FAULT FINDING - RING CIRCUITS
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- How do we go about fault finding on a socket ring circuit, or any ring circuit for that matter?
What needs to be considered and how can we quickly and easily find those sometimes elusive problem faults?
In this video we look first at what to expect from the standard tests on a good circuit and then we introduce a circuit with a fault in an unknown location and show you how to use your testing skills to find each of the faults.
We consider the three common types of fault finding which will enhance your analytical skills and professional capabilities.
This video is No.101 on our UA-cam channel where we have videos on a wide range of electrical topics.
To see a full list of all our LearnElectrics videos, click on the link below.
/ @learnelectrics4402
You can also view all our videos by typing LearnElectrics all one word into the UA-cam search bar.
Always work safely, electricity can be dangerous. If you are unsure, stop and seek advice.
This video is provided for guidance only. Every electrical situation is different, please check and ensure that you are applying this learning information to your own individual circumstances correctly and safely. If in doubt, stop and seek competent advice.
This video is a godsend. Never seen this subject explained so simply and graphically
Wow, that is superb feedback and very much appreciated. Thank you.
I always use this method but the problem is in an existing installation, you have no idea how the circuit was wired in the first place. On a fault like this, it is imperative that you learn how the ring final was wired in the first place. I tend to split the ring, energise side A or B and note down which sockets are live by using a decent socket tester. This will give you an indication of how it was wired in the first place. In much older houses, I have found sockets wired in the most unusual way which has caused many a headache when fault finding. 😓
And don't get me started on spurs....they can add a touch of confusion to the mix.
Absolutely right Mike. Fault finding is a deep subject. Many of us could talk about it for a week without repeating ourselves. Cheers. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 EARTH LOOP IMPEDENCE TEST NEXT PLEASE ON RING CIRCUIT THANKS.
Thank you Oliver. We will be doing and extended loop impedance video soon, faults etc. Meanwhile, have you seen these two videos. Thanks for the support. Dave.
Ring Circuit Testing
ua-cam.com/video/-PAruseUf04/v-deo.html
Ze and Zs
ua-cam.com/video/eHT_m2mRs7o/v-deo.html
Brilliant video because there is Not enough info regarding fault finding out there. Which is without a doubt the hardest part of the job. Most content tends to be about live, dead testing to meet regs and paperwork.
Thanks Kojak. Your comments are noted. I will do more on fault finding. Hang in there and keep watching. Thanks again. Dave.
Cant believe the amount of people who are commenting that they have never been taught fault finding. I remember my instructor telling us about these methods when I was at college 20 years ago! Seems this is no longer being taught.
I quite enjoy the process of fault finding. I find the hardest faults on ring circuits are when the N-N and L-L continuity tests show vastly different results. I had one recently where the continuity on the line conductor was nearly twice that of the neutral conductor. Was a poor connection in a socket, but took a while to pin down.
Also had one where there was no continuity on any conductor. Turned out to be a fused connection unit incorrectly wired by a DIYer. When the switch was on the circuit was a ring, when it was off it was two radials!!
Great channel. Thanks for making these videos.
Rich
Thanks Richard. I loved fault finding. We had fault finding and testing every afternoon at college. I've always continued that with my students when I was teaching. So very important. And an FCU as a ring/radial switch. Interesting, I will try and figure that one out this evening - just for fun. Thanks for your support. Dave.
Very informative. But you know yourself that you will come across rings within rings and spurred sockets as the original circuit has been messed about with. Sometimes it’s too far gone to make an economical repair so a partial rewire may be needed, at this point I tend to install radial circuits. Thank you for taking the time to make I know a lot of work goes into these tutorials.
Yes you are right Mark. When Mr DIY has finished - who knows. And yes, it may be easier to start again in places or some other solution. Thanks for the comments, it all helps other viewers and thanks for your support. Dave.
Superb tutorial as always. I’d like to add to the experience forum what I found from testing at front of sockets. I have recently seen two ‘no cpc’ readings from an integrated plug in tester. Once the circuit was de energised and the actual conductors tested, there was no problem. The fault had been in the accessory itself, where the material of the earth pin receptacle had insufficient stiffness to maintain contact with the earth pin of the plug. Always expect the unexpected! And don’t buy cheap accessories.
Absolutely spot on Mike. That's one reason I always suggest testing the actual sockets in situ before turning the power off. The other good one is poor riveting on the earth strip inside the socket. Some cheaper accessories are hand assembled using a fly press and the forming pressure can vary depending on the size of the operator. Great comment, Thanks. Dave.
Great video Dave, the way you explain it just works for me, very clear instruction, brilliant. My favourite go to you tuber 👍
That's nice of you to say and really appreciated. Dave.
Very helpful ! Nice systematisation , crystal ! thank you very much ! God bless you !
Glad it was helpful and thanks for watching. Dave.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom Dave. Have you ever tried a wander lead method, to find a break in a ring. Disconnect both broken eg… CPC’s, connect a wander lead to one cpc leg and walk around testing for continuity at each socket until you find the last good socket and the first faulty socket?
Great video, thanks for sharing 👍
Yes, that works. In fact I just posted that exact method to a subscriber last night. There are dozens of ways of fault finding as you know. The problem is which one to start with so I chose the method that works for college assessments. I will be doing more on fault finding soon but try and keep the videos to about 15 minutes each.
Thanks so much for your contribution, really appreciated and keep them coming. Dave
I'm watching your videos. These are very informative and helpful. Thanks
Thanks for the feedback, hopefully they are useful and thanks for watching. Dave.
Tanx for the upload love fault finding videos👍
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it and lots more on fault finding to come. Dave.
Brill video, thanks. Just in time for my fault finding exam tomorrow!
Good luck Joel. Lots more videos to come. Dave.
Absolutely brilliant video
Thank you so much. Great feedback, appreciated. Dave.
Always enjoyed and learn a lot thanks Dave
Glad you enjoyed it Saleem and thanks for your support. Dave.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and skills
My pleasure and thanks for watching. Dave.
Thanks for making these videos.
Glad you like them, thanks for watching. Lots more to come.
Love these vids. Thanks. Cam you do something for insulation testing/fault finding explaining Live and neutral together and earth IR testing
Thanks Alan, we will be putting a video together very soon about Insulation testing, faults, tips and tricks for installed vulnerable equipment etc. Its on the list.
Meanwhile, have a look at this video about cable testing, it includes IR tests. Dave
ua-cam.com/video/tT3eGK1b0Yk/v-deo.html
Excellent video, Subscribed! Greetings from Italy 👍🇮🇹
Thank you Esa and our very best wishes to you. Thanks for watching. Dave.
HI Dave this is excellent video do more video please thank you
Absolutely more videos, yes we will. More on fault finding very soon. Dave.
Thanks Dave great vid
Thanks for watching Cliff, appreciated. Dave.
Brilliant Video
Thank you, great feedback and thanks for watching.
Another vreat videos.. Thank you so much sir...
My pleasure, glad you found it useful. Dave.
Thank you Dave
Thank you Mahesh, much appreciated. Dave.
Nice one!
Thanks Richard, appreciated.
Bloody briliant👍👍
Thank you, appreciated.
excellent as usual
Thanks Jimmy, appreciated.
Great video
Thanks Allah. Glad you enjoyed it, lots more to come. Dave.
brilliant!
Thank you. appreciated.
Great video👍🏻
Thank you, appreciated.
Great video that 👍
Thanks for the positive comment Lee, appreciated.
Thank you Dave, great explanation. Just wanted to share a fault I had on a ring - no CPC continuity. Used the R2 / Long lead method and traced it back to the MET at the CU. One conductor had excess CPC sleeving so failed to make good contact under the terminal. Shortened the sleeve, re-terminated both CPCs, used torque screwdriver , and tested fine. Could you please add “ maximum demand and diversity” to your future list of videos?
Mahesh, we have that video ...
DIVERSITY and MAXIMUM DEMAND, click on the link below
ua-cam.com/video/TV2IZtmydm4/v-deo.html
If you go on the website, you can search for any video. Just enter a search word and a link to the relevant video will come up. There are well over 100 videos on there.
Thanks for watching, Dave.
Nice one dave a very clear and easy to understand video 👍👍 if the cable with the nail in was hard to replace or more hassle to try and rectify, is it possible that the ring can be spit into 2 radials on 2 16amp MCBs? Would this be an acceptable way to get around this situation .cheers dave 👍
Absolutely it will. You could make it two 20A MCBs as 2.5mm cable will take it easily.
Good solution. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 nice one cheers dave 🙌🏻🙌🏻
Thank you sir
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you found it helpful. Dave.
I'd love a video on fault finding rings but in the ring Introduce some weird junction boxes and how we can figure out what's going on in our heads. Thanks a lot great vid
Great suggestion Caleb. I've added it to the list. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 thanks Dave. I had a fault finding job the other week and there was jbs everywhere. Was difficult but will be interesting to see the proper procedure
Very Helpful as always! Any plans to do fire alarm install, not much on YT that l could find?
Thanks for watching. Fire Alarms, not planned but it is on the list now, so watch this space.
Dave is the best electrician ever
Thanks for the great feedback. I just want to make you guys better than me. Dave.
I don't need any institution to learn electric. Thank you so much for your great work
Brilliant, thanks for watching.
Excellent informative video Dave, again with superb graphics--as someone has commented, a video on car chargers would be very interesting, for us “older/retired folk”-many thanks
Noted David. Thanks for watching, your support appreciated. Dave.
This insulation test is brilliant if you know how the circuit is wired from point to point. People don’t always wire to first and last socket with the supply legs and interconnections go random ways also and sometimes you’ve got singles to deal with so hard to find what neutral or earth goes with the live
So glad it helped. Thanks for watching, appreciated. Dave.
I take out both legs from the cu and energise the ends R1 R2 with a 12v motorcycle battery walk around with a break out box and megger voltage proving device plugged into that. This way you can find break in ring circuits fairly quick. If it all reads ok. I test from R1 to N. 👍. Finally an Ir test on the cables after I've rectified the fault/s.
Whatever works for you Ray. Thanks for watching and thanks for the support. Dave.
Hi dave, have a question regarding open ring finals, open cps for example.
I've been watching a few videos online on the best ways to find open circuit's on rings and I've seen two good ways that would work well if you knew how the circuit was wired.
My question is, if I was to disconnect the ring from the CU, and join cpc to line on one leg and cpc to line on the other leg, would I be able to work my way round the circuit until I came to a socket with no continuity and narrow it down to that particular point, excluding joint boxes, I'm thinking hypothetically.
Not quite as simple as that. Join just one end L & E together and then long lead test from one of the remaining open ends at each socket until you get a high reading where the break is.
Good question, I might do a video on this. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 I will await that video Dave. I only do commercial really and was sent fault finding in a house with an open ring, it proved more challenging than I initially expected.
Thank you for your response,
Bob.
Fantastic video.
I'm buying my very first multimeter very soon and I'll be doing my own tests in my home.
Can you post a video where you show how to do an insulation resistance test when it is impossible to disconnect appliances. I.e light chandeliers etc.
Mo. I hope you are NOT buying a multimeter. That will not do the tests you need for electrics. You need a Multi Function Tester or MFT.
Take a look at our video about MFT’s
ua-cam.com/video/6Q4CM_6M4wo/v-deo.html
We are putting a video together about IR tests on appliances and lighting that are difficult to remove. Keep watching.
Good luck. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 sorry my bad. I meant to say multi functional tester.
It was 5am in the morning when I typed that. I was still half asleep.
No problem Mo. I'm just trying to look out for you. Is there really a 5am in the day. I know about 5pm going home time. Stay lucky my friend and keep watching. Dave.
Thanks again for the video. I have just tested a ring circuit in my own house (at a socket rather than at the cu) and found an open circuit on the cpc (L and N are fine). I have no idea how the circuit is run and don't fancy lifting boards all over the place and crawling about in the loft (I'm too old for that) in the hope that I find something obvious. Any tips on tracing how the ring is run so that I can use your "split the ring" method?
Maybe try looking in the other sockets on the ring, may be a disconnected CPC somewhere, do it with the power off of course, failing that you may have a damaged CPC somewhere.
@@CommonInvesting Thanks David - I have checked behind each socket and all cpcs are intact.
You may have to use a wander lead connected to the just one cpc wire, leave the other in free air at the CU and then check for continuity between the other end of the wander lead and the earth pin at each socket. Start nearest to the CU ( a guess sometimes) and try to follow the cable route. When you get a good low ohms reading at one socket and a fail high ohms at the next, you know the fault is between the two, but this still assumes you know how the circuit is run. Sometimes just old fashioned detective work is the only answer. I wish you good luck. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 Thanks for taking the time to reply. I made a wander lead from a reel of telephone wire and modified the ends with crocodile clips that works well so I'll try that.
@@learnelectrics4402 Can't thank you enough for your help. I'm not qualified but have loads of theory. I managed to trace the fault in the cpc - it was at the cu with an over tightened terminal that had broken one of the conductors. I'm chuffed to bits.
Excellent video as always! Just watched a video and the guy mentioned you can have a type ac breaker with a type c car charger, or something!! Please do a video on requirements for wiring chargers and what would not work etc, would be very very valuable, cheers.
Probably means a type AC RCD. Yes, noted and now on the list. Thanks. Dave.
Also for practical purposes how do we ascertain where the middle of the ring is in order to do this testing?
If you need the middle of the ring, best to disconnect at the CU and low ohms test at each point. The highest will be the middle. A lot depends on the accuracy and resolution of your meter. Dave.
always great videos.....
Glad you like them, lots more to come. Thanks for the support. Dave.
What would be a decent socket tester?
Most electrical wholesalers will sell one or more brands. You want one that has the LED decoding on the front (easier than remembering where the box is) AND one that makes a noise when it finds electric. Great for finding out if you have the right circuit breaker if the CU is in a different room.
Based on your drawing, need two mcb to handle the ring circuit
We only use one MCB per circuit. Thanks for watching.
"If the circuit is still live, YOU will be the first to find out" : )
Absolutely John. Glad you like it. Dave.
@@learnelectrics4402 Thanks for posting these vids - they help me appreciate what I can do and when I need to call a professional. 👍
just a little tip , i ALWAYS visually check first you will be amazed how many faults you can find simply by looking broken sockets signs of oevr heating poor wired plugs wet sockets even
Absolutely, that's we say to check every socket before even turning the power off and dismantling things. Great comments. Thanks for your support, appreciated. Dave.
If you've already ascertained that N lacks continuity why do we test L-E at each point? And why then do we test N twice, can't we just test L-N at each point since we already know L has good continuity?
The videos try to explain in an easy to understand manner, a lot of viewers are new to the game and need that extra support. Dave.
Seems ring mains just make life more difficult for sparks & homeowners, not to mention potentially dangerous when a wire is damaged and you have two 26A radials on a 32A breaker. Why on earth are we still using them, rather than just using radials?
A lot of us ask that question. Many sparkies are now installing radials only but there will always be those that believe that a socket circuit MUST be a ring circuit. Why?
Thanks for watching, great comment. Dave.
No longer live /it's the line nowadays
Absolutely, but still referred to as Live in some parts of the regs. It will take many generations to settle on a single word. meanwhile I try and mix and match as so many people use a mixture of the three terms. Thanks for watching. Dave