There's one important factor that's usually overlooked. Most people don't know the difference between a volume control and a gain control. They both control how loud the system is, and the terms are interchangeable, but they're not. A gain control is on the input side of a component and has the potential to distort the signal if set too high. A volume control is on the output side of a component, and can't distort the signal no matter how high its set. If you are trying to diagnose a system with excessive gain and don't know this, it can drive you crazy. The best example to illustrate this concept is a guitar amp. No one wants any type of distortion in an audio system except people that play guitar. If you look at a guitar amp, you usually see a gain control right next to a volume control. To get an overdriven or distorted sound, you keep turning the gain up until you reach whatever sounds best for the application. Once you have the gain set, you then use the volume control to change how loud the system is.
"engineering is a series of finding the very best compromises to get you where you want to go...there are no perfect solutions" awesome stuff. Thank you for taking the time 🙂
I use a currently I use my DAC as my pre-amp. It's an RME and the volume control is excellent. My amp has gain control on each side. Once I learned to turn down the gain, then dial it in, my whole system came alive. It was shocking to me, the improvement. I'm no expert on gain but feel it is one of the main keys in good sound and really isn't talked about enough.
what I found was that for my NAD av it sits pretty at 0dB so I put a pre-amp on that for that to control the volume, and the input to the pre-amp (here jack) is 100% (as in the case with most CD players)- this eliminated a lot of noise to where the system is completely silent, even with no input.
I just bought the Stellar Gain Cell Dac due to the sale last month and it smoked all of my other preamps! Very clean and transparent. It has a nice, simple remote which I like however it would be nice if it were backlit. Otherwise, highly recommend!
the best volume is an autoformer what can be placed at the speaker end of your Poweramp, buy them from electrical suppliers to put in the wall if you're adjusting volume in different rooms, just don't have your preamp driving the poweramp full blast can cause it to fail too much gain for long periods of time, adjust the volume on the preamp section between 88 - 93 % max.
I have an integrated amplifier (a Yamaha). Would the sound be in any way improved if I plugged everything into a separate pre-amplifier then plugged the preamp into the integrated amp's line in (assuming, of course, I had a decent preamp)?
Unless your Yamaha is very old, then it's likely to make no difference at all. Modern amps are sonically transparents (no matter what Paul says, it is a scientific fact). Why do people always want to complicate simple things ?
I’ve had a ps audio GAINCELL DAC for about a month now and love it.. I have a marantz Av7706 that I thought sounded great I’m using the HT bypass and occasionally listen to airplay using the marantz just out of convenience but I’m annoyed with it knowing how much better the Gancell Dac sounds. I’m also using 3 m700 monoblocks for my fronts and center.. I love everything about ps audios products. I also really enjoy your daily videos.. keep doing what you’re doing Paul.
Perhaps there is confusion added by calling every level control pot a "Volume" control. A "Volume" control should be used to describe the device/ system that allows control over the ultimate sound pressure levels generated by the speakers. Rather than every device/ circuit that can modify voltage levels along the way. A pot at an input like a power amp, while it does control the output sound level, is doing so by controlling input sensitivity. How much voltage it takes at the input terminals to produce full output. It should be perhaps be referred to therefore as an input sensitivity control rather than "Volume". Or a pot or circuit on a DAC output as an "output level" control and not a "volume" control. Perhaps we should standardize on only one point/ device/ circuit as the "Volume" control and this would reduce some of that confusion.
I think an excellent premp is the way to go. After Axpona I went to my dealer in Chicago to pick up my CD player. In the meantime while I was waiting, there was a client that flew in and brought his own DAC to demo the Magico M6's that actually belonged to my dealer that were at the show in the Magico Luxman room. His client was using his DAC as a preamp and streaming to it using my dealer's Aurender A30. I was there and my dealer asked me what I thought when I purchased my "new" CD player that was used in the show 😁. Honestly, the highs were too forward and at times it was displeasing and fatiguing. I stuck around and his client mentioned this too. My dealer said this was because he was using his DAC as a preamp and it handles voltage to the amp much different. A preamp responds to voltage changes more smoothly like a sign wave, as opposed to a step type wave or square wave with notches. Again I'm not quoting him, but although he explained the technical part of what a great preamp does, I understood the concept. He then swapped in a preamp that matched the Amp and the speakers and music was instantly transformed. It was much more pleasant. Detail was still there, but the transients and vocals we're more natural than forced and fatiguing. The client purchased the system. 🎉
Paul, my Yamaha P2201 power amp has gain controls on front panel. Why didn't you mention that some power amps, professional sound reinforcement and home hifi, DO have gain controls? Don't a bright young guy to invent it. Or did I misunderstand the whole question and you answer? I run the P2201 at full power, zero gain reduction, and it seems to be the best way to avoid dirty contacts on the gain controls. I use a rebuilt NAD1020 preamp which has a high voltage RCA output on the rear panel (same internal circuit that feeds the headphone output on the front panel) to supply a fairly strong voltage to the P2201, which handles it with glee but my speakers limit me. (JBL L7, bi-wired). So I only go to about 50% on the preamp volume control to protect my speakers. Interestingly or maybe common for pro-amps, the P2201 does not have speaker protection circuit.
Personally, I always get the volume knob at maximum level, the dac with volume knob disabled and I control the overall audio at the source, using the Roon DSP. In this way, being my music streamed via Qobuz or HD files on a HD, I can control the audio via software, by a simple addition or subtraction operation, before they are sent to any electric circuits. With no song playing the speakers are perfectly silent and I can control the volume in a very smooth way with 1 Db resolution.
I do the opposite. You can't reduce volume in software or DSP without losing bits and adding noise. However you can attenuate an analog signal without losing quality since it has "infinite" precision in comparison.
@@bitdevice That's true but most digital source devices/software have improved on that a lot and you can't really tell a difference between digital volume control and analog if implemented well enough. I keep using analog volume control because I like turning a real volume pot.
About $60K for the gear, probably $20K in cables. The IRS V speakers sold for $60K 30 years ago, and less than 60 where made. And, yes, it made me cry when I auditioned it...
i get confused by all the names for things, what do you call my approach for digital sources: every power amp, dac and source is set to max. then use my minidsp shd studio for volume control. then volume is done in the digital domain and sent from there.
@@PSA78 it sure does what is needed for me, and the only way to add dsp in my system. wonder how it compares to more traditional pre amps for the volume value alone.
@@ThinkingBetter that volume knob is digital, so its programmed pretty well. with safety features and stuff. and those tactile step for knob feel :) just wonder how it fares vs analog preamps sound wise.
Paul, how did you menage to invent and use "Gain cell" name for "your" module and sell it as your product, when you actually use VCA IC of semiconductor brand That corporation? So inside is that That corp. VCA and couple od Texas instruments OP amps around it.
Ok I'm new to pro audio I've got some TECHNICS FLOOR SPEAKERS FROM 1990 RATED 260 WATTS RMS AND I BAUGHT AN OLD QSC 1400 AMPLIFIER IM WONDERING WHAT POSITION I SHOULD SET THE GAINS ON THE QSC THE SPEAKERS ARE 8 OHM 260 WATT MAX RMS AND THE QSC IS SUPPOSED TO PUT OUT 200 WATTS RMS AT 8 OHMS I CURRENTLY HAVE THEM SET AT ABOUT 3/8 A LITTLE LESS THAN HALF WAY ON BOTH THE LEFT AND RIGHT AND THEN I HAVE A COUPLE 15 INCH POWERED SUBS I JUST NEED TO KNOW SO I DONT BLOW MY AMP IM A NOOB AT THIS THANKS IN ADVANCE LOVE YOUR VIDEOS
There's one important factor that's usually overlooked. Most people don't know the difference between a volume control and a gain control. They both control how loud the system is, and the terms are interchangeable, but they're not. A gain control is on the input side of a component and has the potential to distort the signal if set too high. A volume control is on the output side of a component, and can't distort the signal no matter how high its set. If you are trying to diagnose a system with excessive gain and don't know this, it can drive you crazy.
The best example to illustrate this concept is a guitar amp. No one wants any type of distortion in an audio system except people that play guitar. If you look at a guitar amp, you usually see a gain control right next to a volume control. To get an overdriven or distorted sound, you keep turning the gain up until you reach whatever sounds best for the application. Once you have the gain set, you then use the volume control to change how loud the system is.
"engineering is a series of finding the very best compromises to get you where you want to go...there are no perfect solutions" awesome stuff. Thank you for taking the time 🙂
As a software engineer, I can confirm this maps perfectly.
I use a currently I use my DAC as my pre-amp. It's an RME and the volume control is excellent. My amp has gain control on each side. Once I learned to turn down the gain, then dial it in, my whole system came alive. It was shocking to me, the improvement. I'm no expert on gain but feel it is one of the main keys in good sound and really isn't talked about enough.
Great question. I've always been curious about this question myself. Thanks for sharing.
what I found was that for my NAD av it sits pretty at 0dB so I put a pre-amp on that for that to control the volume, and the input to the pre-amp (here jack) is 100% (as in the case with most CD players)- this eliminated a lot of noise to where the system is completely silent, even with no input.
I just bought the Stellar Gain Cell Dac due to the sale last month and it smoked all of my other preamps! Very clean and transparent. It has a nice, simple remote which I like however it would be nice if it were backlit. Otherwise, highly recommend!
Thank you for explaining it! As you mentioned In some cases it's not a bad idea. I.e. my Luxman M-2000 power amplifier had gain control.
Good old Barrie Gilbert from the UK
I just popped in for the comments, there are acouple very good ones 👌
the best volume is an autoformer what can be placed at the speaker end of your Poweramp, buy them from electrical suppliers to put in the wall if you're adjusting volume in different rooms, just don't have your preamp driving the poweramp full blast can cause it to fail too much gain for long periods of time, adjust the volume on the preamp section between 88 - 93 % max.
I have an integrated amplifier (a Yamaha). Would the sound be in any way improved if I plugged everything into a separate pre-amplifier then plugged the preamp into the integrated amp's line in (assuming, of course, I had a decent preamp)?
Unless your Yamaha is very old, then it's likely to make no difference at all.
Modern amps are sonically transparents (no matter what Paul says, it is a scientific fact).
Why do people always want to complicate simple things ?
A DSD gain control would be perfect!
I keep my volume control midway and adjust the volume through my iPad so i don't have that resistor effect. seems to work for me.
I’ve had a ps audio GAINCELL DAC for about a month now and love it.. I have a marantz Av7706 that I thought sounded great I’m using the HT bypass and occasionally listen to airplay using the marantz just out of convenience but I’m annoyed with it knowing how much better the Gancell Dac sounds.
I’m also using 3 m700 monoblocks for my fronts and center.. I love everything about ps audios products. I also really enjoy your daily videos.. keep doing what you’re doing Paul.
Perhaps there is confusion added by calling every level control pot a "Volume" control. A "Volume" control should be used to describe the device/ system that allows control over the ultimate sound pressure levels generated by the speakers. Rather than every device/ circuit that can modify voltage levels along the way. A pot at an input like a power amp, while it does control the output sound level, is doing so by controlling input sensitivity. How much voltage it takes at the input terminals to produce full output. It should be perhaps be referred to therefore as an input sensitivity control rather than "Volume". Or a pot or circuit on a DAC output as an "output level" control and not a "volume" control.
Perhaps we should standardize on only one point/ device/ circuit as the "Volume" control and this would reduce some of that confusion.
I think an excellent premp is the way to go. After Axpona I went to my dealer in Chicago to pick up my CD player. In the meantime while I was waiting, there was a client that flew in and brought his own DAC to demo the Magico M6's that actually belonged to my dealer that were at the show in the Magico Luxman room. His client was using his DAC as a preamp and streaming to it using my dealer's Aurender A30. I was there and my dealer asked me what I thought when I purchased my "new" CD player that was used in the show 😁. Honestly, the highs were too forward and at times it was displeasing and fatiguing. I stuck around and his client mentioned this too. My dealer said this was because he was using his DAC as a preamp and it handles voltage to the amp much different. A preamp responds to voltage changes more smoothly like a sign wave, as opposed to a step type wave or square wave with notches. Again I'm not quoting him, but although he explained the technical part of what a great preamp does, I understood the concept. He then swapped in a preamp that matched the Amp and the speakers and music was instantly transformed. It was much more pleasant. Detail was still there, but the transients and vocals we're more natural than forced and fatiguing. The client purchased the system. 🎉
Theory goes the shortest signal path is best, yet nothing will sound very musical without a preamp in between the dac and amp.
@@peterlarkin762Yes, Thanks 😀👍
Paul, my Yamaha P2201 power amp has gain controls on front panel. Why didn't you mention that some power amps, professional sound reinforcement and home hifi, DO have gain controls? Don't a bright young guy to invent it. Or did I misunderstand the whole question and you answer? I run the P2201 at full power, zero gain reduction, and it seems to be the best way to avoid dirty contacts on the gain controls. I use a rebuilt NAD1020 preamp which has a high voltage RCA output on the rear panel (same internal circuit that feeds the headphone output on the front panel) to supply a fairly strong voltage to the P2201, which handles it with glee but my speakers limit me. (JBL L7, bi-wired). So I only go to about 50% on the preamp volume control to protect my speakers. Interestingly or maybe common for pro-amps, the P2201 does not have speaker protection circuit.
So if you're adding a variable gain control to a power amp isn't essentially turning it into an integrated amplifier with only one input?
Only if it includes the same gain stage(s) as are used in a separate preamp.
What is the price?
I'm glad I still get to stare at the IRS V's and drool.
I don't see any compromises with the FR 30's 😢🤓
No explanation/comments/discussion about the IRS V speakers in the room???
I think that's exactly how you control volume on amps by enleum that have been featured by a few hifi reviewers recently
At first I thought the title was:
The Best Way to Control Audio Pain.
Then I put on my eyeglasses..LOL.
Best Way to Control Audio Gain..😎
Personally, I always get the volume knob at maximum level, the dac with volume knob disabled and I control the overall audio at the source, using the Roon DSP. In this way, being my music streamed via Qobuz or HD files on a HD, I can control the audio via software, by a simple addition or subtraction operation, before they are sent to any electric circuits.
With no song playing the speakers are perfectly silent and I can control the volume in a very smooth way with 1 Db resolution.
I do the opposite. You can't reduce volume in software or DSP without losing bits and adding noise. However you can attenuate an analog signal without losing quality since it has "infinite" precision in comparison.
@@bitdevice That's true but most digital source devices/software have improved on that a lot and you can't really tell a difference between digital volume control and analog if implemented well enough. I keep using analog volume control because I like turning a real volume pot.
Just curious! what is the cost of equipment in this room?😂
About $60K for the gear, probably $20K in cables.
The IRS V speakers sold for $60K 30 years ago, and less than 60 where made.
And, yes, it made me cry when I auditioned it...
i get confused by all the names for things, what do you call my approach for digital sources: every power amp, dac and source is set to max. then use my minidsp shd studio for volume control. then volume is done in the digital domain and sent from there.
It's still used as a pre-amp, but without a potentiometer in the signal chain.
I like that approach. MiniDSP does some excellent products and I use one of those myself.
🤔 this is what I was wondering 💭 can’t this be done digitally 🤷♂️
@@PSA78 it sure does what is needed for me, and the only way to add dsp in my system.
wonder how it compares to more traditional pre amps for the volume value alone.
@@ThinkingBetter that volume knob is digital, so its programmed pretty well. with safety features and stuff. and those tactile step for knob feel :)
just wonder how it fares vs analog preamps sound wise.
Paul, how did you menage to invent and use "Gain cell" name for "your" module and sell it as your product, when you actually use VCA IC of semiconductor brand That corporation? So inside is that That corp. VCA and couple od Texas instruments OP amps around it.
I'm not going to pretend that I know about this, I leave it to the engineers to work this stuff out. Something digital, perhaps? :^D
Ok I'm new to pro audio I've got some TECHNICS FLOOR SPEAKERS FROM 1990 RATED 260 WATTS RMS AND I BAUGHT AN OLD QSC 1400 AMPLIFIER IM WONDERING WHAT POSITION I SHOULD SET THE GAINS ON THE QSC THE SPEAKERS ARE 8 OHM 260 WATT MAX RMS AND THE QSC IS SUPPOSED TO PUT OUT 200 WATTS RMS AT 8 OHMS I CURRENTLY HAVE THEM SET AT ABOUT 3/8 A LITTLE LESS THAN HALF WAY ON BOTH THE LEFT AND RIGHT AND THEN I HAVE A COUPLE 15 INCH POWERED SUBS I JUST NEED TO KNOW SO I DONT BLOW MY AMP IM A NOOB AT THIS THANKS IN ADVANCE LOVE YOUR VIDEOS
🙋❤️👍
once again where is Sprout Speakers?
Just a quick note here :- You cannot make a normal power amplifier to have unity gain ... it just can't happen !
Its France tot Fraansce