her/his family converted to their specific denomination of Christianity. This is the essence of Christianity today: so-called moral Christians spending an inordinate amount of their time engaging in a kind of cheap quid pro quo evangelizing than in trying to help a fellow human being in a time of need and desperation.
there are "wooden " gospel tools/tracts, but you can make it relate to a person by HOW one presents it. A tract works best when someone talks it through a relationship
Repackaging the gospel and presenting it to atheists is not going to convert us. The reason we are atheists is simply that theists have not met their burden of proof for their claims. Show us evidence and we will believe your claims. Until then we will dismiss them, its the only reasonable option, if we just take the claims on faith that would be gullibility.
Yes I listened to the whole thing. He's concerned that Christians are not evangelizing effectively but his answer fails to grasp why people don't believe the claims in the bible. If his god existed atheists would be more than happy to acknowledge that, as it stands now he's made many assertions and provided no evidence.
Ian G you should try reading his book, "Reason for God - Belief in an age of skepticism". I'll be honest, I get through books faster when I listen to the audio versions while I'm at work. He Makes makes some compelling rational, philosophical scientific, and logical arguments. Even for an atheist or nonbeliever, there are some refreshing points he makes AGAINST "traditional religious conservatives". He paints a fair picture of the world as having very polarized views, equally wrong, Each side doing disservice to its own view point.
Look at how you phrased this: "He Makes makes some compelling rational, philosophical scientific, and logical arguments" Can you think of anything else that exists that you have to speak of in terms like that? When we talk about things that are real we simply talk about them, there is no need for rational, philosophical, scientific, and logical arguments when I tell you about my wife, kids or my cat. When a friend comes over they would be able to meet all of them. Their existence is plainly obvious to any, and if there was ever a question, like maybe an old friend that found it hard to believe that I actually had kids I could simply introduce them, or show them a picture. Now contrast that with the way religious people speak about the various gods from around the world. Suddenly the conversation turns to sweeping grand arguments and philosophical pondering, I'm told that I must have "faith" or I must "seek honestly" and the truth will be revealed to me. Of course each religious person is confident that my journey will end with their particular god or gods. I have a feeling Tim Keller would not be convinced when a muslim uses the exact same arguments he does but arrives at a completely different god. Tim might point to Jesus being unique among the worlds religions but that's like saying that "The Matrix" is unique among the worlds movies, of course it's unique, that does not make it special or true, just unique. If Tim had been raised in India with devout Hindu parents it's very likely that he would be Hindu and writing books that argue for the existence of the Hindu gods. And if you had been born there too you might be telling me to read those books and hoping that I will be open to learning the "truth" Ask yourself this, if there were compelling evidence for the existence of the Christian god "Yahweh" wouldn't Tim Keller (and every other Christian writer) be presenting that to us instead of having to resort to the same arguments that the other religions use for their own gods? I'm sorry but from the outside it looks like believers of all types are grasping at straws trying to argue something into existence that is probably not there. An actual god who was interested in people knowing it existed would not have any trouble providing compelling evidence for it's existence, to fail to do so would be it's fault, not mine.
"The Supremacy of Christ in the Post-Modern World" given December 2006 at the Desiring God National Conference. This is a link to the original sermon for you to download in video and audio for free. www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-supremacy-of-christ-and-the-gospel-in-a-postmodern-world
This is a great sermon, for believers. It isn't a theological or apologetic discussion for non-believers. This isn't helpful, for believers or non-believers. Kinda feel like you're blunting your ministry here with click-bait.
the awesome, terrifying God of the universe decided to show us love in a non -terrifying way,..by coming to us in a way we could understand, as Jesus. this righteous, pure God decided to reconcile his tainted , sin soaked creation -that would have to necessarily disintegrate like a germ in the sunlight if it were to be in His presence- by accepting the blood sacrifice of His own Son in our place, so that we now covered in His blood, can approach the throne boldly and call Him friend. i heard someone explain that we cling to this sphere of life around us like the unborn child, warm and safe and not knowing what the world beyond is like. yet the world beyond is awaiting and amazing, with caring hands to hold us and eyes looking down in love. maybe why Jesus says we must be 'born again'
This is in response to what Keller said that Jesus said to the disciples in the video. 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. -Mark 9:28-29- PRAYER and FASTING not just prayer. It has to be BOTH.
+Toni Thompson be sure you check your manuscript evidence. Many modern readings of the best and oldest manuscripts do not include the last two words ( "and fasting") which could be later additions. I like the two together, "prayer and fasting," but many see it as truer to the text to not include the fasting part.
John Bosquet-Morra, I've only read this from the King James Version 1611 edition, If that is considered modern reading material to you, then I'm at a lost. However, if there be older variations I need to be aware of, by all means list them. I like the combination of both fasting and praying as well, but whether I like it or not, that is what is written in the bible. At least the one I've been reading the KJV. Either way I put my trust in the Holy Spirit to guide me in my reading, not man. Thank you for the heads up just the same.
the problem isn't that some of the people who labeled themselves as Christians did terrible things, plenty of non-religious people have done terrible things the real problem is that the Bible advocates beating slaves, stoning an unruly child, not allowing women to preach or hold authority over a man the very Gospel itself is the problem, not just the way that it has been delivered the whole concept of us being condemned for the misdeeds of our ancestors (for in the first Adam we all die) is problematic and not a good message for building a healthy, happy, cooperative, flourishing community
The Gospel is not the problem. Gospel literally means "good news" and it was delivered to us by Jesus. And the good news the gospel brought is that you don't beat slaves anymore, you don't stone unruly children anymore and that male and female relationships are set right. It is not really because of the misdeeds of our ancestors why we were condemned. It is free will that got us into trouble. Adam and Eve just did the inevitable. Without free will, we would be slaves and robots. If God hadn't given us free will, then we would complain about that. Now we have free will, and complain about that too. For free will to really play out in full scale, there had to be a choice between good and evil. Otherwise it is not really free will if there are still restrictions. And once you have a full scope of choice, it is inevitable that someone somewhere will choose the bad. And again the Gospel is not the problem. The Gospel is that God in the body of Jesus came and fixed the broken relationship between God and man. I am not dead in Adam anymore, I am alive through Jesus Christ. It's a very good basis for building a happy community.
I imagine that most of the comments on here are from people who didn't get past the (badly chosen) title of this UA-cam video. Classic Internet-assembled education! We are the future! LOL
Ian G, is not atheism another exchange of beliefs based on negative faith (doubt)? The affirmation of a negative in absolute terms is self defeating. Not trying to throw shade but I believe faith does drive both worlds views.
Negative faith now? Come on man. Faith is belief without evidence. You can do better than that. Go trick a child, that's what keeps christianity going. There are adults here, you can't float that crap.
Go look up "argument from ignorance". Why are you so uncomfortable with not knowing something, and accepting one mythical explanation? The truth is we don't know how existence came about, but I doubt it was conjured up by a magic-man in the sky, let alone the particular one you happen to believe in.
What we need more of is profit based preachers' input on social issues. Whatever most positively affects their bottom line, that's what evangelists will preach. Jesus had a name for these people, and it wasn't flattering!
+Zero Gullibility If you are referring to the preachers who say "come to Jesus and He'll give fix your health, finances, relationships, and give you a puppy" then I agree with you. If you are lumping Tim Keller in with these health and wealth charlatans then it is clear that you have not heard much of Him and are simply one who dismisses all things Christian so you can continue life without having to really face life's most crucial question: What do I do with God's Son whom He gave as atonement for sin? There is no forgiveness apart from Jesus.
+BrotherofWord Delusions are not a sign of intelligence, but of ignorance. An intelligent person who believes in ghosts and magic is proclaiming such "faith" at the risk of ridicule. You get no extra points for God delusions when among intellectuals. Got God? Hide it from educated adults, because this little detail could be deal breaker. I embrace my mortality and have no use for alternative realities (aka delusions). The time for coddling religious nonsense has passed.
Zero Gullibility If death were as you imagine it then you can indeed be fearless. But it is not. If you live your entire life choosing "not God" over God, then death is the natural and eternal continuation of this (ie you get "not God" forever. At first blush this sounds great to you until you consider that God is the source of all the good things you have ever enjoyed: food, water, air, comfort, rest, friendship, love, you name it. If it's good, it comes to you as a reflection of God's goodness. But instead of thanking Him and honoring Him you despise the source of the goodness yet hypocritically love the goodness. When you die and God removes Himself from you forever, all good is removed from you as well. The absence of all good is ultimate bad. That's what Hell is. Forever thirsting, never drinking. Forever hungering, never being filled. Smothering, never breathing. Wanting love, getting only maddening solitude and regret. No rest. No comfort. And for what? So you can be numbered among the intellectual. How foolish is this 'wisdom"! God loves you and proved it by sparing not His Son to take death (separation from God) for us. Thank Him and love Him for it. Trust Him while you yet breathe.
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who - in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ - cannot hear the music of the spheres.”-Albert Einstein.
Demolish atheism, alas, he does not. Nor does he even try. Keller talks about the postmodern problem of interpretation but not the problem of authority. How to you deal with the fundamental undermining of Biblical truth brought about by close scrutiny of the text itself? His extension of the elephant analogy to undermine relativism does not work, because people who use it do not believe the “whole elephant” (absolute truth) is something they themselves know. The analogy does, however, take for granted that a whole elephant exists-that might be a good place to start from.
This video is directed at believers and giving direction on how to witness to people...giving it the clickbait title is pretty silly. Anything for channel views I guess.
Eternity With Christ ti would be nice if in fact there is a god,,,which seems not to be the case. All facts indicates that men created God at his own image, 1st and 2nd world wars proved that if there's a God he actually doesn't seem to care about us. Now thinking about the millions of ppl that dies in poverty, hungry and miserable ...everyday hundreds of new born babies with terrible diseases, general world wide natural catastrophes killing thousands of innocent ppl....the list is way too huge...so if there's a God...he's a bastard without any heart or he is a tremendous imbecile, useless and incompetent. All the diseases we get rid of along the last 6 hundreds years, was product of the strive and brilliant efforts of the human race, scientists who dedicated their life to make this crazy insane world better... no, we don't need your God, your religion and your false sense of happiness. We need more education, more schools ...and to get rid for once and for all of those delusional extremists fanatical religious groups.
Jeffrey Youngblood no, I'm talking about the thousands of innocent ppl who were tortured, burned and murdered in name of the God. There was a time when religious ppl had the power over our society,,..that time is called Dark Ages. No thank you, we are way better without religion, and specifically better without any man made God.
Eternity With Christ I'm not being disrespectful...I'm logical. If you want to believe in some powerful being that watches all your moves, thoughts and actions...yet it's totally invisible, I'm ok with that! Hell, I'm even ok if want to believe in fairy tales and Disneyland. It's your right! That what means to live in USA!!! Now...when those religious groups comes shouting and pointing to my face that l need to repent, accept your savior....or else I'll gonna die and burn in hell....that's where I can't stand and just watch such stupid hypocrisy....even worse when they think they have the right to teach their stupid fake bible study in our schools !! If you believe in a God...keep to yourself, that's it!
What about the evidence presented to people in the Bible? Talking burning bushes, being visited by angels, visions? We're not anymore skeptical than Joseph or Paul before they had a supernatural experience.
Wayne Hampson "evidence"? In quotes? Are you trying to be sarcastic? Right now there is no evidence at all, so let's start with something small. Have him end all childhood pain and disease forever. If he can't do that have him fly up his holy ass and disappear. We don't need him.
+LasergunExtreme the Bible is true and there are biblical scholars working diligently proving that the statements are true, but to you ,your Volareity, shows me it is a waste time because it's to high for your illogical though.
+lobsterbobable " Have him end all childhood pain and disease forever. " Atheists think God is something to wield, a tool to use, and they deny it as they do it. If God will not do as I want ( if I cannot command God) then He cannot exist. They're half right, God cannot exist in the atheist mind because the atheist ego will not tolerate His presence. I was atheist for 40 yrs, I did exactly the same thing, said the same stupid crap as every other atheist said and say today, the narrative doesn't change when ego feeds the words to the mouth. "end all childhood pain and disease" The atheist mind cannot grasp nuances, the distinction between pain and suffering is a classic. Pain is experienced in every life, suffering is an option. Eliminating all pain violates free will.
In terms of proof of God's existence, there is none. Unless you consider proof to be the same as that relied upon by a jury in a court of law. That is to say, often the only one who knows factually who committed the murder is the murderer and the victim. The jury doesn't know. (Sometimes only the murderer knows). I consider the question of God's existence to be in this category. No one "knows" there is a God. Just as no one on the Jury "knows" who committed the murder. So we are left to make a decision based on the evidence (same as the Jury) as to whether or not God exists. So no matter which position you take, atheist, agnostic, or believer, they are all a matter of belief after weighing the evidence. You cannot know one way or the other. You can only have faith that, given the evidence, you have made the best choice. One thing we can be sure of though, everyone has a position which they choose. It is a fundamental question of human existence as to whether or not we exist with purpose, or if we are here by happenstance. Is there a God or is there no God? I've yet to meet a person who, when asked whether or not they believe in God, respond by saying, "What do you mean"?
The world, the creation around you, if they are not an accident, someone must have created it. I can't pass a multiple choice by accident (very unlikely), how could I have been accidentally just here out of nowhere?
Hello Again, Ian. I just re-read my comments, and I think I need to say that I meant no insult by calling aethism illogical. I am sure you are not dumb or illogical personally. (Place where I would say "God Bless" ordinarily.)
Please out of respect for Dr. Keller change the title. He was not an aggressive, atheist hater. He loved all of us and wished only to demolish ignorance
I don't think evangelism was in such a hard place in the past. It has nothing to do with inoculation. It has everything to do with comfort. The people who are most comfortable (in the west) are the people who are most removed from the message of Christ. "What do I need him for?". So the so called post modern man is just rich and is inoculated against prosperity preaching . OK don't do that.
"He"? "Him"? Anyone mind if I refer to God with the pronoun "it", or maybe "It"? Not to offend but can we remove this apparent inaccuracy from the start before considering the whole God issue. It seems to me that, any way you slice it, "He" makes an unwelcome or at least unhelpful statement, in a discussion of our beliefs about the source of life, living things, and our world.
Title should have been "Strawman atheism demolished" If he can't even take the time to learn what positions atheists actually hold then it's hard to have a meaningful dialogue. If any Christians are curious I would be happy to answer any questions as best I can about atheism.
***** Keller and most other apologists present atheists as if they are 100% certain that no gods or goddesses exist. No matter how many times they are corrected by us they still go right back to their next debate or lecture and repeat the same thing. It's very frustrating.
***** let me use an analogy if that's okay. Imagine that a stranger comes to you and says: "last night was crazy! An alien space ship appeared above my house and abducted me! They flew me out to Mars and I got to touch the Mars rover! Then they flew me back and dropped me off back at my house!" Do you believe this story told to you be a stranger? I'd imagine that you would be like me, you would be skeptical of the claims being made to you. But when the stranger sees that you are skeptical he goes around town and starts telling people: "Chad says that there are no aliens anywhere in the universe!" You would probably be a little frustrated since that's not actually your position. Not believing his claim does not then tie you to the much larger claim that "aliens don't exist!" So in the same way I'm skeptical of the specific claims that Keller makes. I'm *not* saying: "gods and goddesses do not exist" I'm saying: "Tim Keller hasn't convinced me that his claims are true" And no matter how many times atheists like me correct that and give the more nuanced position it seems to never alter the way apologists speak about us. So yeah... Frustrating :)
***** yes, practically speaking I would agree with you that for atheists if the question is just a loose "hey does X god exist?" the shorthand answer is "no" or "no, probably not" or "almost certainly not" depending on the god in question of course :) There is a great video that I often link people to that explains the "null hypothesis" I think it's only 13 minutes, want me to dig up the link for ya?
It seems now days people are doing almost anything to get more views on their videos. (if a something gets you to click their stuff then they might do ti) Plus, if someone's content is monetized, there's a motivation to make all kinds of content simply to make profit. (i don't know if this video is or not)
The idea of a God works only if the supernatural (ghosts and magic) are considered reasonable. Without such adjustments to the laws of physics, the concept of a God is idiotic. To those who say we require God for our sense of morals, I ask WHY? We have laws benefiting society. We are compelled to follow those laws. We also have an instinctive sense of self preservation. That instinct tells us that it is necessary for humans to get along. The golden rule is a logical thing and existed long before Biblical times. If you want others to treat you well, then you would have to treat them the same way. You need no Bible to know that. There are so many commandments Christians conveniently disobey (ignore), yet this seems to create no conflict at all. How is that? Adultery, greed, and other unbecoming things are practiced by almost all who profess to take the 10 commandments seriously. Speaking falsely against thy neighbor...Republican Congress breaks that commandment on a daily basis. Please stop pretending that your faith compels you to be a better person. If anything it gives you an excuse to do the opposite. Religious people have a monopoly on hypocrisy. That's a measurable fact. Don't give me fairy tales and threaten me with that nonsense to come true...after I die. I embrace my mortality, you fear yours. Not my problem.
+Zero Gullibility "The idea of a God works only if the supernatural (ghosts and magic) are considered reasonable." What's considered reasonable to you is totally based on your beliefs. "Without such adjustments to the laws of physics, the concept of a God is idiotic." God requires no change to the laws of physics BUT atheistic scientific beliefs about the universe have caused some atheistic scientists to look for a "new physics" to allow for these ludicrous beliefs. A "universe from nothing" ignores the backbone of science which is "cause and effect". Evolution has never once been observed, tested and verified which is the scientific method. It's atheistic science myths that are incompatible with modern science. "To those who say we require God for our sense of morals, I ask WHY?" God is moral but amazingly he is not the source of OUR morals. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Who enticed Eve to eat from the tree? The serpent did. Satan gave humanity the knowledge of good and evil, not God. It's not looked at by Christians (for obvious reasons) but it's what Genesis says. That nagging moral sense you have comes from the knowledge of good and evil and we are all born with it. Because we are all born with it God holds us accountable for good and evil. If you have any complaints then direct them to Satan. Meanwhile God holds you accountable for that knowledge so deal with it. "The golden rule is a logical thing and existed long before Biblical times. If you want others to treat you well, then you would have to treat them the same way. You need no Bible to know that." That's why God can hold someone who has never read the Bible accountable for their actions. Everyone knows good from evil. It comes with the human package. "There are so many commandments Christians conveniently disobey (ignore), yet this seems to create no conflict at all." It always creates conflict. "Adultery, greed, and other unbecoming things are practiced by almost all who profess to take the 10 commandments seriously. Speaking falsely against thy neighbor...Republican Congress breaks that commandment on a daily basis." Every day Christians fail to be Christlike. "Please stop pretending that your faith compels you to be a better person. If anything it gives you an excuse to do the opposite." Nobody needs an excuse to do bad but they always find one anyway. The excuse by definition is not the reason. The reason is sin. Jesus forgives sinners and then says, "sin no more". Many fall short of that command but I do see change in Christians who take those words to heart. I've seen it in my life as well. "Religious people have a monopoly on hypocrisy." Christians certainly have no monopoly on hypocrisy but the hypocrisy is greater in a Christian when they fall short. This is true. We are called to a higher calling and when we fall short the contrast is greater. "That's a measurable fact." It's not measurable, it's palpable. "Don't give me fairy tales and threaten me with that nonsense to come true...after I die. I embrace my mortality, you fear yours. Not my problem." While it's easy to see Christians when they fall short, don't forget the ones who don't. They don't get the attention they deserve. They give more money to strangers in need across the world than all the other peoples of the world combined, they dig wells and build schools in distant lands for people who couldn't care less about them and they help people in countries they can't even pronounce the name of all to give back to mankind and ask for nothing in return. That's a real Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. His example is the pinnacle of living a life worth living.
schlummieleinchen1 "The supernatural is for idiots" Which one of the gods told you that? "Enjoy your ghosts and your magic. We (thinkers) aren't dumb enough for such BS." So when you were thinking, what part of the brain did you use to access this empirical truth? I mean, how do you know there isn't a spirit realm?
+Robert Sparks Supernatural is like anything imaginary. It's not real. It's not natural. It's not there. If you claim there are ghosts and magic (a really outrageous claim), you need equally wild and crazy EVIDENCE, which you don't have. So stop embarrassing yourself. Only fellow-idiots think you're NOT one.
SynchroTotal "Supernatural is like anything imaginary. It's not real." And which one of the God's told you that? How do you know this incredible knowledge of what exists or not? Hint: You can't and don't know however you are just delusional enough to think you do. "If you claim there are ghosts and magic (a really outrageous claim), you need equally wild and crazy EVIDENCE, which you don't have." Do you actually think humans don't have a spiritual component? If so, why do you think that? Wouldn't the only evidence I would need for the spiritual realm is for you to be body and spirit? The Bible say humans are body and spirit and together we are a living soul. You don't think you have a spirit nature?
There is no "brand" of atheism that is logical. Proving a negtive is impossible here, and IMHO, that ends it. Agnostics are more intellectally honesy IMO, and even as a Christian, I can sympathize with their arguments. Oddly enough, many of their arguments are discussed in the Psalms and other parts of the Bible by various biblical characters. Famous atheist Christopher Hitchens used to go on about what a vengeful, horrid, murderous god the god of the Bible was, and then went on, almost humorously, to tell us He didn't exist! Other atheists play the same game, and defeat their own stance by doing so.
If I say that a given character in a given story is evil, cruel, etc., does not mean i believe that person to be real. It just means the the person, as seen in the story/book, contains those characteristics. Asserting that Hitch said those things about god is evidence that he believed he exists is a pretty ridiculous claim to make. Joffrey Baratheon is a vengeful, horrid, murderous person, but that does not mean Joffrey must be a real person.
If that's your opinion then why don't you have an issue with the fact that you can't prove your positive (God exists) either. Saying God does exist with no proof is just as bad as saying he doesn't exist with no proof (the bible doesn't count as proof) . It's a book that was written by man, so you can't site it as the word of God.
i've had conversations at great length about the evilness of Darth Vader, Voldamort and Game of Thrones characters. How on earth would you think that means for a second I think they're not fictional characters? Such a terrible argument...
More proof of the events in the Bible than ANY others in antiquity If you believe Plato existed, and i am sure you do, why not God given the overwhelmingly larger proof of the latter?
Keller doesn't demolish anything. In fact his message is muddled and indistinct. Sort of like a politician who says "We need to stand up for XXXXX!" but provides nothing concrete in terms of method. He also lost me as soon as he called me a racist for not living in the city. Thanks, Dr. Intellectualoid. Good luck preaching to your elitist friends. I'll stick with the simple gospel message of Jesus: "You must have the faith of a little child."
+Sophie Maele "message of Jesus: "You must have the faith of a little child."" Thats what I must BE, not what I should do. " I am sending you out among the wolves...." Is what I will do.
+Sophie Maele I have to wonder why your simple gospel is so hostile to Tim Keller. He is not everyone's cup of tea, but he is not "Dr. Intelectualoid preaching to ...elitist friends." He has contributed greatly to The Lord's Kingdom. Don't write him off so easily!
Christianity is purely a textual claim. Isn't it possible that at least some of the Bible isn't true and inspired? If the Bible is false or partly false, then everything falls apart. I encourage all Christians to read the Bible, without their God-glasses on, without presupposing it to be true, without giving it the benefit of the doubt. Aside: If Christians ever enter a Bible Quiz, please ask atheists to join your team, since they know the Bible better than you do.
how can you live in a (post)modern world if you believe in a thousands year old storyXD why is it so hard to live with the fact that there most likely is no god, it just us man. is that so scary, you were born, you live, than you die, the end. that's not scary is it? that's live, make it a good one, you'll only get one. dead people and gods in the skies and demons in the grounds make for good movies, but reality... no :P
+David Roberts Lol"d at the yawn. Pretty interesting teacher this Tim Keller. Only heard of his the other day and just amazed at how he breaks up the bible.
nigony If you download the ''Redeemer'' app (Android/ iOS) you can listen to free podcasts and services by him. Highly recommended! play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.subsplash.thechurchapp.redeemerpresbyterian
Great teaser on the title because it couldn't be further from the truth. Tim Keller destroyed this guy. If you are an Atheist and you want to hold on to your view don't listen. You just might change your view.
Elwood Jones No, this video did not change my view, would a Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens video change your view? Have you ever investigated information which runs counter to your beliefs? An educated atheist has looked at both sides of the issue and most have a religious background. An educated atheist could no more start believing in God than any rational adult could start believing in Santa Claus.
+if6was929 How many adults do you know that have come to believe in Santa? Equivocation fallacy if6was929. Educated adults peruse logic and reason books and don't commit red herrings and logical fallacies.
Oyster Popsicles"Equivocation" - really? do you know what that word means? Get your nose out of the thesaurus and think before offering a reply that confirms your stupidity. The point I made has nothing to do with whether or not any adults have ever come believe in Santa. I'll put this in a way that even you can understand: everyone eventually comes to the conclusion that Santa does not and cannot exist because - there's no evidence to support a belief in that children's story. An atheist who comes to the same conclusion, for the same reason about God, can no more start to believe in God than any adult could return to believing in Santa. If someone calls themselves an atheist but eventually becomes a believer then they never really understood why they previously choose to reject the supernatural. Got it? Don't bother to respond because I don't really care if you don't!
if6was929 Well that was a nice hit and run and ad hominem fallacy. Thank you for proving my point. Rofl, your thesaurus reference was a non-sequitur! "Got it? Don't bother to respond because I don't really care if you don't!" Lmao, I think you mean do old chap. Again, quell the incorrigibility and peruse a philosophy book. Logic, reason and science ='s the atheists worst nightmare! You make me chortle with your wishful thinking.
+if6was929 The proof is His resurrection from the dead. Jesus defeated the grave, which swallows everyone else, you included. Repent of your vain imaginings and believe in the one who proved His love by dying for us...and His deity by rising from the grave.
Here's a noval idea of you Christians, how about you stop preaching the Gospels and start practicing what it teaches? The most effective "program" for evangelising would be to help the poor...
bpdav1 Here's a novel idea for you atheists who think they're being clever with smart remarks: The Catholic Church through missionaries and collections breathes hope into people's lives throughout the world when the world would rather spend money on clothes, cars, wars, weapons etc. etc. I am sure many other Christian aid services do many great things too. The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 per cent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for Pastoral Assistance to Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities.
+bpdav1 I'm working on it! I think mother Teresa was a good example of how Christians should love, however, she also spoke about the Gospel a lot as well. Us Christians just don't know how to be quiet, yeah? lol
+bpdav1 "Here's a noval idea of you Christians, how about you stop preaching the Gospels and start practicing what it teaches?" Because spreading the Gospel IS practicing the Gospel. It's a part of it anyway.
I don't like it when videos like these are posted with titles like "Atheism demolished". I'm fairly certain that Mr. Keller did not think that he had defeated all of Atheism when he made this sermon, and to use such a title only puts Atheists on the defensive and makes them think that we're their enemy. Perhaps it would be better if the poster chose a more moderate title in the future. (I see this type of thing from both sides btw, not just Christians.)
Or we could just ask Dr Keller how he'd like the lecture entitled...and let it be, because that's his choice. Surely.
@Gogators57 you were wise when you wrote that 8 years ago. How's your life going now? I pray it's well.
I have read several of Dr. Keller's books and listened to dozens of his sermons in person and online. The title of this video is rooted in trying to prove someone wrong. I believe a Christian apologist worth his weight in salt would tell you that proving someone wrong is almost never productive in winning hearts for Jesus. This is, ultimately, the mission of Tim Keller's entire professional life. Reducing his work to finger pointing at other ideologies as ""wrong"" does not give his life's work the credit it deserves.
i remember listening to this message years ago and thinking, that had like nothing to do with the video title 😀 it wasn't the message i was expecting, but even better.
I love Tim Keller, he is such a refreshing voice.
Rest in peace Tim Keller.
Thank you for posting this awesome talk. But, as others have said, I hope you change the title. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people with questions about God who chose not to listen to this amazing discussion just because they were offended by the title.
I agree.
Good video by Keller. Bad title by uploader.
+pdubvideo LOL! You beat me to it!
I agree. Perhaps title was meant for another video.
Tim Keller Slammed Dunk, hit a home run with bases loaded and threw the final TD w/ no seconds left on the clock.(enough on my sport metaphor). Great message.
Tim Keller is a really good teacher. He is my go to right now for clarification on many topics. Around 52:00 he talks about people making the claim “it must be true for me”, and Keller rebukes that to some degree. There is a problem with this. It is true that the individual makes choices and more importantly perceives reality and has a unique individual experience of reality, and God. This is a very critical fact that many Christian preachers overlook or don’t understand. There is no perception without the individual, the individual being primary. God must have intended this or it would not be.
i dont think this is meant to target atheists. please retitle the video appropriately. this is not helping to spread the Word. Really great message for believers but wrong target as falsely suggested by the title.
I am sure the content is good and convincing. The title however is just begging for abuse and trolling. I am sure Tim Keller would never say such a thing himself. By adding a title like this you are just inviting people that will have no interest in engaging in a reasonable debate or discussion. Most reasonable atheists would just avoid the stupidity that such a title suggests.
Agreed, I just made a similar post before scrolling down to realize that you'd said the same thing.
+iSolarthe2nd "reasonable atheist" Is that not an oxymoron? just kidding, simmer down. One must assume then (I do) that atheists and other non-believers who comment on these kinds of videos are, in fact, unreasonable. What is the point of making negative comments towards believers, except to start a fight, (unless they are reaching out for help). I try to make it a point to pray for commenting non-believers.
I agree with everything you said lol except the fact that atheists wouldn't come here because of the title. trust me I've debated atheists and stuff with this title is exactly what they watch
+Sam Abebe "Most reasonable atheists"
Atheism isn't reasonable.
I don't think the title is apt for expressing the subject matter of this video. Consider changing it.
Love the presentation. Love Dr. Keller. I am so thankful for his contribution to the Kingdom and the world before God brought him to glory. But if Calvinism is true, does it really make sense for us to understand and employ allllllllllllll of this in order to evangelize? It seems to me that evangelizing is in fact sharing the Gospel with free creatures who can in fact reject OR accept it and be saved.
In the Indian Ocean Tsunami, many people in several seaside towns lost their loved ones, their homes, and their belongings. In this dreary aftermath, many competing Christian missionaries reached out to these people with the offer of food and clothes from their trucks provided the recipient and her/his family converted to their specific denomination of Christianity.
This is the essence of Christianity today: so-called moral Christians spending an inordinate amount of their time engaging in a kind of cheap quid pro quo evangelizing than in trying to help a fellow human being in a time of need and desperation.
there are "wooden
" gospel tools/tracts, but you can make it relate to a person by HOW one presents it. A tract works best when someone talks it through a relationship
Repackaging the gospel and presenting it to atheists is not going to convert us. The reason we are atheists is simply that theists have not met their burden of proof for their claims. Show us evidence and we will believe your claims. Until then we will dismiss them, its the only reasonable option, if we just take the claims on faith that would be gullibility.
so you're saying you didn't listen to this, huh?
just commenting on the subject without listening?
Yes I listened to the whole thing. He's concerned that Christians are not evangelizing effectively but his answer fails to grasp why people don't believe the claims in the bible. If his god existed atheists would be more than happy to acknowledge that, as it stands now he's made many assertions and provided no evidence.
Ian G you should try reading his book, "Reason for God - Belief in an age of skepticism". I'll be honest, I get through books faster when I listen to the audio versions while I'm at work. He Makes makes some compelling rational, philosophical scientific, and logical arguments. Even for an atheist or nonbeliever, there are some refreshing points he makes AGAINST "traditional religious conservatives". He paints a fair picture of the world as having very polarized views, equally wrong, Each side doing disservice to its own view point.
Look at how you phrased this: "He Makes makes some compelling rational, philosophical scientific, and logical arguments"
Can you think of anything else that exists that you have to speak of in terms like that? When we talk about things that are real we simply talk about them, there is no need for rational, philosophical, scientific, and logical arguments when I tell you about my wife, kids or my cat. When a friend comes over they would be able to meet all of them. Their existence is plainly obvious to any, and if there was ever a question, like maybe an old friend that found it hard to believe that I actually had kids I could simply introduce them, or show them a picture.
Now contrast that with the way religious people speak about the various gods from around the world. Suddenly the conversation turns to sweeping grand arguments and philosophical pondering, I'm told that I must have "faith" or I must "seek honestly" and the truth will be revealed to me. Of course each religious person is confident that my journey will end with their particular god or gods. I have a feeling Tim Keller would not be convinced when a muslim uses the exact same arguments he does but arrives at a completely different god.
Tim might point to Jesus being unique among the worlds religions but that's like saying that "The Matrix" is unique among the worlds movies, of course it's unique, that does not make it special or true, just unique. If Tim had been raised in India with devout Hindu parents it's very likely that he would be Hindu and writing books that argue for the existence of the Hindu gods. And if you had been born there too you might be telling me to read those books and hoping that I will be open to learning the "truth"
Ask yourself this, if there were compelling evidence for the existence of the Christian god "Yahweh" wouldn't Tim Keller (and every other Christian writer) be presenting that to us instead of having to resort to the same arguments that the other religions use for their own gods?
I'm sorry but from the outside it looks like believers of all types are grasping at straws trying to argue something into existence that is probably not there. An actual god who was interested in people knowing it existed would not have any trouble providing compelling evidence for it's existence, to fail to do so would be it's fault, not mine.
"The Supremacy of Christ in the Post-Modern World" given December 2006 at the Desiring God National Conference. This is a link to the original sermon for you to download in video and audio for free. www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-supremacy-of-christ-and-the-gospel-in-a-postmodern-world
Good lecture. Horrible title.
Very insightful!
terrible title, fantastic teaching on our desperate need of the Gospel in every area of life. How about a title--Evangelism in post modern times.
This is a great sermon, for believers. It isn't a theological or apologetic discussion for non-believers. This isn't helpful, for believers or non-believers. Kinda feel like you're blunting your ministry here with click-bait.
This really makes me want to be loved by Jesus so that I love people and live like Him. This title is not authentic to the message of the video.
the awesome, terrifying God of the universe decided to show us love in a non -terrifying way,..by coming to us in a way we could understand, as Jesus.
this righteous, pure God decided to reconcile his tainted , sin soaked creation -that would have to necessarily disintegrate like a germ in the sunlight if it were to be in His presence- by accepting the blood sacrifice of His own Son in our place, so that we now covered in His blood, can approach the throne boldly and call Him friend.
i heard someone explain that we cling to this sphere of life around us like the unborn child, warm and safe and not knowing what the world beyond is like. yet the world beyond is awaiting and amazing, with caring hands to hold us and eyes looking down in love. maybe why Jesus says we must be 'born again'
Up. Corruption then perfection but I'm healing
Non-terrifying way?? Have you seen Passion of the Christ??
Plus why didn't he visit China, India or Japan? Or America for that matter!
jLaine Gordon pròmmpf the
^
yes
1000s of years, 1000s of gods, yet still no evidence.
This is in response to what Keller said that Jesus said to the disciples in the video.
28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. -Mark 9:28-29- PRAYER and FASTING not just prayer. It has to be BOTH.
+Toni Thompson be sure you check your manuscript evidence. Many modern readings of the best and oldest manuscripts do not include the last two words ( "and fasting") which could be later additions. I like the two together, "prayer and fasting," but many see it as truer to the text to not include the fasting part.
John Bosquet-Morra, I've only read this from the King James Version 1611 edition, If that is considered modern reading material to you, then I'm at a lost. However, if there be older variations I need to be aware of, by all means list them. I like the combination of both fasting and praying as well, but whether I like it or not, that is what is written in the bible. At least the one I've been reading the KJV. Either way I put my trust in the Holy Spirit to guide me in my reading, not man. Thank you for the heads up just the same.
the problem isn't that some of the people who labeled themselves as Christians did terrible things, plenty of non-religious people have done terrible things
the real problem is that the Bible advocates beating slaves, stoning an unruly child, not allowing women to preach or hold authority over a man
the very Gospel itself is the problem, not just the way that it has been delivered
the whole concept of us being condemned for the misdeeds of our ancestors (for in the first Adam we all die) is problematic and not a good message for building a healthy, happy, cooperative, flourishing community
The Gospel is not the problem. Gospel literally means "good news" and it was delivered to us by Jesus. And the good news the gospel brought is that you don't beat slaves anymore, you don't stone unruly children anymore and that male and female relationships are set right.
It is not really because of the misdeeds of our ancestors why we were condemned. It is free will that got us into trouble. Adam and Eve just did the inevitable. Without free will, we would be slaves and robots. If God hadn't given us free will, then we would complain about that. Now we have free will, and complain about that too. For free will to really play out in full scale, there had to be a choice between good and evil. Otherwise it is not really free will if there are still restrictions. And once you have a full scope of choice, it is inevitable that someone somewhere will choose the bad.
And again the Gospel is not the problem. The Gospel is that God in the body of Jesus came and fixed the broken relationship between God and man. I am not dead in Adam anymore, I am alive through Jesus Christ. It's a very good basis for building a happy community.
What would be your replacement?
I would like him to debate William Lane Craig on the subject of Hell. I think Christians would learn a lot.
I imagine that most of the comments on here are from people who didn't get past the (badly chosen) title of this UA-cam video. Classic Internet-assembled education! We are the future! LOL
Ian G, is not atheism another exchange of beliefs based on negative faith (doubt)? The affirmation of a negative in absolute terms is self defeating. Not trying to throw shade but I believe faith does drive both worlds views.
Negative faith now? Come on man. Faith is belief without evidence. You can do better than that. Go trick a child, that's what keeps christianity going. There are adults here, you can't float that crap.
Secular Humanist so what is it you believe? What brought everything into creation?
Everything points to a creator, you believe all this is by chance? Evolution?
Go look up "argument from ignorance".
Why are you so uncomfortable with not knowing something, and accepting one mythical explanation?
The truth is we don't know how existence came about, but I doubt it was conjured up by a magic-man in the sky, let alone the particular one you happen to believe in.
This is an excellent talk. However the title is click bait.
What we need more of is profit based preachers' input on social issues. Whatever most positively affects their bottom line, that's what evangelists will preach. Jesus had a name for these people, and it wasn't flattering!
+Zero Gullibility If you are referring to the preachers who say "come to Jesus and He'll give fix your health, finances, relationships, and give you a puppy" then I agree with you. If you are lumping Tim Keller in with these health and wealth charlatans then it is clear that you have not heard much of Him and are simply one who dismisses all things Christian so you can continue life without having to really face life's most crucial question: What do I do with God's Son whom He gave as atonement for sin? There is no forgiveness apart from Jesus.
+BrotherofWord Delusions are not a sign of intelligence, but of ignorance. An intelligent person who believes in ghosts and magic is proclaiming such "faith" at the risk of ridicule. You get no extra points for God delusions when among intellectuals. Got God? Hide it from educated adults, because this little detail could be deal breaker. I embrace my mortality and have no use for alternative realities (aka delusions). The time for coddling religious nonsense has passed.
Zero Gullibility If death were as you imagine it then you can indeed be fearless. But it is not. If you live your entire life choosing "not God" over God, then death is the natural and eternal continuation of this (ie you get "not God" forever. At first blush this sounds great to you until you consider that God is the source of all the good things you have ever enjoyed: food, water, air, comfort, rest, friendship, love, you name it. If it's good, it comes to you as a reflection of God's goodness. But instead of thanking Him and honoring Him you despise the source of the goodness yet hypocritically love the goodness. When you die and God removes Himself from you forever, all good is removed from you as well. The absence of all good is ultimate bad. That's what Hell is. Forever thirsting, never drinking. Forever hungering, never being filled. Smothering, never breathing. Wanting love, getting only maddening solitude and regret. No rest. No comfort. And for what? So you can be numbered among the intellectual. How foolish is this 'wisdom"! God loves you and proved it by sparing not His Son to take death (separation from God) for us. Thank Him and love Him for it. Trust Him while you yet breathe.
Phenomenal.
Probably need a period before Dr Tim Keller. I thought an atheist demolished Dr Keller's sermon or something
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who - in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ - cannot hear the music of the spheres.”-Albert Einstein.
what's the music at the beginning ?
26:19 so true, evangelicals REALLY need to hear this.
I'm genuinely interested to know what you people think...what does 'evangelical ' mean? I thought it meant 'bible believing '.
Franklin Graham forsook his father's first love.
The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good." Psalm 14:1
Secularist FreeThought
You make the point very well. Congratulations.
The Orthodox Church is a good place to turn to. It can and does get at the deep demon..
+Chad Jones
Individual Orthodox churches do suffer from corruption. However, the Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth.
toahordika6 Very true and it is that fullness that I at least immediately noticed.
Demolish atheism, alas, he does not. Nor does he even try.
Keller talks about the postmodern problem of interpretation but not the problem of authority. How to you deal with the fundamental undermining of Biblical truth brought about by close scrutiny of the text itself?
His extension of the elephant analogy to undermine relativism does not work, because people who use it do not believe the “whole elephant” (absolute truth) is something they themselves know. The analogy does, however, take for granted that a whole elephant exists-that might be a good place to start from.
This video is directed at believers and giving direction on how to witness to people...giving it the clickbait title is pretty silly. Anything for channel views I guess.
He mentions 'a Christian understanding of truth'.
I think a Christian understanding of truth is that there is truth.
And you can know it (him).
The title makes me wonder if.. Does Lying for Jesus is a get you into a heaven?
Go and tell this to some of the ppl who were murdered, tortured or burned alive.
what?
are you talking about Christians? or witches?
Eternity With Christ ti would be nice if in fact there is a god,,,which seems not to be the case. All facts indicates that men created God at his own image, 1st and 2nd world wars proved that if there's a God he actually doesn't seem to care about us. Now thinking about the millions of ppl that dies in poverty, hungry and miserable ...everyday hundreds of new born babies with terrible diseases, general world wide natural catastrophes killing thousands of innocent ppl....the list is way too huge...so if there's a God...he's a bastard without any heart or he is a tremendous imbecile, useless and incompetent. All the diseases we get rid of along the last 6 hundreds years, was product of the strive and brilliant efforts of the human race, scientists who dedicated their life to make this crazy insane world better... no, we don't need your God, your religion and your false sense of happiness. We need more education, more schools ...and to get rid for once and for all of those delusional extremists fanatical religious groups.
Jeffrey Youngblood no, I'm talking about the thousands of innocent ppl who were tortured, burned and murdered in name of the God. There was a time when religious ppl had the power over our society,,..that time is called Dark Ages. No thank you, we are way better without religion, and specifically better without any man made God.
Eternity With Christ I'm not being disrespectful...I'm logical. If you want to believe in some powerful being that watches all your moves, thoughts and actions...yet it's totally invisible, I'm ok with that! Hell, I'm even ok if want to believe in fairy tales and Disneyland. It's your right! That what means to live in USA!!! Now...when those religious groups comes shouting and pointing to my face that l need to repent, accept your savior....or else I'll gonna die and burn in hell....that's where I can't stand and just watch such stupid hypocrisy....even worse when they think they have the right to teach their stupid fake bible study in our schools !! If you believe in a God...keep to yourself, that's it!
Yes, actual evidence is rather compelling. Do you buy things without evidence what that it works, has value, functions as advertised? Get real.
Where did this Tim Keller disappear to?
Exactly what "evidence" would be sufficient to convince atheists? God appearing in front of you and performing magic tricks at your command?
Wayne Hampson It seems like if that would convince atheists, on moral realism, that would be the right thing to do.
What about the evidence presented to people in the Bible?
Talking burning bushes, being visited by angels, visions?
We're not anymore skeptical than Joseph or Paul before they had a supernatural experience.
Wayne Hampson "evidence"? In quotes? Are you trying to be sarcastic? Right now there is no evidence at all, so let's start with something small. Have him end all childhood pain and disease forever. If he can't do that have him fly up his holy ass and disappear. We don't need him.
+LasergunExtreme the Bible is true and there are biblical scholars working diligently proving that the statements are true, but to you ,your Volareity, shows me it is a waste time because it's to high for your illogical though.
+lobsterbobable " Have him end all childhood pain and disease forever. "
Atheists think God is something to wield, a tool to use, and they deny it as they do it.
If God will not do as I want ( if I cannot command God) then He cannot exist.
They're half right, God cannot exist in the atheist mind because the atheist ego will not tolerate His presence.
I was atheist for 40 yrs, I did exactly the same thing, said the same stupid crap as every other atheist said and say today, the narrative doesn't change when ego feeds the words to the mouth.
"end all childhood pain and disease"
The atheist mind cannot grasp nuances, the distinction between pain and suffering is a classic.
Pain is experienced in every life, suffering is an option.
Eliminating all pain violates free will.
In terms of proof of God's existence, there is none. Unless you consider proof to be the same as that relied upon by a jury in a court of law. That is to say, often the only one who knows factually who committed the murder is the murderer and the victim. The jury doesn't know. (Sometimes only the murderer knows). I consider the question of God's existence to be in this category. No one "knows" there is a God. Just as no one on the Jury "knows" who committed the murder. So we are left to make a decision based on the evidence (same as the Jury) as to whether or not God exists. So no matter which position you take, atheist, agnostic, or believer, they are all a matter of belief after weighing the evidence. You cannot know one way or the other. You can only have faith that, given the evidence, you have made the best choice. One thing we can be sure of though, everyone has a position which they choose. It is a fundamental question of human existence as to whether or not we exist with purpose, or if we are here by happenstance. Is there a God or is there no God? I've yet to meet a person who, when asked whether or not they believe in God, respond by saying, "What do you mean"?
The world, the creation around you, if they are not an accident, someone must have created it. I can't pass a multiple choice by accident (very unlikely), how could I have been accidentally just here out of nowhere?
excellent summary
Hello Again, Ian. I just re-read my comments, and I think I need to say that I meant no insult by calling aethism illogical. I am sure you are not dumb or illogical personally. (Place where I would say "God Bless" ordinarily.)
Yes the default mode.
Improperly titled. He hardly even addresses that issue.
Please out of respect for Dr. Keller change the title. He was not an aggressive, atheist hater. He loved all of us and wished only to demolish ignorance
I don't think evangelism was in such a hard place in the past. It has nothing to do with inoculation. It has everything to do with comfort. The people who are most comfortable (in the west) are the people who are most removed from the message of Christ. "What do I need him for?". So the so called post modern man is just rich and is inoculated against prosperity preaching . OK don't do that.
"He"? "Him"?
Anyone mind if I refer to God with the pronoun "it", or maybe "It"?
Not to offend but can we remove this apparent inaccuracy from the start before considering the whole God issue. It seems to me that, any way you slice it, "He" makes an unwelcome or at least unhelpful statement, in a discussion of our beliefs about the source of life, living things, and our world.
why? why does that present a problem or inaccuracy to refer 2 God as him?
Title should have been "Strawman atheism demolished"
If he can't even take the time to learn what positions atheists actually hold then it's hard to have a meaningful dialogue.
If any Christians are curious I would be happy to answer any questions as best I can about atheism.
***** Keller and most other apologists present atheists as if they are 100% certain that no gods or goddesses exist. No matter how many times they are corrected by us they still go right back to their next debate or lecture and repeat the same thing. It's very frustrating.
***** let me use an analogy if that's okay. Imagine that a stranger comes to you and says:
"last night was crazy! An alien space ship appeared above my house and abducted me! They flew me out to Mars and I got to touch the Mars rover! Then they flew me back and dropped me off back at my house!"
Do you believe this story told to you be a stranger? I'd imagine that you would be like me, you would be skeptical of the claims being made to you.
But when the stranger sees that you are skeptical he goes around town and starts telling people:
"Chad says that there are no aliens anywhere in the universe!"
You would probably be a little frustrated since that's not actually your position. Not believing his claim does not then tie you to the much larger claim that "aliens don't exist!"
So in the same way I'm skeptical of the specific claims that Keller makes.
I'm *not* saying: "gods and goddesses do not exist"
I'm saying: "Tim Keller hasn't convinced me that his claims are true"
And no matter how many times atheists like me correct that and give the more nuanced position it seems to never alter the way apologists speak about us. So yeah... Frustrating :)
***** yes, practically speaking I would agree with you that for atheists if the question is just a loose "hey does X god exist?" the shorthand answer is "no" or "no, probably not" or "almost certainly not" depending on the god in question of course :)
There is a great video that I often link people to that explains the "null hypothesis" I think it's only 13 minutes, want me to dig up the link for ya?
It seems now days people are doing almost anything to get more views on their videos. (if a something gets you to click their stuff then they might do ti) Plus, if someone's content is monetized, there's a motivation to make all kinds of content simply to make profit. (i don't know if this video is or not)
Ian, are you saying there is an atheist doctrine? How can you claim to speak for atheists?
The idea of a God works only if the supernatural (ghosts and magic) are considered reasonable. Without such adjustments to the laws of physics, the concept of a God is idiotic. To those who say we require God for our sense of morals, I ask WHY? We have laws benefiting society. We are compelled to follow those laws. We also have an instinctive sense of self preservation. That instinct tells us that it is necessary for humans to get along. The golden rule is a logical thing and existed long before Biblical times. If you want others to treat you well, then you would have to treat them the same way. You need no Bible to know that. There are so many commandments Christians conveniently disobey (ignore), yet this seems to create no conflict at all. How is that? Adultery, greed, and other unbecoming things are practiced by almost all who profess to take the 10 commandments seriously. Speaking falsely against thy neighbor...Republican Congress breaks that commandment on a daily basis. Please stop pretending that your faith compels you to be a better person. If anything it gives you an excuse to do the opposite. Religious people have a monopoly on hypocrisy. That's a measurable fact. Don't give me fairy tales and threaten me with that nonsense to come true...after I die. I embrace my mortality, you fear yours. Not my problem.
+Zero Gullibility "The idea of a God works only if the supernatural (ghosts and magic) are considered reasonable."
What's considered reasonable to you is totally based on your beliefs.
"Without such adjustments to the laws of physics, the concept of a God is idiotic."
God requires no change to the laws of physics BUT atheistic scientific beliefs about the universe have caused some atheistic scientists to look for a "new physics" to allow for these ludicrous beliefs. A "universe from nothing" ignores the backbone of science which is "cause and effect".
Evolution has never once been observed, tested and verified which is the scientific method.
It's atheistic science myths that are incompatible with modern science.
"To those who say we require God for our sense of morals, I ask WHY?"
God is moral but amazingly he is not the source of OUR morals. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Who enticed Eve to eat from the tree? The serpent did. Satan gave humanity the knowledge of good and evil, not God.
It's not looked at by Christians (for obvious reasons) but it's what Genesis says. That nagging moral sense you have comes from the knowledge of good and evil and we are all born with it. Because we are all born with it God holds us accountable for good and evil. If you have any complaints then direct them to Satan. Meanwhile God holds you accountable for that knowledge so deal with it.
"The golden rule is a logical thing and existed long before Biblical times. If you want others to treat you well, then you would have to treat them the same way. You need no Bible to know that."
That's why God can hold someone who has never read the Bible accountable for their actions. Everyone knows good from evil. It comes with the human package.
"There are so many commandments Christians conveniently disobey (ignore), yet this seems to create no conflict at all."
It always creates conflict.
"Adultery, greed, and other unbecoming things are practiced by almost all who profess to take the 10 commandments seriously. Speaking falsely against thy neighbor...Republican Congress breaks that commandment on a daily basis."
Every day Christians fail to be Christlike.
"Please stop pretending that your faith compels you to be a better person. If anything it gives you an excuse to do the opposite."
Nobody needs an excuse to do bad but they always find one anyway. The excuse by definition is not the reason. The reason is sin. Jesus forgives sinners and then says, "sin no more". Many fall short of that command but I do see change in Christians who take those words to heart. I've seen it in my life as well.
"Religious people have a monopoly on hypocrisy."
Christians certainly have no monopoly on hypocrisy but the hypocrisy is greater in a Christian when they fall short.
This is true. We are called to a higher calling and when we fall short the contrast is greater.
"That's a measurable fact."
It's not measurable, it's palpable.
"Don't give me fairy tales and threaten me with that nonsense to come true...after I die. I embrace my mortality, you fear yours. Not my problem."
While it's easy to see Christians when they fall short, don't forget the ones who don't. They don't get the attention they deserve. They give more money to strangers in need across the world than all the other peoples of the world combined, they dig wells and build schools in distant lands for people who couldn't care less about them and they help people in countries they can't even pronounce the name of all to give back to mankind and ask for nothing in return. That's a real Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. His example is the pinnacle of living a life worth living.
+Robert Sparks The supernatural is for idiots. Enjoy your ghosts and your magic. We (thinkers) aren't dumb enough for such BS.
schlummieleinchen1 "The supernatural is for idiots"
Which one of the gods told you that?
"Enjoy your ghosts and your magic. We (thinkers) aren't dumb enough for such BS."
So when you were thinking, what part of the brain did you use to access this empirical truth? I mean, how do you know there isn't a spirit realm?
+Robert Sparks Supernatural is like anything imaginary. It's not real. It's not natural. It's not there. If you claim there are ghosts and magic (a really outrageous claim), you need equally wild and crazy EVIDENCE, which you don't have. So stop embarrassing yourself. Only fellow-idiots think you're NOT one.
SynchroTotal "Supernatural is like anything imaginary. It's not real."
And which one of the God's told you that? How do you know this incredible knowledge of what exists or not? Hint: You can't and don't know however you are just delusional enough to think you do.
"If you claim there are ghosts and magic (a really outrageous claim), you need equally wild and crazy EVIDENCE, which you don't have."
Do you actually think humans don't have a spiritual component? If so, why do you think that? Wouldn't the only evidence I would need for the spiritual realm is for you to be body and spirit? The Bible say humans are body and spirit and together we are a living soul. You don't think you have a spirit nature?
There is no "brand" of atheism that is logical. Proving a negtive is impossible here, and IMHO, that ends it. Agnostics are more intellectally honesy IMO, and even as a Christian, I can sympathize with their arguments. Oddly enough, many of their arguments are discussed in the Psalms and other parts of the Bible by various biblical characters. Famous atheist Christopher Hitchens used to go on about what a vengeful, horrid, murderous god the god of the Bible was, and then went on, almost humorously, to tell us He didn't exist! Other atheists play the same game, and defeat their own stance by doing so.
If I say that a given character in a given story is evil, cruel, etc., does not mean i believe that person to be real. It just means the the person, as seen in the story/book, contains those characteristics. Asserting that Hitch said those things about god is evidence that he believed he exists is a pretty ridiculous claim to make.
Joffrey Baratheon is a vengeful, horrid, murderous person, but that does not mean Joffrey must be a real person.
If that's your opinion then why don't you have an issue with the fact that you can't prove your positive (God exists) either. Saying God does exist with no proof is just as bad as saying he doesn't exist with no proof (the bible doesn't count as proof) . It's a book that was written by man, so you can't site it as the word of God.
Nonsense I call mine faith but you refuse to call yours faith I am honest and you are not end of story
i've had conversations at great length about the evilness of Darth Vader, Voldamort and Game of Thrones characters.
How on earth would you think that means for a second I think they're not fictional characters?
Such a terrible argument...
More proof of the events in the Bible than ANY others in antiquity If you believe Plato existed, and i am sure you do, why not God given the overwhelmingly larger proof of the latter?
Intellectually....I need a proofreader!
Ahead of his time.
Keller doesn't demolish anything. In fact his message is muddled and indistinct. Sort of like a politician who says "We need to stand up for XXXXX!" but provides nothing concrete in terms of method. He also lost me as soon as he called me a racist for not living in the city. Thanks, Dr. Intellectualoid. Good luck preaching to your elitist friends. I'll stick with the simple gospel message of Jesus: "You must have the faith of a little child."
+Sophie Maele "message of Jesus: "You must have the faith of a little child.""
Thats what I must BE, not what I should do.
" I am sending you out among the wolves...."
Is what I will do.
+Sophie Maele I have to wonder why your simple gospel is so hostile to Tim Keller. He is not everyone's cup of tea, but he is not "Dr. Intelectualoid preaching to ...elitist friends." He has contributed greatly to The Lord's Kingdom. Don't write him off so easily!
Yes, but where is the power of God?
Christianity is purely a textual claim. Isn't it possible that at least some of the Bible isn't true and inspired? If the Bible is false or partly false, then everything falls apart. I encourage all Christians to read the Bible, without their God-glasses on, without presupposing it to be true, without giving it the benefit of the doubt. Aside: If Christians ever enter a Bible Quiz, please ask atheists to join your team, since they know the Bible better than you do.
how can you live in a (post)modern world if you believe in a thousands year old storyXD why is it so hard to live with the fact that there most likely is no god, it just us man. is that so scary, you were born, you live, than you die, the end. that's not scary is it? that's live, make it a good one, you'll only get one. dead people and gods in the skies and demons in the grounds make for good movies, but reality... no :P
How to communicate and evangelize in a postmodern world. Yawn.
+David Roberts You comments on these videos really make me wonder why you watch them?
+Matilda Hewitt because of the title, i was looking for the demolish part but i'm with David Roberts....zzzzzzzz boring.
+David Roberts Lol"d at the yawn. Pretty interesting teacher this Tim Keller. Only heard of his the other day and just amazed at how he breaks up the bible.
nigony If you download the ''Redeemer'' app (Android/ iOS) you can listen to free podcasts and services by him. Highly recommended! play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.subsplash.thechurchapp.redeemerpresbyterian
haggeo romero
You're right. The title is stupid. Probably viewbait. The message is still good tho.
Great teaser on the title because it couldn't be further from the truth. Tim Keller destroyed this guy. If you are an Atheist and you want to hold on to your view don't listen. You just might change your view.
Elwood Jones No, this video did not change my view, would a Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens video change your view? Have you ever investigated information which runs counter to your beliefs? An educated atheist has looked at both sides of the issue and most have a religious background. An educated atheist could no more start believing in God than any rational adult could start believing in Santa Claus.
+if6was929 How many adults do you know that have come to believe in Santa? Equivocation fallacy if6was929. Educated adults peruse logic and reason books and don't commit red herrings and logical fallacies.
Oyster Popsicles"Equivocation" - really? do you know what that word means? Get your nose out of the thesaurus and think before offering a reply that confirms your stupidity. The point I made has nothing to do with whether or not any adults have ever come believe in Santa. I'll put this in a way that even you can understand: everyone eventually comes to the conclusion that Santa does not and cannot exist because - there's no evidence to support a belief in that children's story. An atheist who comes to the same conclusion, for the same reason about God, can no more start to believe in God than any adult could return to believing in Santa. If someone calls themselves an atheist but eventually becomes a believer then they never really understood why they previously choose to reject the supernatural. Got it? Don't bother to respond because I don't really care if you don't!
if6was929
Well that was a nice hit and run and ad hominem fallacy. Thank you for proving my point. Rofl, your thesaurus reference was a non-sequitur! "Got it? Don't bother to respond because I don't really care if you don't!" Lmao, I think you mean do old chap. Again, quell the incorrigibility and peruse a philosophy book. Logic, reason and science ='s the atheists worst nightmare! You make me chortle with your wishful thinking.
+if6was929 The proof is His resurrection from the dead. Jesus defeated the grave, which swallows everyone else, you included. Repent of your vain imaginings and believe in the one who proved His love by dying for us...and His deity by rising from the grave.
Here's a noval idea of you Christians, how about you stop preaching the Gospels and start practicing what it teaches?
The most effective "program" for evangelising would be to help the poor...
bpdav1 Here's a novel idea for you atheists who think they're being clever with smart remarks:
The Catholic Church through missionaries and collections breathes hope into people's lives throughout the world when the world would rather spend money on clothes, cars, wars, weapons etc. etc.
I am sure many other Christian aid services do many great things too.
The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 per cent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for Pastoral Assistance to Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities.
+bpdav1 Did you listen to the video? That's exactly what Keller talks about! Lol
+bpdav1 I'm working on it! I think mother Teresa was a good example of how Christians should love, however, she also spoke about the Gospel a lot as well. Us Christians just don't know how to be quiet, yeah? lol
+bpdav1 "Here's a noval idea of you Christians, how about you stop preaching the Gospels and start practicing what it teaches?"
Because spreading the Gospel IS practicing the Gospel.
It's a part of it anyway.
+bpdav1 The Christian Church has been the greatest force in the history of the world when it comes to Charity. Thank you for reminding us of this.