Hell: Eternal Conscious Torture
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- Eternal conscious torment (ECT) leads to absurdities, but theists can easily avoid these absurdities by abandoning ECT. For example, a believer in ECT must defend the following proposition: "A perfectly good, merciful, just, and loving God superintends the eternal conscious torment of human beings." This proposition is incoherent simply in virtue of the meaning of those words. (The word “superintend” implies responsibility without suggesting that God is directly involved in the minutia of operations.) If a being oversees the eternal torment of humans, that being is not perfectly loving, good, merciful, or just. But these divine attributes are far more central to theism than ECT. Since ECT leads to conflicts with core aspects of theism, and since ECT is not itself a core aspect of theism, theists should not believe ECT.
So, either God doesn't exist, and there isn't anything to worry about; or God exists, and we shouldn't fear eternal conscious torment precisely because the God of theism exists. If God’s nature is anything like theists have traditionally affirmed - good, merciful, just, and loving - eternal conscious torment is not a feature of the world.
Whether atheists or theists are right, there is no reason to be afraid of eternal conscious torment.
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Glenn Peoples vs. Ben Watkins on Hell, Annihilationism, and Universalism • Is Eternal Punishment ...
Ben Watkins - Brief on Hell / 1481677866777649160
Transcript emersongreenblog.wordpress.co...
Listen to and review Counter Apologetics on iTunes / Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Music by ichika Nito & Whalers. Used with permission.
linktr.ee/emersongreen
/ timestamps /
00:00 ECT leads to absurdities
03:45 Scriptural Considerations
05:01 God's Nature
08:39 Is God worse than Hitler?
09:29 Misc. Absurdities
11:33 Is ECT Biblical?
13:24 The Fear of Hell
I am a Christian, but I do agree with you that Eternal Conscious Torment, and hell more generally to be honest, are a massive issue.
I would go so far as to say that the traditional view of hell is a bigger moral issue than even the problem of evil. No perfectly loving God would superintend his children to suffering.
Especially people with other beliefs but believe in the same GOD like jews, muslims, Mormons etc, they aren't going to heaven in a Christian worldview but why? What is the very "evil" thing they did?
David Bentley Hart's book 'that all shall be saved' is a great examination of this whole idea.
You laid out the argument quite clearly. That's one thing I love about your work: you know how to boil things down into succinct arguments and then explain those arguments without a ton of jargon. For a non-philosophy guy like me, it really helps.
Philosophy is how we to see if others as well as well as ourselves anyway. If we're not letting the Holy Spirit teach us, rather than listening to a man, we're not receiving the truth anyway. And if we are then that person must be hearing from the Holy Spirit and we must test them using the word of God. We also must use discernment as the Holy Spirit protects us from false teachings to reject them from within our hearts.
5:01 the Quran as far as I remember explicitly says a number of times that the suffering the damned will be put through in the afterlife is exponentially more severe than anything in this life. Some descriptions of it in the hadith literature are even more sickening. And although in the time of writing this I am not a believer, I haven't figured out a way of successfully suppressing or curing my insane fear of the possibility that such an afterlife is awaiting me or my loved ones. It's an enormous source of stress.
I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping I could help alleviate that fear a little bit through reason, but fear is not always reasonable.
You can't suppress it. The only way to be free from your fear is to receive Jesus through the simplicity of the Gospel.
How to be saved:
Paul told us that the only way to be saved is by faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the cross. -- 'What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." (Romans 4:1-4)
Again, Paul confirmed this in Romans 10 9 through 10 when he writes, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So you see, salvation is simply by trusting what Jesus did in John 3:16 which says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
After you believe this - if you choose to believe it - you are now circumcised and free from the curse of the law, and you now have Liberty in Christ and you are separate from the law, (no longer under the curse of condemnation). As it reads, "Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:1-6)
Again, it is by faith alone that a person is justified and saved - " But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26)
The law CANNOT save anyone from sin - " Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:13-25)
The law does nothing but bring a curse to those who try to trust in themselves for salvation - " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3: 10-14)
Purpose of the law: " What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3: 19-25)
So you see, those who believe are not under law, and they are not under the curse of the law. Jesus made it so easy to be saved. It's not by working to keep salvation or try to gain it because salvation is a free gift. - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 4:4-9)
Once you have believed, you CANNOT lose your salvation, as the apostle Paul says, "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
@@grace_alone_toward_repentance You are trying to take advantage of the wrong religion's psychological scar.
@@egeaydin1308 I'm not, my friend. I love God with all my heart knowing He will send people to hell forever. I love and worship Him, praying in the Spirit, and I adore Him!! ♥️♥️
I desire to seek the lost and bring them into the kingdom because it's God's will moving me, but I also understand that most will not be saved.
Those who are lost don't understand God's grace, and they don't know Him, which means they also don't understand why He puts people in hell forever. My God is merciful and patient for them to come to him, but if they choose not to then I'm afraid that sadly enough, they go into torment forever.
The reason why people make up their own ideas of hell and how God punishes them is because they're not really saved. This allows them to be saved by philosophies and by man teaching something that is contrary to the word of God rather than just receiving the word through the truth by the Holy Spirit.
I used to be like you. I was crippled by my irrational hadephobia, so much so that I sought therapeutic help. I couldn't reason myself out of the fear because I hadn't reasoned myself into it. All I could do was wait for it to pass. And eventually, it did. I no longer even think about it. Maybe that will happen to you, and in fact I'd say it's very likely.
You should read "That all shall be saved" by David Bentley Hart
Excellent video. I came to reject Islam for the very same reason. As you say, the concept of an eternal Hell is incompatible with a Merciful God. (Islam doesn't spend so much time talking about loving God, but it does stress his all encompassing Mercy.)
hell is a silly idea anyway, if you reject god and become satans buddy, why on earth would he torture you? it's another god lie to scare folks.
Prr , it’s not the “very same reason” when it comes to Islam , it’s an appeal to emotion argument
Islam clearly states God’s mercy is conditional
5:98 says “Know that Allah is severe in penalty and that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful” clearly indicates his mercy is conditional on human acts
And whenever Allah says he is merciful it is preceded by something like if you repent , if you done some mistakes bcz you are forced to , if you ask for forgiveness etc..( expect in Bismillah )
Allah doesn’t love the evil doer , and that is perfection , does All loving mean Allah love suffering 🤣?
Idk about Christianity, but when it come to Islam it is appeal to emotion
@@muhammedshanushan3931 Even if love and mercy are conditional, eternal conscious torment is logically incompatible with justice. There cannot logically be a productive purpose to eternal conscious torment, no matter the crime. If you disagree, you haven't actually sat down and thought about the incomprehensibility of infinite time. In fact, I bet you stop yourself from doubting eternal hell out of fear, which ironically makes *you* the emotional one.
@@jaredgreenhouse6603 what made think justice has to be productive ?
@@muhammedshanushan3931 To be productive, it must fulfill a specific purpose. There can be no specific purpose for eternal conscious torment since there is no end-game or end-result. Would you consider it just to subject anyone to that kind of "punishment" for any crime? A "punishment" with no end-game or end-result? How does that not make you a sadist?
Edit: I'll pre-empt any prison analogy to add that LWOP would NOT exist if human beings could live forever. It's *because* human life is finite that LWOP exists. So don't use a prison analogy, they don't work.
5:30 - Eternal conscious torment is actually not very clearly a part of Christianity. Bart Ehrman's book about Hell lays this out pretty well, and it makes sense because the earliest Christians who wrote the Bible considered themselves to be in sects of Judaism, which does not teach ECT.
I agree that ECT is a liability for Christianity, one which I will continue to exploit when faced with Christians who believe it, but I don't really see how it's scripturally sound.
I meant it as a straightforward empirical claim about what Christians believe. You could say the same thing about competing views: "Universalism is a part of Christianity," "Annihilationism is a part of Christianity," etc.
It is very clearly a big part of Christianity. It may not *always* have been a part of Christianity, and it clearly is not a part of all branches. But it is common and important and has been for a very, very long time.
@ Its a clear part with 0 ACTUAL unequivocal proof texts for how you end up there
@@ttownsupreme2183 Sure, but so what? Christianity has never been defined by texts (even if texts have been important). The first Christians *wrote* the texts with whatever beliefs they happened to hold, and modern-day Christians all subscribe to all kinds of beliefs not derived from the Bible, whether it be Hell, the Trinity, or whatever.
my latest craze: satan is at odds with god, if i reject god then i am at odds with god too, so why would satan want to torture his new found friend? hell is not torment at all, it's a pleasure palace surely? me and satan are allies, not enemies.
Excellent refutation. This is a disgusting doctrine that ought to be rejected by every Christian.
Phenomenal work, Emerson! I hadn’t thought about these things for a bit. Definitely a lot of substantive objections to the notion of ETC.
Well said. Couldn't agree more! Thank you.
The thing that sickens me is when I see a UA-cam video where they're supporting eternal torment and in the comments people are saying oh what a loving God, he's so merciful that he gives you time here on Earth to not go to hell, but if you do go to hell you're going to be there for all eternity being tortured, but God loves you. You can't say God loves you and then support eternal torment which is pagan and not biblical at all.
Conditional immortality is the most biblicall view. I studied in depth and im beyond conviced ETC is untrue.
No eventual universal reconciliation is the correct view.no human is discardable trash.
Really enjoying your videos ever since I first discovered your channel. I hope you gain a lot of subs as you totally deserve.
I hope in the future you can do one in annihilationism.
Cheers
Btw. Love your podcast! Thank you.
Fantastic video!
The brilliant outlaw scholar Edward Fudge already destroyed the fundamentalist Evangelicals interpretation of hell.
The Evangelicals called him a outlaw heretic.
They told him that was going to be tortured by YAHWEH.
Rest In Paradise Mr.Edward Fudge
Lot of good points here!
Thanks Emerson, this is brilliant.
oh good god
@@radscorpion8 unlikely 😂
ECT is a huge blind spot in the Church. And I think it makes it easy for many to swing the opposite way and embrace Universal Reconciliation. Yet if you spend any time at all exploring the ideas of both Love & Justice in light of human history as well as the biblical record, neither ECT or UR seems to fit the bill.
Conditional Immortality or Annihilationism is the middle position which definitively answers the question of how God can both love His entire creation and also deal justly with sin.
For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is Eternal Life.
This is conditional
Immortality. That by grace thru faith a subset of humanity is gifted with immortality, whilst the remainder is not gifted with that eternal life but rather face judgement and the second death.
Great Video! Whatever happened to that video about mormonism that was gonna come out?
it's still scheduled (you can find it on my channel). unfortunately, Tarik is a very busy man and we had to push it until next month.
I agree with virtually every word you say here, with one exception. That is that God probably does not exist, me being an ordained but unorthodox Christian minister. You probably know that theologian David Bentley Hart set off a firestorm fairly recently by making an exhaustive and passionate case against what he aptly calls infernalism in his "That All Shall Be Saved."
You are very wise.I believe that everyone will eventually be reconciled to God.each person has unique kinds of purging and purifying they must go through.❤️🔥
Emerson, what do you think about making a video about Meynell's cosmological argument from intelligibility? This argument is often presented by John Lennox, but I've never seen a proper discussion in youtube channels about it (indeed, I didn't even find it in atheistic books, e.g., Oppy, Mackie and etc). The only papers I found criticizing this argument are "Meynell's Arguments for the Intelligibility of the Universe" by Robert Burns and "The Problem of Magic" by Stephen Maitzen.
I don't know if you're interested in this argument, but a nice video about it could be produced, I suppose. :)
If it relies on something like "we wouldn't expect the universe to be intelligible if God didn't exist" then it's a terrible argument. I've never heard anything approaching a justification for the idea that without God, the universe would just be unintelligible chaos. I think the most I've talked about it was in "CA66 Materialism, Consciousness, and Atheism" when addressing an argument from Peter Kreeft.
@@EmersonGreen Various philosophers and theologians - including Aquinas, Leibniz, Bernard Lonergan,
and Hugo Meynell - see evidence for the existence of God in the fact that the universe is intelligible to us, i.e., the fact that we can understand to an impressive degree how the universe works. As Lonergan says, “If the real is completely intelligible, God exists. But the real is completely intelligible. Therefore, God exists”. In Meynell’s words, “If there were not something analogous to human intelligence in the constitution of the world, the world would not be intelligible. But the world is intelligible…. The intelligibility of the world…is perfectly to be accounted for if
the world is due to the fiat of an intelligent will which conceives all possible worlds, and wills the
one which we actually inhabit”.
There are many ways to argue for that. For example, one may argue that the uniformity of nature is a precondition for intelligibility. Or one may use mathematics to make this point "The world is mathematical, and this allows the application of mathematics to the universe. This is a precondition for intelligibility." I think some even make this claim about the laws of logic; without logical laws, the universe wouldn't be intelligible.
Then, the next step is to argue that intelligence is the best explanation of this intelligibility.
Every time I have seen you I have wondered what does pharmacology have to do with the first two?
@@ILoveLuhaidan It has nothing to do with it. I'm interested in all of them.
I’m not afraid of hell. I’m always a little chilly anyway
From a simply a historical context, hell didn’t even exist in the beginning, especially in Judaism. But the idea of justice for those who didn’t live accordingly to the faith, what happens to them?
So the idea of “heaven and hell” came most likely influenced by dualism from the Zoroastrians. And throughout the years the concept of hell and torment has evolved in different religions like Christianity and Islam.
And here we are even in the 21th century having deep philosophical arguments about God and ECT. Good video 👍
I for one am a fan of the gentle guitar riffs next to an open (eternal) fire 9:20
From every logical point of view, you made I completely agree with you. My only discrepancy is the God, part. To me that is the name also. God is, and should always be capitalized. Hence a true believer.
Thank you Mr. Green (do you prefer Emerson?): that was enjoyable, and my first podcast of yours. Hell is, well, endlessly fascinating. Curious, as you are no doubt far more up on the literature: is ECT really losing track with other models among Christians? And if so, do we have any idea how much, what's the rate, determining factors, e.t.c.? That might also be an interesting video topic. Anyway, thanks again. New subscriber here and I am enjoying the content.
I don't think I said ECT is losing out to other models among Christians...which part of the episode are you referring to?
The Pew Research Center has some interesting data on this, if you're interested (search for their Religious Landscape Study). The Barna Group (sort of the Christian Gallup/Pew) has a collected a ton of data on religious trends as well.
@@EmersonGreen Sorry if I was less than clear: I wasn't suggesting that you had- other expressing some preference in that regard. I was more curious in whether you had any data on it one way or the other. I have looked at Pew previously- high quality information on many topic there. Thanks for the mention of the Barna Group- I have heard of them, but haven't checked them out in depth. Thanks.
@@mythosboy yeah Barna is awesome! I've gone down many rabbit holes there
These are pretty good arguments, but what if there is such thing as a genuinely malicious god?
I agree. To which, heaven is out as well because a totally, genuinely, malicious god would punish everyone, not pick and choose his favorites. But nowhere does it say that he is totally malicious, only totally good and just. So why would he punish someone for being stubborn, or punish someone for not going to church all the time. Doesn't seem merciful to me.
There is one argument though that Christian’s argue that you haven’t touched upon - one if there arguments is that we all disobey god and because he is an infinitely good being we have kind of unforgivably offended him and deserve this punishment because even though god is loving he is also just and needs to uphold righteousness but to circumvent the punishment we should receive his loving forgiving mercy comes when we accept his sacrifice for us through Christ blood ? He took on all the punishment we should of received by sacrificing himself or Christ in great pain and misery on the cross and if we don’t accept this one great gift of mercy he has provided for us then we truly deserve his punishments .
Would like to hear peoples opinions on this .
I think that Hell is usefully thought of in terms of meme theory-that is, Dawkins’s original idea, not the internet kind. Consider a religious memeplex with two variants, one including and one excluding the doctrine-of-Hell meme. It seems clear to me that the version with Hell will have a considerable competitive advantage-not so much in attracting followers (since you have to buy in first *before* the argument carries weight), but in retention: if you’re raised to believe in Hell, you have a strong disincentive to critically examine your beliefs lest you risk losing your faith and suffering eternal torment.
I'm a successful business owner. Sure, I lost all my money in two weeks, but you just don't understand what I mean by "successful".
Haha good analogy
I have a full head of hair, only not in the same way as you think. See, I'm bald, but in my imagination, I have beautiful hair.
the idea or horror comes from a fictional book as IN Dante's inferno !!!
I appreciate that you can address these issues in an honest and respectful way. Many apologists and atheists have a hard time with intellectual honesty. Good stuff.
3:19 I know a few people who would push back on your idea of merciful. Calvinists for instance would say he is for whom he chooses
So doesn't "god works in mysterious ways you can't comprehend" pretty much counter your whole argument? :) :) :)
also, god doesn't send me to hell, i choose to reject him is all, so why go to hell anyway, if god isn't sending me there i choose to go to the beach.
Talk to David Artman
seriously though , i don't get this, if satan argued with god and he got kicked out of heaven, why would satan want to torture people who reject god?? surely satan hates christians, not evil heathens? if anyone is going to be thrown in a fiery lake it will be believers, if i reject god (the bastard) surely me and satan are best buddies??
Satan doesn't torture anyone, only God can through separation and eternal death
Sadly, many Christians do believe in eternal torment for the unsaved. I agree that the concept of eternal torment is inconsistent with the good, loving, just, merciful God of the Bible. But the Bible does not teach eternal torment. It teaches conditional immortality (which entails annihilationism). This 10-minute video provides a brief introduction to the biblical evidence for annihilationism: ua-cam.com/video/yZpjs74uQ0s/v-deo.html
Mark why do you think Christians can't see the ECT...Cannot be True...
Hell is not Biblical. If you look at the Greek and Hebrew texts it doesn’t represent eternal torment. Eternal torment is a pagan idea and was forced down the church’s throat by ST. Aquino’s yea I spelled his name wrong.
But Emersoooooonnnn, sinning IS an infinite crime worthy of infinite punishment!!!!!
well i don't this either, god allows suffering because it leads to a good, so sin isn't "bad" it's part of the greater good, there is no "evil" or "sin", there is no bad at all, it's all part of the learning process. how can you be punished for teaching? if sin is leading to a great good, how can punishment be fair?
@@HarryNicNicholas I totaly agree with you, I came with tha same conclusion some time ago, I am very happy that you understand this concept. Anyways, have a great day!
We assume there is a “God” and that this “God” is good. But what if “God” isn’t good, and “God” is the evil demiurge (the Gnostic “Yaldabaoth”), the wicked Yahweh of the Old Testament (as understood by Marcion of Synope)? The ubiquity of suffering (of all sentient creatures- animal and human) throughout time and across the world may well point to the existence of an evil creator. That suffering then continues into eternity would fit the picture of such a psychopathic deity.
Seems yaldaboath is real and is in control in this world
It's Biblical that everyone is going to heaven.
Try to make a hell doctrine with only the verses that have the word hell.
The word hell is not in the Old Testament, and you can't make a doctrine for hell from the Old Testament.
People get confused with the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven," assuming if you don't go there, you're going to hell.
But the Kingdom of Heaven is here on earth if you live a godly life.
Yeah but, you're like, assuming God follows human logic and stuff. Checkmate Atheist.
Also your music choice is top notch.
my latest craze: satan is at odds with god, if i reject god then i am at odds with god too, so why would satan want to torture his new found friend? hell is not torment at all, it's a pleasure palace surely? me and satan are allies, not enemies.
if god doesn't _send_ me to hell, then i choose to go to the beach.
@@HarryNicNicholasThere's the argument that Satan hates humans way more than God but that's just gibberish because if Satan is that rotten then it's because God made him that way so the people in Heaven are going to be trapped with the one who put all those hideously evil thoughts about humans in Satan's head so being in Heaven is going to be way worse.
Either God created Lucifer knowing that he would rebel and created Man knowing that we would sin, or... what? God didn't foresee those things happening? Or he foresaw them but was unable to prevent them? Or he foresaw them and chose not to prevent them despite being able to do so? Any way you look at it, the logic breaks down upon consideration.
i think the apologist would say god didnt know what either satan or mankind would do in advance as they both have free will and its no limit on his omnsicience to know that which is not possible to know (what a free being wll do). Turns god into a bit of a retard though.
When you look at the earlier Hebrew and Greek translations, you realize that e.c.t doesn't exist. Hell is a pagan concept that came from Norse mythology. The word hell comes from the Germanic word hel, which means to cover over (bury).It's where we get the words helmet, helicopter ect.
The idea that God, being all powerful, all loving, and all knowing, knowing the beginning to the end, is going to allow himself to lose most of mankind to a spirit being that he created is ridiculous. Or that Satan somehow has the power and ability to put a time limit on God's work. As if God can't reach/offer his salvation from eternal death to the lost beyond the grave because Satan won't allow it or because it's just too late, is ridiculous.
There are Hebrew and Greek words that one should research such as, sheol, hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, nephesh, basanizo aion, and kolasis to name a few. One should also research the early history of the church.
Lamentations3:31 for no one is cast off by God forever.
Luke 3:6 and All flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Romans 11:32 for God has bound All men to disobedience so that he may have mercy on All.
1Corinthians 15:22 for as in Adam ALL die, so as in Christ ALL will be made alive.
Romans 14:11 for EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess to God.
Apokatastasis ❤
my latest craze: satan is at odds with god, if i reject god then i am at odds with god too, so why would satan want to torture his new found friend? hell is not torment at all, it's a pleasure palace surely? me and satan are allies, not enemies.
Is Satan supposed to torture people in Hell?
Sorry, but ETC probably exists and we are in the middle of it as we speak. The Universe is just camouflaged torture chamber for sentient beings, and it has no beginning or end or borders, so its eternal both in time and in size. Its camouflaged as a torture chamber in the sense that we are not being tortured all the time and not always very badly, but we are being subjected to deprivation, humiliation, pain, anxiety, fear etc - different levels of suffering some of the time - for some most of the time while being alive. Good news is that the individual is saved by death (I hope), but life produces other beings just like you to take over the suffering and this happens somewhere in the Universe forever - probably in abundance - what could possibly limit it.
I must admit that I thought about that possibility, but it may not be true, all those things that you mencioned, anxiety, fear, humiliation, etc, can be overcome, althought I am not sure of that, I myself still haven't defeated this things, but with the knowledge that I gain over the years, it came to me more cleary, that it might be possible
People cannot comprehend eternity any more than they understand infinity. Hence there is a deity that we created that take cares of our doubts and fears with promises of eternal life and happiness. Just like we have become the deity of all of life on earth that is not human and invented "the rainbow bridge" for animals so we know that they will be happy in the afterlife. And of course there is a Hell so that we are assured of punishment for those who do no believe like us.
I haven't watched till the end yet, but the apologist could reply that 'hell' simply means the separation from God. It doesn't literally mean absolute and maximum suffering. It just means you disconnected from God. Was it Augustine or Anselm who made this suggestion? I can't even remember now.
Augustine as far as I know believes that there is a literal lake of fire in hell where the wicked will be burnt perpetually as their skin will keep getting renewed as it burns.
I'm arguing against a particular view of hell in this video -- eternal conscious torment. Of course, Christians are free to reject this view.
@@EmersonGreen Okay! Got it!
@@EmersonGreen I feel as though you still addressed that view; separation from God would still be considered eternal conscious torment if God is love, beauty, truth, goodness, etc. so nothing changes in your argument.
I would also say, I find the idea of separation from God to be a strange idea; one of the fundamental ideas of Theists are that God is the underlying structure that makes reality possible and coherent. God is the one uncaused thing, the foundation of logic and the material world; there's no metaphysical "room" for things to be "fully separate" from God. If it is possible, how do we know there aren't many separate metaphysical beings, existing totally independent of one another, in their own metaphysical space? If a person can even exist to feel and think without being connected to God in anyway, what's supporting/allowing for their existence?
@@josephtnied Ben Watkins, in a debate I linked in the description, makes a few arguments against the eternal separation view that I found persuasive!
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Revelation 14:9-10
Eternal conscious torment is biblical and because God is holy and righteous he will judge sin justly, God is also loving and merciful so he gave his only Son to die for our sins in order to forgive our wrongdoings, repent and believe the gospel.
It says those who took the mark of the beast and worship the image are tormented by fire and brimstone and the smoke of THEIR torment ascends forever and ever....what if you didn't take the mark of the beast or worshipped the image?
@@ttownsupreme2183
" But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Revelation 21:22-27
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I'll give you an A+ for dodging the question
God does exist. Hell is real. It is a place of destruction/annihilation. On the night before Jesus died he said "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ECT is a huge false doctrine that understandably turns many people away from God. Another huge false doctrine that understandably turns Jewish people away from Christ is the trinity and the deity of Christ.
How to be saved:
Paul told us that the only way to be saved is by faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the cross. -- 'What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." (Romans 4:1-4)
Again, Paul confirmed this in Romans 10 9 through 10 when he writes, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So you see, salvation is simply by trusting what Jesus did in John 3:16 which says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
After you believe this - if you choose to believe it - you are now circumcised and free from the curse of the law, and you now have Liberty in Christ and you are separate from the law, (no longer under the curse of condemnation). As it reads, "Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:1-6)
Again, it is by faith alone that a person is justified and saved - " But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26)
The law CANNOT save anyone from sin - " Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:13-25)
The law does nothing but bring a curse to those who try to trust in themselves for salvation - " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3: 10-14)
Purpose of the law: " What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3: 19-25)
So you see, those who believe are not under law, and they are not under the curse of the law. Jesus made it so easy to be saved. It's not by working to keep salvation or try to gain it because salvation is a free gift. - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 4:4-9)
Once you have believed, you CANNOT lose your salvation, as the apostle Paul says, "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
How can one compel themselves to believe something
Then God's 100 percent responsible for who gets saved and since He wants everyone to get saved then everyone will be saved. Unless of course we have Free Will which given an eternity all will eventually choose to enter Heaven.
I have considered that not only does God burn people to ashes, but after they are burned to stubble, they probably live on forever in eternal, conscious torment in the same way the fallen unbeliever does when he/she falls away into apostasy and is overcome by demons.
I believe the Bible as a whole is clear on this, and that not only does God allow them to live on an eternal conscious torment, and even though he doesn't continue burning them they do burn to ashes in a physical body.
I don't understand how other Christians can't see this in Scripture. It's very clear. They do not burn forever, they burn once into ashes and then suffer demonic torment forever and ever. So the consequences are very severe.
Hell is real, and I know because I am a soldier of Satan. I worship Him with all my soul. He has more power than god; Hell was created by Satan, not god. I know because every night when my body is asleep, my spirit goes to the lakes of fires.
All the people that threatens others with Hell are going to Hell; only Satan can talk about Hell. You crossed your limits, as so many do. You are going to the Fiery Lake (as my father Satan calls Hell), and what you tell others what will happen to them, will happen to you. But you will not become "ashes", your body will be preserved, and the pain you'll suffer will duplicate every thousand years.
6:57 but sin is not something that God likes at all! Sin is very serious in Gods’ eye. He would be just, in punishing anyone for any type of sin for any length of time. Sin is no joke. Not even Moses could enter the tabernacle after its construction. God was even willing to completely destroy the Israelites when he saw them erect a golden calf to worship. And that was before God told them they shouldn’t worship any “Gods” other than him. I don’t think it wouldn’t be loving for ECT if Gods’ point is for those in hell to be aware of how grave sin was to him.
Are you certain this belief is true, based on the Holy Spirit teaching this to you and not anyone else outside, and not your emotions?
Because demons could be deceiving you and you may not be aware of this since they are so seductive.
If your belief is true, then why did the Holy Spirit tell me, (I know him because I hear his voice, and I'm His child), that people choose to reject him, and because they reject him they choose hell? Why did the Holy Spirit also tell me that even though he doesn't want to put them there they choose to go, because they would not accept his love for them?
If I got saved by first being told that I was a sinner in need of a savior, and that if I didn't receive and trust Him, I would go to hell, but then hearing that God also loved me so much that he sent his son to die for me, and I chose to receive him then this proves it was fear that taught me to know him. Fear of what? Hell. But it was also his grace that taught me to fear, and to not desire separation from him because I fear him. Not in a way that causes me to be angry with him but in a way that keeps me from wanting to separate myself from him in sin, knowing it will cause me to be in torment forever.
So it's possible that im being deceived by demoms
You're not getting that it's not God's choice that you go to hell, it's your choice. Just because we love God and understand his mercy and Grace, it doesn't mean we can rationalize and say that those who choose hell didn't make that decision based on their own free will.
If my will is to live for Christ then that is my will, but if I know the warnings in scriptures and choose not to love Jesus then that's my choice. If I chose hell and eternal conscious, (in the mind and soul), after the physical death caused from the physical fire in hell, then that's my choice. God allows me to go there because of my decisions, that because he made me but because I chose to.
Lean not on your own understanding. It has to be infinite because it's a divorce on top of punishment. This ain't life. Jesus is the life. And death ain't death. Thats hell the second death. Were just passing thru to make a decision real quick. Life or death. We've sinned against a holy eternal infinite God. And whether you choose life or not you are also eternal. And your saved by your faith. You don't really have free will. Just freedom of choice. One or the other.
As a theist, I 100 percent agree with you that eternal conscious torment is the worst possible view of hell to ever exist in theology. It’s dangerous too. That’s one of the reasons why I’ve come to accept universalism as a legitimate option.