Robert, i feel ive got to thank you for this little group of talks covering Green and Nash.... you do it with non' chalance, and verifiable evidence..... Up until then they were names within the milieu, university wits, and of course i hadnt read them.... Now, after the dozens of parallels, the Burleigh letter, the dates, the handwriting, the apparent invisibility of Nash.....all seem to fall into place without so much as a squeak. I remember that same sensation reading J.T. Looney, so thank you for the richness of this content that i would otherwise not have an inkling. Its truly remarkable
Wow! I'm convinced! When we think about Oxford's mischievous sense of humour...perhaps best illustrated in the "licensed fool" Feste...this taking on of a persona...especially to satirize his enemies, and to support the Earl of Oxford (se ipse!)...must have been irresistible. Clearly Harvey knew what was going on, but was just too afraid to let the cat out of the bag and become "one of the famousest autors in England".
In your presentation about Robert Greene, you depict Greene's supposed life and career as a kind of purposeful 'echo' of Ovid. If Oxford was the one who actually wrote the Robert Greene oeuvre, intending it to be himself in an Ovidian persona, then might it not be possible that by writing the Thomas Nashe oeuvre, Oxford was again purposely echoing some other famous writer's life and literary output? If so, then whose life and career might the Nashe persona be echoing? That of another Roman poet? A Greek poet? A post-classical writer -- maybe an Italian author whose works he had come to know due to his 15-to-16 month trip to the Continent? Whose literary output most closely resembles that of Thomas Nashe?
Re Ovid, just to add that I recently read a compendium of Nashe's works to see if I could find my own parallels to Oxford/Shake-speare...the first remarkable fact that struck me like a lightning bolt was the number of quotations from Ovid...they were legion! About three or four times more frequent, at my hasty reckoning, than all the other Latin authors combined. This is certainly enough to begin to surmise that Prechter is on the right track!
@@benc8834 But Prechter's thesis was that Oxford's 'Ovid'-like persona was 'Robert Greene'. If Oxford was ALSO behind the 'Nashe' output, then I still think he ought to be a persona representing some 'type' OTHER than Ovid. I'll ask it again, in another way: In what ways were Greene and Nashe DIFFERENT from one another, such that Greene could be compared to Ovid and Nashe to some predecessor OTHER than Ovid? In Dante's INFERNO [Canto IV], when Virgil brings him to the Limbo where Virtuous Pagans are doomed to spend Eternity (because they didn't know & believe in the Christian revelation), Dante joined a group of 5 pagan poets -- Homer, ['poeta sovrano' = 'sovereign poet', i.e. the poet who rules over the group, perhaps because he predates these other (Roman) poets], Horace, Ovid, and Lucan -- along with Virgil, whom the call 'l'altissimp poeta', i.e. 'the loftiest poet', i.e. the best of them. Might not Oxford-as-Shakespeare have gone through an 'Ovidian' phase when he wrote as 'Robert Greene' . . . only to then enter another phase, whereupon he wrote other works in the personae of Homer, Virgil, Horace and Lucan, too? I'm not saying that Oxford DID do this, mind you. I'm merely wondering whether or not he MAY have done so, using those other famous poets of antiquity as typological sources, with his 'Nashe' persona perhaps modeled on one of those other four Big Shots in the group Dante joined as #6. Whom might 'Nashe' have most resembled, if we were to select a most likely candidate?
@@patricktilton5377 well, I think when you bring another writer like Dante in to make a point, you necessarily take us away from Oxfords unique situation, his education and his proclivities. What applies to one does not thus apply to the other. We are trying to understand from similar words phrases and structure etc, who was the author of Nash's work. If you agree that it's the 17th earl of O, then maybe you would also understand that his efforts naturally culminated in Ovid-influenced writing because he was steeped in Ovid from his school days?
@@benc8834 I don't think you're 'grokking' what I'm trying to suggest/ask about. I don't know if Prechter is right about Oxford having written Greene's works under an 'Ovidian' persona -- it MIGHT be true, but I'm not 100% sure, though the IDEA intrigues me. But let's just SUPPOSE Prechter's right about Oxford-as-Greene-as-'Ovid', just for the sake of argument. Then WHY should Oxford have written as 'Nashe', too, assuming yet ANOTHER 'Ovidian' persona? Wouldn't that be a case of Been-there/done-that? Why assume yet ANOTHER Ovidian persona, when he's already done it, writing as 'Greene'? Other scholars have seen echoes of Dante's COMMEDIA in the Shakespeare works, so it's apparent to me that he knew Dante well enough. Well, that passage in INFERNO IV in which Dante became the 6th member of the exalted group of virtuous pagan Poets -- a group which included Ovid -- seems to me to be just the sort of thing that would strike Oxford as interesting, in that he -- knowing how talented he himself was as a Poet -- might be vain enough to consider himself just as worthy as Dante in becoming the 7th member of that exalted group. So . . . why not construct a persona based on, say, OVID, in order to pen plays while suffering a period of 'exile' (from Elizabeth's court) just as Ovid was exiled from Italy and Rome? Again, I'm not saying that I agree with Prechter that this indeed DID happen -- only that it MAY have happened, and if it DID then it opens up the possibility that Oxford may have written OTHER works -- i.e. works other than the 'Shakespeare' plays and poems -- under the guise/persona of some other Poet-figure from the Past, i.e. one of the other Poets in the group that welcomed Dante as their 6th member. Could Oxford-as-Nashe be 'Lucanian', or 'Horatian', or even 'Homeric' or 'Virgilian'? Does Nashe's work resemble any of those four poets of antiquity? Waugh has interpreted the Stratford Monument's pair of Latin lines as being suggestive that 'Nestor' represents BEAUMONT, that 'Socrates' represents CHAUCER, and that 'Virgil'/'Maro' represents SPENSER, etc. Might this not rule out 'Virgil' as a pagan cognate to some persona adopted by Oxford writing under the guise of some other Elizabethan poet/playwright, seeing as how Spenser is already the English Virgil? Might not Oxford-as-Nashe be the English/Elizabethan 'Horace' or 'Lucan'? I'm not as 'up' on Horace or Lucan -- or on Nashe, to be honest -- to know whether or not Nashe's works might resemble those of either Horace or Lucan . . . which is why I'm asking if somebody HERE might have an insight regarding this possibility. Capisce?
@@SAVANNAHEVENTS I totally concur with Prechter’s comprehensive analysis on Thomas Nashe as well as the many other voices he has identified as that of de Vere. Right now we’re all patiently waiting for the professor to explain his previous dismissive comments. Professor??
The Bronte Sisters had an imaginary world And wrote as other imaginary people Through his life I am sure a young Oxford would want a separate life away from the strict House of Burley I'm sure at College he made sure he could have two or more lives 😊
I am not as sure as you that Burghley was on as good terms with Oxford in 1597 to protect him by passing on documents. In fact, he most likely hated him and blamed him for the early death of his daughter Anne. Robert Cecil also hated him and did nothing to help Oxford after his father died in 1598. Also, Oxford was increasingly physically unable to get out, so not sure he actually would go on exteneded trips. That said, you have researched this in very fine detail and have built a strong case that requires filling in some of missing information with supposition. In the case of Greene, I would need to see a lot more on his plays and how Oxford came to write them and how he worked with Edward Alleyn on thier production and why some were not added to the first folio. I am open minded on this and look forward to more.
Robert, i feel ive got to thank you for this little group of talks covering Green and Nash.... you do it with non' chalance, and verifiable evidence..... Up until then they were names within the milieu, university wits, and of course i hadnt read them.... Now, after the dozens of parallels, the Burleigh letter, the dates, the handwriting, the apparent invisibility of Nash.....all seem to fall into place without so much as a squeak. I remember that same sensation reading J.T. Looney, so thank you for the richness of this content that i would otherwise not have an inkling. Its truly remarkable
Wow! I'm convinced! When we think about Oxford's mischievous sense of humour...perhaps best illustrated in the "licensed fool" Feste...this taking on of a persona...especially to satirize his enemies, and to support the Earl of Oxford (se ipse!)...must have been irresistible. Clearly Harvey knew what was going on, but was just too afraid to let the cat out of the bag and become "one of the famousest autors in England".
Thamk you Universoty of Michigan
WOW! that Dido speech you read is so beautiful. So Shake-speare.
In your presentation about Robert Greene, you depict Greene's supposed life and career as a kind of purposeful 'echo' of Ovid. If Oxford was the one who actually wrote the Robert Greene oeuvre, intending it to be himself in an Ovidian persona, then might it not be possible that by writing the Thomas Nashe oeuvre, Oxford was again purposely echoing some other famous writer's life and literary output? If so, then whose life and career might the Nashe persona be echoing? That of another Roman poet? A Greek poet? A post-classical writer -- maybe an Italian author whose works he had come to know due to his 15-to-16 month trip to the Continent? Whose literary output most closely resembles that of Thomas Nashe?
Re Ovid, just to add that I recently read a compendium of Nashe's works to see if I could find my own parallels to Oxford/Shake-speare...the first remarkable fact that struck me like a lightning bolt was the number of quotations from Ovid...they were legion! About three or four times more frequent, at my hasty reckoning, than all the other Latin authors combined. This is certainly enough to begin to surmise that Prechter is on the right track!
From what I gather anything Oxford is Skakesperian and thus Ovidian. So Ovid is like the key
@@benc8834 But Prechter's thesis was that Oxford's 'Ovid'-like persona was 'Robert Greene'. If Oxford was ALSO behind the 'Nashe' output, then I still think he ought to be a persona representing some 'type' OTHER than Ovid.
I'll ask it again, in another way: In what ways were Greene and Nashe DIFFERENT from one another, such that Greene could be compared to Ovid and Nashe to some predecessor OTHER than Ovid?
In Dante's INFERNO [Canto IV], when Virgil brings him to the Limbo where Virtuous Pagans are doomed to spend Eternity (because they didn't know & believe in the Christian revelation), Dante joined a group of 5 pagan poets -- Homer, ['poeta sovrano' = 'sovereign poet', i.e. the poet who rules over the group, perhaps because he predates these other (Roman) poets], Horace, Ovid, and Lucan -- along with Virgil, whom the call 'l'altissimp poeta', i.e. 'the loftiest poet', i.e. the best of them.
Might not Oxford-as-Shakespeare have gone through an 'Ovidian' phase when he wrote as 'Robert Greene' . . . only to then enter another phase, whereupon he wrote other works in the personae of Homer, Virgil, Horace and Lucan, too?
I'm not saying that Oxford DID do this, mind you. I'm merely wondering whether or not he MAY have done so, using those other famous poets of antiquity as typological sources, with his 'Nashe' persona perhaps modeled on one of those other four Big Shots in the group Dante joined as #6.
Whom might 'Nashe' have most resembled, if we were to select a most likely candidate?
@@patricktilton5377 well, I think when you bring another writer like Dante in to make a point, you necessarily take us away from Oxfords unique situation, his education and his proclivities. What applies to one does not thus apply to the other. We are trying to understand from similar words phrases and structure etc, who was the author of Nash's work. If you agree that it's the 17th earl of O, then maybe you would also understand that his efforts naturally culminated in Ovid-influenced writing because he was steeped in Ovid from his school days?
@@benc8834 I don't think you're 'grokking' what I'm trying to suggest/ask about. I don't know if Prechter is right about Oxford having written Greene's works under an 'Ovidian' persona -- it MIGHT be true, but I'm not 100% sure, though the IDEA intrigues me.
But let's just SUPPOSE Prechter's right about Oxford-as-Greene-as-'Ovid', just for the sake of argument. Then WHY should Oxford have written as 'Nashe', too, assuming yet ANOTHER 'Ovidian' persona? Wouldn't that be a case of Been-there/done-that? Why assume yet ANOTHER Ovidian persona, when he's already done it, writing as 'Greene'?
Other scholars have seen echoes of Dante's COMMEDIA in the Shakespeare works, so it's apparent to me that he knew Dante well enough. Well, that passage in INFERNO IV in which Dante became the 6th member of the exalted group of virtuous pagan Poets -- a group which included Ovid -- seems to me to be just the sort of thing that would strike Oxford as interesting, in that he -- knowing how talented he himself was as a Poet -- might be vain enough to consider himself just as worthy as Dante in becoming the 7th member of that exalted group.
So . . . why not construct a persona based on, say, OVID, in order to pen plays while suffering a period of 'exile' (from Elizabeth's court) just as Ovid was exiled from Italy and Rome?
Again, I'm not saying that I agree with Prechter that this indeed DID happen -- only that it MAY have happened, and if it DID then it opens up the possibility that Oxford may have written OTHER works -- i.e. works other than the 'Shakespeare' plays and poems -- under the guise/persona of some other Poet-figure from the Past, i.e. one of the other Poets in the group that welcomed Dante as their 6th member.
Could Oxford-as-Nashe be 'Lucanian', or 'Horatian', or even 'Homeric' or 'Virgilian'? Does Nashe's work resemble any of those four poets of antiquity? Waugh has interpreted the Stratford Monument's pair of Latin lines as being suggestive that 'Nestor' represents BEAUMONT, that 'Socrates' represents CHAUCER, and that 'Virgil'/'Maro' represents SPENSER, etc. Might this not rule out 'Virgil' as a pagan cognate to some persona adopted by Oxford writing under the guise of some other Elizabethan poet/playwright, seeing as how Spenser is already the English Virgil?
Might not Oxford-as-Nashe be the English/Elizabethan 'Horace' or 'Lucan'? I'm not as 'up' on Horace or Lucan -- or on Nashe, to be honest -- to know whether or not Nashe's works might resemble those of either Horace or Lucan . . . which is why I'm asking if somebody HERE might have an insight regarding this possibility.
Capisce?
To write about court matters with your own name, was a very dangerous thing to do in Elizabethan times.
I'm convinced, seems a done deal.
You must be very gullible.
@@rstritmatter
Well, alrighty then. There you have it. Also Sprach Stritmatter. Cue the brass fanfare crescendo.
@@devereisshake-speare5810 🤣
@@rstritmatter Where does Prechter go wrong?
@@SAVANNAHEVENTS I totally concur with Prechter’s comprehensive analysis on Thomas Nashe as well as the many other voices he has identified as that of de Vere. Right now we’re all patiently waiting for the professor to explain his previous dismissive comments. Professor??
The Bronte Sisters had an imaginary world And wrote as other imaginary people Through his life I am sure a young Oxford would want a separate life away from the strict House of Burley
I'm sure at College he made sure he could have two or more lives 😊
I am not as sure as you that Burghley was on as good terms with Oxford in 1597 to protect him by passing on documents. In fact, he most likely hated him and blamed him for the early death of his daughter Anne. Robert Cecil also hated him and did nothing to help Oxford after his father died in 1598. Also, Oxford was increasingly physically unable to get out, so not sure he actually would go on exteneded trips. That said, you have researched this in very fine detail and have built a strong case that requires filling in some of missing information with supposition. In the case of Greene, I would need to see a lot more on his plays and how Oxford came to write them and how he worked with Edward Alleyn on thier production and why some were not added to the first folio. I am open minded on this and look forward to more.