Let's become a bit technical on Beethoven's Moonlight, shall we?
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2019
- When we see an Alla Breve (cut time) Time Signature at the beginning of a piece, often you will hear and read today that the tempo should be taken twice as fast. But... is that what Beethoven and his contemporaries exactly had in mind?
Start your tempo journey here: • How Fast did Beethoven...
Cut time versus Common Time : • Cut Time vs. Common Ti...
My version of the Adagio Sostenuto : • Beethoven - Moonlight ...
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I would give anything to hear these composer play their own music themselves.
Give me your life, then you can see them play. 😈😈😈
@@Zephyrus47 God? Mephisto?
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure is what you need.
This is the kind of real content that is missing from most of TubeYou. Thanks for being brave enough to persue your passion. Cheers
This is very interesting and informative. I've always thought of the quarter-notes as eighth-notes in 'cut time' because I find this also changes the placement of the rhythmic pulse on the two halves of the measure. Counting as 4-beats in cut-time destroys the forward movement, but counting in 2 in the 4 works.
Many thanks for this very infomative video and for your enthusiasm !
I could not agree with you more - I mean, the consideration of the changing harmonies within a single bar together with the notes and tempo indications. In basic principle, It reminded me of Jan La Rue's "Guidelines for Style Analysis" (1970 ) - (very) roughly about the interrelations between the musical elements (sound, harmony, melody, rhythm, growth and text influence). However, this most complicated book is more for the musicologist than for the performer. I would suggest considering also the right hand's part in relation to the Alla Breve. I also agreed with you on the subject of the flexibility or gradation of velocity for this Alla Breve. Thank so much for this most important upload and the cautious way you treated the conclusion, without forcing a definite solution. Bravo.
Really interesting video! Very informative and useful! Thank you so much! Really love to hear more of the theoretical and technical aspects of the pieces you perform.
I had a little problems with over analyzing this piece. However I ended up discarding unnecessary analyzing and followed my heart. What speaks to me, as I'm not going to play for an audience. Ended up with slightly slower tempo than your's and a few more minor things. And for anyone who says the melody disappears if you don't play faster and louder, I can only say.... I beg to differ! :D Use more than your ears.
I see this piece as a "trio". We have the "alla breve bass"; the ostinato triplets (in 9/8 time) keeping the piece going at 90 clicks/minute; and then the top voice, which is in a "common time" of sorts. THAT'S Beethoven's genius in my opinion. He took three different time signatures and combined them in one trio to form this most wonderful of songs!
@@thomashughes4859 Wow that's very interesting view on this piece! :o Thank you very much for sharing! Wouldn't have figured that out, that's a brilliant idea!
@@lemonemmi Thank you!
I err'd. It should be 12/8 time. And when Louis passes the motif to the bass in the coda, but after that, it's all good.
@@thomashughes4859 Yes, figured it was a typo of sorts, you made the idea understandable anyways. :) Thanks for clarifying though!
I LOVE that you use the Dover-published sonata book! The off-white page color is so pleasing to the eye. The degree of wear on it really shows how much it’s been used. Your dedication is inspiring!
Awesome video!
Cut time isn't twice as fast -- it's just half as long.
Anti-semantic here 🤦🏻
Thanks, great music!
You can find old operas and symphonies records on the channel.
I really appreciate your insight, but after I experienced Andras Schiff’s lecture, I can’t unconvince myself or unhear that it is actually a Marche Funebre, thus the cut time. +70bpm per quarter note is which pleases my ears. He links it with a similar structure in Commendatore’s murder scene in Don Giovanni backed up with sketches of Beethoven’s own on which the section from Mozart transposed to c sharp minor, making it sound frighteningly similar to the piece. Peace
It's unfortunate that a truly great musician like Schiff spreads these kinds of tempo-fantasies based on really nothing else but his own taste. No problem with that taste, however he must realize these opinions are taken over by many music lovers as actual facts, which they don't. His great knowledge on Mozart's opera's and cross connection is fascinating for sure.
@@AuthenticSound But Wim, isn’t that exactly what you’re doing?
@@TheVoitel From this video I got the feeling that he was presenting a general concept of how cut time is not always what it seems in the context of higher tempos and more complex harmonies. Something not explicitly stated, but implied.
@@Leonhart_93 That’s not the point here. Thing is: As you can read Wim is trying to create the implication that his unproven, quite shaky conjecture was more solid than the ideas of Schiff, when it isn’t really. Because in the end Wim’s argument is just: Is has to be this way, because only so it fits my image of Beethoven. Which is an extremely romanticised, modern image of Beethoven!
I mean, this channel is mostly rhethorics. In the up to this point Wim has not given any kind of hard evidence for his conjecture, and successfully ignored any counterindication to it.
@@TheVoitel For me it felt like he wasn't presenting the concept in relation to Beethoven specifically at all.
More like he was saying it's an unspoken rule that there are times where the time signature and tempo don't make sense in the context, so the interpretation is somewhere in between.
And it seemed that his particular interpretation of Moonlight was just an example to underline this point.
Because let's be real here, if you take it literally with 2/2 time at 60 BPM, then you would need to play each measure in 2 seconds time, which is blazingly fast. The notation never made any sense to me.
Interestingly enough this is the case where the whole beat theory goes extreme . Most of the articles or lectures talking about opus 27/2 mentioned that the evolution of playing in our century has transformed this adagio sustenuto into a very slow movement.
The previous record ( longest ) was Curter Solomon (in 7.30 mn )
ua-cam.com/video/bHffjDG_pJ0/v-deo.html
Wim, you can claim for the record now ( 9mn )
The more you go back in time , the fastest it gets. One if not the one recording which we could considered as the most related to Beethoven to some extent is the one from Frederic Lamond (1868 -1948) because he was a pupil of Liszt and certainly learnt that fabulous piece with him . It is well known that Liszt was the best interpreter of Beethoven's work in Beethoven own words.
Here is the link to the recording of Frederic Lamond in 1926 ( in 4.11 mn) it is clearly "alla breve" I have to say the melodic line is splendid.
ua-cam.com/video/pVKXFwT7Gp8/v-deo.html
Hi Christian, you're right, most of the scholar works on tempo suggests that tempi were taken slower later in the 19th century. They repeat that so often that it seems to be a fact. But that is not. Except for one quote by Moscheles (!) questioning Wagner's adagios (which he seemed to drag), there is not much if anything to be found to confirm that position. And even that one Moscheles quote is given incomplete, Moscheles continues saying that Wagner played on the contrary all the fast movements way too fast. But think about what would happen if one clearly, and factually (more consistent than I have time to do as we speak) demonstrate that based on writings the only conclusion is that tempi went up in the 19th century (and drastically). What would happen is that one of the foundations of foggy explanations for single beat dissapear. I write 'foggy', since that it is: it are the metronome numbers (in single beat) that makes today's scholar write this, but it are the musicians who gave those MM who complain about the too high tempi. There is only one context in which all fit, and easily fits: that of the whole beat reconstruction. Be aware of circular evidence, most scholars on tempi start with the idea of proving their conclusion.
AuthenticSound hello Wim , I was just referring to the op27/2 in my comment . For most of the other pieces I concur with you . But in this particular case , it seems that it’s getting played slower and slower . In my opinion , and it’s only mine , I can think of two reasons , one being that the alla breve has disappeared overtime , and second one , maybe the root cause of the disappearance of the alla breve is the fact that even though fast playing is popular , there is a desire for slow , solemn movements that somehow counter balance fast pace of life and of music in general . That’s why so many people like it ( including myself ;) the good news is that slow and fast renditions could be very nice , and yours falls in that category and so is Lamond’s one . Not so many musics can tolerate such discrepancies in the rendition , that’s why what Beethoven gave us is a true piece of art .
Wim, I just noticed something regarding Opus 27,#2. In my edition, Schirmer's Library of musical classics, no printing date but probably the 1980's? Anyway, on the bottom of page 254, accordingly in this edition is the first page of the sonata, there are two footnotes on the bottom of the page. The second footnote reads as follows:
"A more frequent use of the pedal than is marked by the editor, and limited here to the most essential passages, is allowable; it is not advisable, however, to take the original directions sempre senza sordini (i.e., without dampers) too literally."
Well, I must admit that I had paid no attention to those footnotes until you focussed our attention on the tempo and textures of the first movement. I am surprised that the editors of the work wrote this. Perhaps this is the work of Dr. Hans von Bulow and Dr. Sigmund Lebert, who supposedly "revised and fingered" the edition. It appears that they are saying to not pay attention to Beethoven's own instructions that appear in the manuscript. That's quite something.
Next thing I noticed is that the use of "una corda" is continuously offset in the first movement with indications to push the damper pedal down, when to release it and when to apply it again. The "una corda" comes and goes and contrary to what Schiff appears to say, it is NOT a total wash of tones from start to finish in this movement. I think that Schiff does not make himself adequately clear about this one issue in his lecture.
As I stated in a previous comment I no longer like or favour Schiff's interpretation of the 1'st movement as the sounds are too blurry. I found that Brendel's interpretation is more favourable. I still quibble with your tempo but that's another issue.
Your microphone is nice
Without recordings of Beethoven or Czerny or whoever actually playing this sonata we can speculate as much as we please, but ultimately it doesn't solve the perceived problem with tempo.
Interpret it however you will, we'll never get to Beethoven's exact wishes on tempo. So let's just play, enjoy and appreciate this uniquely magnificent music without all of the palaver.
that however contradicts everything Beethoven and contemporaries wrote, so...
@@AuthenticSound so does your ‘one-note’ assertion re metronomes…
Thanks a lot for your helpful work. A small (maybe primitive) hint how to find the exact tempo of the triplet-notes here: simply add to the given metronomnumber the halve of it's value. Then the Metronome will beat exact the triplet-tempo. Here (if I read it correct): quarter = 60 … + 30 = 90. 90 per minute is the tempo of the triplet eighths.
Thanks Alfred, great reading you here!
Beethoven’s metronome markings for Symphony #7, allegretto = 76, and, guess what, it’s slower than the adagio of Symphony #3. In both cases the pace and visual appearance are similar to Moonlight. The term “adagio” should therefore be taken with a grain of C-salt, also, Beethoven later dissed these terms. If (and yes it is a big if) we can accept page one of Moon (no MS), we are left with cut-time. Observe conductors - they do two arm beats per measure of 2/4 in Sym #7. This seems natural, yes? In the typical slow tempo of Moonlights, there would be four arm beats if it were conducted.
76 is so much FASTER than most people play it.
And I find that this is the case with most of Beethoven. I think people overthink it and take their bias of what it's supposed to sound like based on how some people performed it, while if you were to just sit down and read it, you'd play it differently.
@@hellomate639 Largely I would agree with your first statement (that B is mostly played too slow). However, if people are basing their performance on how others play it, they are essentially following the crowd. In other words they are not overthinking - they are under-thinking. As you say, if they would just sit down and read it, they might come up with something more accurate. OTOH (On the other hand), if I just play the tempo as I feel it, regardless of the printed score, I might wind up with the consensus tempo. Not based on thought but based on feeling. Therefore I can conclude that B wanted a certain tempo, but that artistic/human feeling may demand something different. Both points of view IMO are valid.
Where did you get that beautiful piano? :)
I LOVE U SO MUCH
I have a question. Why Beethoven wright the melodie on top in a multiple of 2 notes? If we play like: Pa _ pa _ pa Pa /Pa _ pa _ pa etc, like everyone, perhaps it is not right. Matematicaly, the second note of the melody have to be closer to the third note of bass triplets than to de first note of the next bar, like this: Pa _ _ _ pa _ _ _ pa Pa _ _ /Pa. Do you have some information on that?
This would reforce the WB theory , because it is extremely difficult, perhaps impossible, to play the second note of the melody closer to the third note of the bass without merging them in faster tempi.
The much easier explanation is that we tend to see the pieces through the veil of our own taste, and that is heavily romantisized at this point. This sonata is not even called Moonlight sonata, Beethoven never gave this Sonata a title. Even the title (which you use without second thought) is nothing but an imposed romanticistic meaning.
Notation????
@@AuthenticSound Dazzled and confused, but trying to continue.
@@TheVoitelHe never replies with clarity
In the Moonlight, should the alla breeve be read as 2/2 or 4/2 ?
as a fast 4/4, it is somewhere in between 'normal' C and 8th note AB
Many thanks for your kind reply. I greatly admire the wealth of knowledge you convey, and hope work on the WBMP book is progressing well Wim. All best wishes.
I have seen the term Andante taken to the extreme of slowness. Here are the average ranges of the slow tempos that I see
Grave - 30-40 BPM
Largo - 40-52 BPM
Larghetto - 52-65 BPM
Adagio - 65-78 BPM
Andantino(I first learned this as meaning slower than Andante) - 78-83 BPM
Andante - 83-98 BPM
Andante Moderato - 90-99 BPM
But the K 545 sonata takes the term Andante to the amount of slowness that I usually see in a Larghetto. The tempo indication I see in the Schirmer edition that I have is quarter note = 60 BPM. The Andante is cantabile, in a singing style. But that alone gives no clue as to how slow or fast it is because for example, you can have a marking of Allegro Cantabile, which would clearly be faster than Andante Cantabile but may or may not be your usual Allegro tempo. Cantabile only gives hints as to how to approach the feel of the piece, nothing related to tempo in the term Cantabile.
The Andante of K 545 is in 3/4 time, which is typical for a slow movement. But again, this gives no clue as to the tempo other than that the note the tempo would apply to is a quarter note. Concievably, a quarter note Andante and an eighth note Allegro could actually be the same exact note speed, just with different beats. So why is the Andante of K 545 so slow that it is in the average tempo range for Larghetto?
I get picked on but a measure I use is "measures per minute". Allegro 40, Allegretto 20, Andante 10, & Adagio 5. At those starting points, you can then begin to work out a final performance tempo. Just a thought.
More or less the same tempo as the slow movement of the Patethique.
Pathetique is indeed similar movement of the MM, but for the 8th note (so playing each 16th to the ticks)
That's a hard one for me to keep control over, Wim.
If it were truly in cut time, the tempo marking would have had a half note rather than a quarter note.
But then the tempo marking would be minim=30 and metronoms only go to 40.
Yup! I posted that somewhere, but it must have got lost.
I never hit the "Reply button" .. had this written eons ago ...
disagree
Well, it has the cut time symbol as its time signature on the score. Much like how the Largo from the Hammerklavier's finale isn't in 16/16 just because the metronome marking had semiquavers instead of crotchets
Mr. Winters, I was wondering - I hope not to sound pedantic but I don't know how useful or well-known and respected as sources these books are- are you familiar with Rothschild books? Do you think when he is talking about having a four beat measure with an only accent or with two is he implying also this wbt? Hope you can read this. Sincerely, f.
He was a remarkable guy, hit some aspects right and others not, and especially the way he was treated by his colleagues was telling!
@@AuthenticSound Thank you so much maestro for taking the time to answer! Have a great day
Maestro?@@ferminsalaberri
I love this sort of technical detail approach to any form of music but this is a real treat.
Out of interest is there a typical approach to tempo change in cut time regarding harmonic changes? So for example in cut time if you go from structural 8th notes to structural 8th note triplets (or even 16th notes) it slows down the tempo in a noticeable way, but is there anything like that if it was 2 harmonic changes per bar as the basis of harmonic structure? Would that slow down the tempo again? Or if it was typically 1 harmonic change per 2 bars, would that speed it up in anyway?
Just really interesting to know going forward if I come across music to understand it better.
Harmonic changes, the complexity of the counterpoint and the affect of the piece have indeed an influence over the tempo.
Hello! Great video, I was getting old looking for the score you show in the video, I was about to post here asking for help but in the last moment I found it.
EDIT: I just saw that you sell it on patreon and inmediatly came here to delete the link, sorry for that mate!
It is nice that you analyze the tempos technically, but these tempos had a different origin than a mathematician.
For example, we see in the film adaptation of Mozart how he drew inspiration from busy chattering women.
Determining the tempo can then be related to the speed at which women can converse.
To me, Beethoven is the composer who expressed emotions most.
If you know that the Moonlight Sonata was written on Lake Como with the pains of an unattainable love (Giulietta Guicciardi), this already gives an indication of the tempo that suits this.
If you play it too fast, nothing remains of the feeling that should be evoked, that the depiction of Beethoven's broken heart must be.
If you play it too slow, a feeling of boredom will occur.
But just as important as the tempo is the volume at which the notes are played to accurately approximate the emotion situation.
Therefore, it will be very difficult for a pianist who approaches music purely mathematically. If the pianist cannot empathize with the emotions associated with the piece, it will be difficult to correctly depict Beethoven.
Wow. Most of these references you mentioned are actually false
@@ludwigvanbeethoven8164 I was obviously not present in the century where these composers lived, so I have my information from books, just like anyone who lives in this century.
I am aware that there are several theories about the historical situation where some compositions were written. This is also the case, for example, with Chopin's "Revolutionary" etude. But I am convinced that you can do justice to "Revolutionary" best if you empathize with the (presumed) state of mind that Chopin composed it during the invasion of his homeland Poland.
Best regards, Dirk
Your opinion about the tempo of the 3rd movement (in another video) is very convincing. Apart from the technical reasons, that tempo also seems to work musically, making the music more palatable, and of course, giving sense to the double-timed climax, and making possible to play it at all.
However, I am not that sure about your interpretation of the 1st movement. I don't see how that works musically. I find such a slow tempo difficult to bear, and the melodies difficult to understand. When hearing one note, you have nearly forgotten about the previous one. This might be subjective, but still important.
You argue that the 16th note in the melody would be too fast in faster tempos, but you aren't playing it correctly. You are playing a triplet 16th note, when the score has a longer binary 16th note.
Following your indications, you set the metronome to 60, then you find the halved-down time, and then build triplets on top of it. I find this very unpractical, and moreover it would make it very uncomfortable to play the triplets together with a running metronome with binary subdivisions. This is a compelling argument that there could be something wrong in your interpretation.
You seem to retard the arrival to the first part of every bar. Do you think that was a usual practice? It doesn't sound right for me. Even the tempo indication says "sostenuto", which suggests a steady tempo.
Regarding the "alla breve", would it indicate that the bar has 2 main accents? I hear 4 accents in your playing.
Also, I don't hear the dominating pianissimo of the piece. I think that the piece is looking for that feeling that things can be set free and get louder, but it never does, and in that way it maintains a tension on the listener, who keeps internally asking for more. This may be subjective, but coming down to the score, the pianissimo is noted all over, probably to remember the pianist that he has to hold back.
These are a lot of critics, but with the aim of clarifying and understanding this piece better. Thank you so much for your research work, and for sharing it with us!
His interpretation of the third movement is also wrong. What happened to Presto agitato if you play the movement at his tempo? The character is gone. It's not fast anymore, it's not agitated anymore. The movement becomes an exercise for beginner piano students. Ultimately, would Beethoven, the greatest piano improviser at the start of his career, be only capable of playing Andante instead of Presto agitato? I am 100% sure he had greater technical skills than that.
@@sergeisavitski7339 To me, Wim's interpretation of the 3rd movement's tempo sounds more sensible. Apart from the problem that he describes with the passage of 32nd notes, melodies seem to make more sense at this slower tempo.
This said, I don't like Wim's tempo modulations during the piece, notably the ritenuto that he does in the sforzate 8th notes at the end of each initial phrase.
According to other videos, Beethoven was not only writing for himself, he was writing for other interpreters to play his music.
One note: In the score manuscript, there are two indications "Presto." (with the period) and "agitato" separately written. So, it is a presto, and must be played with an agitato character. The "agitato" does not seem to intend to be a tempo modifier.
Third?!? HAHA!
We want more..! We want more..!
@@lemonemmi Absolutement!
Now I'm completely confused.
This is not easy stuff when it's new. Search on my channel for tempo ordinario and you'll find some more information
This was a complete waste of 20 mins of my life - actually 5 mins cause I had to skip through.
I indeed might be somewhat too technical if you are not familiar with the basic principles of historical notation, I understand. I should make some series more focused on basic stuff, that might suit your needs more
Every super/normal composer/instrumentplayer should have his/ her society formed formed to him/her way almost as in Amadeus maybe,and never need to go in The common SOCIETYMATRIX with pessimistics lowculture lowenergy
Not to toss a red herring into the fray; however, if folks are having a tough time with "whole beat" "half bear", all I can offer is that you make your own T=1 pendulum - super easy. Grab some string, and grab a spoon. Tie the string on the spoon so that the spoon is balanced. Measure 25 cm from the where the spoon is tied to the part where you're going to grab the string.
Get it rocking. OK, that's HALF BEAT at 120 - check on your MM; it's within a few beats certainly.
NOW the pièce de résistance!!! O lala!!! Take the spoon, and instead of just pushing it, get it to go around in a circle. Now you have ZERO points of reference, so pick ONE (maybe when the spoon is closest to you), and viola! You will notice that the PERIOD (T=1) is one second. That is, it takes one second to come back around to your point of reference.
THAT is whole beat. So if you had a MM 1/4=60, take your 25 cm spoon contraption and set it in a circle. Each time the spoon reaches your predetermined point of reference, will be the period that the 1/4 note takes to complete.
TADA!
NB: I have these things all over my house; the wife is NOT happy, Bob! C'est la vie!
Wtf...! Good luck with your marriage
HAHA! Mad scientist wives have a special patience. ;}
From a non-classical perspective…the beat is quarter note, the singing is 8th note, and the groove or feeling that drives or supports the singing is 16th notes…a snare accent is 2 and 4, against the strong beat. Cut time means that all shifts, nothing to do with speed/tempo… so beat is half, singing is quarter, groove 8th- note. BUT, the important thing is the up beat is STILL 2 and 4. Halftime means all the shifts the other direction, so beat is 8th, singing is 16th, groove is 32nd, and still 2 and 4 is accentuated. So apply to Beethoven, speed is not important, but feeling is. So he wants you to sing quarter notes, groove on 8ths, feel the pulse as half notes. Because of his beaming, those are TRIPLETS, ie, in cut time, SEXTUPLETS groove, accent the UP beat or second group of 3 (count 2 and 4). That means the metronome marking is SUPPOSED to be a dotted quarter. It makes absolutely no sense to interpret the quarter as 60 without the dot….UNLESS Beethoven had explicitly written 12/8 meter. To me the intent is clear, and what is missing is a dot next to quarter note indication, simply.
That's a great comment, and explains very well the feeling of the first movement of the Moonlight. The pulse is on half-notes, not quarter notes. It has to swing a little. The difference in classical music is that the accents (stresses) are normally not on the offbeat, and in cut time there are only two stresses, like two beats in a bar - but of course a folk or jazz group could switch the accents. That would be interesting - have you tried?
The other thing is that it is quite common in classical music to have triplets in a binary meter - 4/4 or 2/4. The metronome marking is OK. If it were 12/8, it would have to be a dotted quarter. But then the first upbeat of the melody, dotted eighth+sixteenth, would not have been possible, and that rhythm (4 against 3) sets the tone - it really matters.
The video could be twice as fast, alla breve...
12:30 Okay, but then you played it sixteenth=54 instead (twice too slow)...
Could it be the "double beat theory" ? Probably yes...
I was in agreement for the first half of this film, but when I heard the actual tempo, I felt it was just too slow. I could not perform it at this speed. He seems to have completely discarded the alla breve feeling. It sounds like 4/4. This is most important to me! (I think that most people play this too slowly and too romantically. This is NOT romantic music.) This slow, drawn-out tempo is just going to make people fall asleep. You can create the atmosphere and still maintain two -in-a-bar. The tempo in alla breve is referring to the minim beat, not the crotchet.
The sound and balance are also paramount. It should sound ghostly, of another world. The "Moonlight" title is just childish and stupid. Ignore it!
it sounds like a 4/4 because... it is one
@@AuthenticSound Thank you. According to my digital metronome, your beat is exactly 30 beats per minute. Are you saying that alla breve means that you halve the tempo, instead of doubling it? I am very confused by your analysis. So it is NOT 2/2? My personal preferred tempo for this is 50 crotchet beats per minute, felt as two beats per bar. My mechanical metronome is marked: Adagio: 56 beats per minute.
@@cynic150 That's because of the "double beat theory".
@@damienphilippe-piano5547 What?
@@cynic150 Wim Winters is a huge defender of the "double beat theory", that is one beat is in fact two beats on a metronome, a round trip of the pendulum if you want. The result is that all the music must be played twice slower !
Why do you call it the "moonlight sonata"? That is not the correct name of the sonata No. 14.
Its proper name is "Sonata quasi una fantasia"
Beethoven would never ever give it such a stupid name as "Moonlight". He is turning in his grave every time people utter that hideously kitschy name.
O yes he was in favor of names like that, as anyone else
unrelated but you look a lot like Tom Cruise haha :)