Just found your videos, and as a new Tyranid player I find them interesting; I'm definitely subscribing. You're the first person I've seen who has recommended something other than 4x Devourer or Deathspitter+HVC. Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense as well.
Dude your advise is awesome so much clearer than when you ask elsewhere ....glad I found you before my carnifex brood arrives ! Subscribing ! Keep up the great work ,going to watch your other videos next !
Interesting take. I love how flexible Carnifex's are. Given their flexibility, I don't believe that there's only one way to run them correctly. You decide what role you want your Fex to play and design her to play that role.
How about quad dev and monstrous acid maw? The poverty nid list used lots of hvc and deathspitters fexss in jormunger. They worked in the last because it also had 20 purestrain genestealers that could be cult ambushed t1.
thx for your analysis Tsumugi. you did not mention the Acid Maw Option for Carnifexs. I play my Carnifexes with quad devourer, Acid Maw (instead of enhanced Senses), Spore cyste and Bone Mace
Interesting. I only have 3 Carnifexes (I do plan on eventually getting more for other loadouts) and they're set up with Heavy Venom Cannon and 2 Devourers using Hive Fleet Jormungandr to give them a cover bonus as they move up the field and reposition as needed. But then as I tend to play gunline style I treat them as I treat my Missle Launcher+Twin Lascannon Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes, and they work out fairly well. That said I only play on the local level which I'm sure is far from bein as competitive as say an ITC event or something along that level.
Agree. Between -1 to be hit and effective 2+ save, Jorm-fexes are really tanky for their points. And that extra durability is worth a lot more than +17% firepower while standing still. I'm also fond of the Claw+Devourer+Tusks setup with a Custom Hive Fleet to ignore shooting penalties while advancing and +1 to hit on the charge. Getting a charge in for 5 attacks hitting on 3+s with S12 AP-3 D3 is sweet, sweet nectar against... Well, anything other than infantry, which really, is why you have the Devourers and Genestealers...
Looking at it's codex entry, it seems clear the Carnifex is supposed to end up in combat at some point. But on paper at least I'm a bit cautious about -1 to hit with those claws on a 4 attack creature with a BS of 4. I know you get +1 on the charge (and you can charge a lot with Kraken but still that only equates to less that 2 hit's landed per turn, averaged between you and your opponent's fight phases. I'm thinking of taking a couple in Kraken and giving them scything talons and devourers and using them as a midfield threat. They should give a good account of themselves against anything under toughness 6 and if they tangle with anything tougher then they can use the 1 cp stratagem 'Voracious appetite' to reroll its wounds. Does this make sense do you think?
Actually, if -1 to hit with Claw is what you are concerned about, and you still want to have some form of mid-field threat. You can try the configuration Matt mentioned below. The Quad-Devourer with Monstrous Acid Maw Headmorph. You'll get 24 shots of S6 hit on 4s (Assuming you didn't advance), and if anything dares to come close, you can always attack them with S6 AP-5 Damage D3 attack that hit on 3s if you charge. That way you don't have to sacrifice one of your weapon slots for Talon while retaining the ability to hit with normal weapon skill. Combined with the obligatory Spore Cyst, it's only 115 points per model. I have thought about this configuration before, but for some reason forgot to mention it in this video. Although I would say that I still prefer the configuration with Crushing Claw. This is because anything under toughness of 6 will be killed (or at least trapped) by my Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Flyrant anyway. The thing that I can't handle is usually toughness 7 or more, that's where Crushing Claw comes in. All in all, if you want a Fex build that roams around in midfield, the Quad-Dev with Monstrous Acid Maw should be good. If you want a line breaker /second wave attack, crushing claw is more threatening. Hope this helps.
Those are good points thanks a lot. You might be right about needing something to take on higher toughness targets as I am running genestealers flyrants and hormagaunts.
I would like to request that you type this up and put it in the show more area so people can come back and read sections instead of trying to find it in the time line, or list what one you are talking about at what timestamp. Thanks for the information.
I agree with your reasoning on the items discussed. However I think it depends more on what else you have. For example if you have many carnifexes the probability risk for hvc is reduced. If you have good screens the risk for being locked down for shooting is reduced. I'm personally running a mix of several variants. Hvc/DS 4 Dev but also a bunch of genestealers and enough rippers to cover out the board for deepstriking. Nothing is ever absolute 💯 however I think there are more variances that have value on our lovable former amor smashers
That sucks man sorry to hear. Yeah sorry from my own experience they are super durable and throwing down smite with a neurothrope in support is super satisfying.. love to hear what you think but more importantly be safe out there love your work keep it up
For kraken why not go with Crushing Claws, scything talons, bone mace, spore cysts, tusks and adrenal glands? Ya you can't shoot but, you can charge over and over and get use out of the tusks and living battering ram every time when it is in combat.. I have not yet tried it out but I think it sounds good.
Another way I see it Carnifex profile dose not drop with wounds so either way they will take some fire power off my small guys if they get taken out fast or they will make it and destroy lol. I also like to build my army to make my enemy have to pick what to try to kill while every thing is running to them.
Sorry im newish to nids but why would you take Crushing claws and scything talons? you can only distribute the attacks to one of the weapons and in general the crushing claws would be more effective then a single pair of scything talons (since you need 2 pairs to get the additional attack) so wouldn't it just be better to have some ranged weapons in that slot so you are effective at more ranges? thanks!
Stranglethorn cannon is a specialized weapon designed to target horde units with bad saves. We already have Hormagaunt and Genestealer's Scything Talons to deal with such targets, therefore it is not even worth considering for Carnifex.
Tsumugi I like running it against armies like Tau, which generally have 12 man infantry squads that camp objectives / block deepstrikes. The extra range helps in the early game, but the d6 attacks could be better. I run the genestealer cult 3” demolition charges, so early game ranged is important to give them room to deploy close enough to valuable targets
hey tsumugi, I'm disappointed that gsc and tyranid don't work really well together, but will you make a video on how to run gsc with tyranid like 75%tyty and 25% gsc or 50/50 or 25/75.... great vid on carnifex ! i played against ultramarines and custodes so is the devourer / spitter is better than heavy venom (I run 3 carni in jomurgandr)?
Deathspitter might be the better choice if you are facing marine and custodes. HVC sorta works for Jormungandr, due to the fact that the fleet encourages you to move and shoot, instead of advance and shoot like Kraken. However, I still recommend using Carnifex in Kraken, and just charge forward with OoE. As for GSC, I don't own any model and theory crafting only gets me this far, but yes, I will talk more about ways how Tyranids and GSC can work together in the future.
Wow the carnifexs look almost a spitting image of the ones i had years ago, from the paint scheme to the brush effect of the bright green on the caripace. Weird. Nice video tho
I think there are some misconceptions here about your "wrong" Carnifex builds; ie, the quad devourer fex and the HVC/deathspitter fex. These two builds have by far the most tournament success for several reasons. Regarding the dakka/quad dev fex, it works very well in Kraken. It has decent range with 7" move, 18" guns, and can still advance ~5" if needed to get in range and hit on 4 (with enhanced senses, because you ALWAYS take that). They can clear chaff for your genestealers or take out targets you wouldn't want them to charge (ie, Drukhari Wyches). As far as the HVC/deathspitter fex, the problem isn't the setup - it's the hive fleet. NEVER take a carnifex in Kronos; they should be moving almost every turn. There have been some successful lists running 6+ of these guys as Jormungundr; in fact they are nearly perfectly suited for that hive fleet. Again, just look at the ways people are running them competitively to get an idea.
Quad-dev Carnifex can be pretty good as far as clearing bubble wrap units go. I would give it monstrous acid maw so it will at least have something to attack with when it inevitably gets tarpit in melee combat though. 4 attacks of S6 AP0 Damage 1 isn't exactly threatening even to Scouts, and since it cannot fall back and shoot, you gotta have some ways to break free from the combat or at least have something on you as a deterrent. As for HVC/Spitter, you are absolutely right. The point is to stop people from putting it in Kronos and just sit and shoot. There are way better units for that. Jorm's walk n' shoot style work very well with HVC, and should be considered as one of the option.
I like them, to me they are not A tier but at least B tier unit for sure. I wish they had some sort of invul save Most commonly I run the 115 pts variant (quad dev, senses, -1 to hit, sometimes bone mace)
I don't think the HVC + Deathspitter is 'just bad' I think what you mean to say is HVC + Deathspiiter and sitting still is bad. If you're a different Hive Fleet that loadout isn't bad.
Hey I thought I would post this list in your most recent video in case you don't look at your older videos in chat. I don't have a codex but here is the list at 99 power level which should be around 2k points. I haven't bought any tyranids yet but carnifex, swarmlord, genestealers, broodlord and old one eye are just awesome looking models but i also would like to be competitive. Battalion Detachment HQ - The Swarmlord - Broodlord Troops - 20 genestealers - 20 genestealers - 20 genestealers Spearhead Detachment HQ - Old One Eye Heavy Support - Carnifex - Carnifex - Carnifex
Assuming the Carnifex is using the build mentioned in the video (Spore Cyst, Enhanced Sense, Crushing Claw and Twin-Dev), this list is currently sitting at 1,639 Points, with 361 points left to spare if you are aiming for a 2K list. I would suggest to tone down the number of Genestealers though, they are deadly and worth every point, but taking this many does drain quite a bit of point. Hormagaunts are great alternatives for Genestealers, they are way cheaper, numerous, consolidate and pile in 6" in combat, which helps a lot when tying down opponent units. For the time being, I will recommend you to download battlescribe on your device and start messing with it, it contains all the point values as well as some core rules for Tyranid.
Timestamp for different types of Carnifex
1:40 Dakkafex (HVC + Deathspitter)
5:00 Dakkafex (Quad-Dev or Deathspitter)
8:08 Screamer Killer (Double Talons)
10:46 Hybrid (HVC + Crushing Claw)
Just found your videos, and as a new Tyranid player I find them interesting; I'm definitely subscribing. You're the first person I've seen who has recommended something other than 4x Devourer or Deathspitter+HVC. Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense as well.
Dude your advise is awesome so much clearer than when you ask elsewhere ....glad I found you before my carnifex brood arrives ! Subscribing ! Keep up the great work ,going to watch your other videos next !
Hello sir! Could you talk about the situation of Nids in the current state of the game and how to be as competitive as posible with them ?
Excellent video. Very direct and clear information.
Interesting take. I love how flexible Carnifex's are. Given their flexibility, I don't believe that there's only one way to run them correctly. You decide what role you want your Fex to play and design her to play that role.
Daniel Bishop, some builds are just subjectively more effective. build whatever you want, but efficiency is math.
How about quad dev and monstrous acid maw?
The poverty nid list used lots of hvc and deathspitters fexss in jormunger. They worked in the last because it also had 20 purestrain genestealers that could be cult ambushed t1.
thx for your analysis Tsumugi. you did not mention the Acid Maw Option for Carnifexs.
I play my Carnifexes with quad devourer, Acid Maw (instead of enhanced Senses), Spore cyste and Bone Mace
Interesting. I only have 3 Carnifexes (I do plan on eventually getting more for other loadouts) and they're set up with Heavy Venom Cannon and 2 Devourers using Hive Fleet Jormungandr to give them a cover bonus as they move up the field and reposition as needed. But then as I tend to play gunline style I treat them as I treat my Missle Launcher+Twin Lascannon Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes, and they work out fairly well. That said I only play on the local level which I'm sure is far from bein as competitive as say an ITC event or something along that level.
Agree. Between -1 to be hit and effective 2+ save, Jorm-fexes are really tanky for their points. And that extra durability is worth a lot more than +17% firepower while standing still.
I'm also fond of the Claw+Devourer+Tusks setup with a Custom Hive Fleet to ignore shooting penalties while advancing and +1 to hit on the charge. Getting a charge in for 5 attacks hitting on 3+s with S12 AP-3 D3 is sweet, sweet nectar against... Well, anything other than infantry, which really, is why you have the Devourers and Genestealers...
Hey again! Is there a video you have done for going against elite armies as tyranids? Elite as in imperial knights, custodes, etc?
Looking at it's codex entry, it seems clear the Carnifex is supposed to end up in combat at some point. But on paper at least I'm a bit cautious about -1 to hit with those claws on a 4 attack creature with a BS of 4. I know you get +1 on the charge (and you can charge a lot with Kraken but still that only equates to less that 2 hit's landed per turn, averaged between you and your opponent's fight phases. I'm thinking of taking a couple in Kraken and giving them scything talons and devourers and using them as a midfield threat. They should give a good account of themselves against anything under toughness 6 and if they tangle with anything tougher then they can use the 1 cp stratagem 'Voracious appetite' to reroll its wounds. Does this make sense do you think?
Actually, if -1 to hit with Claw is what you are concerned about, and you still want to have some form of mid-field threat. You can try the configuration Matt mentioned below. The Quad-Devourer with Monstrous Acid Maw Headmorph. You'll get 24 shots of S6 hit on 4s (Assuming you didn't advance), and if anything dares to come close, you can always attack them with S6 AP-5 Damage D3 attack that hit on 3s if you charge. That way you don't have to sacrifice one of your weapon slots for Talon while retaining the ability to hit with normal weapon skill.
Combined with the obligatory Spore Cyst, it's only 115 points per model. I have thought about this configuration before, but for some reason forgot to mention it in this video. Although I would say that I still prefer the configuration with Crushing Claw. This is because anything under toughness of 6 will be killed (or at least trapped) by my Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Flyrant anyway. The thing that I can't handle is usually toughness 7 or more, that's where Crushing Claw comes in.
All in all, if you want a Fex build that roams around in midfield, the Quad-Dev with Monstrous Acid Maw should be good. If you want a line breaker /second wave attack, crushing claw is more threatening. Hope this helps.
Those are good points thanks a lot. You might be right about needing something to take on higher toughness targets as I am running genestealers flyrants and hormagaunts.
I would like to request that you type this up and put it in the show more area so people can come back and read sections instead of trying to find it in the time line, or list what one you are talking about at what timestamp. Thanks for the information.
Great idea, on it.
Trippy music. Where does it come from?
I agree with your reasoning on the items discussed. However I think it depends more on what else you have. For example if you have many carnifexes the probability risk for hvc is reduced. If you have good screens the risk for being locked down for shooting is reduced. I'm personally running a mix of several variants. Hvc/DS 4 Dev but also a bunch of genestealers and enough rippers to cover out the board for deepstriking. Nothing is ever absolute 💯 however I think there are more variances that have value on our lovable former amor smashers
been waiting for this video, thanks :D
I hope you get round to reviewing Zoanthropes.. I've watched your videos I've recently started with Tyranids and I've got so much better
Thank you! Unfortunately I am currently stuck aboard due to the coronavirus, so I can't make videos anytime soon.
That sucks man sorry to hear. Yeah sorry from my own experience they are super durable and throwing down smite with a neurothrope in support is super satisfying.. love to hear what you think but more importantly be safe out there love your work keep it up
For kraken why not go with Crushing Claws, scything talons, bone mace, spore cysts, tusks and adrenal glands? Ya you can't shoot but, you can charge over and over and get use out of the tusks and living battering ram every time when it is in combat.. I have not yet tried it out but I think it sounds good.
Another way I see it Carnifex profile dose not drop with wounds so either way they will take some fire power off my small guys if they get taken out fast or they will make it and destroy lol. I also like to build my army to make my enemy have to pick what to try to kill while every thing is running to them.
Sorry im newish to nids but why would you take Crushing claws and scything talons? you can only distribute the attacks to one of the weapons and in general the crushing claws would be more effective then a single pair of scything talons (since you need 2 pairs to get the additional attack) so wouldn't it just be better to have some ranged weapons in that slot so you are effective at more ranges? thanks!
I noticed you didn’t mention stranglethorn cannons or thornbacks.
Is that because they’re so bad you discounted them? Or are they more of a mid tier?
Stranglethorn cannon is a specialized weapon designed to target horde units with bad saves. We already have Hormagaunt and Genestealer's Scything Talons to deal with such targets, therefore it is not even worth considering for Carnifex.
Tsumugi I like running it against armies like Tau, which generally have 12 man infantry squads that camp objectives / block deepstrikes. The extra range helps in the early game, but the d6 attacks could be better.
I run the genestealer cult 3” demolition charges, so early game ranged is important to give them room to deploy close enough to valuable targets
@@Dan_Tasty 12 man?
hey tsumugi, I'm disappointed that gsc and tyranid don't work really well together, but will you make a video on how to run gsc with tyranid like 75%tyty and 25% gsc or 50/50 or 25/75.... great vid on carnifex ! i played against ultramarines and custodes so is the devourer / spitter is better than heavy venom (I run 3 carni in jomurgandr)?
Deathspitter might be the better choice if you are facing marine and custodes. HVC sorta works for Jormungandr, due to the fact that the fleet encourages you to move and shoot, instead of advance and shoot like Kraken. However, I still recommend using Carnifex in Kraken, and just charge forward with OoE.
As for GSC, I don't own any model and theory crafting only gets me this far, but yes, I will talk more about ways how Tyranids and GSC can work together in the future.
Wow the carnifexs look almost a spitting image of the ones i had years ago, from the paint scheme to the brush effect of the bright green on the caripace. Weird. Nice video tho
Thanks man
great vod. But mark benning just use 2 dakkafexs and got 12th place in adepticon tho i think it might not that bad
Come back with 9th 40k!!
What is the best way to load out a carnifex?
The correct answer is to magnetize the damn things. Building an magnetizing three of them as I type this.
I think there are some misconceptions here about your "wrong" Carnifex builds; ie, the quad devourer fex and the HVC/deathspitter fex. These two builds have by far the most tournament success for several reasons. Regarding the dakka/quad dev fex, it works very well in Kraken. It has decent range with 7" move, 18" guns, and can still advance ~5" if needed to get in range and hit on 4 (with enhanced senses, because you ALWAYS take that). They can clear chaff for your genestealers or take out targets you wouldn't want them to charge (ie, Drukhari Wyches). As far as the HVC/deathspitter fex, the problem isn't the setup - it's the hive fleet. NEVER take a carnifex in Kronos; they should be moving almost every turn. There have been some successful lists running 6+ of these guys as Jormungundr; in fact they are nearly perfectly suited for that hive fleet. Again, just look at the ways people are running them competitively to get an idea.
Quad-dev Carnifex can be pretty good as far as clearing bubble wrap units go. I would give it monstrous acid maw so it will at least have something to attack with when it inevitably gets tarpit in melee combat though. 4 attacks of S6 AP0 Damage 1 isn't exactly threatening even to Scouts, and since it cannot fall back and shoot, you gotta have some ways to break free from the combat or at least have something on you as a deterrent.
As for HVC/Spitter, you are absolutely right. The point is to stop people from putting it in Kronos and just sit and shoot. There are way better units for that. Jorm's walk n' shoot style work very well with HVC, and should be considered as one of the option.
I was laughing at him insulting builds I didn't like either, then he called my main carnifex build redundant 😑
I like them, to me they are not A tier but at least B tier unit for sure. I wish they had some sort of invul save
Most commonly I run the 115 pts variant (quad dev, senses, -1 to hit, sometimes bone mace)
Mom I am on UA-cam! lol
I don't think the HVC + Deathspitter is 'just bad' I think what you mean to say is HVC + Deathspiiter and sitting still is bad. If you're a different Hive Fleet that loadout isn't bad.
Very good video
Awesome
Hey I thought I would post this list in your most recent video in case you don't look at your older videos in chat. I don't have a codex but here is the list at 99 power level which should be around 2k points. I haven't bought any tyranids yet but carnifex, swarmlord, genestealers, broodlord and old one eye are just awesome looking models but i also would like to be competitive.
Battalion Detachment
HQ
- The Swarmlord
- Broodlord
Troops
- 20 genestealers
- 20 genestealers
- 20 genestealers
Spearhead Detachment
HQ
- Old One Eye
Heavy Support
- Carnifex
- Carnifex
- Carnifex
Assuming the Carnifex is using the build mentioned in the video (Spore Cyst, Enhanced Sense, Crushing Claw and Twin-Dev), this list is currently sitting at 1,639 Points, with 361 points left to spare if you are aiming for a 2K list. I would suggest to tone down the number of Genestealers though, they are deadly and worth every point, but taking this many does drain quite a bit of point. Hormagaunts are great alternatives for Genestealers, they are way cheaper, numerous, consolidate and pile in 6" in combat, which helps a lot when tying down opponent units.
For the time being, I will recommend you to download battlescribe on your device and start messing with it, it contains all the point values as well as some core rules for Tyranid.
Tsumugi thanks for the super fast reply
All that matters is points...