New Data Show Students Without Test Scores Perform WORSE at Elite Colleges
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
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I would take this with a grain of salt. Someone's GPA in college LARGELY dependent on what they're studying. Majors like Engineering have a DIFFICULT and packed course load while Business majors get to draw flowers for homework. GPA doesn't matter as much in Engineering to become an engineer but it means everything if you want to become a doctor (you need a good gpa for med school).
You would think institutions can easily aggregate this data. Simple get all junior year premeds from all majors bingo because these are likely to be committed premed and strive for a top GPA. It’s easy to get this data because advisors can easily give out the data.
Who gives a damn about freshman GPA
@@fools5271Maybe the testing companies lobbied for the experiment to be done this way to swing in their favor? ("look guys you NEED our test") I have 0 evidence to back that up tbh but these non profits love their money and US companies are notoriously evil
Test optional shouldn’t be allowed at elite institutions. Grade inflation at high schools throughout the USA is out of control.
Test optional should not be allowed at any institution (private/public) that grants BS or higher degrees
Say the quiet part out loud. Grade inflation is happening ONLY at expensive Private and Religious High School.
@@harrychu650It’s across the board
@@21stcenturydadd That is not accurate, do the research and you will find that grade inflation is concentrated at private and religious schools.
Which makes perfect sense when you understand that parents are paying upwards of $50k a year for these middle/high schools.
What about removing SAT or ACT scores and evaluating kids with exceptional extracurricular activities, personalities, and excellent awards? Many kids do not need them as rich kids with tutors and private classes like the one Superior advertises. They are kids who have to work and take care of their families and do not have the option to be trained like a puppy to get "a score."
I attend Purdue and the admissions office knew for a long time that SAT scores were a strong predictor of college performance. I'm surprised that most universities didn't know this
Because S.A.T. scores are not strong predictors of college performance. They are commensurate with family income, which is a decent predictor of college performance, since those with money can afford more tutoring and are less likely to need financial aid and employment while in college.
@@matthewbond7034 So then why is it that poor people who perform well on the SAT do well in college and the ones who don't do well don't perform well in college?
@@matthewbond7034I don’t believe u! I believe in scientific evidence.
@@jimmy79889, what is your evidence for that claim?
Your commentary at 6:51 is specious because the percentage of students coming from disadvantaged backgrounds at so-called elite institutions is far less than the percentage coming from households making $120K per year or more. The cultures between economic classes are different and that influences a child's upbringing and performance on standardized tests. A student coming from a non-English speaking home and whose parents are laborers will most likely not have fencing, equestrian, lacrosse, chess, ballet, or thespian lessons from an early age. Nor will they likely have someone to read engaging books to them. These early childhood activities can significantly affect a student's performance on standardized tests in high school. It is not just a matter of being able to afford SAT/ACT test prep classes. There is a lot of other stuff that happens in a child's life before high school that affects admissions to highly selective colleges. I suppose I am overstating the obvious.
Absolutely man! I went to a Title 1 school as a lower middle class student and I knew SO MANY kids that literally had to work jobs to help their PARENTS pay bills. As someone from the middle class I noticed that their lives were SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult because of the economic barriers.
Was test optional really ever about “we think standardized tests are not a good marker” or was it simply a way to let in those the school wants to let in (e.g., linebackers, donors kids, celeb kids) without hurting their rankings? I feel bad for the suburb kids who think that test optional was meant for them as well; it wasn’t. If your school has 15 AP classes, then you better submit scores. I’ve consumed everything available over the last year or so; Supertutor is the only one who cuts through the BS gives it to us straight.
Watched your videos for years and I’m going to Duke in the fall! Thank you for your honest and realistic videos, it really helped to guide me through the process!
There's going be a counter-argument that certain groups are unlikely to submit test scores, and grading is biased against those groups. So, the test scores being a poor predictor of anything argument will go on forever.
Though in this day and age it’s really hard for me to trust any study even if they are from experts, I’m not surprised a study like this exists. MIT has done their own research which led them to being test required. Yale while not test required is heavily encouraging standardized testing. Let’s not forget about the UC’s from a couple years ago sued to being test blind also found the importance of standardized testing on low income students. Not to mention the general consensus on every single “how I got into (insert school)” will always say “stats don’t matter as much” which is definitely a true statement and still a needed statement towards parents who are obsessed with perfect stats but I do think we are getting too comfortable with this and being too optimistic about the stats portion that people are now underestimating their value in the application. The current message should be “stats matter more than you think”
In my opinion I think that test scores matter when it comes to going to STEM, Polytechnic, Magnet, institute of technology schools as well as schools that focus their attention on science, technology, reading, engineering, and math. I just wish that accessing college prep classes, non monetary or monetary merit based opportunities, tutoring, self learning centers, prep books, regular books, college prep counselors and other resources was more available to students in low socioeconomic communities
Water is wet.
Between your legs too
Ironically, many previous reports (even before test-optional) said GPA was a better indicator of success. Interesting.🤔
A few things: 1) Those reports weren't isolated to elite colleges -- they were ALL colleges-- and students often self sort into colleges that reflect their level (those studies also came from a time when tests were required -- so then using college GPA as a litmus test is inevitably creating muddy data-- much easier to get an A at community college than in O-Chem at Berkeley) 2) Grade inflation has been rising-- so studies from even 10 20 years ago are becoming of more limited value. 3) both stats TOGETHER have always been the MOST predictive regardless -- with maybe one exception which was the CPS (chicago) study that found test scores became less predictive in the case of ACT scores above about a 31 -- but *were* predictive for mid range and lower scores. But this only looked at kids in Chicago public school district-- perhaps not where grade inflation is most rampant (private schools are notorious for it...). 4) Being test optional makes it more likely that a student decided NOT to prepare for standardized tests or make extra effort. That alone may be some of the story-- that these include the less motivated students overall who are looking for an easier way out. I.e. in the past they had to do it even without personal motivation -- now without that extra dedication it often doesn't happen
I heard the opposite from studies. That's interesting! I remember reading test scores were actually a better indicator of success since everyone has to take the same test whereas some schools have different grading standards.
I read the similar if not the same reports. 🤔🤔🤔
@@hellogoodbye637 I would have to agree with you. Many schools and teachers inflate grades to get their students into top schools, don’t want to deal with parents, etc
It sounds like they've concluded that it isnt just sat/act though, as now they specifically allow students to submit AP scores instead (Yale specifically rather).
Great information Supertutor.
My daughter went test optional and attends an Ivy League school. She did EXCEPTIONALLY WELL her 1st semester.
Congratulations for your daughter. :) No one said that you have to submit test scores or take a test in order to do exceptionally well at college. It goes without saying that a student can do amazingly well at college without tests. The main point of the video and the study is that test scores are more indicative than high school GPA with regard to academic performance at college.
@@stefanos72 LOL. Did you read the title of the video???? My daughter is “data,” if you will, that Students Without Test Scores Perform Exceptionally Well at Elite Schools. So, needless to say, based on real life experience, I disagree with the premise that test scores are indicative of college outcome, EVEN THOUGH MY DAUGHTER GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL WITH A PHENOMENAL GPA.
There are always outliers. Not every single data point will always align with averages. I was pro test optional when it was applied pre-Covid, and in very select instances because there are always outliers. But now it’s become a game that in some cases helps kids that are lazy game the system. If your daughter did well that only means that there is someone pulling that average down even more, someone who got away with getting in when they really probably shouldn’t have.
@@estherbradley3218 you probably misunderstood what data is. One data point can be just noice. There are always outliner cases. One data point doesn't negate the conclusion
my question is always what classes are they taking. A computer science degree and stem classes are harder than women's studies
I go to Westford Academy, and we are a public high school that does not have grade inflation
My daughter’s high school did not have grade inflation either.
If your school is very renowned for its rigor, admissions officers will know and evaluate you according
@@TennisBarbie119 well, hopefully
This is common sense.
1. I think in general 4 years of a student's course load is a better way to assess their academic acumen than that of the 3 or 4 hours taking a test. 2. Given that the first class of IVy Plus students to be admitted under test-optional policies are now juniors, I'd be curious to see longer-range data on this matter that looked at graduation rates, etc. On a personal note, I have a daughter who is now a junior at Ivy Plus schools ( Columbia ) and did not submit test scores and is doing just fine academically--. Columbia has announced that they have no intention of going back to making tests mandatory... so maybe what these schools are seeing in terms of student performance is a case-by-case situation
dah. That's why we have standardized tests in many countries.
The DEI is bringing down Harvard and Yale. The donations that Harvard relies heavily on are way down, and the academic performance of the DEI admits at Yale is low. I'm definitely going to stay tuned to see how this all plays out.
This study is most likely true tho, whether it is marketing in her side or not
We make more money on college consulting now than test prep FYI. When one goes up, the other goes down. Economically, my company is pretty well hedged-- and right now hourly rates for college consulting are higher than test prep given market conditions. But I see people getting in test optional who I think shouldn't be getting in, I hate telling kids if you are bad at a test and have literal deficiencies in math and and reading comprehension go and hide rather than try, and yes, I believe in tests. From an ethics standpoint, I want what is true and what is best for students. I also know that knowing how to take tests is an important skill for college, for passing medical boards, for many situations students regularly encounter. I am grateful I can tell students once again at least the ambitious ones that maybe hopefully tests are going to start to matter more again and buck up and make an effort-- don't get lazy and angle.
Attending a top 20 institution doesn't guarantee success, anymore, because someone at a top 120 might have all A's and be just as good. So then, they attend graduate school and having attended a top 20 doesn't matter after that. Pretty soon, the whole illusion of where you attended school mattering goes out the window.
It’s pretty obvious that test scores are the best indicator of college success. High school teachers inflate grades for whatever reason - to brag, appease parents, etc. And I’m glad the study showed high test scores were not an indicator wealth. My siblings and I are examples of low income kids, working hard and scoring really well on these tests. I’m tired of folks who don’t work hard, always calling themselves victims, wanting all the benefits handed to them.
If all schools practice grade inflation, then there's no problem for admissions. It balances out.
I love the SAT, but it’s hard to get all the answers right, but some you can get it.
Finally some sense! Yes the SAT matters! In many countries, they only care about your test.
But the test is not the S.A.T.
Yale recently conducted a review of the relationship between standardized testing scores and first year GPA for their admitted students based on the data they had gathered from being test-optional these past several years, and they found that standardized testing scores were the single best factor for predicting students’ Yale GPA. Quinlan mentioned that this went against the generally agreed-upon data about test-optional policies, but it was the conclusion nonetheless. However, Caltech conducted the same study and found that standardized testing was not a good indicator of first year GPA, which is why they’re still test optional, and Caltech is a much more academically rigorous institution than Yale.
The Caltech study design was not exactly the same. It only looked at physics and mathematics first year required course grades not all grades.
They also have not released any of the actual data publicly. Just statements on their analysis as far as I know.
I won't bet there are more political driving in Caltech study than real statistics reasoning.
MIT had similar concerns and clearly reach a different conclusion.
@@SupertutorTV Omg, are you Brooke? Hi! I’ve been watching your videos for the past year, and now it’s my college application cycle. I was recently deferred by Princeton, and I watched your video about writing a letter of continued interest, which was very helpful for me to write my own. You’ve given me a lot of insight into elite college admissions, and I want to say “thank you!”
Not using standardized testing was a way to admit more under represented groups that scored lower on these standardized test...
On average, White and Asian students have higher standardized test scores than Hispanics and African Americans... which is a large reason why making standardized test optional would admit more Hispanics and African Americans...
I disagree, I think the biggest beneficial group is privilege kids with connection. In the past, they can legitimately fake everything but a score in standardized test. Now finally they got rid of the last hurtle.
Minority kids actually could benefit from test scores since they usually don't have much more to show with limited resources
@@user-dr1qo4zz9q That’s exactly true. There are very well documented articles that state that the whole “holistic” approach to admissions by these top schools were first used to actually keep Jewish students out who were the top of applicant pools. Now, the “holistic” approach is used to keep Asians out and used as an excuse to admit under-qualified legacy applicants.
@@user-dr1qo4zz9q, wealthy students get higher S.A.T. scores because they receive lots of test prep tutoring, and scoring high on the S.A.T. takes much less work than achieving a high g.p.a.
@@bpxl53yewz29, There doesn't need to be any approach to admit under qualified legacy applicants.
They get in because they have the money. It's simple as that.
If high schools of every type across America are showing grade inflation, it is mostly from automatic adding of points to grades in A.P. & honors classes, and this was instigated by middle-class & upper-middle-class families, who don't want their children "punished" for taking challenging courses, and it was also a result of mediocre, over-priced private & religious schools trying to con their families that the students are really smart and receiving excellent educations.
As for S.A.T. & A.C.T. scores: They are commensurate with family income. Admission to "elite colleges" is also commensurate with family income. "Success" in these colleges is also commensurate with family income. Ignoring income while trying to compare S.A.T. & A.C.T. scores to G.P.A.s and to college "success" and then using all this as a predictor is performing a transparent scam.
Excellent points.
The study she cited stated the opposite. High test scores did not correlate with wealth. So tired of that victim argument. I’m low income, worked my butt off and scored near perfect on the SAT.
Who paid for this study?
Pretty sure this was from a study conducted at the Opportunity Insights group
It was a group within Harvard.
DEI is the death of merit
Many businesses are selling SAT problems and courses to students in order to profit from their fear of not getting into college. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, many students with high scores ranging from 1570 to 1600 have submitted their scores, while others with scores ranging from 1400 to 1530 have chosen to go test-optional instead of competing with those who have perfect scores. Before the pandemic, a good Ivy score was considered to be between 1490 and 1550, but now, many students with these scores prefer to go test-optional. Some schools have even made tests permanently optional. It is difficult to believe that students with almost perfect GPAs for four years are performing poorly in college. Last year, my niece went test-optional with a score of 1490 and was accepted to MIT, Yale, and Brown. She ultimately chose Yale because she felt it was a better fit for her. Students should not be afraid to push themselves to get perfect scores on the SAT, but they should also focus more on their extracurricular activities, competitions, internships, and volunteering experiences. These are all important aspects of their college applications and can demonstrate their commitment to learning over the course of four years, which is something that one test score cannot overshadow.
I think test optional gives universities more flexibility to admit more legacy and athletes. Everything goes back to $$$$ 💰💰
Brooke is great, but I think she underestimates the intent of schools like Harvard. Harvard is test optional for what I think are political reasons. It gives them the power to micromanage admissions. If you think about it, SAT and ACT scores are the ONLY truly objective measure of comparing students for admissions purposes. In the elite UK schools, Cambridge and Oxford, extra-curriculars is not weighed nearly as heavily as Harvard. These are subjective criteria, which again allows Harvard to, for instance, discriminate against Asian students. Since Harvard is primarily a private school, I believe they have the right to discriminate as they choose, BUT, if I had a student going to college, I would steer him toward the UK schools.
More students can fake their gpa! Fair test group fails to see that!how ironic!
high SAT score doesn't matter for some ivy schools. They want students with EDI. It sucks!