TwoSetViolin DEBUNK with Simple Logic a Fantasy Argument against WBMP easily
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2020
- Brett and Eddy of @twosetviolin recently made a video titled "How Violin Playing Has COMPLETELY CHANGED in the Last 60 Years" ( • How Violin Playing Has... ). In the video, they discuss the fact how much - in this case- violin playing has changed over the years. Every one of the great artists, they say, have all been taught and listened to the great artist of the past and still changed so much.
What it has to do with Historical Tempo Research? More than you might think.
With this simple logic they in fact correct one huge misconception that I guess is only brought up on this channel in the frame of tempo reconstruction: the chain of tradition through our teachers lead us directly back to how Beethoven, Chopin and many others played.
Especially the "early recordings" are used as one of the ultimate 'proves' to show that 19th century musicians played extremely fast as well, and that the only way to reconstruct authentic Metronome Marks would be to play faster, not slower as our research here points out.
But if all of that is true, why don't we play anymore (at all) like those late 19th century musicians that we claim have the (only) historical truth in their playing? It doesn't make sense to make that claim at one hand and still... play entirely differently, right?
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Never heard of the WBMP- the Whole Beat Metronome Practice- almost certainly the way Beethoven, Chopin and many others used their metronomes? Start here: • How Fast did Beethoven...
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That title either needs commas or I'm reading it wrong
None of the theory makes sense, don’t worry
@@niceguy8935 Why so aggressive? The title is worded strangely.
@@MichelleD2023 he even rephrased it to make sense as he calls the person asking an idiot 😂
It could be written as, "Twoset Violin debunk, with simple logic, a fantasy argument against WBMP, easily." That shows that, "with simple logic" is a parenthetical statement to qualify the main thought. And that parenthetical statement can be moved elsewhere and still make sense in the sentence. "Easily" is also another qualifier that isn't fully necessary to understand the statement.
Perhaps more straightforward and simply put, it could be written better as, "Twoset Violin easily debunk a fantasy argument against WBMP with simple logic."
Just imagine hes saying it with an accent
This is literally the most relevant someone like Wim Winters will ever be, in that he responds to TwoSetViolin
Chopin would not want you to play like him. He bragged that no one played like him, and he bragged about how his favorite student played like no one else (just like him, but he didn’t play like him). He also bragged that he never played the piece the same way twice. So play however the hell you want, especially if it’s like no one else. Chopin will back you up.
John Price Where did you get this information?
David Gonzalez-Herrera a book: Chopin in Paris
John Price Thank You
David Gonzalez-Herrera no problem!
@@jonathanDstrand why?
As the world runs out of time, the tempo speeds up.
"You would get murdered for playing like that"
Wim: "I know"
That was a pretty spicy edit
As a string player (and yes, part of the Viola Gang too) I adore TwoSet! I’m really interested in their take on WBMP.
Ling Ling can play the "impossible" Czerny and Moscheles metronome marks single-beat without trouble
@Danilo Croce "Ling Ling" is an imaginary character who can do basically anything. Ling Ling practices 40 hours every day, and everything is easy for Ling Ling to play. It's a meme from Twoset's channel.
Of course Ling Ling can do it even play it faster but I'm sure a lot of us we can't enjoy it the pieces or even understand the composers' intentions at that incredible speed.
Any thing is possible when you practice 40 hours a day
@@he1ar1 ... but how many do?
Ramón Alanis Ling Ling is a myth
TwoSetViolin's video is not about tempo but rather style (expressive) elements like vibrato, attack, use of glissandi, rhythmic fluidity etc. The tempos used by historic players in their video are very much in line (in the same range) with those of modern violinists. Not sure how this relates to WBMP. Early recordings of pianists also show changes to stylistic elements such as the use of flexible tempi, independence of melodic line from the accompaniment, less emphasis on "note perfect" performance etc but, there too, the tempi are within a comparatively small range in terms of difference from modern practice. If anything, these recordings show that while elements of expression change with time, tempo seems to be fairly stable over time - at least in the past century.
Which does not mean that the same was true from the first half of the 19th century towards the end thereof
Please watch the whole Video of Authentic Sound before stating that there is no connection! Ty
@@simonkruse1238 I did. The argument that students don't always play the same as their teachers has been made many times on this channel and is true. Nevertheless, it does not follow that if technique and expression change over time that tempo necessarily changes drastically as well (though it may). I am simply pointing out that the examples played on twoSetViolins videos clearly demonstrate that technique and expression have changed markedly over the past century but it also shows that tempo has not. This implies that early 20th century musicians who were recorded may very well have played with differences in expression and technique compared to early 19th century musicians (highly likely given changing tastes as well as developments in the instruments themselves) but says nothing, yay or nay, about tempo. To imply that drastic tempo change follows necessarily from changes in technique and expression would be a non sequitur.
@@untl01 Of course !!! It may have been true that there was a drastic speeding up of tempi during the 19th century . I am simply saying that the the stylistic changes noted in the TwoSetViolin video don't really support (or refute) this possibility. They show that you can have great changes in expression and technique all while observing the same (or similar) tempi.
Absolutely gabithemagyar! Even though many elements of performance have changed to one degree or another (instruments change, as do tastes) there has never been a complete disconnect in the line of musical succession from Beethoven's time to today. We have unbroken lines of one celebrated teacher to the next, as well as vast amounts of written critical literature, musical journals, personal diaries and letters, etc. If the plodding, unendurable tempos (the opening motif of the "Waldstein" Sonata, for example, in the AuthenticSound version is like Chinese water torture!) that are advocated by AuthenticSound were ever the norm, then where is the written evidence of a public outcry (either favorable or unfavorable) when suddenly music was twice as fast as it had been? Surely someone, among all of the reviewers, music journalists, letter writers, diarists, and teachers would at least have commented the fact! In the past century there have been plenty of tempo-interpretive conflicts: Toscanini vs. Furtwangler tempos, or Argerich vs. Brendel tempos, but never anything remotely as extreme as twice faster or twice slower (at least until now with AuthenticSound!). And the notion that tempos have doubled imperceptibly, due to accretion of gradually faster and faster playing is simply ludicrous. A cognate would be to assert that standard pitch has changed, over two centuries of instrumentalists seeking brighter and brighter timbres, not the slightly-less-than half-step upwards it has actually moved, but rather an entire octave (without anyone noticing until now)! Then there is the well-documented concert of December 1808 that saw the premieres of both the 5th and 6th symphonies, the 4th piano concerto, and the Choral Fantasy, as well as performances of "Ah Perfido!", two movements from the Mass in C, and an improvised Fantasia (probably later composed out and published as Op. 77). It famously (or infamously, considering the number of complaints) lasted almost 4 hours according to the myriad of still-existent writings discussing the matter. BUT, when you add the average performance durations of "modern" performance tempos of those works (I'm using Wikipedia for this, but you get a similar result if you go to various recordings and do you own averaging) you come up with a minute or two shy of three hours of actual music, which of course does not include the substantial Interval for refreshment between the first and second parts of the concert (well-documented), any time for applause and bows, or any time for stage changes of instrumentation, soloists, and chorus (and the two movements from the Mass were on opposite sides of the Interval, so the chorus would have had to enter and exit at least twice). Even taking into consideration the variable timings caused by Beethoven's improvisations (the cadenzas in the concerto, the g minor fantasy, and the solo lead-in to the Choral fantasy - although once again, written descriptions from throughout Beethoven's entire lifetime would tend to suggest that they were likely to run longer rather than shorter), we are still looking at a concert experience that would have taken at the very least, 3 and 1/2 hours at MODERN tempos. At AuthenticSound-postulated tempos, the duration would have been closer to 5 hours or even more! AuthenticSound is a pernicious musicologist's cult, based on the ridiculous premise that one misunderstood of-the-cuff remark in Schindler's book (based on recollections of a drunken party and a metronome that was not even the model Beethoven himself ever owned) is somehow more substantive than the premise that Beethoven and his contemporaries obviously knew the difference between a half-note, a quarter-note, and an eighth-note and were clear in their intentions when assigning a metronomic value to them!
Just watched the TwoSetViolin video, and gave it a big thumbs up. You are so right, Wim. Too bad some of the viewers find a simple point so hard to fathom. I had to laugh when they said "1962--none of you were even born," and then had to correct it. And yet that is the whole point. Times change so much, even within a single lifetime. As someone about to reach three quarters of a century this month, it is all so clear. One has to credit the two young violinists for their ability to recognize that. Without such an insight, which can only be drawn from your own life experience, even reading history cannot help you.
Great to read you Larry, as always!
Interpreting music is like the telephone game, every step adds his twist to the original message.
I was thinking about the telephone game watching this video
Every human endeavor historically suffers form this, sadly... more so than we even imagine. Even the scientific ones.
This is indeed a very good point :)
22 december 1808 Beethoven gave a concert in Vienna that consisted of symphonies 4 and 5, pianoconcerto 4, gloria of missa solemnis and 2 arias. The concert lasted 4 hours . So it is simple to determine the tempi that were used. Making allowance for pauses between numbers.
Christian Wouters It was actually symphonies 5 and 6.
What is your source of this statement?
@@LittleHarryBrother1 Friedrich Rochlitz
@@composerjalen In what source does Rochliz state this? And in your opinion, does the 4 hour timing lend it self better to WBPM or the mainstream understanding of tempi?
@@LittleHarryBrother1 Rochlitz wrote a review of the concert in Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung, a music periodical of the day. The concert fits the mainstream tempi, because if you use WBPM, you will find the pieces exceed four hours (without accounting for any intermission). The mainstream tempi causes the pieces to be shortened to a duration closer to three hours. Now take into account that there was an intermission, older instruments needed to be tuned far more frequently, and the Choral Fantasy had to be restarted due to an error (source: Ignaz von Seyfried). It's impossible to cram the music into a four hour period if you use WBPM, let alone everything else that happened during the concert. Finally, the historical concert has been recreated more than a dozen times, so you can witness multiple four hour long performances that use mainstream tempi. Opinion plays no part in accurately stating facts, I only seek to dissuade musicians from falling into the trap of whole beat theory.
Didn’t know Wim was a TwoSet watcher. This is quite I N T E R E S T I N G 😉🎶
He already used them in a video before.
Do you remember which one?
@@tom_szcz_org I think it was the one with the Tom Cruise thumbnail.
Yeah, you’re right. I have to rewatch a few earlier videos though. Or do some memory exercises 😂
Opportunism
Very interesting video. Glad you met Brett and Eddie.
I see where he is coming from, but there is one thing I don't understand. Would 18th and 19th century orchestras and singers really perform entire Mozart operas in Wim's suggested tempo? I don't think people would have sat through 6 to 8 hours of opera music back in the day. I also doubt that the singers would have had the stamina required to do this, especially for the slower movements where they must sustain long passages.
Good point
Earlier musical activities were way longer because it was more valuable than nowadays, now Spotify gives you acces to an infinite amount of short timed music, therefore you would not endure even 2 hours of music(or if you would, then you are not obliged to sit in a church). I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but the way we perceive music is definitely different than pre-recording times.
There are a lot of historical facts that show how earlier social activities that included music were a lot longer (like masses, operas, meetings)
Also, operas had intermezzos, many sub-activities that made the thing more endurable.
People did sit through those operas
Dude we have newspaper evidence of some motzars and other debuts that it was single beat considering the duration of the concerts. We have recorded documents of many performances and their times. To stick to a idea that yes some number are way to fast to do physically for most people today is one thing but to propose a theory that wbmp brings out compositional genius is the stupidest thing ever. Imagine Chopins slow pieces going for longer than we play them. The melodic ideas would die. Wim just can't face the facts that composers didn't play the tempos they themselves wanted to play at. Chopin himself says I never play a piece the same way twice.
@@j2bigd590 They still sit through them but hard to believe that they would have regularly sat through 6-8 hours a go. And Mozart's operas aren't even the longest ones.
I quite enjoyed this video, Wim. Great work!
Unapologetic 2Set fan here, to me, they're the ideal musicians, they have fun, they respect everyone, and also they made their own identity in the business.
Will there be a colab? Can we get hyped for that? Would be a dream come true!
The 2 Mil drop floored me. It was like hearing the violin greats of the past, I never thought I would find something like that again.
They basically have no ego, they are extremely increadible but they humble themselves. That is a big reason why I love them so much.
Well, they respect everyone except maybe violist. Lol
Yes, they are just like those two funny guys from a student orchestra you studied with 😊 I love them
This is kinda missing the point of the video. It was talking about the musicality and performance aspects like expressiveness, I don't think tempo was their intended point
The point is that things have changed more than one might realize
@@makytondr8607 yep I agree
Fantastic video, thank you for making and sharing your thoughts and knowledge.
Just inscribed to your very interesting channel.
Wow I _never_ expected to see TwoSet on this channel.
I know right, they're like a cancer that is spreading everywhere.
@@TXCrafts1 Wouldn't call them a cancer. They have probably invented 90% of the classical music community.
@@mantictac if that is the case I personally find that very sad but I can understand why some people would like them.
@@TXCrafts1 They were at least one of the largest contributing factors to classical music's growth over the past few years. Why do you find it so sad? In their more toned down videos they can be pretty funny. I'm less surprised to see them on this channel and more so as a justification for an argument.
@@mantictac some one did explain this to me yesterday and I did forget they do have a serious side and great respect for the music. The only thing that dose annoy me is the fanbase always spewing the stupid memes but I just need to look past that and see the true love for the music
What if you go back and see (hear) that you are wrong?
Hi Wim, bit of constructive feedback: for me the recent thumbnails are too cluttered. When I see them along with other videos in my feed, there is too much going on in that small space and I don't want to click. This is a good example.
But it looked to me like the 2 set style thumbnail, that's why I clicked lol, and got a little confused for a second, too!
It looks busy because every single icon in the thumbnail is a bright primary or secondary color. Of course it will look crowded if every word and arrow is highlighter yellow.
A Dr. Aryton in the 1820s complained about the length of the Eroica. How long did he say it lasted: three-quarters of an hour. I suppose the clocks ran differently back then.
Very interesting the image of the dog at the end. I have cats. I have observed they sometimes do WB and sometimes SB.
I just arrived here, and it says “Premieres in 40 hours”!
Wow, I think someone from Ling Ling heaven must be sending you a sign lol
AMAZING
InTeResTinG
Ling Ling asked to premiere 40 hours later because he didn’t practice yet.
That will be 80 hours in WBMP
I've actually been learning to play Massenet's "Meditation" (from Act 2 of his opera THAIS) on the piano. So last week, when it suddenly came on the radio, of course it got my attention. I think it was played by Maxim Vengerov, the "modern" violinist mentioned in this video--and he played so loudly (or the volume was boosted in the studio) that not only did he almost drown out the accompanying piano, but it hardly even sounded like a piano! I honestly thought it was a harp or a string orchestra until I heard the announcement at the end. I took this recording as evidence that classical music is becoming more and more about the performer's technique than the composer's emotion. How MY piano solo version will sound when it's finished, I have absolutely no idea...
Unfortunately, Massenet’s Meditation from Thais has become a popular showpiece/encore for many soloists to butcher during a recital. I hate a lot of recitals for this reason, that the big-headed soloists play way too loud, drowning out the piano accompaniment!
I hate it when I see the term “Violin sonata” instead of “Sonata for Violin and Piano” on a recital program as well, as to me that should mean that the sonata is to be performed unaccompanied (A.la Bach, Ysaye).
If you played the Meditation like Vengerov, as a concertmaster for a leading opera orchestra, you would get absolutely murdered by critics!
Having heard Vengerov playing this live, it was probably a bad recording or a studio probem
@@TheWeon001 Bad audio setup happens too often.
I think it's ridiculous for anyone to believe that just because someone trained under a certain teacher, they automatically play like them. I studied piano for 12 years with the same teacher - she had many long-term students, and none of us played with the same style.
PS: I like your dog.
Exactly. Among organists, those who learned Bach once performance practices changed from "perfect legato" to slightly separated llikely learned from teachers who either struggled or failed entirely to change their performance practices to match the newer scholarship. This means they developed different playing styles.
The influences of teachers seem a lot more clear in composition rather than playing style.
I believe in the value of every note especially during practice
If you can play it quickly you can play it slowly 👀
You're the one who is saying Czerny is a flawless source for beethoven's tempi and that the only acceptable speed is either exactly what he said or half of that. Yet you are happy to assume nothing was passed on when it suits you?
No, you can't jump back and forth between such extreme binary positions whenever convenient. The reality is somewhere in the middle. That's why it doesn't seem at all credible that von Bulow would have basically doubled everything (by switching to whole different systems of giving metronome marks, in a system changeover that no evidence anywhere points to). If your theory stood up, we'd at least expect to see some remnants rather than none.
I didn't say anywhere that early recordings are without value, quite the opposite. But there is a context we have to reconstruct. In their cases, the context is that of a 19th century, focused on technique and speed, and indeed leading to musicians playing very fast, much faster than a century before. Czerny did the same thing: he wrote the etudes that transformed the pianists of future generations. But it is a different aspect to take his editions and see what he wrote there in function of the composer, not of him as an artist. Moscheles writes about that pretty clear to have given tempi for Beethoven as he remembers Beethoven took, he refrained from giving his own tempi. See, it is all there, just open your mind for it!
@@AuthenticSound I didn't either say or imply you said early recordings are without value. Where did that come from? I thought your argument was that Czerny's etudes are all meant to be very slow? If so, he transformed nothing much.
The problem with these theories is they lack any credible progression and steps. Within your theory Czerny was part of none. Presumably von bulow too and then the Liszt pupil lamond suddenly went wild? It doesn't stand up well. There should be much better evidence and at least some sense of either a slowly changing lineage, or really clear evidence of a truly violent change over.
People nowadays are tending to play a lot faster. However, few even approach norms of the early twentieth century. Someone who had no recordings and merely words might assume that people today are obviously universally far quicker than the likes of Rachmaninoff and cortot. They aren't though. It goes to show that extremely vague historical references to speed increase don't default to the most extremist theory being correct. You need much better evidence of the progression.
This argument is just yet another example of treating ambiguity, that doesn't give any particularly strong indicators, into proof.
I bet this video will be sacrilegious.
Lamentable
AmAziNG!
L A M E N T A B L E
I recently listened to a mainstream performance of a Beethoven sonata (at a ridiculously fast tempo). I had noticed that such speeds irked me before, but after listening to yours and Alberto's performances, terms such as 'sacrilegious' fit those break-neck-speed performances quite nicely. I'll admit I don't respect the metronome numbers most of the time myself, but I do try to keep the music intelligible. Ever since I found your channel, I feel like I've substantially brought down my own tempi... Not only is it more comfortable playing that way, but also sounds more profound, deeper.
Carl Friedberg and Ilona Eibenschutz were direct students of Clara Schumann and Brahms. They recorded extensively the music of Brahms and Schumann. Clara and Brahms both championed Eibenschutz as “the best student” of theirs, and Brahms entrusted the London premier of his op. 118 pieces to Eibenschutz. There is a direct link between the teachers and the music in this case, unless one were to argue that Clara (who had an intimate knowledge of her husband’s works) drastically re-interpreted them when she taught. Therefore, I think these two students DO give an accurate representation of how Brahms and Schumann were performed in their time. I’m curious to know what you think.
In the write up to this audio of Eibenschütz playing Brahms there is a quote that Clara Schumann complained to Brahms privately that Eibenschütz played too fast (I have not verified the source): ua-cam.com/video/XV6ji84-8IA/v-deo.html
Otherwise, I have to say the claim that students always play like their teachers is just ludicrous. There's no logic in that assertion. Sure, some things would likely be similar but many teachers are probably comfortable nurturing whatever unique talents and style each student has, and indeed may be more interested in preparing them for the musical age they would grow up in, rather than the age the teacher learned in.
Bach is often played on modern pianos that barely resemble the instruments he played himself. At some point, the student played a different instrument to the one the teacher learned on. If we change such aspects of performance so fundamentally, why not speed?
This does not prove anything one way or the other, but logic seems to suggest either could be true: either we play at a similar speed or a different one to historical practice. This is not necessarily a result of who a modern player was taught by.
Philippe Marie yes I am aware of this, but too fast compared to who? Carl Friedberg, her other admired student? Ilona’s tempi are certainly faster than Carl’s but it is not a speed difference of single beat to double beat, not even close. Both fall within single beat. Additionally, if Ilona’s tempi were single beat when Clara intended for Robert’s music to be in double beat, she would not trust her as a great pianist, capable of continuing the legacy of Robert’s music. And Brahms would not trust her with the premier of his music. Additionally, even if you want to discount Ilona, there is still Carl Friedberg, who plays the music very much not in double beat, and has a seal of approval from both Brahms and Clara. Your point that players play differently than their teachers is of course true, however studying the music of Brahms or Schumann with the composer or the wife of the composer is something quite unique. It is a directory link, and of course the student will not be a note perfect reproduction of how the composer would play it, but something as massive as playing the piece half as slow as it was intended, would certainly not be a difference you would get from the composer To the student. Variations in rubato, dynamics, articulation yes, but playing it at half it’s intended speed? Brahms and Clara would not stand for that. Especially given that we know that Brahms trusted Eibenschutz for the London PREMIER (the first experience a public would have with the works). Seeking the composer of a piece for lessons on his music is very distinct from just copying your piano teacher’s individual style that they inherited from a tradition.
youre right. Maybe the tempo is slightly different, but not 50%
ua-cam.com/video/u91uFQ-WjAI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=louiu This guy even heard chopin play...
Everything you say is quite sensible - in that they may well have played at very similar speeds to their teachers. However, I'm just saying they also may not have.
Mr Winters appears to back up with at least some corroborating evidence that there was a shift from a tradition of playing much slower to one of playing much faster (I think at the moment we don't know if it was all composers or some... but it seems that in some cases at least, he has a point. And at the very least, whatever speed they played at there is still the question of why metronome markings read "traditionally" don't match modern performance practice.
If there was a move towards speed, then the students of the teachers that grew up in the earlier slower tradition played faster and possibly radically faster when they grew up. In other words, sometimes there is continuity and sometimes there is change. Just being a student of a teacher is evidence neither in favour of or against either of those possible cases - absent a very detailed study of a specific case.
I guess I just disagree that the teacher student link is strong evidence either way. But I equally agree what you say is plausible.
Philippe Marie I think this goes beyond simply a normal teacher/student relationships however. Let’s take Clara Schumann first. Clara was steadfastly dedicated to a faithful preservation of her husband’s works. She was fiercely critical of those who she thought strayed away from what Robert had intended for his music (I.e. when she expressed anger over how Liszt played her husband’s works, sacrificing musical taste for audience applause). Clara is repeatedly quoted as having told her students that “no musician can be great who tried to project his own personality instead of faithfully reproducing the emotions and thoughts of the composer.” (This source is Kathleen Rountree: “The short lived career of Ilona Eibenschutz, American Music Teacher 43 no.5 (1994)) It is not logical then that she would when teaching Robert’s music to her students tell them to play his music twice as fast as he ever would have wanted just for the sake of being modern. Additionally, we have yet to talk about Jospeh Joachim. Joachim knew Schumann and Brahms. We also have recordings of Brahms’ Hungarian dances as played by Joachim: clearly not in double beat tempi. Joachim was the violin mouth piece of Brahms, and knew the composer for nearly all of his adult life. I think his recordings can be trusted to be authentic. Joachim was asked to be recorded as a great violinist, and asked to play Brahms on those recordings because he was the most authentic living interpreter of Brahms’ music. I think it is daily safe to say that Brahms is conclusively single beat. This then would also prove that Eibenschutz and Friedberg are correct in their tempi indications. If you would want to argue otherwise, you would have to argue either that Joachim, in recording for posterity chose to ignore his 70 years of violin playing experience and suddenly speed up to twice the speed of how he had always played pieces for 70 years, or that Brahms wanted his violin works in single beat and his piano music in double. I think you can agree the first is largely impossible, especially as Joachim already had arthritis in his hands at the time of the recordings. With the latter, you would run into huge trouble when you try and play a piano trio. We then have to ask, did these students (Ilona and Friedberg) adhere to the tempi Brahms wanted, but completely disregard the tempi that Clara wanted them to follow for her husband’s music? I think most certainly not. There is no evidence of Clara complaining about this, as she most definitely would have.
I have a quick question, if all the tempi are significantly slower than we would know them today, are there any examples or music played at what would be a modern day presto/prestissimo? When did the shift take place moving from those older definitions of allegro to a modern one. I have never heard about WBMP and it is fascinating but it opens up so many questions!
This made my day. It is taking me from my 40 hours of practicing though.
Not practicing? Lamentable!
The way tempo has been passed down from teacher to student, through generations, is the well known "broken telephone" effect. How come we accept the broken telephone effect for almost anything, but some people don't want to think the broken telephone effect might apply to tempo?
I find with my own compositions, sometimes I like to play them slowly and at other times very quickly, even twice as fast. Some music sounds good over a wide range of tempos. I would not be surprised if some composers from the past shared similar ideas. Maybe they were not so strict with there tempos as printed markings might imply. Generally, I would loath to write a tempo mark that meant any deviation from it was incorrect.
The Vienense tradition was strict with Tempo. Reported in 1821 music magazines, even by Beethoven himself. The metronome was adopted for music, because of such strictness. A recent video about this was posted in this channel, have you been watching? No need to assume when you have facts already.
@@surgeeo1406 I must have missed that video. I'll check it out. Thanks
That drawing at the back is so cute haha
A little observation regarding 'too fast:' If a song or tune is sung too fast, it becomes comic. Try slowing down, for example, 'I Am the Captain of the Pinafore!'
Let alone temporal changes, I think modern musicianship and skill is leaps and bounds beyond what was prevalent just 60 or so years ago. I was hesitant to express that opinion until seeing this video.
I enjoy how you play Beethoven!! By the way, how many languages do you speak?
Thank you. "Speaking" is too much said, my mother tongue is Dutch, English is what I used on UA-cam, French and German are ok too, but wouldn't be good enough to make these videos with
I hope Brett and Eddy make a Reaction Video about this.
But please no war 😒
I just discussing this with a student today. The context was how Bartok played his Sonatina, as compared to how the Canadian Royal Conservatory of Music would expect students to play it.
Jérémy I fear not. The examiners seem to be very narrow minded and don’t accept other styles. I suspect that the RCM is very rigid in enforcing “their style”.
Where can I see the full videos of the pieces in this video?
It's terrible slow motion... I'm certain this is an entirely unfounded false assumption, placing far too much emphasis on metronome markings
I think you'll find a piece of music written allegro - essentially 'fast' and 'upbeat' without any metronome markings would still instinctively be played a similar kind of speed by any musician, with roots in biology, the natural pace of our movements as animals.
Beethoven was a human being, not a sloth...
p.s. as a composer myself I regularly experience the common phenomenon that one imagines their music a bit faster than musicians actually perform it. Beethoven was very intense, and his prestos were clearly very presto indeed in his imagination!
As someone learning to compose music I find it ridiculous that wim argues on playing whole beat shows the compositional beauty of the piece. The tempo yes can dictate the flow and ebb of a piece or melody but it's colors are generally thru harmony. And harmony doesn't care if you play I-v fast or slow. Nothing changes. His idea of humanizing them by saying they played as sloe than a person with 3 months of experience vs trying to justify their immortality thru composition because of slow tempo is contradictory
Now I hope @TwoSetViolin makes a reaction video of this, it´s gonna be awesome
I was recommended this video no doubt because of my history of watching TwoSet's videos...and I have to say, after watching a number of your other videos, thanks for the laugh! I don't mean I find your opinions laughable, I mean I find it hilarious how offended people get by arguing about this subject in the comments. I was always vaguely aware of Beethoven's "impossible metronome markings" and the interpretive solution that you have suggested on this channel as well. I was also aware that this meant Beethoven's understanding of his works had to differ widely from our modern taste, either by being weirdly faster or weirdly slower. I find your explanation to be slightly more convincing although not 100%. (The biggest problem I have with your argument is the complete lack of discussion of musicians at some point in history changing the way they used metronome markings.) But either case undeniably means that something has hugely shifted in our understanding and feeling of this music. And that's okay! The fact that people are so offended by these ideas just goes to show arrogance of our time period. A little humility goes a long way. Thanks for sharing.
Can anyone tell me what is playing from 4:56?
The crucial question is not addressed. That is, OUGHT we to be playing just as the composer would have done? The sane answer is a resounding NO. It may be interesting to know just how Bach would have played one of his fugues or Liszt his sonata, but only in so far that they suggest possibilities for us now - not as a guide to "correct" performance. For us, the Hammerklavier is not just what Beethoven envisioned - it is also the 200 years of evolving performance that have elapsed since, which we cannot escape. Music IS what it means to us, NOW. Authenticism can offer us possibilities but should never be the goal. That was the terrible mistake of Leonhardt, Goebbel, and similar non-musicians.
That first question is up to you to answer. We believe the most beautiful performance would be that of the composer's idea. What we do here is reconstructing the meaning of the authentic MMs, all the rest is part of a world of free speech (and interpretation)!
I really hope somebody sensible puts this stuff to bed :-) I have no moral problem with slow performances (not my taste, but taste is personal) but I really dislike disingenuous arguments. I've seen nothing but the latter in every video of Wim and in the comments from his supporters. Can those who support 'double beat' please explain how the fact that the shortest time estimated by Wim for the 1808 concert (ignoring breaks and applause etc ... ) is still longer than the recorded times of recorded concerts.
check
Because we study metronome marks here, or the authentic tempi, not the performance practice of today that does not take those tempi (because they are too fast)
@@AuthenticSound Thank you for the reply, but this does not answer my question. If you play the 1808 concert according to whole beat speeds (and I don't know why you would - the MM numbers you need to use were written over a decade after the concert) the time required exceeds 4 hours (by quite a lot). We do not know what speed the pieces in the 1808 concert were actually played at, but this simple observation (a WB interpretation of the concert lasts longer than the time provided in the historical record) proves quite clearly that the pieces in the 1808 concert were not played at a speed consistent with the whole beat interpretation of the later MM indications. This is basic maths. I have not yet heard this issue addressed (other than by simple assertions that 'we use/study metronome marks', which does not answer the question) and am still hoping for clarification. Yours in hope ...
Listen, I really hope I don't have to go all the details here of the video again, that you seem to simply ignore. That's fine with me, but will lead us to nowhere. I didn't put the 1808 concert front and center as a master piece to debunk the WBMP, others did. And that it backfired is... well to be expected. Anyone with a few grams of open-mindedness will see something is definitely wrong with MMs read in SBT and definitely right in WBMP. No wonder historical facts adapt to the truth and not to what people today would want to see.
@@AuthenticSound Thanks for the reply. I'm still not sure you have answered the question though. How exactly did the 1808 concert argument backfire? Your carefully calculated timings for the pieces in the concert add up to more than 4 hours even before time allowed for applause and an interval. How then can the concert be said to support WBMP? I'm confused ...
@Martin Mussiett He (or she) is trolling.
Does this not, therefore, refute your argument about Czerny's metronome markings for Bach's works? Czerny was temporally as far removed from Bach as we are from say Jascha Heifetz
Yeah but Wim is focused on the mm by Czerni. He is no saying that Bach played at this speed (which is possible) he is saying that Czerni wanted you to play at that speed. And Beethoven.
His entire livelyhood now depends on his interpretation of Czerny's indications. It's unlikely he can ever afford to admit being wrong.
I had to unfollow this guy a year or so ago because of his arrogance. He is actually quite rude in replies, is always right (at least he thinks he is) and does not tolerate criticism at all well. He presents himself as the person with the most knowledge re tempi, etc., but truly, he just comes off as dull and arrogant.
You had me at time travel.
Hi Wim, I don't know if you read the comments, but I'm curious about a couple of research angles--you may have already covered them, so forgive me if you have: 1. Are there any records of how long Beethoven's or Mozart's concerts took? If so, it might be possible to do back-of-the-envelope calculations (taking encores into account) that estimate how fast each piece/movement was performed. 2. This I bet you've covered, though I haven't yet found any videos that mention this: How did composers back then indicate metronome markings for movements in 6/8? Did they specify the metronome marking per eighth note, or per dotted quarter? (It would be challenging to practice with a metronome under WBMP if the indications were for dotted quarters.) Thanks!
What a great question! I hope Wim answers. Ill also add to this some bonus doubts, hoping Wim will address them too. As a pole, im of course seeing Chopin as a Saint. What about (Chopin, Bach or anyone else) writing dance forms? I could argue vividly, that dances have maintained rock solid tempos even throughout centuries. If you perform any dance (with Dancers) even slightly out of tempo, you get so slapped in the face, you’ll really study the tempo up to few BPM. So there should be a possibility to clarify.
Other thing is, composers then were great performers and improvisers. Sounds to todays players incredible, but, we forget what huge repertoire, in many styles, thanks to communication, all the players have to master. Composers back then had the luxury to have enough time to master the common style of today, just like bebop players had it in the 40s, and wasn’t to much distracted by different styles, so mastering could very well lead to extreme tempi. I had a friend during study, who was a gifted composer studying percussion. He always struggled , because the other students played way faster, with more technical development. What he did for his Master? He just wrote a piece. Nobody could play it as fast as him. Nobody came even close to the deep ness of his interpretation, although some students tried this piece later. He wrote it straight to his own abilities and got at the end the best possible grade. Are you as fascinated by this as i am?
@@ml-ei3nz So, I appreciate your perspective, but I want to make clear that I'm not opposed to Wim's ideas. I'm a little turned off by the combative nature of debate on this issue, both from Wim and from some of his detractors. But I think Wim makes some very compelling arguments in this video regarding our resistance to the unfamiliar, and regarding our lack of direct knowledge of performance styles from Beethoven's--or Mozart's, or Mendelssohn's, etc.--time. I'm not an expert on this topic, but it seems that there are cogent arguments on both sides of the debate (which makes the topic even more mysterious and interesting). I raised the questions that I did, because I thought they were reasonable questions from the point of view of basic skeptical inquiry. And I think the concert length angle might be a useful research approach. I also hope Wim responds to me! :)
@@rufescens i am absolutely with you there, and exactly like you, I try to bring reasonable counter arguments against. initially I liked Wims idea a lot. I concider myself on neither side.
What I had problems with, was that nearly every video of Wim, almost religiously, addresses at some point this tempo issue.
Thanks
@@ml-ei3nz I guess it's his current raison d'etre 😄
1. He has. An instance frequently mentioned as disproving WBMP is the concert of 22 December 1808 by Beethoven himself; Wim discusses it here: ua-cam.com/video/gsntpykv1jQ/v-deo.html
2. The answer is _tactus inaequalis_. Wim and Lorenz Gadient explain it here: ua-cam.com/video/d4Ke5nvftZg/v-deo.html
Prof Peter Schickele, renowned musicologist, has long ago solved this riddle in his famous volume The Historical Role of Cats in 18th and 19th century metronome markings
pieces used in this please?
Sounds a lot like 19th century golf courses. They were never intended to be devoured by exceptional athletes with modern technology. I wonder what the Star Wars theme will sound like in 50 years!? Doubled or tripled? :-)
It won't change because there are recordings of the original music.
@@pjbpiano That's true.
It might change. Composers change how they want their works performed. One of my organ professors wrote a lot of music based on groupings of notes rather than cleanly defined 4/4, 6/8... meters. Many of his early compositions also had no time signature at all. He has stated that the way he performs those pieces has changed. Where he used to group notes one way, he now groups them differently.
The performance of the Star Wars theme has changed slightly even with Williams conducting. So it will change, just not as much as it has in the past.
I thought it was funny what they presented as "old school" when there are recordings by Ysaye and Joachim to be "old school." It was interesting to hear them, though the crack about wind players was mean. Some of the finest musicians I've known have played wind instruments. I stopped playing without the score because given the choice to play from the composers' instructions or my very fallible recollection of the score, I'd rather rely on what the composer notated. Gilbert Kalish was the one who convinced me that was OK.
They have fun with everyone, including other violinists. I don't think it was said in a cruel spirit.
@TwoSetViolin need to collab with Wim. Pleaseeeeeeee. The Beethoven sonatas.
No ...
TwoSet are broad minded. Wim is not. He is focused on only one (very restricted) corner of music (uniquely interpreted tempo indications from the18th and 19h centuries) .
Listen to Tony Halstead (ua-cam.com/video/FD8zSo-FX5M/v-deo.html) to see how amazing real period reconstructions at decent speeds can be, without the daft restro-reinterpretations of Wim. (I'm nothing as a horn player but, nevertheless, I can't imagine how awful this concertino would sound at double (whole) beat speed... )
Wim, if you really think double beat is true , can you explain how this Weber piece would work, in terms of both the horn payer's breathing and also the broader musical shape of the piece?
Please do not ignore or delete this post, but rather answer the question ...
I welcome discussion and debate - and I hope you and your supporters will welcome this too ... :-)
Thank you!
Ok. Random thought but ive been listening to videos at 1.25-1.75x and at first it sounds fast but if you get ‘into’ it you hardly notice its fast until you get distracted or ‘back to reality’ that can give you a reference that reminds you its faster. Maybe letting the music ‘take you away’ slows our perception of time?!?
Playing fast is like eating fast.
Yes, it will give you indigestion.
@@johnb6723 ua-cam.com/video/NQD-N6gkCzQ/v-deo.html
The representation we create it’s stronger than the real thing it’s been represented.
beethoven just wanna say: lol, and go practice!
My problem with TwoSetVioln is the definition of classical music it's self, one country might have a different definition of what music is classical or is based in the folk tradition. For example, Strass's Tales from the Vienna Woods originally had a zither solo in it which is an instrument actually used in Tiroleian folk music, even the xylophone went by its Tiroliean name Holzschet's Glachner during the time Mozarts The Magic Flute and even Mendelson wanted to write for the Holzschet's after he herd a Tirolian/ Jewish musician play Paganini's 24th Caprice. We as musicians should not be a slave to the music; the instrument is how we express ourselves and the music is our guide on how to express ourselves. When I play the William Bell arrangement of Frollicher Landmann by Schuman as a tubist I play it with flow and expression thinking about different sounds such as cello sound in the slow section, emphasis on certain notes, and in the run of the piece, I think about how a bel canto singing would do the run. Then I improvise the piece and play Red Wing in the style of Spike Jones; it's a surprise you save after for the audience. Assimilation exists in Music Education and has done horrible damage to the expression of individuals and their music culture, I grew up in a German American family not hearing Volksmisk or getting a chance to play Volksmusik as a tubist because I'm Autistic and a woman. All my cousins did dance recitals and none of them went to concerts where I played my tuba and only two of my cousins learned how to play an instrument and read music. My only exposure to good Volksmusik as iTunes, UA-cam, and a CD; Die Beste aus Melodian Die Berge and it sounds different from The Larence Welk Show.
Please check out my blog
tubafrau.blogspot.com/2020/
Music was always reflecting the time when it was composed. But today, we use music written in the past to reflect our time. We use Beethoven, Chopin, Mendelssohn and etc. as some kind of a gateway to expressing our own emotions, and as a result, we get "modernised" interpretations of that music. To be honest, I don't really care if the interpretation of some random piece is historically accurate or not, as long as I feel the emotion in it and as long as the interpretation doesn't ruin the beauty of the piece.
I don't follow this header. What is this video about?
Wasnt Beethoven against exact time signatures? More wanting the speed of the piece to depend on the mood and the situation?
What, are there no records of concert run times extant anywhere? Find out what was played and how long the concert was observed to take, and there you go. You have your answer as to how fast/slow the performers took a given piece or group of pieces, within a reasonable margin.
There are many of these. Countless concert programs and adverts in newspapers from the 1800s that say performance of piece A will last 3 hours. Its always pretty much the same length as today's performances of the same pieces
andrew korsakov Well then, there ya go. That completely debunks the double beat theory. You can't take the tempo twice as slow and have a performance end up the same length. It's impossible!
@@ryano.5149 yeah exactly. I havent seen wim actually give a response to this explanation other than blocking people who comment it on his videos lol
@@andrewkorsakov2631 Well, that's unfortunate. Overall, the discussion of the evolution of performance practices IS a worthwhile discussion and I'm sure there are commonly accepted tempos today that are slightly slower and slightly faster than what would be acceptable at the time. I can get on board with debating about a few bpms and what that effect has on the music. However, this whole double beat theory seems like an odd hill to chose to die on...
@@ryano.5149 This whole talk reads as if only one person is authoring it...
Secretly ling ling is just a normal human who uses double beat
I really hope somebody sensible puts this stuff to bed :-) I have no moral problem with slow performances (not my taste, but taste is personal) but I really dislike disingenuous arguments. I've seen nothing but the latter in every video of Wim and in the comments from his supporters. Can those who support 'double beat' please explain how the fact that the shortest time estimated by Wim for the 1808 concert (ignoring breaks and applause etc ... ) is still longer than the recorded times of recorded concerts.
check
Sorry - I replied to the wrong post ... apologies :-)
Haha YES! We talked about the video in one of your premiere chats a when it came. Even with recordings the "tradition" has changed so much in just a few decades. But how could it be? People would have written endlessly about it! ;D
fear
To be honest, I sometimes think when people think like this... Are you really a musician if you are more preoccupied with the composer's intentions than your own? I honestly feel the answer is yes, and unfortunately the classical world has too many "instrumentalists" and people obsessed with dead people that actually were invested into creating music, instead of using the term musician despite not having any of the real traces of musicianship, like being creative and free spirited, having good taste, not copying other people's views and interpretations of music, being involved and interested in new music (perhaps the biggest sin you see "classical musicians doing", etc. I know a bit or two about beethoven, and I seriously think he'd shit his pants in today's world, because of how accessible music is and tools, how far theory and research have come, etc, etc. I guarantee you he'd be super interested in 20th century classical music, and he'd value, I don't know, Tyler the Creator, more than any pseudo classical musician now, in fact, I think he'd value Tyler more than almost any composer from his era, if he got acostumed to our modern culture of course... And I have no doubt about that tbh and neither should you. The first think he would say is "Wtf are you doing with your lives, why are you discussing tempi and mostly unimportant details about my music instead of being musicians and making your own or be involved with new music?" That's the first thing he'd certainly tell, I arrest my case.
ticks me off so much to see them blatantly disrespect Elman like that. I reject modern playing and i think its bland and boring. tasteless and lifeless. music has become a technical competition of who can execute shifting and detache the best. the soul of music has completely gone and been replaced by technical machines.. you wont find many musicians probing deep into music or spending hours on an 8 bar phrase to find some kind of truth in the composition or phrasing and instead everyone is sounding the same. If you are too individual like Elman you get put down today. sickening. and yes, i don't have any favorite living violinist. all my heroes died. that is saying a lot. social media is a blessing and a curse in that it can give any unqualified person a platform to voice their ignorance like 2set.
Actually i think social media is more a blessing, since, i bet, many “qualified” are amused about the ignorance and childish cynicism of those two. I just hope for them, they grow up without too big mental depression about themselves when they realize how silly they were. To me the youth is blessing and curse in one.
My old Jewish friend said that there's a proverb in his tradition that says "Youth is wasted on the young". And what I understand about Judaism is that wisdom is always preferable to everything else. Neat to ponder millennia - old sayings.
They did not disrespect Elman. On the contrary, they stated their respect for the performers of his generation, and how much they listened to those performers. Their shocked reactions are meant to convey to the uninitiated - those who have literally no understanding of music history or classical music - just how much tastes and practices have changed, as you stated. They said "I would get murdered for playing like that" but they most definitely did not say "I would murder someone for playing like that".
@@reepicheepsfriend go back and watch the video again at 9:30 and tell me this is not blatant disrespect. I am not here to argue and no other opinion will convince me otherwise. sorry Leah. giving a compliment and saying that you respect the previous generation does not then make it ok to turn around and bash them. its like giving someone a plate of cookies and then punching them in the face right after. I did give them the plate of cookies so its ok to punch them after all right? that is your logic. there are better and more RESPECTFUL ways to make comparisons and make a point to people who are absolutely clueless about classical music.
@@gnatural I am going to assume you don't watch too many of TwoSet's videos. Almost comic over-reactions is their staple. It's how they keep the interest of their non-classically-trained audience. The fact that Eddy called it a slap in the face doesn't mean he disliked the interpretation. It means it was surprising and unexpected. In fact there is another piece that the two often compare to "boxing" (they will demonstrate by punching the air) and they clearly enjoy and appreciate the interpretation. If you really want to understand how they appreciate music I recommend watching this video. They clearly state that the performances are their favorites and they highly enjoy and respect all of the interpretations: ua-cam.com/video/7HO0QO_H9Bs/v-deo.html
Ha! 😇👍
Destroyed with FACTS and LOGIC!!!!11!!1!1!!!!
There was an old joke that certain pianists were students of Lezitivshki... In every case...they played like everyone within earshot of their playing wished they were deaf...
I play Brahms with the play button of UA-cam
Why a entire video about music and WBMP since they talked about violin evolution?
go figure that out 🤖
Did I just get click jebaited?
I wouldn't assume Beethoven was always logical and consistent. He was an artist and not a musicologist kind of how an author or poet is not a linguist. Maybe there was a tolerant attitude towards different interpretations at different speeds even back then, and not a dogmatic approach.
Simple logic to disprove Doublebeat theory.
What year did the way to Notate change?
What composers that lived during that time both changed their whay of notating And commentated on it?
None? Ok.
We literally have the publishing’s of a composers mm in both SB and wB. Why didn’t anyone say anything? Why do you even write something that you yourself know little about apparently
rober Acevedo Wellving, I have written a chapter in a well known teaching book in this subject. I do believe that I at least know some.
Just because there are a few examples in piano music that a Wim believes are to fast does not mean that all songs and other chamber music work in double beat. Actually quite the opposite.
While I really don't like these two I still am interested in what they have to say.
They are the biggest classical music influencers in the world, with almost 3 million subscribers. They are making young people like and hear classical and braking stereotypes, like it’s only for rich and old people or that it’s boring.
If you like classical, you should really thank these two guys
Did you hear their Tchaikovsky 2 mil Drop? As an older musician/ artist, I really don't fit in with the young crowd there so much, but it is always friendly and supportive, especially this year, so I have reached out a bit to some of the kids (who sounded bummed or bewildered by the situation) and I joke around on the comments sometimes. I forgot how really brilliant they were until the 2 mil drop, it might even be a a shame their careers don't really allow them to focus 100% on their music. As the comment below states, they do lot of good where they are, but you know, lots of good teachers are around, lots of comedians, (maybe fewer with a clean act for young people?) But only once in a lifetime do you run across some of those classical greats, where would I have ended up without them, I don't really like to think about it. You can see in the format, they didn't take themselves so seriously, it was even a distraction in places, but then somewhere the music gets ahold of them and then somehow tears are streaming down my face.
@@KKIcons Here's my take away on this subject. On the one hand TwoSet dose have respect for the music which I admire. I was raised in a household which frowned upon and discouraged my musical studies, because of this I took music seriously and I never joked much about it. Due to medical problems I had to give up any chances of being professional. I admit when I saw some of TwoSets videos I liked what they were doing untill I took notice of their fan base, this is proven in the comment section of this video and every other one which they are mentioned, every time Twoset is mentioned its nothing but memes. That is what bothers me.
TXCrafts1 Well you sound like the perfect example of classical music elitist that Twoset and their community aim to lessen. No wonder you outright don’t like them.
@@ajchandra7735 did you read even read any of my previous comments, I said I admire the love TwoSet has for the music but I didn't like their meme spewing fanbase. Thats all, I have nothing against TwoSet. In fact I liked this video and what they said.
More musical illustrations and less words, please
about 300 recordings enough for you?
I never knew Tom Cruise is into classical music 🤔
ua-cam.com/video/i9WL0_Pc55E/v-deo.html
Imagine being a slave to metronome markings. I really can’t imagine great, creative people doing so.
Beethoven? Chopin? Schumann? ..
AuthenticSound, I mean I’m not sure what evidence there is they were a slave to the markings. How many of them wrote about playing and how many wrote about the metronome? I mean, I know this is your thing and your agenda, but I haven’t seen a lot of evidence backing up the veracity. Why not just have computers doing the playing if everything on the page is going to be taken so literally. I originally thought this was a Two Set video - that’s the only reason I’m here. I already know I don’t agree with you. I do not think bland is better, but good luck with your channel.
I don't really care at which tempo Beethoven or Chopin really meant their pieces to be played. Which is fair because they don't care either, being dead and all.
Obviously you do care. That is wonderful. Every man should care about something.
Not that you just care, you are very active at promoting your ideas. Which result in more views of your performances, which is a goal of any performer.
Why not...425?
In my opinion the speed at which music is played doesn’t really matter, I understand that tempo is a key part of music but I still believe that music should be the performers’ as well
Lets not forget that TRAUM just played 16 notes per second in one of his last Videos.
Traum sucks
Reported for obscene content
Back then everyone had cat to keep mice out of their homes modern non mouse alternatives not being as good as today. A
Cat cant resist batting a ticking metronome. Of course once dropped they lose their accuracy. That is the only logical explanation. Meow!
How long till my last post is deleted by the 'whole beat' police?
Just in case you don't know, the only people who can delete your posts are the Host, and the Moderators who represent him. They are free, and guiltless, to delete any post they desire, and any complaint about it is considered a challenge to their authority over their own channel and content.
Nothing can save you if you play viola.
Davie X TwoSet X AS X HermanLi
2020 is not over yet, Anything could happen
Wow! Tom Cruise's brother.
ua-cam.com/video/i9WL0_Pc55E/v-deo.html
AuthenticSound haha thanks
Wim you are so koppig
I like the newest member of Wim's team!
Please tell me you're not another Two Set Hater 😡
love these guys 💗
You look like sam rockwell had a baby with tom cruise
:-) ua-cam.com/video/i9WL0_Pc55E/v-deo.html
@@AuthenticSound But am I the ifrst to say sam rockwell as well?
Unless you're playing for authentic 18th century ears an authentic 18th century performance is both impossible and pointless.
Its sad isn't it?? you don't disrespect the past and think you know better better because you have access to google !! you build upon it !
Think it's an interesting dichotomy that applies to politics, the left right dichotomy is a divide between tradition and change, you can think you preserve a tradition playing the same way your teacher did but your aging, your tastes, personnal experiences will shape your music inevitably.
Some people would stick to the music sheet but it wouldn't be the way it was played back then anyway due to tuning only first and tempo as you point out.
And some sacrilegeous boys would just experiment their own way their own feel on the music.
It's never really different, yet never the same.
I think in the end music is to be heard and shared hence composition will fit the era it's played in. In 500 years people will listen to recordings and say i prefer this one of 200 years ago, and some others will say let's try this out to see. Taste is like talent it can be worked as well, which make this complicated as well.