We had exactly the same outcome last Saturday - also on a F40, stbd downwind in 20+kts just like this. We didn't snap the pole, but we did destroy the kite. As the trimmer, I'm studying this video to look for the point of failure. The UK sailmaker commentary blames the helmsman, saying the crew work was fine. Other comments sheet it home to the trimmer. I'm coming to the view that in the video the boat was too finely balanced, with the helmsman struggling to keep the mast to leeward, and suspect that from the get-go, the kite was too full, and it was only a matter of time before it crashed. Not blaming the trimmer for easing the sheet at the critical moment, the problem existed from the start. I think it's wrong to blame the helmsman for lack of attention, but, given the skill level of the crew, correct to blame the skipper for allowing the boat to be sailed on such a knife-edge. What was the grinder doing, sitting astride the winch looking aft? And how about trim2 on the brace, scrambling away from the winch when he might have saved the day by easing the pole forward. In those conditions, if you're going to set the boat up to do 18+ kts you need more crew training. So do we, but we don't get many 20+ kt days to practice.
Your comments don't make sense. Here the boat rounded up, because main was too much. Pole forward would only make the counter force against main even smaller. Ultimately it's due to the main being too big. I'm surprised though why the boat heeled to windward. Normally when you round up, you heel to leeward (at least when without a spinnaker)
@@yangyang3175 No, sorry, the boat did not "round up" A round up occurs when the boat turns to windward. In this case, on the starboard jibe, a round up would have had the boat turning into the wind -to to starboard. The boat actually turned to port, inducing the main to jibe. This was a leeward broach, not a round-up.
@@alans172 you are right, upon closer look, I see that it turned to port. There was no reference objects so difficult to see. Yep where was the pole trimmer?
When "on the edge" like this... when you know there is a real risk of a round down... there are things the crew can do when the helm starts to lose control (and frankly before they lose control)... be prepared to sheet the spinnaker like crazy to drag as much sail area as you can to the leeward side as fast as you can... the grinder should be grinding as soon as the boat starts leaning to weather and not wait for the helm to declare they lost it, this often will "save you" (though you may then round up but better then rounding down)... someone on the vang ready to blow if if the main jibes to avoid a boom in the water, broken boom, and to make it much easier to jibe back (assuming you haven't broken anything)... someone on the foreguy and someone else on the topping lift ready to get the pole high enough to not be dragged in the water during the round down... and last bit of disaster planning is the spinny halyard nicely laid out ready to blow at a moments notice. Oh, and everyone on deck having several times talked thru what each of their "to dos" are whenever the boat rolls to weather (go thru the motions on every weather roll not just the "too big one" which the objective is to prevent.
For me, at 3:10..., the trimmer is loosing sheet in the puff. The Spinnaker gets round and starts twisting. You can see, he is loosing concentration, sheet is coming off, he is trying to trim in, spinnaker is forcing to windward.
I would recommend a reef or two in the main. Massive control gain for giving up a puny amount of sail area. When I need a reef upwind, its just as useful going downwind.
If you go to watch an F1 race live, you can see what you don't see on TV, that the cars are on the verge of crashing off the track for the whole race. This is the same. If you sail at ludicrous speeds, eventually you will crash. But if you don't, you lose.
Perfect comment. That is the very essence of racing. You have to be willing to constantly ride right on the very edge of reason, flirting with disaster or your wins will just be the sum of all your luck. That knowledge, that willingness, separates the pro racers from the amateurs.
No, there was nothing stopping that boom. Even if you had a massive preventer on it, all it would do it snap the rig once the wind filled on the other side of the main, post round up.
Bad idea. Nothing was stopping that boom. Maybe it would’ve held for a minute, but then the wind fills the other side of the main as the boat rounds up, pushing the bow into the water until the preventer explodes.
I did and the captain woke up from his nap and said wtf are doing? I said idk, sailing I guess. First time out on anything over 16’.. learned my lesson then after he screamed at me to get off the helm 😂
Got the t-shirt. Creaming along and it all goes tits up in a second. If you race sailboats you will fuck up, just really annoying when you're the one paying the bill....
Everything was fine until the helmsman looked back at the camera and lost his concentration. A reefed main would have been good and maybe a preventer on the boom. Also twings on the sheet and guy would have controlled the kite oscillation. You need to stay under the kite when running in a following sea. Steer under it at all times
Yes. The outcome was expected. Being a bit conservative in sail plan and preventers could have made all the difference. They were in trouble with little control and on the edge the whole time, with a very fine margin to sail successfully. At least it keeps the sailing gear manufacturers in business.
Preventers are a bad idea when racing in a blow. Nothing was stopping that boom from coming over, it would’ve just held the boat to windward, pushing the bow down into the water until the preventer exploded. Reefed main is also sketch, as it exposes the top of the kite to the wind more, leading to even more leeward heel.
@@branni6538 madness? Nah, this is fun! Racing gets your blood pumping, you’re never more alive than when you’re staring at death. And yet, nobody died!
thx for sharing! little bit of confusion on my side, watch this ua-cam.com/video/P1n-7czmc14/v-deo.html (minute 48:32), they say never move the pole forward but sheet on in heavy ai running. any comments? or do you mean: 1.sail 10-20 degrees higher. 2. sheet on/trim harder 3. therefore moving pole forward adapting to new/higher angle of wind, reducing windward heeling ?
@@13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51 i'm not worried, the basics will always be the basics(ie., living off grid, etc....) sailing history runs long and deeper than wokism
In the Laser we call this a “death roll” I gave up and started to drive a 250hp RIB, far more satisfying than all this sail malarkey.... Having said that, you can’t beat a windsurfer flat out in weather like that!
We had exactly the same outcome last Saturday - also on a F40, stbd downwind in 20+kts just like this. We didn't snap the pole, but we did destroy the kite. As the trimmer, I'm studying this video to look for the point of failure.
The UK sailmaker commentary blames the helmsman, saying the crew work was fine.
Other comments sheet it home to the trimmer. I'm coming to the view that in the video the boat was too finely balanced, with the helmsman struggling to keep the mast to leeward, and suspect that from the get-go, the kite was too full, and it was only a matter of time before it crashed.
Not blaming the trimmer for easing the sheet at the critical moment, the problem existed from the start.
I think it's wrong to blame the helmsman for lack of attention, but, given the skill level of the crew, correct to blame the skipper for allowing the boat to be sailed on such a knife-edge.
What was the grinder doing, sitting astride the winch looking aft?
And how about trim2 on the brace, scrambling away from the winch when he might have saved the day by easing the pole forward.
In those conditions, if you're going to set the boat up to do 18+ kts you need more crew training.
So do we, but we don't get many 20+ kt days to practice.
Good reflection 👍
Excellent commentary. Thank you!
Your comments don't make sense. Here the boat rounded up, because main was too much. Pole forward would only make the counter force against main even smaller. Ultimately it's due to the main being too big.
I'm surprised though why the boat heeled to windward. Normally when you round up, you heel to leeward (at least when without a spinnaker)
@@yangyang3175 No, sorry, the boat did not "round up" A round up occurs when the boat turns to windward. In this case, on the starboard jibe, a round up would have had the boat turning into the wind -to to starboard. The boat actually turned to port, inducing the main to jibe. This was a leeward broach, not a round-up.
@@alans172 you are right, upon closer look, I see that it turned to port. There was no reference objects so difficult to see. Yep where was the pole trimmer?
Respect for the way this sailor is pushing his ship to the absolute max.. Chapeau!!
When "on the edge" like this... when you know there is a real risk of a round down... there are things the crew can do when the helm starts to lose control (and frankly before they lose control)... be prepared to sheet the spinnaker like crazy to drag as much sail area as you can to the leeward side as fast as you can... the grinder should be grinding as soon as the boat starts leaning to weather and not wait for the helm to declare they lost it, this often will "save you" (though you may then round up but better then rounding down)... someone on the vang ready to blow if if the main jibes to avoid a boom in the water, broken boom, and to make it much easier to jibe back (assuming you haven't broken anything)... someone on the foreguy and someone else on the topping lift ready to get the pole high enough to not be dragged in the water during the round down... and last bit of disaster planning is the spinny halyard nicely laid out ready to blow at a moments notice. Oh, and everyone on deck having several times talked thru what each of their "to dos" are whenever the boat rolls to weather (go thru the motions on every weather roll not just the "too big one" which the objective is to prevent.
For me, at 3:10..., the trimmer is loosing sheet in the puff. The Spinnaker gets round and starts twisting. You can see, he is loosing concentration, sheet is coming off, he is trying to trim in, spinnaker is forcing to windward.
nothing much you can do, the puff was like 10° off base direction, mayve helmsman should have detected this quicker and luff more than he did
Sailing dingies at the Cape lower the spinniker and tack then hoist again by the time the compition recover from their capsize ypu are miles a head
My best ever video about spinnaker in strong condition. Serioustly!! ❤
Thank you. Keep watching the UK Sailmakers channel, website and Facebook pages for more sailing instructional videos and articles.
I would recommend a reef or two in the main. Massive control gain for giving up a puny amount of sail area. When I need a reef upwind, its just as useful going downwind.
Bring a chair in summer to San Francisco's waterfront, and watch knock downs all day long. Even in boats sailed by pros.
+ beer
Thank you
Very very important to know
After seeing that wing-wing configuration and the speed....I said “oh man”. LOL.
It's almost like they were racing....
Going out the backdoor!
Maybe some vang, look at the mainsail twist off at the top.
If you go to watch an F1 race live, you can see what you don't see on TV, that the cars are on the verge of crashing off the track for the whole race. This is the same. If you sail at ludicrous speeds, eventually you will crash. But if you don't, you lose.
"Ludicrous speed".....Love it!
Dark helmet approves.
Perfect comment. That is the very essence of racing. You have to be willing to constantly ride right on the very edge of reason, flirting with disaster or your wins will just be the sum of all your luck. That knowledge, that willingness, separates the pro racers from the amateurs.
would preventer help to avoid this condition in any way?
No, there was nothing stopping that boom. Even if you had a massive preventer on it, all it would do it snap the rig once the wind filled on the other side of the main, post round up.
Would it have been possible to tie the boom forward? I saw a different guy call it a boom stay. Is that not for all rigs?
Bad idea. Nothing was stopping that boom. Maybe it would’ve held for a minute, but then the wind fills the other side of the main as the boat rounds up, pushing the bow into the water until the preventer explodes.
Does this mostly apply to racing?
Yes, no daysailer or cruising sailor would push their boat this hard.
I did and the captain woke up from his nap and said wtf are doing? I said idk, sailing I guess. First time out on anything over 16’.. learned my lesson then after he screamed at me to get off the helm 😂
Why was there no preventer ?
Good speed.
That skipper will have a back problem. Horrible posture. Should stand centreline.
That main was always in too much contact with the shroud and as the narrator says they should have been 10 degrees higher
Got the t-shirt. Creaming along and it all goes tits up in a second. If you race sailboats you will fuck up, just really annoying when you're the one paying the bill....
Everything was fine until the helmsman looked back at the camera and lost his concentration. A reefed main would have been good and maybe a preventer on the boom. Also twings on the sheet and guy would have controlled the kite oscillation. You need to stay under the kite when running in a following sea. Steer under it at all times
Yes. The outcome was expected. Being a bit conservative in sail plan and preventers could have made all the difference. They were in trouble with little control and on the edge the whole time, with a very fine margin to sail successfully. At least it keeps the sailing gear manufacturers in business.
@@ooniak36 yup, at least nobody died.....I think
Preventers are a bad idea when racing in a blow. Nothing was stopping that boom from coming over, it would’ve just held the boat to windward, pushing the bow down into the water until the preventer exploded. Reefed main is also sketch, as it exposes the top of the kite to the wind more, leading to even more leeward heel.
No one sails like this for real. This is racing right? Pushing the gear to maximum. Madness.
@@branni6538 madness? Nah, this is fun! Racing gets your blood pumping, you’re never more alive than when you’re staring at death. And yet, nobody died!
thx for sharing! little bit of confusion on my side, watch this ua-cam.com/video/P1n-7czmc14/v-deo.html
(minute 48:32), they say never move the pole forward but sheet on in heavy ai running. any comments? or do you mean: 1.sail 10-20 degrees higher. 2. sheet on/trim harder 3. therefore moving pole forward adapting to new/higher angle of wind, reducing windward heeling ?
I believe sheeting in is another way of getting that spinnaker vector pointing forwards instead of windward
why are you RUNNING without a preventer
I was looking for the same thing and didn’t see it, fine until it’s not 💥
This is the equivalent as a turn exit crash in any motorsport.
Crazy
We walked great! But they relaxed.
With all the technical terms you'd already have to be an expert.
Shocking that they don’t wear crash helmets in these conditions. If hit by that boom, you are dead.
Yeah. But the while point of racing is getting laid after. ... So...
D
Фсё бросать!!!))) И, уходить "под ветер"......)))
helmsman
turned woke !
@@13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51 i'm not worried, the basics will always be the basics(ie., living off grid, etc....) sailing history runs long and deeper than wokism
Literally always the helmsman chatting about NOTHING.
Overconfidence. And no preventer rigged? Hubris.
In the Laser we call this a “death roll”
I gave up and started to drive a 250hp RIB, far more satisfying than all this sail malarkey....
Having said that, you can’t beat a windsurfer flat out in weather like that!
helms person ? WTF its a HELMSMAN ,,,,dont go WOKE , Please ! I will unsub in a heart beat ,,
😄
Bye bye , enjoy the past