Rethinking Hell: Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment? A Case For Conditional Immortality
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- Опубліковано 3 бер 2024
- Is hell eternal torment? In this video, Jordan has a conversation with Keegan Kidder to dive deep into the doctrine of hell, challenging the traditional view of eternal conscious torment with a compelling argument for conditional immortality. Through careful examination of biblical texts and theological arguments we present a fresh look at what the Bible really says about the fate of the unrighteous. This video explores the concept of conditional immortality, which suggests that only those granted eternal life will live forever, while others will face a final and total destruction. Whether you're a staunch supporter of traditional views or open to reexamining long-held beliefs, this video promises to offer a respectful, insightful, and enlightening discussion on one of Christianity's most debated doctrines.
Watch more of our videos on the topic of hell: • What Does The Bible Sa...
Rethinking Hell Part 1: • Rethinking Hell Part 1...
Rethinking Hell Part 2: • Rethinking Hell: Is He...
Rethinking Hell Part 3: • Rethinking Hell: Why R...
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Rethinking Hell Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/u4_kCteLMFk/v-deo.html
Rethinking Hell Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/apFg1C5WzvQ/v-deo.html
Rethinking Hell Part 3: ua-cam.com/video/IaMZibJ0kzY/v-deo.htmlsi=0d_z4nEkszuaMONt
Thank you for this presentation.
I feel very strongly about knowing the true character [name] of God and not taking his name in vain.
I don't think a Christian can walk in the image of Jesus believing in this fallen teaching.
People forget that people who die the second death, many will be family and friends from this temporal age.
How could a righteous person given eternal life after the first resurrection, be happy in heaven or on the new earth when God is punishing them for an eternity?
Let them be as the grass upon the housetops, which withereth afore it groweth up:
{Psalm 129:6}
For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
{Psalm 37:2}
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, *and live for ever*
{Genesis 3:22}
The consequences of sin lead to their physical death.
...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So yes, in a spiritual since they lost this gift of immortality after they sinned and were expelled from the Garden.
Conditional Immortality is so clearly described in scripture that coming to understand it has caused me to question a lot of the doctrines I once just took for granted. It has been an eye-opening journey for sure.
I disagree with you. I don’t even believe in Everlasting Conscious Torment but it is plain as the nose of my own face that Everlasting Conscious Torment is clearly taught in the Bible.
@@TheMirabillis If you don't even believe the Bible, I don't know how fruitful this conversation can be, but essentially the debate boils down to one symbolic verse that suggests ECT, and a myriad (literally all others) of very clear verses that plainly teach CI.
@@lukegaier9490
Your post is foolish because there have been millions of Christians and are millions of Christians who disagree with you. You are essentially saying, that the majority of Christians don’t believe the Bible. And that is very foolish. Furthermore, you’re a “Cherry Picker” like the rest of your crowd who believe what you do. The Scriptures which you like you say are literal and the Scriptures which you don’t like you say are Symbolic. It is Cherry Picking. If being tormented in the Lake of Fire forever and ever is Symbolic, then so are the New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem ( which are all talked about in the Book of Revelation ).
good comment @@TheMirabillis
You should look more into what the Bible actually says about healing next
The bible also says that we should not be afraid of those that can destroy the body but of Him that can destroy both body and soul.
It warms my heart to see that more and more people are 'rethinking hell'. God gives us a choice. Either LIFE or DEATH. And death is not life somewhere really awful.
I had visited this position a few times over my Christian walk, but the explanations I heard were typically that "forever" doesn't mean "forever", which I found to be about as convincing as the Calvinist argument that "all" doesn't really mean "all". Besides for a few verses in Revelation, some of the verses that convinced me of eternal conscious torment being true ended up being the verses that began to convince me that it isn't true. Those verses are Mark 9:44, 46, and 48 where Jesus says concerning those cast into hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Even having read Isaiah several times I must have skimmed over the very last verse, because this is what Jesus is quoting from. Isaiah 66:24 "And they (the saved) shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Most translations use the words "dead bodies" instead of "carcasses", but they're obviously the same thing. This is what really got me to consider many of the other passages. Here are a few:
Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." - Shame is what the wicked feel, contempt is what others feel toward the wicked. Notice only the contempt is everlasting which links to "they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh"
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - There's no more need to make destruction mean something other than destruction anymore.
Genesis 6:3 - "And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man", but from my understanding of ECT, if it is true he will always strive with man because God must be present (in some sense) in hell in order to pour out his wrath, and the people in ECT will never cease to be sinners.
Finally to keep this short(ish), I could find countless verses that say his mercy endures forever, but I can't find one verse that says his wrath endures forever, and can only find one verse that says, "For his anger endureth but a moment" in Psalm 30:5 which interestingly seems to be targeted at someone who trusts the Lord, but sinned.
Will Satan be annihilated or will he experience suffering and torment forever and ever ?
@@TheMirabillis Since there doesn't seem to be an scriptures that say God's wrath is forever and since God won't strive with man forever I would assume that the same would apply to Satan and any other sinful creature since God's nature doesn't change dependent on the creature. What are your thoughts about him being tormented forever?
@@NateWardawg Revelation 20:10 English Standard Version
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The above scripture is Biblical evidence that God’s wrath does endure forever. Satan will be tormented forever and ever.
@@TheMirabillis They covered this in the very beginning of the next part of this series (which aired today). I used to see it that way as well for decades. The problem is that the lake of fire is symbolic of a literal thing, the second death, not the other way around. Also, Death and Hades (which is likely a reference to the Pale horse rider and follower in Revelation 6:8) are cast into the lake of fire as well. The beast and the false prophet are also symbolic imagery. The lake of fire is the second death, the second death is not the lake of fire.
It seems to me that the lake of fire is the literal fire pit where there are dead bodies of those that transgressed against the Lord that Jesus is referencing in Isaiah 66:24 in Mark 9:44/46/48.
Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
This scripture occurs after the new heaven and new earth are created just 2 verses earlier in Isaiah 66:22. I would encourage you to read at least from verse 22 through 24, or read the whole chapter.
@@NateWardawg
The Scripture I gave refers to Satan ( a spiritual being ) and not a Man. Thus, the scriptures you gave in Isaiah are not applicable. Those scriptures refer to Men and Flesh.
Your position is also one of Cherry Picking. You are making what you don’t like symbolic and making what you like literal. If the Lake of Fire is Symbolic, then the New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem are also Symbolic. To say they are not is just Cherry Picking.
God is the only one with intrinsic life. He is the source of all living things. So if evil or unbelievers go to hell and are cut of from God then i think the soul also will be destroyed.
I used to just believe what I was being fed by some great pastors, but I did not study it myself until a year after my father died and I couldn't bear any longer to think he was being tortured that whole year! But I was also afraid of comitting anathema, but I knew I had to study this for myself in the Bible. God clearly showed me that we are NOT born immortal, or why would Adam and Eve be kept from the tree of life? Plus, it says in 2 Timothy 1:10: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel...Also, why have the 1st death, 2nd death and eternal life verses of Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord and Rev 20:6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years?" I do believe that Satan and the demons go to hell and are tortured eternally, but Rev 20 tells us that unsaved people are cast into the Lake of Fire with him but they are then punished with the 2nd death! I believe Satan and the demons suffer alive in hell for eternity because they were created as immortal beings and God had to prepare hell for them when they sinned. I also believe the Bible clearly states that hell fire is eternal, but once the 2nd death occurs to unbelievers, they simply die, which is an eternal punishment, because unlike after the 1st death, they will not ressurect to life after the 2nd death! I appreciate your work here! Thank you.
This is not a secondary issue.
It is transgressing the third commandment to believe in the false doctrine of eternal punishing and the immortality of the soul.
Great series. ECT is bogus. I lean more towards Ultimate Reconciliation but the Conditional Immortality arguments are ones I am still weighing.
Hey guys really enjoying this topic and I’m loving digging into the word on this subject, excited to watch these videos.
Keegan you were saying that there is this double standard because people say there is only eternal life in Christ, but they are also believing this other “eternal life” for the wicked. I get the point you’re making here in that if one believes ECT, then they are saying one is still conscious for eternity in BOTH heaven and hell. But someone who beleives ETC would not say someone in hell has eternal LIFE, that is *only* for believers. I guess they would/could say the unbeliever experiences eternal DEATH and eternal CONSCIOUSNESS, but they wouldn’t say they are experiencing eternal LIFE. Since nothing about hell is “life” and life is only found in Christ. I’m on board with your general annihilation interpretation and am willing to believe that, but I think you can represent the other side a little more accurately here. ECT believes eternal *death* (in that they are experiencing eternal darkness, hopelessness, suffering, ie-death) and this is clearly not eternal *life*, unless you are defining “life” as “consciousness”… but I’m not sure that is the point of the phrase “eternal life”. I don’t think the phrase “eternal life” is supposed to be interchangeable with “eternal consciousness” biblically speaking. “Eternal life” I think means eternally living in the very presence of Life its self and experiencing Life eternally (life only being Jesus Christ)
Thanks for the comment!
There are many traditionalists who would use "life" in relation the lost:
John Gill wrote that the lost “shall rise to life, to an immortal life, so as never to die more,”
John MacArthur says, “Every human being ever born lives forever
Wayne Grudem writes that the lost will “live forever in hell;”
I want to apologize if anyone feels misrepresented. I don't always communicate things as clearly as I would like. I think my main point is that we create unwarranted categories that the Bible doesn't afford like saying "Well the wicked will technically live eternally in hell (which means God is sustaining their life) but it's a lesser kind of life because it's "outer darkness" or "hopeless" as you said. I think scripture is clear that any kind of life/consciousness etc. is only found eternally in Christ, and that death is death.
I am not trying to define life necessarily, only that scripture says man became a living being when God took material from the earth and breathed His life into it. If either of those two elements are missing, I am hard pressed to say anyone has anything like consciousness or life
Ecc. 12:7 "then dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Please bring on Steve Gregg to talk about all three Christian views of hell.
So is the eternal part of eternal conscious torment the only thing you object to
The problem with 1 Cor. 15:22 is that it doesn't say "all in Adam die" and "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says "in Adam all die" and "in Christ all shall be made alive." The former implies that those who lost (in Adam) die and those who are saved (in Christ) will be made alive. The problem is not only is that reversing the grammar, it is also demonstrably untrue because saved (in Christ) people also die. What Paul is saying is that because of Adam all die and because of Christ all will be made alive. We aren't talking about Christ giving people eternal life, we are talking about the resurrection. Daniel spoke of the resurrection of the wicked in Daniel 12 and so did Jesus in John 6. The universal effect of Adam's sin is being contracted with the universal effect of Christ's resurrection. This is made obvious by the previous verse which states "For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead." Who did death come to? All of humanity, both believers and unbelievers and even those (like infants) who never got the chance to Believe. Who will be raised? All of humanity, both the righteous and the wicked and even those (like infants) who never got a chance to become righteous or wicked.
What do you think of nde's? People find themselves in heaven or in hell? Does that mean jou are judged immediately and there is no " judgment day " to follow. I really don't understand this. Could somebody please try and explain this?
I personally don't trust NDEs for two main reasons. 1) people from all religious backgrounds claim to have them, and whatever their view of the afterlife is, is what they see in these experiences. NDEs are not exclusive to Christianity. 2) even NDEs experienced by Christians contradict each other. Most of them have streets of gold, pearly gates, or burning hellfire, but all the other details contradict other NDEs of others that have experienced them. This inconsistency can't be trusted, and latest research actually shows that it's just a reaction of the brain overloading and people are seeing images of what they already believe to be true. Everything we understand about Christianity should be based on Bible and Bible alone. In my humble opinion. :)
It's imagined. A Dream
The state of the dead, according to the word of God.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die*
{Genesis 2:17}
Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
...
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their *sleep*
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, *until thy wrath be past* that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
👉till my change come.
...
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
{Job 14:10, 12-14 & 21}
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in *my flesh* shall I see God.
{Job 19:26}
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, *nor knowledge nor wisdom* in the grave, whither thou goest.
{The Preacher 9:10}
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; *in that very day his thoughts perish*
{Psalm 146:3-4}
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he *sleep* he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."
{John 11:12-14}
...
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection
👉at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet *shall* he live:"
{John 11:24-25}
But go thou thy way till the end be: for *thou shalt rest* and stand in thy lot *at the end of the days*
{Daniel 12:13}
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him *should not perish* but have everlasting life.
{John 3:16}
And *the serpent said* unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die*
{Genesis 3:4}
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down *in the midst of the stones of fire*
{Ezekiel 28:14}
^
(satan always turns the tables on God, for he is the father of lies.)
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. *Who* among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
*He that walketh righteously and speaketh uprightly he that despiseth the gain of oppressions that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil*
{Isaiah 33:14-15}
If anyone errors in their understanding of this doctrine of the dead, then they will in no way be led to the understanding of the truth, for it will be a stumblingblock unto the decernment of spiritual things, including soilterology and eschatology.
There's been people who have rejected Christianity because of near death experiences. There's been Christians who have completely unbiblical views because of their NDE. So honestly I don't trust them. I used to think I could when I was first saved. I still remember the very first video I watched of a girl who claimed she went to hell. The imagery was horrific and hard to stomach. So I don't really trust those experiences. Just like people who dream dreams. You've gotta test all things with scripture.
@@scarletrozes7832 facts. NDEs and dreams can come from decieving spirites as well.
So here is my question. It seems like you think that when someone dies, they just return go dust and that's it. If that is the case, what do you do with the category of "the dead" in Scripture which have a dwelling place (Sheol/Hades), can be communicated with (necromancy/Mediums), and be judged (Rev. 20)? What about the disembodied Samuel who met with Saul (btw, how does Samuel (and all the righteous who currently have no bodies) exist at all without a body in your view of the union of body and Ruach (God's breath))? When a lost person dies physically what happens to them? Do they completely exit out of existence? If so, then how can they be raised (Daniel 12/John 6/Rev. 20) to be judged? If they don't exist then whoever is reanimated is someome else, right? How can one exist, stop existing, and exist again? And does the Bible really teach this and where? What do you do with Jesus teaching on Lazarus and the rich man? What about Paul's view that he will go to be with the Lord when he dies (2 Cor. 5/Phil. 1), yet will not receive a new body until the resurrection of the dead (1 Cor. 15/1 Thess. 4)? If the body is destroyed, then how does Paul exist in anyway? If half the car is gone, how can you still call it a car? How do you interpret Jesus' statement concerning the destruction of the body vs the destruction of both body and soul? If body + Breath of life = soul, then how could the body be destroyed and the soul not? What happened when Jesus died? Surely you do not believe He stopped existing. All of my questions are genuine though. I want to know how you deal with these concepts.
If I have misunderstood your view, then simply ignore these questions and correct my misunderstanding of what you believe. It seems like in some places you believe that there is no existence for the wicked after physical death, but in others it seems like you maybe believe that the wicked do exist for a little while before they are annihilated. Perhaps you can clarify that for me.
Consumed?
What about the verse that Jesus tasted death for all men? Wouldn't He have to be annihilated Himself to truly redeem man from it?
Most everyone dies the first death.
And Jesus humanity died on the cross.
But the second death is final and only for the ungodly of the second resurrection of damnation.
IE; the great white throne judgment.
I'm not really sure what your saying, and I don't t think you answered sufficiently or coherently.
@@jayschulte5147
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such *the second death* hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
By Christ sacrifice and his good Grace, he died the second death for us.
@@jayschulte5147
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
God the Father did not require it from His Son, His sacrificewas sufficient. If Jesus had not been resurrected, then we would have no hope of His second coming, at the first resurrection, at the last day.
I am 34 years a Christian and spent 20 plus years with this Devilish Imp in my heart and mind...This Imp or Devil was the Eternal Conscious Torment View of Hell...ECT is a Pernicious Falsehood that ROBS the Christian of the confidence of knowing the TRUTH as it REALLY IS...God is Good, God is Love, God is Righteous, God is Perfect in His Wisdom...If there is any other Words we can use to Describe our Saviour and Creator it certainly would NOT be God is a Cosmic Sadistic Sociopath that can only be satisfied with Tormenting in Fire His Enemies for the Rest of Eternity without END...
The Devil loves to twist the Bible on Christians and no doubt he has a good Scoff and Laugh at the Believer who refuses to Correct themselves on this Slander to the Word of Truth...Both Calvinism and ECT puts the Christian Faith in a sort of Torturous Position of Irrationality...
God is so Good that He gave His Only Son that whosoever would believe in Him would not PERISH but have Everlasting Life...Perish mean Perish NOT Eternal Torment...When the Bible is properly understood it makes sense therefore when it is Twisted the Bible seems unreal and Not Rational...The Christians who hold the ECT View is like a Barney Fife Character who can't help but shoot themselves in the foot...This is a SAD Reality that makes me angry at my fellow Christian who refuse to see the Light as He Really IS...
People are Deceived by the Devil and are on the way to the Lake of Fire which is the SECOND DEATH...We should not partner with him in his deceptions...God commands that we Love our Enemies and to Love Mercy but the ALMIGHTY is going to Torment His enemies without Mercy for Eternity...Such incongruities within our Theology plucks the Beard from the Face of Him who died for All and leaves the Christian wanting for the Armor of God...God help us all...Amen...
That's one of the crazy hypocritical points that I think truly causes cognitive dissonance for ECT.. God says "love your enemies and turn the other cheek or go the extra mile" but then he's planning on tormenting His enemies for eternity. Make that make sense ECT proponents.
The mother church and her daughters teach the false doctrine of eternal punishment, causing the people to have a temporal fear of God rather than a reverential fear.
Really good point Larry...Thanks...And The Lord Bless You... @@larrybedouin2921
@@larrybedouin2921that is sooo true. In my infantile brain, one of reasons that makes ect sus, is the fact that the popists always affirm ect. Than they tell u to gimme money, finger your rosary,confess to the priest, get molested, pray to Mary, pray to saint Dingus, pray to saint Dilbert etc etc etc.
😠😠😠😠
Another argument for annihilation you made was (2 Peter 2: 4-6) in reference to ungodly during Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah implying total annihilation of those without a connection to God. The mystery of the Word always leaves clues as we test scripture with scripture. While in the tomb, Christ made a proclamation to those imprisoned spirits who were disobedient in the days of Noah. They were dead physically, but had a spiritual connection with Jesus. Not annihilated.
In Matthew 25:31-46, Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The three uses of eternal above are all from aiōnion once again, meaning eternal or everlasting.
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense.
Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
Can’t find part 1
Here is part 1: ua-cam.com/video/u4_kCteLMFk/v-deo.html -- I have all three parts linked in the description of this video.
Which happens first, being buried with Him in baptism or being raised with Him through faith?
1) Buried with Him in baptism -> raised with Him through faith
Or
2) Raised with Him through faith -> buried with Him in baptism
Which is the correct order, 1 or 2?
Colossians 2:12 NKJV
[12] buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Way to stay on topic.
@@jordandthornburg1 or 2?
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg stay on topic and I may answer you.
@@jordandthornburg I am at liberty to ask any questions pertaining to the faith that I want to. His channel doesn't use the restrictions/guidelines that UA-cam provides.
@@jordandthornburg 1 or 2?
Hoping here for a thorough treatment of the revelation passages in part 3.
All the arguments presented here did not really do anything for me (lots of non sequiturs, imo). I'm very open, though. I just need solid exegetical arguments.
Which argument specifically did you feel were non-sequiturs?
@@TKK0812 Examples are,
- They point to the fact that humans are not inherently immortal. So?
- They say immortality is conditional and (I think, wrongly) equate immortality in general with eternal life, which is acquired by faith. Also, eternal life can describe a quality of life, not going to heaven (Romans 6:23 is also in the context of sanctification btw).
- They point to the speculative concept of conditional life in the garden, which is not helpful for the debate.
- They assert, that conscious torment means, the rebellion against God will go on forever, so there would never be peace. But that's a stretch. God judges people for their rebellion and if God sees fit to judge them forever, we should not conclude, that the rebellion goes on forever as well. Do unbelievers who are in "hell" right now also rebel against God? I don't think that's the right way of thinking about it.
- A lot of what is discussed here in passing (OT passages) concerns the first death, but this debate really is about the second death, isn't it?
- Jesus' suffering for sin did not last forever, so there can't be eternal conscious torment. This does not necessarily follow.
Not a non sequitur, but they equate death with cessation, unless I am mistaken. However, death in the Bible is depicted as separation. Context determines what kind of separation is in view.
Another thing that came to mind just know - people in the OT talk about being in Sheol. So they did not cease to exist (compare Jesus' story about Lazarus, where the rich man suffers in fire). So why should they cease to exist with the second death?
Last but not least, here is a passage for your consideration:
_Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out-those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned._ (John 5:28-29)
So there will be a general resurrection where unbelievers will be resurrected. They said only believers get resurrected.
@@minorsingingairhead I'm the one in the video so hopefully I can clear some things up. I maybe didn't explain myself as well as I could have and for that, I apologize.
*They point to the fact that humans are not inherently immortal. So?*
If we are not inherently immortal, then in order to exist consciously in hell for eternity experiencing torment, we need to be given immortality. But immortality is God's alone and given only to the saved.
*They say immortality is conditional and (I think, wrongly) equate immortality in general with eternal life, which is acquired by faith. Also, eternal life can describe a quality of life, not going to heaven*
Quality of life in included in eternal life, but eternal life is at it's core, life that is eternal. In order to have a higher quality of life, you have to have life in the first place. Many Christians are putting the cart before the horse. If you think I am equating immortality with eternal life, then just show me where the wicked are given immortality in scripture.
*They point to the speculative concept of conditional life in the garden, which is not helpful for the debate*
I fail to see how this isn't relevant? God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden "lest they take from the tree of life and live forever". The tree of life shows up again in the New Jerusalem/Paradise and is only accessible now to the saved. It's extremely helpful to discuss.
*They assert, that conscious torment means, the rebellion against God will go on forever, so there would never be peace. But that's a stretch*
I don't assert that, proponents of ECT assert that people are justly tormented forever because they continue to rebel in hell. That's not my view, that's what many, many proponents of ECT hold to. It's impossible to represent all possible views and nuances of ECT in everything I said, but in general, they do believe this. The argument is that peace means completeness or the way things ought to be, but if God is going to reconcile all things to Himself and creation will be made new, then it strikes me as odd that there still exists in the cosmos a place not reconciled to Him and not as it ought to be. It's absolutely not a main argument of mine, just food for thought.
*A lot of what is discussed here in passing (OT passages) concerns the first death, but this debate really is about the second death, isn't it?*
I would argue there is consistency between the two. We discuss "second death" in the next video. Spoiler: I believe it's death that lasts for forever.
*Jesus' suffering for sin did not last forever, so there can't be eternal conscious torment. This does not necessarily follow*
I'm not concerned with His length of suffering, I am concerned with the punishment He bore on our behalf. He took our punishment (death) on the cross, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus died, but the grave could not hold Him. That is our hope, that because we are in Christ, and He overcame the grave, so too will we. But those not in Christ will ultimately not overcome the grave. They will die a second death.
*Jesus' suffering for sin did not last forever, so there can't be eternal conscious torment. This does not necessarily follow*
Then Jesus did not take on our punishment on the cross according to ECT
*Not a non sequitur, but they equate death with cessation, unless I am mistaken. However, death in the Bible is depicted as separation. Context determines what kind of separation is in view*
I equate death with cessation of life. Just like the "eternal life" and "quality of life" discussion, separation would be an entailment of death, but it is not the "main thing" if you will. If you want to call death "separation", then that is fine, but being separated from the giver and sustainer of life (God) still ends in death.
*Another thing that came to mind just know - people in the OT talk about being in Sheol. So they did not cease to exist (compare Jesus' story about Lazarus, where the rich man suffers in fire). So why should they cease to exist with the second death?*
This topic is way too massive to explain well in the comments. Sheol is just the grave. The Jews did not believe it was a place that your immaterial self went to. The rich man and Lazarus I believe is a parable and there are many, many issues with taking it the way you have. Just a question for thought. If the rich man needed water for his tongue, then we can reason that the "dead" in hades (which is the word Luke 16 uses) having consciousness and physical bodies. So how then are they dead?
*So there will be a general resurrection where unbelievers will be resurrected. They said only believers get resurrected*
This one scares me the most of all the ways I may have misspoke, haha. If I said that only believers will be resurrected, then I repent in sackcloth and ashes haha. ALL will be raised, but only believers to eternal life.
I appreciate your charitable pushback!
@@TKK0812 Thank you for your willingness to discuss this. I didn't study all of that in detail, but here we go.
*If we are not inherently immortal, then in order to exist consciously in hell for eternity experiencing torment, we need to be given immortality. But immortality is God's alone and given only to the saved.*
Why can't there be an existence in conscious torment without the gift of eternal life or immortality, which is only given to believers? That could be afforded by the general resurrection I mentioned.
*If you think I am equating immortality with eternal life, then just show me where the wicked are given immortality in scripture.*
The wicked are given a resurrection body, though. And I think this general resurrection is possible because of Jesus' resurrection (not 100% sure).
*The tree of life shows up again in the New Jerusalem/Paradise and is only accessible now to the saved. It's extremely helpful to discuss.*
Let's say Adam and Eve would die, unless they eat from the tree of life frequently (which is speculative). This does only help in making the case that immortality is not inherent in our pre-fall condition. I fail to see how helpful this is in the case for annihilationism. Who says Adam and Eve would cease to exist after they died by not eating from the tree of life? On the other hand, who says they would exist somehow after this speculative death. I don't know. It's all speculation, it seems to me.
*The argument is that peace means completeness or the way things ought to be, but if God is going to reconcile all things to Himself and creation will be made new, then it strikes me as odd that there still exists in the cosmos a place not reconciled to Him and not as it ought to be.*
Maybe this reconciliation looks different for different parties. For example, if a king conquers his enemies and puts them in jail, this still would count as "peace", right? The enemy does not have to be annihilated for peace to be established.
*I'm not concerned with His length of suffering, I am concerned with the punishment He bore on our behalf. He took our punishment (death) on the cross, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus died, but the grave could not hold Him. That is our hope, that because we are in Christ, and He overcame the grave, so too will we. But those not in Christ will ultimately not overcome the grave. They will die a second death.*
This may be stupid for me to say, but Jesus also didn't cease to exist as a punishment for our sin, so... Not sure where I'm going with this, but Jesus did suffer separation from God, which will be the same for the unbeliever. Jesus was not separated forever, but unbelievers will be.
*I equate death with cessation of life. Just like the "eternal life" and "quality of life" discussion, separation would be an entailment of death, but it is not the "main thing" if you will. If you want to call death "separation", then that is fine, but being separated from the giver and sustainer of life (God) still ends in death.*
Ok, but still, the concept of separation is compatible with the existence of the unbeliever after death. But you think there can't be an existence for the unbeliever after death, unless he receives eternal life.
*If the rich man needed water for his tongue, then we can reason that the "dead" in hades (which is the word Luke 16 uses) having consciousness and physical bodies. So how then are they dead?*
Does this question not presuppose annihilationism and the impossibility of having conscious torment after death? There is a debate whether this is a parable, but why would Jesus say these things if conscious torment after death can't be a thing?
@@minorsingingairhead *The wicked are given a resurrection body, though. And I think this general resurrection is possible because of Jesus' resurrection (not 100% sure)*
Absolutely. Then comes the judgement. Some to eternal life, and some to eternal punishment. The punishment that is eternal on my view is dying a second time, never to live again.
*Let's say Adam and Eve would die, unless they eat from the tree of life frequently (which is speculative). This does only help in making the case that immortality is not inherent in our pre-fall condition. I fail to see how helpful this is in the case for annihilationism. Who says Adam and Eve would cease to exist after they died by not eating from the tree of life? On the other hand, who says they would exist somehow after this speculative death. I don't know. It's all speculation, it seems to me*
I appreciate this. We should never just accept something if we feel it is pure or mostly speculation. Maybe we could approach this idea from another way. In Genesis 3:22, it says "and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever - therefor the Lord God sent him out from the garden". Also look at Genesis 3:19 in describing the curse "for you are dust, and to dust you shall return". I see a direct connection, from the text, of man taking from the tree, eating, and living for forever. So why wouldn't I assume that the not eating would still include living forever? Couple that with God saying you will return to dust. If man is immortal, then how can they return to dust, which is an element devoid of the life giving breath of God? Ecc. 12:7 / then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it
I agree it's not a case for annihilationism necessarily. The view is more specifically called "Conditional Immortality" and has 3 main components depending on who you ask:
1. Life is conditional. Human beings are not inherently immortal
2. Christ bore the punishment for our sins on the cross. That punishment was death, not eternal conscious torment.
3. The wicked will die a second time and then be annihilated.
*Maybe this reconciliation looks different for different parties. For example, if a king conquers his enemies and puts them in jail, this still would count as "peace", right?*
That's possible. Again, this isn't a main argument, just food for thought. Col 1:20 says "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through His cross". If Hell exists as a place of eternal torment, than all things are not reconciled. Now some would say "But it only says things on heaven and earth!". But look back at verse 16. It says by Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth. So would proponents of ECT say Christ didn't create Hell? On my view it's no problem, because I don't believe there is an immaterial realm where the dead exist for eternity, so I can say heaven and earth will be reconciled because the wicked will be annihilated.
*This may be stupid for me to say, but Jesus also didn't cease to exist as a punishment for our sin, so... Not sure where I'm going with this, but Jesus did suffer separation from God, which will be the same for the unbeliever. Jesus was not separated forever, but unbelievers will be*
No, not stupid at all. It's a fantastic question and observation and if you're new to this conversation, then bravo for picking up on this. I'm a physicalist, which means I tend to believe (though I have tough passages that challenge my view) that humans beings are not a warm bag of meat with an immaterial soul existing inside of them, rather we are a living soul, which is a combination of dust and God's breath of live. However, many annihilationists are dualists and believe we have an immaterial soul. You can hold to either view and be an annihilationist. They are related discussions but not dependent on one another by any means.
In getting to your objection. I'll assume you believe we have an immaterial soul and I will explain from that position. Read Matthew 10:28. Men can kill the body, but they can't kill the soul. So men can cause you to die and your physical body dies but your immaterial soul lives on. However, Jesus says we should fear the one who can "destroy" (different greek word here from the one He used earlier for "kill") both body and soul in Gehenna. So our view says that we will die a second time (our physical body after the resurrection will again cease to have life after the Great White Throne judgement) and then after that death our soul will also be annihilated/destroyed.
John 3:16 perfectly sums up our view. If I went to war and came back and someone said "What happened to Bob" and I say "he perished", would someone assume he is alive and being tortured or that he has died? You either perish or live forever.
*Ok, but still, the concept of separation is compatible with the existence of the unbeliever after death. But you think there can't be an existence for the unbeliever after death, unless he receives eternal life*
If by compatible you mean a necessary entailment, then yes. But again, if God gives and sustains all life/existence, then if we are separated from Him, I don't see how we can have existence/life/consciousness. Does that make sense?
*Does this question not presuppose annihilationism and the impossibility of having conscious torment after death? There is a debate whether this is a parable, but why would Jesus say these things if conscious torment after death can't be a thing?*
I don't think it does presuppose annihilationism but I am happy to be corrected if I am missing something. I agree there is debate as to whether its a parable. For arguments sake, let's assume it's reality.
So the rich man is in a place called hades. The story mentions his tongue, eyes, and fingers. So he has a physical body and is conscious. So in what way is he dead? He's just as "alive" as any person on earth, he is just in a different place. But dying in scripture mentions our bodies returning to dust, so do we get a temporary body while in this other place? Where is that taught? I think too much is made of this.
But let's go further and assume it's still all true. The rich man has a physical body in hades and is experiencing torment. At best, this describes the intermediate state. He is in hades, not gehenna. If his brothers can still be warned, then the final judgement has not happened. At best this gives us a description of the intermediate state, but certainly not the final state of the lost. We also know this because the rich man is communicating with Abraham, but we know that one day, there will be a new heavens and new earth, so we know this isn't the final state unless you believe the saved will exist forever in hades but simply on Abrahams side of the great chasm?
there's a lot of NDE where people go into a different dimension from the earth we live on and go down a tunnel at light speed into a place of living evil and darkness with reptile like creatures of all sizes where there is woeing, people telling them not to come there. people are literally being eaten and dismembered by these reptile like creatures. all of these people say this place feels realer than the earth we live on and they are conscious that it is a parallel dimension on our earth just in a sort of seperate reality where they have a more powerful body that is completely mental and lots of these people say this spiritual body and dimension gives them the ability to know exactly why the people around them are there.
Rom. 6:23 (KJ21) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Even admitting the possibility that this verse could be interpreted to mean only “spiritual death,” then how would traditionalists be able to explain Rev. 20:14?
Rev. 20:14 (ESV) 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Since the unsaved are in a continual state of spiritual death and a persistent, spiritual separation from God, then what could a second death possibly mean? After all, sinners cannot become spiritually dead or spiritually separated from God-a second time. And yet, that is the standard explanation given by traditionalists as you can see here.
"This verse in Revelation calls the lake of fire "the second death." The first death is physical. Upon death, the soul is separated from the body, and the unbeliever continues to be separated from God. At the second death, the resurrected body is joined to the soul and both are separated from God for all eternity."
Well, they are correct in stating that an unbeliever’s soul continues to be separated from God after they die. But then they try to claim that the second death means being separated from God for all eternity. However, they do not give any explanation for why that would make it a second death. After all, they already admitted that the unbeliever continues to be separated from God after death. And they stated that the first death is physical which is correct. As Heb. 9:27 states, “it is appointed unto men once to die.” There is no mention of a “first death” in the Bible. But this verse comes the closest. So everyone dies once. And when they die, they are unconscious. But this first death is only temporary. However, the second death will be permanent for those who are not saved. And so now read this verse which verifies that the unsaved remain in spiritual death.
1 John 3:14 (NIV) 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
Of course, this verse is not talking about physical death. And so this is biblical proof that there cannot be a second: spiritual death.
.
The clearest voice in eschatology is ultimate reconciliation and it is not even close. In fact, the first school of Christian theology was in Alexandria where they read, wrote, and spoke Koine Greek as their native language and they were avowed Christian Universalists. (Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, etc)
Can anyone show me a single instance where ECT is warned about in the Old Testament? Not condemnation, or the strong disapproval listed in Daniel, but rather damnation in eschatology? This concept is nowhere to be found and isn't listed by any OT prophet. Shouldn't this belief, if legit, frown upon every page as a warning? Further, the only translations I can find that lists Sheol as "hell" in the OT are the KJV and NKJV. I've looked at around 50 English translations, and these are the only two translations that made this error. Buyer beware.
Likewise, there is no concept in the OT of God annihilating someone only to raise them in death to annihilate them again. Just the opposite. We read where the daughters of Sodom will be restored and there are zero descendants.
Therefore, using the OT to back a claim of ECT or annihilation in eschatology is an illogical fallacy. Think about it. So many scriptures have to be put in a bind to believe in either annihilation or ECT, although I do see prima facie support for both, especially if the KJV or NKJV is used. I also see where these views have proof texts that on the surface appear to back a specific theology when used in combination, but they dont stand up to critical thinking.
Although I gew up on the KJV, and came to repentance and faith via the KJV, I discovered many errors in translation. I don't think it's people's reading comprehension near as much as translation errors.
For example, aion and its derivatives means an age, not eternal. Every concordance or lexicon I can find lists aion as an age. There are ways to use aion to imply eternal, but that is not the meaning of the word. For example, Jesus said "kingdom, power and glory now and unto the ages" (aion/aionian). Here we see perpetual time is implied, as God is the noun being modified. But kolasis (remidial/correctional punishment) does not expand aion into perpetual time. Just the opposite. It makes no sense to "correct" someone eternally. Someone is either correctable or they aren't, and since both ECT and annihilation count as eternal punishments, it's like trying to put a square peg through a round hole.
If timoria (vindictive) aidios (always means eternal and never any other definition) was used, then we are looking at an eternal punishment, but kolasis (remedial punishment) and aion (an age) render the texts as "age-abiding" or "age-during punishment". There are word for word translations where aion is never translated as eternal and always an age. (Youngs Literal, Rotherham Emphasis, etc)
The simple truth is that Judaism has no concept of a partial Messiah. This is why John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world, and John says, He is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but the whole world. It's why Paul said, as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15 describes first fruit as Christ, then believers, then the end will come (the rest). God will be "all in all". How can God be all in all with ECT or annihilation? How could Christ make all things new if all things aren't made new? Just food for thought.
(Mysteries that are hidden in plain sight) We have been led to believe about a future judgment of nonbelievers, of hell and eternal torment. Jesus said “if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” No where did Jesus condemn anyone to a hell with eternal torment, for non-belief. That all changed by the Roman influence by Augustine in 380 with the introduction of eternal conscious torment in hell, to keep the illiterate masses under control. He did not believe in universal reconciliation, which was the dominant belief in that day by the early church fathers. The Bible teaches that this (Gehenna) hell was an actual place forsaken by God, with a beginning and an ending.
“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
Daniel 12:1-3 NKJV
“And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Isaiah 66:24 NKJV
ECT
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
All who are not saved aka written in the book of life end up in the lake of fire which is eternal conscious torment.
To think otherwise is simply denial of these verses. This entire video is trying to argue out of the plain reading of clear scripture. Same argumentation that Calvinist's use to argue out of terms like any, all, world, everyone.
On Revelation 14:11 and wherefore John is borrowing from the OT scriptures in the symbolism.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture [mercy] into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[For context]
And *the smoke* of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and *they have no rest day nor night* who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
{Revelation 14:10-11}
For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
It shall not be quenched NIGHT nor DAY; *the smoke* thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
*But* the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, *but none shall be there* and *all her princes shall be nothing*
{Isaiah 34:8-12}
@@larrybedouin2921 Your simply denying scripture, all of the verses I quoted are not symbolic they are literal. Please accept the consistently translated word of God, don't use an evasive excuse of symbolism to escape the text which is what you are doing. Not one verse I quoted is symbolic per the context.
But whatever you need to do to sleep at night.
@@JStevensdk7
The beast is symbolism.
@@larrybedouin2921 The beast is a title or name, not a symbolic reference of this character to a wild animal or boat/bear.
@@JStevensdk7
A beast represents a kingdom. Read your bible.
“That whosoever believeth in him *should not perish* but have eternal life.”
{John 3:15}
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
{Luke 13:3}
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so *let the wicked perish* at the presence of God.
{Psalm 68:2}
For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, *and it shall not be*
...
But *the wicked shall perish* and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; *into smoke shall they consume away*
{Psalm 37:10 & 20}
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up *FOR EVER AND EVER* and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Read Isaiah 34:6-10. It says the pitch of Edom will not be quenched night or day, and it's smoke will go up forever and ever. Is Edom still burning?
@@TKK0812 yes, the smoke is still burning.
the land of Edom doesn’t exist anymore as a tribe or nation. Hell does
It doesn’t sound like you know what pitch is . And yes, the smoke is still rising from waste of Edom.
It’s not literal smoke. Nor is it literal smoke in hell
Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
None shall pass through it forever and ever .
Edomites are never going to return, it isn’t coming back ever.
Free will = ignorance
@@aletheia8054 *yes, the smoke is still burning*
Smoke can't burn. Smoke results from burning. I asked if Edom is still burning.
*It doesn’t sound like you know what pitch is*
I do know what pitch is. It says "burning pitch". There is fire.
*the land of Edom doesn’t exist anymore as a tribe or nation*
Thank you for proving my point
*It’s not literal smoke. Nor is it literal smoke in hell*
So it's not literal smoke, but it's literally rising forever and ever? That's a consistent hermeneutic you have there.
*None shall pass through it forever and ever .
Edomites are never going to return, it isn’t coming back ever*
Exactly, because it/they were annihilated
*Free will = ignorance*
We're not discussing free will
@@TKK0812 Not Edom is still burning. That smoke is forever. It’s figurative.
And yes, it will smoke forever
@@aletheia8054 You're still missing the point.
The figurative language that is being used is describing a city and inhabitants that were destroyed. The inhabitants are dead. The city is no more.
The guy in the chat tried to tell me that Geenna was not h-, but the word Geenna is translated h- all over the English Bible
Didn’t he know that?
I've greatly studied this topic. This response will be slightly lengthy but hopefully it's helpful.
Gehenna is one of the four words that is often translated as "hell". The word Gehenna gets its root from the Hebrew or Aramaic word that means "Valley of (the son of) Hinnom." A particular part of the valley was called Topheth, or the "place of burning," and it lies right outside the southern walls of Jerusalem. It was a valley where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch (Baal) and some believe that it was possibly used as a garbage dump. As a part of Jewish history, Gehenna was an abhorrent place associated with death, fire, and burnt corpses rather than an image of eternal conscious torment.
In the Old Testament, Gehenna is referred to a total of thirteen times. The oldest historical reference to this valley is found in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz who sacrificed his sons there (2 Chron. 28:3). The same is said of Ahaz's grandson Manasseh in 2 Chron. 33:6.
The Book of Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but refers to "Topheth," meaning the "place of burning" (Isaiah 30:33), in which the Assyrian army is to be destroyed, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns of those that have rebelled against God (Isaiah 66:24). In the reign of Josiah, a call came from Jeremiah to destroy the shrines in Topheth and to end these abhorrent practices (Jeremiah 7:31-32, 32:35). It is recorded that Josiah destroyed the shrine of Molech on Topheth to prevent anyone sacrificing children there (2 Kings 23:10). Despite Josiah's ending of the practice, Jeremiah also included a prophecy that Jerusalem itself would be made like Gehenna and Topheth (Jeremiah 19:2-6, 19:11-14).
Gehenna is only referred to 12 times in the whole New Testament, with 11 of these references appearing in quotes from Jesus. Jesus only used the term in the Gospels and only spoke about it to Jews in the vicinity of Jerusalem.
Because Gehenna was a part of Jewish history, Jesus’s listeners would not have understood Jesus as speaking of eternal conscious torment because they understood Gehenna to be a place that had been used for child sacrifice and referred to as the valley of slaughter (Jer. 7) where corpses were burnt up. Jesus even used Gehenna strategically to make a point visually in a few conversations because of this knowledge by the Jewish people.
There is no mention of eternal conscious torment in association with Gehenna. In fact, Matthew 10:28 seems to indicate the exact opposite of conscious torment. God can completely destroy us. Jesus used the imagery and people’s prior knowledge of Gehenna to point out their wickedness and also as a way to illustrate the complete and ultimate destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire (the second death) at the final judgment.
@@casualgamer542 wrong
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up *FOR EVER AND EVER* and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
@@casualgamer542 Very well put.
@@aletheia8054 I don't want to get in a long comment debate with you but here are a few short points to consider.
Your original comment was in regard to Gehenna. Read how the Old Testament talks about Gehenna. It's unwise for us to remove Gehenna from their culture and context, just as it's unwise for us to remove Scripture from it's culture and context context.
Within the context of Revelation 14, this judgment unfolds on Earth in the presence of angels and the Lamb, with the perpetual smoke signifying complete destruction, not eternal conscious torment. Examples from Sodom, Edom, and Babylon illustrate how smoke lingers after as a memorial of God’s judgment. This symbolic language of rising smoke can be seen in numerous passages of Scripture, illustrating the severity of God’s judgment and as powerful imagery of destruction rather than endless suffering: Exo 19:18; 20:18; Psa 68:2; Isa 9:18-19; 51:6; Joel 2:30; Nah 2:13; Rev 9:2; 18:18. Later in Revelation 19:3, John even uses the same language of smoke rising forever to speak of Babylon's destruction. Rev. 14:10-11 also appears to be the same judgment mentioned in 2 Peter 2:5-6 and 2 Peter 3:5-7, where God will destroy the earth and the wicked by fire, reducing them to ashes. It is crucial to interpret Revelation 14:10-11 in light of the broader biblical narrative on the fate of the wicked, rather than using it as the sole basis to interpret other scriptures.
As far as the rich man and Lazarus, I believe that we have distracted ourselves from the lesson of the parable and have misread it as a proof-text for debates on eternal torment and the afterlife, perhaps to avoid facing its condemnation and charges made against those who were arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned with those spiritually or physically in need. Even if the point was to teach about the afterlife, the five brothers are still alive in the parable so it is unlikely that the final resurrection or judgment has taken place. Also, no matter what our understanding of this story is, it’s important to remember that the parable is referencing Hades which, no matter what view you hold to, is not the final fate of the wicked. I think it’s also unwise for us to use a parable to adopt a brand new doctrine about the afterlife that, before that point, was never taught in Scripture.
You can read more on what I have written on this topic at my blog. I've gone through all the major arguments. Just google (grafted-theology.blogspot) and then put dot com at the end since UA-cam doesn't like links lol.
@@TKK0812 Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
That is very well put. Their torment is “forever” “ day and night”
I have some pushback on some of these points, respectfully. I also don't hold firm to any position, so please keep that in mind.
I think a big part of the argument (or one of the arguments) made in this video can be summed up in "If you hold to eternal conscious torment, you need to create different categories of 'life' and 'death,' and scripture doesn't do that.
But scripture does do that. In Revelation 3:1, Jesus tells the church in Sardis that they have a reputation of being "alive," but they are "dead." Jesus doesn't literally mean physically dead. I'm sure you know this, because this "dead means dead" type of language is used by some Calvinists. But here, dead doesn't mean literally physically dead.
In the same way, the prodigal son was called "dead," but then considered "alive" by his father in the parable.
So whether conditional mortality is true or not, I don't think that the specific "creating new categories" argument is very accurate, because scripture does offer different categories of "dead" and "alive." I think there are actually people who are considered "dead" but aren't literally physically dead. They are spiritually dead and separate from eternal life that God gives, until they repent and believe of course.
Another thing is, calling eternal conscious torment a grace of God is, I believe, a strawman (not necessarily intentional, but a strawman none the less). Because of course eternal conscious torment isn't a grace of God. God wouldn't be granting the damned eternal life; He'd be keeping them conscious, while giving them the due consequences of their rebellion and rejection of Christ. So, alongside my points above, they wouldn't be eternally "alive," but eternally "dead." As in, eternally dead in sin, separated from the eternal life that God gives. This IS destruction. There would be no further hope for such a person, because the offer of God's grace unto eternal life would be over.
As far as God's character goes, it is actually true that there are certain aspects of God and things He allows or does that might rub us the wrong way in the flesh. Regardless of what doctrine of hell you hold, this will simply be a part of the faith. There are certain things we have to reapond to with, "I don't know, but God is good regardless of how things seem. We just have to trust Him."
Consider Job. Job is confused and in utter termoil about what is going on in his life. But when God shows up towards the end, Job confesses how wrong he was about his attitude towards God. Job says "Surely I spoke of things I did not understand..."
We have to do this with things like the "problem of evil and suffering." We don't know exactly why God allows what He allows. But we know He is good, and we have to trust Him.
Also in regards to God's character, Jesus Himself is going to be the one who treads the winepress. Regardless of what doctrine of hell you hold to, Jesus is the one who will be pouring out God's wrath in the end on human beings made in His image. That doesn't mean He wants them to perish, or that He takes pleasure in it, but He is going to be the one to do it regardless. It is "God's" wrath. Not satans wrath. But God's. His character is still pure and good and holy.
And in regards to God restoring all things, I have pushback against there not being a place in the restored creation where there will be God's wrath eternally poured out. In Revelation 20:10 it says: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." So satan and his devils are going to be tormented "forever and ever." Torment implies consciousness.
That's all I have I think brother. I hope you read this in a non combative way! God bless you!
Great pushback! I will try to deal with a few points.
*But scripture does do that. In Revelation 3:1, Jesus tells the church in Sardis that they have a reputation of being "alive," but they are "dead." Jesus doesn't literally mean physically dead*
I probably didn't explain myself well, but my point wasn't that death is always used literally. Death is absolutely used metaphorically and proleptically in scripture. My point is that we over spiritualize it and define it how we want to where it doesn't even mean death anymore. Like calvinists do when they say "dead men can't do anything" but then also believe dead men can do all sorts of things. I think scripture uses dead the same way we do. If someone were on death row, and we said "Dead man walking", of course we don't mean he is literally dead, but we also clearly don't mean he is spiritually separated from someone or unable to respond to different things. We mean he is as good as dead. When we tell someone they are "dead to us", we don't mean "spiritually separated", rather we mean that we are going to treat them as though they are dead. So when Jesus calls a church "dead" or we say "you were dead in your trespasses and sins", I am not saying they are literally dead, but I am also not completely divorcing the word from it's meaning even though it's being used metaphorically or proleptically. Does that make sense?
*Another thing is, calling eternal conscious torment a grace of God is, I believe, a strawman (not necessarily intentional, but a strawman none the less)*
I think you're simply begging the question here. I didn't say ECT was a grace of God, I said that the fact that God sustains them could rightly be said to be a grace of God. Do you believe the wicked will be able to sustain their own existence forever in hell? Where are the wicked ever said to be immortal?
*God wouldn't be granting the damned eternal life*
John Gill wrote that the lost “shall rise to life, to an immortal life, so as never to die more,”
John MacArthur says, “Every human being ever born lives forever
Wayne Grudem writes that the lost will “live forever in hell;”
This is my point, that ECT proponents do admit that the damned will live forever. That is eternal life. It's not eternal life with Christ, but it is eternal life nonetheless. My point is that existence or life or consciousness, whatever you want to call it, is only given to the saved. But because ECT proponents need to have the wicked eternally living without calling it eternal life, they again create unwarranted categories. That is my point. We miss that "eternal life" simply means we get to live forever. INCLUDED with that is that this eternal life will be in the presence of God, which is unspeakably wonderful, but the gift of God foundationally is living forever. When most read "eternal life" they immediately think a higher quality of life or a life with more abundant blessings, which is true. But in doing so, they miss the plain meaning of the text which is living for all eternity. Plain old "life" as we call it is a gift. A massive gift.
*As far as God's character goes, it is actually true that there are certain aspects of God and things He allows or does that might rub us the wrong way in the flesh. Regardless of what doctrine of hell you hold, this will simply be a part of the faith. There are certain things we have to respond to with, "I don't know, but God is good regardless of how things seem. We just have to trust Him.*
Which is exactly why I had no problem with ECT when I held to it, and if my current view is shown to be incorrect, I will have no issue adopting it again. My point here is that I do believe conditional immortality is more in line with God's character and how He acts in scripture. When God judged nations or persons, did He order them to be killed or to be captured and tormented? I believe the same will be true of the damned.
*And in regards to God restoring all things, I have pushback against there not being a place in the restored creation where there will be God's wrath eternally poured out. In Revelation 20:10 it says: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." So satan and his devils are going to be tormented "forever and ever." Torment implies consciousness*
We address this passage and Revelation 14 in the video coming out Thursday. I look forward to your feedback. Thanks for your kind words and charitable engagement.
@@TKK0812 thanks for the response brother! You guys did make some good points in the video, and I didn't say that in my comment. But you have given me some perspectives to consider!
@@Chupie77777your pfp is on point 👌👌😂
@@Professionaltrenchdigger thank you 😀
Isaiah says, “their work does not die”, and “they shall go,out and see the dead bodies of those who rebelled.” If the worms does not die the body is never consumed. This lines up with the teaching of the Lake of Fire. The reasin this is a fair judgment is that this life is made by God a complete open and shut case. Having been born in a state of fallen humanity we either embrace the free gift or we don’t, we either overcome through faith or we don’t. The judgment on all sin is the same, it cannot abide in eternity and any sin is less than perfect by and infinite degree. There is no need to rethink the teaching on hell as a lace of conscious eternal torment. Rather, ask why it is that so many choose it, as Christ said many there are who enter in by the broad road.
*If the worms does not die the body is never consumed*
The worm not dying and fire not being quenched speak to the finality of these elements accomplishing their purpose. They are consuming a dead body, which means the person is not experiencing conscious torment. Even if you could argue the worm literally never died and the fire literally will never go out, the person is still dead and unconscious, which is our position.
Jeremiah 17:27 / But if you do not listen to me, to keep the Sabbath day holy, and not to bear a burden and enter by the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.
The unquenchable fire of Jeremiah 17:27 says it will "devour" the palaces, not that they will burn forever. The word "unquenchable" means a fire that cannot be put out, not a fire that will never cease once it has consumed it's fuel.
That is a passage that I believe we responded to in our first video. If you'd like to hear our thoughts about it I'll share a link to that video here: ua-cam.com/video/u4_kCteLMFk/v-deo.htmlsi=2-5xhFLSzmmqPsyX
Spiritualize everything? You quoted (Romans 6:23) "wages of sin is death," as an argument for annihilation. Jesus said "If you believe in me, you will never die." So you think you will never physically die? How do you explain death, a physical annihilation, or a spiritual separation. Its either one or the other. It would help to re-read the woman at the well. There is a Biblical option with many scriptural examples.
Why not teach what is “God breathed.” He shows us over and over that He is a loving God, and He makes a way?
• (2 Samuel 14:14) For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that his banished ones are not expelled from Him.
On Revelation 14:11 and wherefore John is borrowing from the OT scriptures in the symbolism.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture [mercy] into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[For context]
And *the smoke* of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and *they have no rest day nor night* who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
{Revelation 14:10-11}
For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
It shall not be quenched NIGHT nor DAY; *the smoke* thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
*But* the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, *but none shall be there* and *all her princes shall be nothing*
{Isaiah 34:8-12}
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire (Geenna) that *NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED*
^^ Don't harden your hearts folks! The Greek word "apollymi" translated to "destroy" does not mean to annihilate!
@@user-jw7uf5pv6h it’s the Greek word sbennumi with an alpha privative
It means not extinguished and perpetual
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
@@user-jw7uf5pv6h it means to kill. It isn’t hardening your heart. That’s a weird thing to say.
@@aletheia8054 why do you think the alpha primitive indicates that instead of inability?
@@jordandthornburg The alpha privative negates the word, and gives it the opposite meaning. It means not extinguished.
The mother church and her daughters teach the false doctrine of eternal punishment, causing the people to have a temporal fear of God rather than a reverential fear.
The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul comes straight from the Alpha apostasy.
"Ye shall surely not die"
"The worm never dies".
And backing up: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"; not: "God loves you."
Extremely dangerous to modify Hell as anything other than conscious eternal torment, because it is extreme error, because the Bible is clear enough.
But it doesn't fit your pre-suppositions, so you wrench the Scriptures, which the Scriptures also warn against.
There really is something to repent of here (change your thinking).
Return to orthodoxy of at least a decent (and consistent) hermeneutic.
👋 the worm never dies. Not the person never dies.
For the wages of sin is death; (not hell;) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
{Romans 6:23}
Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha *into ashes* condemned them with an overthrow, making them *an ensample* unto those that after should live ungodly;
{2 Peter 2:6}
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are *set forth for an example* suffering the vengeance of *eternal fire*
{Jude 1:7}
(Sodom is not still burning, so it is not the fire / punishment that is eternal, but rather the consequences thereof.)
And ye [the saints] shall tread down the wicked; for *they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet* in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
{Malachi 4:3}
Thou [satan] hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and *I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth* in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
{Ezekiel 28:18-19}
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such *the second death* hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
{Revelation 20:6}
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. *This is the second death*
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
{Revelation 20:14-15}
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, [hell] where is thy victory?
{1 Corinthians 15:55}
What do you imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
{Nahum 1:9}
@@larrybedouin2921
re "worm never dies", and so on.
Your reasoning is out of order. Your exegesis in error. Your teaching false. Your theology destructive.
Jude 1:7
"... are pre-laid: a specimen-of-disgrace of eternal fire, experiencing justice."
It is the fire (noun) that is eternal (its adjective). Axiomatic exegesis from an axiom of language.
It is not an "type/impression/example", that is a different word. Here it is a specimen-of-disgrace. It is not about what eternal fire *is*; it is about what eternal fire *does*. Thereby being a *testimony* about the focus of *sin*, the judgment of the *doing*, not the focus of the *being*, the human. The people of those cities were and are the "as" of the angels of 1:6. The judgment/punishment of the being (the entity, whether angel or human) will happen later. And it will be based on their doing.
Furthermore, it is "experiencing", not "by experiencing". And this clause is dependent upon probably the one before it ("pre-laid..."), but maybe upon "kept" of 1:6, which is the main verb of 1:6-7 which is one sentence.
"He has kept angels too ... as Sodom and Gomorrah ... are pre-laid ... experiencing justice."
Also, "pre-laid" is present tense, telling of a current situation, even current now; and so, "experiencing", since it too is in the present tense, tells of the present of the present of "pre-laid"; "experiencing" is not in the past of "pre-laid". This, of course, is hugely consequential. They are experiencing justice now.
Consider Danial 12:2: "...eternal life, but the others to *disgrace* and everlasting *contempt*." *Testimony*.
Testimony of right and wrong, in eternity, for eternity, is of dominating importance over most things including the existence of Hell. In fact, Hell exists as a consequence, *because of* of the importance of God's testimony. God is eternal, his testimony is eternal... Hell is eternal... torment is eternal.
The temporary thing is both types of beings being "kept" (Jude1:6) ... for future eternal justice.
2Thess1:9: "... *will* pay *justice*: eternal ruination -- ...".
My understanding is that Gehenna was the Burning-Garbage valley area, which was the representation of Hell and the eternal fire. It was always burning. It was garbage so that's where the worms were. The worms ate away the garbage. The people would be the garbage. If the worms never die they always have people to decay/destroy ... forever. So, the human cannot die a second death of annihilation, nor be it temporary.
The second death is the lake of fire. There is no sufficient evidence or consistent reasoning to reverse the explicit affirmations of it being eternal.
Death was last thing tossed in. So, for book-of-lifers, they will no longer ever die. Death is completely separated from them. Yet for those in the fire, one can't speculate beyond *their* death remaining to be eternal, not only because elsewhere it says so, but also because the extent of speculation would be that Death itself would die forever ... in the lake of fire ... only *reinforcing* that the torment and death of the sinners and devils would never end.
Matt 25:46: "eternal punishing".
Rev 20:10: "and they will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages."
Even if one would erroneously argue that age/eternal is not forever, certainly it is absurd to argue "unto the ages of the ages" is not forever/everlasting/eternal.
Back to testimony and the ashes.
Differentiate focus from perspective. As with Provisionism, the perspective is in grave error because the perspective from the jump is bad. One may be focusing on Christ, but the concern of "Human-centered" is regarding the perspective. The perspective needs to be God-centered, not just the focus, which is nearly a given a Christian theologian is going to have at least broadly correct.
The direction of definitions, *reasoning*, everything is supposed to go in one direction. If you judge God the way he judges us that is an extreme fallacy. As with reasoning, etc. He is the Creator; we are the creatures. He is holy, holy, holy; we are messed up. We are the reflection, and so, cannot be the premise to speculate back toward God's ways and consider it any kind of concrete reason and certainly not integrous conclusion.
There's earth and there's the heavenlies.
For testimony and instruction, the sequence usually goes: first the natural, then the spiritual. The shadow/form, then the reality (Jesus) which is by definition a God-centered concept. Yet what is seen was made out of what is unseen. The spiritual has always been first in terms of existence. And it is more fundamental in terms of importance. But for instruction and testimony: first natural, then spiritual.
The ashes are a testimony and an *effect* and a shadow. A shadow is an effect. That we can see in the natural, so we can learn. Not to learn about the eternal fire as a thing, but about it as a purpose and therefore the consequences ... of sin.
Natural death is different in kind from spiritual death, because they are different substances. You are a spirit, you have a soul, you live in a body. The spirit and soul are closely joined. Your spirit will exist forever. Your body will not so you will need a new body. The soul in Hell will be in decay and destruction and torment, i.e. spiritual death, for eternity.
If punishment is not forever, then, like Queen said: Nothing really matters... .
Luke 12:5.
"But I will indicate to you someone you would fear: fear the One, with the killing, having authority to cast into Gehenna.
Yes, I say to you, fear this one."
@@larrybedouin2921
Oh, and I forgot to point out that "eternal fire" in Jude 1:7 is in the genitive case, which is categorized by various experts into 29 to a zillion subcategories. It's relationship to the word "specimen-of-disgrace" (which is not the misleading "example" as you would have it) supports my view.
Don't harden your hearts folks!! The Greek word for "destroy" "apollymi" does not mean to annihilate! Don't give in to the ear ticklers! The Bible explicitly says this will happen!
Some of the first century church fathers held this belief at least to some degree.
But although we can devise ways to worm our way around the words of Jesus in the Bible, to make them seem to mean what we prefer that they mean, we have no right to change them, or even to assign another meaning to them.
I think hell is a very difficult doctrine, but I do trust Jesus. I won't stand as His judge. Instead, I conclude that if He taught an eternal hell, He did it in spite of His love, and did so without ridding Himself of love. He no doubt grieves prople who choose hell over His salvation, just like He did the children of Jerusalem He wanted to gather, but they wouldn't be gathered. He, and not the ones who redesign Him, gave His life for us. His love is real, not just a platform to launch a new "noble lie"..
Hi, Linda. I’d encourage you to engage with our arguments and not what you think to be our motives. I could just as easily assert you’re trying to “worm” your way out of the words of Jesus, but that wouldn’t be productive or a mature way to engage with people who disagree with me. We have a Part 1 where we deal with Jesus’ own words on the topic.
I also trust Jesus with final punishment, and had no issue with the idea of eternal conscious torment when I held to it. The only thing that changed my mind was scripture.
We’re also not using His love as a platform to launch a lie. If you have a disagreement, then please bring it from scripture.
@@TKK0812
I do not like the doctrine of hell, but when i look at my attitude, it is kind of strange how different my attitude can be when Im thinking of myself being in danger of hell, andvwhen it is about somebody else, especialy the people who reject Jesus because He taught hell. I can look at my own sin as worthy of damnation, although that's only when I compare my sins to Gods righteousness. If I compare myself to others as a standard, I might think I'm not so bad, comparatively thinking. But its when I think about telling those angry people about eternal hell that I am afraid to offend their feelings, as if I am throwing gasoline on a hot, raging fire they ate going to let rage out of control. In those times, I feel like I understand where they are coming from, and you could call my feelings sympathetic, although , for myself, I do not believe what they do. I wish then that I had the nerve to tell them they need to allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin, or that I wouldn't be shoutrd down before I could tell them that, and make them understand it. I just think thats peciliar as a supposed virtuous, caring attitude. I believe in the possibility and righteousness of hell for me, but then, I'm experiencing the conviction of the Holy Spirit about my own sins. About theur sins, could it not be that Im thinking more of my relationship with them, rather that that they get the salvation Jesus could give them? It's traumatic that we want them to share this good gift, and they violently revile it. But this strange double standard, my unwillingness to be honest about what the Bible really says, if it's for them, not me, does not speak well of my love for them. It couldn't, could it? If I need Jesus, why should I accept pressure to believe and affirm that they don't need Him? My truth, but not theirs?
Some of the Bible verses, which I do not enjoy. None of them really allow for annihilation.
Mark 9:43 listed below
Revelation 14:11.
Matthew 18:8 KJV - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into *everlasting fire.*
Matthew 25:41 KJV - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, *into everlasting fire,* prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 KJV - And these shall go away into *everlasting punishment* but the righteous into life eternal.
I have great difficulty with these verses, if I'm talking about other people. But the fact that I don't feel that way about my own need for salvation, tells me that what I like to feel is tender hearted, may not really be so kind. If it's true, other people need it, too.
Not because I'm cold blooded about this, but because I can't afford to doubt Jesus. I know enough from hard experience, that I'm not going to doubt Jesus, nor am I going to set myself up as His judge. I'm not going to play "Jesus Seminar" and vote His difficult words off the island. That is the work of a "god-maker" theologian, a creator and modifier of the "Noble Lie". That is "having a form of godliness" (but) "denying the power thereof" (i.e., denying God's reality). The God, the Jesus, I believe in, is alive, real, and as He says He is. The "Noble Lie" can go hang; it's being de-christianized, anyway.
@@lindajohnson4204 Hey Linda,
I am just going to comment on a couple of these verses, but I would encourage you to listen to our first video where we cover some of these verses. The video coming out Thursday will address Revelation 14.
*Matthew 18:8 KJV - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire*
So I presume your point here is that everlasting fire means you believe people experience the fire forever, but the text doesn't say that. you're reading that into the text. Take for instance Jude 7:
"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
We agree in Matthew 18:8 that the fire is eternal, but that is God and His righteous judgement. This says nothing about the fuel however (unbelievers). Sodom and Gomorrah we're told serve as an example for us of punishment of eternal fire. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning and being tormented by eternal fire, or were they completely destroyed by the eternal fire? You cannot simply assume that because that which doles out a punishment is everlasting that therefor that which is being punished will experience it forever. That doesn't follow.
*Matthew 25:46 KJV - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal*
This text says that unbelievers will go away into everlasting punishment, which we agree. We believe that punishment is death. The text does not say they will go away into everlasting punishING. When someone is given the death penalty, that is an everlasting punishment because the consequences of the punishment are everlasting or eternal. When someone is given lethal injection, do we say they underwent a 3 minute punishment because that's how long it took to administer the poison? Of course not, we say they have undergone an everlasting punishment, namely they died. Scripture uses this construction often in the NT:
Hebrews 5:9 speaks of our "eternal salvation". Does this mean Jesus is constantly going to be saving us, or is it a salvation that is eternal. Obviously the latter.
Hebrews 6:2 speaks of "eternal judgement". Does this mean people will be being judged for forever, or is it a judgement with permanent consequences?
Hebrews 9:12 speaks of "eternal redemption". Again, is Jesus forever going to need to be redeeming us, or is it a redemption with eternal or permanent outcome?
Notice also this eternal punishment is contrasted with "eternal life". The righteous will inherit eternal life, and the wicked will go away to eternal punishment (death).
It is unfortunate that your argument here has absolutely no substance to it. You can trust Jesus all you want and still be wrong. If you want to claim that hell is eternal conscious torment then you ought to at least make a case for it instead of making a bunch of moralistic, holier than thou statements. Do you seriously mean to suggest those of us who disagree with your view of hell don't trust in Jesus? What evidence do you have of this claim? I would trust in Jesus whether He taught ETC or not. We both trust in Jesus. The question is which one of us is wrong about what the Bible says. That's where the argument should be had.
lol you wanna really bake your noodle combine a lot of these texts with Preterisim…
Even people who do not believe in an afterlife are still terrified of death. If you gave the an option to suffer or to die, most would choose suffer because there is something in us that desires to keep on existing.
In him is not a place that you get yourself to