True. It sounds like every time an atheist is trying to talk about their position and the reason., these loud and ignorant people feel the need to get insulting and loud
@@incognito5109I remember watching this on TV (as a repeat) and being struck by how cool, calm and collected the 3 atheists were and how loud and angry the others (including Ophra-my respect for her has really dimmed over the years) were
As a person of color, I can't understand why black people are oblivious to the fact that the same holy book they follow is the same book used to endorse slavery.
I've very frequently been quite puzzled by this seemingly obvious contradiction. I'm thinking "you seriously believe in a god that not only approves of slavery, but at times encourages it, and gives purchasing guidelines, not to mention explaining the extent to which you can beat them?!"
@@mrluke13 You're the idiot. 1 Corinthians 7:21 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you-although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 1 Peter 2:16 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 1 Peter 2:18 18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 1 Timothy 1:10 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 1 Timothy 6:1 1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Colossians 3:22 22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Colossians 4:1 1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven. Deuteronomy 23:15 15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. Deuteronomy 24:7 7 If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you. Ephesians 6:5 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Ephesians 6:9 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Exodus 21:2 2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. Exodus 21:7 7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:32 32 If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death. Galatians 3:28 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 5:1 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Exodus 21:16 16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. Leviticus 25:39 39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. Luke 4:18 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,because he has anointed meto proclaim good news to the poor.He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisonersand recovery of sight for the blind,to set the oppressed free, Philemon 1:16 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord. Proverbs 22:16 16 One who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and one who gives gifts to the rich-both come to poverty. Titus 2:9-10 9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. Luke 12:47-48 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Exodus 21:20-21 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Exodus 21:26-27 26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth. Deuteronomy 23:15-16 15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2 1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves. These are the things you are to teach and insist on. Leviticus 25:44-46 44 “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Exodus 21:7-11 7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
You can't even be an outspoken atheist NOW. Yea, I can't imagine how much harder it would have been back then. Keep going further back and you would have been guaranteed to be murdered for even hinting you are an atheist. In some countries, you currently would be. Atheists are hated more than child-molesters. Child-molesters get their own building in every town, are protected from any responsibility of their actions, and don't have to pay taxes. Some child-molesters tend to gain great power in politics. I don't know of any kind of person more feared of than an atheist (the most intelligent beings in history).
@@ericconnor708 Another confused atheist. Why would you want to be outspoken about your beliefs to begin with? Keep your beliefs to yourself and you have nothing to worry about. You're lying about Atheists being murdered simply because. That's absurd. Even today you can't be an outspoken atheist? Says who? I don't recall a single atheist being targeted for that reason. The internet is rampant with atheists, numerous atheists do nothing but travel and debate in a public forum, I've never heard of any issues. The issue I see is that atheists that host in this forum are rude and vile. The comment section is loaded with slander and hatred. Outrageous claims are made regularly, like the claim that you made.
Oprah should be ashamed of herself supposed to be wise oh I had an opinion that she where but when it came to religion she was just as ignorant as the rest of them The Atheist was in the lions den on that show.
"lets welcome our guests, maybe some of you dont wanna welcome them..." I bet thats never been said to any other guest on any talkshow; what an ugly thing to say
Oprah cleverly manipulates the audience to be on her side. She knows that saying the hateful thing she said appeals to her anti-atheist audience. (You can tell they're stupid by the inane questions they asked of the atheist "guests"). Oprah, always the opportunist, uses her Introduction to turn the audience against her guests, because she hates atheists. She's shown that every time someone says they're agnostic or atheist. I have no respect for Oprah. She excels at only one thing: making money. But she is no intellectual or deep thinker and constantly shows her shallowness as a person. She never speaks about history, literature (except the silly books she pushes), the arts, science, architecture, etc. I have little respect for someone who doesn't spend time learning things that great thinkers have contributed to culture over centuries of civilization. She only knows which celebrity is doing what to who and how to get people to buy what she endorses. Oprah is a product of our poor schools and a product of religious indoctrination. Anyone who thinks, sooner or later, will start to question the religion they grew up with. But she is not a thinking person - in any meaningful sense. She is incredibly shallow. But she is perfect for TV because Americans are generally not bright. America scores 40th in science scores among nations. 40th! Yet I never heard her encourage children to study STEM (science, technology, engineering and math). She should do that on EVERY SHOW as a public service to 'give back' to the country that made her rich. She's too busy selling her wares to encourage the youth of America to study subjects that will make them competitive in this global village of a world.
I'm gonna' get a bit overtly political but I think there's something a bit interesting to discuss here; can you imagine how such a caustic reception would be taken nowadays if, say, Oprah invited a trans support group and mocked them openly in the same manner in the current age? Oprah would be obliterated and boycotted by not just the media but by celebrities alike. What gets me is that the LGBT community claims to have *always* gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to societal acceptance but you just don't see it nowadays. Not only that, you have fun facts stating in some cultures it was seen as sacred to be LGBT in the distant past- so which is it? Atheists had been mistreated just the same, but I find it rather interesting how quickly the general hatred for them turned- I see more skeptics around in 2019 than I did ten years ago and hell, I've lived in the U.S. south. But despite that you never saw atheist communities bully the media and such into this social change- it was a natural progression. And yeah- it is bullying. Cancel culture, social justice, MeToo- it's all the same face that use bullying tactics to get the sort of social change that a minority want. I find it odd that the non-religious community didn't resort to such petty tactics, but yet ask anyone in the streets if they'll accept an atheist or a LGBT person and I'll bet more times than not that they would- hell, thry'd probably even be one themselves! I dunno, I just find it peculiar is all. Sorry for the rambling.
This was shameful on Oprah's part. She allowed the audience to interrupt the guests repeatedly, was clearly showing a bias towards religion, and her comments to her invited guests were a bit rude. This was not a discussion; this was an attack.
Damned right it was an attack! My liking for Ophra almost evaporated. Especially after she promoted quacks like drs oz, Phil and chopra and Charlestons like James redfield
Daniel Mcgrath If you are an atheist you can't account for the uniformity in nature and there is no answer to Humes scepticism. And therefore in theory you have no grounding principle to assert anything
@Mark Solezo Hi Mark You making a knowledge claim about myself but at the same time agreed you cannot know anything for certain. The statement you made was pretty much "I can't justify my claims but neither can you" doesn't make sense. Cause if you can't know anything (epistemologically) speaking you can't make a statement about what I can know.
@Mark Solezo hey mate :) Yeah that's a good point. I am not saying I know everything for certain. But I am saying that God knows everything for certain. And has revealed some truths to us so that we can know those for certain. I am saying my epistemology is revelational. And the issue is when you deny that you are left in a world of an infinite regress e.g. how do I know A. Well because of B. The only way to provide a valid justification for how you know things and to escape that vicious circle is to ground your belief in God as the nessacary starting point for how you can know anything at all :)
@Mark Solezo Hi :) Knowledge is a justified true belief. My justification for knowing certain things, like God exists, is, God revealed this to me. For you to deny this you would have to say that it is logically impossible for God to exist and for Him to reveal certain things to us. This is my nessacary presuppatation (NP). My starting point, foundation. You can deposit any other presuppatition if you wish; like a million entities, Allah, or a banana. But that particular presup won't be valid and we can get into that if you like. Let's just be clear, my ultimate authority (AU) is God. And to note: all ultimate authorities are circular. You also have a AU , which isn't God, your own autonomous thinking. God says everyone knows He exists because He has made it evident to us. But we surpess that truth because we love our sin more than Him. We can talk about contradictions at some point, but let's not got to stretched in the convo :) Hope your having a good day:)
Hi Mark, Your exactly right, and I know this may be frustrating. But, my ultimate authority is Gods Word. Which is circular I know, begging the question. But when we are talking about worldviews the fact I am trying to highlight is that we all have an ultimate authority, which in the end will be circular. And you have an ultimate authority for how you know things, which I am let to hear. So when you or I make a knowledge claim we are standing on a foundation. In these sorts of conversations we assert a certain foundation and then we try and show how that foundation alone is able to make sense of reality. Its not just a blind assertion I am making, but course its an assertion, but thats what happens in a debate. You assert something, I assert something else. Then we begin to discuss what foundations are based on those assertions, and move forward in doing that. Also, another important point to make when discussing worldviews is that the evidence presented is not neutral. The evidence is interpreted by our presuppositions. So in light of that, and in answer to your first question about contradictions. Before we can discuss the evidence around those issues we have to look at the presuppositions you bring to the table. If we both have different presupps then whats the point in discussing the evidence because we will both come to different conclusions, the only sensible option is to first talk about our presuppositions. When they say something like “look at all these contradictions you are being illogical”. I am going to reply, well do you believe in logic? Cause you have to say that is not logical and you have to justify logic first according to your worldview before you can accuse me of anything that is not logical. Romans 11:36 says from Him through Him and too Him are all things. Jesus Christ owns logic, He owns science, He owns morality. Before we can discuss issues you have with Gods Word and my beliefs, first you have to justify your beliefs even about argumentation itself. Contradictions are violations of logic, so the question to you is. What is your justification for logic in your worldview?
You can see such a drastic difference in attitude, emotion, and respect between the panelists and audience. The atheists were very respectful, informed, and eloquent. The guests perfectly demonstrated the knee-jerk, emotionally charged overreaction that the religious have when they are challenged. As a child of the 70's and 80's, I am shocked to see that a program like this was broadcast during that time. And I am so impressed with the panelists. Annie Laurie Gaylor was wonderful.
Annie (and Annie's mom) and Dan did a great job specially in those days when being an Atheist was more taboo. Very proud of you guys and you have come very far since. Best to you guys!
@@2011littleguy yeah most people are ignorant of many things because of a lack of knowledge. Religion and politics are probably the top two annoying one's for me. People grow up believing all kinds of things that are not true. I'm an ex Mormon so I naturally thought like Mormons do until I eventually woke up to reality of why do I believe that way. I didn't believe it by learning mormonism on my own, i just took it for granted it's the only true religion because all other Mormons said it was. You hear this over and over and soon you accept it as fact. Same thing applies to ALL religions
The dupers that run the scam have had thousands of years to perfect their depraved craft. You were a victim. But now you are just going to have to get used to enjoying life and not having fear, guilt and self loathing as your constant companion.
Its laughable hearing the religious people trying to defend their faith. Most haven't even read their own holy book but go around telling you about the universe. 37:07 this woman actually agreed that the bible is right and women are whores who turn people from religion. Then she got a round of applause.
Ryan Yates I think Oprah was just as credulous as the rest of them, although she was respectfulish, she was obviously perturbed about it. I got the impression that she wanted to "give them a piece of her mind".
I just watched Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor on The Atheist Experience. Both of them are amazing and incredibly honest people. The great work they are doing is something we should all be thankful for.
I'm so happy Dan & Annie got together. He's still a minister. A minister for reason. And she's still a feminist. I'm a white male, & I've been a feminist all my life, that's because I've always loved & respected women.
their organization helped me, fed me, clothed me, and gave me money when my church and family kicked me out for being gay. indebted to Anne in particular for the rest of my life.
I find Oprah frustrating. Believes in all manner of silliness. She could have been a bit more supportive to her guests. The audience simply trots out the usual Christian "responses" and then Oprah seconds them.
Your run-of-the-mill Xtian has never read their oh-so-holy book. They get the Cliff notes and talking points verbally from their preachers and that's it. Trying to read 17th century English is beyond most of them, so they remain ignorant of the lies, contradictions and immoralities therein. I HAVE SPOKEN ;-)
Funny how she suggested they were trying to impose their belief on people for talking about what they believe. By that reasoning, Oprah was trying to impose their belief on people by giving them an audience. It's funny how it's ok for her to put these people out there, but the idea of these people putting themselves out there is somehow bad. Special pleading abounds.
wresler103 Oprah has used her show to ":impose" her beliefs onto others and is always quick to "correct" people when they express a belief she does not hold herself. Oprah also treated Dan Barker as if he was an atheist all along during his ministerial years; she implies he was dishonest in his career like a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak. Funny how she doesn't recognize her own dishonesty.
Wow. It's amazing the stranglehold Christianity has had on our nation. Watching this has really made me appreciate the progress we have made in the last 30 years. The hold of religion is still strong but not like this craziness...wow!!! the oohs and ahs of disbelief from the crowd at rational statements from Barker and company say quite a lot.
Progress?! Our society is in moral decay due to society turning from God and focusing on self and continual narcissism...do as thou wilt has been wreaking havoc.
@@RS54321 Morality does not come from God. It’s the other way around. People always create gods to be a reflection and a justification for their existing moral systems.
Oprah just doesn't get this whole atheism thing. I guess it's not really her fault, faith has played such a massive part in her life. You can hear audible gasps in the audience at the atheist.. even though she is speaking total sense. Although this was filmed in 1984, even today she is still hostile towards the thought of not believing in a God.
Without a god, Oprah can't claim to be a special person, born to go on tv and save people with her unique and special powers. Her covert narcissism is exposed when god is pulled out from under her.
Annie Laurie Gaylor is awesome! I can't believe she was so composed, articulate, and confident with her position in a time when it must have been practically unheard of to be an atheist... that was 1984 for gods sake!! (pardon my choice of words for emphasis lol). Her remarkable mother must have been such an inspiration to her. And that was quite the lucky night for Dan to have found such a beautiful and strong wife that night. :-)
This is a great find and what tremendous courage Dan Barker had at the time to go on OW when this was a very unpopular opinion. Reason, logic, kindness and compassion is all you need.....
+Volound Well obviously at least a rudimentary brain is required to develop a moral system. Otherwise things like worms would have moral systems instead of just animals with larger brains, like dogs and monkeys.
CrimsonVoid once again, necessary vs sufficient. it is also necessary for the universe to exist. nobody thinks to point out that a universe is required to develop morals.
Amazing that some adults in the US still believe in a supernatural celestial dictator God who has vanity/ anger management issues. Great to hear Dan and Annie who later married.
It's so easy for me to be an open atheist where I live and in the current climate, so it's easy to forget or not recognise how brave these people were and are.
@@RS54321Ppl like u, who think they know the unknowable, r probably the most ignorant of all. Do u think ur fighting J’s battles for him.? Why does J need an army? Why should anyone believe anything u say after this dismay of emotional/intellectual smugness and vacuity?
@@RS54321I don’t think even many Jewish scholars now think that the whole nation of Israel was actually enslaved in Egypt or that god gave Palestine to the Israelites. They were probably another Canaanite ppl using the books to justify warring against their neighbors
That was so difficult to watch. I find it frustrating how many times Annie wasn't allowed to respond to some of the questions. An audience member would ask a question and she would try to respond and then Oprah would jump in with another question before she could answer. Rude!
When Dan lost his faith he'd never even met an Atheist. What de-converted him was the fact that when he became sought after Pastor he started to encounter Christian pastors of other denominations and found they all had often radically different views.
zzapper zzapper , Different views on everything EXCEPT on how to extract money from the congregants. They all agreed that 10% plus extra offerings was the perfect setup to keep them coughing it up for years.
It's always a constant surprise to me how little religious people comprehend beyond their own narrow views and how threatened and angry they become when challenged to do the one thing at which they should be expert - justify their religion.
I think I'm in love with Annie Gaylor. It twists my mind that the most oppressed people by religion are their greatest adherent. Black people and women. Black people who were taught their religion from the cut of a bull whip and women who hated and misogynised throughout the Bible.
There were more women (including Black women) in the audience b/c it's the Oprah show and it drew these demographics...your ignorance is overt. If you think the God of the Bible oppressed women, including those not white, you are a fool and have no understanding of the texts or God's character.
8:23 the very moment that Annie Laurie Gaylor fell in love with Dan Barker. Here it is 35 years later and they're still in love doing amazing work protecting this country from an ever encroaching Theocracy.
I'm so happy Annie and Dan hooked up. I can only imagine the love and support they have provided each other with over the last 30 years. Thank you for hosting this video, TCP and thank you to Annie and Dan for all the work that you have done to provide people with a warm and welcome safe haven from religious persecution.
I love the whole "These people shouldn't be pushing their beliefs on us" all the while throwing stones and arguing that "those atheists" are silly and wrong for not being Christians.
This is an old show, but the religious speak the same nonsense they do today. Funny how they get really upset when their faith is challenged and they feel intimidated! Typical. I think Laurie, her mom, Dan and the lady from England were excellent!
I wonder how many of the Christians in the audience were sitting there thinking about how "persecuted" they were for having to sit there and listen to the guests. It is really interesting watching some the audience members as they actually think about this stuff for the first time.
It's fascinating how the arguments haven't changed. You could listen to an episode from Atheist Experience today and hear the exact same words on both sides. And yet so many people have changed sides in their personal lives.
Holy shit, I remember Dan Barker talking about this and have literally been waiting to see it for years! Thank you so much for posting! Damn, can't even imagine Oprah doing a show like this nowadays...
The crowd is just like Plato's cave dwellers that haven't yet been dragged up into the sunlight, revolting at the very thought (most for the first time), that what they have been made to believe their entire lives, could possibly be anything other than fact.
"So you believe that you have total control over your life, you're responsible for what happens to you and there's nothing else..." FUCK YEAH I DO!!! Having control over your life (no one can really have total control, yet) and being responsible is the hallmark of a mature and successful person. Pretty much the central theme of every self-help kinda book that were written by truly successful people. Any respect I've had for Oprah in the past is completely gone.
It's fun to see that the believers' arguments haven't changed in 30 years. Maybe it should be taught in high school philosophy why pascal's wager fails and what we can base our morals on.
Let me get this straight - Winfrey invites these people onto her show under the pretence of discussing their institution and helpline, once they're on the show she proceeds to berate and insult them, becoming more and more abrasive with each passing minute, accusing them of believeing things they never said they believe (i.e that no god or gods exist), and when all of this fails to rile her 'guests' up, she has the gall to act like the Atheists are rude, have somehow sneaked on to her show, 'hijacked' it, and are using her prescious air-time to preach Atheism to her audience. The depth of her dishonesty and ignorance is truly astounding. At no point in the first half of this 'interview' do the Atheists exhibit anything but the utmost respect and politeness, in the face of rudeness, snide remarks and accusations. They came onto the show to discuss their helpline, or whatever you want to call it, and perhaps create awareness for it, and all she can do is continually accuse them of trying to force people to give up their religion, which is impossible as you have to PHONE the helpline yourself in order for them to help you, no one who doesn't already _want_ to get rid of their religion will phone them up in the first place - Winfrey knows this, but she can't antagonise something so harmless, so she needs to misrepresent it to her audience in order to appear just in her aggressive and disgusting attitude towards them. She's a fucking parasite.
Dan Barker is so damn well spoken. His arguments ring true even 34 years later. I'm not sure if him and Carl Sagan knew each other or if they were friends, but I see so much of Carl in Dan. The curiosity, the respect for science, the clarity of their thoughts. If only Neil Tyson could have the same courage and clarity, instead of being afraid of being defined as an atheist.
I remember having a lot of blind faith, so much so that when we learned about other gods in school, I remember laughing easily at how ridiculous they were, while never for a second considering that what I believed was just as ludicrous, and that it had no good evidence. I also remember that when I heard about how pilots who went into a device that simulated zero Gravity, suddenly started have 'near death experiences', it scared me to my core, and I did the mental version of a kid sticking their fingers in their ears and I refused to even THINK about it. It made my heart physically hurt wherever I'd remember, & I would not even CONTEMPLATE the meaning it might have for the world I was living in. How depressing is that, to hold a world view that just makes you shut down any and all reasonable and rational thought? I'm 40 years old, and I've only been an atheist since I was 38. My critical thinking skills are impaired in places. I had to re-mourn every loved one I've ever lost, all while painfully aware of my finite existence during the process. Still, I don't miss nightmares of hell, and feeling like lower than garbage for things like enjoying sex, or saying a good curse word when I felt angry or upset. I still don't regret it, but I sure hate how much of my life was wasted on it.
Gaylor met Barker when both were guests on AM Chicago, hosted by Oprah Winfrey, in 1984. They began dating six months later and married in 1987. They have a daughter. Amazing. Thank you guys for standing up for what you believe in! These same people on the show were ready to nail you on the cross for your belief that was different from theirs. I cant imagine when it was 50 years ago. 200 years ago, they would have burned you in at the stake in the town square in front of children!
Hector Defendi I'm even more grieved for black folks... I'm black and I say they are the most deluded group of people in religion... they are truly a long ways away from being a people of self determination.... to answer your question I think naturally they are a spiritual and hopeful people and the reality of nothingness after life scares most blacks
One thing that strikes me about this video is how much more effective atheists today are at addressing the sorts of objections that the theists were offering. Conversely, the objections the theists raised have changed little over the years. I suppose that's attributable to the internet and the improved ability of atheists to collaborate, practice and hone their arguments. Back then, each atheist was something of an island unto themselves with little opportunity to test their debate skills. Not so today. Today's Dan Barker would have put in a much stronger performance than the Dan Barker of yesteryear was able to muster. Scientific advancement aside, I realize that there's really nothing in this debate that wasn't raised by great thinkers in centuries past, but the ability of the current crop of prominent atheists to, how shall I put it... destroy theists, is much improved.
I think the scientific discoveries have really propelled atheist's arguments light years ahead of where they were 30 years ago. The gaps are getting progressively smaller and smaller, and the god of the gaps is diminishing at an exponential rate. The downside to that is the fundamentalists are behaving like injured, cornered animals, becoming much more fanatical and trying even harder to exert their power on our political leaders.
Part of it too is that you really can't stray very far from the basic set of arguments as a religious person, because you get dangerously close to tempting your own mind to start questioning that religion. The attacks are the same because they have to be.
The whole morality thing of people becoming animals without the control of a god is horrific and a great judgement on the _"Christians"_ who believe that. Albert Einstein put it very well: _“A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”_
Albert Einstein was a Christian who believed in God. Just kidding! I've heard that argument too many times simply on the "God doesn't play dice" quote that Christians love so much. I've never heard this quote before. Thanks for posting! I'll add it to my bag-o-reality.
Make-Make Albert Einstein was in no way a Christian. You would even be pushed to call him a deist . *_"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this, but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."_* (24 March 1954 in a letter to J. Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant) also (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press) *_“I am a Deeply, religious Non-believer. This is a somewhat new kind of religion. The idea of a personal god is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”_* - (17 December 1952. In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich) *_“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable but still primitive legends, which are nevertheless pretty childish.”_* I think those quotes are fairly specific. He did not appear to even think of himself as a Jew, at least not in the religious sense. *_“For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions... And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people.”_* It's about time this false claim from Religious people that Einstein was a believer should be squashed forever, but I doubt it will.
Make-Make That is good to see. Never accept anything you are told without checking it. The motto of The Royal Society, the oldest continuously active scientific body in the world, is: *Nullius in Verba* Which roughly translates as: "Take no-one's word for it." I think that is a good idea to work from.
Am watching this in 2019 and I must applaud those nonbelievers/atheists for they were decades ahead of their time. You can just see that from the questions the audience were asking, they had no clue and their ignorance was epic.
Then Dan Barker (the preacher) and Annie Gaylor (the blonde woman) got married after meeting at this debate. Pretty awesome if you ask me :) Sources: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Laurie_Gaylor
This is such an infuriating thing to watch. HOW DID THE MOUNTAINS GET THERE? I wish we had a geologist there to establish how the heat in the center of the earth had an influence on that.
+nadoeloiskat That's called a loophole dipshit. All well manufactured religions have them. Convince people that you're a sinner, that you're bad, you're unworthy piece of maggot shit from the day you were born... tell them the only way out is by believing a whole bunch of rubbish, rules and made up stories from some old tome written by idiots (by todays standards) some 2000 years ago 100 years after the events actually happened without evidence aka. faith/ignorance...... or else you will go to hell and you will suffer, burn and perish for all eternity!!! Oh yeah, BTW god totally loves you!... AND HE NEEDS MONEY!!!
+nadoeloiskat ...So who is it that "Being weak and sinful - but still loves living in sin"... that god uses Hell for? You or me? I don't believe in god _or_ Hell - but if it does exist, I guess I'll see you there. I hope you don't snore!
It astounds me that the atheists are sitting there calm and polite, and are being grilled by loud and ignorant people on how moral they are.
True. It sounds like every time an atheist is trying to talk about their position and the reason., these loud and ignorant people feel the need to get insulting and loud
CosmicApe2 That’s because religion is for scared little children and moral idiots.
@@incognito5109I remember watching this on TV (as a repeat) and being struck by how cool, calm and collected the 3 atheists were and how loud and angry the others (including Ophra-my respect for her has really dimmed over the years) were
As a person of color, I can't understand why black people are oblivious to the fact that the same holy book they follow is the same book used to endorse slavery.
I've very frequently been quite puzzled by this seemingly obvious contradiction. I'm thinking "you seriously believe in a god that not only approves of slavery, but at times encourages it, and gives purchasing guidelines, not to mention explaining the extent to which you can beat them?!"
This is equally puzzling to me
bible doesnt endorse slavery ...only idiots say that crap
@@mrluke13 You're the idiot. 1 Corinthians 7:21
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you-although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
1 Peter 2:16
16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.
1 Peter 2:18
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
1 Timothy 1:10
10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
1 Timothy 6:1
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
Colossians 3:22
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
Colossians 4:1
1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
Deuteronomy 23:15
15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master.
Deuteronomy 24:7
7 If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.
Ephesians 6:5
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Ephesians 6:9
9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Exodus 21:2
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
Exodus 21:7
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.
Exodus 21:32
32 If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death.
Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:1
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Exodus 21:16
16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.
Leviticus 25:39
39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves.
Luke 4:18
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,because he has anointed meto proclaim good news to the poor.He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisonersand recovery of sight for the blind,to set the oppressed free,
Philemon 1:16
16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.
Proverbs 22:16
16 One who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and one who gives gifts to the rich-both come to poverty.
Titus 2:9-10
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Exodus 21:26-27
26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.
1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves. These are the things you are to teach and insist on.
Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
@Timothy Mostad I try to make my point using as little evidence as possible.
These people are my heroes. I can't imagine how difficult it was to be an outspoken atheist in the 80s.
SAMO Muffucka Absolutely true
Oh yes, they are real heroes!!!
You can't even be an outspoken atheist NOW. Yea, I can't imagine how much harder it would have been back then. Keep going further back and you would have been guaranteed to be murdered for even hinting you are an atheist. In some countries, you currently would be. Atheists are hated more than child-molesters. Child-molesters get their own building in every town, are protected from any responsibility of their actions, and don't have to pay taxes. Some child-molesters tend to gain great power in politics.
I don't know of any kind of person more feared of than an atheist (the most intelligent beings in history).
Firstly, allow me to congratulate you on getting away with that username, and secondly, I completely agree with your statement.
@@ericconnor708 Another confused atheist. Why would you want to be outspoken about your beliefs to begin with? Keep your beliefs to yourself and you have nothing to worry about. You're lying about Atheists being murdered simply because. That's absurd. Even today you can't be an outspoken atheist? Says who? I don't recall a single atheist being targeted for that reason. The internet is rampant with atheists, numerous atheists do nothing but travel and debate in a public forum, I've never heard of any issues. The issue I see is that atheists that host in this forum are rude and vile. The comment section is loaded with slander and hatred. Outrageous claims are made regularly, like the claim that you made.
"Don't tell me we come from apes, then don't tell me I came from a man's rib" lol funniest line ever.
In that woman's case, it's true.
Oprah should be ashamed of herself supposed to be wise oh I had an opinion that she where but when it came to religion she was just as ignorant as the rest of them The Atheist was in the lions den on that show.
Great
This is the Show where Dan met his future wife, Annie Laurie. Love at first sight, he said. Lovely.
Yep, you can see it at 8:22!
@@daithiocinnsealach1982 ohh wow I hadn't figured out this was the same Anne who became his wife
"lets welcome our guests, maybe some of you dont wanna welcome them..."
I bet thats never been said to any other guest on any talkshow; what an ugly thing to say
I think a similar thing was said before Jackie Robinson took to the field as the first black professional baseball player . . . .
Yep. That completely stopped me in my tracks. That showed her bias against them before her guests had said a thing.
Oprah cleverly manipulates the audience to be on her side. She knows that saying the hateful thing she said appeals to her anti-atheist audience. (You can tell they're stupid by the inane questions they asked of the atheist "guests"). Oprah, always the opportunist, uses her Introduction to turn the audience against her guests, because she hates atheists. She's shown that every time someone says they're agnostic or atheist.
I have no respect for Oprah. She excels at only one thing: making money. But she is no intellectual or deep thinker and constantly shows her shallowness as a person. She never speaks about history, literature (except the silly books she pushes), the arts, science, architecture, etc. I have little respect for someone who doesn't spend time learning things that great thinkers have contributed to culture over centuries of civilization. She only knows which celebrity is doing what to who and how to get people to buy what she endorses.
Oprah is a product of our poor schools and a product of religious indoctrination. Anyone who thinks, sooner or later, will start to question the religion they grew up with. But she is not a thinking person - in any meaningful sense. She is incredibly shallow.
But she is perfect for TV because Americans are generally not bright. America scores 40th in science scores among nations. 40th! Yet I never heard her encourage children to study STEM (science, technology, engineering and math). She should do that on EVERY SHOW as a public service to 'give back' to the country that made her rich. She's too busy selling her wares to encourage the youth of America to study subjects that will make them competitive in this global village of a world.
I'm gonna' get a bit overtly political but I think there's something a bit interesting to discuss here; can you imagine how such a caustic reception would be taken nowadays if, say, Oprah invited a trans support group and mocked them openly in the same manner in the current age? Oprah would be obliterated and boycotted by not just the media but by celebrities alike. What gets me is that the LGBT community claims to have *always* gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to societal acceptance but you just don't see it nowadays. Not only that, you have fun facts stating in some cultures it was seen as sacred to be LGBT in the distant past- so which is it? Atheists had been mistreated just the same, but I find it rather interesting how quickly the general hatred for them turned- I see more skeptics around in 2019 than I did ten years ago and hell, I've lived in the U.S. south. But despite that you never saw atheist communities bully the media and such into this social change- it was a natural progression.
And yeah- it is bullying. Cancel culture, social justice, MeToo- it's all the same face that use bullying tactics to get the sort of social change that a minority want. I find it odd that the non-religious community didn't resort to such petty tactics, but yet ask anyone in the streets if they'll accept an atheist or a LGBT person and I'll bet more times than not that they would- hell, thry'd probably even be one themselves! I dunno, I just find it peculiar is all. Sorry for the rambling.
I remember thinking how churlish Ophra was being
This was shameful on Oprah's part. She allowed the audience to interrupt the guests repeatedly, was clearly showing a bias towards religion, and her comments to her invited guests were a bit rude. This was not a discussion; this was an attack.
Exactly! I was not able to watch this in one go, as it was getting on my nerves! It looked more like an audience for Jerry Springer! LOLOL
Damned right it was an attack! My liking for Ophra almost evaporated. Especially after she promoted quacks like drs oz, Phil and chopra and Charlestons like James redfield
I'm an atheist and they are so brave to do this, well done! :)
Daniel Mcgrath
If you are an atheist you can't account for the uniformity in nature and there is no answer to Humes scepticism. And therefore in theory you have no grounding principle to assert anything
@Mark Solezo
Hi Mark
You making a knowledge claim about myself but at the same time agreed you cannot know anything for certain. The statement you made was pretty much "I can't justify my claims but neither can you" doesn't make sense. Cause if you can't know anything (epistemologically) speaking you can't make a statement about what I can know.
@Mark Solezo hey mate :) Yeah that's a good point. I am not saying I know everything for certain. But I am saying that God knows everything for certain. And has revealed some truths to us so that we can know those for certain. I am saying my epistemology is revelational. And the issue is when you deny that you are left in a world of an infinite regress e.g. how do I know A. Well because of B. The only way to provide a valid justification for how you know things and to escape that vicious circle is to ground your belief in God as the nessacary starting point for how you can know anything at all :)
@Mark Solezo Hi :)
Knowledge is a justified true belief. My justification for knowing certain things, like God exists, is, God revealed this to me. For you to deny this you would have to say that it is logically impossible for God to exist and for Him to reveal certain things to us.
This is my nessacary presuppatation (NP). My starting point, foundation. You can deposit any other presuppatition if you wish; like a million entities, Allah, or a banana. But that particular presup won't be valid and we can get into that if you like.
Let's just be clear, my ultimate authority (AU) is God. And to note: all ultimate authorities are circular. You also have a AU , which isn't God, your own autonomous thinking. God says everyone knows He exists because He has made it evident to us. But we surpess that truth because we love our sin more than Him.
We can talk about contradictions at some point, but let's not got to stretched in the convo :)
Hope your having a good day:)
Hi Mark,
Your exactly right, and I know this may be frustrating. But, my ultimate authority is Gods Word. Which is circular I know, begging the question. But when we are talking about worldviews the fact I am trying to highlight is that we all have an ultimate authority, which in the end will be circular. And you have an ultimate authority for how you know things, which I am let to hear.
So when you or I make a knowledge claim we are standing on a foundation. In these sorts of conversations we assert a certain foundation and then we try and show how that foundation alone is able to make sense of reality. Its not just a blind assertion I am making, but course its an assertion, but thats what happens in a debate. You assert something, I assert something else. Then we begin to discuss what foundations are based on those assertions, and move forward in doing that.
Also, another important point to make when discussing worldviews is that the evidence presented is not neutral. The evidence is interpreted by our presuppositions.
So in light of that, and in answer to your first question about contradictions. Before we can discuss the evidence around those issues we have to look at the presuppositions you bring to the table. If we both have different presupps then whats the point in discussing the evidence because we will both come to different conclusions, the only sensible option is to first talk about our presuppositions.
When they say something like “look at all these contradictions you are being illogical”. I am going to reply, well do you believe in logic? Cause you have to say that is not logical and you have to justify logic first according to your worldview before you can accuse me of anything that is not logical. Romans 11:36 says from Him through Him and too Him are all things. Jesus Christ owns logic, He owns science, He owns morality. Before we can discuss issues you have with Gods Word and my beliefs, first you have to justify your beliefs even about argumentation itself.
Contradictions are violations of logic, so the question to you is. What is your justification for logic in your worldview?
You can see such a drastic difference in attitude, emotion, and respect between the panelists and audience. The atheists were very respectful, informed, and eloquent. The guests perfectly demonstrated the knee-jerk, emotionally charged overreaction that the religious have when they are challenged. As a child of the 70's and 80's, I am shocked to see that a program like this was broadcast during that time. And I am so impressed with the panelists. Annie Laurie Gaylor was wonderful.
Annie (and Annie's mom) and Dan did a great job specially in those days when being an Atheist was more taboo. Very proud of you guys and you have come very far since. Best to you guys!
Yeah back then atheist was synonymous with being called a satanist
@@youtoo2233 Many people still think like that - listen to debates nowadays.
@@2011littleguy yeah most people are ignorant of many things because of a lack of knowledge. Religion and politics are probably the top two annoying one's for me. People grow up believing all kinds of things that are not true. I'm an ex Mormon so I naturally thought like Mormons do until I eventually woke up to reality of why do I believe that way. I didn't believe it by learning mormonism on my own, i just took it for granted it's the only true religion because all other Mormons said it was. You hear this over and over and soon you accept it as fact. Same thing applies to ALL religions
The struggle is the same for people like me
Im Nigerian and even hinting that you're godless could ruin your life
Nothing fails like prayer.
Dan fighting the battle back in the 80s! What a warrior against the plague of religion!
So, people need the 10 Commandments in order to behave? What a sad world we live in.
ragazziita With them all in such a nonsensical order too LMAO
I can't believe I used to be that retarded
The dupers that run the scam have had thousands of years to perfect their depraved craft. You were a victim. But now you are just going to have to get used to enjoying life and not having fear, guilt and self loathing as your constant companion.
@@jjmac3561 lol
It's a sad world they live in. I have no need in my world of a mystical, never present, imaginary God to live a moral life and treat others well.
You can tell these people aren't used to their ideas being challenged. Just a bunch of emotionally driven objections, with no basis in reality.
Its laughable hearing the religious people trying to defend their faith. Most haven't even read their own holy book but go around telling you about the universe. 37:07 this woman actually agreed that the bible is right and women are whores who turn people from religion. Then she got a round of applause.
I think Oprah did a solid job. The guests are retarded though.
Ryan Yates I think Oprah was just as credulous as the rest of them, although she was respectfulish, she was obviously perturbed about it. I got the impression that she wanted to "give them a piece of her mind".
Yeah the atheists are calm, they know the audience is brainwashed
Is it just me or does Oprah seem irritated and offended throughout her responses to the atheists?
+angel dario I was not!
angel dario She has always been a little too holier-than-thou for my liking.
Annie Laurie Gaylor was fantastic. . . . much respect and admiration!
It's like everyone in the audience, including Oprah, has their hands over their ears whenever the guests are speaking any logic.
Wow! Such lack of "christian love" coming out of Oprah!
and from the crowd too...
"Isn't it sad that you believe we just live and die."
What in the world does that have to do with whether or not it's true?
have so much respect for dan barker and Annie laurie gaylor
"we were invited"...BLAM!!
The panel of guests are way ahead of their time. Operas Chicago audience wow. I thought the south was ignorant until I saw this crowd.
Why would the south be ignorant? ?
A lot of people in that audience are from the south. A lot of people left the South and moved to Chicago from the 1940's until the early 1970's.
I just watched Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor on The Atheist Experience. Both of them are amazing and incredibly honest people. The great work they are doing is something we should all be thankful for.
I'm so happy Dan & Annie got together. He's still a minister. A minister for reason. And she's still a feminist. I'm a white male, & I've been a feminist all my life, that's because I've always loved & respected women.
Dawg same I argue for women's rights all the time I'm a dude and everyone is like ight bitch lol they are joking but I get to them somtimes
was Dan previously married to a christian women
joe skys yeap and she has remarried another preacher. His 4 kids have little religion is their lives
I don't think I've ever been so disappointed in Oprah. This was a disgusting one sided circus and she was the ring leader.
That was my take on it too.
their organization helped me, fed me, clothed me, and gave me money when my church and family kicked me out for being gay. indebted to Anne in particular for the rest of my life.
I find Oprah frustrating. Believes in all manner of silliness. She could have been a bit more supportive to her guests.
The audience simply trots out the usual Christian "responses" and then Oprah seconds them.
The funniest moment I recall from watching Oprah's show in the 80s was the day she declared that she was, indeed, a journalist.
Your run-of-the-mill Xtian has never read their oh-so-holy book. They get the Cliff notes and talking points verbally from their preachers and that's it. Trying to read 17th century English is beyond most of them, so they remain ignorant of the lies, contradictions and immoralities therein. I HAVE SPOKEN ;-)
Funny how she suggested they were trying to impose their belief on people for talking about what they believe. By that reasoning, Oprah was trying to impose their belief on people by giving them an audience. It's funny how it's ok for her to put these people out there, but the idea of these people putting themselves out there is somehow bad. Special pleading abounds.
wresler103 Oprah has used her show to ":impose" her beliefs onto others and is always quick to "correct" people when they express a belief she does not hold herself. Oprah also treated Dan Barker as if he was an atheist all along during his ministerial years; she implies he was dishonest in his career like a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak. Funny how she doesn't recognize her own dishonesty.
I have disliked Oprah ever since I saw this video the first time.
i had no idea that Annie Gaylor married Dan Barker.. the male atheist on this show. they make a great couple.
ANNIE GAYLOR CAN NOT COMPARES WITH TARZAN'S JANE!
I know right. Annie and Dan look very good together. I admire them both
"Do you think I´m a witch?"
Love that!
Atheists: Make sound, reasonable arguments.
Christian's response: "GOD DUN DID IT."
Never heard any yet? Even Dan looked flumoxed on the healing
The lord works in Miss Terrious Waves.
"I have not read the bible cover to cover, but the word of god is TRUE!" HAHAHAHAH woooooo lol haha
My people are stupid
I have read the bible cover to cover multiple times. Doing so objectively was what co evinced me that it was obviously false.
This is painful to watch, the believers are so closed minded!
They have been conditioned to believe a certain way. It happened to me, I was a mormon 40 years
Wow. It's amazing the stranglehold Christianity has had on our nation. Watching this has really made me appreciate the progress we have made in the last 30 years. The hold of religion is still strong but not like this craziness...wow!!! the oohs and ahs of disbelief from the crowd at rational statements from Barker and company say quite a lot.
I saw some statistics on atheism a while back. The US is just 20 years behind the rest of the developed world.
Progress?! Our society is in moral decay due to society turning from God and focusing on self and continual narcissism...do as thou wilt has been wreaking havoc.
@@RS54321 Morality does not come from God. It’s the other way around. People always create gods to be a reflection and a justification for their existing moral systems.
@@russelld2925 Really? I think a few communist regimes would reflect otherwise.
@@RS54321Guy, neither u, I or anyone else knows that atheism is causing moral decay
Annie is beautiful, Dan is a lucky guy
Her intelligence, confidence, and independence are all part of it. They are both fortunate to have each other.
@@RR-mp7hwShe strikes be as being gentle and wise
Oprah just doesn't get this whole atheism thing. I guess it's not really her fault, faith has played such a massive part in her life. You can hear audible gasps in the audience at the atheist.. even though she is speaking total sense. Although this was filmed in 1984, even today she is still hostile towards the thought of not believing in a God.
Without a god, Oprah can't claim to be a special person, born to go on tv and save people with her unique and special powers. Her covert narcissism is exposed when god is pulled out from under her.
Annie Laurie Gaylor is awesome! I can't believe she was so composed, articulate, and confident with her position in a time when it must have been practically unheard of to be an atheist... that was 1984 for gods sake!! (pardon my choice of words for emphasis lol). Her remarkable mother must have been such an inspiration to her. And that was quite the lucky night for Dan to have found such a beautiful and strong wife that night. :-)
This is a great find and what tremendous courage Dan Barker had at the time to go on OW when this was a very unpopular opinion. Reason, logic, kindness and compassion is all you need.....
Saw these two on Atheist experience a few days ago! (5/22/16) They are going to court with theists and kicking ass!
Oh yea...
It‘s a magical Moment, when Dan and Annie met. I‚m from Germany and I love them both. They changed My Life. Thank you
how do we have morals?
well i have this thing... its called a nervous system. it does some cool stuff.
shellfish have a nervous system.
nervous system has nothing whatsoever to do with morality.
I don't think that's true. If we didn't have our nervous system we wouldn't be able to do anything, moral or immoral.
CrimsonVoid necessary vs sufficient conditions.
+Volound Well obviously at least a rudimentary brain is required to develop a moral system. Otherwise things like worms would have moral systems instead of just animals with larger brains, like dogs and monkeys.
CrimsonVoid once again, necessary vs sufficient. it is also necessary for the universe to exist. nobody thinks to point out that a universe is required to develop morals.
Dan is an adorable man. Love him and his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor
Amazing that some adults in the US still believe in a supernatural celestial dictator God who has vanity/ anger management issues.
Great to hear Dan and Annie who later married.
It's so easy for me to be an open atheist where I live and in the current climate, so it's easy to forget or not recognise how brave these people were and are.
They won't feel so brave standing before God on judgment day.
@@RS54321 well, that's what you think. They're really not worried about such silly tales.
@@w8m4n I know they're not worried about it, unfortunately. It doesn't matter if I think it or you call it a 'silly tale'-truth is truth.
@@RS54321Uttering that stupid old canard yet again for the umpteenth time was certainly not brave, or reasonable of u
@@RS54321Ppl like u, who think they know the unknowable, r probably the most ignorant of all. Do u think ur fighting J’s battles for him.? Why does J need an army? Why should anyone believe anything u say after this dismay of emotional/intellectual smugness and vacuity?
Any Black person who believes in the Bible cannot complain about the injustice of slavery.
You might want to read a certain book called Exodus.
@@RS54321I don’t think even many Jewish scholars now think that the whole nation of Israel was actually enslaved in Egypt or that god gave Palestine to the Israelites. They were probably another Canaanite ppl using the books to justify warring against their neighbors
'That;s why we let you say them.' We 'let' you? Whoa Oprah! When did our free speech rights become permissions you grant?!
Yeah WTF!? As a black woman with a TV show she can say that and mean it?
A whole lot of "Its true for me." going on in this audience. It's amazing how many people are unable to even grasp the concept of an objective truth.
@mike stambaugh That doesn’t even mean anything. Truth is ‘that which conforms to reality.” Defining truth as Jesus is a tautology.
Holy Shit...Annie Laurie Gaylor...I can see why Dan Barker fell in love with her. Damn.
Great video. Thank you for posting. It is interesting that people have been having these conversations on TV for this long.
That was so difficult to watch. I find it frustrating how many times Annie wasn't allowed to respond to some of the questions. An audience member would ask a question and she would try to respond and then Oprah would jump in with another question before she could answer. Rude!
Annie Laurie Gaylor was and is such a sweet heart. :D
When Dan lost his faith he'd never even met an Atheist. What de-converted him was the fact that when he became sought after Pastor he started to encounter Christian pastors of other denominations and found they all had often radically different views.
zzapper zzapper ,
Different views on everything EXCEPT on how to extract money from the congregants. They all agreed that 10% plus extra offerings was the perfect setup to keep them coughing it up for years.
The presence of Christopher Hitchens with his word smithing superiority would have been quite fitting here.
It's always a constant surprise to me how little religious people comprehend beyond their own narrow views and how threatened and angry they become when challenged to do the one thing at which they should be expert - justify their religion.
This is the first time Dan met Annie...they eventually married. Sweet.
I think I'm in love with Annie Gaylor.
It twists my mind that the most oppressed people by religion are their greatest adherent.
Black people and women.
Black people who were taught their religion from the cut of a bull whip and women who hated and misogynised throughout the Bible.
There were more women (including Black women) in the audience b/c it's the Oprah show and it drew these demographics...your ignorance is overt. If you think the God of the Bible oppressed women, including those not white, you are a fool and have no understanding of the texts or God's character.
8:23 the very moment that Annie Laurie Gaylor fell in love with Dan Barker. Here it is 35 years later and they're still in love doing amazing work protecting this country from an ever encroaching Theocracy.
17:18 _"I plan on reading the whole bible if Jesus doesn't return soon"_
It's been 35 years since this aired. Wonder if she's read it yet.
"How did ya get here?"-----------Short answer: My parents had sex. Long Answer: Evolution by natural selection over millions of years.
I'm so happy Annie and Dan hooked up. I can only imagine the love and support they have provided each other with over the last 30 years. Thank you for hosting this video, TCP and thank you to Annie and Dan for all the work that you have done to provide people with a warm and welcome safe haven from religious persecution.
I love the whole "These people shouldn't be pushing their beliefs on us" all the while throwing stones and arguing that "those atheists" are silly and wrong for not being Christians.
This is an old show, but the religious speak the same nonsense they do today. Funny how they get really upset when their faith is challenged and they feel intimidated! Typical. I think Laurie, her mom, Dan and the lady from England were excellent!
quantumleap8824 agreed, pretty much all of the theist and atheist arguments of today are present in this one episode from the 80s.
Oprah- Not getting it for 30 years
Probably the first time on TV for Mister Barker ! THX a lot for sharing it.
I wonder how many of the Christians in the audience were sitting there thinking about how "persecuted" they were for having to sit there and listen to the guests.
It is really interesting watching some the audience members as they actually think about this stuff for the first time.
8:22 Annie giving Dan the eye.
squ34ky2 Lol, it does look like it, naughty girl.
Annie totally checking Dan out at 8:23
just a great show, thanks for posting!
It's fascinating how the arguments haven't changed. You could listen to an episode from Atheist Experience today and hear the exact same words on both sides. And yet so many people have changed sides in their personal lives.
36:00 Oprah says "I would totally kill you if I didn't believe" (paraphrasing). She seems nice.
When Dan was speaking, I loved the look Annie Laurie shot him... pure admiration.
And they ended up married. Best story ever. Love these guys
Holy shit, I remember Dan Barker talking about this and have literally been waiting to see it for years! Thank you so much for posting! Damn, can't even imagine Oprah doing a show like this nowadays...
Wow it's very interesting to see Dan Barker so young :)
The crowd is just like Plato's cave dwellers that haven't yet been dragged up into the sunlight, revolting at the very thought (most for the first time), that what they have been made to believe their entire lives, could possibly be anything other than fact.
Jeez, could Oprah just try to hide her contempt, just a little bit, maybe.
lol ikr
So brilliant and so well spoken, even back in the 80s! Well done, ladies!
And Dan too! I commented that before Dan came out!
"So you believe that you have total control over your life, you're responsible for what happens to you and there's nothing else..."
FUCK YEAH I DO!!! Having control over your life (no one can really have total control, yet) and being responsible is the hallmark of a mature and successful person. Pretty much the central theme of every self-help kinda book that were written by truly successful people.
Any respect I've had for Oprah in the past is completely gone.
It's fun to see that the believers' arguments haven't changed in 30 years. Maybe it should be taught in high school philosophy why pascal's wager fails and what we can base our morals on.
Let me get this straight - Winfrey invites these people onto her show under the pretence of discussing their institution and helpline, once they're on the show she proceeds to berate and insult them, becoming more and more abrasive with each passing minute, accusing them of believeing things they never said they believe (i.e that no god or gods exist), and when all of this fails to rile her 'guests' up, she has the gall to act like the Atheists are rude, have somehow sneaked on to her show, 'hijacked' it, and are using her prescious air-time to preach Atheism to her audience.
The depth of her dishonesty and ignorance is truly astounding.
At no point in the first half of this 'interview' do the Atheists exhibit anything but the utmost respect and politeness, in the face of rudeness, snide remarks and accusations.
They came onto the show to discuss their helpline, or whatever you want to call it, and perhaps create awareness for it, and all she can do is continually accuse them of trying to force people to give up their religion, which is impossible as you have to PHONE the helpline yourself in order for them to help you, no one who doesn't already _want_ to get rid of their religion will phone them up in the first place - Winfrey knows this, but she can't antagonise something so harmless, so she needs to misrepresent it to her audience in order to appear just in her aggressive and disgusting attitude towards them.
She's a fucking parasite.
Dan Barker is so damn well spoken. His arguments ring true even 34 years later. I'm not sure if him and Carl Sagan knew each other or if they were friends, but I see so much of Carl in Dan. The curiosity, the respect for science, the clarity of their thoughts. If only Neil Tyson could have the same courage and clarity, instead of being afraid of being defined as an atheist.
Any believers in the audience who have since changed their minds?
thankyou to the brave secular humanist on the panel!
I remember having a lot of blind faith, so much so that when we learned about other gods in school, I remember laughing easily at how ridiculous they were, while never for a second considering that what I believed was just as ludicrous, and that it had no good evidence. I also remember that when I heard about how pilots who went into a device that simulated zero Gravity, suddenly started have 'near death experiences', it scared me to my core, and I did the mental version of a kid sticking their fingers in their ears and I refused to even THINK about it. It made my heart physically hurt wherever I'd remember, & I would not even CONTEMPLATE the meaning it might have for the world I was living in. How depressing is that, to hold a world view that just makes you shut down any and all reasonable and rational thought? I'm 40 years old, and I've only been an atheist since I was 38. My critical thinking skills are impaired in places. I had to re-mourn every loved one I've ever lost, all while painfully aware of my finite existence during the process. Still, I don't miss nightmares of hell, and feeling like lower than garbage for things like enjoying sex, or saying a good curse word when I felt angry or upset. I still don't regret it, but I sure hate how much of my life was wasted on it.
Gaylor met Barker when both were guests on AM Chicago, hosted by Oprah Winfrey, in 1984. They began dating six months later and married in 1987. They have a daughter.
Amazing. Thank you guys for standing up for what you believe in!
These same people on the show were ready to nail you on the cross for your belief that was different from theirs. I cant imagine when it was 50 years ago. 200 years ago, they would have burned you in at the stake in the town square in front of children!
I really could never stand Oprah
Hector Defendi I'm even more grieved for black folks... I'm black and I say they are the most deluded group of people in religion... they are truly a long ways away from being a people of self determination.... to answer your question I think naturally they are a spiritual and hopeful people and the reality of nothingness after life scares most blacks
RE: Pascal's Wager: If god's omniscient wouldn't he know I'm trying to hustle him. Heaven at any cost? Doesn't that sound like greed? Hmmm....
Dan references this event in his losing faith in faith talk. It's here on yt and is pretty good.
One thing that strikes me about this video is how much more effective atheists today are at addressing the sorts of objections that the theists were offering.
Conversely, the objections the theists raised have changed little over the years.
I suppose that's attributable to the internet and the improved ability of atheists to collaborate, practice and hone their arguments. Back then, each atheist was something of an island unto themselves with little opportunity to test their debate skills. Not so today. Today's Dan Barker would have put in a much stronger performance than the Dan Barker of yesteryear was able to muster.
Scientific advancement aside, I realize that there's really nothing in this debate that wasn't raised by great thinkers in centuries past, but the ability of the current crop of prominent atheists to, how shall I put it... destroy theists, is much improved.
I think the scientific discoveries have really propelled atheist's arguments light years ahead of where they were 30 years ago. The gaps are getting progressively smaller and smaller, and the god of the gaps is diminishing at an exponential rate. The downside to that is the fundamentalists are behaving like injured, cornered animals, becoming much more fanatical and trying even harder to exert their power on our political leaders.
Part of it too is that you really can't stray very far from the basic set of arguments as a religious person, because you get dangerously close to tempting your own mind to start questioning that religion. The attacks are the same because they have to be.
The whole morality thing of people becoming animals without the control of a god is horrific and a great judgement on the _"Christians"_ who believe that.
Albert Einstein put it very well:
_“A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”_
Albert Einstein was a Christian who believed in God.
Just kidding! I've heard that argument too many times simply on the "God doesn't play dice" quote that Christians love so much. I've never heard this quote before. Thanks for posting! I'll add it to my bag-o-reality.
Make-Make He was actually a pantheist.
Make-Make Albert Einstein was in no way a Christian. You would even be pushed to call him a deist .
*_"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this, but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."_* (24 March 1954 in a letter to J. Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant) also (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)
*_“I am a Deeply, religious Non-believer. This is a somewhat new kind of religion. The idea of a personal god is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”_* - (17 December 1952. In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich)
*_“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable but still primitive legends, which are nevertheless pretty childish.”_*
I think those quotes are fairly specific.
He did not appear to even think of himself as a Jew, at least not in the religious sense.
*_“For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions... And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people.”_*
It's about time this false claim from Religious people that Einstein was a believer should be squashed forever, but I doubt it will.
ohmygollywow I don't know what a pantheist is. Therefore, I will do the intellectually responsible thing and look it up.
Make-Make That is good to see. Never accept anything you are told without checking it.
The motto of The Royal Society, the oldest continuously active scientific body in the world, is:
*Nullius in Verba*
Which roughly translates as: "Take no-one's word for it."
I think that is a good idea to work from.
Am watching this in 2019 and I must applaud those nonbelievers/atheists for they were decades ahead of their time. You can just see that from the questions the audience were asking, they had no clue and their ignorance was epic.
Then Dan Barker (the preacher) and Annie Gaylor (the blonde woman) got married after meeting at this debate. Pretty awesome if you ask me :)
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Laurie_Gaylor
Amazing people! ❤️ Ex Muslim Atheist here
This is such an infuriating thing to watch. HOW DID THE MOUNTAINS GET THERE? I wish we had a geologist there to establish how the heat in the center of the earth had an influence on that.
Boy you can feel and hear the hostility in Okra's voice. What a good Christian.
Hostile. Like a good caring Christian.
I am a good caring christian and I approve this comment.
+nadoeloiskat That's called a loophole dipshit. All well manufactured religions have them.
Convince people that you're a sinner, that you're bad, you're unworthy piece of maggot shit from the day you were born...
tell them the only way out is by believing a whole bunch of rubbish, rules and made up stories from some old tome written by idiots (by todays standards) some 2000 years ago 100 years after the events actually happened without evidence aka. faith/ignorance...... or else you will go to hell and you will suffer, burn and perish for all eternity!!!
Oh yeah, BTW god totally loves you!... AND HE NEEDS MONEY!!!
+nadoeloiskat
Errr... I think God _DOES_ blame us for our weak sinful nature - why did he (supposedly) create Hell for us??
+nadoeloiskat
...So who is it that "Being weak and sinful - but still loves living in sin"... that god uses Hell for? You or me? I don't believe in god _or_ Hell - but if it does exist, I guess I'll see you there. I hope you don't snore!
If only Hitchens was there...
CRAGIFICATION hell yeah lol. They couldn't take it tho haha. Would of tore the place up, not them.. Hitchens lmao
If Hitchens was there some heads in the audience would be exploding.
And Madalyn
I'm in love with them already :) I wish I had heard of them a long time ago.
Annie is so beautiful i fell inlove with her. until now she is still pretty.
Oprah= "You are on TV, you are promoting atheism are you not?" Panelists- "Um, you invited us on TV to be on your show." Oprah= "Oh yeah."
Dan Barker and the Gaylors are really brave. They really helped pave the way. The audience members are scary. What ignorance.
Just little comment : THIS VIDEO ROCKS !
I was 10 or 11 when this happened!