Are Projectiles Cheap In Fighting Games?
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- A GOOD COUPLE OF QUESTIONS I FELT DESERVED THEIR OWN VIDEO!
Why do Projectiles make Fighting Games cool? And why do we like cheap stuff? Find out here!
== TIME STAMPS ==
0:00:00 Projectiles Are Amazing
0:05:45 People Want Cheap Characters
Find the UA-cam version of this episode here:
• Are Projectiles Cheap ...
Get the audio version of this episode here:
/ projectilesandcheapstuff
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Goddamn James, hearing this from you just boosted my respect and appreciation for you x10,000. I hate how modern fighting game design doesn't appreciate the necessity for cheap/dirty design. Like people forgot, the original strategy in SFII was spamming Hadouken and Sonic Boom.
Spamming projectiles is not fun or exciting
@@666slateran666 for you
@@666slateran666 Not for you maybe.
Was pumped hearing you on TNS UMVC3, but sad you didn't get to witness a live Tony Kila performance
I wanted to share that Ryu/Guile is also one of my all-time favorite fighting game matchups!
Hearing James talk about how cheap characters can make fighting games more interesting makes me think about boxing games or MMA games. They are definitely not “balanced” considering the real world fighters are all different people and they definitely have different strengths and weaknesses as well as there being some who are clearly better than others and probably 1-3 who are obviously “top tier” and above everybody else.
I would say people definitely hate zoners more than grapplers. Even from a spectator's point of view, you can get the David VS Goliath battle with a grapple character.
But with zoners, people would just think that you're being cheap, which can seem uninteresting to those without knowing the nuances.
Projectiles definitely make a fighting game a million times more interesting if implemented well! I feel SF4 got it perfect.
Damn straight James, buff Ryus fireball Capcom.
The parry system definitely negates projectile spam in 6. That and people just drive rush into your face all day endlessly
We are the projectile
I thin games where projectiles are really over centralising can feel kinda boring, I feel that there's a market for games like that but that's not really what I want out of traditional fighters, but I do like projectiles in games where they do genuinely feel like rounded parts of character's kits. I love the gbvsr fireballs for isntance a lot of characters have unique twists tied to theirs that lets them all feel distinct and have unique purposes and response, but the gmae also has a lot of answers to projectiles such that you have to engage with a much wider array of systems than like, I throw booms from 2/3 and jamie starts crying.
SONIC PUM PUM!
I can't play with character without a fireball
Fireball makes me comfortable
Bruh that thumbnail XD
You barely dodged that sonic boom, and it cut off your hair !
Going to say something controversial...projectile-less character matches in SF are the best. Projectiles are the standard in SF games, hence the apathy. Thankfully there are other games!
Been playing SF since 93, i had to switch and play Power Quest (ironically made by Capcom in JP) because of the projectile apathy in SF. If you tire of games like SF and projectiles, try another fighter. Create a community, there are so many more games our here (and this is coming from a Capcom lifer!)
I love projectiles
Dnf duel characters are absolutely broken and i think its one of the most lame boring anime fighters in a minute. As a DFO head they dropped the ball so hard. Watching 2 touch of death games are never exciting to me.
Pfff, cute thumbnail.
i have nothing against projectiles except for Sonic Boom, Guile is my banned character always in SF6
Learn counterplay
Buff Aki, nerf Cammy like in SFV
As we used to say back in the day, SF3 series could be played in a phonebooth. And no, _not_ everyone loves Third Strike. And _absolutely_ not everyone likes fighting Yun/Chun in 3S. Let's not re-write history here. True, Ibuki/Akuma in 2I was worse, but those two characters can die in a fire (but you can't remove them, since that would just make Ken/Makoto the new top tier).
Gotta disagree with James about projectile in SF6, though. THey're generally _good_ , and Ryu's own IS a threat. Play GIef and have Ryu toss 189061981298 FBs at mid-range, backing off appropriately to re-establish space. This is the one tactic I've yet to figure a way around. They recover too fast. Parrying gains no ground. PP at close range _might_ be fast enough if you dash and hit him, but I when I try that I run into EX FB right after and get clipped. In fact, EX Fireball stops all ground offense - Gief DI doesn't go far enough to hit him, charged HP only has one hit-armour and thus loses, s.MP will get beat outright and also loses (land doesn't do enough damage on trade with regular FB to dissuade Ryu from spamming them). Lariat is too slow and doesn't hit Ryu at the range he's stoning you anyway.
So yeah. Ryu could still use a few buff but buffing his projectile is NOT one of them. Let him keep his projectile while has Deijin Charge, but his projectiles are a menace enough as is if you aren't a top tier character.
I think projectiles overall in SF6 are in a good spot. I just wish I could block them at close range like I could in _any other fighter_. Does SF6 have delay blocking a la SFA2?
Concerning cheap characters in fighters.. Eh. There are levels of cheap, and everyone's threshold is different. What you really want to acknowledge is that balance is overrated. I've been saying this since the 90s. *Variety* is what you want. Variety > Balance. Unless if you make clones of characters a la SF1 Ryu/Ken, tiers will always exist. You will always find some characters who are stronger than others. As long as decent number of different characters are on top, and the gap between top and bottom isn't too low/the bottom characters can compete, that's as good as you're going to have it.
Again, I think SF6 is in a really good spot here. Not that I don't think low tiers don't need buffs (buff GIef!) or that the top tiers don't need to be reined in a tad, but they're already have a very, very good base to start with. Nothing egregious outside of Luke (and a lesser extent Ken) being a little too good for their archetype.
BTW, "everyone being cheap" isn't necessarily a good thing. _Samurai Shodown 3_ is an example wherever everyone is goddamn cheap but the game isn't good.
Honestly, that’s largely a Gief problem more than Ryu’s Fireball being “good”. Haha. Gief just needs buffs badly. I hate that Lariat has no effectiveness against Projectiles like it used to. I keep saying that as soon as a Projectile passes through him, it should just trigger him to almost instantly recover so he can use Lariat to get passed projectiles like he always could in the past. And since you aren’t parrying it and removing it from the play field, the enemy can’t just throw another Projectile until the first one leaves the screen. So it’s more effective than just Drive Parrying the fireball. Probably will never happen, but that’s my idea.
@@UltraChenTV I admit that I might be biased because of Gief, but I still don't think Ryu's projectiles are at all bad in SF6. It's not SF3 Ryu we're talking about here.
As for Sf6 Gief, I was thinking he needs something like his Sobat (F+HK) to have projectile invulnerability. Lariat having much faster start up time and recovery (and ability to hit behind like in every other SF game ever, thanks!) would be nice too, but I'm not convinced it would be enough to deal with the type of Ryu Hadouken spam I've encountered.
Yeah. Like I said, if Gief could pass through fireballs safely from ranges anywhere closer than A FULL SCREEN AWAY, he’d be able to manage that fight more. I don’t know why Lariat is sooooooo last and recovers so slowly in this game. Even if it couldn’t sway Ryu in the face, that it basically has zero functionality in avoiding projectiles anymore is so depressing.
Ryu’s Projectiles aren’t horrible in SF6, but they certainly aren’t as good as Guile, Luke, Dee Jay, and even accidentally Ken’s (since the lack of Knockdown on Ken’s OD Fireball actually allows him some BIG punishes vs. other Fireballs). Heck, Juri and Chun being able to Fireball -> Drive Rush more threateningly than Ryu can doesn’t help Ryu’s case either. They aren’t awful, but I do think Ryu’s fireballs could still stand to be better.
As I said: don't nerf Blanka. Buff Kimberly.
Blanka just needs a minor nerf, and I think Kim just needs like 1 more spray can or round refills
I don't play or watch the game but I thought everyone hated Luke?
Personally I'm a fancy-suit-cane-zoner guy hater.
@@Maelthorn1337people hate the top 6 or so characters in general. The meta is dookie
@@666slateran666 That tracks pretty well with any competitive game I've ever played. :p
@@Maelthorn1337 not every top tier in other games is braindead drive rushdown. All the interesting characters are terrible to average in 6. People who say it's balanced are coping or downplaying
Instant like for projectile propaganda.
I want to go back to the point of Super Turbo and change how things progressed (since it is STILL one of the two main models). TLDR: Fireballs were made weaker, pushback for blocking was made weaker, and everyone who doesn't have a fireball was given a move they can use that allows them to IGNORE the fireball and just go in anyway. I hate that. The original reason for a fireball was to have "meaningful combat across the screen," so the real question is, did we ever achieve that?
Now, from Vampire Savior (the second model still used) which leads to MvC2 at that point we can say YES, there is meaningful combat across the entire screen, but because of the mobility that made this possible fireballs were less powerful by default. I would argue the Street Fighter model NEVER did so for two reasons: 1) fireball vs fireball characters tend to just cancel each other out, 2) non fireball players either don't have the tools they need to have to deal with them, or they are given tools that just allow them to ignore the fireball.
To solve the first problem, each of your fireballs is assigned a color based on strength of the button (Light: Green, Medium: Yellow, Heavy: Red) and now have a rock/paper/scissors relationship with each other. Two of the same kind will cancel each other out. A few archtypes would not function this way and would cancel each other out like normal. First, the Dhalsim like zoner to force the shotos to have to move in to deal damage; if anyone should feel spammy it should be the zoner. Second, any charge fireballs that cannot be spammed would be exempt from this and function like you'd expect (you keep the beauty of the Ryu vs Guile matchup).
As for the second major problem, the non fireball players just need more approach options and you are looking for rock/paper/scissors relationships again. Blocking in the air and more air grabs is a simple addition you see in a lot of games. So instead of DP beating everything you could block and bait it out to punish, but if they are blocking in the air they are open to an air throw. We see many of the faster or rush down characters have a way to go either over or under a fireball, and depending on spacing and timing the person who threw the fireball can punish the attempt... if you couldn't you didn't have enough time and shouldn't have thrown the fireball.
We could also go further and allow some risk vs reward to deal with the strong pushback from blocking. As an example, you could take the "just" or "instant" block mechanics you see in some games which would allow you to lose less ground and recover faster (and probably generate meter). Starting with Vampire Savior we see some characters who can use a move to absorb projectiles; as long as this mechanic is dynamic (for instance if you can be punished with a jump in just like throwing a fireball can based on the spacing and timing) then you can have multiple options that would create counters. If they try the jump in, you could just neutral jump and hit them with an air to air; if they jump forward and block to counter you can air throw. Another option is to require them to do a special move with the right button to counter the color just like the fireball characters have to do.
We KNOW projectile characters feel great with the ST model, we just have to take a different approach to giving tools to the characters that have to get in that ADD options which require you to respond correctly to your opponent instead of reducing them by being able to ignore your opponent. Neutral skips are fun but it isn't much interaction and lacks depth. I want beautifully balanced core mechanics and the cheap stuff thrown on top.
Are you making a fighting game soon?
@@guitaroach , I wish I could but I struggle with the programing part (I've done things like music and art). The thing that makes this sort of game a bit more challenging is it is multiplayer AND online AND has to have rollback netcode. That's orders of magnitude beyond what I can do with a rom hack or in Unity.
So I'd have to have a programmer but would have no budget to pay one. XD
I have ideas for days though...
What do you mean by Super Turbo and Vampire Saviour are the "two main models" still used?
@@ShinUltima , if you exclude things like platform fighters and 3D fighting games, almost every fighting game ever made is a variation on what they did in Street Fighter 2, or you have variations on Vampire Savior which are the anime fighting games (things like air dashes, you can tend to block in the air, they tend to have more mobility options which are part of neutral, etc).
Kind of like how every platform fighter is a variation on what Smash Bros has done... there are some slight changes to the formula, but nothing so fundamentally different that it becomes its own sub genre like how Smash created platform fighters.
@@naejimba @naejimba I mean, if you're going to be that reductive, you might as well just boil everything down to SF2, since Vampire is just an amped up SF2 at its core.
Note that _Vampire Saviour_ (Dark Stalkers 3) is the 3rd game in that series. Vampire (Dark Stalkers 1) is the first. Vampire was decidedly much closer to SF2 than VS.
But moreover, I would say the really crazy anime fighting stuff came from _X-Men: Children of the Atom_, which came out after Vamipre but before Vampire Hunter (Dark Stalkers 2) and long before Vampire Saviour. Vampire was Capcom experimenting with the SF2 formula while still being fairly restrained, while XCOTA and subsequent Marvel games was them pushing that engine to the limit. I think attributing "anime fighter" to Marvel is more appropriate than attributing it to Vampire series, even if you want to claim that Vampire started the trend, COTA was where it really took off. Much in the same way that we say modern fighting games started with SF2 despite SF2 being itself being a really _really_ polished version of SF1.
Finally, I'm not certain what you're asking for. Marvel vs. games already have meaningful combat is all areas of the screen. And if you want a modern game series where projectiles are incredibly strong while also having strong tools to deal with them, look no further than Guilty Gear series (itself considered the prototype "anime fighter", but really, GG is just an alternate take on COTA).