If you extended the tip out 12 feet, what would you have? A big lever that could lift a car. Of course, it would be really slow too. Primitive man was trying to find the balance between leverage and speed. I’m not sure an English long bow is a better lever. They relied on the huge arms and chests of Welsh archers developed over years of practice and necessity. Why does a recurve work? Shorter, wider than a longbow, but curved tips to “let off” a little at the end of the pull (because the more horizontal the string the more let off). What you gain is maneuverability but they also have more hand shock than a longbow. What if you put siyahs on a mollegebet? Siyahs are a lever, angled to take advantage of being more vertical at length of pull, but they’re heavier too. They’re necessary though for a horn bow. I wonder if you could heat treat and bend a thin tip mollegebet into a siyah angle what you would get? Maybe that’s the answer too. Primitive man was talking to his neighbors and always asking, what’s a better bow design?
I never really though the holmgaard bow was designed to be a lever, or stiff tip either. There was a study done several years back that sealed the deal for me on that. www.academia.edu/11765815/Mesolithic_Bows_from_Denmark_and_Northern_Europe I think you are on right track on the genesis of the current Mollegabet design. Personally, I believe an innovative contemporary bowyer took the idea of the lever bow to its conclusion by keeping accurate statistics on the performance improvements of light, non-bending tips. I also believe that our ancient brothers had similar designs, to a degree, that may have looked and performed similar but have not survived due to that thin lever. I really enjoy your analytical posts.
I'm sure that there were bows that made use of that. I really don't like thinking it, but I'm starting to wonder if the "Mollegabet" bow sprang from the bow shown in the section "lessons from the past"... the bow built by one if the TBB authors accentuating the properties believed that one of the Holmegaard bows possessed, which I'm starting to believe that it didn't. It would now take a lot to convince me that any of the Holmegaard bows didn't bend throughout their limbs. Sadly, until I make enough waves and someone comes forward with a bow about 10,000 years old from the region of Denmark associated from Mollegabet, I have to say that I believe that what we are referring to Mollegabet bows isn't real. I do believe that people of old did make stiff, deepened narrow tip bows, but we need to find out who actually made them. Mollegabet is a mesolithic culture. Maybe these were made later by another people?
@@johnjriggsarchery2457 Time changes a great many things, for example, the hunting ground where the huts from Møllegabet stood, is now a place that is under water ! I bet you they didn't build their houses underwater back then. 😄
@@johnjriggsarchery2457 Heh, that is a consideration I guess, though at that point, it might as well be bow hunting swordfish! 😁 Also, I guess it's because they had a fire pit next to their houses, fire and water don't mix together very well. 😄
John, there is more to it. Why not go to the source?: www.google.com/search?q=m%C3%B8llegabet&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi67N2bk-7fAhUEESwKHcy2AioQ_AUIDigB&biw=1440&bih=837 Holmegaard and Mollegabet is just two of several more mesolithic bows from Denmark (a rather small area) that are variations on a theme: Split sapling bows mostly from elm. Study the archeological drawings and pictures of these bows and remember that what you actually are seeing are personal expressions by the bowyers of that time of what a descent bow is. I also think that they did just as little work on the staves as they could with their stone tools. Also as every stave was different, the bows ended up looking differently. What do you think of that?
I think that Mollegabet Bows were made such that someone heard or read how he would look like a bow without details. Maybe the problem was in wood. When I read about Mollegabet Bows, I was representing a bow much like the one you did. My personal opinion is that now mollegabet bows look like they are more expressive than yours, which is made according to the right criteria and because of this, they are something special. Your bow looks like a thiner pyramid bow.
I betcha that what we call Mollegabet bows don't actually have any connection to the Mollegabet culture. It would be really helpful if we could locate the first person to name them, and show the artifact they were based upon, and isolate the time, and by who it was made.
@@johnjriggsarchery2457 Well, Møllegabet is a place (small settlement under water, near Ærøskøbing), and the bow was named after the place it was found. The fragment was dug out by Langelands museum in 1987-1993, you could always ask them, the museum probably still have it. As for the culture, Møllegabet culture was a subculture to Ertebølle culture, I don't think it was a full culture in and of itself. I would link to stuff, but it's all in Danish, and I don't know if you can understand it.
Better not do that w hickory, haha nice. Better try it. Its crazy, its counterintuitive, Maybe compression weak, Need LESS, so the cramming forces dont exceed whatever. Cool stuff.
Howdy Ryan, Hickory. I haven't worked with hickory since my kids lived at home. Wow, 13, 14 years? Tough as all get outs but not my first choice so much unless I was doing a specific copy of a regional style that was primarily made in hickory. Interesting. Thank you for that.
Very interesting post!
Thank you.
If you extended the tip out 12 feet, what would you have? A big lever that could lift a car. Of course, it would be really slow too. Primitive man was trying to find the balance between leverage and speed. I’m not sure an English long bow is a better lever. They relied on the huge arms and chests of Welsh archers developed over years of practice and necessity. Why does a recurve work? Shorter, wider than a longbow, but curved tips to “let off” a little at the end of the pull (because the more horizontal the string the more let off). What you gain is maneuverability but they also have more hand shock than a longbow. What if you put siyahs on a mollegebet? Siyahs are a lever, angled to take advantage of being more vertical at length of pull, but they’re heavier too. They’re necessary though for a horn bow. I wonder if you could heat treat and bend a thin tip mollegebet into a siyah angle what you would get? Maybe that’s the answer too. Primitive man was talking to his neighbors and always asking, what’s a better bow design?
I never really though the holmgaard bow was designed to be a lever, or stiff tip either. There was a study done several years back that sealed the deal for me on that.
www.academia.edu/11765815/Mesolithic_Bows_from_Denmark_and_Northern_Europe
I think you are on right track on the genesis of the current Mollegabet design. Personally, I believe an innovative contemporary bowyer took the idea of the lever bow to its conclusion by keeping accurate statistics on the performance improvements of light, non-bending tips. I also believe that our ancient brothers had similar designs, to a degree, that may have looked and performed similar but have not survived due to that thin lever.
I really enjoy your analytical posts.
Maybe the mollegabet bows were variable draw length and power adjustable with those long stiff sections 🤔.
I'm sure that there were bows that made use of that. I really don't like thinking it, but I'm starting to wonder if the "Mollegabet" bow sprang from the bow shown in the section "lessons from the past"... the bow built by one if the TBB authors accentuating the properties believed that one of the Holmegaard bows possessed, which I'm starting to believe that it didn't. It would now take a lot to convince me that any of the Holmegaard bows didn't bend throughout their limbs. Sadly, until I make enough waves and someone comes forward with a bow about 10,000 years old from the region of Denmark associated from Mollegabet, I have to say that I believe that what we are referring to Mollegabet bows isn't real. I do believe that people of old did make stiff, deepened narrow tip bows, but we need to find out who actually made them. Mollegabet is a mesolithic culture. Maybe these were made later by another people?
Lets not forget that the Holmegård Bow is from 7000 BC and the Møllegabet Bow is from 5000 BC - That's a solid two thousand years of experimentation.
Howdy Grumpy ol' Boot. Very good point. It's easy to overlook the distance of time even though we both were around about that long.
@@johnjriggsarchery2457
Time changes a great many things, for example, the hunting ground where the huts from Møllegabet stood, is now a place that is under water !
I bet you they didn't build their houses underwater back then. 😄
@@Grumpy_old_Boot How do you know that they weren't a race of sea monkeys?
@@johnjriggsarchery2457
Heh, that is a consideration I guess, though at that point, it might as well be bow hunting swordfish! 😁
Also, I guess it's because they had a fire pit next to their houses, fire and water don't mix together very well. 😄
muddy waters = sleuths for gold... if the average height of a man was 5' 2" -9000 years ago, is the length of the bow appropriate or 'normal'?
You state a real point, and that's why I lengthened it proportionally for a taller person.
John, there is more to it. Why not go to the source?: www.google.com/search?q=m%C3%B8llegabet&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi67N2bk-7fAhUEESwKHcy2AioQ_AUIDigB&biw=1440&bih=837 Holmegaard and Mollegabet is just two of several more mesolithic bows from Denmark (a rather small area) that are variations on a theme: Split sapling bows mostly from elm. Study the archeological drawings and pictures of these bows and remember that what you actually are seeing are personal expressions by the bowyers of that time of what a descent bow is. I also think that they did just as little work on the staves as they could with their stone tools. Also as every stave was different, the bows ended up looking differently. What do you think of that?
I think that Mollegabet Bows were made such that someone heard or read how he would look like a bow without details. Maybe the problem was in wood. When I read about Mollegabet Bows, I was representing a bow much like the one you did. My personal opinion is that now mollegabet bows look like they are more expressive than yours, which is made according to the right criteria and because of this, they are something special. Your bow looks like a thiner pyramid bow.
I betcha that what we call Mollegabet bows don't actually have any connection to the Mollegabet culture. It would be really helpful if we could locate the first person to name them, and show the artifact they were based upon, and isolate the time, and by who it was made.
@@johnjriggsarchery2457
Well, Møllegabet is a place (small settlement under water, near Ærøskøbing), and the bow was named after the place it was found.
The fragment was dug out by Langelands museum in 1987-1993, you could always ask them, the museum probably still have it.
As for the culture, Møllegabet culture was a subculture to Ertebølle culture, I don't think it was a full culture in and of itself.
I would link to stuff, but it's all in Danish, and I don't know if you can understand it.
???????
Did a boat crash into the house and kill the stubborn little girl, or is this a ploy to make us tune in to the next episode ????
I wish I didn't wake up because I would have seen how it played out. There was an ocean liner coming towards the house when I woke up.
Better not do that w hickory, haha nice. Better try it. Its crazy, its counterintuitive, Maybe compression weak, Need LESS, so the cramming forces dont exceed whatever. Cool stuff.
Howdy Ryan, Hickory. I haven't worked with hickory since my kids lived at home. Wow, 13, 14 years? Tough as all get outs but not my first choice so much unless I was doing a specific copy of a regional style that was primarily made in hickory. Interesting. Thank you for that.
Some lecture : www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/holmgards-are-they-all-the-same-t23167.html