I find the choice between zombies and skeletons often comes down to your planned support. For an army planning on not supporting them at all, the hardiness of zombies compliments their lower cost. For an amy planning around buffs, spells, auras, and the like, the higher stats of skeletons generally make them a much more functional baseline to work with. Either way, the fact that I'm comparing them to zombies is all you need to know about their essential status to the Vampire Counts as an army. There's a variety of situational and preferrential reasons to pick one over the other, and in another army the unit wouldn't be great, but the Vampire Counts make it work with style. The bone zone is a good place to be
Yes, it really is, once you get the techs adding up they really fulfill their potential of "I'm Helping" in a lot of situations. They're there for the 6th Undead award, not the star role.
Hmmm so empire swordsman get buffed when getting upgraded into skeleton warriors? Nice! I mean I still bro hope that the crumbling mechanic gets revisited at some point.
I feel personally like they've messed with crumbling so much over 3 game versions, it's fine if they leave them alone. Empire Swordsmen are better entity for entity and the new Empire Captain version can make them even better, but that's entity, per, entity. Skeletons getting 33% more entities does help if they're getting any love from you at all.
@@OffToBattle right now I tend to use zombies alongside ghuls in my fromline. But whenever there's a ror skeleton I will pick it up because I maxed out the redline buff anyway.
I know they're not completely trash, but you going over the VC units just highlights to me how hero dependent VC army comps are. I know some argue every army comp has hero dependencies but VCs feel especially so.
The roster benefits from and needs strong heroes. Skeletons are more of a grand strategic consideration, how to fill gaps you have because you can't have infinite heroes.. and so on. But in most situations you do benefit from being able to dial them in on short notice and get something similar to adequacy.
Any skelly or zombie trash stack buffed with overcast dance macabre and healed by the necromancer aura + passive can hold the line and kill almost everything, the only danger are AOE spells i really like to combine skeleton spear-men from raise dead with the zombies on my blobs. the +24 melee attack makes a huge difference for those tar pits early game, i rather pick that first than summon zombies.
While I do like my skelly spams I can't deny that the humble Skeleton Warrior feels lacking and thats why I almost never recruit them, always trying to get the spear version instead. Not only for the better melee defence to hold the line but also because spears are slightly better in auto resolve too.
@@OffToBattle Maybe some day we get a new Lord that specialises in our skelly bois and gives them something unique and interesting :D Btw. I just wanted to say that I realy liked your videos and the continued replies to so many comments! Thank you!
Lots but I try not to bother the algo with all my tastes, plus limits on time, but it was definitely the perfect time to mention "those" skeletons. Very entertaining.
Skeletons and Zombies are where I feel CA fumbled quite a bit. While they're relatively different, that's purely in terms of MP only. In campaign, Skeletons should just be the usual tier 0 trash hired from main buildings, while zombies should be free and occupy separate army slots attached to each army (like a waagh), so VC armies can always bring along some free cannon fodder zombies without worrying about wasting extremely limited 20 unit limits on throwaway garbage. Same for Skaven's clanrat and slaves, the slaves should be free in a separate army. Again, this is purely a SP problem, in MP they make more sense as costs actually matters.
I believe the best thing to do by CA would be to have additional 5 slots in each stack that works only for the Lord and 4 Heroes and the rest of 20 in the stack would be for the army. It would give the players bigger army composition without relying on more armies with bigger upkeep
@@user-br4qp4pw2o The actual solution would be to implement supply lines properly. In history, a region could only support so many soldiers fighting in it or adjacent hostile territory, and how high the number was depended on the regions economic prowess. If you wanted an army bigger than that, you needed to set up costly supply lines to the heartland, stock up before a campaign and take strategic breaks when your supplies are used up, etc. You would also need to actively recruit to refill casualties, but in total war they appear out of thin air while you're in the middle of a desert. Any system to imitate that dynamic even superficially would lead to a "soft" unit cap that allows cheap and easy to supply units to stay relevant throughout the entire game. It would also solve a bunch of other issues like the AI playing benny hill chases with you deep in your territory and would allow factions like the counts to feel truly unique by for example not allowing them to resupply at all and depending purely on raise dead while on actively campaigning.
You know the problem with desintegration? They have less leadership than daemons. So the desintegration damage deals 30% of max hp of the unit for free. Meaning the actual implementation of desintegration was obsolete since Warhammer 2 but people still going on that bandwagon of "No its fine"
Frankly, I think its criminal that you have to pay for them. The biggest fall off from WH2. I pretty much only use 2 spears to cover for large, but even then, thats begrudgingly. Just use zombies. Cheaper, hardier, just better for what you use them for. Skelle swords do kill slightly more than zambinos, but thats like suggesting a turkey baster is better at putting out a fire than an eye dropper. Technically true, but practically pointless.
Personally, and I don't pretend I think normally, I'll use a small group of skeletons to stiffen a zombie group, flank using better speed and try and use the somewhat improved stats to gut it out. I had a nail-biter battle with such a group against a Zhufbar settlement garrison - and nothing else. Dwarfs are just an unforgiving matchup against low tier units. But the idea's there. Basically, either way it's just a lot better if you have something in your army that can 'put away' a weakened enemy.
Paying them is a good chance imo, yes it's a nerd but they received other bonuses and now you don't have to spam stacks of skeletons everywhere to win, and using other units is actually good
@@raphaelantoine7331 Also the fact that them being free essentially invalidated the entire Vampire Counts roster, as you could simply bring more skeletons instead of whatever else you were going to bring. Don't know about you guys but I like varied armies over doomstacks.
They do march in such a synchronized way! Best part about them... but they're also usable for sure.
True, no discipline issues in that army.
I find the choice between zombies and skeletons often comes down to your planned support.
For an army planning on not supporting them at all, the hardiness of zombies compliments their lower cost.
For an amy planning around buffs, spells, auras, and the like, the higher stats of skeletons generally make them a much more functional baseline to work with.
Either way, the fact that I'm comparing them to zombies is all you need to know about their essential status to the Vampire Counts as an army. There's a variety of situational and preferrential reasons to pick one over the other, and in another army the unit wouldn't be great, but the Vampire Counts make it work with style.
The bone zone is a good place to be
Yes, it really is, once you get the techs adding up they really fulfill their potential of "I'm Helping" in a lot of situations. They're there for the 6th Undead award, not the star role.
Hmmm so empire swordsman get buffed when getting upgraded into skeleton warriors? Nice! I mean I still bro hope that the crumbling mechanic gets revisited at some point.
I feel personally like they've messed with crumbling so much over 3 game versions, it's fine if they leave them alone. Empire Swordsmen are better entity for entity and the new Empire Captain version can make them even better, but that's entity, per, entity. Skeletons getting 33% more entities does help if they're getting any love from you at all.
@@OffToBattle right now I tend to use zombies alongside ghuls in my fromline. But whenever there's a ror skeleton I will pick it up because I maxed out the redline buff anyway.
I know they're not completely trash, but you going over the VC units just highlights to me how hero dependent VC army comps are. I know some argue every army comp has hero dependencies but VCs feel especially so.
The roster benefits from and needs strong heroes. Skeletons are more of a grand strategic consideration, how to fill gaps you have because you can't have infinite heroes.. and so on. But in most situations you do benefit from being able to dial them in on short notice and get something similar to adequacy.
WE DEMAND SKELETON ARCHERS!
*Vampire Counts
Any skelly or zombie trash stack buffed with overcast dance macabre and healed by the necromancer aura + passive can hold the line and kill almost everything, the only danger are AOE spells i really like to combine skeleton spear-men from raise dead with the zombies on my blobs. the +24 melee attack makes a huge difference for those tar pits early game, i rather pick that first than summon zombies.
While I do like my skelly spams I can't deny that the humble Skeleton Warrior feels lacking and thats why I almost never recruit them, always trying to get the spear version instead. Not only for the better melee defence to hold the line but also because spears are slightly better in auto resolve too.
I'll get warriors if I feel I'm facing something where they're relevant. That's case by case.
@@OffToBattle Maybe some day we get a new Lord that specialises in our skelly bois and gives them something unique and interesting :D Btw. I just wanted to say that I realy liked your videos and the continued replies to so many comments! Thank you!
Iratus? Didn't know you had taste outside Furi and Warhammer but I keep being surprised
Lots but I try not to bother the algo with all my tastes, plus limits on time, but it was definitely the perfect time to mention "those" skeletons. Very entertaining.
you forgot the necromancer specific buffs that make em cheaper zombies and skeletons figured it should be mentioned
i love the skeleton's stop-motion style animations. takes me back to the 80's.
Skeletons and Zombies are where I feel CA fumbled quite a bit. While they're relatively different, that's purely in terms of MP only. In campaign, Skeletons should just be the usual tier 0 trash hired from main buildings, while zombies should be free and occupy separate army slots attached to each army (like a waagh), so VC armies can always bring along some free cannon fodder zombies without worrying about wasting extremely limited 20 unit limits on throwaway garbage. Same for Skaven's clanrat and slaves, the slaves should be free in a separate army.
Again, this is purely a SP problem, in MP they make more sense as costs actually matters.
I believe the best thing to do by CA would be to have additional 5 slots in each stack that works only for the Lord and 4 Heroes and the rest of 20 in the stack would be for the army.
It would give the players bigger army composition without relying on more armies with bigger upkeep
@@user-br4qp4pw2o The actual solution would be to implement supply lines properly. In history, a region could only support so many soldiers fighting in it or adjacent hostile territory, and how high the number was depended on the regions economic prowess. If you wanted an army bigger than that, you needed to set up costly supply lines to the heartland, stock up before a campaign and take strategic breaks when your supplies are used up, etc. You would also need to actively recruit to refill casualties, but in total war they appear out of thin air while you're in the middle of a desert.
Any system to imitate that dynamic even superficially would lead to a "soft" unit cap that allows cheap and easy to supply units to stay relevant throughout the entire game. It would also solve a bunch of other issues like the AI playing benny hill chases with you deep in your territory and would allow factions like the counts to feel truly unique by for example not allowing them to resupply at all and depending purely on raise dead while on actively campaigning.
@@majorfallacy5926 There is a mod for that its called "Crisis of Mortals, Mercs and Management"
It does all you sayd.
Iratus skeletons are poged out tho
You know the problem with desintegration?
They have less leadership than daemons.
So the desintegration damage deals 30% of max hp of the unit for free.
Meaning the actual implementation of desintegration was obsolete since Warhammer 2 but people still going on that bandwagon of "No its fine"
Frankly, I think its criminal that you have to pay for them. The biggest fall off from WH2. I pretty much only use 2 spears to cover for large, but even then, thats begrudgingly. Just use zombies. Cheaper, hardier, just better for what you use them for. Skelle swords do kill slightly more than zambinos, but thats like suggesting a turkey baster is better at putting out a fire than an eye dropper. Technically true, but practically pointless.
Personally, and I don't pretend I think normally, I'll use a small group of skeletons to stiffen a zombie group, flank using better speed and try and use the somewhat improved stats to gut it out. I had a nail-biter battle with such a group against a Zhufbar settlement garrison - and nothing else. Dwarfs are just an unforgiving matchup against low tier units. But the idea's there.
Basically, either way it's just a lot better if you have something in your army that can 'put away' a weakened enemy.
They're way faster than zombies, meaning they're much better at intercepting the flanks and dodging aoe spells.
Paying them is a good chance imo, yes it's a nerd but they received other bonuses and now you don't have to spam stacks of skeletons everywhere to win, and using other units is actually good
Good change* and nerf* not nerd. Freaking autocorrect
@@raphaelantoine7331 Also the fact that them being free essentially invalidated the entire Vampire Counts roster, as you could simply bring more skeletons instead of whatever else you were going to bring. Don't know about you guys but I like varied armies over doomstacks.