What's interesting in college philosophy courses is that everyone phrases the argument through self identity via the use of objects (ship of Theseus for example). But almost no one will transfer the thought dilemma to the world, solar system, seasons, weather, universe. Soon as you zoom out from Solipsism you realize that the thought experiment is meant to have us acknowledge that Past, Present and Future are different but not wholly different. They're not there to be quantified (many things aren't), but rather, acknowledged.
I recall a quote from John Green on his piece about Lascaux: "...This is a memory that you cannot return to." The timber is irrelevant, IMHO. The ship of Theseus ceased to be when Theseus and his crew ceased voyaging on it. Even if you recovered all of the timber and brought back Theseus and his crew to sail the ship, at best you'd have a replica of what once was. A shadow of the acts that became legendary. Those days slipped by, and you can collect all of the artifacts they left behind that you like; they'll never be back.
The realist in me thinks that if everything right down to the nails and wooden pegs that held it together have been replaced then physically it's not the same ship - it's now a replica - however what the ship represents, it's voyages, it's collective memories of its crew, the memories of those who watched it sail away and later return from the voyages - in their minds it's the same ship. Perhaps it's both the same and neither like some mix-up of the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment?
You can give a simplified answer. Let's take for example the football club you love and support. Thrive through the years, it changes coaches, players, stuff, owner, president, even fans. How can it be the same team? It comes down to the final answer, it is what people believe it is. Athenians kept believing even after the ship was completely changed that was the ship of Theseus, your team even though is not the same as it was 10-20-30-50 years ago(where you prob not have even born) is the team people and fans believe it is.
My take on this is pretty simple, "identity" is a cognitive aspect of objects and collectives of objects. Identity is assigned entirely by animals like humans. There is no such thing as objective identity, as identity itself is a philosophical construct If Ship 1 and ship X are lost, then uncovered millenia in the future, long after Theseus himself has been forgotten, NEITHER is the ship of Theseus, because there is nothing to assign that identity to them anymore. They are both just nameless ships from a bygone era
either your explanation is correct, and i'm ok with that, or it simply could be the quantum information that your mambo jambo demonstration could not help to erase
This has always been my solution before even i saw Wandavision because I have pondered on this question long before that. I was kind of surprised why it became such a big philosophical discussion and people weren't aware of it.
Pokemon Anime's worldbuilding are like Ship of Theseus The wear and tear of that ship are any Superpowered beings that aren't Pokemon themselves as well Ash's character depths and hidden potentials
New to this. Shouldn’t expectation play a role too? One should expect the wood to rot and expect to have all the parts replaced. When you visit museums, do you think those dinosaur bones are all real? It’s the concept that matters.
I think the mereological essentialism makes the most sense. Many criticise it since everything is changing, so everything ceases to exist in every new moment. My response is: "So what?" Pointing that out isn't criticizing a mistake. It is making a statement. I do agree that the Statue of Liberty of today is not the same Statue of Liberty of a century prior. Yes, on a purely "come from" basis, it is the same, but in function? Time has changed it. It is no longer the same. It will never again exist as it did a hundred years ago. Similarly, I oft try to apply this concept to myself. I am not today the same individual as I was as a child. I've grown, changed. The past is done, dead. I can even believe this applies to every existing moment, depending on the needs of specificity.
the ship of Theseus is an artifact in a museum overtime its planks wood rots and is replaced with new planks, when no original plank remains, is it still the ship of theseus? secondly if those removed planks are restored and re assembled free of the rot is that.. the ship of theseus neither is the true ship both are the true ship well then we are agreed.
Well a missing part of the equation is the crew. You can replace the boat but you can't replace the people that made it the Ship of Theseus. Ships 1 2 & 3 with the same process for the crew are the Ship. But ships 4 & X are different. (Example) Ship 4 with a completely new crew can't remember previous memories or adventures of the originals so that would make it it's own entity with new memories and adventure to be had. Ship X while it was ship 1 at one time if the crew is changed or completely new it will fall in with 4 because boats can't talk and tell stories about "the good ole days".
Quite entertaining, but it feels like "big words to state something very very obvious". The issue was even featured in (among many other places) the Only Fools and Horses episode with one character's broom having had the head replaced several times and the handle also replaced several times.
You can also look at us humans in this way. We all change through our lives. We are not the same person we were as children. When, if ever, do we lose our "identity"? Is our "indentity" in our name? Because that is the one thing that never changes in our lives.
The answer is simple... Everything exists only at one moment in time. Go a millisecond forward or backward, and it changes it to something of a different time. Another way to look at it, if you take a group of 3 people and remove one, it's no longer a trio, but a duo. Likewise, human cells split and die all the time. The group of cells is what we are, so we constantly change.
If it's symbolic - then it's still the ship of theseaus under the assumption we are observing it as a symbol. If it's a lived experience - then no. It's the ship of theseus when theseus was on the ship.
I replaced all my skin, Internal organs chemistry changed, maybe every atom since birth. Does my consciousness changed? Does my identity changed as my mother provided me all the matters which I changed while growing and replacing damaged cell?
Personally I feel like the ship of theseus is the ship theseus is using. The moment theseus died it stopped being "the ship of theseus" and started being "the ship theseus last used". In the same vein if theseus used a different ship, even for a single trip, that ship would be "the ship of theseus". Objects aren't just things that exist, they are meant to be interacted with.
3:03 by the very nature of creating four separate diagrams.. you've already linguistically separated the ship into four separated essentially different and like entities. I stopped at 7:37 recognizing this as a distraction from larger issues at hand in terms of the Esoteric dilemma represented by the philosophical problem of Theseus and his ship. If you take a religion or philosophy and change it enough times, it is no longer that thing (at all) it becomes a profanity of that thing and not that thing. It is your choice to profane the wisdoms of the past and manufacture a consensus around the thing you are choosing to change. OR YOU CAN CHOOSE to craft something new entirely. This is why Christians tend to be straight arrows for Christianity and chaos magicians are eclectic in their discordant mix and match appeal (don't get me wrong Chaos also has it's own dogma). But I've seen entire mythologies rewritten to suit this Theseus program which isn't important who cares. I don't do you? Well I do, actually. Because if you're going to quote an author you should quote them for what they say not for what they supposedly said that looks better in your point of view. Thoth literally murdered those who wrecked the message. I miss nothing but nice try. If you're trying to get me to go along with your narrative it's not going to work because I'm literally not from here. They don't make multiple versions of movies just to troll one person and you still think I'm joking. Now if you don't believe me please fuck off and leave me alone already. And stop trying to marry me to Tim he hates me, thanks.
Ole's Waffle Shop in Alameda, CA has run continuously since 1928. There's no way that everything inside that restaurant is original after 93 years. Is it still Ole's Waffle Shop?
@@Sqeedys you do realize that the comment was under a video about the "Ship of Theseus" paradox, right? I just happen to like Ole's Waffle Shop because the people are nice, the OJ is fresh squeezed, and food is good. There's also an extra layer with the restaurant because it could be argued it's the menu and service that make the restaurant, not the building or the furniture.
Mereological Essentialist goes to get a hair cut and is arrest for murder because they are no longer the same person having killed the previous person.
There is no state of constant. Its a concept humans invented because we can remember. But life is like the desert, and the winds of change. It may look similar from a distance, but no grain remains in place forever. This is where the feeling of nostalgia comes from. The yearning for that which once was, but will not and can not ever be again. But do not feel too sad. There is grace and thankfullness to be had, for that which once was. And with change, also arrive the new possibilities for the future. A new day, for a new life, with new experiences. So live your life, with kind rememberance towards that which was worthy, and with a never ending optimism for tomorrow. For you do not know, what marvel's may occur. Have a nice day :)
![What is 'Cosmic Horror'? [Illustrated]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sl5ytsBz2Ao/mqdefault.jpg)
![What is 'Cosmic Horror'? [Illustrated]](/img/tr.png)
![What is 'The Banality of Evil'? [Illustrated]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yYYCRAVHwzo/mqdefault.jpg)
“Perhaps the rot is the memories. The wear and tear of the voyages. The wood touched by Theseus himself,”
thats why it's called "Ship of Theseus" and not "Ship of ...."
Here after Wandavision and I absolutely loved your detailed breakdown on the Ship of Theseus. Many thanks for this.
I’m sharing this video right now with friends to both help them understand and help this channel...I accept cash or credit as payment, Polymath...jk
Hope this channel blows up with the wandavision boost. Really well done.
Who's here after Wandavision?!
Me!
Same
Yeah me too
Me
Me!!
What's interesting in college philosophy courses is that everyone phrases the argument through self identity via the use of objects (ship of Theseus for example).
But almost no one will transfer the thought dilemma to the world, solar system, seasons, weather, universe. Soon as you zoom out from Solipsism you realize that the thought experiment is meant to have us acknowledge that Past, Present and Future are different but not wholly different. They're not there to be quantified (many things aren't), but rather, acknowledged.
Absolutely love this channel, so well done 🙌🏼
I recall a quote from John Green on his piece about Lascaux: "...This is a memory that you cannot return to."
The timber is irrelevant, IMHO. The ship of Theseus ceased to be when Theseus and his crew ceased voyaging on it. Even if you recovered all of the timber and brought back Theseus and his crew to sail the ship, at best you'd have a replica of what once was. A shadow of the acts that became legendary. Those days slipped by, and you can collect all of the artifacts they left behind that you like; they'll never be back.
was just looking at this idea the other day and now here’s a video on it. nice one!
What an incredibly well made and narrated video. Came specifically for this only but you've earned a sub
The realist in me thinks that if everything right down to the nails and wooden pegs that held it together have been replaced then physically it's not the same ship - it's now a replica - however what the ship represents, it's voyages, it's collective memories of its crew, the memories of those who watched it sail away and later return from the voyages - in their minds it's the same ship. Perhaps it's both the same and neither like some mix-up of the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment?
For me the ship is always itself, even if every component has changed for better or worse
How many of you are here after watching WandaVision Season finale?
Meh
I am. The whole time the Visions were talking I kept hearing Sheldon in my head talking about Shroedinger’s cat.
Yeah me
Me
You can give a simplified answer. Let's take for example the football club you love and support. Thrive through the years, it changes coaches, players, stuff, owner, president, even fans. How can it be the same team? It comes down to the final answer, it is what people believe it is. Athenians kept believing even after the ship was completely changed that was the ship of Theseus, your team even though is not the same as it was 10-20-30-50 years ago(where you prob not have even born) is the team people and fans believe it is.
In restoring automobiles all you need is the parts with the serial numbers for the car to be considered the original car
That’s only because someone added a rule for judgement of originally. Nothing more than any other arbitrary condition shown here.
My take on this is pretty simple, "identity" is a cognitive aspect of objects and collectives of objects. Identity is assigned entirely by animals like humans. There is no such thing as objective identity, as identity itself is a philosophical construct
If Ship 1 and ship X are lost, then uncovered millenia in the future, long after Theseus himself has been forgotten, NEITHER is the ship of Theseus, because there is nothing to assign that identity to them anymore. They are both just nameless ships from a bygone era
Look at you adding in another completely valid point to the argument! Very good point indeed.
Nice
Identity is simply what a thing is essentially.
either your explanation is correct, and i'm ok with that, or it simply could be the quantum information that your mambo jambo demonstration could not help to erase
This has always been my solution before even i saw Wandavision because I have pondered on this question long before that. I was kind of surprised why it became such a big philosophical discussion and people weren't aware of it.
Pokemon Anime's worldbuilding are like Ship of Theseus
The wear and tear of that ship are any Superpowered beings that aren't Pokemon themselves as well Ash's character depths and hidden potentials
New to this. Shouldn’t expectation play a role too? One should expect the wood to rot and expect to have all the parts replaced. When you visit museums, do you think those dinosaur bones are all real? It’s the concept that matters.
I think the mereological essentialism makes the most sense.
Many criticise it since everything is changing, so everything ceases to exist in every new moment.
My response is: "So what?" Pointing that out isn't criticizing a mistake. It is making a statement.
I do agree that the Statue of Liberty of today is not the same Statue of Liberty of a century prior. Yes, on a purely "come from" basis, it is the same, but in function? Time has changed it. It is no longer the same. It will never again exist as it did a hundred years ago.
Similarly, I oft try to apply this concept to myself. I am not today the same individual as I was as a child. I've grown, changed. The past is done, dead. I can even believe this applies to every existing moment, depending on the needs of specificity.
the ship of Theseus is an artifact in a museum overtime its planks wood rots and is replaced with new planks, when no original plank remains, is it still the ship of theseus?
secondly if those removed planks are restored and re assembled free of the rot is that.. the ship of theseus
neither is the true ship both are the true ship
well then we are agreed.
Can you explain to me why neither is the true ship both are the true ship?
@@ineffablenefarious2799 Because Paul Bettany said so I think
Just through natural processes all of the atoms in our body change over time, our appearance also changes, yet this is still my body.
Well played, Hobbes.
Great video.
Well a missing part of the equation is the crew.
You can replace the boat but you can't replace the people that made it the Ship of Theseus.
Ships 1 2 & 3 with the same process for the crew are the Ship.
But ships 4 & X are different.
(Example) Ship 4 with a completely new crew can't remember previous memories or adventures of the originals so that would make it it's own entity with new memories and adventure to be had.
Ship X while it was ship 1 at one time if the crew is changed or completely new it will fall in with 4 because boats can't talk and tell stories about
"the good ole days".
Love the quality of the channel
Quite entertaining, but it feels like "big words to state something very very obvious". The issue was even featured in (among many other places) the Only Fools and Horses episode with one character's broom having had the head replaced several times and the handle also replaced several times.
Suppose every cell in your body is renewed every 7 years, are you still the same? What do you think about it?
You can also look at us humans in this way. We all change through our lives. We are not the same person we were as children. When, if ever, do we lose our "identity"? Is our "indentity" in our name? Because that is the one thing that never changes in our lives.
The answer is simple... Everything exists only at one moment in time. Go a millisecond forward or backward, and it changes it to something of a different time.
Another way to look at it, if you take a group of 3 people and remove one, it's no longer a trio, but a duo. Likewise, human cells split and die all the time. The group of cells is what we are, so we constantly change.
Love the channel and videos! Love content like this
awesome, thank you
If it's symbolic - then it's still the ship of theseaus under the assumption we are observing it as a symbol.
If it's a lived experience - then no. It's the ship of theseus when theseus was on the ship.
So it's all a matter of perspective
You know what they say..."You can't go home again"
Original. Repaired. Replica. Home is where the heart is.
So... Blueprints vs feelings..? Is that something? Did I do a philosophy?
What about the concept of an eternal spirit soul in philosophy?
A ship is the same until as long as it keeps the same keel.
I replaced all my skin, Internal organs chemistry changed, maybe every atom since birth. Does my consciousness changed? Does my identity changed as my mother provided me all the matters which I changed while growing and replacing damaged cell?
So for a deeper one let's discuss triggers broom
Here take all my time 👀
Nothing remains the same, everything is evolved. Your baby self is completely different from your adult self, yet that was you.
Interesting 🤔
Scenario example: is the refit USS ENTERPRISE 1701 the same ship as the TOS Enterprise?
Yes, No why?
Who is your favorite polymath?
Personally I feel like the ship of theseus is the ship theseus is using. The moment theseus died it stopped being "the ship of theseus" and started being "the ship theseus last used". In the same vein if theseus used a different ship, even for a single trip, that ship would be "the ship of theseus". Objects aren't just things that exist, they are meant to be interacted with.
How important is one... ore?
They're all the ship of Theseus.
The human body replaces itself every 7-10 years! So are you a different person every 7 years?🤯🤯🤯🤯
Rip sparky!
Gonna get a lot of views thanks to Vision
3:03 by the very nature of creating four separate diagrams.. you've already linguistically separated the ship into four separated essentially different and like entities. I stopped at 7:37 recognizing this as a distraction from larger issues at hand in terms of the Esoteric dilemma represented by the philosophical problem of Theseus and his ship. If you take a religion or philosophy and change it enough times, it is no longer that thing (at all) it becomes a profanity of that thing and not that thing. It is your choice to profane the wisdoms of the past and manufacture a consensus around the thing you are choosing to change. OR YOU CAN CHOOSE to craft something new entirely. This is why Christians tend to be straight arrows for Christianity and chaos magicians are eclectic in their discordant mix and match appeal (don't get me wrong Chaos also has it's own dogma). But I've seen entire mythologies rewritten to suit this Theseus program which isn't important who cares. I don't do you? Well I do, actually. Because if you're going to quote an author you should quote them for what they say not for what they supposedly said that looks better in your point of view. Thoth literally murdered those who wrecked the message. I miss nothing but nice try. If you're trying to get me to go along with your narrative it's not going to work because I'm literally not from here. They don't make multiple versions of movies just to troll one person and you still think I'm joking. Now if you don't believe me please fuck off and leave me alone already. And stop trying to marry me to Tim he hates me, thanks.
Sorry if I offended you that message is not necessarily to you but to whoever.
Ole's Waffle Shop in Alameda, CA has run continuously since 1928. There's no way that everything inside that restaurant is original after 93 years. Is it still Ole's Waffle Shop?
@@Sqeedys you do realize that the comment was under a video about the "Ship of Theseus" paradox, right?
I just happen to like Ole's Waffle Shop because the people are nice, the OJ is fresh squeezed, and food is good. There's also an extra layer with the restaurant because it could be argued it's the menu and service that make the restaurant, not the building or the furniture.
Mereological Essentialist goes to get a hair cut and is arrest for murder because they are no longer the same person having killed the previous person.
Do you have a philosophy degree?
Yep. Still the same ship. That's that sorted 😉 there ya go, Greeks 👍
philosophy sucks! i mean exactly what i wrote.
Every 5-7 years, all the cells in the human body have been replaced with an inferior copy. Are any of us still the same person?
There is no state of constant.
Its a concept humans invented because we can remember.
But life is like the desert, and the winds of change.
It may look similar from a distance, but no grain remains in place forever.
This is where the feeling of nostalgia comes from.
The yearning for that which once was, but will not and can not ever be again.
But do not feel too sad.
There is grace and thankfullness to be had, for that which once was.
And with change, also arrive the new possibilities for the future.
A new day, for a new life, with new experiences.
So live your life, with kind rememberance towards that which was worthy, and with a never ending optimism for tomorrow.
For you do not know, what marvel's may occur.
Have a nice day :)