Thank you again to Dr. Wragg Sykes for sharing her expertise with the channel. Here are the three sites mentioned as examples of Neanderthal art and symbolism. Bruniquel Cave, France: vimeo.com/168174627 www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/25/neanderthals-built-mysterious-cave-structures-175000-years-ago Cioarei-Borosteni, Romania: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cioareiborosteni-cave-carpathian-mountains-romania-middle-palaeolithic-finds-and-technological-analysis-of-the-lithic-assemblages/45BC50FB0819EA236CB414853049C196 Fumane Cave, Italy: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0068572
science report paper comes out ,modern humans walked out of Africa 45,000 years ago.. So Australian aboriginal are not modern humans as they been in Australia 65,000 .. Why is this not on the news? this is a big story.
Humans just africa before then. They just didn't travel north to europe but hugged the coastline along asia. Europe was a pretty cold environment so we didn't spread north until we had better adapted our cultures to colder climates.
Stefan, The say Australian aboriginal have been in Australia for 65,000 years which I say is wrong. The oldest bones found are 41,000 years old that was lake mongo man and his DNA is modern human like all Australian aboriginal… I do believe there was something living in Australia before 45,000 years.. They even found a fire pit 120,000 years old, no modern Human could of made it..The oldest rock art is 10,000 year old so we no modern Human did it... here is the 120,000year old fire pit.. rsv.org.au/moyjil/?fbclid=IwAR3mTWPS1DuPxp7zzkuDbDEH1x6Qx2GIimkhVxcJNYLXH6R4TDAC6ktdeQk
Thank you Dr. Wagg Sykes for taking the time for the interview!! I'm just a humble 37 year old woman in America who loves to watch natural history UA-cam's as a hobby but I feel more people should know this information about ourselves and our hominid ancestors.
@@daphne4983 www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/experiments-show-how-neanderthals-made-first-glue-180964718/ The info is all over the place, but I thought this article was interesting...
I can't remember where I saw it, but two scientists tried to recreate this process from things Neanderthals would've had (egg shells, mud, etc) and it was HARD. I always wonder how someone could've come up with ideas/technology like this! I mean, that's not lightning striking a dry patch and creating fire to spark (ha!) the idea. I would love to be able to go back I time and watch the process of this invention.
Considering how long fairly modern science denied that animal even felt pain, and how many still deny that they have emotions, or the higher mammals have even rudimentary language, it is not amazing that they will deny early ancestors had symbolism or art.
While there is some controversy on the language front, linguists at least acknowledge that all of the individual agreed upon features of true language are present in various animals, just not combined all together anywhere but in us. I'd personally argue that at least some cetaceans have likely reached the point of language, and maybe some others, but beyond that, the argument becomes highly rooted in trying to define what *actually* "counts" as language, and I hate definition rooted debate. To elaborate, the primary debate is at what point does communication become language.
I believe in devo. I don't think the neanderthals were miserable. I think the OTHER. People coming in from Tunisia and screaming in off the central as8a steppes herded them into caves and ate them. Pther way around
@@Shade_Dragon Like I said, at that point, the question of whether or not something has language becomes so tightly interwoven with the question of what language even is that I don't line getting involved. I'd be perfectly willing to believe ravens have language, but until we can figure out ways to meaningfully translate, there's not much point. We can't know how complex a communication system is without being able to interpret it, and the ideas we have of what language is are so heavily rooted in its complexity... And that's entirely aside from the issue that, while we like putting things into nice neat categories with sharp dividing lines, nature is a lot less concerned with that (read: not at all), so it might be one of those things that are impossible to define to our satisfaction. In that debate I mentioned in my original comment, there is a camp that argues that we just keep changing the definition of language so that nothing else but what we use qualifies, and while I'm not sure that's the case, or that it's intentional, it wouldn't be the only time something like that happened in science. While I'm not as upset as some by Pluto being dropped out of the formal definition of planet, it's an odd coincidence that the definition of planet was changed shortly after the death of the man who discovered Pluto, and in just such a way as to exclude the only planet discovered by an American, while not affecting any of the other planets.
I'm going to go with musicals and caberets with perhaps an occasional mardi gras. I mean, the sparkly makeup had to be used for something. Who knows, maybe they even partied themselves into extinction.
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis Are you talking about Equus asinus, E. hemionus or E. kiang? And could you give me sources on the behaviour you're referring to?
Maybe I missed this but Neanderthals in Krapina made necklaces out of claws of huge eagle - claws were modified for stringing. See museum in Zagreb on this - it was published all over the world with photos
There is also a study that points to the neandertal use of bird feathers for symbolic purposes journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045927
What an interesting discussion. A complex set of ideas need this amount of time to unravel. Thank you both for allowing enough time on your channel. I enjoyed this much more than the sound bites we may get elsewhere,
It's kind of amazing that I'm having a class on Human Evolution and right about the same time you started making videos about Neanderthal and now this!
I think the only reason there's controversy about Neanderthal symbolism is that it would be a blow to our ego to have to admit that we aren't so special after all.
OmegaWolf747 sadly, your probably right. To be honest, I don’t know why such a revelation would be a blow to certain people. I mean, I don’t value human agriculture any less because I’ve learned ants & termites have been doing it way longer.
I doubt any ones ego will be damaged by the low effort 'art' of the neanderthal. I've seen 2 years olds who have produced better symbolism than a # on a cave wall or stones in a circle. Not exactly on the same level as the Lascaux Caves etc. It's kl that some neanderthal gave it a go and props for trying but ultimately they shouldn't quit their day jobs.
@@lmonk9517 Now that statement is off the wall of stupid and envious, Neanderthals had nothing to go off, they didn't have pens and crayons nor paper, the had no art education, everything they did was the first time it had ever been done, don't forget Neanderthals had bigger brains than even the largest brain race the Chinese/Far East people of today. I see you have no profile and highly likely no Neanderthal DNA.
@@panspermiahunter7597 Sorry mate but Neanderthals were just bad at art. sure the very first Neanderthals had the excuse that they had nothing to go off but Neanderthals were around many thousands of years and they barely made it to kindergarten level. Classic under achievers. Its not like Homo Sapiens had pens and paper when they painted the Altamira caves. I'm shamed to say that I've 1.6% Neanderthal. A little embarrassing , I know
Awesome discussion and interview! I personally think it's fairly reasonible to assume that neanderthals had at the very least some simplistic forms of artistic, emotional, and logical symbolism, and think this would go hand in hand with forming more complex and effective languages and social organization. Finding definitive or significant evidence for that on the other hand is still a compelling endeavor. It's important to rule out our own biases on either side of the supposed controversy, revealing what was rather than filling in the blanks with our own assumptions and imaginations, regardless of whether or not they're flawed.
@@williampage6270 I saw something about several similar finds, but later found that some scholars argue that in some cases, the holes in the (bear, o vulture) bones might have been made by a predator bite, or have an Aurignacian origin. The reconstructed replica of one such "instrument" sounds fine, though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_Flute
@@josem.deteresa2282 thanks Jose for that information I also have found they're reconstructed it and played ànd recorded the sound but I couldn't find it
Just coming from the hancock debunk video and this topic strikes me as a perfect example of a fascinating "mystery" that is far more fact based than the ancient apocalypse/advanced civ stuff. The truth is that we really are regularly discovering new stuff that suggests that ancient humans were more advanced than previously thought and that by itself is enthralling, all the more so because its got 'boring' research beneath it. You can challenge authority/status quo by saying "i believe the Neanderthals did art." And you might be right! Is that not fun? I think its fun. You could even do a dramatic netflix special about it!
Wow! You've posted many amazing interviews, but this one, at least to me, really takes the cake! I don't often make comments, (my typing being slow and riddled with typos being one reason for this), but the content of this conversation compels me to comment. BTY your channel has become one of my favorite sources both of information and entertainment, so Thank You! A bit more than halfway through this interview and before, it became an area discussed in the interview, various factors being discussed provoked or triggered the remembrance of the idea that the "Neanderthal" population did not die out or go extinct, but rather over time became absorbed into the "Homo Sapiens" expanding population. Hominids having, since there first emergence, living in social groups, and procuring, all that they needed for survival through group activities, suggests that in all times' but especially in difficult times, being part of a group was a personal survival necessity. I also appreciated the discussion concerning the tendency to treat "Neanderthals" as a unity regardless of geographical or temporal location. This reminds me of the way we, in the U.S.A. tend to consider cuisines of other countries as a unity: i.e. You don't really find Mexican food in Mexico, Italian food in Italy, Greek food in Greece, and so on. (Even in this country, Mexican food in California tends to be different than Mexican food in Arizona, which is different than Mexican food in New Mexico, which is also different form Mexican food in Texas. And these differences are dwarfed by the regional differences in cuisine that one would encounter traveling from one region of Mexico to another.We do tend to lump and simplify our perceptions of those that we consider "others" into a false unity. On a slightly different, but related track , prior to the era of radio, movies with audio dialogue, and television, and especially in times when travel was difficult language in isolated areas tended to relatively quickly, evolve in different ways, leading to variant dialects, that could further evolve into differing languages. Yet, In Sci-fi encounters with beings from other worlds, the residents of those worlds are almost always depicted as having a common language! As Spock might say, "highly illogical!" Hmm, this is already the longest comment that I've ever made, but I also want to tell you how much I appreciate your enthusiasm for these subjects, especially as you combine this with the due respect for the evidence. You even make clear distinctions between what is possible, probable or likely, and nearly certain according to the evidence. And you do this in a very entertaining manner. ( This kind of reminds me of another English perhaps better well-known presenter, David something or other. Any ways Bravo and Thank you.
Given the history of comparative biology and psychology it's going to come down to matter of definition and degree. It would see extreme to believe that neanderthals didn't use symbols. It more of a questions of how much. They could have been great stories tellers or maybe very simple stories about how bears behave. And definition of "art" vary so much it's not hard to imagine one of those definitions would apply to whatever it is that neanderthals did. Great interview, it is interesting to listen to people trying to figure out such very difficult problems.
Thanks a lot to you both for this interesting video. I have a question: is there any differentiation in the spatial positions of the art left by neanderthal and sapiens within the caves? For example, did the neanderthals tend to leave their representations deeper within the caves than sapiens?
What a great coincidence that this should pop up, I just finished her book, Kindred. It’s was an excellent read, very insightful and enjoyable. It’s nice to hear her expound on the subject, thanks for interviewing her.
around 34:20 she mentions "this is a site where they appear to be butchering the dead, which is a whole other topic" -- can we get a part 2 about this? and other mysteries? great guest and conversation! love it
Ancient neolithic people would cut up and eat the dead. Then they would scrape the bones clean and smash them to pieces. Probably as a spiritual ritual for the afterlife.
Thank you SO MUCH for this amazing discussion!! Stefan, your channel's great - as you continue, please keep us informed about any updates on the many fascinating topics you discuss.
What a nice and clever Lady... She seems to have not only a very good understanding of us Neanderthals but also real empathy... I feel well understood... .! ! !
I stopped the 15:56 when she said there was no practical reason to use pigments. There's several. As a hunter and a warrior. We used face paint to camouflage ourselves and die different clothing articles. Perhaps you would color something to make it more visible. There are droves of applications you can use pigments for other than "because they wanted it to look pretty".
I'm about 1/2 way through this podcast so forgive me if this is covered later; there was a study published this year I believe, looking at the evidence for or against neanderthals being intelligent. the authors discounted any controversial/anomalous archaeology and came to the conclusion that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting intelligence and quite a bit supporting a spirituality, so self awareness beyond mere survival. They also looked at why there is a bias against neanderthal intelligence and came to some interesting conclusions.
Check out The History of Being Human podcast by Noel Armstrong. He does a whole series on this topic about early hominins and canalabalism. Highly recommended!
I just started reading the novel series "earth's children" by Jean Auel. It is a fictional story about the interactions between neanderthals and cromagnons. Super interesting. Wonder if you have come across this series and if you know of any other similar novels?
Hey, try the ''First Americans'' series by William Sarabande. The first book is called ''Beyond the Sea of Ice''. There aren't any Neanderthals in those books, but they're really good. At least good as the Earth's Children.
This is excellent, as always! Aboriginal, Native, and First Nations peoples still use mineral pigments for medicine, beauty, expression, sun screen, bug and insect deterrent/repellent, masking their scents, reducing light reflectivity, and camouflage. Of course it's also used in ceremonies and religio-cultural events, and historically it would have also been used for war and for intimidation. Mineral pigments can also be used for preservation, waterproofing and surface treatment for wood and leather for bows and arrows, boats, pottery, weapons and shelters.
I knew I needed to be in the right state of mind with this one. Talking about anything art or symbol without the visual object or application....? The Doctor did a good job of presenting the material in spite of this horrid limitation.
Thank you Dr. Rebecca Wragg Sykes for sharing your meticulous views and thoughts. When one starts to speak of utilitarian uses for Earth pigments such as processing animal skins and enhancing the performance of adhesives used in hafting, I think that the amount of abstract thought involved in developing such processes over time is far more complex than sticking your finger in some mud and drawing an image on a cave wall. Still, from the obvious sophistication and facility displayed in much cave art, it would seem that the "artists" had to be practicing elsewhere, but in a medium that was extremely ephemeral; that act of practicing is where the abstract thought would have been occurring and for which there could not possibly be any evidence. The amount of image memory - mind's eye - hand coordination necessary is, I think, staggering. Much of archaeology ends with an effort to nail the night sky to a wooden floor with the only acceptable tool allowed being a cucumber.
WOW dude. I saw a video from the Milo pre-morning coffee and clicked right away. Finished coffee and was like WTF this guy's still talking. I set it aside, did my PT routine, and put it back on for cool down. ...still talking.. I finally checked the length and dude, this is next level stuff! Congratulations. Now I know to check if your stuff needs to get saved for evening viewing. I'm half way through, and will probably finish watching at lunch. There are probably lots of people like me watching in sessions. I'm just saying, take this into consideration when you look at your viewer retention statistics. There are several channels I watch in the evenings with content like this. Nick's geology lectures from Central Washington University, Event Horizon, Issac Arthur, Harvard's CfA Colloquium, and Skydive Phil's physics documentaries are a few of my favorites. This upload lacks the visuals but it more than makes up for it with the interesting content. Personally I would try to do a bit more editing around your interruptions just to try to improve the emotional flow a bit, but I know exactly how much work this is and I don't have the hardware to do this, or fault you for the time management. This is awesome. I hope you have the opportunity and motivation to do more like this. Thanks for the upload. -Jake
I think dr wag is correct. When your new to a new land it pays to blend in. After all the Neanderthals knew how to endure the weather and edibles. Best way to make family and survive. I'm sure there was competition, but I'm sure later.
At about the 40minute mark, discussing the small stone structures laid vertically, then horizontally, the researcher says 'We don't have the language to describe what this is'. But we do! They are inukshuk.
Neanderthals were so similar to us that we could interbreed... so the notion that their brains worked in a fundamentally different way from ours just doesn't make any kind sense.
@@tylersilver3957 I think that language probably predates the ability to vocalize, but yes, it's hard to imagine that a species that could successful interbreed with us would have anatomy that didn't allow speech.
@@Great_Olaf5 Even chimpanzees use crude hand signals and vocalizations. The adaptation of our larynx to allow for speech is a very disadvantageous one (it means that unlike most mammals, we can't breathe and swallow at the same time), so it's very unlikely that this change came by itself without some form of language already existing.
This is the kind of quility content i love, great work! P.S.: This kind of "podcasts" would be awesome to have on Spotify, do you have Spotify with this kind of content/ plans for setting that up? Also i wonder, u, is any of ur ancestry traceble to former Yugoslavia? Seeing how much history that region has (Most people only think of the breakup and the horrible wars that followed) it would be cool to dive deeper in that if it's the case! From the Sićevačka jawbone to the Starčevo culture, from Tiberius II to Tito. Much love from The Netherlands!!!
Amazing video and exchange at the exact opposition of what YT loves to promote, you know the 10 minutes "entertaining" ones in the best case scenario. Such an ongoing sphere of studies, discoveries and self-questioning but in the long run a lesson on how hard and complex it is to apprehend History and as you can guess Prehistory- Captain Obiious strikes again!-. Great Chan sir, thank you very much for your work and an almighty thanks to Rebecca! This video is a jewel in my humble opinion.
I love your videos. I subscribed a week ago and I'm watching all your videos. There are a good amount of UA-camrs that speak about the same topics you do but they are so boring I can not listen to 5 minutes of them but you are one of the good ones. Your information and graphics are very good and you present it in a entertaining way. Just wanted to let you know. I'm glad this one is an hour long.
Breeding between the subspecies may have occurred simply because Neanderthals were cute. Any one who has ever loved a little Danish/Dam troll doll understands that. They are adorable, and the spitting image of Neanderthals.
That was fascinating. Never would have thought the boundaries between Sapiens and Neanderthal were so fuzzy and blurred-together over such a wide span of time and in so many facets.
I have a suggestion, I think those longe, "videoless" interviews work better as a podcast. It`s hard for people without youtube premium to watch videos on the background on the go. Anyways, thanks for the awesome job! I really enjoy your work!
I really appreciate when an academic can entertain new or contradictory beliefs openly without cognitive dissonance or gate keeping on others just because of a lack of fancy paper. You don't stray far from the facts but you do allude to more. You're open to new things. I'd really like to see you examine with an open mind some "fringe" theories. White sands for instance. Things that challenge the narrative
@travisaurand7550 - Even as a kid, I had deep faith that the Neanderthals were still with us and were intelligent, and had speech. It is wonderful that history has finally caught up to them. Thank you, Great-Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandparenrs!
no stone carvings are found at neanderthal sites but they could have carved wood. they could make items out of wood for a camp and they would never show up in archeological records. aboriginal Australians do that. they made tools and instruments when thet are out in the bush and leave them when they move on rather than carrying those items with. if they were piercing hides to stretch them and make clothing then they had the mind power to make other things from raw hide and leather that would not be found 100,000 years later. stone work took time and it is heavy. wood carves easier and faster. i believe people in the sciences under estimate neanderthal technology. they certainly gathered plants and cooked. they most likely made baskets for a variety of purposes. they would have had a very intimate relationship with plants.
Can we appreciate how excellent the sound quality for this excellent interview is? Plus, the disembodied skull voicing the conversation in the background is a nice touch
What if Neanderthals made arrangements of twigs & feathers or weaving grass into shapes? What if they considered making permanent art that doesn't fade away sacrilegious?
4 роки тому
possible. I read somewhere that a native American tribe made sand paintings with that intent. sorry. no link. something I read pre internet.
The Hopi culture conducts religious ceremonies in which shamans make elaborate sand paintings with different colors of sand over the course days and ritualistic chanting, then destroy the paintings as a way of symbolically cleansing the spirit of the subject of the ceremony.
such a great discussion! I could be mistaken but I thought there was a find of a Neanderthal burial as well which had significant pollen over the body suggesting a laying of flowers over the body before burial. which if true seems to be another strong case for Neanderthal symbolism.
An excellent survey of recent Neanderthal information. Despite Neandertals were first discovered a year after the Origin of Species was published in 1859, we still are learning so much. I still am more of a lumper than a splitter and view Neandertals, as one did in the 1960s and early 70s, as subspecies (Ernst Mayr's definition of species e.g. fertile offspring of sexually reproductive forms) Homo sapiens neandertalis. Splitters type paleobiologist seem to get more recognition unfortunately because publishing a new species causes buzz (e.g. financial reward for someone if not the author themselves).
Thank you Rebecca Wragg Sykes so very much for your marvelous insight and vision. This is an hilarious topic and will most likely always be circular. Before we can discuss whether or not anyone, at any time, creates "art", we must absolutely define exactly and precisely what "art" is. Is it symbolism? Then we must define exactly and precisely the nature of symbolism. Regardless of how either "art" or "symbolism" is defined I think that a fair question would be, do MOST modern humans EVER exercise art or symbolism with their own minds and hands? Is self expression art? Today, song and dance are considered high forms of self expression and "art" that beg no use of tools of any kind and can not possibly ever produce any fossil evidence. Because any being has the potential to do anything does not mean that they could or would do whatever that anything might be. Today, how many homo sapiens practice (especially in what is called the "Western World") dance, song, the playing of any musical instrument, create graphic images of any kind, or create what could be called sculptural three dimensional forms or images? Perhaps it is that Neanderthals decided to not do certain things and not engage in certain practices; they knew they could, but decided not to.
Her book comes out tomorrow! I pre-ordered it after watching this video. I'll let ya all know when I get it. Very excited. Amazing interview and my favorite video. Re watching for excitement on her book coming out. Woohoo.
50:57 I am fascinated by this , wondering how when these groups met and joined , how they communicated the concepts nescssary to mingle . To me it was art based , maybe using the dirt / sticks/stone/horn/bone to scrarch out pictoral representations of things - pictures being a universal , and thus spoken terms of these things becoming able to be shared ... if that makes sense .
Stefan instead of focus on Neanderthals you could extend this to the cult caves of Europe, there's very clear symbolism in those. The cross symbol actually originates in these stone age caves.
Clay and mud on the skin provides protection from insects, protection from UV, as well as marking tribal identity and role etc. Also, black manganese dioxide is capable of aiding firestarting by lowering ignition point (cayalysis of ignition). Gah - she just now brought this up after I'd already written it down -
It interesting how in our western societies we so often pin everything into categories of winners and losers the victors and the vanquished but more often then not it doesn't really work like that and this is the perfect example of how there isn't always a clearly defined winner or loser.
I wish people would consult with artists more when considering “symbolism” and art in archaeology. “Symbolism” also needs some review and possible dismissal.
Lovely "video", i always love to this kind of things while drawing. Lindybeige is another great channel for that, unfortunatly he gives visual examples a lot so if you don't *watch* his hour long talks you miss a lot of context... Here i miss nothing visually when i draw!
I found a stone on the western coast of Sweden in 1980. It was unlike any stones around it. Questions: Where can I find out more about this stone? I have a good photo of the stone, but do not know how to attach it to this comment. Thank you, I enjoy your podcasts.
I’ll have finish this later but interesting.. I remember a show by the Naked Archeologist of a cave in Northern Israel that showed Neanderthal living there at the same time as homo sapian with possible skeleton of inter breading..? Any thoughts?
Painting images is always a way of thinking out loud? Learning by Doing until it becomes Intuition is a kind of Lamarkian theory of Actual Intelligence, like the "Job Makes the Manager" is more influential than the Management making real improvement. Intensely interesting talk. Thank you.
If you ever get her on again, maybe you could get her to comment on symbols vs. animal. Genevieve von Petzinger has a great TED talk on the 32 common symbols in cave paintings which span large areas and long periods of time to be coincidence. Also her book is "The First Signs", published 2017. Or better yet, try to get Genevieve on!
What a wonderful talk and topic. Milo, I wonder if you could comment on those artifacts: Portable-engravings-on-a-forest-elephant-bone-fragment-from-Bilzingsleben-Germany-c.png Bovid-bone-fragment-bearing-10-grooves-Kozarnika-Cave-Belogradchik-Vidin-region.png Thanks! Alex
In Australia they eat bits of termite mounds, which have iron in a form that can be easily absorbed. I think all kids eat dirt and try mud paint and mud moccasins etc. Mud is wonderful.
The burial of the dead and cave bear skull displays present solid evidence to me along with decorative objects. I dont know what other evidence coulde be found.
You need to have oral tradition for proto religion. For example Australian aboriginals have stories from generations ago that explain what to eat in the case of severe drought that only happens every few generations. Verses, needing a spear tool every generation. You don't have ancestor myths that morph into into deities without multi generational knowledge. Unfortunately i can't even think of a way you could test for this in archeology.
@@thoughtscanbedisease4495 Fascinating. Ok... there has to be a way to show oral tradition, if it existed! 1. If Neander art is found that depicts long term phenomenon, such as precession of equinoxes, that would show multi-generational transfer of knowledge. (or cross species transfer with sapeins, which would also be a win). 2. If Neander art in distant areas showed the same elements, and these elements do not seem obvious from the environment, that would also argue for oral tradition. (or a very mobile art crew). I suppose oral tradition also needs a supernatural imagination to become religion. I feel that early humanoids were generally religious, and so my guess is that Neanders had proto religion, and this will be huge when enough Neander art is known, and can be tested by ideas like yours.
Thank you again to Dr. Wragg Sykes for sharing her expertise with the channel. Here are the three sites mentioned as examples of Neanderthal art and symbolism.
Bruniquel Cave, France: vimeo.com/168174627
www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/25/neanderthals-built-mysterious-cave-structures-175000-years-ago
Cioarei-Borosteni, Romania:
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cioareiborosteni-cave-carpathian-mountains-romania-middle-palaeolithic-finds-and-technological-analysis-of-the-lithic-assemblages/45BC50FB0819EA236CB414853049C196
Fumane Cave, Italy:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0068572
Your videos help a lot as a archeology student love your video's
science report paper comes out ,modern humans walked out of Africa 45,000 years ago.. So Australian aboriginal are not modern humans as they been in Australia 65,000 .. Why is this not on the news? this is a big story.
Humans just africa before then. They just didn't travel north to europe but hugged the coastline along asia. Europe was a pretty cold environment so we didn't spread north until we had better adapted our cultures to colder climates.
Stefan, The say Australian aboriginal have been in Australia for 65,000 years which I say is wrong. The oldest bones found are 41,000 years old that was lake mongo man and his DNA is modern human like all Australian aboriginal… I do believe there was something living in Australia before 45,000 years.. They even found a fire pit 120,000 years old, no modern Human could of made it..The oldest rock art is 10,000 year old so we no modern Human did it... here is the 120,000year old fire pit.. rsv.org.au/moyjil/?fbclid=IwAR3mTWPS1DuPxp7zzkuDbDEH1x6Qx2GIimkhVxcJNYLXH6R4TDAC6ktdeQk
Thank you Dr. Wagg Sykes for taking the time for the interview!! I'm just a humble 37 year old woman in America who loves to watch natural history UA-cam's as a hobby but I feel more people should know this information about ourselves and our hominid ancestors.
Neanderthals were the first to synthesize pitch tar from birch bark to affix stone points on thrusting spears. This shows imagination.
Chris Bishop And that takes a high degree of planning, patience, and technological skill.
Source?
@@daphne4983 www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/experiments-show-how-neanderthals-made-first-glue-180964718/ The info is all over the place, but I thought this article was interesting...
@@matthewlarson2161 thx
I can't remember where I saw it, but two scientists tried to recreate this process from things Neanderthals would've had (egg shells, mud, etc) and it was HARD. I always wonder how someone could've come up with ideas/technology like this! I mean, that's not lightning striking a dry patch and creating fire to spark (ha!) the idea. I would love to be able to go back I time and watch the process of this invention.
Considering how long fairly modern science denied that animal even felt pain, and how many still deny that they have emotions, or the higher mammals have even rudimentary language, it is not amazing that they will deny early ancestors had symbolism or art.
these academics must never have had a cat
While there is some controversy on the language front, linguists at least acknowledge that all of the individual agreed upon features of true language are present in various animals, just not combined all together anywhere but in us. I'd personally argue that at least some cetaceans have likely reached the point of language, and maybe some others, but beyond that, the argument becomes highly rooted in trying to define what *actually* "counts" as language, and I hate definition rooted debate. To elaborate, the primary debate is at what point does communication become language.
I believe in devo. I don't think the neanderthals were miserable. I think the OTHER. People coming in from Tunisia and screaming in off the central as8a steppes herded them into caves and ate them. Pther way around
@@Great_Olaf5 what do you think of the theory that ravens have language?
@@Shade_Dragon Like I said, at that point, the question of whether or not something has language becomes so tightly interwoven with the question of what language even is that I don't line getting involved. I'd be perfectly willing to believe ravens have language, but until we can figure out ways to meaningfully translate, there's not much point. We can't know how complex a communication system is without being able to interpret it, and the ideas we have of what language is are so heavily rooted in its complexity... And that's entirely aside from the issue that, while we like putting things into nice neat categories with sharp dividing lines, nature is a lot less concerned with that (read: not at all), so it might be one of those things that are impossible to define to our satisfaction. In that debate I mentioned in my original comment, there is a camp that argues that we just keep changing the definition of language so that nothing else but what we use qualifies, and while I'm not sure that's the case, or that it's intentional, it wouldn't be the only time something like that happened in science. While I'm not as upset as some by Pluto being dropped out of the formal definition of planet, it's an odd coincidence that the definition of planet was changed shortly after the death of the man who discovered Pluto, and in just such a way as to exclude the only planet discovered by an American, while not affecting any of the other planets.
I bet the neanderthals made sand castles, snow angels and mud cakes. Great video, Milo and Sykes!
I would not bet against you there.
@@nmarbletoe8210 fckng stupid normal ass animals do similar stuff...
I'm going to go with musicals and caberets with perhaps an occasional mardi gras. I mean, the sparkly makeup had to be used for something.
Who knows, maybe they even partied themselves into extinction.
@@SofaKingShit every society has psychedelics!
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis Are you talking about Equus asinus, E. hemionus or E. kiang? And could you give me sources on the behaviour you're referring to?
Maybe I missed this but Neanderthals in Krapina made necklaces out of claws of huge eagle - claws were modified for stringing. See museum in Zagreb on this - it was published all over the world with photos
There is also a study that points to the neandertal use of bird feathers for symbolic purposes journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045927
Honestly it' just scientists being overly cautious, because it's quite obvious just how human neanderthals were
What an interesting discussion. A complex set of ideas need this amount of time to unravel. Thank you both for allowing enough time on your channel. I enjoyed this much more than the sound bites we may get elsewhere,
Hopefully you can have her on again when the book is published.
It comes out tomorrow
Thank you both for giving your time, expertise, passion and focus to this offering. It excites me to hear your views.
It's kind of amazing that I'm having a class on Human Evolution and right about the same time you started making videos about Neanderthal and now this!
Very nice. Genetics has advanced to a level I could have never imagines back when I studied it in the early 80's.
Keep it up!
I think the only reason there's controversy about Neanderthal symbolism is that it would be a blow to our ego to have to admit that we aren't so special after all.
OmegaWolf747 sadly, your probably right. To be honest, I don’t know why such a revelation would be a blow to certain people. I mean, I don’t value human agriculture any less because I’ve learned ants & termites have been doing it way longer.
Speak for yourself. As a European descendant I am part Neanderthal therefore I am still special... 😂
I doubt any ones ego will be damaged by the low effort 'art' of the neanderthal. I've seen 2 years olds who have produced better symbolism than a # on a cave wall or stones in a circle. Not exactly on the same level as the Lascaux Caves etc. It's kl that some neanderthal gave it a go and props for trying but ultimately they shouldn't quit their day jobs.
@@lmonk9517 Now that statement is off the wall of stupid and envious, Neanderthals had nothing to go off, they didn't have pens and crayons nor paper, the had no art education, everything they did was the first time it had ever been done, don't forget Neanderthals had bigger brains than even the largest brain race the Chinese/Far East people of today.
I see you have no profile and highly likely no Neanderthal DNA.
@@panspermiahunter7597 Sorry mate but Neanderthals were just bad at art. sure the very first Neanderthals had the excuse that they had nothing to go off but Neanderthals were around many thousands of years and they barely made it to kindergarten level. Classic under achievers. Its not like Homo Sapiens had pens and paper when they painted the Altamira caves.
I'm shamed to say that I've 1.6% Neanderthal. A little embarrassing , I know
More interviews like this would be great, especially with people who can communicate really well like Dr. Sykes.
Thank you so much for putting this together for your viewers. Amazing amazing stuff!!
Awesome discussion and interview!
I personally think it's fairly reasonible to assume that neanderthals had at the very least some simplistic forms of artistic, emotional, and logical symbolism, and think this would go hand in hand with forming more complex and effective languages and social organization.
Finding definitive or significant evidence for that on the other hand is still a compelling endeavor. It's important to rule out our own biases on either side of the supposed controversy, revealing what was rather than filling in the blanks with our own assumptions and imaginations, regardless of whether or not they're flawed.
William page I believe read or seen a video where a bone musical whistle was found
@@williampage6270 I saw something about several similar finds, but later found that some scholars argue that in some cases, the holes in the (bear, o vulture) bones might have been made by a predator bite, or have an Aurignacian origin. The reconstructed replica of one such "instrument" sounds fine, though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_Flute
@@josem.deteresa2282 thanks Jose for that information I also have found they're reconstructed it and played ànd recorded the sound but I couldn't find it
Just coming from the hancock debunk video and this topic strikes me as a perfect example of a fascinating "mystery" that is far more fact based than the ancient apocalypse/advanced civ stuff. The truth is that we really are regularly discovering new stuff that suggests that ancient humans were more advanced than previously thought and that by itself is enthralling, all the more so because its got 'boring' research beneath it. You can challenge authority/status quo by saying "i believe the Neanderthals did art." And you might be right! Is that not fun? I think its fun. You could even do a dramatic netflix special about it!
Wow! You've posted many amazing interviews, but this one, at least to me, really takes the cake! I don't often make comments, (my typing being slow and riddled with typos being one reason for this), but the content of this conversation compels me to comment. BTY your channel has become one of my favorite sources both of information and entertainment, so Thank You! A bit more than halfway through this interview and before, it became an area discussed in the interview, various factors being discussed provoked or triggered the remembrance of the idea that the "Neanderthal" population did not die out or go extinct, but rather over time became absorbed into the "Homo Sapiens" expanding population. Hominids having, since there first emergence, living in social groups, and procuring, all that they needed for survival through group activities, suggests that in all times' but especially in difficult times, being part of a group was a personal survival necessity. I also appreciated the discussion concerning the tendency to treat "Neanderthals" as a unity regardless of geographical or temporal location. This reminds me of the way we, in the U.S.A. tend to consider cuisines of other countries as a unity: i.e. You don't really find Mexican food in Mexico, Italian food in Italy, Greek food in Greece, and so on. (Even in this country, Mexican food in California tends to be different than Mexican food in Arizona, which is different than Mexican food in New Mexico, which is also different form Mexican food in Texas. And these differences are dwarfed by the regional differences in cuisine that one would encounter traveling from one region of Mexico to another.We do tend to lump and simplify our perceptions of those that we consider "others" into a false unity. On a slightly different, but related track , prior to the era of radio, movies with audio dialogue, and television, and especially in times when travel was difficult language in isolated areas tended to relatively quickly, evolve in different ways, leading to variant dialects, that could further evolve into differing languages. Yet, In Sci-fi encounters with beings from other worlds, the residents of those worlds are almost always depicted as having a common language! As Spock might say, "highly illogical!" Hmm, this is already the longest comment that I've ever made, but I also want to tell you how much I appreciate your enthusiasm for these subjects, especially as you combine this with the due respect for the evidence. You even make clear distinctions between what is possible, probable or likely, and nearly certain according to the evidence. And you do this in a very entertaining manner. ( This kind of reminds me of another English perhaps better well-known presenter, David something or other. Any ways Bravo and Thank you.
Given the history of comparative biology and psychology it's going to come down to matter of definition and degree. It would see extreme to believe that neanderthals didn't use symbols. It more of a questions of how much. They could have been great stories tellers or maybe very simple stories about how bears behave. And definition of "art" vary so much it's not hard to imagine one of those definitions would apply to whatever it is that neanderthals did.
Great interview, it is interesting to listen to people trying to figure out such very difficult problems.
Getting blazed listening to Stefan chat about Neanderthals with a scientist
Where do you get your contact lenses
Me too!
Ayyy
Very interesting Stefan ,thanks and thanks also for the link below to Bruniquel cave .
Thanks a lot to you both for this interesting video. I have a question: is there any differentiation in the spatial positions of the art left by neanderthal and sapiens within the caves? For example, did the neanderthals tend to leave their representations deeper within the caves than sapiens?
I suspect there are not enough Neander locations to do a statistical comparison... but idk. Any idea how many sites are attributed to them?
What a great coincidence that this should pop up, I just finished her book, Kindred. It’s was an excellent read, very insightful and enjoyable. It’s nice to hear her expound on the subject, thanks for interviewing her.
around 34:20 she mentions "this is a site where they appear to be butchering the dead, which is a whole other topic" -- can we get a part 2 about this? and other mysteries? great guest and conversation! love it
Ancient neolithic people would cut up and eat the dead. Then they would scrape the bones clean and smash them to pieces. Probably as a spiritual ritual for the afterlife.
@@VikingMuayThai Bone marrow is very nutritious. No spiritual speculation required.
Thank you very much. You are the first prehistory-caster I've found and so grateful for the discussion
Stefan, great to have a guy like you presenting this and your other topics. Really helps the lot of us.
Thank you SO MUCH for this amazing discussion!! Stefan, your channel's great - as you continue, please keep us informed about any updates on the many fascinating topics you discuss.
wonderful interview, loved Dr. Sykes book and am really happy to hear her speak on a topic shes so knowledgeable about. Thanks as always Stefan.
What a nice and clever Lady... She seems to have not only a very good understanding of us Neanderthals but also real empathy... I feel well understood... .! ! !
"us" hahahahah
This is one of the most informative talks about Neanderthals I have ever heard. Thanks.
I stopped the 15:56 when she said there was no practical reason to use pigments. There's several. As a hunter and a warrior. We used face paint to camouflage ourselves and die different clothing articles. Perhaps you would color something to make it more visible. There are droves of applications you can use pigments for other than "because they wanted it to look pretty".
@cyclingnerddelux698 omg great response. I learned so much from you, great job!
I'm about 1/2 way through this podcast so forgive me if this is covered later; there was a study published this year I believe, looking at the evidence for or against neanderthals being intelligent. the authors discounted any controversial/anomalous archaeology and came to the conclusion that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting intelligence and quite a bit supporting a spirituality, so self awareness beyond mere survival. They also looked at why there is a bias against neanderthal intelligence and came to some interesting conclusions.
Sarah Carter Can you please tell us what conclusions they came to in regards to bias against Neanderthals?
Sarah Carter There are indications of speech limitation - in humans voice cord section drops lower
Check out The History of Being Human podcast by Noel Armstrong. He does a whole series on this topic about early hominins and canalabalism. Highly recommended!
Do you maybe know who the study was done by or the name of the study? Im curious to read more about it!
Great video. Neanderthal rock formation sounds like a temple. If it was homosapiens be no doubt it would be written up as such by now
I just started reading the novel series "earth's children" by Jean Auel. It is a fictional story about the interactions between neanderthals and cromagnons. Super interesting. Wonder if you have come across this series and if you know of any other similar novels?
I have read it. I liked the Clan of the Cave Bear and Valley of the Horses.
Covena White I just started valley of the horse. I’m really enjoying it 😊
These are great, unique books. A bit long but worth the read!
Hey, try the ''First Americans'' series by William Sarabande. The first book is called ''Beyond the Sea of Ice''. There aren't any Neanderthals in those books, but they're really good. At least good as the Earth's Children.
Rachel Coleman that’s next on my list 😉
Need to go back and listen through a 2nd time. Really enjoyed this. Thanks!
21:00 Pyrite to create sparkly pigments? Damn those Neanderthals were bedazzeling way before it was cool!
😊
!!😀
Those bling crazed kids!
This is excellent, as always! Aboriginal, Native, and First Nations peoples still use mineral pigments for medicine, beauty, expression, sun screen, bug and insect deterrent/repellent, masking their scents, reducing light reflectivity, and camouflage. Of course it's also used in ceremonies and religio-cultural events, and historically it would have also been used for war and for intimidation. Mineral pigments can also be used for preservation, waterproofing and surface treatment for wood and leather for bows and arrows, boats, pottery, weapons and shelters.
I knew I needed to be in the right state of mind with this one. Talking about anything art or symbol without the visual object or application....? The Doctor did a good job of presenting the material in spite of this horrid limitation.
Neanderthals were awesome. According to 23andme I am more Neanderthal than like 99% of all their customers. :)
@Friendly Stranger why not?
The Collier Report By any chance are you Italian or have ancestry around the Tuscany area?
I thought I would have a bunch, but am only 1%. The NatGeo genome 2.0 is a cool project, the results were surprising yet enlightening.
do you have red hair?
N Marbletoe I do actually
Thank you Dr. Rebecca Wragg Sykes for sharing your meticulous views and thoughts. When one starts to speak of utilitarian uses for Earth pigments such as processing animal skins and enhancing the performance of adhesives used in hafting, I think that the amount of abstract thought involved in developing such processes over time is far more complex than sticking your finger in some mud and drawing an image on a cave wall. Still, from the obvious sophistication and facility displayed in much cave art, it would seem that the "artists" had to be practicing elsewhere, but in a medium that was extremely ephemeral; that act of practicing is where the abstract thought would have been occurring and for which there could not possibly be any evidence. The amount of image memory - mind's eye - hand coordination necessary is, I think, staggering. Much of archaeology ends with an effort to nail the night sky to a wooden floor with the only acceptable tool allowed being a cucumber.
fantastic bit with nailing the night sky to a wooden floor :) i was also shocked to learn these complex behaviours with wax and stuff. very cool
WOW dude. I saw a video from the Milo pre-morning coffee and clicked right away. Finished coffee and was like WTF this guy's still talking. I set it aside, did my PT routine, and put it back on for cool down. ...still talking.. I finally checked the length and dude, this is next level stuff! Congratulations. Now I know to check if your stuff needs to get saved for evening viewing. I'm half way through, and will probably finish watching at lunch. There are probably lots of people like me watching in sessions. I'm just saying, take this into consideration when you look at your viewer retention statistics. There are several channels I watch in the evenings with content like this. Nick's geology lectures from Central Washington University, Event Horizon, Issac Arthur, Harvard's CfA Colloquium, and Skydive Phil's physics documentaries are a few of my favorites. This upload lacks the visuals but it more than makes up for it with the interesting content. Personally I would try to do a bit more editing around your interruptions just to try to improve the emotional flow a bit, but I know exactly how much work this is and I don't have the hardware to do this, or fault you for the time management. This is awesome. I hope you have the opportunity and motivation to do more like this.
Thanks for the upload.
-Jake
(Extended lunch...) Definitely do more of these please.
Good stuff!
Have her on again!
I think dr wag is correct. When your new to a new land it pays to blend in. After all the Neanderthals knew how to endure the weather and edibles. Best way to make family and survive. I'm sure there was competition, but I'm sure later.
At about the 40minute mark, discussing the small stone structures laid vertically, then horizontally, the researcher says 'We don't have the language to describe what this is'. But we do! They are inukshuk.
tell us more!
Interesting....looking up the word...thanks :)
these long videos always help me rotate after the night shift while sleeplistening to them in the library
Neanderthals were so similar to us that we could interbreed... so the notion that their brains worked in a fundamentally different way from ours just doesn't make any kind sense.
For sure there is no way certain tribes didn’t have somewhat complex vocal communication
@@tylersilver3957 I think that language probably predates the ability to vocalize, but yes, it's hard to imagine that a species that could successful interbreed with us would have anatomy that didn't allow speech.
@@ariochiv Someone else! I've never met anyone outside of active searches for the language predating aural language hypothesis.
@@Great_Olaf5 Even chimpanzees use crude hand signals and vocalizations. The adaptation of our larynx to allow for speech is a very disadvantageous one (it means that unlike most mammals, we can't breathe and swallow at the same time), so it's very unlikely that this change came by itself without some form of language already existing.
@@ariochiv I'm aware of this. I was just commenting on finding someone else who even knows about the theory, which is rare for me.
This is the kind of quility content i love, great work!
P.S.: This kind of "podcasts" would be awesome to have on Spotify, do you have Spotify with this kind of content/ plans for setting that up?
Also i wonder, u, is any of ur ancestry traceble to former Yugoslavia?
Seeing how much history that region has (Most people only think of the breakup and the horrible wars that followed) it would be cool to dive deeper in that if it's the case!
From the Sićevačka jawbone to the Starčevo culture, from Tiberius II to Tito.
Much love from The Netherlands!!!
Amazing video and exchange at the exact opposition of what YT loves to promote, you know the 10 minutes "entertaining" ones in the best case scenario. Such an ongoing sphere of studies, discoveries and self-questioning but in the long run a lesson on how hard and complex it is to apprehend History and as you can guess Prehistory- Captain Obiious strikes again!-.
Great Chan sir, thank you very much for your work and an almighty thanks to Rebecca!
This video is a jewel in my humble opinion.
I love your videos. I subscribed a week ago and I'm watching all your videos. There are a good amount of UA-camrs that speak about the same topics you do but they are so boring I can not listen to 5 minutes of them but you are one of the good ones. Your information and graphics are very good and you present it in a entertaining way. Just wanted to let you know. I'm glad this one is an hour long.
Neanderthal: Yo Ugg i found a weird rock
Ugg: SWEET now i can finally add a red rock to my weird rock collection
Brilliant interview. Really enjoyed it.
One of the most fascinating talks I have ever heard ! I'd give it a hundred 'likes' if I could !
Breeding between the subspecies may have occurred simply because Neanderthals were cute.
Any one who has ever loved a little Danish/Dam troll doll understands that.
They are adorable, and the spitting image of Neanderthals.
The Kentucky Neanderthals probably would breed with anything!!!
Nice interviewing technique, Stefan. Letting the guest speak with minimum interruption. Good questions, too.
That was fascinating. Never would have thought the boundaries between Sapiens and Neanderthal were so fuzzy and blurred-together over such a wide span of time and in so many facets.
I have a suggestion, I think those longe, "videoless" interviews work better as a podcast. It`s hard for people without youtube premium to watch videos on the background on the go. Anyways, thanks for the awesome job! I really enjoy your work!
I really appreciate when an academic can entertain new or contradictory beliefs openly without cognitive dissonance or gate keeping on others just because of a lack of fancy paper.
You don't stray far from the facts but you do allude to more. You're open to new things.
I'd really like to see you examine with an open mind some "fringe" theories. White sands for instance. Things that challenge the narrative
Seems so hard for everyone to believe they were as complicated as we are
@travisaurand7550 - Even as a kid, I had deep faith that the Neanderthals were still with us and were intelligent, and had speech. It is wonderful that history has finally caught up to them. Thank you, Great-Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandparenrs!
That was amazing! Thank you so much for all the hard work you do ❤️
no stone carvings are found at neanderthal sites but they could have carved wood. they could make items out of wood for a camp and they would never show up in archeological records. aboriginal Australians do that. they made tools and instruments when thet are out in the bush and leave them when they move on rather than carrying those items with. if they were piercing hides to stretch them and make clothing then they had the mind power to make other things from raw hide and leather that would not be found 100,000 years later. stone work took time and it is heavy. wood carves easier and faster. i believe people in the sciences under estimate neanderthal technology. they certainly gathered plants and cooked. they most likely made baskets for a variety of purposes. they would have had a very intimate relationship with plants.
Can we appreciate how excellent the sound quality for this excellent interview is?
Plus, the disembodied skull voicing the conversation in the background is a nice touch
Well, it seems I have something interesting to listen to for my lunch break
Thank you! Excited to see the sites u listed also. Blessings 💗
Thank you so much Milo for this wonderful discussion with DR Sykes.
Fascinating interview. Thank you Stefan!
FASCINATING! Really mindblowing. Thank you so much, so so much for this interview.
What if Neanderthals made arrangements of twigs & feathers or weaving grass into shapes? What if they considered making permanent art that doesn't fade away sacrilegious?
possible. I read somewhere that a native American tribe made sand paintings with that intent. sorry. no link. something I read pre internet.
The Hopi culture conducts religious ceremonies in which shamans make elaborate sand paintings with different colors of sand over the course days and ritualistic chanting, then destroy the paintings as a way of symbolically cleansing the spirit of the subject of the ceremony.
@@fleetskipper1810 Buddhist monks do the same thing in Nepal!
I'm getting serious Deidara vibes from this... "The only true art is temporary, the truest expression of art is therefor explosions."
such a great discussion! I could be mistaken but I thought there was a find of a Neanderthal burial as well which had significant pollen over the body suggesting a laying of flowers over the body before burial. which if true seems to be another strong case for Neanderthal symbolism.
An excellent survey of recent Neanderthal information. Despite Neandertals were first discovered a year after the Origin of Species was published in 1859, we still are learning so much. I still am more of a lumper than a splitter and view Neandertals, as one did in the 1960s and early 70s, as subspecies (Ernst Mayr's definition of species e.g. fertile offspring of sexually reproductive forms) Homo sapiens neandertalis. Splitters type paleobiologist seem to get more recognition unfortunately because publishing a new species causes buzz (e.g. financial reward for someone if not the author themselves).
I'm ready for you to make "Uzbekistan to Wales: a Neanderthal Story"!
I so appreciate you and Dr. Wragg Sykes for this!
Stefan you glorious bastard, I have been binging docos, love your channel and here is an hour long video! So happy.
Thank you Rebecca Wragg Sykes so very much for your marvelous insight and vision. This is an hilarious topic and will most likely always be circular. Before we can discuss whether or not anyone, at any time, creates "art", we must absolutely define exactly and precisely what "art" is. Is it symbolism? Then we must define exactly and precisely the nature of symbolism. Regardless of how either "art" or "symbolism" is defined I think that a fair question would be, do MOST modern humans EVER exercise art or symbolism with their own minds and hands? Is self expression art? Today, song and dance are considered high forms of self expression and "art" that beg no use of tools of any kind and can not possibly ever produce any fossil evidence. Because any being has the potential to do anything does not mean that they could or would do whatever that anything might be. Today, how many homo sapiens practice (especially in what is called the "Western World") dance, song, the playing of any musical instrument, create graphic images of any kind, or create what could be called sculptural three dimensional forms or images? Perhaps it is that Neanderthals decided to not do certain things and not engage in certain practices; they knew they could, but decided not to.
12:17 I guess our ancestors also cared about preventing sunburns and dry skin.😊
Her book comes out tomorrow! I pre-ordered it after watching this video. I'll let ya all know when I get it. Very excited. Amazing interview and my favorite video. Re watching for excitement on her book coming out. Woohoo.
Hi, how was it? Good read?
@@josepestana5265 yes! I highly recommend it. Educational and fun.
Where do you draw the line between:.
*Practical* and *Artistic* and *Spiritual* ??🤔
That was awesome! Though it could have been even more awesome had you brought up imagery if the discussion points :)
Really great stuff guys! Thanks for the quality content.
Hvala što radiš videa o balkanu ❤
50:57 I am fascinated by this , wondering how when these groups met and joined , how they communicated the concepts nescssary to mingle . To me it was art based , maybe using the dirt / sticks/stone/horn/bone to scrarch out pictoral representations of things - pictures being a universal , and thus spoken terms of these things becoming able to be shared ... if that makes sense .
Stefan instead of focus on Neanderthals you could extend this to the cult caves of Europe, there's very clear symbolism in those. The cross symbol actually originates in these stone age caves.
I would like to know more
The origins of religions and symbolism that i know all go back to Africa
@@G_zuz I think most animals are religious, so religion goes back to before we were even human
Lol, so eurostoneys patented perpendicular lines?
not one example pre??
Clay and mud on the skin provides protection from insects, protection from UV, as well as marking tribal identity and role etc. Also, black manganese dioxide is capable of aiding firestarting by lowering ignition point (cayalysis of ignition). Gah - she just now brought this up after I'd already written it down -
Just found this - excellent! What's Dr. Sykes' book called? I'd be up to read that for sure.,
Great work Stefan. Really like you channel.
It interesting how in our western societies we so often pin everything into categories of winners and losers the victors and the vanquished but more often then not it doesn't really work like that and this is the perfect example of how there isn't always a clearly defined winner or loser.
I remember being taught in school that neanderthals could not even predict seasonal changes and that's how they died out. What the FUDGE?!?!?!?!?!
Well it's probably true they couldn't predict the ice age. Your teacher was only off by the difference between a summer and ten thousand years.
The Gibraltar engraved lines could also be from fire hardening wooden spears followed by rubbing to form points.
Really enjoyed this nuanced description of Neanderthal culture from Dr. Wragg Sykes
I wish people would consult with artists more when considering “symbolism” and art in archaeology. “Symbolism” also needs some review and possible dismissal.
So much mystery, just like the future, the past is full of surprises!
Lovely "video", i always love to this kind of things while drawing.
Lindybeige is another great channel for that, unfortunatly he gives visual examples a lot so if you don't *watch* his hour long talks you miss a lot of context... Here i miss nothing visually when i draw!
I’m a new sub glad I came across your channel. 👍
I found a stone on the western coast of Sweden in 1980. It was unlike any stones around it. Questions: Where can I find out more about this stone? I have a good photo of the stone, but do not know how to attach it to this comment. Thank you, I enjoy your podcasts.
Redheads with long noses would need sunscreen in the summer!
I’ll have finish this later but interesting.. I remember a show by the Naked Archeologist of a cave in Northern Israel that showed Neanderthal living there at the same time as homo sapian with possible skeleton of inter breading..? Any thoughts?
Kick butt! Looking forward to digging in!
I knew way back before DNA evidence that I was part neanderthal!! Love your videos!
lovely conversation, thanx
Painting images is always a way of thinking out loud? Learning by Doing until it becomes Intuition is a kind of Lamarkian theory of Actual Intelligence, like the "Job Makes the Manager" is more influential than the Management making real improvement.
Intensely interesting talk. Thank you.
If you ever get her on again, maybe you could get her to comment on symbols vs. animal. Genevieve von Petzinger has a great TED talk on the 32 common symbols in cave paintings which span large areas and long periods of time to be coincidence. Also her book is "The First Signs", published 2017.
Or better yet, try to get Genevieve on!
Thank you!
yeah that was an amazing talk on the 32 symbols
What a wonderful talk and topic. Milo, I wonder if you could comment on those artifacts:
Portable-engravings-on-a-forest-elephant-bone-fragment-from-Bilzingsleben-Germany-c.png
Bovid-bone-fragment-bearing-10-grooves-Kozarnika-Cave-Belogradchik-Vidin-region.png
Thanks!
Alex
How do you determine skin color? Great video - thanks.
Well some Africans sometimes eat reddish powdery rock even today, most probably to counter Iron deficiency in their general diet....
In Australia they eat bits of termite mounds, which have iron in a form that can be easily absorbed.
I think all kids eat dirt and try mud paint and mud moccasins etc. Mud is wonderful.
Can you talk about whether neanderthals had religion?
Bear cult video!
@@coywolfoutdoor540v a r g
The burial of the dead and cave bear skull displays present solid evidence to me along with decorative objects. I dont know what other evidence coulde be found.
You need to have oral tradition for proto religion. For example Australian aboriginals have stories from generations ago that explain what to eat in the case of severe drought that only happens every few generations. Verses, needing a spear tool every generation. You don't have ancestor myths that morph into into deities without multi generational knowledge. Unfortunately i can't even think of a way you could test for this in archeology.
@@thoughtscanbedisease4495 Fascinating.
Ok... there has to be a way to show oral tradition, if it existed!
1. If Neander art is found that depicts long term phenomenon, such as precession of equinoxes, that would show multi-generational transfer of knowledge. (or cross species transfer with sapeins, which would also be a win).
2. If Neander art in distant areas showed the same elements, and these elements do not seem obvious from the environment, that would also argue for oral tradition. (or a very mobile art crew).
I suppose oral tradition also needs a supernatural imagination to become religion. I feel that early humanoids were generally religious, and so my guess is that Neanders had proto religion, and this will be huge when enough Neander art is known, and can be tested by ideas like yours.