Thanks Justin, another excellent, thought provoking episode. Will have to go ponder your latest error correction consciousness idea, but I think you may be on to something by linking the sense of self to maintaining superposition coherence over time - keep up the good work!
This error correction also appears in Linguistics, were things like agreement keep the things within, say, a noun phrase in a coherent place through redundancy of the affixes in adjectives, or gender/noun class systems keeping the same paradigmatic patterns when used in free word order. In fixed word order languges (such as analytical languages such as Mandarin, Vietnamese, and to some extend English), the ordering itself prevents ambiguity through mantaining the same structure; even in question words. Very interesting how encoding information happens in this same pattern in languages as what you've described...
Curious! Terrence McKenna expressed that language is core to us eventually understanding how the universe works. Perhaps it is not a luxury science, but speaks to some of hte fundamentals.
The idea of how the concept of the brain/consciousness as a quantum computer grows from the principle of three worlds, is very convincing in many respects! However, I am puzzled that our brains (or at least my brain) are so slow and unable to process and comprehend exponentially large problems, when that is apparently a typical ability of a quantum computer... Maybe the reason is that there are only a few usable qubits in use due to error correction - or due to complete absence of any correction? Or, because the creation of consciousness alone is such a massive achievement that the capacity is no longer sufficient for demanding computational work.
What about ontogeny? Self definitely depends on learning and memory. Cf. Andy Clark's idea of error correction of prediction where the latter is tied up to learning and experience
I like the idea that we could build quantum computers using protein tubes, essentially grow a mini brain/processor with cellular printing technology, obviously input and output measurements would be tricky but not impossible, it would be similar to planting an unknown seed and seeing what type of flower or tree it grows into.
Maybe we need something like QFEB (Quantum Free Energy Principle) where Platonic World work as predictions, Physical World work as measurement's input and Mental World is errors correction mechanism?
Would this be the same error correcting code that seems to emerge as space-time in AdS universes? Also, is the new paper on proton spins in "brain water" significant in any way to Orch-OR?
This would imply when people are asleep or in a coma the microtubules will not be doing error corrections? thus the cytoskeleton must show some conformational changes across different states? Experimentally testable!
Topical! I am not that familiar with the Diosi-Penrose model. Based on my read of this article, they have a null finding related to radiation emission from objective reduction. First off, it's hard to draw conclusions from a null findings unless you trust/understand all the technical side of the experiment (which I do not). Perhaps this is truly evidence against the Diosi-Penrose model, although I would wait until others chime in. There are cycles in science where you can get a lot of traction by publishing "take-down" studies, but often these are their own form of hype. Second, this seems to be independent from the Hameroff-Penrose model as far as I can tell. Of course if OR falls apart, so does Orch-OR, but I'm not sure how fundamental the Diosi-Penrose model is. I wish I could answer more than that. Maybe I can get Hameroff to comment on this study (very challenging to get to talk to Penrose himself)
Two months may not be long enough for the OR to happen to whatever they were measuring. I don't want to pay to see the full article so i dont know if they mitigated for that or what metrics/assumptions they were using to justify 2 months being enough time for a good conclusion of null. I've seen Dr Hameroff mention in interviews that inert matter isolated in space could take millions of years to objectively reduce.
I found a talk with Stuart Hameroff done recently. Towards the end he mentions the paper supposedly debunking Orch OR: m.ua-cam.com/video/brp9okMhe50/v-deo.html It turns out that the model by Diosi and Penrose, though similar, are slightly different. When the scientists at Italy didn’t find Radiation, it disproved Diosi’s model but supported Penrose’s model.
@@AbhiN_1289 Oh yeah I watched this one too. That was a good interview. A solid comeback from him. I have an interview with him - posting soon - where he covers this topic as well.
Thanks Justin, another excellent, thought provoking episode.
Will have to go ponder your latest error correction consciousness idea, but I think you may be on to something by linking the sense of self to maintaining superposition coherence over time - keep up the good work!
Thanks!
This error correction also appears in Linguistics, were things like agreement keep the things within, say, a noun phrase in a coherent place through redundancy of the affixes in adjectives, or gender/noun class systems keeping the same paradigmatic patterns when used in free word order. In fixed word order languges (such as analytical languages such as Mandarin, Vietnamese, and to some extend English), the ordering itself prevents ambiguity through mantaining the same structure; even in question words. Very interesting how encoding information happens in this same pattern in languages as what you've described...
Curious! Terrence McKenna expressed that language is core to us eventually understanding how the universe works. Perhaps it is not a luxury science, but speaks to some of hte fundamentals.
The idea of how the concept of the brain/consciousness as a quantum computer grows from the principle of three worlds, is very convincing in many respects! However, I am puzzled that our brains (or at least my brain) are so slow and unable to process and comprehend exponentially large problems, when that is apparently a typical ability of a quantum computer... Maybe the reason is that there are only a few usable qubits in use due to error correction - or due to complete absence of any correction? Or, because the creation of consciousness alone is such a massive achievement that the capacity is no longer sufficient for demanding computational work.
What about ontogeny? Self definitely depends on learning and memory. Cf. Andy Clark's idea of error correction of prediction where the latter is tied up to learning and experience
I like the idea that we could build quantum computers using protein tubes, essentially grow a mini brain/processor with cellular printing technology, obviously input and output measurements would be tricky but not impossible, it would be similar to planting an unknown seed and seeing what type of flower or tree it grows into.
Definitely! The addition of quantum computation makes the chaotic emergence of life theories much more feasible IMO
Maybe we need something like QFEB (Quantum Free Energy Principle) where Platonic World work as predictions, Physical World work as measurement's input and Mental World is errors correction mechanism?
Would this be the same error correcting code that seems to emerge as space-time in AdS universes?
Also, is the new paper on proton spins in "brain water" significant in any way to Orch-OR?
This would imply when people are asleep or in a coma the microtubules will not be doing error corrections? thus the cytoskeleton must show some conformational changes across different states? Experimentally testable!
yeah additionally this type of thing could completely change how we view and treat mental conditions and brain damage
Ooooo thank you for this idea, Mengsen
what if mediators between synapses are the error correction gates?
Hmm, that is an interesting idea. As if the different neurotransmitters were activating different correction gates. More to think about...
Keep it up
Thanks!
what if fault error correction creates forms of autism and dyslexia or even multiple persalety disorder?
Speaking of ORCH OR related concepts, can you comment on this?:
phys.org/news/2022-06-collapsing-theory-quantum-consciousness.html
Topical! I am not that familiar with the Diosi-Penrose model. Based on my read of this article, they have a null finding related to radiation emission from objective reduction. First off, it's hard to draw conclusions from a null findings unless you trust/understand all the technical side of the experiment (which I do not). Perhaps this is truly evidence against the Diosi-Penrose model, although I would wait until others chime in. There are cycles in science where you can get a lot of traction by publishing "take-down" studies, but often these are their own form of hype. Second, this seems to be independent from the Hameroff-Penrose model as far as I can tell. Of course if OR falls apart, so does Orch-OR, but I'm not sure how fundamental the Diosi-Penrose model is. I wish I could answer more than that. Maybe I can get Hameroff to comment on this study (very challenging to get to talk to Penrose himself)
Two months may not be long enough for the OR to happen to whatever they were measuring. I don't want to pay to see the full article so i dont know if they mitigated for that or what metrics/assumptions they were using to justify 2 months being enough time for a good conclusion of null. I've seen Dr Hameroff mention in interviews that inert matter isolated in space could take millions of years to objectively reduce.
I found a talk with Stuart Hameroff done recently. Towards the end he mentions the paper supposedly debunking Orch OR:
m.ua-cam.com/video/brp9okMhe50/v-deo.html
It turns out that the model by Diosi and Penrose, though similar, are slightly different. When the scientists at Italy didn’t find Radiation, it disproved Diosi’s model but supported Penrose’s model.
@@AbhiN_1289 Oh yeah I watched this one too. That was a good interview. A solid comeback from him. I have an interview with him - posting soon - where he covers this topic as well.