The Shocking State of A. Lange & Söhne in 2025 | Full Market Analysis
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- The Truth About A. Lange & Söhne's Market Crisis - And Why There's Hope | Independent Market Analysis
Join us for an emotional deep-dive into the current state of one of watchmaking's most prestigious houses, backed by real market data from Watch Charts. As an independent analyst with no sponsorships or paid posts, I bring you an unfiltered look at what's really happening with this legendary brand. From my personal story of first falling in love with the Lange 1, to shocking market trends that reveal an unexpected twist in the brand's trajectory.
We analyze surprising data on steel vs precious metals, and uncover why some of the most complicated timepieces are facing unprecedented challenges. The numbers tell a story that no luxury watch enthusiast can afford to miss - especially the remarkable performance of one particular model that might hold the key to Lange's future. Watch to the end for our analysis of what could bring this horological giant back to its former glory.
#Watches #LuxuryWatches #ALangeSohne #WatchCollecting #Horology #WatchMarket #Odysseus #WatchInvestment #GermanWatches #IndependentAnalysis
The issue is ALS like many brands have repeatedly raised their prices in recent years until they become detached from reality. So comparing current retail price with resale price looks like there is a large drop. In reality, grey market is just reflecting the actual worth of these watches. ALS watches like other brands are overpriced in their current state.
All the luxury brands are kind of trapped because they can't lower their retail price now. It would damage their brand. So what to do, that's the question.
@@mywatchjourney6579if a brand is trapped in their pricing, then they have to offer more value for the dollar.
Sorry i feel this comment is detracted from reality. The price of every has sky rocketed in years, a luxury property that was a couple of million 15 years ago, costs 10’s of millions now. We have people paying almost 100k for cars from brands like Kia and Toyota. Games consoles, mobile phones and other tech have doubled in price. Women hare paying 1000’s of dollars for shoes and 10’s of thousands for handbag.
It’s unfair to criticise one brand or industry for sky rocketing prices when the “cult of materialism” has seen every product, mainstream or luxury, have massive increases in price of the same period.
@@anthonybariek997inflation dude, read about it
@@mywatchjourney6579 if they can give 30% discounts back then,they can do it today, ego is what stopping them from doing so.
As a German-speaking person I applaud your excellent prononciation of Glashütte!
Thank you
are you a native german speaker? Because his pronunciation is the same as most people who mispronounce the word with too much emphasis of the last vowel sound. The last syllable is much more subtle in german
@@ygoeb13As a German myself, I have to agree. Good effort nevertheless.
Thank you for the analysis! Some thoughts of my own:
1) I've heard (never confirmed myself) that Lange has been doing the AP boutique strategy. Requiring purchase of less popular precious metal watches in order to get access to the steel. So, if people are electing that strategy to build a brand relationship then I think it would make sense they'll dump the Saxonias and Lange 1s at losses on the secondary because they never really wanted them in the first place.
2) I've noticed highly complicated watches seem to often have the highest discounts across brands. Would be interesting if that's mathematically true or just my gut playing tricks on me, but chronographs aside almost every highly complicated watch I've seen tends to lose value (of course, most watches lose value so it could just be a normal correlation for the subset of high complication to experience). But because of the price points to get in, the markets are really small to move those watches along if one tires of them. So steep discounting is the only way to unload the watch with any degree of speed.
3) Something I suspect is true for most watch brands is their premium padding on precious metal is mostly just profit, and so secondary collapse on precious metal watches has a lot to do with "you get what you pay for" and there not being enough of the metal to warrant holding the price high. I think it's easiest to see in watches that come with a steel version and a precious version. For example, let's hop over from Lange and look at GO. They have a SeaQ Panorama Date in steel and one in red gold. Same size and all that. On rubber straps of the same design, the steel MSRP is $12,100 and the gold one is $26,100, so a $14,000 difference. I wanted to get the weight on the watch, but you go well past 112 grams at $3,000/ounce and my brain hurts trying to math the 18kt difference but you see where I'm going. Long-story short it's why I love to look for precious metal watches used in general.
Lange 1 is my favorite watch I have, and I'd say it is my favorite "big" brand in the industry. I'm glad I like the stuff people dump in the hope of moving up the list for steel. Though, those watches are cool too!
The Lange 1 is my dream watch too.
@@WatcheswithDennis very good and interesting points.
The CEO Wilhelm Schmidt has in an interview with Ben Clymer denied that the do a bundleing strategy in their boutiques.
But on the other hand there's the story of a long time Lange collector, who has spend millions over the years, who was asked to buy a plain 1815 (if I remember it correctly) when he wanted to buy a titanium Odysseus, because he had no history with the boutique. To be fair after posting this story on a German forum, the CEO reached out to him and apologised and assured him a titanium Odysseus if he was still interested.
Nevertheless I still want a Lange 1 Darth and maybe a Daymatic.
Lange is not meant to be mass market. And used items are suppose to depreciate. That's just the norm.
Very true on used items. But luxury is a bit different. If your products have steep drops in the secondary market (even near mint pieces), it hints at brand perception issues.
I am wondering if the secondary market prices really matter to Lange. They make 5000 watches per year and there will be 5000 buyers who are happy to pay RRP at the boutique.
If they don't have to sell a huge amount of inventory their strategy is very unlikely to change.
The movement of secondary prices is a leading indicator of future brand value perception. If they are perceived as going on a fire sale, it does hurt their luxury status.
The real problem with the watch industry is that companies are over charging for precious metals. Most watch enthusiasts would love Platinum or solid gold as a daily wear but not at these prices.
Your analysis is on the second hand market. At my AL AD, still I have to pay the full price upfront and wait one year to get it regardless the case material. So, making interest on my payment for a year, they are not doing that bad!
Yeah, that is part of the trap. High Horology Swiss brands can't discount their retail prices or risk brand destruction. But when people know they can get it so much cheaper at secondary, demand is effected.
I guess the watch bubble has popped and is going on a downward trend except for watches that are hard and popular to get (Rolex GMT, PP Natalus etc)
I am not a watch connoisseur, however, luxury goods across the board are down significantly. Diamonds, bags, cars, houses, sneakers, watches, jewelry, etcetera.
This is the new world we are living in.
Yes, the recent talk about tariff is introducing even more uncertainty.
@ You’re correct, however, I was speaking since last year. For example, regarding sneakers, the largest brand, Nike has been losing money and those luxury type of sneakers are sitting on store shelves. Many consumers merged to brands like On Clouds, NB, and ASICS. The latter is akin to what you mentioned about watches made from precious metals have drastically reduced compared to those made from steel.
Gold prices are around $2,800.00 USD per oz. 24k. Gold is the most sold precious metal. When those prices go up due to uncertainty, it affects jewelry. A lot of jewelers are going out of business because their sales are down significantly. Natural diamond prices have lost about 35% of their value due to lab diamonds and consumer buyer preferences.
In closing, not being a watch connoisseur such as yourself, I could only surmise that customer buying preferences have changed a lot from purchasing luxury items to what is more affordable according to their personal economic conditions.
Luxury items are down across the board!
Well done mate 🥃
A lot of higher rated brands (JLC) for example, make the same watch in steel and in gold. The only difference between the two models is gold instead of steel yet the price of the gold version can be twice the price. In other words, there is an enormous additional mark-up because it's gold, with no relation between cost of the material and final cost. When you look at equivalents on Lange, Patek, and such like, the mark-up is even greater even taking into account, the higher level of finishing. Given that these watches have astronomical costs at retail, it is clear that only very wealthy people can buy them. It would therefore follow that these highly inflated costs for the first time buyer don't reflect in secondary value and additionally, the pockets of those who shop second hand, are still rare in number for these watches since, even with a big price drop, they can still cost a small fortune.
As an aside, I don't really see why you are bothered about the 2nd hand value of these masterpieces since, surely, the discerning watch buyer is buying to keep, and not part of a their asset portfolio. (That uniquely American idea that watches are appreciating assets over the long term.)
Yes, it's due to elasticity of demand. And no, I'm not bothered by the lower prices. It helps me. But it is a danger sign for the brand that only one watch is above retail.
And on the secondary market for most of these watches you can usually get the gold on a discount where you can't with the steel.
Keep in mind that machining a block of steel does not present the same challenges as doing the same to piece of precious metal. Firstly, I am supposing that there is a casting operation on precious metal cases so as to minimize the amount of machining. Then there is the collection/recycling method for the resulting machined "chips". And, certain precious metals don't like to be machined. So, It's not just about the cost of the raw material -- there are additional processes that figure in.
@@scratchypants1 You're talking about a cost in time/effort which is a small fraction of even one percent of the actual price. It's irrelevant.
Woooooow, you just explained ALL luxury goods! Who would’ve thought, second hand luxury items are worth less?!🤔mind blown 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Odysseus is a Luxury Sport Watch, that is what people are longing for.
In this context the ALS in precious metal looks like a bargain... Until you see the actual price then no, it's just the steel which is even more ridiculously overvalued.
For me, it's the fact that only one piece in their production catalog is doing well that is alarming.
Why does everything have to be “shocking”, “tragic”, “collapsing”?!
I enjoyed the content, but was far from “shocked” by the analysis.
So high complication precious metal watches sell below retail. This is hardly noteworthy, as it is common knowledge and applies to all brands, with only a hand full of models that are the exception to the rule.
Lastly, I strongly hope that Lange doesn’t take the suggested road and starts to prioritize steel, maybe ceramic and so on.
Bitte, nein!!
It's the UA-cam search algorithm...
Thanks. It's youtube, what can you do.
@@kurtklimisch7498 thank you, Kurt. I am well aware of this. The point I was trying to make was more like: I really dislike how cummon these exaggerations are. Also, this false impressions that are made translates into the real world, as viewers may say: “oh yes, this is big news and really bad”, even though this is what it has always been and nobody cared.
@@mywatchjourney6579 I know, but this click baiting is just bad and your channel doesn’t need the bs to be good. On the contrary, it hurts the channel and you may target an audience that you didn’t want to address on the first place.
Great video. Nothing like hearing unbiased opinions. You love the brand and yet were able to analyze the trends with that good feeling but with the objectivity of someone who’s truly trying to look at the future. That’s the recipe for being unbiased.
Thank you, I try to be objective.
Bottom line is that the watch market is fickle and trendy. Today, steel sports watches are hot. Tomorrow, who knows? I like that ALS sticks to its knitting and continues to do what it does best, regardless of current social media driven trends.
Another interesting, well-thought-out video. As a collector of much less expensive watches, it's strictly academic to me, but fascinating. You're exactly right about remembering the first time seeing a Lange. For me, it was the first and only time I held any watch with this kind of price. It was at a watch meet here in Seattle, almost 2 yrs ago. A gentleman had just purchased it and let me hold it for a few minutes. I was stunned. Having collected for 5 yrs at the time, and having owned a number of more mundane pieces, it was a masterpiece. The quality or the workmanship was staggering, and I'm not particularly fond of Lange's designs (a bit too teutonic for me). As you said, I won't ever forget it.
Please keep making these highly informative, thought-provoking videos.
One reason for precious metals second hand watches decline in value in comparison to new, are that the cost of precious metals have increased in the last couple of years, so the producer have to increase the price too.
Great deep dive on another under appreciated (outside of watch geeks) brand.
I still wonder if the overarching trend of steel being favored over precious metals across all luxury watch brands simply comes down to… crime. There are just too many big cities around the world where anyone wearing a nice watch is a target.
I think that is a big part of it.
I do think that people are seeking less flash and more discrete luxury.
This is authentic watch market update, rather ugly dudes tryna get views, pretty straight forward. !
Feels like steel has been more expensive for a long time, you could see this with rolex for at least the last 5-10 years.
Well, they have been holding value better at least.
watching this video made me think about what it would be like to have and wear a stainless steel datograph. man would that be a fun daily wear
I might get a Lange at some point. But it would have to be a big event.
Love Lange and I'll take white gold any day of the week!
Love your market analysis. Stats don’t lie. I like doing comparisons on Chrono to see trends and current market values.
Informative content supported by a well reasoned analysis.
Great video!
You are quite mistaken. You equate brand success with resale value. The brand cares about making great watches for people to enjoy, not to resell. Their retail prices seem excessive which is why you won't fare well reselling in a short period of time. As long as they sell enough to make a profit then Lange is happy enough. Making more steel would be a mistake that harms their core value.
Agreed. Langes key demographic and sales strategy targets the very wealthy for whom dropping 80k on a watch is nothing. Keep in mind that the vast majority of Lange watches are still with their original owners who will likely never sell them but if they do, the drop if value is as irrelevant as the original price was. Which is great news for us "poor" enthusiasts. Given how many new Lange boutiques are popping up around the world, they are still selling a lot watches, which at the end of the day is all that really matters to their shareholders.
Secondary value is an objective measure of collector sentiment and perceived brand value.
A Lange is owned by Richemont group.
@@mywatchjourney6579No it isn't. In fact resale values are superficial and subjective measures. You're just tricked by a few years of hype. In a normal market, most watches lose value. You can buy modern Patek perpetual calendars or chronographs for half their retail price. Does it mean Patek is doing poorly? A real Lange enthusiast expect the same quality of finishing at all price levels and the occasional exceptional complication, which so far the company delivers. Rejoice in the opportunity to own a Lange at discounted prices. The type of customer Lange caters to doesn't have much price sensitivity.
@@vdbdgi would agree with everything you said except brand success having little correlation with secondary market value. Secondary market value is usually the best indicator of demand. If the brand does badly in the secondary market, they will likely do badly at retail level. Maybe Lange is an exception as they sell a lot of their limited edition pieces as a bundle with other less popular, non-limited edition pieces, which means they will do relatively well at retail but will do terribly in the secondary market because collectors who bundle purchased will dump the unwanted piece in the grey market.
What are your thoughts on the Zeitwerk minute repeater. How's the market treating my holy grail
Hmm .. I don't have any data on that reference.
@mywatchjourney6579 cool 👍😎
Your analysis is really precious ! Thank you for sharing these informations with us !
Thanks for the analysis, much appreciated 👍
A. Lange & Sohne was once on my wish list, but not anymore. ALS is known for their hand craftmanship, and exclusivity ( ALS cut production from 5,000 units to 2,500 per year and they assemble each watch twice). It competes with Glashutte Original, FP Journe, and Patek Philippe. Yet is losing to all 3 brands! Journe and Patek for hand craftsmanship, and GEO on price. The Odysseus design is a bit off on the dial, and is so unavailable I rather own Omega or Rolex for a sports steel model.
Yes, I rather point to this in the video. Or at least it's implied. Their market position, especially with recent stories of QA issues, is showing in the drop of secondary prices.
This current trend for a premium on steel, with a discount on gold is something that I personally enjoy. I just bought my solid white gold submariner, only a few months old, still unworn, with a 14k discount off rrp, or a 35% discount. It looks like steel, but wears like gold, and is a lovely stealth wealth piece. Im not sure who is buying rrp gold subs(if anyone) but it is creating a new grey market much lower than rrp. Happy days.
That's actually a great deal. Congrats.
I wonder if the retail prices were changed to match that of the secondary value, would they stop losing value?
It's complex. High Swiss brands are pushing luxury pricing, so lowering retail prices is not an option for them.
dont forget the costs for movement maintenance, it ain't cheap for super complications!
Great point! My personal issue with them is the annoyance of setting the time and date, etc all over again. I have too many watches for that.
I've been a longtime collector and I'm glad I came across this channel. No hype, just facts.
“You never forget your first encounter with Lange” how true!! I remember it vividly at a Lange boutique in Singapore 🇸🇬
Do we know what the real selling price of those high end watches are? We know the list price but with such a drop in aftermarket, I would assume they did not sell anywhere close to list. If I'm correct, what that means is that high network collectors are just not willing to spend that much or the watch makers are just using the high list price to create marketing noise and support for the price of their mid and lower their watches. Maybe it's both.
I've not heard of any significant discounts at the ADs. But given the steep discounts on the secondary market, I'd say some collectors are selling due to economic hardships.
Having seen a couple of videos on how ALS handles warranty issues, there's no way on earth that I'd even consider one of its watches even if I had the money, which I admittedly don't
For now, I absolutely adore my Nomos Club Sport Neomatik, which is on my wrist 24/7 except when I'm in the shower
Yes, I've seen those videos. It's rather shocking for such a high horology brand, especially the turn around times. And I adore my Nomos Metro Power reserve. I might add a GO in the near future. Another very under rated brand.
@@mywatchjourney6579 GO service isn't really much better. I recently served two go watches. One took 6 months and the other took 9.
The content of a precious metal watch doesn't has anything to do with the pricing strategy that a watch company use to market them versus the steel counterpart. In other words take two watches one in steel and another in gold . The watch company will price the gold one well above the cost of this precious metal, perhaps two or the times the sales price of the steel version. This has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the piece. Is just a marketing strategy of watch companies to deliver more profits. If they sell precious metal watches at 25% discount they are not loosing. .They are earning less. The fact that steel versions of the same watch doesn't mean that they have either a higher intrinsic value. It's only the perception of the consumer which is not the intended objective of watch company with their pricing strategies . This is rather an abnormal consumer behaviour of recent times .
Yeah, if you watch my latest Rolex video it's clear that margins on precious metals are what's keeping grey dealers afloat in this tough market.
Hi I love your videos. Can you make a video more focus on business side. I think it’s so interesting how companies that watches sell below list can survive. Is there any other way than give discount?
I might delve into that. Precious metal pieces have higher margins, so the discounts can be larger.
Price and value are very different. I know this and have known this for some time. Some nice pieces but ultimately, I dont need these ID enhancers.
I look at it as self expression. No one really needs a mechanical watch, right?
I also question if Lange is properly positioned. I think the market strategy at Richemont is to keep all their brands in their own "lane", and not respond to changes in tastes by shifting the model and material selection at each brand. The same thing is happening at JLC (mostly more Reversos, and not much else) and really all their brands.
Yeah, I should do a deep dive in JLC. I do feel their prices are getting out of hand.
‘…where do we go from here?…’….Glaschutte Original.
Bingo. They split off from Lange. I might add a GO soon.
@@mywatchjourney6579 bingo - it’s the other way around. Lange was a group of investors that got one of the descendants of A.L. to lend his name. They then produced watches for six years before selling to Richemont. The inheritors of the GUB is GO.
Upvoted.
What exactly is the analysis and what is "shocking"? You can make the same video on PP and it's literally the same?! CLICKBAIT
I already have and yes, it's the same story. But PP is holding on a bit better.
Precious metal watches are struggling to maintain price, not value. Get real.
Well, a 40% drop is hard to see.
ALS for the last few years has been delivering awful customer service, and the repair and service of watches has been marred by mistakes. AVOID.
Yes, this is a fatal mistake. You have to deliver the 'luxury experience' or lose your status.
Sorry, but stainless steel has always trumped precious metal - everywhere. Royal Oaks, Nautilus, Submariner, etc., etc., etc. It's down to robustness, value, longevity, daily wearability, and simple supply and demand. Manufacturers love selling over-priced gold models, but they are harder to sell, and easier to get. This is nothing to do with ALS, or the Odysious, and it's certainly nothing new.
That's true. I'm seeing this in the data for all the top Swiss brands. But it wasn't always true.
@@mywatchjourney6579 Yes it was always true. Gold versions of steel watches have always been overpriced, and more readily available. The retail price difference between a gold Submariner and a steel Submariner is a WAY more than is justified by the precious metal content. It has always been thus.