3:02 "Do you think we were right?" "Santiago is dead. No, I don't think you were right. And if you take that Code of yours at all seriously, then you don't think you were right, either."
Realizing what you wrote is EXACTLY Dawson's character arc in this movie. He only realizes it after hearing the court's verdict, but at least there is the solace that he at least learn the lesson and will take it to heart.
@@XanderVJ But it wasn’t just Harold Dawson; his buddy, Private First Class Louden Downey, trusted his judgment. When they go for a job, the employer will ask: why the dishonorable discharge? And they will say oh, we killed someone. 😮
Two seconds on demi Moore while she says “No” and her eyes show she is so proud of the soldier and turns to utter confounder, bewilderment and shock at being accused by Tom’s character of something she didn’t do. All in her eyes. All in two seconds or less. Demi Moore is an outstanding actress.
Can't remember who said it but I still love the sentiment: "Demi Moore always looks like she's about to cry - that's her whole thing. She's made a career out of having glaucoma."
@@AlexanderNixonArtHistory the fuck does it being a woman saying that have anything to do with it? Putting women opposite of Cruise has been the formula since forever. This wasn’t about making some classic gender role stereotype. And in general, her point is that he’s really good about technicalities but doesn’t believe in the ability of getting justice from executing it correctly. So, he may as well be a used car salesman, because he doesn’t really believe in the product he sells, he just wants to get it off of the lot.
But if they followed that reasoning and did what Kaffee told them to do here, then they would never have had their day in court and Colonel Jessep would have gotten away with what he did.
They're just actors in an average and overlong movie. I'll at least give credit to the scriptwriters, however, for not attempting to pair them romantically. Oh, wait...were you talking about the Marines? Same difference 😁
@@imcallingjapan2178 They still beat a man to death because of jarhead machismo and active duty mental conditioning. Nothing about ANYTHING that happened in that situation was good. And considering the kind of meat grinder of a routine they put most Marines through, the fact that they are dishonorably discharged is going to royally fuck them over. That means zero VA benefits, period. And I work for the VA claims division, helping veterans file their claims with the federal VA. And man, the amount of injuries Marines pile up in a FRACTION of the service time other branches do? They can EASILY rack up enough disabilities (physical and mental) to hit 100% within just 2-4 years of service. But they won't get shit from the VA with a dishonorable discharge. So they are fucked. Which frankly, I'm fine with, what they did was horrible.
That “Saluting an officer when he leaves the room” comment was solely to set up the payoff at the end where Dawson salutes him. Kaffee wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about that lol.
i reckon he was chasing control at that moment - it also sets up the idea that he and jessup are narratively on the same moral side - they both believe this is a lost cause. kaffee’s arc is that he steps up and takes the villain down, then paying off the salute by properly earning the respect of the marine
I think there are multiple reasons for the scene. Part of the reason is to show that Dawson doesn't strictly stick to codes and regulations. He still operates with some autonomy. He doesn't like Kafee so he chose not to salute him.
A Marine drill instructor march recruits at night into a swamp and six drown. This 5:38 was back in 1956. There have been many orders given in the service where people have suffered or died. This is the same with everything we do in life. There's always a moment in time when we don't think things out and someone pays the price. The people who always suffered the most are our weak and not strong enough to fight back.
The plea IS them accepting responsibility for what they did. His "honor" was him refusing to own up to what he did himself and leaving it to others to decide for him. Accepting the plea would mean he had to admit, to himself more than anyone else, that what they did was wrong no matter what their orders were. This was WELL after the Nuremberg trials and well after the Befehlsnotstand defense was disproven; Not that it ever applied (to my knowledge) to the US Military. So, I was just following orders when I attacked and accidentally murdered my brother in arms, IS involuntary manslaughter AT BEST! The fact that he won't acknowledge that here shows how his character has no honor.
The thing is he was ordered to do it, and taking the plea would imply that it was just something they did for kicks. The way it played out was perfect- they get reminded of how they failed their expectations, but also everyone else who was responsible up the chain got theirs.
Right, and this is intended by the film. It's amazing how many people miss it. The redemption at the end where he acknowledges what he did and accepts his ruling is meaningless without his oblivious refusal to accept a plea in this scene.
*add to this the fact that (revealed later on the movie during court) he was already held back for bringing "a hungry guy some food".... he had definitely NO option here...*
They absolutely should have taken the plea deal! Charged with murder, actually did what was charged (but without intent to kill) and then lied about it (lied about whether their LT gave the order personally to both of them) ...also the victim died ... and you're offered a deal to serve 6 months? Take that deal!!! Plus the hockey season they would have missed was 1992-93 which wasn't that great unless you're a Montreal Canadiens fan, which I'm guessing they aren't.
Except the would have done 2 years. In the USDB there is no parole. If you get 2 years, you do 2 years. Used to be you could get good behavior, but that is 3. something days a month. So at best they would have got about 100 days off their sentances.
@@stephenkennedy8305 Funny this popped up almost immediately. Not to start a debate in the comments but I'm pretty sure there was parole in the US military system back then. I don't know about now. But I'm almost a contemporary of these characters (joined in late 1990s) and based on a guy I knew who was a complete moron and did get courtmartialed and go to prison (RCF not USDB), he definitely got parole. He was out so fast we couldn't believe it.
I did 5 years for something I didn't do, because I refused to say "guilty." There's more to it than just time. I believe I will be judged when I leave this planet, and I want God to see that part. I stood on my principles and took what came. I was expecting a 1 & a 1/3 to 3, & got 4 to 7, said thank you, your honor, did 5 years with my soul and butthole in tact.
His only good performance is in Rain Man. He plays "Tom Cruise" in everything else. He played Tom Cruise in Rain Man too, it just happened that his character in that film WAS Tom Cruise, a smarmy fuckface. I'll give him a shout out for his role as Les Grossman in Tropic Thunder though, one film where he wasn't playing Tom Cruise. Just one man's opinion of course :)
@@Tormented22 Can't argue Tom does have that natural screen presence that lured people in the theaters for decades. Even if he's played "Maverick" 40-some times. 😛
“You’re such a coward.” Ah yes, because wanting to throw your life away fighting a completely lost case where everyone knows you’re guilty, is definitely bravery and not just stupidity.
@jameskirk2032 uh, it’s established in the film and based on real life legal code that both defendants are quite guilty of manslaughter. They physically assaulted a colleague which resulted in him unfortunately passing. Thats quite literally what manslaughter is. He was looking for a trial defense for a case in which he had no merit on his end, and therefore no business contesting, whatsoever. It doesn’t matter if he thinks he’s right, he’s still objectively guilty of following a nefarious order which proceeded to end in the worst way possible. The US military has a doctrine explicitly against following unlawful orders for situations just like this, so that everyone is held accountable and can’t use their command as an excuse. The plea bargain is incredibly generous and more than fair considering this. He and Galloway stubbornly refusing to accept it is nothing more than spiteful ignorance for the sake of the plot. Because a movie has to happen. There’s a word for that, it’s called contrivance. This movie’s plot is absurdly overrated and doesn’t even know how to follow its own fabricated tenants let alone the actual law of the UCMJ.
@jameskirk2032 He was guilty, on one of the counts. He and Downey get dishonorably discharged, and if not for an incredibly astute but longshot strategy of trying to get Jessup to incriminate himself, which worked, they would have been in prison forever.
@@noyou2767 In this case it's misplaced honor, though. They actually did the thing they were accused of, so the sentence they're being offered in this scene is actually very generous, and to reject it on grounds of "honor" makes no sense. (As Downey realizes later, at the end of the movie.) "Honor" doesn't really come into play when the thing you actually did is dishonorable.
he was a coward when he followed that blatantly illegal "Code Red" order... He only fully grasped this when he was sentenced dishonorable discharge without jail time, understanding he could have recieve both
Even though Cruise has demonstrated everything to the contrary up to that point, Moore continues with, "you know how to win" but finishes with "you're nothing". 😂
These two essentially bullied a weaker peer by tying him up and stuffing a rag down his throat. If they believe what they did was right, they really should've gone to prison where other people will be saved from their distorted morality.
@@cw9282 Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Biden? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
@@j_m_b_1914 Caffey is not in uniform. You wouldn't salute him. But you're right. Sailors (and Marines) do not salute indoors as being "uncovered" is not full uniform. I think the Air Force salutes uncovered officers ... or it used to, at any rate. But Justin is right, too. Hands in the pockets is totally unsat.
@@j_m_b_1914 You're not. You're also not obligated to salute an officer who's not in uniform. OP is right, though, hands in the pockets is basically giving an officer the finger
People in the comments section seem to forget major plot points to this movie. First, Dawson WAS a marine who cared about those he served with. The trial proved he sacrificed his rank to bring a fellow soldier food who was being starved for SEVEN days by Kendrick. Second, the hazing practices by the commander was NOT his policy. And he admitted the core used even harsher methods (GI shower brillo pads). So when he was forced to haze, all he did was tie him up, stuff a rag down his throat, and shave his head. That's literally it. The least possible damage you could do. Third, he had NO way of knowing this was being done to a soldier who had a series medical condition. This was entirely the doctor's fault. And last, he's proving here (and proved at the end of the movie) he was willing to accept the consequences of his actions; even if it meant life in prison. Dawson was every much the victim here.
Everything you said is true, but what he did still constitutes battery. And someone died in the course of that battery. It wasn't a monster beating, but tying someone up and shoving a rag down his throat is serious enough. You're jacking up their fight or flight response, including heightened blood pressure and need for additional oxygen, and then cutting off much of their airway.. It wasn't "the least possible damage" he could have done. There are ways that peer discipline can be accomplished without engaging in criminal battery. And this was criminal battery, which is a crime under military law. Even if it had not led to death or permanent impairment.
Great movie, FANTASTIC performances all around. I have one small issue with this clip though. I find it hard to believe Lt Kaffee needed to ask how to get new counsel assigned.
@@james---b The men who played the roles of the accused did a fine job in their respective roles. It's the character actors that makes a good film a great movie.
@@j_m_b_1914 Or in Beverly Hills Cop: "Forget about what you can prove. Talk to me." -Bogomil to Axel Foley. That's when you knew Bogomil was a good cop.
Its a good movie, but its so dumb that they pretend that Guantanamo bay was so dangerous. They're so dramatic about it. They don't have incidents at Guantanamo Bay, Cubans are chill. They torture people there. They talk about honour, but the place is designed to torture people. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#:~:text=The%20three%20alleged%20ongoing%20torture,U.S.%20forces%20at%20Guant%C3%A1namo%20Bay.
"Another lawyer won't be good enough. They need you!" (Five seconds later, after not getting what she wanted:) "You know nothing about the law. You're an ambulance chaser with a rank. You're nothing!" The way Sorkin writes women can be a little much to swallow at times.
I think the real issue with Sorkin is that sometimes his writing turns into speeches towards the audience so we get what this is all about. 'Why are you so afraid to be a lawyer?' might as well be 'Tom Cruise is taking the easy way out and not properly fighting for the rule of law in court he must realise the error of his ways'. Honestly a lawyer who can plea bargain a murder charge to six months without getting to trial is just about the best real world scenario you can expect.
I'm no Marine so take what I say here with a grain of salt and if any Marines want to chime in and tell me I'm wrong I will defer to them and concede the argument. But the fact these guys think they are still Marines and still have Honor after what they did baffles me. I've known people who served as Marines, they would never obey an order to brutilize and torture a comrade for the mere crime of being substandard. They would have known it was wrong, that it was their duty to refuse, and to tell their superior "I'm sorry sir, i can't to that" and if their superior wanted to have them court marshaled for disobeying orders then THAT can be what they stand trial for with a sense of Honor. I don't see a jury finding them guilty for refusing to inflict unnecessary harm against a fellow American who committed no crime, that's USSR shit.
I thought the same thing. Even if they didn’t mean to kill him, they bullied that man on orders that they could have freely ignored. That’s not following a “code”. It’s doing something awful because you’re too much of a coward to say “no sir”.
I wasn't a Marine but I was US Army Combat Arms. I'm going to use the same argument that I made in a university class after I left active duty. I took an International Politics course in my second semester circa 1994. Another student made an argument that the Soviet soldiers that shot people people jumping the Berlin Wall to escape East Germany should be tried for murder. Those 18-20 year old soldiers from a totalitarian regime were following orders. That changes the calculus. It's one thing to hang the officers that gave the orders. It's completely different for those young soldiers. These are young men who've surrendered themselves to an idea that supersedes our civilian morality. BTW...the code red wasn't intended to kill Santiago. It was an accident. So there's that too. Col. Jessup had an additional responsibility to not put troops in that situation in the first place. That's why he is profoundly responsible. It's based on a true story. You can find it in Wikipedia.
I am a former Marine so I can speak on yall's conversation (which i think is a great subject to debate). First of all, I absolutely LOVED this movie. I also read the book and you literally can't put it down. This movie shows the difference between the branches of service. No disrespect to any service member but an Army soldier, Navy sailor or Air Force airmen more than likely would've never followed these orders. BUT most Marines would have. Marine Corps boot camp is not just to train and get in shape and learn how to shoot weapons, it's purpose is to tear you down and build you back up the "Marine Corps Way". That's why Marine Corps boot camp is the only boot camp that there are no off days. Every day in boot camp is a training day. Our boot camp is by far the hardest (mentally & physically) and most grueling training experience in the military (outside of special forces....Seals, Rangers, Force Recon, Green Berets, etc). Marine Corps drill instructors tear you down and beat you down mentally ever hour of every day during 1st phase. You're the lowest piece of sh!t ever put on this earth. By 2nd phase they've weeded out the "weak ones" and that's when they start to build you back up and teaching you how to be a Marine. That's when you start "drinking the kool aid" and striving to be the perfect Marine. By 3rd phase you're locked & cocked and basically ready to follow any order given to you, no matter how hard or difficult it may seem. You also have to take into consideration that these were 18, 19 year old kids that had probably never been in the world before and still lived under mommy and daddy's thumb so they were basically a robot that just followed orders. The honor they had was in carrying out the order. From the outside looking in you will never understand.
@@cwilliams7908 I don't think YOU understand. What was laid out is that to be a member of our armed force worthy of respect, you HAVE TO be able to judge an order as immoral, no matter how you are trained. Otherwise, you disrespect the country you claim to serve. Their age, naivete, inexperience, etc... EXPLAINS but does not EXCUSE their behavior. There is a difference. You can understand why a man killed his wife. That does not excuse the behavior or make it tolerable. These men, and any others that would obey similar orders are not worthy to call themselves Americans. They disgrace themselves and stain our great nation with their weakness. In this country, we stand up to tyranny, not follow it.
Is it not odd that honor has one set of beliefs for enlisted and an entirely different set for their officers. The enlisted accept the consequence of their actions, but the officers put their consequence onto the enlisted......semper fi.
That is exactly what happened in this movie. For all his talk about honor and sacrifice, Jessep dishonored those two young Marines who followed orders (unlawful orders, by the way) and then he sacrificed THEM because they were exependable, but in his mind, he wasn't. He saw himself as indispensable. He was a narcissist. He sacrificed them just like he probably sacrificed Marines on the battlefield to achieve a tactical objective. He was achieving an objective here, too, but it was to intimidate and shut up Santiago. The objective was secured, but it was over the dead bodies of Dawson and Downey. In general, however, while this does happen in real life, commissioned officers in all branches are taught not to issue unlawful orders and not to hold your troops out to dry. (Retired Army officer here. Mustang who came up through the ranks, including being an NCO.)
The U.S. military is reliant on a large supply of poor people to act as fodder while the senior officers send them to their deaths. Then the senior officers get to sit on corporate boards of directors or run for public office. Don't worry. You'll get one of those cool military headstones.
What always made me laugh (metaphorically) about this movie was how all the commanding officers parroted on and on about honor, duty and code and used those words as mere cliches because at the end.of the day both Jessop and Kendrick were perfectly willing to hang Dawson and Downey out to dry and let them take the rap for murder so they (Jessop and Kendrick) could just continue on with their lives as if they were somehow innocent. If Jessop and Kendrick had any honor or sense of code, they would have done the right thing and confessed their crime and saved those 2 kids from a life sentence. But no, they were perfectly happy to let them burn. So much for honor, duty and code. Bunch of hypocrites. And knowong that, Jessop's soliloquy at the end was just a bunch of bullshit.
This scene always pissed me off because he was sneaking buddy food but then did the code red knowing Donnie listened to him ....then calls him a coward but he was to much of a punk to not listen to the bullshit order ....he's the punk he's the coward
@@deeestuary LOL, nope , I agree with Dawson. They acted without honor. You must have forgotten about that part at the end. Thanks for making your mistake obvious.
@@user-otzlixr actually they had honor, but that honor was misused by their superior officers who they had been trained to obey without question. At the time of the code red they truly believed they were acting honorable it was not until they seen a greater part of the military and how others in the military acted did they then truly understand what honor was. It was at that point it dawned on him that he should have protected the private from being hurt instead of hurting him that would have been the honorable thing to do. I also believe if he had a good CO this is how he would have turned out. Units are a direct reflection of their command structure.
@@MisterMediocrity-uu9gx If the officer doesn't care about such things then why should he be so offended that the practice wasn't followed? I mean if you're ready to go to prison to defend and idea what more could his attorney do to him?
I gotta believe that after two years in military prison...they might have rethought taking the six months. And yes, they were guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Following illegal orders is still following illegal orders.
He's saying that the options are two years and he could get the sentence reduced to two years considering mitigating factors and timed served or they risk the rest of their lives in military prison if they are found guilty. It was never a matter of two years or six months.
I understand the dramatic license taken. But in the real world, Dawson would've been a fool to reject this deal... A deal that gets you home in six months is amazing in a case where there's no doubt you were the person who committed the death-causing act. Also, in the real world, Downey would've most probably snitched on Dawson...
The real case that inspired this movie involved 10 marines. The one getting hazed didn't die though. Also 7 out of 10 took the plea bargain got dishonorably discharged. 3 decided to fight it out. Got convicted but the punishment was time served and they resumed their service.
@florinivan6907 For the record, what I meant by "the real world" was a homicide case, with a fact pattern and six-month offer similar to what was in the movie. But yeah, the real case is interesting. I remember reading about it a while back... If I recall correctly, they actually did douse the rag with something, unlike in the movie. I also remember the main guy who took his case to trial got killed after the proceeding. That sounds like good fodder for a sequel!!
They wouldnt have even been discharged in the real world. It was PROVEN that they were following orders of their platoon leader. Now, you can say, "its an illegal order", fine, but they are of such low rank, they didnt know what was a legal vs illegal order. The charges would have been dropped (or they would have won their appeal)
@@Pops-i4o they didn't kill Santiago (not directly anyhow), he died from a unique lung condition. The actions of Downey and Dawson wouldn't have killed a normal person
@Pops-i4o but..... their actions were from a direct order, for example, let's say the Lt ordered them to make Santiago run 3 miles and he had a heart attack (from a heart defect), would they be charged with manslaughter then?
@@chadhero37 Prisons are full of people who are stupid. They weren’t ordered to kill the man in fact the order wasn’t made clear other than to give him a code red. That is ambiguous at best as they would have asked for specific clarification as to what they were supposed to do. This part is the show is stupid. They stuck a rag in his mouth and then what stand there and look at him
Nothing if the used car they are selling is in good shape and they aren't BSing you. The meme is more about the shady ones that sell you lemons (ie used cars that are shitcans and will fall apart on you shortly after leaving the lot).
Nope. He could have questioned him and let the colonel perjure himself. Later if you have evidence to support a perjury charge you have him arrested and he faces his own court martial. Then you look for a retrial of the two marines. He didn't have to make an accusation against the colonel.
a) whether he or she is in uniform or not, you salute a superior officer in the Navy/Marine Corps in certain situations; b) This was not one of those situations. In the Navy/Marine Corps, you don't salute the superior officer when he or she is "leaving the room." Many occasions exist when Army and Air Force folks salute indoors. Not so much in the sea services. When stationed on an Army or Air Force base, sailors and marines follow some of the traditions of the host service.
Galloway is eager to push the case to trial. Problem is, if she's wrong, she goes back to work & they go to prison for maybe the rest of their lives. The rest of the movie is entertaining & well acted fantasy. The prisons are filled with Dawsons & Downeys doing 20+ years because they wouldn't take a deal.
Well this movie focused on those two accused instead of the murder victim so the ending was very unsatisfying I thought they got a dishonourable discharge but they really were guilty of manslaughter with their just following orders defense same thing all the Nazis said at Nuremberg too. It's important their superior that gave the order was also arrested but they were not innocent and Willy was still murdered just because he needed medical leave.
In their defense, they did not know of Santiago's underlying medical condition. They believed in an ideal which held all marines to a high standard. They believed that hazing a substandard marine was an appropriate tool, especially when ordered by a superior. All militaries need disciplined and motivated soldiers to wage war effectively, and this is why the following-orders defense always pops up when accusing soldiers of acts of moral transgression. Should the plane crews that dropped the atomic bombs that incinerated Japanese children have been brought to trial? What about the plane crews that dropped fire bombs on Dresden? What of the illegal invasion of Iraq? Should all the soldiers who took part in that illegal war also be tried? I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm just saying that there is always an inherent conflict between morality and waging war.
American soldiers also took retribution against German soldiers towards the end of the war rather than letting the justice system handle it. Let's not pretend that we don't dismiss illegal actions by U.S. military personnel.
Lawyers need a solid understanding of the law before they start fashioning an argument. While they may need to refine their arguments with case law, that's often the job of law clerks. In the film, Danny, the lawyer, faces a dilemma with his client due to the conflict between principle and practicality. Danny has done his job by securing a relatively good deal: two years in jail in exchange for the client admitting guilt in causing someone's death. A practical person would take the deal. However, the client insists on holding onto his principles, even if it means risking life in prison.
@@alexh1524 Lawyers are paid to FIND THE Precedent set. . FOR THE CASE. The case for LAW in their particular field of practice. They FIND law. Police enforce Law, citizens are oblivious to law, and pop off at the mouth not knowing their basic rights. Q.E.D.: Shut up!! Lawyer up.
You know what's great about this movie? He was right, and she was as usually female dramatically wrong. He still couldn't prove it and she was a pos in the jag offices.
Little do they know Kaffee could've road out his officer's career and get a sweet corporate law job proving or not proving company misdealing practices, he was soo close to mediocrity
It’s supposed to be an exaggerated story. This is about the human condition and trying to navigate right and wrong inside of institutions that dehumanize you.
@@robertmorris8997 I see an important role in having a permanent, professional military force. I don't do that bullshit honour culture. I don't do that Prussian pro military thing in every moment. Let's not revere the military to the point that they impose grammar, punctuation and reverence on the civilian population.
@@robertmorris8997 Civilian. What more do I need to be? I play my role in my society. I'm not army, air force, marine or veterinarian. Anatomy is tricky. You have to understand so many animals.
What about saluting when wearing civil clothes? In the IDF you don't salute an officer when one of you (soldier or officer) is in less than full uniform (during sports training or when you are wearing uniform pants with a T-shirt)
We want the movie version with the CORRECT ending -- Jessup rightly prevailing in court over the three twerp young lawyers, who end the film with themselves being arrested and charged with perjury.
@@skoolbus I'm no lawyer, but "being uppity" with a hostile witness is not a crime at any level. The worst that could happen is Kaffee gets earmarked for being troublesome, and he's clearly already got something of a reputation for that already. Being argumentative is the worst he gets to, and that's hardly something to shy away from when you know your case has truth behind it. The only ones at threat of Perjury are the ones under oath- the witnesses.
These Marines did nothing wrong. Colonel Jessup shouldn't have thrown them under the bus, the base doctor should've faced malpractice for misdiagnosis, and neither the elite nor the public and politicians they puppet should interfere with Marine Corps. affairs BUT...these Marines did nothing wrong. They followed their orders, punished a disloyal and substandard comrade, and stood together. They were honorable, because honor =/= nice or ethical, it transcends our petty good-evil dichotomies; collective punishment, hazing, and bullying are necessary methods and challenges to be used and overcome so the weak and uncommitted are sifted and only the strong remain to fight the battles we civilians cannot.
//...neither the elite nor the public and politicians they puppet should interfere with Marine Corps affairs...// Wrong-o. NO ideology, discipline or group is EVER above the law of the land. Despite whatever procedures are pursued, Code Red or otherwise, NOTHING is above the law...you WILL ultimately be judged by your actions and the potential/real damage that they inflict. Dawson was correct at the end: "We DID do something wrong...we were supposed to fight for people who can't fight for themselves...We were supposed to fight for Willy." The Marines don't get free reign simply because they are an amazing fighting force...
@@carlostejada1479 Don't bother, Carlos; Mr. Miller here is clearly a believer in the gynocentric liberal democratic social order. I bet you he still believes that every vote counts and that the people are in power. That childish naivety is hard to break through; just let him go back to jerking it to his Lady Liberty poster.
@@carlostejada1479 Yes, so far Dump seems to get far better treatment than anyone else committing the same crimes which is blatantly worng...It just doesn't mean that Marines are above the law...
"Do You think we were right ?!"
You can hear the desperation in Hal's voice ....
Amazing acting from all .
3:02 "Do you think we were right?"
"Santiago is dead. No, I don't think you were right. And if you take that Code of yours at all seriously, then you don't think you were right, either."
Realizing what you wrote is EXACTLY Dawson's character arc in this movie. He only realizes it after hearing the court's verdict, but at least there is the solace that he at least learn the lesson and will take it to heart.
@@XanderVJ Well said
@@XanderVJ But it wasn’t just Harold Dawson; his buddy, Private First Class Louden Downey, trusted his judgment. When they go for a job, the employer will ask: why the dishonorable discharge? And they will say oh, we killed someone. 😮
Two seconds on demi Moore while she says “No” and her eyes show she is so proud of the soldier and turns to utter confounder, bewilderment and shock at being accused by Tom’s character of something she didn’t do. All in her eyes. All in two seconds or less. Demi Moore is an outstanding actress.
Confounder?
@markfax
Noun form of “confound” if I am not mistaken.
Brilliant observation. Thank you.
she's hot. i've often dreamed of making pottery with her.
Can't remember who said it but I still love the sentiment: "Demi Moore always looks like she's about to cry - that's her whole thing. She's made a career out of having glaucoma."
"You know nothing about the law, you're a used car salesman" but also you're the only lawyer that can save them
chick manipulation tactic 101
@@AlexanderNixonArtHistory the fuck does it being a woman saying that have anything to do with it?
Putting women opposite of Cruise has been the formula since forever. This wasn’t about making some classic gender role stereotype.
And in general, her point is that he’s really good about technicalities but doesn’t believe in the ability of getting justice from executing it correctly.
So, he may as well be a used car salesman, because he doesn’t really believe in the product he sells, he just wants to get it off of the lot.
@@jrodri14ii she uses shaming tactics.
@@jrodri14ii watch your language.
Both things were true
Amazing when you consider the guy who played Dawson was a location coordinator and not really an actor at the time.
He really wasn't. You're a sad person.
his screen presence is pretty amazing
He also played a villain in the Highlander series. 1 episode but it was mememorable. I believe the episode was called Brother in Arms
@@douglaspeacock9610 Yeah, that was a brilliant episode.
I am a Marine and we debated this before I joined in school. I felt they were right. Been out 20+ years and feel they are morons.
Yep. The court's ruling wasn't shocking.
But if they followed that reasoning and did what Kaffee told them to do here, then they would never have had their day in court and Colonel Jessep would have gotten away with what he did.
They're just actors in an average and overlong movie. I'll at least give credit to the scriptwriters, however, for not attempting to pair them romantically. Oh, wait...were you talking about the Marines? Same difference 😁
@@imcallingjapan2178 They still beat a man to death because of jarhead machismo and active duty mental conditioning. Nothing about ANYTHING that happened in that situation was good.
And considering the kind of meat grinder of a routine they put most Marines through, the fact that they are dishonorably discharged is going to royally fuck them over. That means zero VA benefits, period. And I work for the VA claims division, helping veterans file their claims with the federal VA. And man, the amount of injuries Marines pile up in a FRACTION of the service time other branches do? They can EASILY rack up enough disabilities (physical and mental) to hit 100% within just 2-4 years of service. But they won't get shit from the VA with a dishonorable discharge. So they are fucked. Which frankly, I'm fine with, what they did was horrible.
@@small_ed”average and overlong” okay buddy
That “Saluting an officer when he leaves the room” comment was solely to set up the payoff at the end where Dawson salutes him. Kaffee wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about that lol.
i reckon he was chasing control at that moment - it also sets up the idea that he and jessup are narratively on the same moral side - they both believe this is a lost cause. kaffee’s arc is that he steps up and takes the villain down, then paying off the salute by properly earning the respect of the marine
I think there are multiple reasons for the scene. Part of the reason is to show that Dawson doesn't strictly stick to codes and regulations. He still operates with some autonomy. He doesn't like Kafee so he chose not to salute him.
A Marine drill instructor march recruits at night into a swamp and six drown. This 5:38 was back in 1956. There have been many orders given in the service where people have suffered or died. This is the same with everything we do in life. There's always a moment in time when we don't think things out and someone pays the price. The people who always suffered the most are our weak and not strong enough to fight back.
Ribbon Creek Incident. They still talk about it at Parris Island
The plea IS them accepting responsibility for what they did. His "honor" was him refusing to own up to what he did himself and leaving it to others to decide for him. Accepting the plea would mean he had to admit, to himself more than anyone else, that what they did was wrong no matter what their orders were. This was WELL after the Nuremberg trials and well after the Befehlsnotstand defense was disproven; Not that it ever applied (to my knowledge) to the US Military. So, I was just following orders when I attacked and accidentally murdered my brother in arms, IS involuntary manslaughter AT BEST! The fact that he won't acknowledge that here shows how his character has no honor.
The thing is he was ordered to do it, and taking the plea would imply that it was just something they did for kicks. The way it played out was perfect- they get reminded of how they failed their expectations, but also everyone else who was responsible up the chain got theirs.
Right, and this is intended by the film. It's amazing how many people miss it. The redemption at the end where he acknowledges what he did and accepts his ruling is meaningless without his oblivious refusal to accept a plea in this scene.
@@terracottapie Well said
*add to this the fact that (revealed later on the movie during court) he was already held back for bringing "a hungry guy some food".... he had definitely NO option here...*
His honor.........at the end he says our job is to protdct the weak, we failed. His honor is very intact.
They absolutely should have taken the plea deal! Charged with murder, actually did what was charged (but without intent to kill) and then lied about it (lied about whether their LT gave the order personally to both of them) ...also the victim died ... and you're offered a deal to serve 6 months? Take that deal!!! Plus the hockey season they would have missed was 1992-93 which wasn't that great unless you're a Montreal Canadiens fan, which I'm guessing they aren't.
Objection, your Honour! Leafs did pretty damn good, too!
Except the would have done 2 years. In the USDB there is no parole. If you get 2 years, you do 2 years. Used to be you could get good behavior, but that is 3. something days a month. So at best they would have got about 100 days off their sentances.
@@stephenkennedy8305 Funny this popped up almost immediately. Not to start a debate in the comments but I'm pretty sure there was parole in the US military system back then. I don't know about now. But I'm almost a contemporary of these characters (joined in late 1990s) and based on a guy I knew who was a complete moron and did get courtmartialed and go to prison (RCF not USDB), he definitely got parole. He was out so fast we couldn't believe it.
If they did plead guilty, Jessop would have got away with things and rose to power. He could even have run for President.
I did 5 years for something I didn't do, because I refused to say "guilty." There's more to it than just time. I believe I will be judged when I leave this planet, and I want God to see that part. I stood on my principles and took what came. I was expecting a 1 & a 1/3 to 3, & got 4 to 7, said thank you, your honor, did 5 years with my soul and butthole in tact.
Man...........Tom Cruise was so amazing before he had a cult telling him he's space Jesus or w/e.
His only good performance is in Rain Man. He plays "Tom Cruise" in everything else. He played Tom Cruise in Rain Man too, it just happened that his character in that film WAS Tom Cruise, a smarmy fuckface. I'll give him a shout out for his role as Les Grossman in Tropic Thunder though, one film where he wasn't playing Tom Cruise.
Just one man's opinion of course :)
@@Tormented22 Can't argue Tom does have that natural screen presence that lured people in the theaters for decades.
Even if he's played "Maverick" 40-some times. 😛
"What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room?"
"You're not in uniform, so......."
Same as not saluting when un covered indoors.
So you never served.
@@stephenkennedy8305 You don't salute when not in uniform. However, he was supposed to stand when the officer left the room.
that does not matter
Even a one-star general stands when a two-star enters the room.
“You’re such a coward.”
Ah yes, because wanting to throw your life away fighting a completely lost case where everyone knows you’re guilty, is definitely bravery and not just stupidity.
@jameskirk2032 uh, it’s established in the film and based on real life legal code that both defendants are quite guilty of manslaughter. They physically assaulted a colleague which resulted in him unfortunately passing. Thats quite literally what manslaughter is.
He was looking for a trial defense for a case in which he had no merit on his end, and therefore no business contesting, whatsoever. It doesn’t matter if he thinks he’s right, he’s still objectively guilty of following a nefarious order which proceeded to end in the worst way possible. The US military has a doctrine explicitly against following unlawful orders for situations just like this, so that everyone is held accountable and can’t use their command as an excuse.
The plea bargain is incredibly generous and more than fair considering this. He and Galloway stubbornly refusing to accept it is nothing more than spiteful ignorance for the sake of the plot. Because a movie has to happen. There’s a word for that, it’s called contrivance.
This movie’s plot is absurdly overrated and doesn’t even know how to follow its own fabricated tenants let alone the actual law of the UCMJ.
@jameskirk2032 He was guilty, on one of the counts. He and Downey get dishonorably discharged, and if not for an incredibly astute but longshot strategy of trying to get Jessup to incriminate himself, which worked, they would have been in prison forever.
@@noyou2767 In this case it's misplaced honor, though. They actually did the thing they were accused of, so the sentence they're being offered in this scene is actually very generous, and to reject it on grounds of "honor" makes no sense. (As Downey realizes later, at the end of the movie.)
"Honor" doesn't really come into play when the thing you actually did is dishonorable.
@jadeheart57 Dawson was found guilty.
he was a coward when he followed that blatantly illegal "Code Red" order... He only fully grasped this when he was sentenced dishonorable discharge without jail time, understanding he could have recieve both
Caffee is absolutely right and she is absolutely wrong.
Even though Cruise has demonstrated everything to the contrary up to that point, Moore continues with, "you know how to win" but finishes with "you're nothing". 😂
Both are true. She's saying he has the talent to get these two an acquittal, but he's incapable of it because he's an insecure, short-sighted loser.
@@terracottapie She wants him to take the kind of risk that she's not capable of taking.
These two essentially bullied a weaker peer by tying him up and stuffing a rag down his throat. If they believe what they did was right, they really should've gone to prison where other people will be saved from their distorted morality.
correct. Physically torturing your colleague at work is a no-no last time I went by HR and asked.
@@AlexanderNixonArtHistory It is a different story when you are part of a military unit over in Guantanamo Bay Cuba.
@@agent_mc you are absolutely right; would you want to be in Santiago's shoes?
@@agent_mc You saying that being part of the military justifies your peers tying you up and stuffing a rag down your throat for being weaker?
@@cw9282 Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Biden? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
Dammit, now I have to re-watch this movie.
... almost every time it comes on.
"You know nothing Tom Cruise." - some random red head.
The hands in the pockets as he walks out is the biggest f u he could get.
I thought you weren't supposed to salute indoors?
@@j_m_b_1914 Caffey is not in uniform. You wouldn't salute him. But you're right. Sailors (and Marines) do not salute indoors as being "uncovered" is not full uniform. I think the Air Force salutes uncovered officers ... or it used to, at any rate. But Justin is right, too. Hands in the pockets is totally unsat.
@@j_m_b_1914 You're not. You're also not obligated to salute an officer who's not in uniform. OP is right, though, hands in the pockets is basically giving an officer the finger
So much for his "honor" lol
People in the comments section seem to forget major plot points to this movie. First, Dawson WAS a marine who cared about those he served with. The trial proved he sacrificed his rank to bring a fellow soldier food who was being starved for SEVEN days by Kendrick. Second, the hazing practices by the commander was NOT his policy. And he admitted the core used even harsher methods (GI shower brillo pads). So when he was forced to haze, all he did was tie him up, stuff a rag down his throat, and shave his head. That's literally it. The least possible damage you could do. Third, he had NO way of knowing this was being done to a soldier who had a series medical condition. This was entirely the doctor's fault. And last, he's proving here (and proved at the end of the movie) he was willing to accept the consequences of his actions; even if it meant life in prison. Dawson was every much the victim here.
Everything you said is true, but what he did still constitutes battery. And someone died in the course of that battery. It wasn't a monster beating, but tying someone up and shoving a rag down his throat is serious enough. You're jacking up their fight or flight response, including heightened blood pressure and need for additional oxygen, and then cutting off much of their airway.. It wasn't "the least possible damage" he could have done. There are ways that peer discipline can be accomplished without engaging in criminal battery. And this was criminal battery, which is a crime under military law. Even if it had not led to death or permanent impairment.
Kendrick was the one that loaded the weapon after the Bell incident and the substandard evals.
Great movie, FANTASTIC performances all around. I have one small issue with this clip though. I find it hard to believe Lt Kaffee needed to ask how to get new counsel assigned.
I never thought of that. If he's such a whizbang, he'd know.
Exposition
0:54 and 5:11 no one loses it like Tom Cruise! 😂😂😂
I think I've re-watched the whole movie with these short clips
Short clips uploaded by various channels and out of order 😂
The unsung hero's in the movie. The soldiers, they did a damn fine job with their acting.
what are you saying?
@@james---b
The men who played the roles of the accused did a fine job in their respective roles.
It's the character actors that makes a good film a great movie.
@@therealthreadkilla they all play characters.
Marines
There weren’t any soldiers in this film. They are actors.
Now I want to watch the film. Again.
1:58 when did Casemiro start acting?
Great acting wow 😮
"It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove"
I sure have heard a variation of that in a later movie.
It doesn't matter what you know, it matters what you can prove! - Denzel in Training Day
@@j_m_b_1914 Or in Beverly Hills Cop: "Forget about what you can prove. Talk to me." -Bogomil to Axel Foley. That's when you knew Bogomil was a good cop.
We can prove that 46 is corrupt but the DOJ is as corrupt as he is.
Without justice we are no different than Roland Freisler at the Peoples Court,
Strzok and McCabe: "We have zero evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, but we think we can 'prove' it to a jury anyway."
If only scientologists could see the irony in it coming from Cruise
I think he wore that jacket in "All The Right Moves"
Risky Business
It’s interesting that Galloway is initially very supportive of Kaffee, but almost immediately takes a 180 and slaps his skills in the face.
Arguably the best screenplay ever written
Agreed. It's so effin good! I've seen it at least a dozen times and it never gets old.
Nah some miscalculations such as Downey on the stand
Its a good movie, but its so dumb that they pretend that Guantanamo bay was so dangerous. They're so dramatic about it. They don't have incidents at Guantanamo Bay, Cubans are chill. They torture people there. They talk about honour, but the place is designed to torture people.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#:~:text=The%20three%20alleged%20ongoing%20torture,U.S.%20forces%20at%20Guant%C3%A1namo%20Bay.
It is?
Written by a commie hating military fag
"Another lawyer won't be good enough. They need you!"
(Five seconds later, after not getting what she wanted:)
"You know nothing about the law. You're an ambulance chaser with a rank. You're nothing!"
The way Sorkin writes women can be a little much to swallow at times.
But it is accurate.
@@crb2061 Which one? The two statements are contradictory.
@@ariochiv Yes, exactly, that is how women think.
@@ariochiv But "You're an ambulance chaser with a rank." is still a great line.
I think the real issue with Sorkin is that sometimes his writing turns into speeches towards the audience so we get what this is all about. 'Why are you so afraid to be a lawyer?' might as well be 'Tom Cruise is taking the easy way out and not properly fighting for the rule of law in court he must realise the error of his ways'. Honestly a lawyer who can plea bargain a murder charge to six months without getting to trial is just about the best real world scenario you can expect.
1:44 fenomenal acting. This look: what is he talking about?
I'm no Marine so take what I say here with a grain of salt and if any Marines want to chime in and tell me I'm wrong I will defer to them and concede the argument. But the fact these guys think they are still Marines and still have Honor after what they did baffles me. I've known people who served as Marines, they would never obey an order to brutilize and torture a comrade for the mere crime of being substandard. They would have known it was wrong, that it was their duty to refuse, and to tell their superior "I'm sorry sir, i can't to that" and if their superior wanted to have them court marshaled for disobeying orders then THAT can be what they stand trial for with a sense of Honor. I don't see a jury finding them guilty for refusing to inflict unnecessary harm against a fellow American who committed no crime, that's USSR shit.
I thought the same thing. Even if they didn’t mean to kill him, they bullied that man on orders that they could have freely ignored. That’s not following a “code”. It’s doing something awful because you’re too much of a coward to say “no sir”.
I wasn't a Marine but I was US Army Combat Arms. I'm going to use the same argument that I made in a university class after I left active duty. I took an International Politics course in my second semester circa 1994. Another student made an argument that the Soviet soldiers that shot people people jumping the Berlin Wall to escape East Germany should be tried for murder. Those 18-20 year old soldiers from a totalitarian regime were following orders. That changes the calculus. It's one thing to hang the officers that gave the orders. It's completely different for those young soldiers. These are young men who've surrendered themselves to an idea that supersedes our civilian morality.
BTW...the code red wasn't intended to kill Santiago. It was an accident. So there's that too. Col. Jessup had an additional responsibility to not put troops in that situation in the first place. That's why he is profoundly responsible. It's based on a true story. You can find it in Wikipedia.
I am a former Marine so I can speak on yall's conversation (which i think is a great subject to debate). First of all, I absolutely LOVED this movie. I also read the book and you literally can't put it down.
This movie shows the difference between the branches of service. No disrespect to any service member but an Army soldier, Navy sailor or Air Force airmen more than likely would've never followed these orders. BUT most Marines would have. Marine Corps boot camp is not just to train and get in shape and learn how to shoot weapons, it's purpose is to tear you down and build you back up the "Marine Corps Way". That's why Marine Corps boot camp is the only boot camp that there are no off days. Every day in boot camp is a training day. Our boot camp is by far the hardest (mentally & physically) and most grueling training experience in the military (outside of special forces....Seals, Rangers, Force Recon, Green Berets, etc). Marine Corps drill instructors tear you down and beat you down mentally ever hour of every day during 1st phase. You're the lowest piece of sh!t ever put on this earth. By 2nd phase they've weeded out the "weak ones" and that's when they start to build you back up and teaching you how to be a Marine. That's when you start "drinking the kool aid" and striving to be the perfect Marine. By 3rd phase you're locked & cocked and basically ready to follow any order given to you, no matter how hard or difficult it may seem.
You also have to take into consideration that these were 18, 19 year old kids that had probably never been in the world before and still lived under mommy and daddy's thumb so they were basically a robot that just followed orders. The honor they had was in carrying out the order. From the outside looking in you will never understand.
@@cwilliams7908 Worked great on William Santiago...
@@cwilliams7908 I don't think YOU understand. What was laid out is that to be a member of our armed force worthy of respect, you HAVE TO be able to judge an order as immoral, no matter how you are trained. Otherwise, you disrespect the country you claim to serve. Their age, naivete, inexperience, etc... EXPLAINS but does not EXCUSE their behavior. There is a difference. You can understand why a man killed his wife. That does not excuse the behavior or make it tolerable. These men, and any others that would obey similar orders are not worthy to call themselves Americans. They disgrace themselves and stain our great nation with their weakness. In this country, we stand up to tyranny, not follow it.
my god Demi was stunning
It's called soft focus.
Great scene! 😊
"It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove!"
First he was the lawyer they needed, and then he knows nothing about the law. Which was it? I am very confused by this scene.
Marines are truly brainwashed 😂
Is it not odd that honor has one set of beliefs for enlisted and an entirely different set for their officers. The enlisted accept the consequence of their actions, but the officers put their consequence onto the enlisted......semper fi.
That is exactly what happened in this movie. For all his talk about honor and sacrifice, Jessep dishonored those two young Marines who followed orders (unlawful orders, by the way) and then he sacrificed THEM because they were exependable, but in his mind, he wasn't. He saw himself as indispensable. He was a narcissist. He sacrificed them just like he probably sacrificed Marines on the battlefield to achieve a tactical objective. He was achieving an objective here, too, but it was to intimidate and shut up Santiago. The objective was secured, but it was over the dead bodies of Dawson and Downey.
In general, however, while this does happen in real life, commissioned officers in all branches are taught not to issue unlawful orders and not to hold your troops out to dry. (Retired Army officer here. Mustang who came up through the ranks, including being an NCO.)
The U.S. military is reliant on a large supply of poor people to act as fodder while the senior officers send them to their deaths. Then the senior officers get to sit on corporate boards of directors or run for public office. Don't worry. You'll get one of those cool military headstones.
What Navy is Caffey in where they salute officers who are not in uniform?
FUBAR, NOT MY NAVY
The Hollywood navy.
You're a lawyer. And an Uber driver?
What always made me laugh (metaphorically) about this movie was how all the commanding officers parroted on and on about honor, duty and code and used those words as mere cliches because at the end.of the day both Jessop and Kendrick were perfectly willing to hang Dawson and Downey out to dry and let them take the rap for murder so they (Jessop and Kendrick) could just continue on with their lives as if they were somehow innocent.
If Jessop and Kendrick had any honor or sense of code, they would have done the right thing and confessed their crime and saved those 2 kids from a life sentence.
But no, they were perfectly happy to let them burn. So much for honor, duty and code. Bunch of hypocrites. And knowong that, Jessop's soliloquy at the end was just a bunch of bullshit.
This scene always pissed me off because he was sneaking buddy food but then did the code red knowing Donnie listened to him ....then calls him a coward but he was to much of a punk to not listen to the bullshit order ....he's the punk he's the coward
They had no honor , they were bullies that got caught.
Either you didn’t see the movie or completely failed to understand it.
@@deeestuary LOL, nope , I agree with Dawson. They acted without honor. You must have forgotten about that part at the end.
Thanks for making your mistake obvious.
Jessup (Nicholson) & Kendricks (Sutherland) were the real bullies.
@@user-otzlixr actually they had honor, but that honor was misused by their superior officers who they had been trained to obey without question. At the time of the code red they truly believed they were acting honorable it was not until they seen a greater part of the military and how others in the military acted did they then truly understand what honor was. It was at that point it dawned on him that he should have protected the private from being hurt instead of hurting him that would have been the honorable thing to do. I also believe if he had a good CO this is how he would have turned out. Units are a direct reflection of their command structure.
@@malenurse1999 Nice try, that approach failed in Nuremberg…
You salute the rank not the man
That's actually very true. You may despise and distrust the man, but you salute the rank.
Dick Winters has entered the chat
@@MisterMediocrity-uu9gx If the officer doesn't care about such things then why should he be so offended that the practice wasn't followed? I mean if you're ready to go to prison to defend and idea what more could his attorney do to him?
Marines don’t salute indoors or when not wearing a uniform that does not include a cover.
I gotta believe that after two years in military prison...they might have rethought taking the six months. And yes, they were guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Following illegal orders is still following illegal orders.
He's saying that the options are two years and he could get the sentence reduced to two years considering mitigating factors and timed served or they risk the rest of their lives in military prison if they are found guilty. It was never a matter of two years or six months.
I understand the dramatic license taken. But in the real world, Dawson would've been a fool to reject this deal... A deal that gets you home in six months is amazing in a case where there's no doubt you were the person who committed the death-causing act.
Also, in the real world, Downey would've most probably snitched on Dawson...
The real case that inspired this movie involved 10 marines. The one getting hazed didn't die though. Also 7 out of 10 took the plea bargain got dishonorably discharged. 3 decided to fight it out. Got convicted but the punishment was time served and they resumed their service.
@florinivan6907 For the record, what I meant by "the real world" was a homicide case, with a fact pattern and six-month offer similar to what was in the movie.
But yeah, the real case is interesting. I remember reading about it a while back...
If I recall correctly, they actually did douse the rag with something, unlike in the movie. I also remember the main guy who took his case to trial got killed after the proceeding. That sounds like good fodder for a sequel!!
In this movie, Demi Moore plays the lone arbiter of who Lt. Kaffee's character is, but she is wrong at every turn. 😮
These men should not be dishonorable discharged. Fight for Notre dame fight for notredame fight for a free santiago
jesus
They wouldnt have even been discharged in the real world. It was PROVEN that they were following orders of their platoon leader. Now, you can say, "its an illegal order", fine, but they are of such low rank, they didnt know what was a legal vs illegal order. The charges would have been dropped (or they would have won their appeal)
They weren’t ordered to kill the man they would have been charged with manslaughter at the very least.
@@Pops-i4o they didn't kill Santiago (not directly anyhow), he died from a unique lung condition. The actions of Downey and Dawson wouldn't have killed a normal person
@@chadhero37 It doesn’t matter he died because of their actions
@Pops-i4o but..... their actions were from a direct order, for example, let's say the Lt ordered them to make Santiago run 3 miles and he had a heart attack (from a heart defect), would they be charged with manslaughter then?
@@chadhero37 Prisons are full of people who are stupid. They weren’t ordered to kill the man in fact the order wasn’t made clear other than to give him a code red. That is ambiguous at best as they would have asked for specific clarification as to what they were supposed to do. This part is the show is stupid. They stuck a rag in his mouth and then what stand there and look at him
Joe was just mad caffey wasn’t hitting that.
👮🏿♀️. One call. 🤹🏿🏩
Denver does law too
What's wrong with used car salesmen?
recycling a perfectly good vehicle to someone who cant afford a new one but needs a car. I don't see anything wrong with that
Parasites
Nothing if the used car they are selling is in good shape and they aren't BSing you. The meme is more about the shady ones that sell you lemons (ie used cars that are shitcans and will fall apart on you shortly after leaving the lot).
It's like marrying a single mom. DON"T DO IT
@@135incorporated9 Don't be a cunt.
AS MUCH AS I DO NOT LIKE HIM AS A HUMAN BEING, HE IS A HELL OF A GREAT ACTOR!!! I SAID WHAT I SAID!!!
They all did railroad Daniel into that courtroom, and if he had failed with Jessup, he would have been in prison.
Nope. He could have questioned him and let the colonel perjure himself. Later if you have evidence to support a perjury charge you have him arrested and he faces his own court martial. Then you look for a retrial of the two marines. He didn't have to make an accusation against the colonel.
You're nothing - live with that - Demi Moore laid Cruise bare with that one
so did Lawson and Downey follow orders to beat up to an inch of his (santiago) life ? Would soldiers do that to a fellow soldier?
Ever hear of a blanket party?
Why did Caffee expect them to salute him when he was out of uniform.
It's a dick measuring contest so all rules are out the window.
a) whether he or she is in uniform or not, you salute a superior officer in the Navy/Marine Corps in certain situations; b) This was not one of those situations. In the Navy/Marine Corps, you don't salute the superior officer when he or she is "leaving the room." Many occasions exist when Army and Air Force folks salute indoors. Not so much in the sea services. When stationed on an Army or Air Force base, sailors and marines follow some of the traditions of the host service.
@@mwduck Yes, Marines don't salute indoors unless "under arms" (Duty belt and cover on). That's the way we did it at least.
@@mwduck And I don't capitalize general references to navy, army, marines or fast food workers.
@@seanwebb605 A stylistic prerogative, to be sure.
It was no defence at Nuremberg, none here.
Galloway is eager to push the case to trial. Problem is, if she's wrong, she goes back to work & they go to prison for maybe the rest of their lives. The rest of the movie is entertaining & well acted fantasy. The prisons are filled with Dawsons & Downeys doing 20+ years because they wouldn't take a deal.
In the end he proves correct.
She was mean to him at the end there. Wow.
Born again I guess now a fin Niagara. Man
Ethos principles code above all ethics and reason
Parts and religions unknown ur probably b right
Demi Moore ❤
Major respect for Dawson!
Well this movie focused on those two accused instead of the murder victim so the ending was very unsatisfying I thought they got a dishonourable discharge but they really were guilty of manslaughter with their just following orders defense same thing all the Nazis said at Nuremberg too. It's important their superior that gave the order was also arrested but they were not innocent and Willy was still murdered just because he needed medical leave.
In their defense, they did not know of Santiago's underlying medical condition. They believed in an ideal which held all marines to a high standard. They believed that hazing a substandard marine was an appropriate tool, especially when ordered by a superior.
All militaries need disciplined and motivated soldiers to wage war effectively, and this is why the following-orders defense always pops up when accusing soldiers of acts of moral transgression. Should the plane crews that dropped the atomic bombs that incinerated Japanese children have been brought to trial? What about the plane crews that dropped fire bombs on Dresden? What of the illegal invasion of Iraq? Should all the soldiers who took part in that illegal war also be tried?
I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm just saying that there is always an inherent conflict between morality and waging war.
American soldiers also took retribution against German soldiers towards the end of the war rather than letting the justice system handle it. Let's not pretend that we don't dismiss illegal actions by U.S. military personnel.
I will not dishonor my self, the corps, or my honor. FJB and cackala.
Getting dishonorably discharged would lead to a lot of trouble.
Every employer l ever applied to
Wanted to know about my DD214
Who do you know wants to buy a Volkswagen??
I mean.. they did kill a guy for no reason. Frankly, they should be in prison
I agree with Dawson some things are bigger
Taking the fall for a superior officer who cut you loose?
Ie the code is trained into u
Lawyers dont " KNOW THE LAW " They get paid to FIND THE LAW. And Mr. Cruise character isnt doing his job.
Who the fudge are you? Some kind of Lawyer yourself?
@@LordEmperorHyperion YES. Why? Do you need one??
@@paulhowson8744Lol. Subtle, but effective reply.
Lawyers need a solid understanding of the law before they start fashioning an argument. While they may need to refine their arguments with case law, that's often the job of law clerks.
In the film, Danny, the lawyer, faces a dilemma with his client due to the conflict between principle and practicality. Danny has done his job by securing a relatively good deal: two years in jail in exchange for the client admitting guilt in causing someone's death. A practical person would take the deal. However, the client insists on holding onto his principles, even if it means risking life in prison.
@@alexh1524 Lawyers are paid to FIND THE Precedent set. . FOR THE CASE. The case for LAW in their particular field of practice. They FIND law. Police enforce Law, citizens are oblivious to law, and pop off at the mouth not knowing their basic rights. Q.E.D.: Shut up!! Lawyer up.
You know what's great about this movie? He was right, and she was as usually female dramatically wrong. He still couldn't prove it and she was a pos in the jag offices.
Little do they know Kaffee could've road out his officer's career and get a sweet corporate law job proving or not proving company misdealing practices, he was soo close to mediocrity
If only they hired a real actress.
Unguided
Trans admiral
🇷🇺😙
NoHarm rules LAW of EU
tom cruise, easily, most annoying voice and actor all-time
This is a cartoon
It’s supposed to be an exaggerated story. This is about the human condition and trying to navigate right and wrong inside of institutions that dehumanize you.
I call B.S. once again. Navy and Marines do not salute indoors unless under arms. Pretty easy to never get that wrong.
I would have just written navy and marines. No need to capitalize.
@@robertmorris8997 I see an important role in having a permanent, professional military force. I don't do that bullshit honour culture. I don't do that Prussian pro military thing in every moment. Let's not revere the military to the point that they impose grammar, punctuation and reverence on the civilian population.
@seanwebb605 So are you Army Veteran, Air Force Veteran, civilian or military hater?
@@robertmorris8997 Civilian. What more do I need to be? I play my role in my society. I'm not army, air force, marine or veterinarian. Anatomy is tricky. You have to understand so many animals.
What about saluting when wearing civil clothes? In the IDF you don't salute an officer when one of you (soldier or officer) is in less than full uniform (during sports training or when you are wearing uniform pants with a T-shirt)
We want the movie version with the CORRECT ending -- Jessup rightly prevailing in court over the three twerp young lawyers, who end the film with themselves being arrested and charged with perjury.
Can you explain?
Except what Jessup did was wrong, and "accusing a senior officer" has no charge in the real world.
Go away, son.
Do you know what perjury is?
@@skoolbus I'm no lawyer, but "being uppity" with a hostile witness is not a crime at any level. The worst that could happen is Kaffee gets earmarked for being troublesome, and he's clearly already got something of a reputation for that already. Being argumentative is the worst he gets to, and that's hardly something to shy away from when you know your case has truth behind it.
The only ones at threat of Perjury are the ones under oath- the witnesses.
These Marines did nothing wrong. Colonel Jessup shouldn't have thrown them under the bus, the base doctor should've faced malpractice for misdiagnosis, and neither the elite nor the public and politicians they puppet should interfere with Marine Corps. affairs BUT...these Marines did nothing wrong. They followed their orders, punished a disloyal and substandard comrade, and stood together. They were honorable, because honor =/= nice or ethical, it transcends our petty good-evil dichotomies; collective punishment, hazing, and bullying are necessary methods and challenges to be used and overcome so the weak and uncommitted are sifted and only the strong remain to fight the battles we civilians cannot.
//...neither the elite nor the public and politicians they puppet should interfere with Marine Corps affairs...//
Wrong-o.
NO ideology, discipline or group is EVER above the law of the land.
Despite whatever procedures are pursued, Code Red or otherwise, NOTHING is above the law...you WILL ultimately be judged by your actions and the potential/real damage that they inflict.
Dawson was correct at the end: "We DID do something wrong...we were supposed to fight for people who can't fight for themselves...We were supposed to fight for Willy."
The Marines don't get free reign simply because they are an amazing fighting force...
@@toAdmiller
Cry me a river, legalist.
@@toAdmillerpoliticians and Billionaires are above the law in this world...
wake up from your Fisher-price world
@@carlostejada1479
Don't bother, Carlos; Mr. Miller here is clearly a believer in the gynocentric liberal democratic social order. I bet you he still believes that every vote counts and that the people are in power. That childish naivety is hard to break through; just let him go back to jerking it to his Lady Liberty poster.
@@carlostejada1479 Yes, so far Dump seems to get far better treatment than anyone else committing the same crimes which is blatantly worng...It just doesn't mean that Marines are above the law...