As an English native speaker who reached HSK5 years ago my advice for learning Chinese is: 1. Do a course and get the basics of pronunciation right and do not forget tones. Many Chinese native speakers pay more attention to the tone than the basic sound - tones are important. 2. The beginning stages are building the foundations. This happens by yourself at home or in the classroom and involves learning grammar and vocab. 3. Learn to read and write characters. Most words are made up of two or three characters and if you know the characters, once you reach an intermediate stage they will help you guess words. For example: a thermal flask in Chinese is 保温瓶 - the three characters literally mean protect, warm, bottle. If you know the characters it is easy to remember, and the more characters you know the faster you learn them because they are made up of repeating parts that give clues to both pronunciation and meaning. 4. Be patient learning Chinese and the characters is a very slow process, but the more you know, the faster it becomes. 5. It will be a long time before you can use the language - you will need the foundation first. Even then you won't be used to speaking and listening and will have trouble. It's another slow burn. Persist! 6. Read. That develops your understanding of usage of words. This is how native speakers develop their language. 7. Celebrate your wins. Learning Chinese is a long slow process (it takes 3 years full-time to be able to even start to really use the language) and you need to persist and encourage yourself. Look for milestones and things that you can do now but couldn't do before. 8. Don't focus on what you can't do. Put your head down and keep going. 9. The rewards of learning Chinese are enormous. People will admire you and respect you for it.
I wish more people looked at this with the same mentality. You hear often that children are better at learning because of how they absorb information, but I think that the fact that we can focus and actively practice is the whole reason why human knowledge doesnt provide diminishing returns as an adult.
@@RitaChinese Maybe you could create a course called 躺平学中文. 😉🤭 Just kidding, I think your pronunciation course is great, in particular the bootcamp, which unfortunately is about to finish. I enjoyed it a lot and appreciate all the effort and clear, superb feedback you and the other two teachers provided to us on a daily basis. In this way, allowing us to produce more - dare I say it 🤭 - comprehensible output. 😉🙏🏼 辛苦了！祝好，裴朗
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o of tones due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out. If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones). I know it works because I DID IT. Time and time again; And I WILL do it once again with Mandarin. Mandarin IS NOT so hard compared to other languages. And ALL polyglots out there will tell you THE SAME. And you ONLY see monolingual or bilingual people saying it doesn't work. That's the true.
it has been 3 months for me in china, i started learning chinese about two months ago, I've already finished Hsk1 and now am in mid Hsk2, your videos has been great help so far, thanks for the uploads.
If you’ve watched comprehensible input (CI) for 20 years and still can’t understand basic conversations, then you weren’t truly engaging with CI. It’s that simple. CI stands for comprehensible input-if you cannot comprehend it, then by definition, it’s not comprehensible. I also agree that speaking is a separate skill that needs to be developed. It’s easier to speak when you already have a working knowledge of the language, but it still requires practice. Linguists have discovered that speaking alone doesn’t inherently make you better at the language; it makes you better at speaking. However, it doesn’t offer much help in reading or understanding. CI is the best way to learn, but if you’re not doing anything else, it will take much longer to learn. Ideally, you want to form an explicit knowledge of the language and then internalize it with CI. Think of CI as a way to reinforce what you’ve learned and build more stable pathways in your brain. As Matt vs Japan once said, using Anki to explicitly learn is like planting a seed, and CI is like watering that seed-you need both to grow a plant. This is especially true for languages like Chinese, where certain aspects, such as tones, can be challenging for your brain to comprehend initially. If you don’t give your brain something to focus on, it will never learn about it. You need to learn explicitly first, then immerse yourself in the language. Most importantly, pick an aspect to focus on-try listening for the words you’ve learned or paying attention to the tones you hear, for example. By doing this, your immersion will become much more effective. At the end of the day, linguistics is still a relatively new field, and we don’t have all the answers. If you find a method that works for you, stick with it. The most efficient way to learn a language isn’t always the best for everyone. The best method is the one you enjoy and can maintain. Remember, learning a language is a journey, not a race. Don’t get bogged down by a boring method-do what you like, spend as much time as you can with the language, and you will improve.
100% agree. As someone that as watched 1000s of hours of Chinese content, I still don't understand anything. Some argue it's not comprehensible enough, but even the simplest sentences I don't understand, so nothing will ever be comprehensible. The only thing that has helped me is studying vocabulary. I'm at 1500 words and even though no input is comprehensible, I can make comprehensible output easily.
Also like to add how my mom told me she only learned Cantonese by watching movies, but she was also learning Chinese and her Cantonese is only basic level to this point.
You bring up valid points. I very much agree that CI is a great way to get started until you reach a decent intermediate level, but if you keep only doing the stuff Krashen says, I agree you'll move very slowly and ultimately, too purely following his advice is kind of a dumb strategy, because, as you said, you need to get the output flowing too. There are good coaches out there that do promote input based, but also tell people to practice speaking once you can grasp many intermediate words. For example, Steve Kaufman and Luca Lampariello are both more into input, but they definitely encourage people to start speaking once you can understand most basic level vocabulary. The point is, input based learning is valid, but not the way Krashen says, he goes much too far with that stuff. Be careful which guru you choose to follow
Hmm, I think to be specific, krashen is saying that language is acquired through comprehensible input alone..which in some way makes sense by way of: ‘you can’t produce something if you don’t understand it in the first place’.. how can we say ‘apple’ if we havnt first acquired it, through reading, listing, etc. input first, output next. But..starting output early can probably help a TON vs his idea of a super long quiet period. Now, output makes sense since it actually lets us truly apply what we know. If we learned the word Apple, maybe sometime later we forget the word, but outputting the word, using it in a sentences, really thinking about how it fits in a sentence, helps solidify it, we create more input through our output. It’s also more fun, and has myriad of benefits. I guess a downfall would be, if we don’t have the immediate feeedback loops. We might confidently ingrain bad habits..bad pronunciation, bad grammar, etc. but, honestly, that should get fixed soon anyway, since how can we know we would say it wrong unless we try to say it at all? that balance of output and input together helps. BUT, krashen’s point that ‘language is only acquired through CI’ makes sense from a very technical point. It doesn’t make sense that we aquire language through output.. just we help grow and remember and sustain the language we acquired through input first. And we’re also not robots, so sometime inefficient routes are needed to sustain our language journey. If our goal is to speak fluently, throwing ‘speaking’ as early as possible to see and measure result it’s probably insanely importat for that motivation,..I just don’t get how, say, MattVsjapan went in silently inputting for YEARS before he started speaking (which, he claims came out very quickly, a matter of weeks/months). It proves the input theory, but..at what cost. no one wants to do it that way, and most probably simplly won’t/can’t
I think the core issue is following any particular methodology ideologically and rejecting everything else. Language learning science is not nearly as well developed as something like physics. And, even in physics, creativity in getting a particular answer is particularly useful, even if standard ways may be known. An ideological/dogmatic approach in any area is typically at best inefficient and can be downright harmful. Pure CI without any investigation into grammar completely ignores the advantage adults have from being able to understand rules and to draw on decades to centuries to millennia of linguistic scholarship (depending on the language). At the opposite end of the spectrum, pure grammar/translation essentially ignores the fact that speaking a language is not a set of rules, but a skill that requires practise. Additionally, pure output practise without any input ignores the fact that you also need to be able to have input from the other person to be able to communicate and will never cause one to actually speak/write in a manner that natives would have a hope of understanding properly. Each of these approaches actually has uses, but they should not be considered the *only* way or even *best* way to learn a language. A flexible, pragmatic approach that combines different aspects to different amounts depending on one's specific goals seems to be most likely to allow learners to succeed.
This was me. I am finally making noticeable forward process in my Mandarin language learning through Fàn Lǎoshī’s pronunciation boot camp and though I still have a long way to go in building vocabulary and understanding sentence structure, my confidence in attempting to speak mandarin has also come up. I can’t wait for your speaking boot camps to start!
This is awesome. I can't believe I didn't think of writing, I've been focused on flashcards and CI, but when writing I'll be acquiring words while practicing.
So glad you made this video, I've been thinking about this too, input is great, but its really when I started outputting more, speaking more, than I noticed significant improvement!
Right?! I mean not so many have really ever underestimated the importance of input, but the output process is also something that should be practiced simultaneously!
Thanks so much for this video! CI is pushed by so many people and they neglect everything else. Don't learn grammar! L:earn it in context! (how will you know you are learning about the particle le from the text, if you don't know what particle le is? ). And writing - yes, yes yes! You formulate thoughts in a very careful and conscious way. That's how, I, unconsciously, learned English, as a kid - I read about Champollion, read that he kept journals in different languages he learned and did the same. Never learned how to speak by speaking but had no problems with speaking and always aced that part. CI makes sense only after some time of learning and should be an additional method, if one finds it useful,.not the main one, imho.
Completely agreed! Again, I think people are having very different definitions of Chi nowadays when talking about it. But anyways, if explicit knowledge and active usage are out of consideration, I doubt if the method is effective and efficient enough to help adult Mandarin learners to use the language correctly, frequently, and freely.
@@marikothecheetah9342 I think you're conflating two different things. I don't think CI says you will learn grammatical concepts, thought that method, it says that you will learn how to use grammar through it. For example, it won't tell that "the" is a definite article and that "a" is an indefinite article, but you'll be able to use them. These are two different and valid interpretations of learning grammar.
@@christophercano4809 no, I am not conflating anything. I've watched a lot of videos about CI, partially due to my vocation (teacher of English), partially out of curiosity. Many videos push the traditional way of learning totally out of the way, claiming, you don't have to know that 'the' is a preposition, just how to use it. Fair enough but some grammatical differences will be very difficult to convey through the sentences only. Chinese and JApanese are highly contextual and sometimes the sentence structure or its formation will tell you when and how to use it. Context can help, but can also be very misleading.
Well, comprehensible input worked wonders for me in English as a foreign language. I have thousands of hours of comprehensible input under my belt, and I remember being amazed with the results, even within the first year of watching American TV shows - now a long, long time ago. Then came many podcasts and audiobooks, and the process not only taught me the language, but it was gratifying, entertaining, and fun! If I could watch and understand TV shows in Chinese, I would call that a huge success. I also don't see myself delivering any doctoral dissertations in Chinese before I can watch Netflix in Chinese. I might be wrong, I might just be dumb.
Really hope more language learners don’t need to go through the painful process that I went! I started learning English 30 years ago, and I believe there’s been so much improvement in the language teaching/learning world💪
I must confess, I only really stumbled across yours and Chris' channels in the last few weeks making my way through all the goodies - this is the first video I've seen of you alone and, speaking only English and it's SO GOOD! you should be so so proud of your work, I'm sure Chris is!! ❤ I've been learning Japanese most of my life, with Chinese constantly tapping on my shoulder...constantly 😂 the intrigue is high. I'm finally taking steps into it and id say that's thanks to Rita's awesome videos and encouragement 👌
As a language teacher, I both agree and disagree. I have been getting into CI even more lately. The point of agreement is that I don't believe that someone should just have input and no output for an extended period of time. Comprehensible input combined with output is the best option in my opinion.
I read Krashen's book, 'The Natural Approach to Language Acquisition' over 10 years ago when I started teaching Chinese English teachers in China. The fact is, unless the teacher has individually assessed a student's current level and developing CI (+1) materials is extremely difficult to do unless you utilize AI to do it. The material must be compiled for each student individually. In teaching Mandarin, the student's level must be assessed in both speaking and reading independently. Again, nearly impossible to do without AI assistance to put it all together. In my training school in China, we do assessments but we don't tutor one-on-one much. Thus, we can't create materials customized for each student. We can put them in classes that approximate their level. Explicit knowledge should be gained by using the language rather than learning rules. Rules are worthless unless they are applied. Application is where the learning process happens.
Unless i'm mishearing, you're saying "i could understand anything i hear or read in English, but i still struggled." I'd be thrilled to reach that level in Mandarin
I never really support only focusing on one single skill. I remember Kemushichan saying that each skill is like a muscle and you have to work them out equally. I also like you're analogy that eating for 20 years doesn't make you a chef. Only listening may lead to great listening skills... but if you aren't applying yourself in other areas, you won't be able to do much else. I know I'm a visual learner and I don't hear very well. So I have to see it AND hear it. I also have ADHD, so I have to write it down and say it multiple times. Then repeat the process a couple of more times and practice, practice, practice. If I could only learn through listening I would be in trouble because I could kinda catch the words but I'd never understand what's going on. 😣
"Comprehensible Input" or "Comprehensible Embedded Input" or "Language data" (if you're a psycholinguist) is not a "buzzword". Language, in general, is quite abstract and complex in its nature, let alone learn it. "Comprehensible input" (or any other name you want to use) is the KEY to language acquisition. "CI" is not a methodology or approach (as some people may think), it is actually the key element to build a mental representation (grammar) of a language in your head. Now, there is a lot of discussion in Second Language Acquisition (SLA) on implicit learning v/s explicit learning with different positions depending on what theories you believe in. There are three main theories in the field that vary slightly regarding this topic: emergentist apporach, usage-based approach, and generative linguistics. All these theories agree on the fact that "CI"/"Comprehensible Language Data"/"Comprehensible Embedded Input" is pivotal to build language in your head, and there is a lot of research that confirm this. Now, some linguists (especially, applied linguists) believe that explicit knowledge (the result of explicit learning) helps implicit knowledge in language learning, and there is research that “supports” this. However, the problem relies on the fact that applied linguists have little to no knowledge at all about the nature of language and nature of acquisition (for more info., read “Was Krashen right? An instructed second language acquisition perspective” by Shawn Loewen and “Why Explicit Knowledge Cannot Become Implicit Knowledge” by Bill VanPatten) and the interpretation of the studies are very poor. There are studies from generative linguists (Roumyana Slabakova, for example) that have found that grammar instruction in advanced second language learners may help the development of language, but many linguists disagree with this. Nonetheless, I personally haven't found research that considers the nature of language and acquisition which have found that grammar instruction helps beginner and intermediate learners of a second language. Regarding Stephen Krashen and the Input Hypothesis, this man was given too much credit for the Input Hypothesis, he actually recognized that there were researchers before him who knew about the importance of input, but they never gave it a name to this abstract concept (what we know now as “CI”). Was Krashen right about CI? Yes, but not entirely. Personally, I think that output is a way to access the implicit system. In a nutshell… Is explicit learning necessary for second language learning? Yes and no. Why? Because there are linguists who consider that explicit learning can affect in the development of L2 implicit knowledge, however, there are also linguists who consider that explicit learning cannot alter the development of implicit knowledge. Should you study grammar or pronunciation or focus on the nitty gritty of language on your own? Yes, why not? Is CI/Comprehensible Language Data/Comprehensible Embedded Input pivotal for second language learning? YES! P.S. I understand that some people are skeptical about this, but this is what researchers have found throughout the 50 or so years since SLA came alive. Do I, personally, give a chance to explicit learning? Yes, I usually do 80% of implicit learning and 20% for explicit learning.
This isanely insanely informed comment. I was gonna bring up VanPatten and challenge the explocit to implicit knowledge. Are u linguist? Would love to discuss some ideas. Im personally interested in form focused instruction and dual comprehension hypothesis
English is technically a second language for me, but I would say since I was born and lived my whole in an English speaking country I've become fluent in the language. However, I never learnt grammar formally instead I just learn what sounds right intuitively. I would say pronunciation is important but learning all the technical grammar concepts not so much.
I definitely agree. In my confucius institute class there is a lot of each lesson for general chat and I get to practice a lot as well as later in the lesson making sentences. I can feel the improvements taking your pronunciation course alongside. Have you built your Harty Potter Lego yet?
I learned French in 3.5 months (c1 level from Italian). My method? 2 months of intensive grammar copying the book directly on the notebook (8 hours daily), then writing some text for 1 week. After that 1 month of Netflix (first 2 weeks with subtitles and after that without them). Then I went to Bayonne for some time and I started speaking (with the help of the translator for some words). After that I took the dalf c1 test and I've passed it. Now I'm trying to learn Chinese and it's a whole different story since I cannot separate grammar, speaking and listening ahah... I'm trying a different approach: less writing and more speaking, I should say that it is more like writing and speaking at the same time. I dunno if it works but I'm wrying it like that. Chinese is a whole new challenge since French was easier 'cause I already speak 4 Latin languages and English (learnt from memes)
going through a ''silent period'' and getting tons of input helped me achieve my goals with english, but when I started applying the same method to korean, it didn't work as well in many ways. I think Comprehensible Input can be amazing for languages that are somewhat similiar to your native language, but it's not as effective for distant languages.
Can confirm, your English is excellent. Even though it's pretty heavily accented, after 10 seconds of hearing you speak I would have zero hesitation speaking completely naturally to you in English, without concern that you might not understand.
Dr. Krashen brought up a super valuable concept that all language teachers should keep in mind, but adult learners’ real learning process just can be so much more effective and efficient with other methods, tools, and exercises.
I guess this was just a long ad for your course but the whole CI or comprehensible input thing is interesting. I don't know why Steven Krashen gets referenced so much on the Internet. Saying people learn when they understand doesn't seem very insightful at all. But people have this impression that if you take something in school you should know it but that's obviously not how it works for languages. If you take a grammar course in school then you learn grammar and that's it (along with a bit of basic vocabulary and pronunciation practice). This basic grammar knowledge can be super helpful if you continue studying on your own but you are just getting started. As someone who lives in the US and just studies languages as a hobby the input method is very appealing to me and I think the result is also very good. I should get good at understanding and be able to express myself to have conversations albeit with mistakes. Maybe a lot of mistakes even but not to the point where people can't understand me usually. Anyone looking to use the language for their career however would likely not be satisfied with this level and would need to take courses like yours. And of course casual learners may enjoy the course too - I like taking language classes but they can get pretty expensive.
well you shouldn't only focus on one method, that is bound to fail.. you should combine difficult material wth relatively easier material, you should get to feel how you or your students feel about learning on that day and do a more focused or less focused lesson
Anyone knownthe sources for Krashen's comments on Mandarin Rita mentioned in the video? Loke where he did 20 classes and said it doesnt work? If shes saying that, then it needs a reference
Rita tried for years to actually speak English despite lots of hard work didn't speak, at least not well Krashen's method doesn't necessarily work: lots of input isn't all it takes. You also need output; Rita wrote lots and lots of English language material. Now Rita speaks English fluently.
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o of tones due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out. If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones). I know it works because I DID IT. Time and time again; And I WILL do it once again with Mandarin. Mandarin IS NOT so hard compared to other languages. And ALL polyglots out there will tell you THE SAME. And you ONLY see monolingual or bilingual people saying it doesn't work. That's the true.
@@JohnnyLynnLee Different people learn in different ways. I happen to speak about a half dozen languages and basically agree with Rita. So, " ALL polyglots out there will [not.] tell you THE SAME"
@@QuizmasterLaw That's ALSO BS. Although there are individual variations due mainly to preferences, we are ALL HUMANS and our brains function the SAME. Language is a BASIC instinct. Steven Pinker, cognitive Psychologist and linguist refers to it as "language instinct". I'll say it AGAIN, virtually ALL poly7glots WILL say they've FAILED learning the traditional way. I've also failed the traditional ways. One day I tried to see what people who ACTUALLY learned did and tried it myself. You are certainly different than me, but, unless for an unnatural unfortunate circumstance you have to eyes on each side of your nose, not 3, not 1 on your forehead. The format an color maybe different, but that's ALL. You're a HUMAN being.
@@QuizmasterLaw I've failed for 10 years (starting and stopping, more stopped than starting) Spanish, which is the closest language to my native language, Brazilian Portuguese. I just thought I 'had no talent" for languages. Once I had a surgery and had to be in bed, belly up, for more than 2 months straight. I was desperate for something to occupy me form when I woke up until I went to sleep. I Already knew ENGLISH by this point. But when people asked me HOW I have learned it I couldn't answer. Then I decided learning languages could be a thing. Bot how? If I was so bad at it? I('ve heard of those so called polyglots and decided see what they had to say, if they had some "magic trick." Then I decided starting learning Japanese and Italian at the SAME time. And I've found out about Matt, from the channel Matt VS Japan, and through him about Stephen Krashen, Steve Kaufman and all those people. I decided to give it a try. I had all day long and nothing to lose. It freaking worked! In one year I was functional in Italian (Italian is close to Portuguese but not as much as Spanish, which I've failed for 10 years) and five to be functional in Japanese (a far more distant language). I'M NO SPECIAL. I also thought I was a failure. The point is exactly that is not YOU, it's the freaking method. We all have what cognitive psychologist and linguist Steven Pinker calls "language instinct"- we are WIRED to learn a language by EVOLUTION.
@@RitaChinese i try to make phrases with words i learned. It helps to keep those words in my memory...but sometimes I make some mistake and when my teachers correct me i don't forget anymore the words
Most CI advocates today don't claim that one day they will magically be able to speak flawlessly, but that speaking becomes much easier and more native-like once you understand the language because you know how it should sound. I agree with many of the points made in the video. I also think it's common sense that you have to speak a lot if you want to speak well, this concept basically applies to anything you want to be good at, you have to make an effort. What I personally don't understand is that all content creators seem to have to debunk other approaches to show what they believe in or what they have experienced is the single truth. Why don't you try to make your point without claiming that other approaches don't work, which in most cases is not even true? Many roads lead to Rome. Besides, it is scientifically proven that different people learn best with different approaches, so the experience of one person or even a group of people cannot reflect the majority.
Many native speakers of any language don't know the formal rules of their language. They learn intuitively what sounds right and how to pronounce words but not the ins and outs of grammar and linguistics.
Hey the beginner-intermediate level boot camp is conducted in English first. As students do more drills and get the hang of more sentence structures, expressing patterns, and unique Chinese grammatical categories, you’ll be guided to use Chinese a lot more!
Hey that’s not what I meant in the video! Listening and reading are the first step to learn to comprehend the written language and the sounds of your target language. My point is that ONLY input is not enough, and the lack of speaking and writing will stop the learners to progress more quickly and effectively.
Wouldn't it be better to use Chinese to teach Chinese than using English to teach Chinese? (Ok - you can get more views on UA-cam using English probably - I'm not even studying Chinese but I clicked this video as I figured the tips would apply to any language)
Wait.....Did Krashen truly say that he isn't sure that you can use the CI method to effectively learn Mandarin? That doesn't sound like something he would say, but if you say so, I believe you.
Probably easier to learn another complex language than construct that thing! haha It's a great analogy though and works really well in this video!! I've been self learning for a few years, but just decided to come to Asia and practice. Been in Taiwan 11 weeks and realised it's not as easy as I thought! haha. Recording all the fun as a journey. I've probably built one of the towers in your lego set! haha
@@AshinAsia ohhh nice!! Yeah I know learning English for 20 years in schools and living in the US are two completely different things😅 Good luck with everything!
I always thought that the baby method is close to useless. Be it because babies practice more or because their brains are just more appropriate for language learning, we adults just can't learn like them. I've got tons of friends who've watched thousands of hours of anime. They can't conjugate a single Japanese sentence. Baby method might be a tool, but there are considerably more that are necessary to use in order to learn any language. I'm glad someone's talking about this. Great video 老师！
@@christophercano4809 I know, that wasn't my point. My point is that if the baby method works, you'd expect people who watch anime to be able to speak out *something*. And yet after thousands of hours the can speak it as much as anyone else.
@@frustis If by "baby method" you mean "comprehensible input", then you'd be wrong. You wouldn't expect people who just watch anime to be able to speak Japanese because the input wouldn't be comprehensible. No serious person is promoting what you're arguing against lol.
@@frustis If you don't understand, let's go by parts. What's the "baby method"? Comprehensible input? (that's what the video talks about). If you're referring to comprehensible input, which is what the video mentions, then no, for comprehensible input to work, the input needs to be comprehensible, so just watching anime wouldn't work.
I really like your ideas generally, but this time you are dead wrong. Well.. almost dead wrong :P It is true that if you focus exclusively on listening and comprehension you can end up being "fluent in understanding" but absolutely unable to speak. That was actually my own experience when I went to study for the first time in the US, and my only preparation for that was listening to a ton of CNN (yeah back in the days the web did not exist yet :( ) But that is a quite extreme situation, usually coupled and caused by "foreign language shyness" that is the automatic "shame and fear of sounding stupid" that is the main obstacle to learn a new language when you are at your first foreign language ... Usually when doing a lot of CI you will be inclined to give your output as well.. but here there are 3 important points. 1) to learn a language beyond the basics you NEEED to interact with native speakers. Take for example that unbelievable guy you interviewed who managed to learn mandarin during the pandemic, while stuck in his campus.. well was not he stuck there with a Chinese roommate? Do you see my point? Give me 6 months stuck in a house with you and I will surely learn good Mandarin (while you might get a nervous breakdown hehe) CI is only the beginning and a force that can sustain you during your language learning experience but true mastery only comes with heavy interaction with natives. As it should be. Babies do get in fact 24h a day interaction with natives :) The ideal is to have a "language mother" that is someone with great patience explicitly dedicated to your learning.. The best approximation of this in my experience is a native boyfriend or girlfriend. I am pretty sure you English skyrocketed after you got with your current husband :) (and his Chinese as well..) 2) Chinese is a special case because of he damn characters :P . A cheap way to do CI when you lack audio material or even better people is .. reading. Reading interesting content made wonders for my English, Spanish , Portuguese and French...(yeah those last 3 ones are easy for me..) but I could not do the same with Chinese.. well I could but the reading will have less effect on the way I speak since the characters do not reflect the sound of the words like when you read an "alphabet language". One of the reasons I want to learn Chinese is in fact getting a perspective on reading and writing in logograms and see if there is actually something especially useful or interesting in it, or if you Chinese are just keeping them for a futile clinging to the past and tradition. 3) Pronunciation and grammar are two very different beasts. It is in fact crucial to focus on good pronunciation from the beginning, especially when learning a tonal language like Chinese where pronunciation heavily influences meaning, but grammar is really the last thing, the final piece to get from good to great, put it all together and make sense of it, again, exactly like in your native language..
It s shocking that as a language teacher you do not understand that everyone has a different way to learn. You clearly have a very analytical, rigorous and systematic mindset, which makes you enjoy rules and grammar , that is why you do not like or understand the comprehensible input method. You are probably also thinking that this method would put you out of work because it does not require a teacher. Which is all wrong. First, the comprehensible input method does not say that you should ONLY rely on input and you will magically become fluent some day. It says that you should not push yourself to speak before you have an instinctive idea of how the language sounds.. and this is to avoid having a thick accent (which by the way you do have in English, which is quite surprising considering you are married to a native speaker..) . Second, while not requiring formal rules teaching, the CI input is all about having one or more language tutors which will help you acquire the language. And study of grammar is not taboo, you just don' t start with it or center your learning on it. Finally, as any method, it works for most, but not for everyone. Most polyglot like Kaufmann or Lampariello use some customised form of CI, but sue there are people who might find a more rule based approach more apt to their mindset and style. Or it might even be that the circumstances do no allow for you to choose the most pleasant and long term efficient method because you have short term need that have to be satistied. The point is that there are guidelines ad inspiration points but eventually a good teacher should be more of a guide than an rule giver, and should find the way of learning that is most apt for his or her students. (by the way that is also the reason why most people studying a language being in class fail.. it is very hard to customise learning for a whole group at the same time).
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o fo tnes due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out. If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones).
@@RitaChinese Nope! The point is EXACTLY that I'm NOT special. I've failed for 10 years (starting and stopping, more stopped than starting) Spanish, which is the closest language to my native language, Brazilian Portuguese. I just thought I 'had no talent" for languages. Once I had a surgery and had to be in bed, belly up, for more than 2 months straight. I was desperate for something to occupy me form when I woke up until I went to sleep. I Already knew ENGLISH by this point. But when people asked me HOW I have learned it I couldn't answer. Then I decided learning languages could be a thing. Bot how? If I was so bad at it? I('ve heard of those so called polyglots and decided see what they had to say, if they had some "magic trick." Then I decided starting learning Japanese and Italian at the SAME time. And I've found out about Matt, from the channel Matt VS Japan, and through him about Stephen Krashen, Steve Kaufman and all those people. I decided to give it a try. I had all day long and nothing to lose. It freaking worked! In one year I was functional in Italian (Italian is close to Portuguese but not as much as Spanish, which I've failed for 10 years) and five to be functional in Japanese (a far more distant language). I'M NO SPECIAL. I also thought I was a failure. The point is exactly that is not YOU, it's the freaking method. We all have what cognitive psychologist and linguist Steven Pinker calls "language instinct"- we are WIRED to learn a language by EVOLUTION.
@@RitaChinese By the way, remember when I said I knew English but I didn't know HOW? Input theory answered this! I NEVER tried to learn ENLISH. It turns out I'm POOR and I couldn't afford books and classes and whatnot (I even faced HUNGER in my life). I had to download it! But 51% of the internet is in English. I was trying to learn about ROMAN HISTORY through an English book I could understand only 5% of each page, I was trying to learn MUAY THAI, through a UA-cam video, watching it over and over again because I couldn't understand the instructions. Eventually I'd look up some grammar and stuff, but because it would APPEAR, first in the stuff I was trying to understand. I NEVER set out to learn ENGLISH. I intended to learn OTHER things and it had many times to be THROUGH English- and that's the "secret." AGAIN, I'm no special. Everybody heard of soemeone who learned English playing video games for example.
Well I've learned both Vietnamese and Mandarin, in that order, and there is nothing more difficult about Vietnamese, they are 差不多。 If anything, Mandarin is harder because you also have to learn the characters.
Finally I have some bad news for you :) While for other subjects, like my own, programming, having an instructor teaching you "live" or watching video tutorials might not make a big difference (actually the recorded videos might be better because not improvised and better structured..) for language learning a recorded course will NEVER even come CLOSE to the value of interacting live with an instructor...so a live course with a so so instructor will actually be much more useful than a recorded one with a top instructor like you. I know you want to go the route of pre recorded video classes because it allows you to have an unlimited number of students ( and earnings...) with the same effort, but unfortunately the best way to teach languages is LIVE. I wish you would focus on teaching live intensive courses like for example @PortuguescomMarciaMacedoBR does for Portuguese.
As an English native speaker who reached HSK5 years ago my advice for learning Chinese is:
1. Do a course and get the basics of pronunciation right and do not forget tones. Many Chinese native speakers pay more attention to the tone than the basic sound - tones are important.
2. The beginning stages are building the foundations. This happens by yourself at home or in the classroom and involves learning grammar and vocab.
3. Learn to read and write characters. Most words are made up of two or three characters and if you know the characters, once you reach an intermediate stage they will help you guess words. For example: a thermal flask in Chinese is 保温瓶 - the three characters literally mean protect, warm, bottle. If you know the characters it is easy to remember, and the more characters you know the faster you learn them because they are made up of repeating parts that give clues to both pronunciation and meaning.
4. Be patient learning Chinese and the characters is a very slow process, but the more you know, the faster it becomes.
5. It will be a long time before you can use the language - you will need the foundation first. Even then you won't be used to speaking and listening and will have trouble. It's another slow burn. Persist!
6. Read. That develops your understanding of usage of words. This is how native speakers develop their language.
7. Celebrate your wins. Learning Chinese is a long slow process (it takes 3 years full-time to be able to even start to really use the language) and you need to persist and encourage yourself. Look for milestones and things that you can do now but couldn't do before.
8. Don't focus on what you can't do. Put your head down and keep going.
9. The rewards of learning Chinese are enormous. People will admire you and respect you for it.
I wish more people looked at this with the same mentality. You hear often that children are better at learning because of how they absorb information, but I think that the fact that we can focus and actively practice is the whole reason why human knowledge doesnt provide diminishing returns as an adult.
Well said, Anthony! Can't agree more. I understand "effortless" and "passive" are also really appealing to humans haha.
@@RitaChinese Maybe you could create a course called 躺平学中文. 😉🤭 Just kidding, I think your pronunciation course is great, in particular the bootcamp, which unfortunately is about to finish. I enjoyed it a lot and appreciate all the effort and clear, superb feedback you and the other two teachers provided to us on a daily basis. In this way, allowing us to produce more - dare I say it 🤭 - comprehensible output. 😉🙏🏼 辛苦了！祝好，裴朗
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o of tones due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out.
If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones).
I know it works because I DID IT. Time and time again; And I WILL do it once again with Mandarin. Mandarin IS NOT so hard compared to other languages.
And ALL polyglots out there will tell you THE SAME. And you ONLY see monolingual or bilingual people saying it doesn't work. That's the true.
@@JohnnyLynnLee Who are you responding to? What is it you claim that "works"?
@@JohnnyLynnLeewhich CI resources u use for viet? I only found like 2 main youtube channels
it has been 3 months for me in china, i started learning chinese about two months ago, I've already finished Hsk1 and now am in mid Hsk2, your videos has been great help so far, thanks for the uploads.
Yayy congrats!! So happy to hear that!! Keep it up!
If you’ve watched comprehensible input (CI) for 20 years and still can’t understand basic conversations, then you weren’t truly engaging with CI. It’s that simple. CI stands for comprehensible input-if you cannot comprehend it, then by definition, it’s not comprehensible.
I also agree that speaking is a separate skill that needs to be developed. It’s easier to speak when you already have a working knowledge of the language, but it still requires practice. Linguists have discovered that speaking alone doesn’t inherently make you better at the language; it makes you better at speaking. However, it doesn’t offer much help in reading or understanding.
CI is the best way to learn, but if you’re not doing anything else, it will take much longer to learn. Ideally, you want to form an explicit knowledge of the language and then internalize it with CI. Think of CI as a way to reinforce what you’ve learned and build more stable pathways in your brain. As Matt vs Japan once said, using Anki to explicitly learn is like planting a seed, and CI is like watering that seed-you need both to grow a plant. This is especially true for languages like Chinese, where certain aspects, such as tones, can be challenging for your brain to comprehend initially.
If you don’t give your brain something to focus on, it will never learn about it. You need to learn explicitly first, then immerse yourself in the language. Most importantly, pick an aspect to focus on-try listening for the words you’ve learned or paying attention to the tones you hear, for example. By doing this, your immersion will become much more effective.
At the end of the day, linguistics is still a relatively new field, and we don’t have all the answers. If you find a method that works for you, stick with it. The most efficient way to learn a language isn’t always the best for everyone. The best method is the one you enjoy and can maintain. Remember, learning a language is a journey, not a race. Don’t get bogged down by a boring method-do what you like, spend as much time as you can with the language, and you will improve.
100% agree. As someone that as watched 1000s of hours of Chinese content, I still don't understand anything. Some argue it's not comprehensible enough, but even the simplest sentences I don't understand, so nothing will ever be comprehensible.
The only thing that has helped me is studying vocabulary. I'm at 1500 words and even though no input is comprehensible, I can make comprehensible output easily.
I think combining CI and practicing the language by writing and speaking is better option
Also like to add how my mom told me she only learned Cantonese by watching movies, but she was also learning Chinese and her Cantonese is only basic level to this point.
You bring up valid points. I very much agree that CI is a great way to get started until you reach a decent intermediate level, but if you keep only doing the stuff Krashen says, I agree you'll move very slowly and ultimately, too purely following his advice is kind of a dumb strategy, because, as you said, you need to get the output flowing too.
There are good coaches out there that do promote input based, but also tell people to practice speaking once you can grasp many intermediate words. For example, Steve Kaufman and Luca Lampariello are both more into input, but they definitely encourage people to start speaking once you can understand most basic level vocabulary.
The point is, input based learning is valid, but not the way Krashen says, he goes much too far with that stuff. Be careful which guru you choose to follow
Hmm, I think to be specific, krashen is saying that language is acquired through comprehensible input alone..which in some way makes sense by way of: ‘you can’t produce something if you don’t understand it in the first place’.. how can we say ‘apple’ if we havnt first acquired it, through reading, listing, etc. input first, output next. But..starting output early can probably help a TON vs his idea of a super long quiet period.
Now, output makes sense since it actually lets us truly apply what we know. If we learned the word Apple, maybe sometime later we forget the word, but outputting the word, using it in a sentences, really thinking about how it fits in a sentence, helps solidify it, we create more input through our output. It’s also more fun, and has myriad of benefits.
I guess a downfall would be, if we don’t have the immediate feeedback loops. We might confidently ingrain bad habits..bad pronunciation, bad grammar, etc. but, honestly, that should get fixed soon anyway, since how can we know we would say it wrong unless we try to say it at all? that balance of output and input together helps. BUT, krashen’s point that ‘language is only acquired through CI’ makes sense from a very technical point. It doesn’t make sense that we aquire language through output.. just we help grow and remember and sustain the language we acquired through input first.
And we’re also not robots, so sometime inefficient routes are needed to sustain our language journey. If our goal is to speak fluently, throwing ‘speaking’ as early as possible to see and measure result it’s probably insanely importat for that motivation,..I just don’t get how, say, MattVsjapan went in silently inputting for YEARS before he started speaking (which, he claims came out very quickly, a matter of weeks/months). It proves the input theory, but..at what cost. no one wants to do it that way, and most probably simplly won’t/can’t
I think the core issue is following any particular methodology ideologically and rejecting everything else. Language learning science is not nearly as well developed as something like physics. And, even in physics, creativity in getting a particular answer is particularly useful, even if standard ways may be known. An ideological/dogmatic approach in any area is typically at best inefficient and can be downright harmful.
Pure CI without any investigation into grammar completely ignores the advantage adults have from being able to understand rules and to draw on decades to centuries to millennia of linguistic scholarship (depending on the language). At the opposite end of the spectrum, pure grammar/translation essentially ignores the fact that speaking a language is not a set of rules, but a skill that requires practise. Additionally, pure output practise without any input ignores the fact that you also need to be able to have input from the other person to be able to communicate and will never cause one to actually speak/write in a manner that natives would have a hope of understanding properly.
Each of these approaches actually has uses, but they should not be considered the *only* way or even *best* way to learn a language. A flexible, pragmatic approach that combines different aspects to different amounts depending on one's specific goals seems to be most likely to allow learners to succeed.
This was me. I am finally making noticeable forward process in my Mandarin language learning through Fàn Lǎoshī’s pronunciation boot camp and though I still have a long way to go in building vocabulary and understanding sentence structure, my confidence in attempting to speak mandarin has also come up. I can’t wait for your speaking boot camps to start!
Yayy I’m so happy for your progress over the past 3 months!! Everything is possible, if the materials, methods, and motivation are right😄🙌
This is awesome. I can't believe I didn't think of writing, I've been focused on flashcards and CI, but when writing I'll be acquiring words while practicing.
Probably because it takes more work 😅😅
So glad you made this video, I've been thinking about this too, input is great, but its really when I started outputting more, speaking more, than I noticed significant improvement!
Right?! I mean not so many have really ever underestimated the importance of input, but the output process is also something that should be practiced simultaneously!
Thanks so much for this video! CI is pushed by so many people and they neglect everything else. Don't learn grammar! L:earn it in context! (how will you know you are learning about the particle le from the text, if you don't know what particle le is? ). And writing - yes, yes yes! You formulate thoughts in a very careful and conscious way. That's how, I, unconsciously, learned English, as a kid - I read about Champollion, read that he kept journals in different languages he learned and did the same. Never learned how to speak by speaking but had no problems with speaking and always aced that part.
CI makes sense only after some time of learning and should be an additional method, if one finds it useful,.not the main one, imho.
Completely agreed! Again, I think people are having very different definitions of Chi nowadays when talking about it. But anyways, if explicit knowledge and active usage are out of consideration, I doubt if the method is effective and efficient enough to help adult Mandarin learners to use the language correctly, frequently, and freely.
@@RitaChinese Couldn't agree more. :)
@@marikothecheetah9342 I think you're conflating two different things. I don't think CI says you will learn grammatical concepts, thought that method, it says that you will learn how to use grammar through it. For example, it won't tell that "the" is a definite article and that "a" is an indefinite article, but you'll be able to use them. These are two different and valid interpretations of learning grammar.
@@christophercano4809 no, I am not conflating anything. I've watched a lot of videos about CI, partially due to my vocation (teacher of English), partially out of curiosity. Many videos push the traditional way of learning totally out of the way, claiming, you don't have to know that 'the' is a preposition, just how to use it. Fair enough but some grammatical differences will be very difficult to convey through the sentences only. Chinese and JApanese are highly contextual and sometimes the sentence structure or its formation will tell you when and how to use it. Context can help, but can also be very misleading.
Well, comprehensible input worked wonders for me in English as a foreign language. I have thousands of hours of comprehensible input under my belt, and I remember being amazed with the results, even within the first year of watching American TV shows - now a long, long time ago. Then came many podcasts and audiobooks, and the process not only taught me the language, but it was gratifying, entertaining, and fun! If I could watch and understand TV shows in Chinese, I would call that a huge success. I also don't see myself delivering any doctoral dissertations in Chinese before I can watch Netflix in Chinese. I might be wrong, I might just be dumb.
这太有共鸣了！So great to hear your story Rita! thanks for sharing!
Really hope more language learners don’t need to go through the painful process that I went! I started learning English 30 years ago, and I believe there’s been so much improvement in the language teaching/learning world💪
I must confess, I only really stumbled across yours and Chris' channels in the last few weeks making my way through all the goodies - this is the first video I've seen of you alone and, speaking only English and it's SO GOOD! you should be so so proud of your work, I'm sure Chris is!! ❤
I've been learning Japanese most of my life, with Chinese constantly tapping on my shoulder...constantly 😂 the intrigue is high. I'm finally taking steps into it and id say that's thanks to Rita's awesome videos and encouragement 👌
As a language teacher, I both agree and disagree. I have been getting into CI even more lately. The point of agreement is that I don't believe that someone should just have input and no output for an extended period of time. Comprehensible input combined with output is the best option in my opinion.
I read Krashen's book, 'The Natural Approach to Language Acquisition' over 10 years ago when I started teaching Chinese English teachers in China. The fact is, unless the teacher has individually assessed a student's current level and developing CI (+1) materials is extremely difficult to do unless you utilize AI to do it. The material must be compiled for each student individually. In teaching Mandarin, the student's level must be assessed in both speaking and reading independently. Again, nearly impossible to do without AI assistance to put it all together. In my training school in China, we do assessments but we don't tutor one-on-one much. Thus, we can't create materials customized for each student. We can put them in classes that approximate their level. Explicit knowledge should be gained by using the language rather than learning rules. Rules are worthless unless they are applied. Application is where the learning process happens.
Unless i'm mishearing, you're saying "i could understand anything i hear or read in English, but i still struggled." I'd be thrilled to reach that level in Mandarin
I never really support only focusing on one single skill. I remember Kemushichan saying that each skill is like a muscle and you have to work them out equally. I also like you're analogy that eating for 20 years doesn't make you a chef. Only listening may lead to great listening skills... but if you aren't applying yourself in other areas, you won't be able to do much else.
I know I'm a visual learner and I don't hear very well. So I have to see it AND hear it. I also have ADHD, so I have to write it down and say it multiple times. Then repeat the process a couple of more times and practice, practice, practice. If I could only learn through listening I would be in trouble because I could kinda catch the words but I'd never understand what's going on. 😣
We definitely should use as many senses as possible when learning to perceive and produce sounds/written signs!
"Comprehensible Input" or "Comprehensible Embedded Input" or "Language data" (if you're a psycholinguist) is not a "buzzword". Language, in general, is quite abstract and complex in its nature, let alone learn it. "Comprehensible input" (or any other name you want to use) is the KEY to language acquisition. "CI" is not a methodology or approach (as some people may think), it is actually the key element to build a mental representation (grammar) of a language in your head. Now, there is a lot of discussion in Second Language Acquisition (SLA) on implicit learning v/s explicit learning with different positions depending on what theories you believe in. There are three main theories in the field that vary slightly regarding this topic: emergentist apporach, usage-based approach, and generative linguistics. All these theories agree on the fact that "CI"/"Comprehensible Language Data"/"Comprehensible Embedded Input" is pivotal to build language in your head, and there is a lot of research that confirm this. Now, some linguists (especially, applied linguists) believe that explicit knowledge (the result of explicit learning) helps implicit knowledge in language learning, and there is research that “supports” this. However, the problem relies on the fact that applied linguists have little to no knowledge at all about the nature of language and nature of acquisition (for more info., read “Was Krashen right? An instructed second language acquisition perspective” by Shawn Loewen and “Why Explicit Knowledge Cannot Become Implicit Knowledge” by Bill VanPatten) and the interpretation of the studies are very poor. There are studies from generative linguists (Roumyana Slabakova, for example) that have found that grammar instruction in advanced second language learners may help the development of language, but many linguists disagree with this. Nonetheless, I personally haven't found research that considers the nature of language and acquisition which have found that grammar instruction helps beginner and intermediate learners of a second language.
Regarding Stephen Krashen and the Input Hypothesis, this man was given too much credit for the Input Hypothesis, he actually recognized that there were researchers before him who knew about the importance of input, but they never gave it a name to this abstract concept (what we know now as “CI”). Was Krashen right about CI? Yes, but not entirely. Personally, I think that output is a way to access the implicit system.
In a nutshell…
Is explicit learning necessary for second language learning? Yes and no. Why? Because there are linguists who consider that explicit learning can affect in the development of L2 implicit knowledge, however, there are also linguists who consider that explicit learning cannot alter the development of implicit knowledge.
Should you study grammar or pronunciation or focus on the nitty gritty of language on your own? Yes, why not?
Is CI/Comprehensible Language Data/Comprehensible Embedded Input pivotal for second language learning? YES!
P.S. I understand that some people are skeptical about this, but this is what researchers have found throughout the 50 or so years since SLA came alive. Do I, personally, give a chance to explicit learning? Yes, I usually do 80% of implicit learning and 20% for explicit learning.
This isanely insanely informed comment. I was gonna bring up VanPatten and challenge the explocit to implicit knowledge.
Are u linguist? Would love to discuss some ideas. Im personally interested in form focused instruction and dual comprehension hypothesis
Hello. No, I'm not a linguist, I'm just an EFL teacher who's interested in research and linguistics.
Yea, I'd like to discuss some ideas if you want.
@@gonzalocabello323 do you have a contact I can reach out to you with?
English is technically a second language for me, but I would say since I was born and lived my whole in an English speaking country I've become fluent in the language. However, I never learnt grammar formally instead I just learn what sounds right intuitively. I would say pronunciation is important but learning all the technical grammar concepts not so much.
I definitely agree. In my confucius institute class there is a lot of each lesson for general chat and I get to practice a lot as well as later in the lesson making sentences. I can feel the improvements taking your pronunciation course alongside.
Have you built your Harty Potter Lego yet?
Input and output both are necessary! Haha I wish I had time to do it! Was actually Christmas gift from Chris😆
I learned French in 3.5 months (c1 level from Italian). My method? 2 months of intensive grammar copying the book directly on the notebook (8 hours daily), then writing some text for 1 week. After that 1 month of Netflix (first 2 weeks with subtitles and after that without them). Then I went to Bayonne for some time and I started speaking (with the help of the translator for some words). After that I took the dalf c1 test and I've passed it. Now I'm trying to learn Chinese and it's a whole different story since I cannot separate grammar, speaking and listening ahah... I'm trying a different approach: less writing and more speaking, I should say that it is more like writing and speaking at the same time. I dunno if it works but I'm wrying it like that. Chinese is a whole new challenge since French was easier 'cause I already speak 4 Latin languages and English (learnt from memes)
going through a ''silent period'' and getting tons of input helped me achieve my goals with english, but when I started applying the same method to korean, it didn't work as well in many ways. I think Comprehensible Input can be amazing for languages that are somewhat similiar to your native language, but it's not as effective for distant languages.
Great job rita
Can confirm, your English is excellent. Even though it's pretty heavily accented, after 10 seconds of hearing you speak I would have zero hesitation speaking completely naturally to you in English, without concern that you might not understand.
I had the same experience with Mandarin, output is when shit gets real. And hearing about Krashen's thoughts on on Chinese is terrifying
Dr. Krashen brought up a super valuable concept that all language teachers should keep in mind, but adult learners’ real learning process just can be so much more effective and efficient with other methods, tools, and exercises.
I guess this was just a long ad for your course but the whole CI or comprehensible input thing is interesting. I don't know why Steven Krashen gets referenced so much on the Internet. Saying people learn when they understand doesn't seem very insightful at all. But people have this impression that if you take something in school you should know it but that's obviously not how it works for languages. If you take a grammar course in school then you learn grammar and that's it (along with a bit of basic vocabulary and pronunciation practice). This basic grammar knowledge can be super helpful if you continue studying on your own but you are just getting started. As someone who lives in the US and just studies languages as a hobby the input method is very appealing to me and I think the result is also very good. I should get good at understanding and be able to express myself to have conversations albeit with mistakes. Maybe a lot of mistakes even but not to the point where people can't understand me usually. Anyone looking to use the language for their career however would likely not be satisfied with this level and would need to take courses like yours. And of course casual learners may enjoy the course too - I like taking language classes but they can get pretty expensive.
well you shouldn't only focus on one method, that is bound to fail.. you should combine difficult material wth relatively easier material, you should get to feel how you or your students feel about learning on that day and do a more focused or less focused lesson
I am skeptical, but I am willing to let go of my CI bias and try increasing output. It might help me break out of this low-intermediate plateau.
It seems like an elaborate scheme to pass the Lego purchases as work expenses hahaha
Nice job on your video :)
Now I really should register a company in the US😆
Anyone knownthe sources for Krashen's comments on Mandarin Rita mentioned in the video?
Loke where he did 20 classes and said it doesnt work? If shes saying that, then it needs a reference
Rita tried for years to actually speak English
despite lots of hard work didn't speak, at least not well
Krashen's method doesn't necessarily work: lots of input isn't all it takes.
You also need output; Rita wrote lots and lots of English language material. Now Rita speaks English fluently.
Good summary😄
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o of tones due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out.
If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones).
I know it works because I DID IT. Time and time again; And I WILL do it once again with Mandarin. Mandarin IS NOT so hard compared to other languages.
And ALL polyglots out there will tell you THE SAME. And you ONLY see monolingual or bilingual people saying it doesn't work. That's the true.
@@JohnnyLynnLee Different people learn in different ways. I happen to speak about a half dozen languages and basically agree with Rita. So, " ALL polyglots out there will [not.] tell you THE SAME"
@@QuizmasterLaw That's ALSO BS. Although there are individual variations due mainly to preferences, we are ALL HUMANS and our brains function the SAME. Language is a BASIC instinct. Steven Pinker, cognitive Psychologist and linguist refers to it as "language instinct". I'll say it AGAIN, virtually ALL poly7glots WILL say they've FAILED learning the traditional way. I've also failed the traditional ways. One day I tried to see what people who ACTUALLY learned did and tried it myself. You are certainly different than me, but, unless for an unnatural unfortunate circumstance you have to eyes on each side of your nose, not 3, not 1 on your forehead. The format an color maybe different, but that's ALL. You're a HUMAN being.
@@QuizmasterLaw I've failed for 10 years (starting and stopping, more stopped than starting) Spanish, which is the closest language to my native language, Brazilian Portuguese. I just thought I 'had no talent" for languages. Once I had a surgery and had to be in bed, belly up, for more than 2 months straight. I was desperate for something to occupy me form when I woke up until I went to sleep. I Already knew ENGLISH by this point. But when people asked me HOW I have learned it I couldn't answer.
Then I decided learning languages could be a thing. Bot how? If I was so bad at it? I('ve heard of those so called polyglots and decided see what they had to say, if they had some "magic trick." Then I decided starting learning Japanese and Italian at the SAME time. And I've found out about Matt, from the channel Matt VS Japan, and through him about Stephen Krashen, Steve Kaufman and all those people. I decided to give it a try. I had all day long and nothing to lose. It freaking worked! In one year I was functional in Italian (Italian is close to Portuguese but not as much as Spanish, which I've failed for 10 years) and five to be functional in Japanese (a far more distant language).
I'M NO SPECIAL. I also thought I was a failure. The point is exactly that is not YOU, it's the freaking method. We all have what cognitive psychologist and linguist Steven Pinker calls "language instinct"- we are WIRED to learn a language by EVOLUTION.
Thank you. I feel like I needed to hear this to progress. Comprehensible Input is definitely not enough after all
Thank you laoshi for those points
Glad you find the video helpful!
@@RitaChinese i try to make phrases with words i learned. It helps to keep those words in my memory...but sometimes I make some mistake and when my teachers correct me i don't forget anymore the words
Before I "comprehend" something I must learn it FIRST. COMMON SENSE 😅
I really hope we see that Lego set finished in a future video 😁
Hahah I really wanna set it up when I have time😆 it’s been sitting there for half a year now😅
Most CI advocates today don't claim that one day they will magically be able to speak flawlessly, but that speaking becomes much easier and more native-like once you understand the language because you know how it should sound. I agree with many of the points made in the video. I also think it's common sense that you have to speak a lot if you want to speak well, this concept basically applies to anything you want to be good at, you have to make an effort. What I personally don't understand is that all content creators seem to have to debunk other approaches to show what they believe in or what they have experienced is the single truth. Why don't you try to make your point without claiming that other approaches don't work, which in most cases is not even true? Many roads lead to Rome. Besides, it is scientifically proven that different people learn best with different approaches, so the experience of one person or even a group of people cannot reflect the majority.
Many native speakers of any language don't know the formal rules of their language. They learn intuitively what sounds right and how to pronounce words but not the ins and outs of grammar and linguistics.
Is the bootcamp conducted in Chinese?
Hey the beginner-intermediate level boot camp is conducted in English first. As students do more drills and get the hang of more sentence structures, expressing patterns, and unique Chinese grammatical categories, you’ll be guided to use Chinese a lot more!
OMG you're so dynamite and interesting to listen to and watch.
Wow, you really just 'gave the finger ' to Dr Krashen without a backwards glance. Bold. What did he do to you?
With all due respect, telling the truth that I’ve seen over years
Does that mean language learning activities like reading and listening are useless?
Hey that’s not what I meant in the video! Listening and reading are the first step to learn to comprehend the written language and the sounds of your target language. My point is that ONLY input is not enough, and the lack of speaking and writing will stop the learners to progress more quickly and effectively.
@@RitaChinese thanks, that’s assuring!
Wouldn't it be better to use Chinese to teach Chinese than using English to teach Chinese? (Ok - you can get more views on UA-cam using English probably - I'm not even studying Chinese but I clicked this video as I figured the tips would apply to any language)
Wait.....Did Krashen truly say that he isn't sure that you can use the CI method to effectively learn Mandarin? That doesn't sound like something he would say, but if you say so, I believe you.
Yeah, he really said it to my friend during the Zoom call.
@@RitaChineseis there any public sources for that claim though? Otherwise it's merely hearsay
The grandmaster in mandarin
Me seeing this video: So she wants me to believe that she is more than 22?!
Great video, did you have to buy the Lego set just for the film? 😂
They cost a fortune. Was it an excuse to buy it? 😂
Haha it was my Christmas gift from Chris😁 just haven’t got to assemble it!
Probably easier to learn another complex language than construct that thing! haha
It's a great analogy though and works really well in this video!! I've been self learning for a few years, but just decided to come to Asia and practice. Been in Taiwan 11 weeks and realised it's not as easy as I thought! haha. Recording all the fun as a journey. I've probably built one of the towers in your lego set! haha
@@AshinAsia ohhh nice!! Yeah I know learning English for 20 years in schools and living in the US are two completely different things😅 Good luck with everything!
I always thought that the baby method is close to useless. Be it because babies practice more or because their brains are just more appropriate for language learning, we adults just can't learn like them.
I've got tons of friends who've watched thousands of hours of anime. They can't conjugate a single Japanese sentence. Baby method might be a tool, but there are considerably more that are necessary to use in order to learn any language.
I'm glad someone's talking about this. Great video 老师！
I don't think there's any serious person that says that you can learn Japanese by literally just watching anime.
@@christophercano4809 I know, that wasn't my point. My point is that if the baby method works, you'd expect people who watch anime to be able to speak out *something*. And yet after thousands of hours the can speak it as much as anyone else.
@@frustis If by "baby method" you mean "comprehensible input", then you'd be wrong. You wouldn't expect people who just watch anime to be able to speak Japanese because the input wouldn't be comprehensible.
No serious person is promoting what you're arguing against lol.
@@christophercano4809 you're not getting it.
@@frustis If you don't understand, let's go by parts. What's the "baby method"? Comprehensible input? (that's what the video talks about).
If you're referring to comprehensible input, which is what the video mentions, then no, for comprehensible input to work, the input needs to be comprehensible, so just watching anime wouldn't work.
I'm one of the 94%, lol.
Really? I doubt it😁
@@RitaChinese Well, I have a 94% chance of been right.
Dear Rita, the last vowel of "acquire" sounds as in liar.
I really like your ideas generally, but this time you are dead wrong.
Well.. almost dead wrong :P
It is true that if you focus exclusively on listening and comprehension you can end up being "fluent in understanding" but absolutely unable to speak. That was actually my own experience when I went to study for the first time in the US, and my only preparation for that was listening to a ton of CNN (yeah back in the days the web did not exist yet :( )
But that is a quite extreme situation, usually coupled and caused by "foreign language shyness" that is the automatic "shame and fear of sounding stupid" that is the main obstacle to learn a new language when you are at your first foreign language ...
Usually when doing a lot of CI you will be inclined to give your output as well.. but here there are 3 important points.
1) to learn a language beyond the basics you NEEED to interact with native speakers.
Take for example that unbelievable guy you interviewed who managed to learn mandarin during the pandemic, while stuck in his campus.. well was not he stuck there with a Chinese roommate?
Do you see my point? Give me 6 months stuck in a house with you and I will surely learn good Mandarin (while you might get a nervous breakdown hehe)
CI is only the beginning and a force that can sustain you during your language learning experience but true mastery only comes with heavy interaction with natives. As it should be. Babies do get in fact 24h a day interaction with natives :)
The ideal is to have a "language mother" that is someone with great patience explicitly dedicated to your learning.. The best approximation of this in my experience is a native boyfriend or girlfriend. I am pretty sure you English skyrocketed after you got with your current husband :) (and his Chinese as well..)
2) Chinese is a special case because of he damn characters :P .
A cheap way to do CI when you lack audio material or even better people is .. reading. Reading interesting content made wonders for my English, Spanish , Portuguese and French...(yeah those last 3 ones are easy for me..) but I could not do the same with Chinese.. well I could but the reading will have less effect on the way I speak since the characters do not reflect the sound of the words like when you read an "alphabet language".
One of the reasons I want to learn Chinese is in fact getting a perspective on reading and writing in logograms and see if there is actually something especially useful or interesting in it, or if you Chinese are just keeping them for a futile clinging to the past and tradition.
3) Pronunciation and grammar are two very different beasts. It is in fact crucial to focus on good pronunciation from the beginning, especially when learning a tonal language like Chinese where pronunciation heavily influences meaning, but grammar is really the last thing, the final piece to get from good to great, put it all together and make sense of it, again, exactly like in your native language..
It s shocking that as a language teacher you do not understand that everyone has a different way to learn. You clearly have a very analytical, rigorous and systematic mindset, which makes you enjoy rules and grammar , that is why you do not like or understand the comprehensible input method. You are probably also thinking that this method would put you out of work because it does not require a teacher. Which is all wrong.
First, the comprehensible input method does not say that you should ONLY rely on input and you will magically become fluent some day. It says that you should not push yourself to speak before you have an instinctive idea of how the language sounds.. and this is to avoid having a thick accent (which by the way you do have in English, which is quite surprising considering you are married to a native speaker..) . Second, while not requiring formal rules teaching, the CI input is all about having one or more language tutors which will help you acquire the language. And study of grammar is not taboo, you just don' t start with it or center your learning on it.
Finally, as any method, it works for most, but not for everyone. Most polyglot like Kaufmann or Lampariello use some customised form of CI, but sue there are people who might find a more rule based approach more apt to their mindset and style. Or it might even be that the circumstances do no allow for you to choose the most pleasant and long term efficient method because you have short term need that have to be satistied.
The point is that there are guidelines ad inspiration points but eventually a good teacher should be more of a guide than an rule giver, and should find the way of learning that is most apt for his or her students. (by the way that is also the reason why most people studying a language being in class fail.. it is very hard to customise learning for a whole group at the same time).
There's really no need for personal attacks.
That's completely BS. Why wouldn't it work for Mandarin? I've learned English, Italian, Japanese (fluent) and Vietnamese (still in progress and, to be honest, WAY HARDER than Mandarin- at least for me who already have some command of characters due to Japanese and some command o fo tnes due to Vietnamese- which has a far more complex tonal system). And I'm using he SAME process to learn Mandarin know (while still improving my Vietnamese.) No wonder a teacher would say that, since this make teachers basically USELESS. And I AM a teacher and I'm saying that. Because I've ONLY became a teacher due to comprehensible input. OF COURSE for far more distant languages you need a bit more of explicit knowledge. but, still, not a teacher. I NEVER EVER had a teacher. I did watch some videos with teachers along the way. I did consult textbooks here and there. But NEVER paid a DIME to learn ANY of thee languages I know, INCLUDING the English I'm using know as Brazilian. with internet ace3ss you don't need to spend any money to learn a language. And that's what freak teachers out.
If it worked for VIETNAMESE mandarin is a piece of cake. Mandarin is overrated as a hard language. Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, and I'd say even Japanese are HARDER as far as I'm seeing (again, for someone coming form a language with characters and a language with harder tones).
You’re a genius. Good luck with your studies.
@@RitaChinese Nope! The point is EXACTLY that I'm NOT special. I've failed for 10 years (starting and stopping, more stopped than starting) Spanish, which is the closest language to my native language, Brazilian Portuguese. I just thought I 'had no talent" for languages. Once I had a surgery and had to be in bed, belly up, for more than 2 months straight. I was desperate for something to occupy me form when I woke up until I went to sleep. I Already knew ENGLISH by this point. But when people asked me HOW I have learned it I couldn't answer.
Then I decided learning languages could be a thing. Bot how? If I was so bad at it? I('ve heard of those so called polyglots and decided see what they had to say, if they had some "magic trick." Then I decided starting learning Japanese and Italian at the SAME time. And I've found out about Matt, from the channel Matt VS Japan, and through him about Stephen Krashen, Steve Kaufman and all those people. I decided to give it a try. I had all day long and nothing to lose. It freaking worked! In one year I was functional in Italian (Italian is close to Portuguese but not as much as Spanish, which I've failed for 10 years) and five to be functional in Japanese (a far more distant language).
I'M NO SPECIAL. I also thought I was a failure. The point is exactly that is not YOU, it's the freaking method. We all have what cognitive psychologist and linguist Steven Pinker calls "language instinct"- we are WIRED to learn a language by EVOLUTION.
@@RitaChinese By the way, remember when I said I knew English but I didn't know HOW? Input theory answered this! I NEVER tried to learn ENLISH. It turns out I'm POOR and I couldn't afford books and classes and whatnot (I even faced HUNGER in my life). I had to download it! But 51% of the internet is in English. I was trying to learn about ROMAN HISTORY through an English book I could understand only 5% of each page, I was trying to learn MUAY THAI, through a UA-cam video, watching it over and over again because I couldn't understand the instructions. Eventually I'd look up some grammar and stuff, but because it would APPEAR, first in the stuff I was trying to understand. I NEVER set out to learn ENGLISH. I intended to learn OTHER things and it had many times to be THROUGH English- and that's the "secret." AGAIN, I'm no special. Everybody heard of soemeone who learned English playing video games for example.
Hey friend, I agree with much of what you say, but it seems you're trolling and exaggerating a little.
Well I've learned both Vietnamese and Mandarin, in that order, and there is nothing more difficult about Vietnamese, they are 差不多。 If anything, Mandarin is harder because you also have to learn the characters.
Finally I have some bad news for you :)
While for other subjects, like my own, programming, having an instructor teaching you "live" or watching video tutorials might not make a big difference (actually the recorded videos might be better because not improvised and better structured..) for language learning a recorded course will NEVER even come CLOSE to the value of interacting live with an instructor...so a live course with a so so instructor will actually be much more useful than a recorded one with a top instructor like you.
I know you want to go the route of pre recorded video classes because it allows you to have an unlimited number of students ( and earnings...) with the same effort, but unfortunately the best way to teach languages is LIVE. I wish you would focus on teaching live intensive courses like for example @PortuguescomMarciaMacedoBR does for Portuguese.