DCA Super Sabre Vanes - TEST and REVIEW
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2022
- Testing and review of the Super Sabre Vanes from DCA Custom Arrows. I've shot and tested these vanes this winter through spring to put together enough information for this review video.
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Good to see you turning out videos again - was worried you had given up UA-cam. Keep at it - there are a lot of people who appreciate your time and testing.
Excellent use of your engineering background to explain how fletching works and how the configuration and orientation can have significant impact on noise and steering. Additionally, some of the slow motion footage of your shooting showed some bow vibration, despite all the design efforts and accessories designed to minimize it. Fascinating. Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed content.
Yea its pretty crazy watching things in slow motion. One thing I've wanted to buy is an actual high speed, though "affordable" camera like a Chronos but haven't been able to justify it. When you get around 1000 fps it even helps identify clearance or tune issues, especially with traditional bows.
I love me some DIY reviews. Love how he nerds out on this stuff! 🤙🤙
Some of the best videos on YT by far.
Thanks!
Really appreciate your technical approach. Thanks again.
I like the looks of it. You have provided some good information on these. I believe I’m going to try some. Thank you
Thank you Garrett! Very concise, good information.
Thorough review! Gonna give these a try.
Great in-depth review.
I'm loving my Quickspins! They just do it for me! 🔥👍
I really like how you are testing the sound level. Seems like no one really tests that.
Would love your analysis of the firenock arrow and component system compared to a more standard arrow setup.
The vast majority of these improvements will never be seen by most folks , as with a well tuned setup most folks aren’t accurate enough for the benefit to be apparent. Interesting technical information either way.
Thanks great review 👍
They look interesting. Might have to give them a try. Good info Garrett.
I got the same message did you find this to be legit Andy Nguyen
Just my luck! 😀 I was going to IM you to get recommendation for quiet vanes, saw this video, and they are stock.
Great video thanks.
Good review thank you! Of course last night at 9PM I finished stripping off X3 vanes and re fletching 12 arrows with Blazers with right Helical in Arizona easy Fletch mini max.
I wake up and see this video in my feed.
🤦 🤷
Maybe next year…I think the blazers will work good for this year. In my testing Blazers seem louder but more stable and forgiving with broad heads than x3’s that I had on last season.
Blazers are still a good hunting vane for that stability reason. I used them all last year. And right helical will still get the arrow spinning much quicker than a factory 1deg right offset.
@@DIYSportsman thanks Garrett good luck this season.
Nice video man, thank you.
Good job
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and findings on this vanes. The ease of install alone have me very interested. They have been in my cart 🛒 on Lancaster for a while since they sell out so quickly. I want to build my own arrows instead of just buying factory and want a good all around vane. I do wish that they were available in other colors though.
I think Kyle mentioned working on a few other colors like flo orange and yellow, etc but is also focusing on inventory levels for the white first and foremost.
@@DIYSportsman awesome to hear. I have no problem with all white vanes, even though depending upon the target might be difficult to see without walking up.
Flo Orange 🍊 Yellow and Flo Green aka Chartreuse would be the other 3 colors that I would eventually add, perhaps Flo pink too.
Yes have to get the inventory levels to ideal before broadening the palette 🎨 especially in todays supply crisis world. Thanks
Thanks for testing with the whisker biscuit! So In your summary, I was waiting to hear if there is any significant advantage to start stripping my arrows. It appears that these are inline (worked as good as )with other vanes in the video.
Depends on what you're shooting now. If you're coming from something like blazers or max hunters, and prioritize every bit of sound reduction, they'd be worth changing. If you are coming from a low profile vane and trying to shoot fixed blade broadheads, then switching to any of these should help with stability. I intentionally tested against other profiles I figured would be similar and also are popular. In hindsight I should have included even more styles as well.
@@DIYSportsman you are spot on with your assumption. I have been shooting Blazers then tested out max hunters then switched back to blazers. The max hunter flew tighter than the Blazers with field points but opened up my groups with my Thunderheads 100gr. so I went back to Blazers for the hunting season. I am not so concerned on sound because I only shoot 40yds or less on whitetails.
The green cap gel gorilla glue is the best glue I've ever used.
Wonder if you could test all three arrows again with field points for noise to rule out any broadhead noise that may have occurred during your original tests?
All of my sound testing was done with field points.
Great video, I was thinking about trying these vanes. Can you review some aerovanes?
I will see if I can get some to test. The claims are that the vane style works best with the full system and high speeds, but I'm sure many are interested in their performance as a standalone with normal arrow build parameters.
I have been using the Gateway Feathers Batwing with the back end trimmed vertically to a 3” fletch with a high helical from the Ez Fletch. I’m shooting 220 fps, ~718 grains with 22% FOC, broadheads ranging from Valkyrie Jagerbomb, bishop 315 single bevel, Simmons Treeshark and great whites, iron will solid side 200’s, and Meathead classics.
I’ve got solid arrow flight with field points out to 92 (my sight tape range) and broadheads out to 85 (contact issues with scope housing at different ranges, furthest possible scenario at 85.)
I can definitely tell feathers are much louder than plastic, but I’ve got a total of 6 grains weight from 9” of fletch compared to 18+ grains for 6.75” of fletch. Unless the animals this year react much more strongly to the noise I’ll be sticking with feathers. But for a target setup, these look like a great option with the helical and how stable they are.
I did a somewhat similar set up a couple years ago. 660 grains with a grizzlystik momentum, single bevel head, and 4x2" gateway rayzors trimmed to a vertical back edge. I only shot one buck with that particular setup, but it was inside 15 yards so sound wasn't really an issue and it performed well. Mostly I didn't like the scratchy noise the feathers made when you brushed them against something and how easily they damaged. It's always an ongoing debate if deer react to the sound of the bow or the arrow. I think on longer shots it has to be the arrow, but closer shots it's a bit more gray area and tough to say.
@@DIYSportsman I would say when they are closer they react to the loud explosion of the bow. It’s by far the loudest noise of a shot. At distance, that sharp noise from the bow is muffled by the open environment, trees, etc while the arrow gets louder the closer it gets to them. I also believe the sudden and loud noise from the bow sounds more similar to a predator breaking cover to get a prey item and that is less scary for a prey animal the farther away they are since they have more time to react or assess the danger. But that’s just my opinion.
Great video…. Wish I saw it a few months ago. Maybe before I did a bunch of the same testing on fletchings this year. Except far less technically
My final 2 were the Sabre (2.5 degree) and the Max hunter (max helical). Both worked close out to about 70 yards. For me the Sabres shot noticeably better groups at longer distances beyond 70 yards.
I’m lucky and have a long backyard range… even if it is in a windy place. So I definitely did test them in the wind, from a lot of different directions and speeds. The sabres definitely seemed to be less wind affected.
Awesome, great to hear that feedback on the wind!
I shoot max hunters, are they really worth the extra $15?
I just bought a pack of 100 hunters for 20 bucks
@@tylerclark4213 Will look to Noah to see if he could provide some additional thoughts. Often times the accuracy piece can be dependent on a particular setup. Stability wise they’ll be "close" since they're both around the same high profile.
For me it was worth it
I have better stability and resistance to wind at longer ranges. I’ve got a few 3D events coming up
From under 70 yards both the max hunters and the Sabres were money
Would like to see how the q2i fusion x2 compares with these vanes
The Fusion II would be a more apples to apples comparison. I have used the Xii in the past and needed 4 fletch to be able to shoot fixed blade heads as they're a little lower profile
What kind of video camera and what frame rate does it have? Watching the slow motion arrow release shows that you have a good tune on your bow.
The really slow stuff was a Sony AX700 at 960 fps. The crisper slow motion was Sony A7Siii at 4k120p
@@DIYSportsman thanks!
I wonder how well these would do in the wind. I'm from Wyoming and that's a top consideration when choosing a vane set up
One of these days I'll have to find a place with a big field I can set up a ground blind and shoot out of to isolate the arrow performance.
why not just shoot from beside your garage so it's not impacting your ability to hold steady?
@@caninphx It still swirls around the edge a bit, but the bigger problem is that the wind isn't consistent over the length of the range due to trees. It's always variable and gusty. I need a much more wide open space where I can get a more consistent direction and speed over the length of the range.
I’m in Montana… so yeah wind…. I feel kinda weird when I don’t have to fight the wind
For me the Sabres were the best I tested in the wind
Would love to purchase some of these
That's awesome thank you. I sent a text to the number listed
Just sent my info over to the number that I texted to receive the RX7
Great video and review! Kyle is an awesome dude and I love these vanes. The shoot super well. What made you go with a left helical vs a right helical?
It's just to match the natural rotation of my arrows going out of the bow. I haven't been able to prove it's better, though I speculate that it could only help with the arrow rotating more quickly out of the bow in non-perfect scenarios like a fixed blade broadhead and slight crosswind.
@@DIYSportsman how did you find out the natural rotation of your arrows? Kyle has fletched mine right helical and I’ve just continued that on. They rotate super well and the video so it makes me curious what mine do haha
put a mark on your bare shaft facing up and shot close into A target you'll see what way the arrow starts to turn. it has to do with what direction your strings were twisted together
@@ckhughes117 Yep Brenton's got it. Also Levi Morgan has a video showing how to do it as well on UA-cam. I did a bunch of slow mo testing with it when I had a bunch of Zinger fletches in various angles and L/R. When you had a good amount of offset or helical, even the opposite spin still gets the arrow rotating pretty quickly. Usually it's not unless you're shooting like a factory fletch 1deg that you might see the arrow start spinning one way and then slowly start spinning the other.
I've seen a video where they said the spin is from the way your serving is wrapped and not really the string. They said most serving goes from bottom to top so that makes most arrows spine left.
You mentioned the heat vanes and I was wondering, I shoot the heat vane in a 3 fletch max helical configuration. With mechanicals they work perfect but I want to switch to the QAD exodus broad head. Do I need to add a fourth vane
Personally I'd either add a fourth vane or go to a higher profile vane in the 3 fletch.
Are you getting any parachuting (or fishtailing) at distance with the mini max and Sabre vanes?
No, mine have been flying clean all the way out. If you're shooting in a strong crosswind you can get a little fishtailing, which also depends on your arrow set up, but that will happen with any vane.
I have an epsilon coming in,
how do you like it? Will you do a video on it?
Yes I like it and will cover it briefly in my upcoming hunting setup overview.
I just got my Super Sabres the other day, but am waiting for my new arrows. I’m trying to decide if I should go max helical with the EZ Fletch or 2.5 offset with the Bitz. Since you tried out both, did you notice any differences between the two configurations?
Very marginal differneces. At 80 I didn't notice much change in POI, I was able to group broadheads just as well with the 2.5deg, they still spin a ton as seen on the slow motion, and I think the 2.5 deg looks a little cleaner. The max helical may have been a touch louder but it is splitting hairs.
@@DIYSportsman thank you for your feedback and the awesome video!
Can these be used in a 4 vane configuration too or are they designed for only using as a 3 vane config?
Yes. Most likely 3 will be sufficient, but you could definitely use a 4th if you want the extra forgiveness.
Curious on the Victory… what are your thoughts on XImpact or Axis 4mm LRMG? And why you choose Victory? Cheers!
Generally I find myself using 0.204" arrows instead of 4mm or 0.166" because the lighted nocks are more durable and I prefer a HIT and collar over a half-out and collar. I do use the Rampages some and they're a great option. Actually, one of my traditional bows I'm using Rampage, and another bow I've got set up with Axis. Both are great shafts in terms of spine consistency. The axis is a little higher in GPI for the spine, making it tougher to hit a particular weight and FOC range. The RIP TKO has been really durable for me, despite being pretty lightweight for a 250 spine. And the spine numbers still come out pretty consistently for what I've tested. I've done some experimenting with the RIP XV. They aren't as durable of a shaft but do offer some other options for overall setup with some reinforcement. If you've got no issues with the potential drawbacks of 4mm though, I'd say both the BE and Easton options are good in my book.
@@DIYSportsman thanks, had worries the gpi never shifts much on those RIP shafts, I’ll give them a shot next year…
Will you be using the iron will broadheads this season?
I will for my traditional bows, and for compound probably a mixed quiver of Iron Will and Sevr. I've also been impressed by the B3 Destrukt and may use those as well.
Ever do any similar testing with the Max Hunter? I’m torn between that vane and the Super Sabre. I see Iron Will did some testing and the winner was the Max Hunter.
Yes. Broadhead flight was good out to 40 and similar speed erosion at that range with both but the max hunter was louder compared to the sabre. Performance is just one metric looked at when deciding on a vendor for manufacturing.
@@DIYSportsman thanks. My number one concern is accuracy and then things like noise, durability, weight, etc. would come into play.
Do you ever have issues with your broadhead unscrewing with left helical
No, however I also typically screw my broadhead into the insert and then hot melt the whole thing in place, like they show on the installation video for Snyder core components (the same concept works for other insert styles).
Have you had a chance to evaluate the Sabre Minis yet? Is there an advantage for one over the other? I’m about to get some of the supers but I’m curious as to what your opinion on the minis might be?
I shot some minis side by side with the regular Sabres and some Tac driver 2.0's, primarily for sound as I had only got them shortly before hunting season. In testing with three different mic setups, they sounded roughly equal, and on some of the set ups the super Sabres measured the lowest peak sound of the group. That wasn't intuitive, and Kyle mentioned that in live tests (having someone shoot toward you with a safe barrier) or measuring with cell phone, minis are quieter. So I'm going to do a little more experimenting with my sound test setup. As far as forgiveness, the best 6 shot broadhead group I've recorded has been with Super Sabres and sevr 1.5.
@@DIYSportsman thank you for the in depth and thoughtful response.
I would be interested in hearing more about your mini testing. Great content you always have!
I'll likely be doing a follow up including them later this spring / early summer, and probably will have some comparative data with the new aae airrzr and tac driver vanes as well.
Did you try these with the iron will wide 150?
Yes. They are still in my opinion a shorter range head even with these vanes in a 3 fletch. If you wanted extra forgiveness with those heads a 4 fletch probably wouldn't be a bad idea. But with good form and tune with a 3 flerch I'd feel comfortable.
Bona fide killer says a bunch of nerdy details. 😆
have you tried firenocks aerovanes? specifically the Av2's?
I have not. I've looked at them historically but the list of exceptions (only recommended for low profile broadheads, full containment rest instead of dropaway, minimum speeds, perfect nock travel, etc) gave hesitation. I can't remember where, but I thought I remember from either their literature or a lecture from Dorge that you really needed a high degree of precision on the straight fletch (could have just been sales push for jig). It gave thr impression that they might work well in optimal conditions but require a high degree of precision to make everything work (which has been my experience with their nocks). It might be worth trying the concept though. There's not a ton of testing posted on them that I've been able to find.
@@DIYSportsman I use them and have their jig (you can use a normal jig with these vanes,, I have tried and it worked well, the av3's well you really need his clamp due to the wing tip bend at the end of the vane). They work with a drop away rest (hamskea epsilon, trinity hunter pro) zero issues. I never bought into his high degree of precision for installation with these, as long as they are straight they can also handle a bit of offset as well, but it wasn't much.
The av3's, I would just use for target shooting, they do not like broadheads though, can't recall the term he uses (gyroscopically stabilized or something like that), although i have had success with iron will/day six and annihilator, which are premium heads. A lot of other heads i tried the head seemed to take over and the vanes couldn't compenstate enough. Seemed to cork screw the arrow although it flew straight.
The av2's are where they shine in my opinion. They stabilize very quickly, due to the high rate of spin, are fairly quiet and i have found them to work with a lot of broadheads I have tried. It could also just be my tune, but they seem to work fairly well, and people love them for crossbows and long range shooting.
His nocks are great, the lighted nock portion, ugh. As you mentioned they require some precision with the end shock cap in order for them to work. I have a cpl shafts with his battery stuck in them, I have since done away with all lighted nocks as i would rather have a higher FOC up front then deal with nocks failing (nocturnals, firenock, lumenock, etc). They all have their issues.
@@caninphx Good to know you can use a normal jig. I may experiment on a shaft to have a point of comparison since they are so different. I really like his CTI tubes for durability. I've even ground a shelf onto HIT inserts to use them in conjunction with the CTI and the arrow becomes nearly indestructible with a collar. Just a lot of work. I like a lot of things about his nocks too, though the throat is so small I nearly always have to reserve the string, and I have had several split while shooting. I'd imagine they progressively weaken every time you drop them on something hard to turn them off. And I've had a couple of the end caps slide further into the shaft where they're tough to remove. But when I was using FOBs those were the only lighted nocks I'd use.
@@DIYSportsman hmm, I have never had one break during use or split and I shoot a heavy draw weight (90-100lbs). They are rated for bows over 90lbs if you click on the nocks and the additional info page. When buying new strings, I always talk to my string manufacture and tell them the throat size of the nocks I'm using, always works, but I reserve bow strings all the time anyways, as i find they don't use enough tension on the serving jigs so you get separation under the dloop.
I'd just buy his clamp.or his jig (expensive) but I do a lot of fletching for others and the laser alignment tool, means I can just replace the damaged fletching and not all three. Sometimes, the hard helical are hard to match. Also depends on how much time it's going to take.
He makes fantastic stuff, which a lot of people do not buy into. I also feel like a lot of it is oversold as the next best thing. It usually is better, but it is not light years better.
@@DIYSportsman the fobs I really liked. Hated having them on the very end of the arrows though. That drove me nuts, I started tinkering with drilling them out to fit the shaft like you were. It worked I just found that it was more of a pain then what it was worth. Honestly the best flying arrows, I have ever used though, to this day, I still keep a few around in the bag for those days I'm out and I ruin fletching or I'm shooting long range.
So how do you think these veins would perform being shot out of crossbows averaging 405 to 420 FPS,,
I asked Kyle. He said design wise they should continue to work well at those high speeds. I would tend to agree. But I'm not aware of anyone yet who has shot them from a crossbow.
@@DIYSportsman Send me a set I'll be the 1st,,,, I shoot killer instincts Swat X1,,Fatal X,, Boss 405,, Furious Pro 9.5,, and the Mission Sub-1XR crossbow,,,, I shoot primarily 2 weights 500 grains and 550 grains,, I'm very high FOC,,, Would love to make a few videos and send them to you
@@DIYSportsman I have asked about these veins being shot out of a crossbow do you think they would do well the response was yes what do you think about sending the exit to testing,, I could Fletch them myself or take them to my local archery shop to have them professionally attached
Has anyone tried these with a 4 fletch??
Go to the Walmart annlo9k at fabric glue all use....you have to cut them off drys flexible
How well do these adhere on an arrow wrap?
They stick well as long as you clean the wrap and base of the vane
@@DIYSportsman appreciate it Garrett!
Any updates on these vanes? Do you intend to stick with them?
I've continued to use them, and have tried out the newer 2.0 that replaced the originals I used in this video. They have a finer aesthetic being made at a different molding shop and still share the rest of the characteristics. I have continued using them. I picked up some tac vanes and firenock aerovanes to compare against, but right now these are the vanes to beat for me.
@@DIYSportsman
Two follow-up questions:
1. Some people talk about the super sabres getting a bit wavy, have you experienced that?
2. Dorge mentions a few times that aerovane 2 achieves around 200 rotations per 20 yards, once it gets going. The aerovane 3 supposedly achieving 300 rotations per 20 yards. It seems to me, works out to 100-150 degrees of rotation per inch of forward travel, depending on aerovane 2 or 3, respectively. My concern is whether penetration on a quartering shot will be upset when one blade starts to cut, outside the rotating axis, while the arrow is trying to turn 100-150 degrees over the length of that blade, while the other blade is not yet in contact. Could you include such a test? I worry there’s a lot of room for disaster when we try to stop that rotation with one blade while hoping we retain the same forward motion.
1. The 2.0 version of the vanes (which are the only ones you can buy) seem to have improved most of the early material complaints. They changed molders and made a tweak to the material. Some of the old ones had little curls at the front edge, but that's gone now. Repeated pass throughs could give a little bit of wave on them, though I tested the bad ones, like that one I showed that went through a bag target, and even with that one I couldn't measure a performance difference.
2. I am a little skeptical on the extremely high spin rate. Arrows don't need gyroscopic stability because their center of pressure is behind the center of gravity. I tested really high spin a little with 6 fin, 6deg offset zingers. They did penetrate less deeply into a fresh block target with broadheads compared to lower spin like 3 or 1 deg, moreso than would have been explained by just drag. You have that rotational kinetic energy built up, and it usually seems to dissipate at impact with the arrow going straight through. That was on straight impacts as well. I should test angled like you mentioned. I will say that if I was going to shoot an extreme spin rate setup, I'd want to pick a broadhead meant to stand up to those side loads at impact, maybe even a single bevel or one of the firenock heads, and also do testing at long range to check for instability/parachuting. I noticed a little of that with the 6fin/6deg offset zingers.
Looking forward to the comparison to tac vanes
For the algorithm
Got these vanes and huge improvement.- these are crazy better. The spin induced is efficient for long range and although glued on helical, the tail fins shape of the vanes works like incredible. The extra height in profile works like a longer lever both for earlier spin stabilization and cuts air like a straight off-set but seemingly at a lower frequency of sound. ua-cam.com/users/shortsX8jn6w-PoHQ?si=LOdGQGuU_ni0L1q5 These will change the industry. I want more size options to experiment with.
I wasn't impressed enough to switch away from Q2i. The Super Sabres were a tad quieter than Rapt-X (Blazer profile, but stiffer/quieter) but not as quiet as a 3 inch Griff-X. Broadhead flight wasn't any better than Rapt-X and they are more expensive.
The Super Sabres didn't stick nearly as well as Rapt-X.
Good to hear your thoughts. Out of curiosity were you using Loctite 401 or a different glue? I had used Q2i at one point in the past too and liked them quite a bit as well.
@@DIYSportsman I did not use the Loctite 401, I used the blue top Gorilla glue since it's more readily available and less expensive. It's worked great on Q2i, blazers, AAE hybrid, and Easton Diamond vanes.
I just haven't found a vane as easy to fletch and as durable as the Q2i lineup.
These kind of look like the Max Hunter
Yea there are some similarities with that shield cut. If you look at DCA's Instagram feed you'll see a lot of older builds with Max Hunters. I havent shot the Max Hunters, though they have a reputation for being good for broadhead stability but also louder, like a Blazer.
that sound is FKN QUIET!!!!!!! NICE
Would you say there is a advantage or disadvantage to fletching 2° or 3° for those of us who don’t have the ability to fletch 2.5°?
No I wouldn't worry over a half degree. Either one of those settings are likely to be fine.
Thank you. I bought these and I’m going to use them on my upcoming hunt.
Easy to fletch my ass ive used 2 different glues and tried wraps and they do not and i repeat do not stick total junk
Did you wipe down the vanes with alcohol first? Which adhesives did you try? Were they fresh? After they updated materials, Kyle really like the Bob Smith Maxi Cure glue, though I've still had good adhesion from other glues like Loctite professional from the hardware store. The key with those glues is tossing them if they're old, storing them in a cool, dark place (we even refrigerate most adhesives at work). Then cleaning the shaft and base of vane, and getting a really good, tight contact surface. Dry fitting the vane first in the jig before applying glue can help ensure the jig is set up optimally.