When I lived in Park Avenue in 1979, I was curious about the bridge abutments on that road, so climbed up to the track bed and found Palace Gates station. It was largely intact with both platforms still in place. Rather sad to see all trace of it has been totally obliterated - you'd never know it had been there now. Nature is quick to reclaim old railways, but nowhere as quick as housing developments!
Normally I would decry the closing of a railway line, but for this effectively it was replaced by a generally (unless you worked in the Docklands) better service with the arrival of the Piccadilly Line.
I had not noted though as others mentioned the avoiding Zone 1 routing out Barking and interesting places beyond. It is always extra money to travel into London/Zone 1 when you would rather skirt around the edge. We need a Thames Tunnel linking Shoeburyness with Broadstairs
I was at Downhills Primary school in the early sixties and West Green station was almost next door. The platforms were in a deep cutting and you could look down on them from the Park. This cuttiing was somehow filled when the new secondary school was built. Trivia note: the empty station building was briefly used by the bank over the road whilst its building was refurbished. Must have been in 64 or 65.
Wow. I grew up right next to downhills park in the 2000s and I used to play there all the time as a kid, I never noticed that. I'm curious what the major changes to that area were since the 60s, must've looked completely different.
We used to live in a flat on part of the former railway above Palace Gates. Harringey Council has a completely different post code than the post office. The Gate pub near Alexandra Palace station is really good.
4:39 It's very likely that my great-grandfather George built a few of those Jazz Train coaches (if the Great Eastern took existing stock and just gave them a lick of paint). He was a journeyman coach bodies builder in the second half of the 1890s; started with the G.E.R and then moved to the L & S.W.R.
Very well done, as always. Thankyou. That sad, sad image of North Woolwich Station always brings back memories of it as a railway museum in the 1980s, proudly preserved, spotless windows and paintwork, enthusiastic volunteers, interesting displays for visitors...How on earth did it get into this state?
@@highpath4776 Well, also that central government has so completely obliterated grants to councils, that they have no discretionary funding left for things like museums. The DLR took over the North London Line extension from Stratford to Canning Town, then swerves north to run along the south side of King George V Dock. The remnant of the NLL to North Woolwich (via Custom House) has been taken over by Crossrail, but now the line goes into a new bit of tunnel about 0.5 km west of North Woolwich station, where it heads under the Thames to Woolwich station, then on to Abbey Wood. The line of the new tunnel appears to follow the line of the old surface track, i.e. it passes right under North Woolwich station. Whether there is scope for a Crossrail station here, I don't know. Crossrail platforms are 250 metres long. I'm not sure they'd be keen on putting a station on a curve. And likely the most attractive destination here is London City Airport, which is quite a bit to the west of the North Woolwich portal. The cutting itself is fairly shallow, immediately between A112 Albert Road and Factory Road, so there's not a lot of scope for putting a station in without diverting one of the roads. Google Maps' satellite view shows that there are (or were) some kind of staircases down to a platform-like area just before the actual portal itself, which is presumably where the tracks spread out into the two separate single-bore tunnels. Perhaps these are for maintenance access? I don't think any passive provision was made for a station in this area, unfortunately.
@@kruador Strictly the Land surface is now owned I think by a (community) church, the sub surface is owned or has the full wayleave of what is now Crossrail. I presume you can only grow Raddishes in Buckets on the soil, as the roots would belong to crossrail.
7.16 Excellent example of the other major traffic on these lines. A Charringtons coal merchants. These huts can be seen in station yards of east London. Now Taxi offices and Takeaways. The clean air act 1968 saw the end of them.
When I was little more than a baby I lived in Palmers Green, and I remember my parents saying “We're going to Ally Pally” before a trip out (this meant the park), and getting very excited about it. We moved to Coulsdon when I was two, so there were no more exciting trips out to parks, they were all quite boring.
I was born between the two lines to Wood Green and Palace Gates, lived there from 1947 to 1959 - Caxton Road, then Mayes Road. I had to walk alongside the line to get to primary school. Funny thing, as a trainspotter in the later years - you could see the line from my bedroom window - trains were a very rare occurence, I've hardly any recollection of trains at all here
It was closed before I saw it (born 1971) but I that was the line that ran past my grandmother's back garden in Wood Green. I always remember the bump in the back garden where air raid shelter was... between the house and a railway line. Just the spot to sit it out! I always wondered what the story of this line was, enough to have the motivation to want somebody else to research it and tell me.
My grandfather drove suburban trains out of Kings Cross for most of his working life. When the Palace Gates line had (I think) just closed, my grandparents took me shopping with them to Wood Green High Street. At one point my grandfather took us to somewhere just down a turning off the High Street and he showed me a place where the line ran alongside people's back gardens and I well remember him, with tears in his eyes, telling me that I should remember what it looked like because soon all railways would be closed down "Because of bloody cars". I would have been about 10 or so. I guess he and his colleagues felt very threatened at that moment by wholesale Beeching closures and didn't know where they would stop. He never owned a car so far as I know. He died in 1976, but I often think how great it might be to show him the railway resurgence of today and how, although it's all VERY different from what he knew, it lives on and thrives for certain kinds of transportation. He'd probably be cheered no end that the "Bloody cars" didn't have it all their own way after all 🙂
While sadly I never got to ride on the Palace Gates line, I do remember it being open and the three stations too when I was a boy. I used to get dragged, kicking and screaming, round the shops by my mum and gran on Saturday afternoons, usually to the Nag's Head on Holloway Road but sometimes, when the ladies must have drunk too much and were feeling a bit more adventurous, we'd go on the trolleybus (which made the shopping trips somewhat more worthwhile) to Wood Green shops which is where I first saw Noel Park station, a small squat concrete building with the bridge across the High Road at an acute angle. The entrance became a shop for a short time after closure, giving a chance to go inside, but this didn't last long and it became derelict until demolished in the 1970s to make way for the dreadful ghastly Wood Green shopping city. Today the Argos store of the shopping city stands on the site of Noel Park's entrance and though you'd never guess now that a railway had been there, there is a significant memorial outside the store where the roadway is lower than the pavements for a short distance which was necessary for trams and later trolleybuses and buses to get underneath the rather low railway bridge. This came in handy when building the shopping city as this spans both sides of the road and the lower roadway still helps modern day buses get under the now shopping city roof. Similarly, on Station Road between Noel Park and Palace Gates which was once crossed by a bridge on the same line, the roadway there is also lower than the pavements so that buses on the former 233 route could get underneath but the modern day gigantic buses on the W3 route have no trouble as both roadway and pavements are today wide open to the sky. Since the 1960s, with different travel patterns, not everyone wants to get into central London and if the Palace Gates to North Woolwich service had survived this would today be a direct and quick route to all the shops and department stores (if you like that sort of thing) in Stratford whereas to get there in 2023 from Wood Green you have to go halfway round the world first on buses that get stuck in traffic jams all the time. There is talk that if Crossrail 2 ever gets built (but don't hold your breath, it took 80 years or more for the Elizabeth Line to come to fruition), this will have a branch from Seven Sisters to New Southgate which will more or less follow the route of the old Palace Gates line as far as Wood Green but presumably below ground as the old line has been almost completely obliterated. Should a New Southgate branch be the case, it would seem that closing the Palace Gates line was extremely premature as using this rather than building a new line below ground would have saved a great deal of money. Kind regards, David, Crouch End, N8.
Jago, maybe it could be an interesting factoid to include when a branch is closed whether it would be of use to commuters today if it had remained open. I used to live in London in the 80s but have now moved down under so without maps I can tell if the closure of lines like these was a disastrous idea today or was a wise move! I saw your recent vlog on the never completed Northern line extension to Ally Pally and beyond and regret it was never undertaken. How would that improve or worsen commuting by the Northern line these days. Factoring in this into your videos would be of great interest to me and I’m sure many others. Lives could have been changed, suburbs further and better developed due to better connectivity to the city or thru the city had lines followed their ambitions and plans. Just a thought. Love your channel and your comedic timing. You are my snort to your dry humour!
A little bit more on Geoff Marshall's take on the line. Built mid 1970s and full of Asbestos and lack of the full compliment of department stores given the changes in retail. Might be changed into a more mixed use development. Further interesting nearby buildings include the former Chocolate factory and an interesting cinema
@@highpath4776 What former chocolate factory was that, HP? Barratt's Sweets certainly had a factory in Wood Green (where I lasted exactly one week early in 1971). A pretty awful place, inside and out.
@@Krzyszczynski Might have been Barratts. Its to the West Exit of the West Side Shopping Centre, up the road then bear a bit left. Doesnt really take fancy facilities to process Chocolate - was it the one that made Confeiture for catering use?
@@highpath4776 Sounds like it was Barratt's. I've since remembered it was in Mayes Road, which fits right in with your directions. Don't know about the chocolate side of things. I was having to deal with a ghastly machine that turned out lollipops. The hopper that fed the little sticks to it was always getting jammed.
I was born in Barratt Ave in 62 & we moved away in 72. The trackbed & stations were a bit of a forbidden but well used playground for us kids as far as West Green Road. The bridges were all intact & the track was still laid as far as the bridge over Park Avenue. Thus was to act as a siding that Charringtons used to shunt coal trucks into. The engine would push a manned brake van to the end of the platform to act as a temporary buffer then nudge 20 or so coal trucks down to it. There was quite a bang when they hit. One day, a few of us were playing in a nearby air raid shelter when the brake van arrived & the operator walked back up to the coal depot. We decided it would be fun to get in the brake van & experience the impact. We had no idea what the wheel in the middle of the floor was for & someone wound the brake off. When the weight of the coal trucks hit, the transferred inertia made us take off doen the remainder of the track. We hit the buffers & the rearmost wheels jumped sideways off the track. Being 7 or 8 years old at the time, it was scary but somehow didnt seem dangerous.
I go past some of the old parts of the line a couple times a week, and never knew about its history. Glad you covered it! Also, some tracks are still in place in the footpath between Ivatt Way and Langham Place
@@michaelmiller641 They still have double decker buses - the W3 - dodging the cars to the small and now chargeable car parks at the top (and deleted roadside parking...) - and the Ubers and the coaches, and courtesy buses from the bottom car parks on major day events, but none of that makes it 'accessible' from the station. I'm with those who suggest a Funicular from the station - or put the Parkland Walk back to Light Rail, or perhaps relocate the Dangleway from the Thames?😁
At last after all these years the old bridge to nowhere makes sense... i would never have thought those new houses were an old disused station. Thank you. 👍 the area hadn't changed much since 70s
As you say it's unusual for a line in London to be closed and not reused, incorporated into something else or slated for reopening. Followed the track on the erstwhile railmaponline. Easy to picture it. Thanks for the video.
Our house backed onto the railway between palace gates and Station Road. The bridge was removed but the dip in the road and the abutments remain. The last trains to run were the green coloured BR railcars powered by RR engines.
Thinking about it, London has been incredibly lucky when compared to the rest of the country, as there are few rail lines in London that closed without a sensible reason for them closing, i.e. because they weren't useful or became replaced by other forms of transport like the Underground. Of the ones that closed, only sections of the Northern Heights (e.g. Muswell Hill to Finsbury Park) are perhaps regrettable losses.
As a young lad living just off Station Rd Wood Green me and my mates would get up on the old train lines which by then were unused. Noel park and palace gates station were abandoned but we were able to get in and use them for various escapades 😁 Also we managed to get into Alexander palace station which was like stepping back in time as all the old posters from the 1950s were still up .
I clicked the link and was pleasantly surprised to recognise the commentator's voice. There are some very nice films in that archive, in colour and well worth watching for the mood. Is it just me but the track and ballast just appears so much better manicured and pristine than of now.
Interesting video as always, thank you. This is an area of North London that has seen so many lines proposed, built, removed, changed... fascinating! I kept expecting Geoff Marshall to pop up with a checklist for list railway lines in London... we had the allotments, the the railway related street names, abutment, bridges etc... 😉
I used to do an employment course run by the government in 1989. To alleviate boredom I used to find different ways to get to the place, I was going to in Wood Green. Some took longer than others, but I didn't care, because apart from occasion conversations, and some shopping, it was boring. One of those was to try combinations of routes on the Underground, the Overground, buses, the line out of Liverpool Street which is partially underground and the Kings Cross line to Alexandra Palace, the station of which with its odd platform numbering, inspired JK Rowling's Hogwarts Express platform. The other main thing to do was go shopping at various destinations on the way home, to see what interesting things I could find. Lost lines are always fascinated. ❤️
A forty odd year gap in my knowledge is now filled. Reading, many years ago, about London suburban services and there was mention of the "Jazz Trains" but no explanation of how the sobriquet arose. That gap is now filled.
Had a friend in Edmonton (and one in Enfield) that used the successor electric services into Liverpool Street to attend the university in the City of London. Mine was a Northern Line daily commute and others came in from Watford on the met.
Thanks for the Archive link, Jago - a great find. I've just spent ten minutes lost down memory lane (again!) on the IoW line frm Ryde to Cowes. That's as much as I can take though - too much steam has passed under too many bridges for me these days. When you get old, you think you're doing OK, but one day you wake up to discover that your childhood has become not just another time, but another planet too.
Just watched the video in the link and that was superb, its amazing to see how much railway there was in London, to be honest if it wasn't for videos like yours and Mr Marshall's , I would not know as much I do now , its very sad indeed how much has disappeared throughout not just London but the country as a whole , but in the days of cutting back on Britain's railways , no one would have known how much they could have been of use now....I suppose its a good thing that the building of new railways and reinstating old ones is something to be thankful for.....Thank you for another great episode and another thank you for the link supplied ....
Thank you for trip down memory lane. I remember the platforms at Seven Sisters survived for some year after closure. Also, apart from palace there was also a racecourse on the lower slopes until 1970 which held mainly evening meetings convenient for the City.
Another great video and about time I subscribed! As a child in the 70s, I was often taken to visit relatives who lived in Braemar Avenue. As per the map at 2:00, we would walk down St Michael's Terrace from the W3 bus stop on Buckingham Road, and then walk underneath the bridge (it was pedestrians only with steps leading down and then up from under the bridge) towards Braemar. I was always aware of the tracks at the end of Braemar but - until Geoff Marshall's recent video on this line - had absolutely no idea that these were the actual site of Palace Gates Station!
@tonearmgray9537 Also a child of the late 70s I have fond memories of visiting my grandparent's house at the end of Braemar Ave. No idea a station ever existed here! So its the other side of the track bed to your memories from Buckingham rd. The tracks were still there but no station, always wondered about this derelict track behind the wire fencing. Vivid memories of the spooky foot tunnel under the track to Buckingham/Dorset rd. Thanks for posting the video, Alan Snowdens video of the journey by train from North Woolwich to Palace gates is a real gem. Love reading other people's memories from a bygone era. I must be getting old !!
This may sound silly, but I just got really excited knowing you were at mere metres away from my house to shoot some footage for this video. It's always a delight watching your new entries, Jago!
I actually walked the route as much as is possible. I recall a rail bridge over a road near Wood Green though by the time I walked the line it had been removed. There is also another ex line in Edmonton north London that is now a walkway that leads to what is now Edmonton green shopping centre
When I was young, 1960’s and lived in Palmers green I used to catch the train to Alexander palace to train spot. Part of the trip was to walk to palace gates and play around the closed station. Sometimes a train would be parked there. I also remember trains running on the line through Noel park, but only freight.
In 1958 it must have been, my father took me on a special diesel train (when the others were still steam!) from Winchmore Hill to Noel Park, via the Palace Gates-Bowes Park link, for an exhibition of steam engines in the Noel Park yard. I also have vague memories of seeing steam trains on that route. Surprising it survived so long really.
Well, just when you think you know every single lost London line! I cannot tell you how excited I was when I saw the video title - I used to live on Wolseley Road right next to Ally Pally current station and walked through the old abutments hundreds of times - but that was before I became interested in ghost lines and so I hadn't remembered till today! Fabulous video. I do love the breadth of your knowledge and the way you present it. Just fantastic
Part of Palace Gates station platforms survive but they are inside Bounds Green Depot. When i drove for BR/EWS i would take charter train stock back to Bounds Green and the shunters there would tell me to stable the loco "round on Palace Gates", there were a couple of roads there, almost at right angles to the depot, that were used to stable odd locos that weren't part of the regular Inter-City/GNER allocation......
So pleased you have made this video. I used to play along this old branch line. We used to access it through Noel Park station, get up onto the formation and walk along to Palace Gates. Often we would play in the Charringtons Coal yard adjacent to Palace Gates, also (rarely) into Bounds Green depot as it was back then. On one occasion, from Wood Green High Road, I saw one of the recovery trains track lifting as it passed through Noel Park and onto the bridge where it stopped for several minutes. I used to go to the Cubs whose meetings were held in the church hall on Braemar Avenue. There used to be a pedestrian underpass just to the South end of the platforms at Palace Gates. Have you found the photographs relating to the BR rolling stock display which was held in the goods yard between Noel Park & West Green stations?
As a frequent trainspotter at Wood Green LNER station in the late 50s I remember that when a train arrived at Palace Gates one of the group would run over, get the number and run back to tell the rest of us. If any one of us had not seen it before (which was rare) they would go and look for themselves.
This is a similar story to the Crystal Palace High Level branch from Nunhead - the attraction it was built to serve burned down (as Alexandra Palace nearly did) and its function was duplicated by other railways and bus routes nearby
@@Krzyszczynski I remember seeing it burn again on my way home from work back in 1980 - it was a huge fire -it set the ongoing restoration back a long way. Fortunately it was all repaired and looks great these days.
I know this will never happen..... But I sort of wish that the picadilly line had a seperate extension line from turnpike Lane where we get more station up until Enfield town. Great video btw. It's crazy to think that the bridge I've been passing at turnpike Lane and the allotment adjacent to it was originally this railway
We used to cycle down to the old Palace Gates Station and hang about on the old platforms in the mid seventies. The tracks were still in place from south of Bowes Park Station to just east of Palace Gates where the bridge would’ve been over Park Avenue, but the station buildings had gone.
I live in this area at Muswell Hill and there have been several railways around the area notably to Alexandra Palace via Crouch End from Finsbury Park diverging into three lines branching out from Highgate. Some of the routes are now Parkland Walk and some old relics like the platform still exist at Crouch End. If only they would have kept them! It would have certainly been beneficial for a very busy area of North London but alas buildings have been built along the route so reinstating the old railway is but a dream!
Excellent production. I lived in Dorset Road from 1953 to 1969 and have a bucket of memories of the Station at Palace Gates both in operation and post-closure. I have also built quite a large library of photos mainly from the late 50's and early 60's - as well as that snowbound day in January 1963 that saw the last Passenger service. Such a shame it couldn't have been mothballed but who could see ahead 50 years in 1962 when the decision to close was taken. Today, it could be been fully electrified and connected into the GN Hertford Loop; and a new Station at Noel Park incorporated into Shopping City. Would have been very well subscribed now - but at the time, the decision was (sadly) the correct one.
Great video, Jago! This lost railway really is an enigma. Maybe it's a combination of it being relatively less well-known, and virtually nothing remaining of it. Fascinating info. Thanks very much 👏🏾👏🏾
Very interesting - thank you! I lived in Crouch End and then Muswell Hill when I was a child (1950's/60's.) I can still remember grown-ups moaning about the decline of Palace Gates station - good practice for moaning about Dr Beeching in later years!
I did once travel from North Woolwich to Palace Gates behind a Class 31. I was in the front compartment of the first coach and could feel the vibration from the diesel engine.
The nail in the coffin fortheline was true Piccadilly line extention. That is when the line really went into decline. Actually freight traffic continued until October. 1964
If the line had shown greater commercial promise, or if the Great Eastern had been more bold they could have tunneled into the hill under the palace and had lifts up to the surface. The tunnel would have been very short and with sufficient ventilation it might have worked!! Bet Swiss Railways would have done that 🙂they were crazy for audacious engineering like that!
Damned inconvenient not having a train right up to the gates of Ally Pally. It would make my visits to exhibitions so much easier. Thanks for the linking video. I shall leg over there presently.
It's said that there is a remains of one of the Palace Gates platforms is in the Bounds Green Depot. Also another indication of the route is in Station Road, N22, west of Wood Green Station, the roadway dips, but the pavement doesn't, just about where the line would have crossed on another bridge.
part of the depot is called "Palace Gates", just to confuse visitors to said depot who don't know the history or geography of the area around Bounds Green depot (which these days is run by Hitachi to try to keep their Azuma trains running....)
Between the Hull Trains… train… passing through in one shot, the caption on North Woolwich, and the ‘jazz trains’ aside, this video really hit the mark for me. And was, as ever, highly informative and entertaining.
Appreciated the Fast Show “Jazz Club” reference at 5:02 … “Niiiiiiice…” Well played sir!
yes definitely!
Was about the comment the same myself!
When I lived in Park Avenue in 1979, I was curious about the bridge abutments on that road, so climbed up to the track bed and found Palace Gates station. It was largely intact with both platforms still in place. Rather sad to see all trace of it has been totally obliterated - you'd never know it had been there now. Nature is quick to reclaim old railways, but nowhere as quick as housing developments!
Lovely Fast Show reference
Niiiice
"You are the Jazz train to my Palace Gates" - YOU SCOUNDREL sir!
Normally I would decry the closing of a railway line, but for this effectively it was replaced by a generally (unless you worked in the Docklands) better service with the arrival of the Piccadilly Line.
I had not noted though as others mentioned the avoiding Zone 1 routing out Barking and interesting places beyond. It is always extra money to travel into London/Zone 1 when you would rather skirt around the edge. We need a Thames Tunnel linking Shoeburyness with Broadstairs
@@highpath4776 ideally from Tilbury to gravesend, instead of being so far out
@@generalgrievous5615 I'll take that. Wonder why a vehicle ferry was never put in place - was there one before the Dartford Tunnel ?
@@highpath4776 there is a ferry from Gravesend to Tilbury
@@leeclegg2943 Passenger rather than vehicle. Waiting for Jago to Cover it - even if his oyster card runs out at Rainham Marshes
I was at Downhills Primary school in the early sixties and West Green station was almost next door. The platforms were in a deep cutting and you could look down on them from the Park. This cuttiing was somehow filled when the new secondary school was built. Trivia note: the empty station building was briefly used by the bank over the road whilst its building was refurbished. Must have been in 64 or 65.
I've probably been watching Unforgotten too much, because I'm pretty sure there'll be a couple of bodies in that filled cutting! :)
I remember the station building being used by Charrington coal merchants
Not certain but I think this is the setting for a scene in the film "Paperhouse" - ua-cam.com/video/bzrFbPcUaMU/v-deo.html
@@robertb7918 That’s Highgate High Level Station
Wow. I grew up right next to downhills park in the 2000s and I used to play there all the time as a kid, I never noticed that. I'm curious what the major changes to that area were since the 60s, must've looked completely different.
Enjoyed the Fast Show Jazz Club reference. Grrreat 👌.
We used to live in a flat on part of the former railway above Palace Gates. Harringey Council has a completely different post code than the post office. The Gate pub near Alexandra Palace station is really good.
4:39 It's very likely that my great-grandfather George built a few of those Jazz Train coaches (if the Great Eastern took existing stock and just gave them a lick of paint). He was a journeyman coach bodies builder in the second half of the 1890s; started with the G.E.R and then moved to the L & S.W.R.
When you spot the Fast Show reference... nice.
Very well done, as always. Thankyou. That sad, sad image of North Woolwich Station always brings back memories of it as a railway museum in the 1980s, proudly preserved, spotless windows and paintwork, enthusiastic volunteers, interesting displays for visitors...How on earth did it get into this state?
Newham Council
@@highpath4776 Well, also that central government has so completely obliterated grants to councils, that they have no discretionary funding left for things like museums. The DLR took over the North London Line extension from Stratford to Canning Town, then swerves north to run along the south side of King George V Dock. The remnant of the NLL to North Woolwich (via Custom House) has been taken over by Crossrail, but now the line goes into a new bit of tunnel about 0.5 km west of North Woolwich station, where it heads under the Thames to Woolwich station, then on to Abbey Wood.
The line of the new tunnel appears to follow the line of the old surface track, i.e. it passes right under North Woolwich station. Whether there is scope for a Crossrail station here, I don't know. Crossrail platforms are 250 metres long. I'm not sure they'd be keen on putting a station on a curve. And likely the most attractive destination here is London City Airport, which is quite a bit to the west of the North Woolwich portal. The cutting itself is fairly shallow, immediately between A112 Albert Road and Factory Road, so there's not a lot of scope for putting a station in without diverting one of the roads.
Google Maps' satellite view shows that there are (or were) some kind of staircases down to a platform-like area just before the actual portal itself, which is presumably where the tracks spread out into the two separate single-bore tunnels. Perhaps these are for maintenance access? I don't think any passive provision was made for a station in this area, unfortunately.
@@kruador Strictly the Land surface is now owned I think by a (community) church, the sub surface is owned or has the full wayleave of what is now Crossrail. I presume you can only grow Raddishes in Buckets on the soil, as the roots would belong to crossrail.
7.16 Excellent example of the other major traffic on these lines. A Charringtons coal merchants. These huts can be seen in station yards of east London. Now Taxi offices and Takeaways.
The clean air act 1968 saw the end of them.
I like the Fast Show reference, Jago.
Theydon Bois on drums and Stamford Brook on Bass...
When I was little more than a baby I lived in Palmers Green, and I remember my parents saying “We're going to Ally Pally” before a trip out (this meant the park), and getting very excited about it. We moved to Coulsdon when I was two, so there were no more exciting trips out to parks, they were all quite boring.
I love this line. I’m a community nurse in this area and I love observing the abandoned areas (when I get time in between patients….)
Finally! Having just moved to the area I had so many questions about this
I was born between the two lines to Wood Green and Palace Gates, lived there from 1947 to 1959 - Caxton Road, then Mayes Road. I had to walk alongside the line to get to primary school. Funny thing, as a trainspotter in the later years - you could see the line from my bedroom window - trains were a very rare occurence, I've hardly any recollection of trains at all here
It was closed before I saw it (born 1971) but I that was the line that ran past my grandmother's back garden in Wood Green. I always remember the bump in the back garden where air raid shelter was... between the house and a railway line. Just the spot to sit it out!
I always wondered what the story of this line was, enough to have the motivation to want somebody else to research it and tell me.
My grandfather drove suburban trains out of Kings Cross for most of his working life. When the Palace Gates line had (I think) just closed, my grandparents took me shopping with them to Wood Green High Street. At one point my grandfather took us to somewhere just down a turning off the High Street and he showed me a place where the line ran alongside people's back gardens and I well remember him, with tears in his eyes, telling me that I should remember what it looked like because soon all railways would be closed down "Because of bloody cars". I would have been about 10 or so. I guess he and his colleagues felt very threatened at that moment by wholesale Beeching closures and didn't know where they would stop. He never owned a car so far as I know.
He died in 1976, but I often think how great it might be to show him the railway resurgence of today and how, although it's all VERY different from what he knew, it lives on and thrives for certain kinds of transportation. He'd probably be cheered no end that the "Bloody cars" didn't have it all their own way after all 🙂
Great post, Alan. I have managed to live without a 'bloody car' most of my 69 years - it can be done!
@@paulhaynes8045 Indeed depending on where you live it is wholly possible to live without a car.
While sadly I never got to ride on the Palace Gates line, I do remember it being open and the three stations too when I was a boy. I used to get dragged, kicking and screaming, round the shops by my mum and gran on Saturday afternoons, usually to the Nag's Head on Holloway Road but sometimes, when the ladies must have drunk too much and were feeling a bit more adventurous, we'd go on the trolleybus (which made the shopping trips somewhat more worthwhile) to Wood Green shops which is where I first saw Noel Park station, a small squat concrete building with the bridge across the High Road at an acute angle. The entrance became a shop for a short time after closure, giving a chance to go inside, but this didn't last long and it became derelict until demolished in the 1970s to make way for the dreadful ghastly Wood Green shopping city. Today the Argos store of the shopping city stands on the site of Noel Park's entrance and though you'd never guess now that a railway had been there, there is a significant memorial outside the store where the roadway is lower than the pavements for a short distance which was necessary for trams and later trolleybuses and buses to get underneath the rather low railway bridge. This came in handy when building the shopping city as this spans both sides of the road and the lower roadway still helps modern day buses get under the now shopping city roof. Similarly, on Station Road between Noel Park and Palace Gates which was once crossed by a bridge on the same line, the roadway there is also lower than the pavements so that buses on the former 233 route could get underneath but the modern day gigantic buses on the W3 route have no trouble as both roadway and pavements are today wide open to the sky. Since the 1960s, with different travel patterns, not everyone wants to get into central London and if the Palace Gates to North Woolwich service had survived this would today be a direct and quick route to all the shops and department stores (if you like that sort of thing) in Stratford whereas to get there in 2023 from Wood Green you have to go halfway round the world first on buses that get stuck in traffic jams all the time. There is talk that if Crossrail 2 ever gets built (but don't hold your breath, it took 80 years or more for the Elizabeth Line to come to fruition), this will have a branch from Seven Sisters to New Southgate which will more or less follow the route of the old Palace Gates line as far as Wood Green but presumably below ground as the old line has been almost completely obliterated. Should a New Southgate branch be the case, it would seem that closing the Palace Gates line was extremely premature as using this rather than building a new line below ground would have saved a great deal of money. Kind regards, David, Crouch End, N8.
4:59 Fast Show reference, love it.
Jago, maybe it could be an interesting factoid to include when a branch is closed whether it would be of use to commuters today if it had remained open. I used to live in London in the 80s but have now moved down under so without maps I can tell if the closure of lines like these was a disastrous idea today or was a wise move!
I saw your recent vlog on the never completed Northern line extension to Ally Pally and beyond and regret it was never undertaken. How would that improve or worsen commuting by the Northern line these days.
Factoring in this into your videos would be of great interest to me and I’m sure many others. Lives could have been changed, suburbs further and better developed due to better connectivity to the city or thru the city had lines followed their ambitions and plans.
Just a thought.
Love your channel and your comedic timing. You are my snort to your dry humour!
Wood Green Shopping City is a whole new rabbit hole I didn't think I needed, what an interesting looking building.
A little bit more on Geoff Marshall's take on the line. Built mid 1970s and full of Asbestos and lack of the full compliment of department stores given the changes in retail. Might be changed into a more mixed use development. Further interesting nearby buildings include the former Chocolate factory and an interesting cinema
@@highpath4776 What former chocolate factory was that, HP? Barratt's Sweets certainly had a factory in Wood Green (where I lasted exactly one week early in 1971). A pretty awful place, inside and out.
@@Krzyszczynski Might have been Barratts. Its to the West Exit of the West Side Shopping Centre, up the road then bear a bit left. Doesnt really take fancy facilities to process Chocolate - was it the one that made Confeiture for catering use?
@@highpath4776 Sounds like it was Barratt's. I've since remembered it was in Mayes Road, which fits right in with your directions. Don't know about the chocolate side of things. I was having to deal with a ghastly machine that turned out lollipops. The hopper that fed the little sticks to it was always getting jammed.
I was born in Barratt Ave in 62 & we moved away in 72.
The trackbed & stations were a bit of a forbidden but well used playground for us kids as far as West Green Road.
The bridges were all intact & the track was still laid as far as the bridge over Park Avenue.
Thus was to act as a siding that Charringtons used to shunt coal trucks into. The engine would push a manned brake van to the end of the platform to act as a temporary buffer then nudge 20 or so coal trucks down to it.
There was quite a bang when they hit.
One day, a few of us were playing in a nearby air raid shelter when the brake van arrived & the operator walked back up to the coal depot. We decided it would be fun to get in the brake van & experience the impact.
We had no idea what the wheel in the middle of the floor was for & someone wound the brake off. When the weight of the coal trucks hit, the transferred inertia made us take off doen the remainder of the track. We hit the buffers & the rearmost wheels jumped sideways off the track.
Being 7 or 8 years old at the time, it was scary but somehow didnt seem dangerous.
I go past some of the old parts of the line a couple times a week, and never knew about its history. Glad you covered it!
Also, some tracks are still in place in the footpath between Ivatt Way and Langham Place
Why was the Battle of Waterloo named after a railway station? Why was Paddington station named after a teddy bear? It's all very confusing...........
Indeed sir. Along with than, I also wonder why so many English cities and towns are name after US towns. Very puzzling.
@@delurkor It gets worse. Greek Gods named after British war ships. Why?
..................and, why are Oxford and Cambridge always in the final of the Boat Race?
And what I'd like to know, is why is there only one monopolies commission!! Hmm?
Same reason the Location of Offices Bureau was based in London, I guess ...
shame they didn't have a cable railway to the top of the hill, something the loco could attach to once it approached.
Or better still, something like the one at Lynmouth, no power needed - just water.
They did have a tramway to the top of the hill operated by single deck trams
@@michaelmiller641 They still have double decker buses - the W3 - dodging the cars to the small and now chargeable car parks at the top (and deleted roadside parking...) - and the Ubers and the coaches, and courtesy buses from the bottom car parks on major day events, but none of that makes it 'accessible' from the station.
I'm with those who suggest a Funicular from the station - or put the Parkland Walk back to Light Rail, or perhaps relocate the Dangleway from the Thames?😁
At last after all these years the old bridge to nowhere makes sense... i would never have thought those new houses were an old disused station. Thank you. 👍 the area hadn't changed much since 70s
As you say it's unusual for a line in London to be closed and not reused, incorporated into something else or slated for reopening. Followed the track on the erstwhile railmaponline. Easy to picture it. Thanks for the video.
Love these old black and white train pictures
This is my local area, and while the history of what is now the Parkland Walk is well-known, this line has been much less well covered - thank you!
This was a nice look at a long gone and seemingly redundant passenger loop. I wish that the States had something fascinating like this.
Nice.
Our house backed onto the railway between palace gates and Station Road. The bridge was removed but the dip in the road and the abutments remain. The last trains to run were the green coloured BR railcars powered by RR engines.
Thinking about it, London has been incredibly lucky when compared to the rest of the country, as there are few rail lines in London that closed without a sensible reason for them closing, i.e. because they weren't useful or became replaced by other forms of transport like the Underground. Of the ones that closed, only sections of the Northern Heights (e.g. Muswell Hill to Finsbury Park) are perhaps regrettable losses.
What a delightful channel, the Alan Snowdon Archives. Thank you for mentioning it.
Thanks for watching, great to be able to share my old archive and support Jago's historically significant explainers.
As a young lad living just off Station Rd Wood Green me and my mates would get up on the old train lines which by then were unused. Noel park and palace gates station were abandoned but we were able to get in and use them for various escapades 😁 Also we managed to get into Alexander palace station which was like stepping back in time as all the old posters from the 1950s were still up .
I clicked the link and was pleasantly surprised to recognise the commentator's voice. There are some very nice films in that archive, in colour and well worth watching for the mood.
Is it just me but the track and ballast just appears so much better manicured and pristine than of now.
Interesting video as always, thank you. This is an area of North London that has seen so many lines proposed, built, removed, changed... fascinating!
I kept expecting Geoff Marshall to pop up with a checklist for list railway lines in London... we had the allotments, the the railway related street names, abutment, bridges etc... 😉
And a number of places where "nothing remains" ... think I got a BINGO on his card! 😎
I used to do an employment course run by the government in 1989. To alleviate boredom I used to find different ways to get to the place, I was going to in Wood Green. Some took longer than others, but I didn't care, because apart from occasion conversations, and some shopping, it was boring. One of those was to try combinations of routes on the Underground, the Overground, buses, the line out of Liverpool Street which is partially underground and the Kings Cross line to Alexandra Palace, the station of which with its odd platform numbering, inspired JK Rowling's Hogwarts Express platform. The other main thing to do was go shopping at various destinations on the way home, to see what interesting things I could find.
Lost lines are always fascinated. ❤️
Interesting piece of North London forgotten rail history. New ro me! Excellent as always
Fascinating videos. I don't live in or near London, and the urban scenery reassures me I'm in the right place.
A forty odd year gap in my knowledge is now filled. Reading, many years ago, about London suburban services and there was mention of the "Jazz Trains" but no explanation of how the sobriquet arose. That gap is now filled.
Had a friend in Edmonton (and one in Enfield) that used the successor electric services into Liverpool Street to attend the university in the City of London. Mine was a Northern Line daily commute and others came in from Watford on the met.
Thanks for the Archive link, Jago - a great find. I've just spent ten minutes lost down memory lane (again!) on the IoW line frm Ryde to Cowes. That's as much as I can take though - too much steam has passed under too many bridges for me these days. When you get old, you think you're doing OK, but one day you wake up to discover that your childhood has become not just another time, but another planet too.
"The Jazz Trains.....*nice*" - always love a Fast Show reference
The Palace Gates line would have gone virtually outside my old flat in West Green. Funny to see Seven Sisters again!
Just watched the video in the link and that was superb, its amazing to see how much railway there was in London, to be honest if it wasn't for videos like yours and Mr Marshall's , I would not know as much I do now , its very sad indeed how much has disappeared throughout not just London but the country as a whole , but in the days of cutting back on Britain's railways , no one would have known how much they could have been of use now....I suppose its a good thing that the building of new railways and reinstating old ones is something to be thankful for.....Thank you for another great episode and another thank you for the link supplied ....
12pm Sunday, must be time to get up, after I have watched this
Thank you for trip down memory lane. I remember the platforms at Seven Sisters survived for some year after closure. Also, apart from palace there was also a racecourse on the lower slopes until 1970 which held mainly evening meetings convenient for the City.
Another great video and about time I subscribed! As a child in the 70s, I was often taken to visit relatives who lived in Braemar Avenue. As per the map at 2:00, we would walk down St Michael's Terrace from the W3 bus stop on Buckingham Road, and then walk underneath the bridge (it was pedestrians only with steps leading down and then up from under the bridge) towards Braemar. I was always aware of the tracks at the end of Braemar but - until Geoff Marshall's recent video on this line - had absolutely no idea that these were the actual site of Palace Gates Station!
@tonearmgray9537 Also a child of the late 70s I have fond memories of visiting my grandparent's house at the end of Braemar Ave. No idea a station ever existed here! So its the other side of the track bed to your memories from Buckingham rd. The tracks were still there but no station, always wondered about this derelict track behind the wire fencing. Vivid memories of the spooky foot tunnel under the track to Buckingham/Dorset rd. Thanks for posting the video, Alan Snowdens video of the journey by train from North Woolwich to Palace gates is a real gem. Love reading other people's memories from a bygone era. I must be getting old !!
This may sound silly, but I just got really excited knowing you were at mere metres away from my house to shoot some footage for this video. It's always a delight watching your new entries, Jago!
Fascinating, amusing, and entertaining all at the same time. Thank you, Jago !
I walked the route some time last year. Difficult to follow in places, but there's a lot of interesting infrastructure still visible.
I actually walked the route as much as is possible. I recall a rail bridge over a road near Wood Green though by the time I walked the line it had been removed. There is also another ex line in Edmonton north London that is now a walkway that leads to what is now Edmonton green shopping centre
I went on it a few times to Stratford. Splendidly scruffy and run-down.
You have produced another excellent video thanks.
I would have thought they were called Jazz trains because they change tempo randomly.
Yeah...
When I was young, 1960’s and lived in Palmers green I used to catch the train to Alexander palace to train spot. Part of the trip was to walk to palace gates and play around the closed station. Sometimes a train would be parked there. I also remember trains running on the line through Noel park, but only freight.
Excellent video. The Jazz Club 'Nice' was a great reference. Also vaguely ages you.
In 1958 it must have been, my father took me on a special diesel train (when the others were still steam!) from Winchmore Hill to Noel Park, via the Palace Gates-Bowes Park link, for an exhibition of steam engines in the Noel Park yard. I also have vague memories of seeing steam trains on that route. Surprising it survived so long really.
Lovely nostalgia trip in my neck of the woods - thanks XX
Well, just when you think you know every single lost London line! I cannot tell you how excited I was when I saw the video title - I used to live on Wolseley Road right next to Ally Pally current station and walked through the old abutments hundreds of times - but that was before I became interested in ghost lines and so I hadn't remembered till today! Fabulous video. I do love the breadth of your knowledge and the way you present it. Just fantastic
Lovely seeing you in this neck of the woods, and learning more about it! Great video, thank you!
Another excellent video, Jago. Abandoned railways are a rarity in London so it’s good to see one highlighted.
Part of Palace Gates station platforms survive but they are inside Bounds Green Depot. When i drove for BR/EWS i would take charter train stock back to Bounds Green and the shunters there would tell me to stable the loco "round on Palace Gates", there were a couple of roads there, almost at right angles to the depot, that were used to stable odd locos that weren't part of the regular Inter-City/GNER allocation......
So pleased you have made this video. I used to play along this old branch line. We used to access it through Noel Park station, get up onto the formation and walk along to Palace Gates. Often we would play in the Charringtons Coal yard adjacent to Palace Gates, also (rarely) into Bounds Green depot as it was back then. On one occasion, from Wood Green High Road, I saw one of the recovery trains track lifting as it passed through Noel Park and onto the bridge where it stopped for several minutes. I used to go to the Cubs whose meetings were held in the church hall on Braemar Avenue. There used to be a pedestrian underpass just to the South end of the platforms at Palace Gates. Have you found the photographs relating to the BR rolling stock display which was held in the goods yard between Noel Park & West Green stations?
Perfect video ! !
As a frequent trainspotter at Wood Green LNER station in the late 50s I remember that when a train arrived at Palace Gates one of the group would run over, get the number and run back to tell the rest of us. If any one of us had not seen it before (which was rare) they would go and look for themselves.
This is a similar story to the Crystal Palace High Level branch from Nunhead - the attraction it was built to serve burned down (as Alexandra Palace nearly did) and its function was duplicated by other railways and bus routes nearby
My granny saw it burning - at the time, she lived in Highgate - to see it all that way, it must have been one hell of a conflagration 😳
@@bordershader My Mum told me about seeing that - she was 12 at the time. Her family lived in Dartmouth Park Hill.
Alexandra Palace burned down only a matter of weeks after it first opened in the 1870s - a shattering blow for the sponsors.
@@Krzyszczynski I remember seeing it burn again on my way home from work back in 1980 - it was a huge fire -it set the ongoing restoration back a long way. Fortunately it was all repaired and looks great these days.
I know this will never happen..... But I sort of wish that the picadilly line had a seperate extension line from turnpike Lane where we get more station up until Enfield town.
Great video btw. It's crazy to think that the bridge I've been passing at turnpike Lane and the allotment adjacent to it was originally this railway
We used to cycle down to the old Palace Gates Station and hang about on the old platforms in the mid seventies. The tracks were still in place from south of Bowes Park Station to just east of Palace Gates where the bridge would’ve been over Park Avenue, but the station buildings had gone.
I live in this area at Muswell Hill and there have been several railways around the area notably to Alexandra Palace via Crouch End from Finsbury Park diverging into three lines branching out from Highgate. Some of the routes are now Parkland Walk and some old relics like the platform still exist at Crouch End. If only they would have kept them! It would have certainly been beneficial for a very busy area of North London but alas buildings have been built along the route so reinstating the old railway is but a dream!
Good afternoon everyone
Good afternoon to you to, sir
At last, thanks to you Jago, I now know how it came to be known as "The Jazz"😊
I’m toying with the concept of a fuller video on the service.
Always interested in these stories even if it was a failure one. Good video, Jago!
Thank you for the link. Extremely interesting to see what was.
Good stuff, as usual, Mr H. Thanks. Simon T
Excellent production. I lived in Dorset Road from 1953 to 1969 and have a bucket of memories of the Station at Palace Gates both in operation and post-closure. I have also built quite a large library of photos mainly from the late 50's and early 60's - as well as that snowbound day in January 1963 that saw the last Passenger service. Such a shame it couldn't have been mothballed but who could see ahead 50 years in 1962 when the decision to close was taken. Today, it could be been fully electrified and connected into the GN Hertford Loop; and a new Station at Noel Park incorporated into Shopping City. Would have been very well subscribed now - but at the time, the decision was (sadly) the correct one.
Great video, Jago! This lost railway really is an enigma. Maybe it's a combination of it being relatively less well-known, and virtually nothing remaining of it. Fascinating info. Thanks very much 👏🏾👏🏾
Surprisingly, this is now the new route for Crossrail 2
4:59 this is why I love Jago's videos.
Interesting, the Greenwich Park branch may be worth a look as another of the few defunct London lines.
Very interesting - thank you! I lived in Crouch End and then Muswell Hill when I was a child (1950's/60's.) I can still remember grown-ups moaning about the decline of Palace Gates station - good practice for moaning about Dr Beeching in later years!
I think the planned Crossrail 2 alignment will roughly follow the route of this line.
The 1960s video link was fascinating.
I can only assume you did this video before/after going to the railway exhibition in Alexandra Palace! :D
Upon seeing that tunnel on the thumbnail, I instantly knew it had a relation to railways.
Nobody was expecting a performance by Nick Knack No........Yes. Grrrrreat!
Interesting - keep going & thank you 🙂🚂🚂🚂
I did once travel from North Woolwich to Palace Gates behind a Class 31. I was in the front compartment of the first coach and could feel the vibration from the diesel engine.
Great video Jago
Very interesting video from New Zealand
The nail in the coffin fortheline was true Piccadilly line extention.
That is when the line really went into decline.
Actually freight traffic continued until October. 1964
lovely part of London.
If the line had shown greater commercial promise, or if the Great Eastern had been more bold they could have tunneled into the hill under the palace and had lifts up to the surface. The tunnel would have been very short and with sufficient ventilation it might have worked!! Bet Swiss Railways would have done that 🙂they were crazy for audacious engineering like that!
You can still see a stub of the tline at Seven Sisters! Btw great video sir!
Damned inconvenient not having a train right up to the gates of Ally Pally. It would make my visits to exhibitions so much easier. Thanks for the linking video. I shall leg over there presently.
It's said that there is a remains of one of the Palace Gates platforms is in the Bounds Green Depot. Also another indication of the route is in Station Road, N22, west of Wood Green Station, the roadway dips, but the pavement doesn't, just about where the line would have crossed on another bridge.
part of the depot is called "Palace Gates", just to confuse visitors to said depot who don't know the history or geography of the area around Bounds Green depot (which these days is run by Hitachi to try to keep their Azuma trains running....)
WoW: Never knew Wood Green shopping 🛍 centre was previously a railway station 🚉??
Wow this basically tour of my home town
Between the Hull Trains… train… passing through in one shot, the caption on North Woolwich, and the ‘jazz trains’ aside, this video really hit the mark for me.
And was, as ever, highly informative and entertaining.