Tango /ˈtæŋɡoʊ/ Argentino 🇦🇷 es el nombre de un espectáculo que se baila en un escenario. Ahora el tango es patrimonio cultural de la humanidad y se baila en muchas partes del mundo 🇨🇴🇮🇹🇷🇺🇰🇷
Wow what an episode! Thank you. I feel your hurt, frustration and anger. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably - it takes so much courage to talk about the topics that you do. I have felt what you shared in tango and in other practices such as Biodanza. It still hurts, and I feel people will always judge/make comments without seeing us. I've responded in a similar way through blog when a Latina who never met me said that (me as a Biodanza Facilitator) "she's Asian, what would she know about feeling". Let's keep doing what we do best, encourage each other to grow. It's ok to feel the hurt. Some people will always be set in their ways, and they're probably not our audience ;-) PS I love how you are 2 Asian-Americans talking about Argentinian Tango. Love love love! Thank you for your great work
Asian guy myself, it's a complicated topic. In America, you'll always have to prove yourself to someone one way or the other. From the looks of it, you guys appear to have a lot of fun with great charisma, and let that be the light.
Fellow asian male leader here, I feel your pain. 🥰 Having lived and danced in the UK and Europe for nearly a decade, I've had plenty of troubles. Not outright discrimination of course, but there are many times when I don't feel as welcome as an average person, and let's not even get into dating. I find it way easier to connect with Argentinians and people from Suramérica compared to Europeans, and honestly despite my very bad Spanish, the Latinoamericanos treat me as one of their own. Maybe because I can sing tango! I think that being born and raised in a culture gives a person something ineffable that can never be obtained or learned by anyone else. Doesn't mean that it makes everyone else lesser or inferior. Maybe I don't have the blood of Copes or Laborde running in my veins; so what? The heirs of tango can sneer and turn their noses up at me, I still dance tango. And the porteñitas certainly agree (: (I still find it cringy when people take up drinking mate or other stereotypical Porteño things just as an affectation. Some even give themselves Spanish nicknames. Sure, I enjoy the taste of mate and fernet y coca, but the way some people try to make it their identity prominently reeks of desperation and low self-esteem.)
One thing that gets missed in these discussions is the meaning of the word "Tango" - In Argentina, it means a genre of music and a culture that also has a dance. In the USA it is a dance that has a music (sometimes not - think alt milongas) and culture that we fight to implement through codigo education and enforcement. So when and Argentine who was born and raised there but just started dancing tango sees himself as having a more authentic tango background than two bros from LA (Asian or not) he's thinking of the Argentine meaning of the word " Tango" And FWIW, learning Rioplatense Spanish, up to fluency really does help with this. You have been reading English translations of tango poetry at the end of your videos, but poetry doesn't translate well, and Spanish speakers could rightfully say that you are missing a lot of the "Tango" by reading translations.
Authentic tango is found in the pursuit of authenticity. If you arent Argentine, you cant be an authentic argentine, but you can be your authentic self. I think it is important to recall that tango is an amalgamation of dances frim multiple cultures. Also tango as it is today developed in buenos Aires after repatriating tango at least twice. Tango wasnt socially acceptable in BsAs until it found its way to the dance halls of Europe and back to BsAs in the 1920s. The current state of tango in BsAs arose because tango rooted itself outside of Argentina in the 1980s after a diaspora of dancers because of the dictatorship. I think like any art form, it is important to learn its roots and cultural infkuences. It is also important not to try to pretend to be something you are not. Drinking mate doesnt make you argentine any more than drinking mate makes you a tango dancer. Authenticity is the key. Mugre is the word. Find your self and share yourself with your partner.
15:20 I agree. This case is similar to food. Everyone could cook any cuisine, but they wouldn't taste the same as where the cuisine originally comes from. Maybe because the ingredients are different & also they don't know the "sauce" (the wisdom / secret technique behind the process.) I cringed when you Americans (American Vegans, to be exact) call Tempeh a "Superfood". Here in Indonesia, Tempeh is poor people's food, there's nothing super about being poor ,I suppose. Also, I've tried Indonesian food overseas. They looked the same, but tasted different. Maybe, that's also what Argentinians feel about Tango overseas.
Can't fault people who want real and authentic the way minority Americans demand from food. Restaurant owners and chefs must all be native to their culture or else they ain't buying it
Tango in Argentina is different from tango elsewhere, but that doesn’t mean it’s 100% superior in all aspects. Tango will continue to evolve and as long as people treat it with respect and add value to the dance I don’t see an issue. It’s like how whiskey making went around the world from Ireland -> Scotland -> America -> Japan -> Taiwan (simplification, i know there are a bunch of others), but all those countries have high quality whiskeys now with the Asian ones winning a ton of awards, and everyone get to appreciate it and only someone ignorant would say only Irish/Scottish whiskey is “true” whiskey. The same may be true for tango one day as long as there’s a focus on the excellence and quality of the dance.
@@youtuber42069-r I feel that tango has nowadays standardized in the last 10-15 years. Thanks to social media and fast internet, people can now tune in to the latest and greatest trends in Argentinean tango, favoring some figures, embraces, techniques over others. Before that it was more fragmented, someone would travel to Argentina, get a copy of a DVD with some steps and figures and they would bring it back to their hometown, and then people there would rehearse those steps and figures, and over time it might turn out to be a completely different thing, like how languages started to differ from each other. Thankfully, we don't have to deal with that in tango, and there is no excuse to do weird stuff and call it tango.
Most Asian women I have danced with in Buenos Aires, are great dancers. Think of this nobody will come from Asia to Argentina, spend $$$$$$ to not be able to dance well in a milonga. I have met top dancers from Japan, China, Thailand, and Malasia. None from Korea so far. Also in Europe I met top Asian dancers from Shangai and Viet-Nam. In Buenos Aires, Asian women are commonly chased by men for their excellent skill level. However many tourists come to Buenos Aires, asking for a “porteño”, regardless of how well he can dance, and refuse other foreigners who might dance well.
Derek and Robert, fantastic discussion. This topic has many aspects, you covered it well. Robert, I agree with you about foreign food In American restaurants being bland. Both of you are doing a great job. Look forward to your next video.
It's not that it's bland, but more that my taste buds is searching for something that feels more like home. It's not that we have a shortage of ingredients, but I think maybe the restaurants have to adapt to their customers. It's okay.
Thank you for mentioning my godfather Copes. I’m happy to hear you know who he is. Sadly, many people today don’t. It’s so wonderful to see you’ve educated yourselves. Bravo. 🙏🏻
Hello dear Derek and Bob, Bob and Derek; I have already written to you once - in that case about the subject “black book” - and here again I must dare to write to you, if you allow me to do so. I would love for you to read this long letter to the end. One of our most beloved idols was Japanese ! Baron Tsunami Megata, grandson of samurai. Ambassador of Japan in France, he fell in love with Tango there and when he returned to Japan, he opened a wonderful Academy. You would have seen his elegance and dignity ! There is a tango dedicated to him : “A lo Megata” ! And because you are of oriental origin, you feel you are second-class citizens of Tango because you are not Argentineans? What a big nonsense! Tell this to your detractors and to all other mediocre people who come across you, of which the world are plenty. I am a Corresponding Academic Member of the National Academy of Tango of Argentina (Corresponding means accredited abroad), and a Tango teacher (for different reasons Maestro, in fact), even at my 75 years of age. And I am writing to come to the rescue. I don't like all that stuff you guys are letting into your heads. That's putting the cart before the horse. Where did you guys get that “second-class citizen” feeling in Tango?. That's all wrong. The word Tango itself has an African origin, not Argentine, nor the word Milonga, nor the name of the Canyengue Style, also of African origin. And it was declared World Heritage, so it should be written with a capital “T”. So it also belongs to you. You are fully entitled to. Tango is NOT Argentine, it is rioplatense, (from the Rio de la Plata) and more specifically from Buenos Aires, and from a Buenos Aires that no longer exists. Being Argentine does NOT mean having any kind of passport that gives us any special authority in Tango just because we were born there. Yes, it could grant an evident authority to be an authentic milonguero, product of a moment and an area of the rioplatense society that nowadays has disappeared. And even so, that would not be enough to be declared Maestro. I was a student of true creators of Tango dance, concrete in the History of Tango, they were Maestros, but none of them taught. It was very difficult to access their knowledge and styles, and if that happened it was because one became first of all a very close friend. Some of them only opened to teach when they were quite old, something like a special Mission. While we're at it: let's talk about the “title” of “Maestro de Tango”: We see a lot of professional dancers who are presented as “ Maestros” and not because they necessarily demand it themselves, but because it is seen as logical that someone who is there to give an exhibition or to teach a class should be labeled as such. Well, in Tango it is not like that. How is the history of this ? It is not a “Master”, for example, nor is there any school, university or institution that can give you that title. It used to happen that after a lifetime of work exposed to public appreciation, for his content and values, a certain dancer began to be recognized as a Maestro. That is another thing. It is a title that people give you when they see and feel that your style of Tango dance is different, original, accurate, consistent, superior to others of the same spirit and subject, persistent in history, that constitutes a school in itself and has no possible replacement. “El Maestro Carlos Gardel” Do you think he gave private lessons? It is accepted that one can be a teacher, professor, etc., but not a Maestro for its own sake. Or because he has had a very transcendent teaching activity, officially recognized and extended. As a TOP in itself. Do you feel like “second-class citizens in Tango”? Where did these Maestros come from? The greatest (“El Cachafaz”) was of French descent. Rodolfo Cieri ? from Italians. Pepito Avellaneda, (Francisco Monteleone) from Italians. El Vasco Aín, of Spanish descent, Lampazo (José Vazquez), of Spanish descent. My mother, the only three times Gold Medalist and VIP Gold Lighthouse of the Bonerenses Tournaments, from Italians. My godmother (mentor) Carmencita Calderon, partner of Cachafaz, of Italian (Carmen Rizzo). Don't you know that one of the most loved Tango singers was Ranko Fujisawa ? Haven't you heard of Natsuki Nishihara, bandoneonist girl? or about Roberto Sugiura singer, or Kikuko, who becomes a bandoneon player when she discovers Piazzolla? Don't you know the bandoneon player who was a member of the orchestra of the GREAT Aníbal Troilo Yoshinori Yonehama, defined as “a select spirit, member of a distinguished Japanese family, born in Tokyo where he studied philosophy and letters”, and a long etcetera ? When I was studying Oriental Studies at the Universidad del Salvador I had as a colleague Eugenia Chikov, daughter of the Russian Count Chicov, a passionate aristocrat and Noble Tango lover who even created three famous steps. Do you know that the great Hollywood actor Robert Duvall (The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, etc.) is a fantastic Tango dancer, who was with us learning for more than 30 years for which he traveled to Buenos Aires regularly, where he got to know some of the real surviving Maestros. Do you think anyone would treat him with irony or contempt for not being “Argentine”? Robert is better than most ! You are honest seekers of Truth and you must defend it. NO ONE has the right to offend you or make you feel lesser, but you must hold high your dignity, which you richly deserve. You are sincere, educated, respectful. Sometimes Derek feels bad about being short (another nonsense!) most of the Maestros have been either short or of regular height. Pepito Avellaneda, the top of the top of the Orilleros, Master without discussion, was about 1.69, (I know because I am the same height and I spent years in front of him) and you do not know the huge belly he had “ This goes for Bob ....haha ! You guys are exceptional and Tango needs you. Enough of this nonsense. None of the teachers explained this to you? "You walk like a king, because the power within you makes you walk like that". Warmest hug. Carlos "El Tordo"
Argentine speaking here, you shouldn't care more than enough about authenticity, just be respectful and develop a relationship with any Argentine long enough and they will like you and respect you back, specially so in our country. Long term expats here do often highlight social life and relationships as one of the best aspects of living in Argentina. How much time and bonding did you try to have in Argentina? You have to be around long enough and get close. Notice I'm not talking about status, I'm talking about connecting and being loved by others, what's important? Argentines are more accessible than you think. BTW, now speaking about status, there were several foreign tango world champions (Asians too) in that respect. But remember Tango is not just a dance.
@@zaturnal Tango is not just a dance. I agree, but which bits, and from which era, do you take that 'culture'? There's an 'implementation' of aspects of that culture in Europe with El Corte. But is it a relevant 'culture' or even authentic?
@@CW-om2qq sorry but i don't quite understand. What i mean is that Tango is poetry and sensibility besides music, tango lyrics and lunfardo language are reflected in everyday idioms and phrases like "el que no llora, no mama, y el que no afana es un gil" e.g. Apart the golden decade, the weight of tango culture resides outside the dancing floor, it's tango for listening and singing: think soloist singer and tango icon Carlos Gardel before, or Salgán, Rovira and Piazzolla after; that's the way the majority of Argentines relate to the genre, be it during the 20's, 80's or now.
Art belongs to the living. Each generation and each locality must interpret and innovate for the art form to survive. Tango is no exception to the rule. Ignore the blowhards. Keep dancing and creating art. Love your podcasts.
As someone who's lived as a foreigner in Buenos Aires, I think you'd need about 10 more hours of podcasts to unpack the subtleties of this. Because I'd say on one hand there are many people that are range from reflexively prejudiced to hostile to foreigners dancing tango. But on the other hand, I think almost everyone I know from outside vastly underestimates the cultural difference between tango in Argentina and elsewhere. Shu in LA might be an interesting person to talk to about this because he experienced both bias when he was here but also acceptance in some of the most traditional and cultural parts of tango.
There’s a reason why the other south american countries think Argentina is stuck up / elitist. Hell, even Argentinians outside of BA think the same of Porteños. Go try forro or samba in Brazil and they’ll love you for even trying. Especially since Brazilians are so diverse so there no set “look” so people just assume you’re local at first. People always complain about tango being snobby/unfriendly, and yeah the 4-song tanda + depth of the dance adds to that, but it’s also part of the culture of argentina. Obviously there’s tons of friendly Argentinians and one can have an awesome time as a tourist dancing there, but you can definitely notice a different vibe between other south american countries and argentina, especially if you’re not white.
That stereotype exists but is largely outdated, just visiting as a tourist you could see people is not like that. Ask Venezuela inmigrants in Argentina how they see it. Look at Messi and many other players of the national team, they are really humble and down to earth.
@@zaturnalYou chose some quite poor examples. You can google online a lot of POC tourist experience of Argentina. You can even read about how a lot of argentine soccer fans will yell out monkey to brazilian soccer players. Of course not all Argentinians are like that but to pretend there isn’t an issue and that it’s outdated is being ignorant.
@@zaturnali mean the fact that you even cite the players of the national team being respectful when just last month there’s a viral video of Enzo and his teammates singing a racist chant following the Copa win. Just look it up, google isn’t hard.
@@marvinjlee59It’s a great country with a lot of culture and dancing tango there is an experience, but one should also be objective and call a spade a spade.
Don't let tango live in your head rent free. Obsessing over tango is a waste of your mental energy. Use it to enhance your life but don't let it drag you down with meaningless ponderings.
I wonder why Vernon and Irene Castle didn't call what they were doing tango in the early 1900s. They did the Castle Walk. They were still the most famous partner dancers of their time.
@@bertle615 Best as I understand it is a one step dance that they developed after dancing a lot in Paris. It is a way of walking that is based on tango walking. They had learned tango in Paris. Just goes to show how dance lives within us. We carry it to the next generation in our own way.
Anyone who judges a fellow dancer based on their race has a very limited understanding as to what makes a good dancer. Unfortunately ignorance persists.
I wouldn't beat myself over it. I guess it's the same prejudice that Asians had (and some still have) of Westerners learning Kung Fu or any other Asian martial arts. Like you will never embody the spirit and soul and yadda yadda. It's just something you have to plough through, until you prove yourself worthy. And if they still don't acknowledge you, well, there is nothing you can do but to walk away from those people. I just use it to my advantage, because coming from a place with lower expectation, suddenly you show up like that, they get impressed. They are just stereotypes. Like how Brazilians must be good at soccer, or how African Americans must be good at basketball. It's easier for people to "slide them through" and market that, just read the story of Brazilian football player Carlos Kaiser.
Guys can you make a video about followers who come in pants and flat shoes to the Milonga?! Im an ambitious dancer with good balance....with years of experience in other dancing styles and competing. Yet on some Milongas I just dont get Tandas. Men reject or ignore me or walk away when they see me walking in their direction. On one queer Milonga where all people knew each other no one wanted to dance with me eventho I lead too. Maybe its because people dont know me ( Im way more often at practicas. Rarely at Milongas.) What could be the reason?! Good dancers who take classes with me love me and how I dance. Im not a horrible personality. Im so confused
Just wanted to say, the thing that makes me want to dance with a follower most is the way she moves, on and off the dance floor. I don't care for competition, but I don't really care what a follower is wearing either (unless it's sequins/rhinestones that scratch my arms!). (:
I'm English, but I identified as European until they took it away with Brexit! But wit AT it's whether it's a dance, or it includes an older culture. Then we get into 'authenticity' versus 'tradition'. 'Authenticity' from the early 20th century, or earlier? Hang on you mean 'tradition' from the GA? Or is that 'tradition' as reported by some US visitor pre 1970's? Or maybe post-junta from the late 1980's? AT has evolved in the cultures to which it's been taken.
Tango /ˈtæŋɡoʊ/ Argentino 🇦🇷 es el nombre de un espectáculo que se baila en un escenario.
Ahora el tango es patrimonio cultural de la humanidad y se baila en muchas partes del mundo 🇨🇴🇮🇹🇷🇺🇰🇷
Wow what an episode! Thank you. I feel your hurt, frustration and anger. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably - it takes so much courage to talk about the topics that you do. I have felt what you shared in tango and in other practices such as Biodanza. It still hurts, and I feel people will always judge/make comments without seeing us. I've responded in a similar way through blog when a Latina who never met me said that (me as a Biodanza Facilitator) "she's Asian, what would she know about feeling". Let's keep doing what we do best, encourage each other to grow. It's ok to feel the hurt. Some people will always be set in their ways, and they're probably not our audience ;-) PS I love how you are 2 Asian-Americans talking about Argentinian Tango. Love love love! Thank you for your great work
I love them, and all people too. Never give any credence to people’s negative commentary on you. Pay them no mind.
@AGTngo I think it's important to listen to the negative stuff also. Sometimes there's a learning opportunity there.
Asian guy myself, it's a complicated topic. In America, you'll always have to prove yourself to someone one way or the other. From the looks of it, you guys appear to have a lot of fun with great charisma, and let that be the light.
Fellow asian male leader here, I feel your pain. 🥰
Having lived and danced in the UK and Europe for nearly a decade, I've had plenty of troubles. Not outright discrimination of course, but there are many times when I don't feel as welcome as an average person, and let's not even get into dating.
I find it way easier to connect with Argentinians and people from Suramérica compared to Europeans, and honestly despite my very bad Spanish, the Latinoamericanos treat me as one of their own. Maybe because I can sing tango!
I think that being born and raised in a culture gives a person something ineffable that can never be obtained or learned by anyone else. Doesn't mean that it makes everyone else lesser or inferior. Maybe I don't have the blood of Copes or Laborde running in my veins; so what? The heirs of tango can sneer and turn their noses up at me, I still dance tango. And the porteñitas certainly agree (:
(I still find it cringy when people take up drinking mate or other stereotypical Porteño things just as an affectation. Some even give themselves Spanish nicknames. Sure, I enjoy the taste of mate and fernet y coca, but the way some people try to make it their identity prominently reeks of desperation and low self-esteem.)
One thing that gets missed in these discussions is the meaning of the word "Tango" -
In Argentina, it means a genre of music and a culture that also has a dance. In the USA it is a dance that has a music (sometimes not - think alt milongas) and culture that we fight to implement through codigo education and enforcement.
So when and Argentine who was born and raised there but just started dancing tango sees himself as having a more authentic tango background than two bros from LA (Asian or not) he's thinking of the Argentine meaning of the word " Tango"
And FWIW, learning Rioplatense Spanish, up to fluency really does help with this. You have been reading English translations of tango poetry at the end of your videos, but poetry doesn't translate well, and Spanish speakers could rightfully say that you are missing a lot of the "Tango" by reading translations.
Authentic tango is found in the pursuit of authenticity. If you arent Argentine, you cant be an authentic argentine, but you can be your authentic self.
I think it is important to recall that tango is an amalgamation of dances frim multiple cultures. Also tango as it is today developed in buenos Aires after repatriating tango at least twice.
Tango wasnt socially acceptable in BsAs until it found its way to the dance halls of Europe and back to BsAs in the 1920s. The current state of tango in BsAs arose because tango rooted itself outside of Argentina in the 1980s after a diaspora of dancers because of the dictatorship.
I think like any art form, it is important to learn its roots and cultural infkuences. It is also important not to try to pretend to be something you are not. Drinking mate doesnt make you argentine any more than drinking mate makes you a tango dancer.
Authenticity is the key. Mugre is the word. Find your self and share yourself with your partner.
This. I repeat, this.
All this talk of pho is making me want some! My family is from Mexico, and I feel I bring a special flavor to tango. Fusion can be a beautiful thing!
Haha. Come to LA and we'll go for a food outing.
15:20 I agree. This case is similar to food. Everyone could cook any cuisine, but they wouldn't taste the same as where the cuisine originally comes from. Maybe because the ingredients are different & also they don't know the "sauce" (the wisdom / secret technique behind the process.)
I cringed when you Americans (American Vegans, to be exact) call Tempeh a "Superfood". Here in Indonesia, Tempeh is poor people's food, there's nothing super about being poor ,I suppose.
Also, I've tried Indonesian food overseas. They looked the same, but tasted different. Maybe, that's also what Argentinians feel about Tango overseas.
Can't fault people who want real and authentic the way minority Americans demand from food. Restaurant owners and chefs must all be native to their culture or else they ain't buying it
Tango in Argentina is different from tango elsewhere, but that doesn’t mean it’s 100% superior in all aspects. Tango will continue to evolve and as long as people treat it with respect and add value to the dance I don’t see an issue.
It’s like how whiskey making went around the world from Ireland -> Scotland -> America -> Japan -> Taiwan (simplification, i know there are a bunch of others), but all those countries have high quality whiskeys now with the Asian ones winning a ton of awards, and everyone get to appreciate it and only someone ignorant would say only Irish/Scottish whiskey is “true” whiskey.
The same may be true for tango one day as long as there’s a focus on the excellence and quality of the dance.
@@youtuber42069-r I feel that tango has nowadays standardized in the last 10-15 years. Thanks to social media and fast internet, people can now tune in to the latest and greatest trends in Argentinean tango, favoring some figures, embraces, techniques over others. Before that it was more fragmented, someone would travel to Argentina, get a copy of a DVD with some steps and figures and they would bring it back to their hometown, and then people there would rehearse those steps and figures, and over time it might turn out to be a completely different thing, like how languages started to differ from each other. Thankfully, we don't have to deal with that in tango, and there is no excuse to do weird stuff and call it tango.
@@youtuber42069-r You're right, it's whisky and whiskey. (:
Keep doing you. I find your commentary insightful, interesting, & from the heart.
Thanks. Much appreciated
Most Asian women I have danced with in Buenos Aires, are great dancers. Think of this nobody will come from Asia to Argentina, spend $$$$$$ to not be able to dance well in a milonga.
I have met top dancers from Japan, China, Thailand, and Malasia. None from Korea so far. Also in Europe I met top Asian dancers from Shangai and Viet-Nam.
In Buenos Aires, Asian women are commonly chased by men for their excellent skill level.
However many tourists come to Buenos Aires, asking for a “porteño”, regardless of how well he can dance, and refuse other foreigners who might dance well.
Derek and Robert, fantastic discussion. This topic has many aspects, you covered it well.
Robert, I agree with you about foreign food In American restaurants being bland.
Both of you are doing a great job. Look forward to your next video.
It's not that it's bland, but more that my taste buds is searching for something that feels more like home. It's not that we have a shortage of ingredients, but I think maybe the restaurants have to adapt to their customers. It's okay.
I had a similar ESL experience in Australia despite being here all my life... Made me LOL 😂
Thank you for mentioning my godfather Copes. I’m happy to hear you know who he is. Sadly, many people today don’t. It’s so wonderful to see you’ve educated yourselves. Bravo. 🙏🏻
I thought with the film, our last tango, people would know his name more.
@@bertle615 Still a very niche art film. @AGTngo , I think many who dive into tango history will know of him and Maria.
Hello dear Derek and Bob, Bob and Derek; I have already written to you once - in that case about the subject “black book” - and here again I must dare to write to you, if you allow me to do so.
I would love for you to read this long letter to the end.
One of our most beloved idols was Japanese ! Baron Tsunami Megata, grandson of samurai. Ambassador of Japan in France, he fell in love with Tango there and when he returned to Japan, he opened a wonderful Academy. You would have seen his elegance and dignity ! There is a tango dedicated to him : “A lo Megata” !
And because you are of oriental origin, you feel you are second-class citizens of Tango because you are not Argentineans?
What a big nonsense! Tell this to your detractors and to all other mediocre people who come across you, of which the world are plenty.
I am a Corresponding Academic Member of the National Academy of Tango of Argentina (Corresponding means accredited abroad), and a Tango teacher (for different reasons Maestro, in fact), even at my 75 years of age. And I am writing to come to the rescue.
I don't like all that stuff you guys are letting into your heads. That's putting the cart before the horse. Where did you guys get that “second-class citizen” feeling in Tango?.
That's all wrong.
The word Tango itself has an African origin, not Argentine, nor the word Milonga, nor the name of the Canyengue Style, also of African origin. And it was declared World Heritage, so it should be written with a capital “T”. So it also belongs to you. You are fully entitled to.
Tango is NOT Argentine, it is rioplatense, (from the Rio de la Plata) and more specifically from Buenos Aires, and from a Buenos Aires that no longer exists.
Being Argentine does NOT mean having any kind of passport that gives us any special authority in Tango just because we were born there.
Yes, it could grant an evident authority to be an authentic milonguero, product of a moment and an area of the rioplatense society that nowadays has disappeared. And even so, that would not be enough to be declared Maestro.
I was a student of true creators of Tango dance, concrete in the History of Tango, they were Maestros, but none of them taught. It was very difficult to access their knowledge and styles, and if that happened it was because one became first of all a very close friend. Some of them only opened to teach when they were quite old, something like a special Mission.
While we're at it: let's talk about the “title” of “Maestro de Tango”:
We see a lot of professional dancers who are presented as “ Maestros” and not because they necessarily demand it themselves, but because it is seen as logical that someone who is there to give an exhibition or to teach a class should be labeled as such. Well, in Tango it is not like that. How is the history of this ?
It is not a “Master”, for example, nor is there any school, university or institution that can give you that title. It used to happen that after a lifetime of work exposed to public appreciation, for his content and values, a certain dancer began to be recognized as a Maestro. That is another thing.
It is a title that people give you when they see and feel that your style of Tango dance is different, original, accurate, consistent, superior to others of the same spirit and subject, persistent in history, that constitutes a school in itself and has no possible replacement.
“El Maestro Carlos Gardel” Do you think he gave private lessons?
It is accepted that one can be a teacher, professor, etc., but not a Maestro for its own sake.
Or because he has had a very transcendent teaching activity, officially recognized and extended. As a TOP in itself.
Do you feel like “second-class citizens in Tango”? Where did these Maestros come from? The greatest (“El Cachafaz”) was of French descent. Rodolfo Cieri ? from Italians. Pepito Avellaneda, (Francisco Monteleone) from Italians.
El Vasco Aín, of Spanish descent, Lampazo (José Vazquez), of Spanish descent. My mother, the only three times Gold Medalist and VIP Gold Lighthouse of the Bonerenses Tournaments, from Italians. My godmother (mentor) Carmencita Calderon, partner of Cachafaz, of Italian (Carmen Rizzo).
Don't you know that one of the most loved Tango singers was Ranko Fujisawa ? Haven't you heard of Natsuki Nishihara, bandoneonist girl? or about Roberto Sugiura singer,
or Kikuko, who becomes a bandoneon player when she discovers Piazzolla?
Don't you know the bandoneon player who was a member of the orchestra of the GREAT Aníbal Troilo Yoshinori Yonehama, defined as “a select spirit, member of a distinguished Japanese family, born in Tokyo where he studied philosophy and letters”, and a long etcetera ?
When I was studying Oriental Studies at the Universidad del Salvador I had as a colleague Eugenia Chikov, daughter of the Russian Count Chicov, a passionate aristocrat and Noble Tango lover who even created three famous steps.
Do you know that the great Hollywood actor Robert Duvall (The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, etc.) is a fantastic Tango dancer, who was with us learning for more than 30 years for which he traveled to Buenos Aires regularly, where he got to know some of the real surviving Maestros. Do you think anyone would treat him with irony or contempt for not being “Argentine”? Robert is better than most !
You are honest seekers of Truth and you must defend it. NO ONE has the right to offend you or make you feel lesser, but you must hold high your dignity, which you richly deserve.
You are sincere, educated, respectful. Sometimes Derek feels bad about being short (another nonsense!) most of the Maestros have been either short or of regular height. Pepito Avellaneda, the top of the top of the Orilleros, Master without discussion, was about 1.69, (I know because I am the same height and I spent years in front of him) and you do not know the huge belly he had “ This goes for Bob ....haha !
You guys are exceptional and Tango needs you. Enough of this nonsense. None of the teachers explained this to you?
"You walk like a king, because the power within you makes you walk like that".
Warmest hug. Carlos "El Tordo"
Argentine speaking here, you shouldn't care more than enough about authenticity, just be respectful and develop a relationship with any Argentine long enough and they will like you and respect you back, specially so in our country. Long term expats here do often highlight social life and relationships as one of the best aspects of living in Argentina. How much time and bonding did you try to have in Argentina? You have to be around long enough and get close. Notice I'm not talking about status, I'm talking about connecting and being loved by others, what's important? Argentines are more accessible than you think. BTW, now speaking about status, there were several foreign tango world champions (Asians too) in that respect. But remember Tango is not just a dance.
@@zaturnal Tango is not just a dance. I agree, but which bits, and from which era, do you take that 'culture'? There's an 'implementation' of aspects of that culture in Europe with El Corte. But is it a relevant 'culture' or even authentic?
@@CW-om2qq sorry but i don't quite understand. What i mean is that Tango is poetry and sensibility besides music, tango lyrics and lunfardo language are reflected in everyday idioms and phrases like "el que no llora, no mama, y el que no afana es un gil" e.g. Apart the golden decade, the weight of tango culture resides outside the dancing floor, it's tango for listening and singing: think soloist singer and tango icon Carlos Gardel before, or Salgán, Rovira and Piazzolla after; that's the way the majority of Argentines relate to the genre, be it during the 20's, 80's or now.
Ironically, this is the second year in a row that a Brazilian is among the mundial winners.
What about Turkiye? They have a very strong Tango base but there has yet to be a Turkish champion as far as I know.
Art belongs to the living. Each generation and each locality must interpret and innovate for the art form to survive. Tango is no exception to the rule. Ignore the blowhards. Keep dancing and creating art. Love your podcasts.
@@foxycosta5124 I think the more people think about Argentine tango being about cocreating art in real time, the better.
As someone who's lived as a foreigner in Buenos Aires, I think you'd need about 10 more hours of podcasts to unpack the subtleties of this. Because I'd say on one hand there are many people that are range from reflexively prejudiced to hostile to foreigners dancing tango. But on the other hand, I think almost everyone I know from outside vastly underestimates the cultural difference between tango in Argentina and elsewhere. Shu in LA might be an interesting person to talk to about this because he experienced both bias when he was here but also acceptance in some of the most traditional and cultural parts of tango.
Definitely you and Shu def have far greater insight on this in terms of living in Buenos Aires. There definitely is a lot of subtleties for sure
Hi Derek, thank you for coming to Montréal on Sept 1 to T.D.J. for us, tangueros and tangueras. I wish you a great stay in the city.
@@francoishogue6073 looking forward to my first time in Montreal :)
There’s a reason why the other south american countries think Argentina is stuck up / elitist. Hell, even Argentinians outside of BA think the same of Porteños.
Go try forro or samba in Brazil and they’ll love you for even trying. Especially since Brazilians are so diverse so there no set “look” so people just assume you’re local at first.
People always complain about tango being snobby/unfriendly, and yeah the 4-song tanda + depth of the dance adds to that, but it’s also part of the culture of argentina.
Obviously there’s tons of friendly Argentinians and one can have an awesome time as a tourist dancing there, but you can definitely notice a different vibe between other south american countries and argentina, especially if you’re not white.
That stereotype exists but is largely outdated, just visiting as a tourist you could see people is not like that. Ask Venezuela inmigrants in Argentina how they see it. Look at Messi and many other players of the national team, they are really humble and down to earth.
@@zaturnalYou chose some quite poor examples. You can google online a lot of POC tourist experience of Argentina. You can even read about how a lot of argentine soccer fans will yell out monkey to brazilian soccer players.
Of course not all Argentinians are like that but to pretend there isn’t an issue and that it’s outdated is being ignorant.
@@zaturnali mean the fact that you even cite the players of the national team being respectful when just last month there’s a viral video of Enzo and his teammates singing a racist chant following the Copa win. Just look it up, google isn’t hard.
Reading this makes me never want to visit Argentina, ever!
@@marvinjlee59It’s a great country with a lot of culture and dancing tango there is an experience, but one should also be objective and call a spade a spade.
Don't let tango live in your head rent free. Obsessing over tango is a waste of your mental energy. Use it to enhance your life but don't let it drag you down with meaningless ponderings.
I wonder why Vernon and Irene Castle didn't call what they were doing tango in the early 1900s. They did the Castle Walk. They were still the most famous partner dancers of their time.
Never heard of the castle walk. Gotta look it up now
@@bertle615 Best as I understand it is a one step dance that they developed after dancing a lot in Paris. It is a way of walking that is based on tango walking. They had learned tango in Paris. Just goes to show how dance lives within us. We carry it to the next generation in our own way.
I always say and that’s how I feel: I am Russian but in my soul I am Argentinian. ( as I believe I was in my past life :)
Anyone who judges a fellow dancer based on their race has a very limited understanding as to what makes a good dancer. Unfortunately ignorance persists.
I wouldn't beat myself over it. I guess it's the same prejudice that Asians had (and some still have) of Westerners learning Kung Fu or any other Asian martial arts. Like you will never embody the spirit and soul and yadda yadda. It's just something you have to plough through, until you prove yourself worthy. And if they still don't acknowledge you, well, there is nothing you can do but to walk away from those people. I just use it to my advantage, because coming from a place with lower expectation, suddenly you show up like that, they get impressed.
They are just stereotypes. Like how Brazilians must be good at soccer, or how African Americans must be good at basketball. It's easier for people to "slide them through" and market that, just read the story of Brazilian football player Carlos Kaiser.
Never attempt to “prove yourself worthy”. You, as a human, are worthy. Full stop.
@@AGTngo Ok maybe that is a wording mistake. But prejudices will always exist, like it or not. And it's up to you to prove them wrong.
Guys can you make a video about followers who come in pants and flat shoes to the Milonga?! Im an ambitious dancer with good balance....with years of experience in other dancing styles and competing. Yet on some Milongas I just dont get Tandas. Men reject or ignore me or walk away when they see me walking in their direction. On one queer Milonga where all people knew each other no one wanted to dance with me eventho I lead too. Maybe its because people dont know me ( Im way more often at practicas. Rarely at Milongas.)
What could be the reason?!
Good dancers who take classes with me love me and how I dance. Im not a horrible personality. Im so confused
Just wanted to say, the thing that makes me want to dance with a follower most is the way she moves, on and off the dance floor. I don't care for competition, but I don't really care what a follower is wearing either (unless it's sequins/rhinestones that scratch my arms!). (:
Keep dancing, tangueros!
@estrelladetango
I'm English, but I identified as European until they took it away with Brexit!
But wit AT it's whether it's a dance, or it includes an older culture. Then we get into 'authenticity' versus 'tradition'. 'Authenticity' from the early 20th century, or earlier? Hang on you mean 'tradition' from the GA? Or is that 'tradition' as reported by some US visitor pre 1970's? Or maybe post-junta from the late 1980's? AT has evolved in the cultures to which it's been taken.