I believe the whole point is without a proper transfer switch in place, plugging a generator into a house can actually feed electricity back to the street. This creates a hazard to utility workers and the public.
Yes it does but do you know, powerlines already re-energize even if they’re off just by static electricity, they have to grounded it no matter what, yes we want it not to put poor back on the grid , but it really doesn’t matter, just the static electricity can put around 600volts on a deadline
@andrewsimmons6855 Yes, there are procedures to make linemen more safe. But they are often working extremely long hours in an emergency like hurricane to restore power quickly, so it just adds an unnecessary level of danger to an overworked lineman. Also, even more importantly, if a little kid comes upon a downed primary that otherwise would not have been as deadly if the generator was not backfeeding. Its just not worth it and should be done correctly.
The greatest danger is both the generator and the power company feed being connected to each other at the same time. It's critically important that any generator output and supply feed phases to be completely 'in sync'. Being out of sync creates a short circuit. If someone doesn't completely understand this they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near this equipment. And yes, naturally you don't want your generator feeding back on the grid. But the greatest physical danger to the equipment is both connected to each other and both being 'live'.
Pretty sure they have meters to check the lines, What do they do about homes with solar panels? Those send power back to the grid. And many lines you dont know what they go to.
@nickv1008 Solar systems have a micro inverter that changes the current from DC to AC and also matches the frequency that the correct hertz (60 hz in the usa) the generator does not match the hertz perfectly which can cause major damage and also could energize lines that linemen think are de-energized.
Yes I been on the receiving end of a live line from 3 miles away luckily I always have a rod reader and it tells me the line is live or dead but in storm or hurricane season we may have to really be careful as most residents have been known to electrify their homes and forget about the breakers that have a small amount of voltages going through the main lines we treat them as live even if we know there not but we have been like a magnet for electricity from a unknown sources before
Do the customer and the next guy who opens that panel a big favor and plug those open knockouts. Anything could crawl or slither into that panel and cause a short cicuit or, worse, a fire.
Breaker interlock = expensive but necessary piece of metal that keeps the main breaker from being turn on if the breaker for the generator breaker is on.
@@rupe53sometimes the only way... a junk transfer switch isnt gonna handle a 12-22Kw portable generator unless you get the ones that install at the meter and switch the service entrance
@@manletopia4801 Not sure what you mean by "junk transfer switch" because anything you buy should be rated to do the job based on the entire service load. IOW, you don't install a 50 amp switch on a 200 amp service.
yeah the saftey of others is the big thing especially when repairs in effect propper planning prevents piss poor performance the having the 50 amp service though IS a good idea just make sure it's to code and safe should you sell or forfeit your home
@@SnowingNapalm we just removed it for the customer at no charge as they did not want it and did not know they had it. Exactly what you are saying it was done by previous owner!
@@SimonelectricflI'm a qualified person, but the time that you need a generator is the time that you need an extra helping of sanity checking. Power outages are high stress situations, not times when I'm operating at my best. Even if I know that I need to flip the switch, I'm not sure I would 100% remember to do it given the circumstances, especially given the stakes of 13.8kv rushing through those backfed lines and the people working to fix it.
I put one in, it's not that hard to follow the instructions. However those locks are expensive. Mine cost $75. Others can range from $60 to $120 depending on the box you have. If you're a metal working you can make one for $5. LOL
A breaker interlock is better than nothing but a transfer switch is the best solution. In our country a breaker interlock is only allowed if the breakers are physically connected and interlocked as a sole unit. In industrial settings the rules are a bit different. It's allowed to have 2 feeds to a distribution board to add generator backup but one of them has to be locked and tagged out at all times. Some of our smaller important distribution boards are made that way. We have our own part of 10kV grid with 4 transformers 10kV>400V. To get emergency power we actually have to backfeed but it's a whole procedure to do it right. First we lock out, tag out and earth the 10kV from the main feed/ meter. Next we pull the fuses and put caps on at the first transformer, this completely isolates and earths the 10kV cable between the main feed/ meter and the first transformer. From there we connect a 1000kVa generator on the bus bars of the first (1000kVa) transformer and use this transformer to provide 10kV for our other 3 transformers. This way setting up doesn't cost too much time because 1-2 people can set it up quite quickly in the middle of the night and it's still safe with 3 ways of protecting for backfeed.
@@sylviaisgod6947 video doesn't show that. And if he speaks about "reverse outlet" I can only assume he doesn't know what he's talking about and just wants to make a quick buck
happy to see you taking away the ability to backfeed. When we did our panel upgrade, we did something similar, except we had a subpanel set up for the generator circuits, and it has a manual transfer switch with a round blocking plate between the two input breakers on it. The plate only allows one of the input breakers to be on at a time.
And for every single one of you saying that this panel is fine as-is I have this to say: This section of the electric code was written in the blood of linemen and electricians who have died to properties that did things your way and had someone forget a step. The blocker plate that code mandates makes it extremely difficult to forget the step.
Yeah, professional installation apart from the fact you can have energised male pins on the socket. Or the fact there's no transfer switch when dealing with two supplies. But apart from that its a stellar job.
First, your comment subtley implies that the lives of apprentices (people who will one day become full blown electricians) dont matter. Second, that kind of outlet can energize the grid while there is an outage (which is when youd be most likely to be using backup power) there is a reason why this is illegal.
People like you are just the most insufferable beings on Earth. The point is not that "you can test it so it doesn't matter," the point is it's a rule, so follow it. "Only a student driver would drive into oncoming traffic, so why bother driving on the right side of the road? You SHOULD be able to see if someone is coming and get out of the way 😭🤣" See? That's how unreasonably goddamned annoying people like you sound. Stop wasting your time putting your stupid words in my world.
We used this to power our house during storms. We always make sure to disconnect the main feed breaker and then it does not impose risk to anyone but your house. It works but is not for idiots
In an emergency it would be easy to forget the main breaker , I have also powered my home by backfeeding into my dryer socket but I made sure to flip the main in my breaker box and on the utility panel... Way too easy for your average person to forget
Still not worth it because you have live electircity at the other end. Not only is it dangerous for electricians working on power lines but your endangering yourself too.
It can work in a pinch but if your breaker fails best case scenario your generator gets smoked when the mains come back and worst case someone working on the lines (to restore power to your house) dies.
@@pfitz9346if the breaker fails, it won't matter if there is an interlock or not it will still do the same. The point of an interlock is to prevent someone from missing the main breaker and back feeding the LV distribution lines.
I've always wondered why the "main breaker" portion of a panel doesn't just have space for a second "main breaker", with a cost effective generator changeover kit... it'd be even better if an ATS could be installed into the panel. It's not like they don't have the room.
That would make a generator easier to install. But I bet for a few reasons they won't just do that first is they love to make us buy more parts from them and another is there needs to be a certain amount of open cubic inch space according to nec.
It probably could but the panel would be much bigger and cost more. People already complain about cost and not everyone would want them so cost would stay high.
This is california id assume. If it is this is crap the power company turns off power whenever they feel like it. Id encourage all to backfeed when you need to.
Its not California and if they take your advice they could be responsible for the death of a lineman like Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife.
Except for some places don't allow Interlocks. I understand a transfer switch is best. But an interlock is so affordable i think it can greatly reduce danger.
Never a problem if the homeowner knows exactly what they're doing. Problem is during an emergency need the knowledgeable person is not around then you get unpredictable results. And the next homeowner may be clueless.
My wiring is a mess and would probably cost thousands to redo we have ours wired into the garage panel and are extremely careful about shutting it on and off for that reason Hoping to start clearing it up this summer now that I have a diy solar backup to piggy back off of while the main is off
You're just trying to make more money by ripping them off. That's completely fine (as long as it's not on at the same time) other than that, it's perfectly safe.
Code violation and illegal, nothing is fine with this especially if the safe and proper operation of this setup rests solely on the person using it being knowledgeable which in most cases they are not. If that was the case that code wouldn’t exist, most of the stuff in the code book exists because too many accidents occurred and too many people got hurt.
Honestly that code isn’t as bad as all those multi branch circuits without dual phased levers across both L1 and L2. Share neutrals is way more hazardous than an “illegal backfeed” since most folks know to shut off the main😅most don’t know the neutrals still hot if L1 isn’t shut off with L2
That really just looks like a 50a rv hookup. If it was for a generator, it would require the generator to be plugged in with a suicide cord, even more dangerous. It can be used as a generator fees, but so could a dryer or an oven outlet...
It is very easy to make a mistake that way and can cause injury or fatalities of anyone that comes close to back fed powerline or linemen like in Flomoton, Al when lineman Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife. That's just one I know about, but I know there are many more. It is also a code violation of nec.
Of course there's more to it than that. Yes you can turn the main breaker off but you have to know your loads and which breakers to turn off on the panel so you don't overload the generator. There's a reason NFPA's NEC has code that addresses this...
I really hope we modernize our grid quick to make stuff like this impossible to hurt workers. They've got enough to deal with. And we'll save $$$ in losses and smart grid optimizations...
And you see that’s just the problem, you sell them as “whole home generators”, but who’s home? Because a 24kw certainly isn’t going to power some of these castles people are building. It sets unrealistic expectations.
@@jacobvanbruggen5462 Yes. I sell whole-home generators. From 18kW to 60kW, the largest I've put on a mansion. We also do commercial. I fail to see why that's a problem.
Has anyone ever backfed a house with a generator without flipping the main off. The generator will run for 3 seconds even if the breaker doesn’t trip. It would be like a motorcycle trying to pull a semi truck. It’s gonna stall out. More likely the breaker will trip since you’re trying to power the whole substation gonna pull all the amps lol. People hear one person tell them something and don’t ever question it
I live in fl, and almost every hurricane you hear about generator back feed either a downed line was energized or even a lineman gets shocked and / or hurt it does happen. If the line was good all the way to the substation, they would not need a generator because the power would still be on. The power backfeeds all the way to the trouble spot.
My idiot neighbor tried powering up our town. He asked me to help him start his generator and I specifically asked him twice if he shut off his mains and he looked at me like I was stupid. He couldn't understand why his generator would run hard for 5-10 seconds and then trip its own breaker! Fn idiot!
Customers change their "want it done properly" tune really quickly when you explain how expensive it is to do this job correctly. I've yet to convince ONE person to do it with interlocking. Love how everyone's an expert, but no one can do the job themselves 😂
@mikej5959 There are many situations where accidtal back feed can happen if it is left up to the home owner. The code book specifically says accidental back feed must be prevented.
I could do the job myself... but I am an electrical engineer... and I understand the danger of backfeeding and the several types of interlocks available...
question for actual line workers, if the interlock is open and a home is backfeeding to the grid, wouldn't the homes on the circuit eat up the amps in no time and only show fractions of a volt? not saying it's a good idea backfeeding into the grid but anyone who's forgotten to flip the switch usually immediately realizes it, id also have to assume if they were more than 1 house away working on the lines that the voltage would be basically gone. unless someone had a PTO generator that could power a whole block that is.
Yes, you could do that. But it is still illegal. Also, many people do not know what they are doing and will do something wrong, causing a serious risk to lineman and themselves.
And why would you have to move the breaker to the top of the panel? I'm curious because I do these for friends and neighbors each hurricane here in Florida. Thanks for responding & explaining to everyone here, very cool.
@@truck-stop_abortionclinicBecause you need to have your different supplies isolated from eachother, otherwise you can damage you generator or risk someone's life.
Yeah, big problem with how electricians install boxes is they always take the spot closest to the main breaker. If the customer installed it themselves, they already know to turn off the main one before turning on the generator, so why would they worry about rearranging the breakers to put in an interlock that adds another job to do. I question if it's illegal if the homeowners are the one doing this but may require removal upon selling the home.
the interlock is to eliminate human error (as we forget a lot ) , intact in Canada they won't allow this interlock as it can be defeated by simply removing the panel cover and make us put in a actual transfer switch in instead for code , I would prefer a interlock as you can make it for 5 cents worth of metal and bolts
@TheCaperfish Canada actually has a problem with it because its defeated when you remove the panel cover? I know Canadians are dumb but that's really stupid. It requires you to think someone is so stupid they don't know how easy it is to use the interlock. It's equivalent to telling someone to take your beer, because you're going to go through the trouble of removing the panel to bypass the interlock switch because it's just too complicated to , even though the understanding of how to defeat the interlock is more complex. The only possible reason is the belief that someone would intentionally cause the back feed which you could do anyways if you don't care about Electric Codes which you would'nt if its intentional. I really wonder how Canada is still a country.
@Simonelectricfl cODe VIoLaTIon. Yeah, everyone used to have generators. Now, we all wait for the electic companies to send people out who hate their jobs and barley get the power on within 7 days. What if someone has kids or a medical machine that needs to be powered? Does your city reimburse people when the food goes bad during an outage?
Our older manufactured home has those generator outlets? I thought it was just an extra power plug we've used to plug orange power cords into for yard work idk If it's safe or not and considering a small generator for emergency a as our power has gone out mid summer in 90 to 100 degree temps just to run fridge?
I've got 2 questions. First, was that an add-on at some point? Second, will all the breakers need to be moved down to accommodate the 50-amp mechanical interlock?
If you're too cheap to buy an interlock, don't put in an outlet, put the generator cable directly into a loose breaker. Requires more conscious effort to be an idiot, and by far the cheapest solution. Only install the breaker when you need the generator, cause it's a lot less likely for someone to not turn the main off when they've gotta take the whole cover off and screw the breaker in just to hook the genset up, and a code inspector won't fail you for just having 3 extra plastic blanks in your panel like they will for a non-interlocked shore connection. The 3rd blank's for hanging the cord out.
If doing things like this is illegal, then would it be the fault of the general contractor whom built the house; the electrician whom was hired to do the electrical work; or the homeowner for having paid for having some after market( and illegal ) changes made to the house's electrical system? I know that now there is the proper equipment for sale to have the house's electrical system made to accept an exterior generator as a power source. Why would anyone( short of being cheap ) do this even though such modifications could end up with a house fire or someone's death?
I stumbled on an improper transfer switch one day and the male end of the line cord was energized outside the house. (power came back on) It blew my ass across the yard. I gave the owner a rash of shit (way too polite) and told him his gen set was toast... plus we were black-listing the address from ever doing service again. I also nipped the wires short in the bogus switch and told him to get a real electrician instead of his retarded buddy, who set this thing up in the first place.
No, it's labeled generator first then outside of that this is not in an area a camper would ever be parked and I have never seen a 50 amp tv before not saying they don't exist but iv never seen one.
No, its illegal because power compamies hate having to pay people that make electricity.... its no different than a damn power plant just on a smaller scale. People...its a nuce around peoples necks that try to figure a way of making it in the world without following the working mans suit.... thats all
My panel is a wadesworth electric panel and I've searched hi and low for an interlock for my panel and they don't make them for that old brand of panel...so I back feed my panel like the one shown and if there's a power outage I turns off the main 150 Amp breaker and turn on my 2 pole generator breaker and turn on the generator....when power is restored I turn off my generator and generator breaker and then turn back on the main house breaker
@@Simonelectricfl very south. And I don't care bout their mind bs. Living off road, off grid and away from news'n'fear mongering. Pass by if you're around. Tho from BCN it's a full day travel down south
This is a pretty serious violation and dangerous. This exact thing has killed linemen. Like Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife. That's just one I know about but I know there is many more.
So here's my confusion of what you're talking about it all runs on the same rail so why would it be different for its location because it's doing the same thing on the same generated plate Not sure where you went with this
There is a part called a mechanical interlock that will connect the main breaker and the generator breaker and prevent them from accidental Simultaneous connection. It is not super expensive and not hard to install.
So seeing a few shorts: why the hell are the panels outside?? Have never seen that kind of access (see: possible abuse) Here, all ours are inside, in the (typical) basement
Can you backfeed with a mechanical interlock in between the main breaker and the generator feed breaker to eliminate the chance of the main being on when the generator feed breaker is on and vise versa ?
Im not sure what part of the country this is in, but if i were to take a guess, I would say this was done by a mexican immigrant posing as a qualified electrician. Bet he did it cheap too.
Inspected panel using aluminum mains lug was loose arced burning insulation sheet and burning sheet metal customer still tried to use that line 220 forced air heater would not heat also clothes dryer 110 lead open so decides to get catalitic heaters with circulation fans running propane causing carbon monoxide to the area with man woman and child I warned them 2 years ago and all have respiratory problems 😮 they were told that the propane heaters were free of producing the deadly fumes!!! This practice is wide spread needing to tell all home owners the dangers
Is it legal to designate receptacles plug and subpanel for generator use that isn't wired into electrical panel? I have no room in my panel and I just want to install a few receptacles for fridge, freezer, and charging phones or battery banks
Boy did this video really bring out the cream of the crop in the comment section. People need to start doing some research before leaving stupid comments.
Google the term "reverse outlet" they go by other names, but that is a common term in the trade. Also, it is technically referred to as a " power inlet box" in code rule 702.7(C)NEC.
@@JimDean002 Along with seeing the video, I know what he was trying to mean also. But what's so hard about using the correct name for the device especially when they know what it is ?
@benjurqunov we use the term "reverse outlet" because that is what it does. Just like a the term "Suicide cord" is the alternative to the reverse outlet and the name says it all (danger do not use)
Look if you're using one of these and your power gos out first thing you do is turn off your main service breaker plug in your generator and fire it up and flip on the emergency power breaker once the city power is back up you just go turn of your generator unplug it turn off your emergency power breaker and turn back on the main if someone had this installed they either knew what they were doing or something very clearly and plainly explained what they were doing why and how it worked but hey if you wanna spen upwards of 10000 on a back up generator system with a transfer swich by all means but this is just fine if your on a budget and know what your doing 😉
If you want to be extra safe without a transfer switch just buy a lock out tag out kit and lock the main everytime you plan on using it. You can tell people the right way but there will always be someone who's budget is only going to get them so far well I understand the danger it's something that can be totally negated
I believe the whole point is without a proper transfer switch in place, plugging a generator into a house can actually feed electricity back to the street. This creates a hazard to utility workers and the public.
100% correct!
Yes it does but do you know, powerlines already re-energize even if they’re off just by static electricity, they have to grounded it no matter what, yes we want it not to put poor back on the grid , but it really doesn’t matter, just the static electricity can put around 600volts on a deadline
@andrewsimmons6855 Yes, there are procedures to make linemen more safe. But they are often working extremely long hours in an emergency like hurricane to restore power quickly, so it just adds an unnecessary level of danger to an overworked lineman. Also, even more importantly, if a little kid comes upon a downed primary that otherwise would not have been as deadly if the generator was not backfeeding. Its just not worth it and should be done correctly.
This is why we still ground everything
The greatest danger is both the generator and the power company feed being connected to each other at the same time. It's critically important that any generator output and supply feed phases to be completely 'in sync'. Being out of sync creates a short circuit. If someone doesn't completely understand this they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near this equipment.
And yes, naturally you don't want your generator feeding back on the grid. But the greatest physical danger to the equipment is both connected to each other and both being 'live'.
That’s all a lineman needs is to have electricity flowing from someone’s house and completely unaware
Exactly! They are working around the clock trying to restore power and this is the last thing they need!
Pretty sure they have meters to check the lines, What do they do about homes with solar panels? Those send power back to the grid. And many lines you dont know what they go to.
@nickv1008 Solar systems have a micro inverter that changes the current from DC to AC and also matches the frequency that the correct hertz (60 hz in the usa) the generator does not match the hertz perfectly which can cause major damage and also could energize lines that linemen think are de-energized.
Yes I been on the receiving end of a live line from 3 miles away luckily I always have a rod reader and it tells me the line is live or dead but in storm or hurricane season we may have to really be careful as most residents have been known to electrify their homes and forget about the breakers that have a small amount of voltages going through the main lines we treat them as live even if we know there not but we have been like a magnet for electricity from a unknown sources before
@@danielash1704 I wish you did not have to deal with that! That's the last thing a lineman needs when trying to restore power in an emergency.
Do the customer and the next guy who opens that panel a big favor and plug those open knockouts. Anything could crawl or slither into that panel and cause a short cicuit or, worse, a fire.
Good point I usually do.
breaker boxes are wasp island
@@manletopia4801 good point
I have found squirrels toasted in those exterior mounted load centers.
Breaker interlock = expensive but necessary piece of metal that keeps the main breaker from being turn on if the breaker for the generator breaker is on.
Yes I agree they are necessary in this situation.
breaker interlocks are the cheapest way to go.... legally.
@@rupe53sometimes the only way... a junk transfer switch isnt gonna handle a 12-22Kw portable generator unless you get the ones that install at the meter and switch the service entrance
@@manletopia4801 Not sure what you mean by "junk transfer switch" because anything you buy should be rated to do the job based on the entire service load. IOW, you don't install a 50 amp switch on a 200 amp service.
@@rupe53 they make 3 position transfer switches that install on the service entrance and you can put any generator breaker you want to feed into it
I respect you a lot for pointing this out to the home owner. A+
Thank you
yeah the saftey of others is the big thing especially when repairs in effect propper planning prevents piss poor performance the having the 50 amp service though IS a good idea just make sure it's to code and safe should you sell or forfeit your home
Good catch bro 💕🇨🇦🤙
@@Nicecalgarianthanks
@@SnowingNapalm we just removed it for the customer at no charge as they did not want it and did not know they had it. Exactly what you are saying it was done by previous owner!
So true. It's not safe and relies on the knowledge and actions of the user being correct. Make a mistake and BOOM!
After hurricanes every year, you hear about the boom and sometimes it really hurts people.
Old school interlock was a set of instructions posted next to the main breaker 😂
Looks like a 50 amp RV outlet to me.
It is a reverse outlet.
You can just about see the male prongs when he lifts the cover, so it's gen. backfeed.
@nickldominator Exactly correct. Good eyes I didn't know if anyone would notice that.
I didn't notice it. Good catch!
@@One-ik4pb yes I use that box for rv and inlet
Wow good find. Yes definitely needs to be corrected. I assume this is a shock waiting to happen to the utility workers
Looks like something an electrician does in his own house .
I do think there is an exception in the code for a qualified person not needing an interlock
@@Simonelectricfl us electricians tend to do our personal electrical work quick, easy
@@shanestanton5481 I hear that
@@SimonelectricflI'm a qualified person, but the time that you need a generator is the time that you need an extra helping of sanity checking. Power outages are high stress situations, not times when I'm operating at my best.
Even if I know that I need to flip the switch, I'm not sure I would 100% remember to do it given the circumstances, especially given the stakes of 13.8kv rushing through those backfed lines and the people working to fix it.
I put one in, it's not that hard to follow the instructions. However those locks are expensive. Mine cost $75. Others can range from $60 to $120 depending on the box you have. If you're a metal working you can make one for $5. LOL
Yes they are not to difficult and definitely worth it to install
Good way to void your coverage should your house ever catch fire due to an electrical issue.
Cheap money to avoid electrocuting someone.😮
A breaker interlock is better than nothing but a transfer switch is the best solution. In our country a breaker interlock is only allowed if the breakers are physically connected and interlocked as a sole unit.
In industrial settings the rules are a bit different. It's allowed to have 2 feeds to a distribution board to add generator backup but one of them has to be locked and tagged out at all times. Some of our smaller important distribution boards are made that way.
We have our own part of 10kV grid with 4 transformers 10kV>400V. To get emergency power we actually have to backfeed but it's a whole procedure to do it right.
First we lock out, tag out and earth the 10kV from the main feed/ meter. Next we pull the fuses and put caps on at the first transformer, this completely isolates and earths the 10kV cable between the main feed/ meter and the first transformer.
From there we connect a 1000kVa generator on the bus bars of the first (1000kVa) transformer and use this transformer to provide 10kV for our other 3 transformers. This way setting up doesn't cost too much time because 1-2 people can set it up quite quickly in the middle of the night and it's still safe with 3 ways of protecting for backfeed.
Perhaps it's also just a Hubble twist lock 220v convenience outlet. Don't jump to conclusions
I assure you no conclusions were jumped to, sir.
It's a male outlet. Touch the prongs while the breaker is on and see if you jump to any conclusions.
@@sylviaisgod6947 haha yes
@@sylviaisgod6947 video doesn't show that. And if he speaks about "reverse outlet" I can only assume he doesn't know what he's talking about and just wants to make a quick buck
@@Quentyn73 You can see the metal prongs in that receptacle. Well I can, anyway.... maybe you need glasses or a better phone or whatever.
As a European, that entire panel looks like a hazard to me lmao
It is safe and works well, I can assure you.
What looks wrong?
happy to see you taking away the ability to backfeed. When we did our panel upgrade, we did something similar, except we had a subpanel set up for the generator circuits, and it has a manual transfer switch with a round blocking plate between the two input breakers on it. The plate only allows one of the input breakers to be on at a time.
And for every single one of you saying that this panel is fine as-is I have this to say:
This section of the electric code was written in the blood of linemen and electricians who have died to properties that did things your way and had someone forget a step. The blocker plate that code mandates makes it extremely difficult to forget the step.
Looks like a professional install other than it’s location in the panel.
Yea could be
Yeah, professional installation apart from the fact you can have energised male pins on the socket. Or the fact there's no transfer switch when dealing with two supplies. But apart from that its a stellar job.
Only an apprentice would begin working on a circuit without verifying it is NOT live! 😂❤
First, your comment subtley implies that the lives of apprentices (people who will one day become full blown electricians) dont matter. Second, that kind of outlet can energize the grid while there is an outage (which is when youd be most likely to be using backup power) there is a reason why this is illegal.
People like you are just the most insufferable beings on Earth. The point is not that "you can test it so it doesn't matter," the point is it's a rule, so follow it. "Only a student driver would drive into oncoming traffic, so why bother driving on the right side of the road? You SHOULD be able to see if someone is coming and get out of the way 😭🤣"
See? That's how unreasonably goddamned annoying people like you sound. Stop wasting your time putting your stupid words in my world.
We used this to power our house during storms. We always make sure to disconnect the main feed breaker and then it does not impose risk to anyone but your house. It works but is not for idiots
In an emergency it would be easy to forget the main breaker , I have also powered my home by backfeeding into my dryer socket but I made sure to flip the main in my breaker box and on the utility panel... Way too easy for your average person to forget
Still not worth it because you have live electircity at the other end. Not only is it dangerous for electricians working on power lines but your endangering yourself too.
It can work in a pinch but if your breaker fails best case scenario your generator gets smoked when the mains come back and worst case someone working on the lines (to restore power to your house) dies.
Like most thing, no problem if you know how to operate, goes for guns, cars, knives hammers and circuit breakers.
@@pfitz9346if the breaker fails, it won't matter if there is an interlock or not it will still do the same. The point of an interlock is to prevent someone from missing the main breaker and back feeding the LV distribution lines.
Absolutely 100% correct. This is unsafe and illegal. It is also an easy fix with an interlock device.
As a Lineman, thank you!
No problem! Thank you for keeping the lights on.
yeah watch out for that 120 volts while you are wearing all your PPV
I've always wondered why the "main breaker" portion of a panel doesn't just have space for a second "main breaker", with a cost effective generator changeover kit... it'd be even better if an ATS could be installed into the panel. It's not like they don't have the room.
That would make a generator easier to install. But I bet for a few reasons they won't just do that first is they love to make us buy more parts from them and another is there needs to be a certain amount of open cubic inch space according to nec.
But I'm sure they could do that if they wanted to.
It probably could but the panel would be much bigger and cost more. People already complain about cost and not everyone would want them so cost would stay high.
This is california id assume. If it is this is crap the power company turns off power whenever they feel like it. Id encourage all to backfeed when you need to.
Its not California and if they take your advice they could be responsible for the death of a lineman like Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife.
$100 the customer didn't want to pay to fix it. It should be standard that us as electricians report it to the county to save a lineman's life.
Except for some places don't allow Interlocks. I understand a transfer switch is best. But an interlock is so affordable i think it can greatly reduce danger.
Not recommended but if done properly no problem with it.
It can work but dangerous if any mistakes are made
There is, but if you think thaf then obviously you're either stupid or clueless.
Besides where the breaker is set, this is why you have a throwout switch between the breaker panel, and the feed from the street.
There is a main breaker, but there has to be an automatic or manual transfer switch to prevent the backfeed of the grid.
For me I plug my welder in that plug for doing work in my drive way.
It is a power inlet not a recptical
@@Simonelectricflwould just need a female to female adapter
@AlexAlex-kr9ik that's still super unsafe because if the cord fell out with the mail prongs sticking out it would do damage
Really need a transfer switch here
Welcome to Florida, building inspector ignore it !!!
It only sounds obvious after you hear it, but a
"reverge generator outlet" is called an inlet!
For something like that can't you flip the main breaker off if you was to use that?
Just a question
Never a problem if the homeowner knows exactly what they're doing. Problem is during an emergency need the knowledgeable person is not around then you get unpredictable results. And the next homeowner may be clueless.
My wiring is a mess and would probably cost thousands to redo we have ours wired into the garage panel and are extremely careful about shutting it on and off for that reason
Hoping to start clearing it up this summer now that I have a diy solar backup to piggy back off of while the main is off
Just another case of "Bob down the street said he can do it for less than half"...
Hahaha exactly 🤣
you better hook that back up!
You're just trying to make more money by ripping them off. That's completely fine (as long as it's not on at the same time) other than that, it's perfectly safe.
Code violation and illegal, nothing is fine with this especially if the safe and proper operation of this setup rests solely on the person using it being knowledgeable which in most cases they are not. If that was the case that code wouldn’t exist, most of the stuff in the code book exists because too many accidents occurred and too many people got hurt.
Honestly that code isn’t as bad as all those multi branch circuits without dual phased levers across both L1 and L2. Share neutrals is way more hazardous than an “illegal backfeed” since most folks know to shut off the main😅most don’t know the neutrals still hot if L1 isn’t shut off with L2
I'd recommend a distinct generator cutover panel instead. Really the right way to do this. But I understand why this solution is also appropriate.
Umm. It doesn't matter of its top or bottom. You do have to have a interlock so you don't backfeed the grid tho ... That a must !!!
That really just looks like a 50a rv hookup. If it was for a generator, it would require the generator to be plugged in with a suicide cord, even more dangerous. It can be used as a generator fees, but so could a dryer or an oven outlet...
turn the main breaker off top off. Plug generator into the outlet just to feed the house?
It is very easy to make a mistake that way and can cause injury or fatalities of anyone that comes close to back fed powerline or linemen like in Flomoton, Al when lineman Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife. That's just one I know about, but I know there are many more. It is also a code violation of nec.
Of course there's more to it than that. Yes you can turn the main breaker off but you have to know your loads and which breakers to turn off on the panel so you don't overload the generator. There's a reason NFPA's NEC has code that addresses this...
I really hope we modernize our grid quick to make stuff like this impossible to hurt workers. They've got enough to deal with. And we'll save $$$ in losses and smart grid optimizations...
Wow. Who would permanently the generator and main feed together. They sell interlock protection devices on Amazon which are not hard to install.
That means replacing wires because it is to short to reach the top unlease they added a loop for extra caution
Yea we could extend or replace because it is only a few feet to the inlet box. Either would work but new unbroken wire would be a better choice.
Separately derived systems must have neutrals and lines isolation.
Because those bushes so close to the generator "outlet inlet" aren't going to cause moisture ingress at all 😅
The power comes back on ,there is going to be smoke some where . Maybe the breaker would trip , that's a maybe.
I agree the magic smoke will be somwear!
That's why you shut off the main breaker
@mattwarner7275 not a great method and it is a code violation too.
@Simonelectricfl code violation 95% of the time is so someone can make more money not necessary a Hazzard.
@@marvinwhittler518its a hazard, you're not an electrician.
Who would put a generator on without a transfer switch? INSANE.
When you say illegal i think of people stealing power etc, its definitely not to code which is in place like u stated for safety
I sell whole-home generators and see this kind of installation way too often.
Yea, unfortunately, I think you are 100% correct!
And you see that’s just the problem, you sell them as “whole home generators”, but who’s home? Because a 24kw certainly isn’t going to power some of these castles people are building. It sets unrealistic expectations.
@@jacobvanbruggen5462 Yes. I sell whole-home generators.
From 18kW to 60kW, the largest I've put on a mansion.
We also do commercial.
I fail to see why that's a problem.
@@jacobvanbruggen5462 And they run 12-20k+ installed.
Is it, though? It's just a 220V outlet. Could be used for an electric chipper or an electric barbecue.
Has anyone ever backfed a house with a generator without flipping the main off. The generator will run for 3 seconds even if the breaker doesn’t trip. It would be like a motorcycle trying to pull a semi truck. It’s gonna stall out. More likely the breaker will trip since you’re trying to power the whole substation gonna pull all the amps lol. People hear one person tell them something and don’t ever question it
I live in fl, and almost every hurricane you hear about generator back feed either a downed line was energized or even a lineman gets shocked and / or hurt it does happen. If the line was good all the way to the substation, they would not need a generator because the power would still be on. The power backfeeds all the way to the trouble spot.
@@Simonelectricfl odds are there are at least a few houses on the line that will still kill the generator. most of what you hear is just scare tactics
@@Simonelectricflsame, hate when we can't get power for weeks because they hear generators in the area still on
@@jraboi01 Yep that does happen. I have been there.
My idiot neighbor tried powering up our town. He asked me to help him start his generator and I specifically asked him twice if he shut off his mains and he looked at me like I was stupid. He couldn't understand why his generator would run hard for 5-10 seconds and then trip its own breaker! Fn idiot!
Customers change their "want it done properly" tune really quickly when you explain how expensive it is to do this job correctly. I've yet to convince ONE person to do it with interlocking.
Love how everyone's an expert, but no one can do the job themselves 😂
Right! Haha
Why cant customer just shut off main breaker? Real question. I thought t hat stops power going back to lines.
@mikej5959 There are many situations where accidtal back feed can happen if it is left up to the home owner. The code book specifically says accidental back feed must be prevented.
I could do the job myself... but I am an electrical engineer... and I understand the danger of backfeeding and the several types of interlocks available...
@@WorldPowerLabs well said!
Appreciate the knowledge 👍
question for actual line workers, if the interlock is open and a home is backfeeding to the grid, wouldn't the homes on the circuit eat up the amps in no time and only show fractions of a volt? not saying it's a good idea backfeeding into the grid but anyone who's forgotten to flip the switch usually immediately realizes it, id also have to assume if they were more than 1 house away working on the lines that the voltage would be basically gone. unless someone had a PTO generator that could power a whole block that is.
That system is fine as long as the homeowner turns off the main breaker which would separate the system from the grid.
That's why you turn the main breaker off before plugging in and starting the generator.
Yes, you could do that. But it is still illegal. Also, many people do not know what they are doing and will do something wrong, causing a serious risk to lineman and themselves.
@Simonelectricfl did it to my house for when the power goes out and installed by an electrician. Can't be to illegal.
@dougbaker9473 Without a transfer switch or interlock, it definitely is illegal.
@@Simonelectricfl I didn't even have to get a permit to build my garage where I live . Town requires no permits .
@dougbaker9473 That's really cool. I wish that was like that here.
Then they discover that line was repurposed to power the server computers inside....
I wish it would have been way safer that way.
Your interlock. Can be anywhere not at the top. It just needs to be visible.
Wrong. Has to be top left or top right. I suggest you google how a interlock works. Along with everyone else in this thread.
Good idea, but lineman ground out the lines they work on…no way they can trust everyone.
So at long as you have a UL listed interlock mechanism its ok feed your generator into you main panel?
I am usually surprised if I find one with an interlock
Yea I think and hope they are becoming more common because the safety factor of not having one apposed to having one is pretty dramatic.
What is an interlock?
And why would you have to move the breaker to the top of the panel? I'm curious because I do these for friends and neighbors each hurricane here in Florida. Thanks for responding & explaining to everyone here, very cool.
@@truck-stop_abortionclinicBecause you need to have your different supplies isolated from eachother, otherwise you can damage you generator or risk someone's life.
As long as you know what your doing it's safe
Is the wiring to/from generator outlet (30 amp) the proper size?
Looks fine to me lol most people just use there dryer plug.
How did they get the screw to secure the breaker to thread in????
Yeah, big problem with how electricians install boxes is they always take the spot closest to the main breaker. If the customer installed it themselves, they already know to turn off the main one before turning on the generator, so why would they worry about rearranging the breakers to put in an interlock that adds another job to do. I question if it's illegal if the homeowners are the one doing this but may require removal upon selling the home.
This exact setup has killed many linemen. And it has a code violation.
@Simonelectricfl Nobody has been killed because of this setup. There is no flaw in the setup. The only flaw that can occur is human error.
the interlock is to eliminate human error (as we forget a lot ) , intact in Canada they won't allow this interlock as it can be defeated by simply removing the panel cover and make us put in a actual transfer switch in instead for code , I would prefer a interlock as you can make it for 5 cents worth of metal and bolts
@TheCaperfish Canada actually has a problem with it because its defeated when you remove the panel cover? I know Canadians are dumb but that's really stupid. It requires you to think someone is so stupid they don't know how easy it is to use the interlock. It's equivalent to telling someone to take your beer, because you're going to go through the trouble of removing the panel to bypass the interlock switch because it's just too complicated to , even though the understanding of how to defeat the interlock is more complex.
The only possible reason is the belief that someone would intentionally cause the back feed which you could do anyways if you don't care about Electric Codes which you would'nt if its intentional.
I really wonder how Canada is still a country.
@Simonelectricfl cODe VIoLaTIon. Yeah, everyone used to have generators. Now, we all wait for the electic companies to send people out who hate their jobs and barley get the power on within 7 days. What if someone has kids or a medical machine that needs to be powered? Does your city reimburse people when the food goes bad during an outage?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Very wise words, well put sir!
Our older manufactured home has those generator outlets? I thought it was just an extra power plug we've used to plug orange power cords into for yard work idk If it's safe or not and considering a small generator for emergency a as our power has gone out mid summer in 90 to 100 degree temps just to run fridge?
Well when the line crew throws the power back in he won’t have a gen anymore if he didn’t kill the main
I've got 2 questions. First, was that an add-on at some point? Second, will all the breakers need to be moved down to accommodate the 50-amp mechanical interlock?
If you're too cheap to buy an interlock, don't put in an outlet, put the generator cable directly into a loose breaker. Requires more conscious effort to be an idiot, and by far the cheapest solution. Only install the breaker when you need the generator, cause it's a lot less likely for someone to not turn the main off when they've gotta take the whole cover off and screw the breaker in just to hook the genset up, and a code inspector won't fail you for just having 3 extra plastic blanks in your panel like they will for a non-interlocked shore connection. The 3rd blank's for hanging the cord out.
If doing things like this is illegal, then would it be the fault of the general contractor whom built the house; the electrician whom was hired to do the electrical work; or the homeowner for having paid for having some after market( and illegal ) changes made to the house's electrical system? I know that now there is the proper equipment for sale to have the house's electrical system made to accept an exterior generator as a power source. Why would anyone( short of being cheap ) do this even though such modifications could end up with a house fire or someone's death?
I stumbled on an improper transfer switch one day and the male end of the line cord was energized outside the house. (power came back on) It blew my ass across the yard. I gave the owner a rash of shit (way too polite) and told him his gen set was toast... plus we were black-listing the address from ever doing service again. I also nipped the wires short in the bogus switch and told him to get a real electrician instead of his retarded buddy, who set this thing up in the first place.
1 Jenny on the main, equal two in the bush 🤔
I think the breaker for a horizontal ge panel is on the top left when u install a interlock . Just bought one for a customer last night.
I install the ge frequently to
Do people ever believe in double pole double throw switches.
That's how lineman get killed
Unfortunately yes
Are you sure that’s not an tv or camper hook up? It sure looks like one from how little you actually showed of it.
No, it's labeled generator first then outside of that this is not in an area a camper would ever be parked and I have never seen a 50 amp tv before not saying they don't exist but iv never seen one.
@@Simonelectricfl I was just asking and my Rv is 50 amp, that’s why I ask. Thank you for the clarification.
@prestongoodolboy8561 Yea, I see what you were getting at. Thanks for the comments.
Or add a manual transfer switch 😮
No, its illegal because power compamies hate having to pay people that make electricity.... its no different than a damn power plant just on a smaller scale.
People...its a nuce around peoples necks that try to figure a way of making it in the world without following the working mans suit.... thats all
Noose*
I can't understand the rest of this comment lol.
It's an inlet btw.
My panel is a wadesworth electric panel and I've searched hi and low for an interlock for my panel and they don't make them for that old brand of panel...so I back feed my panel like the one shown and if there's a power outage I turns off the main 150 Amp breaker and turn on my 2 pole generator breaker and turn on the generator....when power is restored I turn off my generator and generator breaker and then turn back on the main house breaker
Come to Spain.
You'll love the bodge jobs hahaha
I do want to visit Spain! One of the things I must see some day is the Sagrada Família!
@@Simonelectricfl which is unofficially not Spain since it's in Catalunia. Haha
They're all mad those southeners 😂
@offroadflow you must live in the north? What about the cathedral Santiago de Compostela?
@@Simonelectricfl very south.
And I don't care bout their mind bs.
Living off road, off grid and away from news'n'fear mongering.
Pass by if you're around. Tho from BCN it's a full day travel down south
@offroadflow Wow I bet it is beautiful there!
Looks good to me!!
This is a pretty serious violation and dangerous. This exact thing has killed linemen. Like Ronnie Adams, age 41. Died from a generator backfeed. He had two children and a wife. That's just one I know about but I know there is many more.
It’s so simple to do a back feed within code I don’t get why people do this crap. An interlock is like $50.
So here's my confusion of what you're talking about it all runs on the same rail so why would it be different for its location because it's doing the same thing on the same generated plate Not sure where you went with this
There is a part called a mechanical interlock that will connect the main breaker and the generator breaker and prevent them from accidental Simultaneous connection. It is not super expensive and not hard to install.
Check out your channel, man you are one unlucky electrician ,,you hit the jackpot on every situation you walk into💯💩🏚️
Haha thank you!
So seeing a few shorts: why the hell are the panels outside?? Have never seen that kind of access (see: possible abuse)
Here, all ours are inside, in the (typical) basement
So I didn't know it was there. The homeowner didn't say anything
That's a lineman killer .......anyone should know that!
I'm confused on why there is electrical stuff like this outside the house...
what if your main breaker disconnect is outside but your main panel is inside the house? Making it physically impossible to install an interlock?
Can you backfeed with a mechanical interlock in between the main breaker and the generator feed breaker to eliminate the chance of the main being on when the generator feed breaker is on and vise versa ?
Im not sure what part of the country this is in, but if i were to take a guess, I would say this was done by a mexican immigrant posing as a qualified electrician. Bet he did it cheap too.
Inspected panel using aluminum mains lug was loose arced burning insulation sheet and burning sheet metal customer still tried to use that line 220 forced air heater would not heat also clothes dryer 110 lead open so decides to get catalitic heaters with circulation fans running propane causing carbon monoxide to the area with man woman and child I warned them 2 years ago and all have respiratory problems 😮 they were told that the propane heaters were free of producing the deadly fumes!!! This practice is wide spread needing to tell all home owners the dangers
Is it legal to designate receptacles plug and subpanel for generator use that isn't wired into electrical panel? I have no room in my panel and I just want to install a few receptacles for fridge, freezer, and charging phones or battery banks
Boy did this video really bring out the cream of the crop in the comment section. People need to start doing some research before leaving stupid comments.
They were not hiding that.
What the hell is "reverse generator outlet"?
This guy isn't a legitimate US electrician !
Google the term "reverse outlet" they go by other names, but that is a common term in the trade. Also, it is technically referred to as a " power inlet box" in code rule 702.7(C)NEC.
That's funny, I knew exactly what he was saying.
@@JimDean002 haha thanks
@@JimDean002
Along with seeing the video, I know what he was trying to mean also.
But what's so hard about using the correct name for the device especially when they know what it is ?
@benjurqunov we use the term "reverse outlet" because that is what it does. Just like a the term "Suicide cord" is the alternative to the reverse outlet and the name says it all (danger do not use)
Look if you're using one of these and your power gos out first thing you do is turn off your main service breaker plug in your generator and fire it up and flip on the emergency power breaker once the city power is back up you just go turn of your generator unplug it turn off your emergency power breaker and turn back on the main if someone had this installed they either knew what they were doing or something very clearly and plainly explained what they were doing why and how it worked but hey if you wanna spen upwards of 10000 on a back up generator system with a transfer swich by all means but this is just fine if your on a budget and know what your doing 😉
If you want to be extra safe without a transfer switch just buy a lock out tag out kit and lock the main everytime you plan on using it. You can tell people the right way but there will always be someone who's budget is only going to get them so far well I understand the danger it's something that can be totally negated