Pro Cycling also doesn’t do itself any favours either when it actively tries to make riders as boring as possible (even when they do have a personality). Compare Remco’s public personality in 2019 on social media to 2022 and it’s night and day
Comes back to this underlying insecurity in the sport IMO. Everyone is afraid of pissing off the wrong person (sponsor, team owner, governing body) so the content turns into weak tea. Ps. Thanks for being the change 🙏🏼
The NBA thrives off colorful personalities. It allows them to occupy the media landscape even when there aren't any games. Professional cycling's reliance on team sponsorships makes the whole environment feel more like a house of cards (ie: Cavendish and BnB Hotels fiasco)
Cycling fans are largely middle class. They/we are not the same people as those who watch football/soccer hence why we love all the boring stuff, don’t argue a point, don’t create debate, love all the engineering tech…
Thanks for the shout-out guys! We're super proud of the Masterclass, and totally agree that people will still have questions - it's a difficult and complicated sport after all. That's why I host livestreams with members to have that one-on-one experience of traditional coaching. Love the Podcast, keep up the great work 🤘
I bought into the NorCal cycling training, honestly it’s a fair middle ground. He gives you a training syllabus for various parts of your race year and he has tons of videos explaining all parts of racing and equipment etc. I will say he will also answer your questions and he also does zoom meetings. This was also pitched as some people can’t afford and don’t want to pay for a full time coach. I’m honestly happy with it so far. Definitely great for off season riding.
Thanks for the love guys! I am the one who is hosting NorCal Cycling 2. Its been a blast and I will definitely continue making vlogs into the race season. The channel did start in conjunction with the course but has branched into its own avenue because of the feedback it has received. So, seriously thank you guys for shining good light on what we are doing over here in NorCal!
👏 You two are bringing fresh perspectives into the competitive cycling space, and it’s making me think more critically about the topics. Seriously: Thank you.
I agree that we've had a plethora of old bike vs new bike pieces lately, but I actually enjoy them. Such videos have become popular, and relevant, because new high-end bike prices are through the roof and people who are moderately serious riders are turning toward older high-end bikes as an alternative. As a fan of older, classic bikes, I feel vindicated in a way when an "old" bike pretty much matches a cutting edge "new" bike. I don't mind when a certain level of subjectivity appears and a lack of variables control creeps in. The assertion that a frame is a bike is absurd. Clearly, a frame is not a bike. Nobody ever won a race on a frame. A bike is a system made of many parts and components, but even a bike can't win a race or go fast. The key component in the system that goes down the road is the rider, who is him or herself a system.
These Chris & Jesse videos continue to be the best cycling content on UA-cam. Chris’s comparison of a modern Ti frame bike and the Factor, using the same wheels/tires on both bikes and the same fit adjustment on both bikes is the only valid bike comparison that I’ve seen.
The GCN old vs new got me when Simon said the position on his new bike was lower, longer and hence more aero than his old bike. I race a 2010 frame (Fuji SL which was a very early aero bike), with mechanical 10 speed drivetrain (using current low friction thinking), newer wheels with modern tyres and tubes (the wheels are not that new to be tubeless) with modern tyre pressures and 36cm bars. Still lose a few watts with exposed cables and round handlebars, but I can be competitive when fit.
Exposed cables aren't costing you watts, remember once a human body gets on a bike, the whole aero profile is disrupted to begin with, and it comes down to position most of the time. Internal cable routing is an esthetic fad mostly, a royal pain, and leads to a weaker frame.
@@danielhall3895 It is a pain for mechanical gearing and rim brake bikes because the cabling bends cause issues with shifting accuracy and brake sponginess, but how does it make a frame weaker though?
@@82vitt A completely internally routed bike puts holes in a lot of places that can increase fatigue or increase the chances of fractures on modern, carbon frames. Especially where you really don't want them, like the fork blades, or any of the stays on a bike. Drilling cable routing holes isn't a problem on a metal frame, but on a carbon, these add to more places where stress fractures can start popping up, and less visibly earlier on top of that. You'd be surprised how many people think a small fracture in a carbon seatpost isn't a big structural deal, because they'll do any sort of mental gymnastic to not stay off the bike and have to open up their wallet, as well as wait to fix the problem before a catastophic failure. They'd be even less concerned with the beginning of a small fracture in a stay or a fork. Everything internally routed is putting aesthetics over real functionality and durability.
@@danielhall3895 I am on my sixth fully internally routed bike frame set - I purchased my first in 2015. They come with issues, but cracking due to high stresses around the cable/hose holes don't seem to be an issue. Those areas are additionally reinforced with more material to resist those stresses. I think people are making too much of it. Mine aren't the lightest out there though, so maybe if I was looking at something unusually lightweight made by a boutique brand, I would be more suspicious. If the elite can ride 30k km a year on those things, so can I. Obviously, defects can and do happen (lots due to user abuse, lack of care or simply incompetence), but that's the nature of mass produced goods that once in a while something will go wrong.
@@82vitt You have a point, but an elite rider does get a new frame handed to him or her, everytime there's even a small hint of a problem. I'm not trying to be an alarmest for unfounded reasons, but google some of the problems that have accompanied a lot of the newer internally routed frames from the large brands over the past three years.
Totally agree with Mr.Miller's viewpoint. Most customers buying road bikes aren't racing. Road bikes frames are fundamentally quite boring (compared to the variables in MTB), the manufacturers ran out of being able to market their frames on weight/ stiffness as most are roughly the same - so the new marketing is how 'fast' it is. But if the rider is not racing then I'd argue that being the fastest by a few seconds on your ride is way down the list of sensible priorities. Just ride the bike that feels the nicest, is the most fun, and is the least of a P.I.T.A. to live with and maintain. A simple frame of the style from a decade ago with good wheels and tyres is enough for most riders, some just need to drop the ego a bit and stop trying to emulate the pro's whose needs and performance are in a different league anyway. Most ex-Pro's I've chatted to aren't even that bothered about their bikes, seeing it as just a tool for a job that gets changed every season, zero emotion.
@Jessie I was one of those people "not knowing what you were asking for" - but after this explanation: i set it straight (so theoretically 2° in and 2° out movement)
On the fantasy league idea: the Sporza Wielermanager (cycling manager) in Belgium is exactly that and is quite popular! You built your team within a budget, with a few transfers and you select the riders for each race. I think this year the 'seasons' and thus different competitions are the classics season, Giro and Tour.
Done bike fits of all types with my shop and all we were trying to get to was to NOT be banging up against the float limits as the leg cycled through its crank rotation. Maybe 5 % of clients will have a beautiful straight up-ad-down (as viewed from front), the other bunch have all manner of assymetrys (sp) that need rotational allowance(float). We set the cleats to hit that middle ground so that the knees don't have to take the stress. Between a computrainer spin scan and shooting some video with a laser level, this can get sorted quite fast. Cheers, great job, really like this format.
With Nor Cal’s plan, it covers a lot of the soft skills of racing that a trainer road wouldn’t typically cover, which makes it good for new racers, who want more than fitness in my opinion
Entry level shoe user here. I use a fizik and it was the one that got rid of the hotspots I suffered with the shimano. It was all about the forefoot shape for me and how the straps/boa secured my foot.
I think whole whole bike comparison of today vs 10 or 15 years ago is legit. Many of the frame changes we've had were driven by the desire for deeper section carbon wheels. Disc brakes, room for bigger tires etc. were the result of wheel changes. I simply can't put the wheels from my new bike on my 10 year old bike. (I love riding both of them, btw)
I agree that it is actually the wheels that have improved dramatically in the last 10 years. It would be interesting to do a comparison of a 2013 frame with carbon wheels v a 2023 bike
To me the comparison is to the full old bike, not just the frame. Yes, if I put all the tech on my old bike, it is better - I upgraded my old Orbea from 2006 to new 105. It is way better now, but I think you need to think of everything that goes in to it. As a non-pro, the biggest differences are tire width and disc brakes. I really prefer riding with discs compared to the rim brakes, and I love my 28mm tires (the Orbea is limited to 25mm). Objectively, the orbea is not much slower. However, I definitely prefer riding my newer bike. I could say a lot more about comfort, relative cost, etc., but at the end of the day I ride to enjoy the experience. I enjoy rides on the orbea, but I enjoy the newer bike more. As an aside, I did have an aluminum 2016 Ridley with 105 - when I picked a bike to sell to upgrade to my current bike, I ditched the Ridley. I like the orbea more than that one.
Also this one for you Chris. I've watched your vids for years and over that time it is very evident you have very good adaptability. You've said previously you never have issues with saddles, you put one on, you ride, it works. I feel it's the same with shoes, your body just adapts. You could have an average bit fit and your body makes it work. Those people who come into the bike shop and hate on a particular shoe are not adaptable. There are people out there (me included) who constantly battle bike fit and equipment problems which gets in the way of just riding and therefor consistent training without injury. So when you say 'shoes don't matter', 'saddle doesn't matter' it's from a slightly rose coloured glasses view. Not a negative, just saying equipment really does matter for a lot of people.
Interesting comment. Are you saying some people are just naturally more adaptable? I tried on over 10 pairs of shoes and only one did I put on and say YES, this is comfortable. Could I have ridden others? Maybe. But am I going to spend a lot of money on a maybe? No. So I got the one that was already comfortable from just putting it on. And it turns out it is a great shoe. And I am already trying to find it online again (it seems to not be continued anymore) to have it when the current pair becomes too old.
Yes, I agree. It always baffled me how some people get a bike from a shop with a random pair of shoes and cleats and can just ride with no issues. It took me 3 different fitters, trying different shoes, insoles and saddles, plus 155mm cranks to ride a bike with no niggles. Setting a bike up cost me more than the bike itself. I ride for hours with no issues now, but I envy those who can ride anything. I recently bought a cheap town bike just for shopping trips and the 170 cranks were making my knees iffy in less than 1h. I found a shorter crankset, however, it cost me half of what I paid for the bike itself!
@@messi9991 Yep, there is a lot of literature out there about some high performance athletes having high adaptability as one of their traits for success in addition to high vo2 max, mindset etc. There are good examples of pro riders with horrendous riding positions and styles yet somehow still manage to put out huge power. Of course adaptability is probably linked to age, so bad form does catch up to older riders.
I'm on the same boat as you re: cleat float. My heels come all the way in to the cranks and I run 0° float. If your foot doesn't use the float I don't see a point in having it. I also like the feeling of being in locked in for sprints where my body is dependent on the plastic cleat holding my weight. Even if the float won't cause it to slip out I feel more secure without it and the mental aspect is almost more important.
On the shoe subject... I went on a deep dive looking at dozens of shoes, looking at laces, boas... Different brands... And then my wife bought me specialized shoes purely because I have a specialized bike and her entire logic was it'd be nice if my shoes matched the brand and I've found i actually really like the shoes.
As the road season continues its starts I find myself already missing the CX races which really wowed me this year for the first time. Given a choice now between watching either CX currently wins.
@@ChrisMillerCycling i really do, especially the fact that the two of you have such good synergy. And i really appreciate the way you guys present the topics (you dont try to sell stuff or please your sponsors). i really hope your podcast goes through the roof! thanks again
I use Kneesavers Pedal Extenders to be able to ride with toe-out condition. Use the yellow Shimano cleats with 6 degree float. Don't ignore cycling related knee pain, get a bike fitter to help if needed. Bike fitter James Thomas ranted about zero float on the Cade Media channel recently.
I like the GCN comparison videos. I believe that this old vs new was comparing state of the art bikes in period correct configuration. Loved the legendary TT bikes tests. If I can’t watch a race I like to see the Chris Horner analysis of the races.
Great show guys. Thank you as always. On the shoe topic. For 'regular' shoes, day-to-day I'm never too picky and find that most fit fine - find the right size and off we go. For cycling shoes, my experience has been completely different. I now only look for brands that offer 'wide' shoe options, like Bont or Sidi, and even then find my feet are happy when I don't tighten them down too much. Most other shoes have been a nightmare of pain after 30 mins. Just too narrow. Fizik and Giro point in case - love their styling and quality, but sadly have been impossible to use. When I hear you Chris talk about all your shoes and seeing finding no difference, I'm jealous! Yes, I guess they have all been quality shoes, but for everyone with 'normal' feet who have more to choose from, I suppose it all comes down to personal preference for the styling?! For the old-vs-new bike, I don't think there's that much in it, so long as we are comparing quality frames. In my experience tires and tubes have made an incredible difference in ride quality and speed. Amazingly so. And then wheels. It's all in the wheels/tires . . .
The 2013 comparison is relevant to me. I have a 2013 Giant TCR SL0 running Light Bicycle 46mm carbon clinchers, 7.2 kg with pedals. I’m after a performance improvement and not just a nice looking current bike. 10 years on i don’t want to replace it with a heavier bike. $8-12k AUD will get me a heavier bike an highly questionable whether it will be more aero. For $13-15k would get a Canyon Ultimate or new TCR Advanced SL only a few hundred grams lighter and pretty marginal area gains ($18-20k for other brands) - a lot of money for pretty minimal gain.
One of the best things I did for my stroke was to work from yellow, to blue, then finally red for 9100 pedals. For me personally it feels much better, and this is with self-setup position. Not everyone needs float I don't think, but it's kind of just the thing to do?
Working on weak glutes ( clam shells / resistance banded monster walks) made a huge difference to how my feet tracked. I found that my cleats migrated from a heels in set up to a more centralised float. My knees tracked better too .
I recently got bonts and I still can’t explain how they feel when I’m asked if I like them. I agree they initially seem like torture traps, they are SO stiff it almost needs a new word to describe it. However, when I’m riding, I completely forget about my feet and that’s the first time that’s ever happened. So they’re simultaneously frightening stiff & the most comfortable shoe I’ve ever had.
Unless you are putting 1500w into a sprint when stiffness counts, other than that, it is comfort all the way....if you find Bont to be super comfy then you've struck gold, stay with it and be grateful you found something so comfy.
"The bikes got four times as expensive, but not four times faster" - I agree wholeheartedly with that, and you can go back to the late 80s and early 90s to see that is the case. One could by a top-of-the-line fully assembled road bike, made of high quality steel or aluminum, for around $2000. Even the Kestrel 4000, the first carbon fiber bike ever released (1987), could be had for slightly less than $2000. Now a top level set of wheels will cost that much. The problem with new top end bikes is that, as with the most expensive phones, computers, cars, etc., they offer increasingly diminished returns - much lower bang per buck. Yes, the cost of living was much less than it is today, but certainly not by 4 to 7 times.
Big topic shoes. The fits vary enormously. As somebody with double wide feet I can totally forget trying Sidi, Shimano and others they are literally too narrow and will torture me - on the opposite end of the scale are Bont shoes which have a philosophy of giving more space in the toe box than most brands and crucially they come in multiple width fittings. Bont for the win from my side.
I used the blue Shimano cleats because they came with my shoes. My heels knock on the chain stays and crank sometimes which is annoying. So I tried red cleats (zero float) last week and will never use anything else now. All shoes changed to red cleats this week.
Coincidentally last weekend I reset the cleats on all three pairs of my shoes to remove the heal-in float so I wouldn't touch the cranks. It was just a couple of degrees but it felt great straight away. It sort of gave me something push against and felt less floaty (of course).
My cleats are currently set up slightly heal-in. You're saying you're now set up with the cleats neutral, and it feels good? Interesting. I might try that.
Another thing I think is fan content creation especially on UA-cam. You can create reels on insta or TikTok’s but it’s hard to make pro cycling content on UA-cam with actual footage of the race with getting copyrighted.
My feet goes inward towards the frame while pedalling (especially the right foot). If i reduce the float I start to get knee pain. The question is weather the inward or outward movement of leg is natural or cause by an underlying health condition. I my case its the latter. So the float helps me alot in injury prevention.
The corporate advertising identities of pro cycling teams makes them alienating and boring - if they were national teams or teams with identities beyond random logos people would care.
They also need to make the riders more recognizable during broadcast...I can't distinguish the riders unless there is a close-up and you see his face or the commentator mentions who that is...we are basically looking into a big bunch of people and waiting for one of them to come forward and then you can take a wild guess who it is. Each rider inside the team needs to wear something different, maybe color of his helmet (like the yellow and red cameras on top of F1 cars), and a huge number on his back (like in all other team sports) that is visible from those heli shots. That is when people will starting rooting and getting into discussions about one vs. other rider. Currently I'm rooting for Girmay...because he winning now and then...and is the only that I can recognize in the bunch.
Agree. Cycling needs to get it's act together and create franchises. Buying a World Tour team licence should mean buying the rights to a recognised franchise or creating a permanent franchise. And you slap the new sponsor name on the front It's so depressing trying to explain to my dad that Lotto Soudal from last year is not Soudal Quickstep this year. Or Alpecin Deceuninck is also not Quickstep
Re the cleat float discussion, check out Cam Nicholl’s RCA UA-cam channel, and have a look at the videos from Neill Stanbury, who’s not only a physio but a world class bike fitter.
My take on training courses in general is that they can be great for a certain kind of person, but it highly depends on the content of the specific course as well as the values of the person buying it. The person who it can work for is the person who wants more agency and knowledge of their own training, but doesn't have the time to do all the research and compilation of sources on their own. This also relies on the teacher and the course itself being solid and containing enough info to provide a solid base for that person. If there's not enough or it's bad info, of course the whole thing is bunk. But as long as it's a good solid base to build on, it can be a very efficient (time wise) way to build knowledge in a structured manor, and provide jumping-off points to do more research on their own, whether that is via asking more questions to the teacher or resesarching on their own.
I did enjoy the Venga podcast due to Mitch Docker's color commentary. Also, hearing Mitch and Matthew Keenan arguing with each other was refreshing. I wish that podcast was still around. Love your guy's hot takes, and keep up the solid content.
A) peak torque is fantastic B) they did a lot of ebay bike challenges even back whenever C) the uci keeping bikes to a standard is a big part of things. Even triathlon requires bike shaped bikes, as opposed to recumbent or other spaceships
I like the float. I set my speedplay up so the limiter keeps my heel from rubbing the crank with a 2-3mm margin extra. The outer limit I set to allow foot to be where I generally pedal plus a bit. Not excessive so I can unclip without excessive ankle turn out. During normal riding I don’t hit against either limit, except maybe when I get tired and sloppy I’ll feel I’m touching the limits on the heel inside. I ride within the float. I also use custom spindle length 59mm, but the cleat isn’t at its extreme inward. Also run cleats all the way back as far as they’ll go. If I could go more I would, and when I go to the latest pedals I might try the mid foot adapters.
Chris you hit the nail on the head re4 x more expensive. I think most consumers feels they are not getting good value. New bikes are faster, but incrementally so where as the price has moved transformationally. This plays to the narrative we all love of getting ripped off by evil large corporations and their snake oil marketing departments 😂
LOL, I am even crazier than you both with cleats. If your heels come in (decreasing stance) increasing the Q-factor can help--I use 9mm longer spindles (heels can come in more). Using a cleat extender plate to get the cleats about 20mm further back on the shoe. I also have the Speedplay set up so all the float is with heel in (shoes clip out just after shoes are facing straight forward; inward float is set so heels can go in as far as the want). As you said, I never use float where heels are out but do use float from centerline inwards. Also, love Lake CX332 shoes with G8 insoles. I am too sensitive to changes like Jesse so spent tons of time getting everything right so that the knees don't hurt. Love these weekly shows!!!
It’s a fact that most cyclist don’t watch or follow pro cycling. I find it weird as I’ve followed the pro tour since early 80’s and watch pretty much every race but I could be having coffee with a couple of groups from C-A graders and not a mention!
Re cleat float and placement / alignment topic @ 35 minutes... 1) Like the both of you I have my cleat alignment set up (SPD-SL) so that I have approximately 5mm clearance between my heels and the cranks... Of further background... I am duck footed - like the majority of humans ( and yourselves I think from your comments ) and so I will always gravitate my heels towards the crank arms - medial - and I prefer not to scruff my cranks or shoes... 2) Regarding float on cleats - on my outside road shoes I run blue SPD-SL because I like to have a little bit of float available to accelerate my foot motion in order to un-clip... This way I can run a little more binding tension - if I were to use fixed cleats I would likely need to lower the binding tension to un-clip easier... Having a little bit of space to snap my heel outboard and un-clip is useful to me... Make sense ? ? Cheers - enjoying the podcasts as well as the ride footage... but seeing all your sunshine gives me a lot of ride envy as there's still 2 meters of snow here in northern Japan...☹☹🥶🥶
I think you kinda missed the point on the GCN video. It wasnt a scientific approach and also just comparing ALL components old vs new. Of course its advertising, too, but they do really good scientific videos as well. I did enjoy the knife comparison and the little vintage snippets. Si is just awesome, isnt he? Cheers!✌️
I prefer the 9 degree keo cleats, I allow for minimal inward float ( a degree or two, not enough to rub against the crank). The rest is outward float. I also have 4.5 degree cleats, which is fine for racing or short rides. But on long lazy rides, I can ride with my ankles slightly rotated out, some of the time. Shoes, I have a pair of high end Fizik shoes, fit perfectly, but I might as well pour petrol on my few because after 20km my feet are on fire (no matter what insoles Fizik, Specialized, Giro or G8 are used). I am lucky enough to be size 42, so I can get regular or women specific in certain brands/style. The women specific in Giro are too narrow for me, but the Specialized are the right width and a perfect heel cup for me, so I get more comfort and confidence in riding in them. Laces vs Boas, disagree with you. Laces distribute the stress evenly over your foot, compared to Boas which usually is six points. Which is probably why you need to loosen the Boas are your feet warm up and expand and then need to tighten for the sprint. Boas may be popular in cycling but in ball sports and running, everybody uses laces. Do you see a soccer player tighten their Boas before a free kick, where a tight fitting shoe would be an advantage after running for X minutes?
@@matkrek problem is the Fizik's do not appear to be a narrow fit, and the feet on fire starts in the sole. Giro Empire WS are too narrow and I felt it in the outer forefoot of both feet.
Cleats - same as you guys, I’d be wearing out the crank and chain stays if I centralised the float position, so set up on the limit. I also like the float(yellow Shimano) help with my knees(old man) on the full pedal stroke. Great topic and another good podcast😊👍
Bike A vs Bike B with some time difference. Then swap the wheels and tyres to the slower bike and get a new time. Then we know what improvements came from the wheels and tyres vs the rest of the bike.
I was on the fence about that video. I just seen it as "Turbo Trainer to Velodrome". All the challenge videos are the same, they miss one giant area to focus on, be it under-geared for a climbing challenge or under-velodromed for a Velodrome challenge. They're just a meme at this point.
Also set up cleats the same. Currently on speed play and maybe run 1 to 2 degrees float max and that float might be used out if the saddle at high power but that’s a maybe.
I kinda do what you guys do with the float, I set the cleat to where it's at the limit of the float and my heel is slightly inward towards the crank. My heel wouldn't touch the crank If i had more float though, If it did I would probably buy pedals with wider spindles to space my feet further apart so I could have the stance my feet naturally wants to be at.
I've been frustrated by these unfair comparisons many times. For example, I have a 2012 Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi-Mod. Most of the bike has been upgraded over the years and it now has a mechanical Dura-Ace 2x11 groupset, BB Infinite BB, Easton Aero handlebars and Reynolds Strike 62 wheels. I'd love to see a comparison between an older bike with newer wheels/tires, vs something like a Canyon Aeroad. I'm sure there are gains on a modern aero frame with internal cable routing, but how noticeable are they on the road?
Re feet/shoe types: if you're buying multiple styles of $500-600 shoes and you're finding discrepancies in comfort/performance then I really think a bike fit with a particular focus on pressure mapping of the feet would be of value. Having recently done this myself, I've come to some very useful realizations about which stupidly expensive shoe I should be going after. Sadly I have to sell off most everything I own/love.
Insoles are known to increase comfort and/or performance. Most shoes don't come with good insoles, so replacing them is a must. Custom made insoles from carbon are normal for pro's.
Again, Jesse and Chris, great content gents. (Just love the reaction of both when Cleat float came up.....I couldn't stop laughing until it go serious). Next time I am in Sydney, I'll see if I can catch you guys around Centennial Park.
Having ridden both lace and boa shoes - I've never felt the need to stop and tighten a laced shoe. The boa shoes on the other hand are normally too tight or too loose.
If you think. finding shoes is hard, imagine having feet that are size 50 wide, or bigger. Choice of about 2 brands that even make my size, all shoes are expensive AF and nothing ever available in physical shops to try on. That said, insoles make a huge difference to comfort, especially on long rides, as does the q-factor being a bit wider than default road pedals.
As a guy who started off with old 'toe-clips', whose cleats helped strap your shoes directly INTO the pedal structure. The inside of my KNEES would hurt like crazy after riding. I never thought there was a root cause. There was NO literature or study in that regard. Only when I came back to cycling after the advent of 'float' did I notice that the pain was GONE . . . . for EVER!
Thanks God there's some good stuff still , to help us improve in this amazing sport wich cycling is , without trying to make US spend millions ... Kudos to all: Norcal Lanterne RCA Cade And ofc Chris! Keep all good Work
I "DO" value PT's testing and results; because I so far find him to be the most objective and trustworthy. I also see GCN's stuff as entertainment and do not take any of their results seriously. Also, I agree with Jesse (finally, and that's not a slight of him, we just approach things differently) but I have a pair of 2015 frames, one 538 steel and one carbon, that I will continue to modernize and optimize with new parts up until the point that I no longer can.
If you're after a training program, or how to train yourself, AND you consider yourself fairly cluey, you have to check out the Empirical Cycling Podcast with Kolie Moore.
I use zero-float cleats. I'm not a fan of the boa system. The boa system, for me, never stays tight. The laces have always stayed tight for me. My Olympic weightlifting shoes use the boa system, and I constantly have to adjust after every set.
Regarding cycling media. I would like to see more stuff like the @OompaLoompaCycling interviews. It's time to go beyond comparisons, aliexpress and promo code reviews.
Chris!!! That’s my point as to why the UCI is good! The Americas cup boats, vs what everyone else sails. The UCI rules are what keeps cycling down to earth. Same thing with NASCAR. The sport got ruined, cause now they aren’t even cars anymore, they’re just racing machines.
I tried 0 float and for me it somehow felt restrictive and I went back to the grey look cleats. I think most people need some wiggle factor through the full stroke (so to speak). Was Jessie describing arch support or an ankle problem with certain brands? If your going down the rabbit hole don’t leave out custom footbeds.
When you do your shoe review, cover wether they offer replacement heel pads. So many don’t and so you’ve bought a $300 shoe that you wear thru the heel in a season and now the shoe is worthless because the heel pad can’t get replaced. I use the high end Bontrager shoes for many years and yes they have replaceable heel pads, which I replace usually every other season.
I run my right cleat as described to stop heel striking the crank but I definitely need the float. When I install new cleats that are tight with a bunch of friction I will get knee pain. Magic trick to fix it is a drop of wax lube on the mating surfaces. Floats like a dream!
I thought the purpose of float was to protect your joints since nobody has a perfect and repetitive pedal stroke. I use the blue cleats which are 4 degree (?). 2 degrees either side is not going to make much difference.
I've had bike fits with Steve Hogg, Aaron Dunford and a LOT of trial and error. It's extremely personal. Everyone is different but I think once you set the angle of your foot correctly either neutral, heel in or heel out, float means bugger all. Personally I have my heels in to the limit of the cleat adjustment including having the 4mm extra axle so my heels don't hit the crank. If you feel you need to 'limit' your heel in, you need a bigger Q factor and just keep going until your feet feel neutral, no more pushing either way. Shimano make 4mm extra axle. Speedplay have axles as long as you need.
Set up my cleats to stop the inside of my heel rubbing on the cranks. I do move my feet around a little as the old knees don't like being locked in tight.
Coaching courses are really useful, I do one and I've really got a lot out of it. I can also ask qualified coaches any questions regularly and I think I've come a long way from just following the supplied off the shelf plans. I guess they are good for guys like me that cannot guarantee 12 hrs and more a week training time, but want more than just your Trainer Road Plans. I think Jesse is right, this is kinda in between Trainer Road Plans and having a coach. And there are a lot of folks out there that this middle ground offering suits. I know a lot more about how to train now than I would have from just following an off the shelf program.
i'm posting again. sorry..the cleat thing was interesting and yes i've though about it before. on the commuter (pre-covid) on the SPD-SL i did that so they were "zero float" coz they have so much float. but on my normal road bike i have them in the middle of the float...but you got me thinking about it again since you made that post.
where the three holes are for the cleats can vary across shoes at all levels of budget and that can have a massive impact on comfort and power transfer depending on the rider and their pedalling style. quite often the three holes are set to far forward and if you need to get set your cleats back it can be hard to get them back far enough. I use a third party piece on my gaerne shoes so I can get my cleats further back.
Obviously you elites have not tried the Specialized Torch 1.0 "Entry Level" shoe. Incredible value for the money. I use it (in Black Chris) mainly for Winter riding with more toe room for heavier socks. I paid about $80 for them and can not believe the fit and finish for so little cash. They rival my Sidi Shots for comfort.
Pro Cycling also doesn’t do itself any favours either when it actively tries to make riders as boring as possible (even when they do have a personality). Compare Remco’s public personality in 2019 on social media to 2022 and it’s night and day
Comes back to this underlying insecurity in the sport IMO. Everyone is afraid of pissing off the wrong person (sponsor, team owner, governing body) so the content turns into weak tea. Ps. Thanks for being the change 🙏🏼
The NBA thrives off colorful personalities. It allows them to occupy the media landscape even when there aren't any games.
Professional cycling's reliance on team sponsorships makes the whole environment feel more like a house of cards (ie: Cavendish and BnB Hotels fiasco)
ua-cam.com/video/DaDC5iLfwEE/v-deo.html to the above point regarding Remco's socials
Perfectly articulated Paul, well said.
Cycling fans are largely middle class. They/we are not the same people as those who watch football/soccer hence why we love all the boring stuff, don’t argue a point, don’t create debate, love all the engineering tech…
Thanks for the shout-out guys! We're super proud of the Masterclass, and totally agree that people will still have questions - it's a difficult and complicated sport after all. That's why I host livestreams with members to have that one-on-one experience of traditional coaching. Love the Podcast, keep up the great work 🤘
Congratulations on the channel guys, loving the content. Cheers for the comment and clarifying the livestreams (great idea mind you). 👍🏽👍🏽
I bought into the NorCal cycling training, honestly it’s a fair middle ground. He gives you a training syllabus for various parts of your race year and he has tons of videos explaining all parts of racing and equipment etc. I will say he will also answer your questions and he also does zoom meetings. This was also pitched as some people can’t afford and don’t want to pay for a full time coach. I’m honestly happy with it so far. Definitely great for off season riding.
Thanks for the love guys! I am the one who is hosting NorCal Cycling 2. Its been a blast and I will definitely continue making vlogs into the race season. The channel did start in conjunction with the course but has branched into its own avenue because of the feedback it has received. So, seriously thank you guys for shining good light on what we are doing over here in NorCal!
Keep up the wild and engaging content EJ. I love seeing the challenges you are biting-off.
Explanation of why a bike is faster in any GCN video: it's a bike from one of their sponsors.
The subtext of the videos is always clear to me-marketing of new gear to sell bikes.
...and yet every other channel talks about whatever GCN is talking about.
@@theantichrome9842 Then you're watching the wrong channels
You two are doing a terrific job. Insightful and fun to watch. Well done.
👏 You two are bringing fresh perspectives into the competitive cycling space, and it’s making me think more critically about the topics.
Seriously: Thank you.
Glad you are enjoying it BB. Do us a favour and send it on to your mates 🙏🏼
Really enjoying these podcasts more and more guys, good job! We need more interesting discussions to add to Patrick and Benjis stuff.
I agree that we've had a plethora of old bike vs new bike pieces lately, but I actually enjoy them. Such videos have become popular, and relevant, because new high-end bike prices are through the roof and people who are moderately serious riders are turning toward older high-end bikes as an alternative. As a fan of older, classic bikes, I feel vindicated in a way when an "old" bike pretty much matches a cutting edge "new" bike. I don't mind when a certain level of subjectivity appears and a lack of variables control creeps in.
The assertion that a frame is a bike is absurd. Clearly, a frame is not a bike. Nobody ever won a race on a frame. A bike is a system made of many parts and components, but even a bike can't win a race or go fast. The key component in the system that goes down the road is the rider, who is him or herself a system.
These Chris & Jesse videos continue to be the best cycling content on UA-cam. Chris’s comparison of a modern Ti frame bike and the Factor, using the same wheels/tires on both bikes and the same fit adjustment on both bikes is the only valid bike comparison that I’ve seen.
The GCN old vs new got me when Simon said the position on his new bike was lower, longer and hence more aero than his old bike. I race a 2010 frame (Fuji SL which was a very early aero bike), with mechanical 10 speed drivetrain (using current low friction thinking), newer wheels with modern tyres and tubes (the wheels are not that new to be tubeless) with modern tyre pressures and 36cm bars. Still lose a few watts with exposed cables and round handlebars, but I can be competitive when fit.
Exposed cables aren't costing you watts, remember once a human body gets on a bike, the whole aero profile is disrupted to begin with, and it comes down to position most of the time. Internal cable routing is an esthetic fad mostly, a royal pain, and leads to a weaker frame.
@@danielhall3895 It is a pain for mechanical gearing and rim brake bikes because the cabling bends cause issues with shifting accuracy and brake sponginess, but how does it make a frame weaker though?
@@82vitt A completely internally routed bike puts holes in a lot of places that can increase fatigue or increase the chances of fractures on modern, carbon frames. Especially where you really don't want them, like the fork blades, or any of the stays on a bike. Drilling cable routing holes isn't a problem on a metal frame, but on a carbon, these add to more places where stress fractures can start popping up, and less visibly earlier on top of that.
You'd be surprised how many people think a small fracture in a carbon seatpost isn't a big structural deal, because they'll do any sort of mental gymnastic to not stay off the bike and have to open up their wallet, as well as wait to fix the problem before a catastophic failure. They'd be even less concerned with the beginning of a small fracture in a stay or a fork. Everything internally routed is putting aesthetics over real functionality and durability.
@@danielhall3895 I am on my sixth fully internally routed bike frame set - I purchased my first in 2015. They come with issues, but cracking due to high stresses around the cable/hose holes don't seem to be an issue. Those areas are additionally reinforced with more material to resist those stresses. I think people are making too much of it. Mine aren't the lightest out there though, so maybe if I was looking at something unusually lightweight made by a boutique brand, I would be more suspicious. If the elite can ride 30k km a year on those things, so can I. Obviously, defects can and do happen (lots due to user abuse, lack of care or simply incompetence), but that's the nature of mass produced goods that once in a while something will go wrong.
@@82vitt You have a point, but an elite rider does get a new frame handed to him or her, everytime there's even a small hint of a problem. I'm not trying to be an alarmest for unfounded reasons, but google some of the problems that have accompanied a lot of the newer internally routed frames from the large brands over the past three years.
Totally agree with Mr.Miller's viewpoint. Most customers buying road bikes aren't racing. Road bikes frames are fundamentally quite boring (compared to the variables in MTB), the manufacturers ran out of being able to market their frames on weight/ stiffness as most are roughly the same - so the new marketing is how 'fast' it is. But if the rider is not racing then I'd argue that being the fastest by a few seconds on your ride is way down the list of sensible priorities. Just ride the bike that feels the nicest, is the most fun, and is the least of a P.I.T.A. to live with and maintain. A simple frame of the style from a decade ago with good wheels and tyres is enough for most riders, some just need to drop the ego a bit and stop trying to emulate the pro's whose needs and performance are in a different league anyway. Most ex-Pro's I've chatted to aren't even that bothered about their bikes, seeing it as just a tool for a job that gets changed every season, zero emotion.
@Jessie
I was one of those people "not knowing what you were asking for" -
but after this explanation: i set it straight (so theoretically 2° in and 2° out movement)
My BOA always lose a bit after every ride... but my laces using the lace lock laces stay tight after every ride.
On the fantasy league idea: the Sporza Wielermanager (cycling manager) in Belgium is exactly that and is quite popular! You built your team within a budget, with a few transfers and you select the riders for each race. I think this year the 'seasons' and thus different competitions are the classics season, Giro and Tour.
Done bike fits of all types with my shop and all we were trying to get to was to NOT be banging up against the float limits as the leg cycled through its crank rotation. Maybe 5 % of clients will have a beautiful straight up-ad-down (as viewed from front), the other bunch have all manner of assymetrys (sp) that need rotational allowance(float). We set the cleats to hit that middle ground so that the knees don't have to take the stress. Between a computrainer spin scan and shooting some video with a laser level, this can get sorted quite fast. Cheers, great job, really like this format.
With Nor Cal’s plan, it covers a lot of the soft skills of racing that a trainer road wouldn’t typically cover, which makes it good for new racers, who want more than fitness in my opinion
Entry level shoe user here. I use a fizik and it was the one that got rid of the hotspots I suffered with the shimano. It was all about the forefoot shape for me and how the straps/boa secured my foot.
I think whole whole bike comparison of today vs 10 or 15 years ago is legit. Many of the frame changes we've had were driven by the desire for deeper section carbon wheels. Disc brakes, room for bigger tires etc. were the result of wheel changes. I simply can't put the wheels from my new bike on my 10 year old bike. (I love riding both of them, btw)
Agree. Think this is a weird take just to complain about GCN
Genuinely found the cleat float stuff interesting. Going to try less float and see if it makes a difference
I agree that it is actually the wheels that have improved dramatically in the last 10 years. It would be interesting to do a comparison of a 2013 frame with carbon wheels v a 2023 bike
To me the comparison is to the full old bike, not just the frame. Yes, if I put all the tech on my old bike, it is better - I upgraded my old Orbea from 2006 to new 105. It is way better now, but I think you need to think of everything that goes in to it.
As a non-pro, the biggest differences are tire width and disc brakes. I really prefer riding with discs compared to the rim brakes, and I love my 28mm tires (the Orbea is limited to 25mm). Objectively, the orbea is not much slower. However, I definitely prefer riding my newer bike. I could say a lot more about comfort, relative cost, etc., but at the end of the day I ride to enjoy the experience. I enjoy rides on the orbea, but I enjoy the newer bike more.
As an aside, I did have an aluminum 2016 Ridley with 105 - when I picked a bike to sell to upgrade to my current bike, I ditched the Ridley. I like the orbea more than that one.
Also this one for you Chris. I've watched your vids for years and over that time it is very evident you have very good adaptability. You've said previously you never have issues with saddles, you put one on, you ride, it works. I feel it's the same with shoes, your body just adapts. You could have an average bit fit and your body makes it work. Those people who come into the bike shop and hate on a particular shoe are not adaptable. There are people out there (me included) who constantly battle bike fit and equipment problems which gets in the way of just riding and therefor consistent training without injury. So when you say 'shoes don't matter', 'saddle doesn't matter' it's from a slightly rose coloured glasses view. Not a negative, just saying equipment really does matter for a lot of people.
Interesting comment. Are you saying some people are just naturally more adaptable? I tried on over 10 pairs of shoes and only one did I put on and say YES, this is comfortable. Could I have ridden others? Maybe. But am I going to spend a lot of money on a maybe? No. So I got the one that was already comfortable from just putting it on. And it turns out it is a great shoe. And I am already trying to find it online again (it seems to not be continued anymore) to have it when the current pair becomes too old.
Yes, I agree. It always baffled me how some people get a bike from a shop with a random pair of shoes and cleats and can just ride with no issues. It took me 3 different fitters, trying different shoes, insoles and saddles, plus 155mm cranks to ride a bike with no niggles. Setting a bike up cost me more than the bike itself.
I ride for hours with no issues now, but I envy those who can ride anything. I recently bought a cheap town bike just for shopping trips and the 170 cranks were making my knees iffy in less than 1h. I found a shorter crankset, however, it cost me half of what I paid for the bike itself!
@@messi9991 Yep, there is a lot of literature out there about some high performance athletes having high adaptability as one of their traits for success in addition to high vo2 max, mindset etc. There are good examples of pro riders with horrendous riding positions and styles yet somehow still manage to put out huge power. Of course adaptability is probably linked to age, so bad form does catch up to older riders.
I'm on the same boat as you re: cleat float. My heels come all the way in to the cranks and I run 0° float. If your foot doesn't use the float I don't see a point in having it. I also like the feeling of being in locked in for sprints where my body is dependent on the plastic cleat holding my weight. Even if the float won't cause it to slip out I feel more secure without it and the mental aspect is almost more important.
On the shoe subject... I went on a deep dive looking at dozens of shoes, looking at laces, boas... Different brands... And then my wife bought me specialized shoes purely because I have a specialized bike and her entire logic was it'd be nice if my shoes matched the brand and I've found i actually really like the shoes.
In the end if a cyclist isn't matching, are they a true cyclist?
Have to say I'm loving the NorCal 2 channel, like the vlog style but EJ is relatable to my circumstances
Glad you enjoy it!
As the road season continues its starts I find myself already missing the CX races which really wowed me this year for the first time. Given a choice now between watching either CX currently wins.
I love this podcast! So refreshing.
Glad you enjoy it!
@@ChrisMillerCycling i really do, especially the fact that the two of you have such good synergy. And i really appreciate the way you guys present the topics (you dont try to sell stuff or please your sponsors). i really hope your podcast goes through the roof!
thanks again
I use Kneesavers Pedal Extenders to be able to ride with toe-out condition. Use the yellow Shimano cleats with 6 degree float. Don't ignore cycling related knee pain, get a bike fitter to help if needed. Bike fitter James Thomas ranted about zero float on the Cade Media channel recently.
I like the GCN comparison videos. I believe that this old vs new was comparing state of the art bikes in period correct configuration. Loved the legendary TT bikes tests.
If I can’t watch a race I like to see the Chris Horner analysis of the races.
Great show guys. Thank you as always. On the shoe topic. For 'regular' shoes, day-to-day I'm never too picky and find that most fit fine - find the right size and off we go. For cycling shoes, my experience has been completely different. I now only look for brands that offer 'wide' shoe options, like Bont or Sidi, and even then find my feet are happy when I don't tighten them down too much. Most other shoes have been a nightmare of pain after 30 mins. Just too narrow. Fizik and Giro point in case - love their styling and quality, but sadly have been impossible to use. When I hear you Chris talk about all your shoes and seeing finding no difference, I'm jealous! Yes, I guess they have all been quality shoes, but for everyone with 'normal' feet who have more to choose from, I suppose it all comes down to personal preference for the styling?! For the old-vs-new bike, I don't think there's that much in it, so long as we are comparing quality frames. In my experience tires and tubes have made an incredible difference in ride quality and speed. Amazingly so. And then wheels. It's all in the wheels/tires . . .
The 2013 comparison is relevant to me. I have a 2013 Giant TCR SL0 running Light Bicycle 46mm carbon clinchers, 7.2 kg with pedals. I’m after a performance improvement and not just a nice looking current bike. 10 years on i don’t want to replace it with a heavier bike. $8-12k AUD will get me a heavier bike an highly questionable whether it will be more aero. For $13-15k would get a Canyon Ultimate or new TCR Advanced SL only a few hundred grams lighter and pretty marginal area gains ($18-20k for other brands) - a lot of money for pretty minimal gain.
One of the best things I did for my stroke was to work from yellow, to blue, then finally red for 9100 pedals. For me personally it feels much better, and this is with self-setup position. Not everyone needs float I don't think, but it's kind of just the thing to do?
Working on weak glutes ( clam shells / resistance banded monster walks) made a huge difference to how my feet tracked. I found that my cleats migrated from a heels in set up to a more centralised float.
My knees tracked better too .
I recently got bonts and I still can’t explain how they feel when I’m asked if I like them. I agree they initially seem like torture traps, they are SO stiff it almost needs a new word to describe it. However, when I’m riding, I completely forget about my feet and that’s the first time that’s ever happened. So they’re simultaneously frightening stiff & the most comfortable shoe I’ve ever had.
Unless you are putting 1500w into a sprint when stiffness counts, other than that, it is comfort all the way....if you find Bont to be super comfy then you've struck gold, stay with it and be grateful you found something so comfy.
"The bikes got four times as expensive, but not four times faster" - I agree wholeheartedly with that, and you can go back to the late 80s and early 90s to see that is the case. One could by a top-of-the-line fully assembled road bike, made of high quality steel or aluminum, for around $2000. Even the Kestrel 4000, the first carbon fiber bike ever released (1987), could be had for slightly less than $2000. Now a top level set of wheels will cost that much. The problem with new top end bikes is that, as with the most expensive phones, computers, cars, etc., they offer increasingly diminished returns - much lower bang per buck. Yes, the cost of living was much less than it is today, but certainly not by 4 to 7 times.
Big topic shoes. The fits vary enormously. As somebody with double wide feet I can totally forget trying Sidi, Shimano and others they are literally too narrow and will torture me - on the opposite end of the scale are Bont shoes which have a philosophy of giving more space in the toe box than most brands and crucially they come in multiple width fittings. Bont for the win from my side.
I used the blue Shimano cleats because they came with my shoes. My heels knock on the chain stays and crank sometimes which is annoying. So I tried red cleats (zero float) last week and will never use anything else now. All shoes changed to red cleats this week.
Coincidentally last weekend I reset the cleats on all three pairs of my shoes to remove the heal-in float so I wouldn't touch the cranks. It was just a couple of degrees but it felt great straight away. It sort of gave me something push against and felt less floaty (of course).
My cleats are currently set up slightly heal-in. You're saying you're now set up with the cleats neutral, and it feels good? Interesting. I might try that.
Another thing I think is fan content creation especially on UA-cam. You can create reels on insta or TikTok’s but it’s hard to make pro cycling content on UA-cam with actual footage of the race with getting copyrighted.
you guys touched on it...vlogs do seem somewhat dead. Cycling vlogs get me through trainer workouts....get on the vlogs boys!
My feet goes inward towards the frame while pedalling (especially the right foot). If i reduce the float I start to get knee pain. The question is weather the inward or outward movement of leg is natural or cause by an underlying health condition. I my case its the latter. So the float helps me alot in injury prevention.
The corporate advertising identities of pro cycling teams makes them alienating and boring - if they were national teams or teams with identities beyond random logos people would care.
True
They also need to make the riders more recognizable during broadcast...I can't distinguish the riders unless there is a close-up and you see his face or the commentator mentions who that is...we are basically looking into a big bunch of people and waiting for one of them to come forward and then you can take a wild guess who it is. Each rider inside the team needs to wear something different, maybe color of his helmet (like the yellow and red cameras on top of F1 cars), and a huge number on his back (like in all other team sports) that is visible from those heli shots. That is when people will starting rooting and getting into discussions about one vs. other rider. Currently I'm rooting for Girmay...because he winning now and then...and is the only that I can recognize in the bunch.
Agree. Cycling needs to get it's act together and create franchises. Buying a World Tour team licence should mean buying the rights to a recognised franchise or creating a permanent franchise. And you slap the new sponsor name on the front
It's so depressing trying to explain to my dad that Lotto Soudal from last year is not Soudal Quickstep this year. Or Alpecin Deceuninck is also not Quickstep
Re the cleat float discussion, check out Cam Nicholl’s RCA UA-cam channel, and have a look at the videos from Neill Stanbury, who’s not only a physio but a world class bike fitter.
NorCal has some good videos showing the difference between frames. One of the test is a SL7 vs SL6 with the same wheels and tires.
Thanks for the info!
My take on training courses in general is that they can be great for a certain kind of person, but it highly depends on the content of the specific course as well as the values of the person buying it. The person who it can work for is the person who wants more agency and knowledge of their own training, but doesn't have the time to do all the research and compilation of sources on their own. This also relies on the teacher and the course itself being solid and containing enough info to provide a solid base for that person. If there's not enough or it's bad info, of course the whole thing is bunk. But as long as it's a good solid base to build on, it can be a very efficient (time wise) way to build knowledge in a structured manor, and provide jumping-off points to do more research on their own, whether that is via asking more questions to the teacher or resesarching on their own.
I did enjoy the Venga podcast due to Mitch Docker's color commentary. Also, hearing Mitch and Matthew Keenan arguing with each other was refreshing. I wish that podcast was still around. Love your guy's hot takes, and keep up the solid content.
A) peak torque is fantastic
B) they did a lot of ebay bike challenges even back whenever
C) the uci keeping bikes to a standard is a big part of things. Even triathlon requires bike shaped bikes, as opposed to recumbent or other spaceships
Thanks for the comment Facing, great takes.
I loved the Tarmac in the comparison
For everyday riding and affordable maintenance it’s hard to beat
I was a doubter of laced shoes till I got a pair, they are now my go to. Still have a pair of Suplest with boas which hardly get used now.
I like the float. I set my speedplay up so the limiter keeps my heel from rubbing the crank with a 2-3mm margin extra. The outer limit I set to allow foot to be where I generally pedal plus a bit. Not excessive so I can unclip without excessive ankle turn out. During normal riding I don’t hit against either limit, except maybe when I get tired and sloppy I’ll feel I’m touching the limits on the heel inside. I ride within the float. I also use custom spindle length 59mm, but the cleat isn’t at its extreme inward. Also run cleats all the way back as far as they’ll go. If I could go more I would, and when I go to the latest pedals I might try the mid foot adapters.
Please. Turn the fork around on the frame behind Jesse. My OCD is melting down.
😂
Fascinating point... that 10 years ago GCN weren't making "old bike vs new" videos like they do now.
Chris you hit the nail on the head re4 x more expensive. I think most consumers feels they are not getting good value. New bikes are faster, but incrementally so where as the price has moved transformationally. This plays to the narrative we all love of getting ripped off by evil large corporations and their snake oil marketing departments 😂
LOL, I am even crazier than you both with cleats. If your heels come in (decreasing stance) increasing the Q-factor can help--I use 9mm longer spindles (heels can come in more). Using a cleat extender plate to get the cleats about 20mm further back on the shoe. I also have the Speedplay set up so all the float is with heel in (shoes clip out just after shoes are facing straight forward; inward float is set so heels can go in as far as the want). As you said, I never use float where heels are out but do use float from centerline inwards.
Also, love Lake CX332 shoes with G8 insoles. I am too sensitive to changes like Jesse so spent tons of time getting everything right so that the knees don't hurt. Love these weekly shows!!!
Keep up the good work gents, the honest and forthright opinions are refreshing in a world of bland and paid promotion based cycling coverage
It’s a fact that most cyclist don’t watch or follow pro cycling. I find it weird as I’ve followed the pro tour since early 80’s and watch pretty much every race but I could be having coffee with a couple of groups from C-A graders and not a mention!
Find better groups, yours are clearly devoid Robert lol
Re cleat float and placement / alignment topic @ 35 minutes...
1) Like the both of you I have my cleat alignment set up (SPD-SL) so that I have approximately 5mm clearance between my heels and the cranks...
Of further background... I am duck footed - like the majority of humans ( and yourselves I think from your comments ) and so I will always gravitate my heels towards the crank arms - medial - and I prefer not to scruff my cranks or shoes...
2) Regarding float on cleats - on my outside road shoes I run blue SPD-SL because I like to have a little bit of float available to accelerate my foot motion in order to un-clip... This way I can run a little more binding tension - if I were to use fixed cleats I would likely need to lower the binding tension to un-clip easier... Having a little bit of space to snap my heel outboard and un-clip is useful to me...
Make sense ? ?
Cheers - enjoying the podcasts as well as the ride footage... but seeing all your sunshine gives me a lot of ride envy as there's still 2 meters of snow here in northern Japan...☹☹🥶🥶
I think you kinda missed the point on the GCN video. It wasnt a scientific approach and also just comparing ALL components old vs new. Of course its advertising, too, but they do really good scientific videos as well. I did enjoy the knife comparison and the little vintage snippets. Si is just awesome, isnt he?
Cheers!✌️
I prefer the 9 degree keo cleats, I allow for minimal inward float ( a degree or two, not enough to rub against the crank). The rest is outward float. I also have 4.5 degree cleats, which is fine for racing or short rides. But on long lazy rides, I can ride with my ankles slightly rotated out, some of the time.
Shoes, I have a pair of high end Fizik shoes, fit perfectly, but I might as well pour petrol on my few because after 20km my feet are on fire (no matter what insoles Fizik, Specialized, Giro or G8 are used).
I am lucky enough to be size 42, so I can get regular or women specific in certain brands/style. The women specific in Giro are too narrow for me, but the Specialized are the right width and a perfect heel cup for me, so I get more comfort and confidence in riding in them.
Laces vs Boas, disagree with you. Laces distribute the stress evenly over your foot, compared to Boas which usually is six points. Which is probably why you need to loosen the Boas are your feet warm up and expand and then need to tighten for the sprint. Boas may be popular in cycling but in ball sports and running, everybody uses laces. Do you see a soccer player tighten their Boas before a free kick, where a tight fitting shoe would be an advantage after running for X minutes?
Feet on fire suggest the shoes arent a perfect fit though, you may need wider shoes
@@matkrek problem is the Fizik's do not appear to be a narrow fit, and the feet on fire starts in the sole. Giro Empire WS are too narrow and I felt it in the outer forefoot of both feet.
Cleats - same as you guys, I’d be wearing out the crank and chain stays if I centralised the float position, so set up on the limit. I also like the float(yellow Shimano) help with my knees(old man) on the full pedal stroke. Great topic and another good podcast😊👍
These chats are great. Keep them coming
Bike A vs Bike B with some time difference. Then swap the wheels and tyres to the slower bike and get a new time.
Then we know what improvements came from the wheels and tyres vs the rest of the bike.
The GCN ep where Alex trains and rides the pursuit is a good new one. Enjoying all your stuff tho 🙂
I was on the fence about that video.
I just seen it as "Turbo Trainer to Velodrome". All the challenge videos are the same, they miss one giant area to focus on, be it under-geared for a climbing challenge or under-velodromed for a Velodrome challenge.
They're just a meme at this point.
Also set up cleats the same. Currently on speed play and maybe run 1 to 2 degrees float max and that float might be used out if the saddle at high power but that’s a maybe.
I did a response to the ridiculousness of that GCN bike comparison video. They didn't even attempt to align the spec, eg. wheelset, position etc.
Your Julian Alaphilippe example reminded me of news broadcasts trying to entice viewers to watch their broadcast.
I kinda do what you guys do with the float, I set the cleat to where it's at the limit of the float and my heel is slightly inward towards the crank. My heel wouldn't touch the crank If i had more float though, If it did I would probably buy pedals with wider spindles to space my feet further apart so I could have the stance my feet naturally wants to be at.
I've been frustrated by these unfair comparisons many times. For example, I have a 2012 Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi-Mod. Most of the bike has been upgraded over the years and it now has a mechanical Dura-Ace 2x11 groupset, BB Infinite BB, Easton Aero handlebars and Reynolds Strike 62 wheels. I'd love to see a comparison between an older bike with newer wheels/tires, vs something like a Canyon Aeroad. I'm sure there are gains on a modern aero frame with internal cable routing, but how noticeable are they on the road?
Re feet/shoe types: if you're buying multiple styles of $500-600 shoes and you're finding discrepancies in comfort/performance then I really think a bike fit with a particular focus on pressure mapping of the feet would be of value. Having recently done this myself, I've come to some very useful realizations about which stupidly expensive shoe I should be going after. Sadly I have to sell off most everything I own/love.
Insoles are known to increase comfort and/or performance. Most shoes don't come with good insoles, so replacing them is a must. Custom made insoles from carbon are normal for pro's.
Again, Jesse and Chris, great content gents. (Just love the reaction of both when Cleat float came up.....I couldn't stop laughing until it go serious). Next time I am in Sydney, I'll see if I can catch you guys around Centennial Park.
Having ridden both lace and boa shoes - I've never felt the need to stop and tighten a laced shoe. The boa shoes on the other hand are normally too tight or too loose.
If you think. finding shoes is hard, imagine having feet that are size 50 wide, or bigger.
Choice of about 2 brands that even make my size, all shoes are expensive AF and nothing ever available in physical shops to try on.
That said, insoles make a huge difference to comfort, especially on long rides, as does the q-factor being a bit wider than default road pedals.
Nothing like a 30 minute whinge then a chat about cleat float 😂 gold
As a guy who started off with old 'toe-clips', whose cleats helped strap your shoes directly INTO the pedal structure. The inside of my KNEES would hurt like crazy after riding. I never thought there was a root cause. There was NO literature or study in that regard. Only when I came back to cycling after the advent of 'float' did I notice that the pain was GONE . . . . for EVER!
Thanks God there's some good stuff still , to help us improve in this amazing sport wich cycling is , without trying to make US spend millions ... Kudos to all:
Norcal
Lanterne
RCA
Cade
And ofc Chris!
Keep all good Work
That sailboat analogy is going to wind up the sailing enthusiasts Chris! Sailing tech at the "enthusiast" level is far removed from 1983 😆
I "DO" value PT's testing and results; because I so far find him to be the most objective and trustworthy. I also see GCN's stuff as entertainment and do not take any of their results seriously. Also, I agree with Jesse (finally, and that's not a slight of him, we just approach things differently) but I have a pair of 2015 frames, one 538 steel and one carbon, that I will continue to modernize and optimize with new parts up until the point that I no longer can.
If you're after a training program, or how to train yourself, AND you consider yourself fairly cluey, you have to check out the Empirical Cycling Podcast with Kolie Moore.
I use zero-float cleats. I'm not a fan of the boa system. The boa system, for me, never stays tight. The laces have always stayed tight for me. My Olympic weightlifting shoes use the boa system, and I constantly have to adjust after every set.
Regarding cycling media. I would like to see more stuff like the @OompaLoompaCycling interviews. It's time to go beyond comparisons, aliexpress and promo code reviews.
Chris!!! That’s my point as to why the UCI is good! The Americas cup boats, vs what everyone else sails. The UCI rules are what keeps cycling down to earth. Same thing with NASCAR. The sport got ruined, cause now they aren’t even cars anymore, they’re just racing machines.
I run my cleat float same as you both. Haven’t tried 0°, but I ride speedplays with a bit of outward float.
My thoughts exactly I had a Sworks Sl3 with Corima Carbon 40mm rim's it was really quick..
I tried 0 float and for me it somehow felt restrictive and I went back to the grey look cleats. I think most people need some wiggle factor through the full stroke (so to speak).
Was Jessie describing arch support or an ankle problem with certain brands? If your going down the rabbit hole don’t leave out custom footbeds.
When you do your shoe review, cover wether they offer replacement heel pads. So many don’t and so you’ve bought a $300 shoe that you wear thru the heel in a season and now the shoe is worthless because the heel pad can’t get replaced. I use the high end Bontrager shoes for many years and yes they have replaceable heel pads, which I replace usually every other season.
I run my right cleat as described to stop heel striking the crank but I definitely need the float. When I install new cleats that are tight with a bunch of friction I will get knee pain. Magic trick to fix it is a drop of wax lube on the mating surfaces. Floats like a dream!
Great point!
I thought the purpose of float was to protect your joints since nobody has a perfect and repetitive pedal stroke. I use the blue cleats which are 4 degree (?). 2 degrees either side is not going to make much difference.
Blue Shimano cleats are 2 degrees. Shimano Red cleat is zero float.
Float is BS
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad Float isn’t bs. It has a purpose. Some people may not need any so don’t understand why it’s necessary…
Hey Chris, can you tell me where i can purchase a Devel Bike. I was searching serious Shops, but did not succeed
The metric fior shoes is comfort, nothing else matters. If your feet aren’t comfortable on a long ride on a hot day then riding becomes unbearable.
I've had bike fits with Steve Hogg, Aaron Dunford and a LOT of trial and error. It's extremely personal. Everyone is different but I think once you set the angle of your foot correctly either neutral, heel in or heel out, float means bugger all. Personally I have my heels in to the limit of the cleat adjustment including having the 4mm extra axle so my heels don't hit the crank. If you feel you need to 'limit' your heel in, you need a bigger Q factor and just keep going until your feet feel neutral, no more pushing either way. Shimano make 4mm extra axle. Speedplay have axles as long as you need.
The Assioma pedals in the Shimano version give about 10mm more width each side (this is what I use now on recommendation from a bike fitter)
Yep a factor is a huge thing, just that +4mm makes things way better for me.
Re Pro Cycling Commentary - l love the views of Chris Horner. Very insightful!!
Set up my cleats to stop the inside of my heel rubbing on the cranks. I do move my feet around a little as the old knees don't like being locked in tight.
Thanks Chris and Jesse.
Coaching courses are really useful, I do one and I've really got a lot out of it. I can also ask qualified coaches any questions regularly and I think I've come a long way from just following the supplied off the shelf plans. I guess they are good for guys like me that cannot guarantee 12 hrs and more a week training time, but want more than just your Trainer Road Plans. I think Jesse is right, this is kinda in between Trainer Road Plans and having a coach. And there are a lot of folks out there that this middle ground offering suits. I know a lot more about how to train now than I would have from just following an off the shelf program.
i'm posting again. sorry..the cleat thing was interesting and yes i've though about it before. on the commuter (pre-covid) on the SPD-SL i did that so they were "zero float" coz they have so much float. but on my normal road bike i have them in the middle of the float...but you got me thinking about it again since you made that post.
where the three holes are for the cleats can vary across shoes at all levels of budget and that can have a massive impact on comfort and power transfer depending on the rider and their pedalling style. quite often the three holes are set to far forward and if you need to get set your cleats back it can be hard to get them back far enough. I use a third party piece on my gaerne shoes so I can get my cleats further back.
Yes shoes use different molds I think. Some shoes are known more for a large toe box than others for example.
Obviously you elites have not tried the Specialized Torch 1.0 "Entry Level" shoe. Incredible value for the money. I use it (in Black Chris) mainly for Winter riding with more toe room for heavier socks. I paid about $80 for them and can not believe the fit and finish for so little cash. They rival my Sidi Shots for comfort.