I'm sure you were expecting me to comment on this! The trial I was part of for my V2G charger was CrowdCharge. Apparently the charger itself was worth £4500. (I didn't pay that, I just paid £250 to keep it at the end.) There was a G99 application involved and whilst the hardware is capable of around 32A, it had to be derated to support maximum 16A export, and that also meant a 16A import limit because there is only one limit selector. I'm happy to have been involved with the trial, but in terms of saving money from it, I don't think I have, except where we're looking at strictly apples-to-apples comparisons for Nissan Leaf with normal EVSE vs Leaf with V2G. I'd estimate around £200 per year, and of course there have been some CO2 savings associated with that (helping the grid from 4pm to 7pm mainly), but I could have got a cheaper car that might have been more efficient and saved CO2 that way. It is CHaDeMo and basically restricts me to using a Nissan Leaf. Whilst that's not a bad car, I've had four Leafs and I feel restricted to using Leafs in the future while the charger is still working. When it does go wrong as it will at some point, there is no support from Wallbox for it, and at that point I'm just going to have it replaced with a normal EVSE if things are still as they are at the moment. Then I can look to downsize to a smaller EV. Public transport is getting better in my area and there could even be a time when I go carless. The Wallbox itself has no CT clamp. I've put together a totally heath robinson thing with a Shelly EM to monitor grid power with a CT clamp and I've written some software to read from the Shelly and control the wallbox and emulate V2H. I've open sourced that software; I don't want to self-promote so I won't go into too much detail here. I'm happy to answer questions about my experience. I think you're basically right about V2H but I think we're a long way off such systems becoming the norm.
I've had the Indra V2H/V2G system operating for 4.5 years now. The charger and tech support were free as part of an OVO/Indra project, which Indra took over and are still running. It's a great system from a user point of view, because I can run my house all day from the Car battery and recharge at low cost overnight. Octopus Flux allows me to export around 10Kw each day and make around £40 monthly nett profit. In a way it's a dead end project because it relies on my Mk2 Leaf and it's CHADEMO system plus Indras very good app. One way ahead is as you describe, using AC and handling all conversion in side the vehicles on board inverter.However Indra are still working on the DC versions for CCS and it's not ruled out. A home charge point with a built in inverter could be made for around £2k possibly and will pay for itself in around 3 years for many homes. Advantages include the ability to use any 2025 onwards CCS equipped vehicle and to interface with solar and handle various electricity suppliers export/import schedules.
I think falling battery prices have negated most of the benefits of this type of system. Yes you can run your home all day from the Leaf (unless you actually use it as a car of course) but its likely massive overkill, even the original Leaf has a battery 2x that what most home owners will need. i can run my house all day from a 9kWh battery and that includes me using my car. and with home battery prices falling faster than car prices that gives home batteries an increasing advantage.
I'm just interested in V2H. Have a ASHP but no solar or battery, Am looking to buy my first EV in next few years. 95% of the time the car is in the garage and thought V2H would be a great way of exploiting the big battery to run my home.
This is exactly the summary I wanted. Thank you! I've been considering a home battery, but have held off based on considering V2H . I think I'll go ahead with the home battery as it looks like a cost effective v2H solution is years away, especially as I am invested in existing chargers and the vehicles I already have.
Nice overview. My doctorate is in this subject.... so FYI the electronics is down pat / all OK for decades; it's understood. The major issue is that each country has a bespoke power system adhering to national regulations which are written into law. Plus there will be a handful of national actors with a brief to do XYZ, often written into law or working to a government brief. By definition, these guys are in silos. Thus around the world there are hundreds of silo'd organisations with briefs based on local law... hence, to get unified action / international cooperation, changes to laws are needed in many countries. But governments have other things to do, so this is a very very slow process. Why all this? Electricity is dangerous both from shock and (more likely) from fire, plus of course, damage to equipment which may be worth millions to the local DNO or many k to the householder / EV owner. Will V2X "save the world"? That is, V2X + Smart whatever bring magical relief from costs? Nope.... there is a lot of guff re what can be done with V2G and how it can save billions. Individual actors may benefit, but as a blanket statement V2G cannot fix problems en masse - a conclusion from 7 years work and billions of EV simulations (based on UK and similar EU 50Hz, 230V systems). All good fun!
I have a BYD with V2L. I have sufficient solar panels to be nearly 100% off-grid. I use the car to heat my hot water tank whenever the home batteries are low and solar is unlikely to be enough to fully recharge my home batteries. If the batteries do reach full charge later, then I just use any excess to top up the car again. I'm literally working on how to connect the car directly into my Sol-Ark 15k inverters Generator input, so that in a big emergency it will assist the home batteries with keeping the house going.
@UpsideDownFork Just to clarify I'm working on how to do it. Currently I'm connecting my car into a Smart Load seperate breaker / fuse box and powering the water heater from that. Once I've got the inverter to recognise the car, the same box will feed the generator input.
@@simonpaine2347 Please let me know how this goes. My Sunsynk inverter also has a generator input so i'd be very interested in any developments in this area.
Great video that sums things up well. The rollout will be slow, as most early ev adopters already have a charger. You're unlikely to shell out another grand to replace a perfectly working charger. Though I can imagine in a few years Martin Lewis getting his hands on one of these at some point and creating a tidal wave of new installs when normal people realise how much money they can save.
@@mentality-monster that would be a good result to drive things forward. In theory, replacing an existing charge point for a bidirectional is very simple. Cabling is already there, just swap the consumer unit bits for bidirectional equivalents. Hopefully this will mean it's cheaper but who knows?🤔
The potential of vehicle-to-home (V2H) technology to revolutionize energy consumption is immense. As V2H-enabled vehicles become more prevalent, drivers could access cheaper electricity at their workplaces and utilize it at home. This presents a fantastic opportunity for employers to install solar panels on their roofs and sell excess energy directly to their employees, bypassing grid limitations. Currently, the grid's capacity restricts the amount of electricity that can be fed into it. However, V2H technology offers a way to circumvent this bottleneck by enabling direct energy transfer between workplaces and homes. This could lead to a more decentralized and efficient energy system, reducing reliance on the grid and promoting the use of renewable energy sources.
Most people who have workplace charging pay 20-30p /kWh for it. Tax implications are difficult for companies who don't charge their staff. I see V2X as the best way to stabilise the grid and the other benefits to be minor/secondary.
Definitely on the way, the next Myenergi EV charger will be V2G they are working on it now. The issue is the house will also need a gateway so the house is cut off the grid during a power cut, V2G will be illegal without that.
Thank you for this explanation. I have spent the last 3 months test driving a few electric cars but the salesman will all act like they know nothing about v2x. It's nice to finally get a simple to understand explanation of the V2G issues.
Check out Johannes Hübner's channel. He's been working on using CCS and a hybrid solar inverter to pass DC to the car and back to achieve V2G. Obviously its early days in the project, but its working. Pretty interesting stuff. Using an off the shelf inverter as a test bench not only keeps the development costs affordable it also already has passed regulation to be connected to the grid.
Might be worth exploring the V2H/V2G differences in power use, e.g. V2H will probably need a higher output to the home whereas V2G would probably only need an output of 1/2/3 kW per hour then you can calculate how many "miles" will be used during those periods e.g. 1kWh will mean a loss of 3 or 4 miles per hour. There are still loads of stupid comments out there from the ignorant anti crowd like "waking up in the morning with a completely flat battery" etc
I would guess that your V2G settings will be adjustable and therefore I'd probably go for a constant 1 or 2kw. Slow and steady. Whereas the house could potentially be bouncing all over the place.
@@UpsideDownFork you'll probably be able to set the limit of what can be extracted from the car and that way you can control it. With V2H you'll more than likely want it to be able to power everything so it will draw a lot more from the car in spikes e.g. when you turn the cooker/microwave on.
I know the F-150 Lightning is not sold here, and Ford have cut production - but it seemed interesting, since its aggregate V2L capacity is 9.6kW. I had an interest in retiring somewhere sunnier and being off-grid. If you can utilise that output (maybe even 70% of it) then you can potentially regard the vehicle as the stand-in for having a generator and all its gubbins, and go and buy electricity while doing your shop for groceries in the winter. V2G would seem to me to be a way for power companies to cycle your battery while not paying what they should.
Best and most important video you have produced so far in my view...thank you, I believe the Mobilize charge point in a similar price to current market offerings but that is of course if you buy a R5, in my conversations though Octopus will still not support it
Thank you! It took me a long time to get up to speed on this stuff and to condense the most important points into a presentation, so I'm glad it was worth it.
As you mentioned ac chargepoints are just contactors that connect your car to the grid, so most will only need a software update to communicate with the car for the export side and communicate with the energy supplier for the force export times. They will need bi directional circuit protection aswell. But charge point manufacturers will want to sell you a new unit instead
Good summary and I agree it ain't going to be simple! Good to see Myenergi are at least developing a bidirectional charger. Still not buying a home battery though! P.S. had a Chademo Kia Soul EV and it didn't support bidirectional changing, only the origional Nissan Leafs did.
V2G would be amazing for the grid if the various parties could sort it out but in the meantime home batteries are getting more popular. If you have solar panels anyway then a hybrid inverter isn't that much more than a standard one.
Brilliant research and summary, thank you. I always wondered why v2g chargers were so expensive, now I know 😁 (frustrated Nissan leaf owner with the big battery on the drive 😅😂)
I have always liked the idea of v2h, think it would be the best solution for grid balancing as most people who will have evs will be on a drive and plugged in. Only issues is, if it is discharging and charging a lot it will effect the cycle life on batteries. Only small amounts of of the capacity can still effect the cycle life from videos out their but it's not clear on by how much.
When you think about it, your consumption does follow you to your location. V2G benefits all parties well beyond the home. At work particularly, especially if your building could have solar. Or any car park: supermarket, gym, airport..... Win, win.
I'm not sure I follow? Charge at home and then discharge at work? Doing the other way round also makes little sense, work place chargers are not the cheapest.
@@UpsideDownFork We need to electrify and we need to do it quickly. Some ready-to-go solar farm projects are being quoted 13 years for a grid connection... V2G localised consumption, storage and balancing would help alleviate that issue. Localised generation (government carrot and sticks to get solar onto the roofs of commercial buildings) would provide battery storage and consumption wherever the vehicle is plugged in without straining the grid. We consume energy when we’re at work, we consume it when we get home. The V2G VPP actually moves to where the consumption happens and where the grid needs balancing. Employer can provide free EV charging for the employee with their excess solar (including those who aren’t lucky enough to have home charging) in exchange for access to that storage when the sun doesn’t shine (think Kraken). Employee can even use that energy for V2H when they get home in that dirty evening peak. The government gets to meet its 2030/50 environment targets, the grid is future proofed and the cost of energy for business and individuals trends to zero (looking at you Tony Seba). But as you describe, there’s a lot of ducks to get in a row for V2G to be a meaningful thing, but take a few steps back, find a switched-on government minister and V2G could help save the planet, the economy and our pockets all at the same time. I have a dream… ;)
Weather the inverter/charger is in the car or the house we are paying for it one way or another. If it is in the car then you are carrying around the extra weight, but in theory you can carry a low charge rate cable with you and charge anywhere, and use fast chargers, if the vehicle charger fails then you are stuck until it is repaired. But if it is in the house you could potentially go elsewhere and charge. DC to the house means that the house kit sorts out the paper work and the regulations for connection. But what ever happens it needs a standard that everyone adheres to. V2G could if everyone was on the same sheet lower the need for gas generation but it system needs to know when you will be needing the vehicle and leave an emergency amount in the vehicle. But as you stated, quite a lot are now fitting home storage so negating the benefits to either party. The way I see it their are pros and cons either way.
V2G has so many advantages that it’s bound to come soon. We just need solar hybrid inverters that know how to use a car as a part of their network. That’s really all it needs because they already have everything else it needs.
It's been brought to my attention that there is the possibility of V2L vehicles connecting through the aux/generator input that many hybrid inverters already have. Interesting avenue for me to explore!
@ that would rely on the car’s v2l inverter circuitry to do the work though. I think most of those are quite low power. I would like to get the full dc current handling of the dc charging circuits to work and let the solar inverter be the limiting factor. The beauty of the car battery is its huge energy storage and its huge current capacity, and the great thing about the solar inverter is that it can be as big and heavy as it likes.
@@dominicgoodwin1147 True, but it's a solution for right now. My Sunsynk inverter is compatible. Some V2L vehicles are rated at 3.6kW and there are off the shelf cables that can be used. Some people have actually tricked the MG4 to output 7kW through V2L.
I see the benefit of V2L for people who like to tailgate, or working at remote locations with electric tools. I see the benefit of V2H if you can charge at a low cost and release when the cost would be higher, thus lowering your overall home electricity bill. But you still want charge in that vehicle when it's time to drive, and you lose some energy through resistance every time you move it around. Also if there's a powercut (rare in my area but can happen) and you don't have a backup (e.g. solar panels, gas generator) then this might tide you over for a bit. I don't see electricity companies allowing masses of people to charge their batteries at low cost, and then sell back to the grid at a higher cost. That just doesn't make economic sense for them. Plus every time you move that energy you lose some, you're adding adding wear to the battery. I can see energy companies pushing this and then shafting the consumer when it gets too costly for the company, by changing their terms and conditions.
I really can't see V2G becoming universally normal for a long time to come, it's a lot of expensive hardware and software with potentially diminishing returns for the home/car owner, maybe for large fleet operators with a fixed work pattern it will be of more interest. Even V2H still has a limited market, I don't think it's widely acknowledged just how many people are blocked from having a cheap overnight tariff due to lack of a working smart meter.
Interesting video that contained some usefull information, but I could not see a convinving argument for vtx taking years to become.popular, apart from vagaries about potential red tape
@@fixeroftheinternet thanks for the comment. It's speculation based on some insider info that's been passed on to me but also based on what we've seen historically over the last few years. The technical capability has been with us for at least 5 years, but we are inching so slowly towards standardisation. Just my opinion, you're welcome to disregard it.
Behind the meter Equipment integration is a challenge but most new EVs are a firmware update away from VtG. IMO, the real challenge is with the DNO, the roll out of their ADMS/DERMS takea time and every change needs to be tested thoroughly. Saying that, the UK is in the pole position in this respect, so we might see non-DC VtG before 5 years.
@@rrlabastida fingers crossed. I'm hoping for a G98 approved bidirectional AC charge point that will be connect and notify just like a current solar inverter is 👍
Great video, thanks for posting. My main reason for using V2L or V2H would be to keep my central heating running in a power cut (50 watts). As an interim solution for emergency back up would the following work ? Using a plug in hybrid with V2L, like the MG HS , to charge a Bluetti power pack (2kWh). Then get the Bluetti to charge the home battery. The PHEV could then recharge the car battery and run the cycle again and keep the house CH running as long as there's petrol in the tank. The home battery (15 kWh) would back up the CH initially for about 5 days and then the PHEV and bluetti/inverter/home battery for say a further month, worst case. Would this work, with the appropriate earthing and changeover switch of course. I suppose the main question is, can a Bluetti (DC) be connected/disconnected to and from a home battery system safely.
@@UpsideDownFork Yip, I know, about a week. But, ah but , what if the power cut happens at 9pm, with the battery depleted to say 5% prior to night time charge ? Then the PHEV,/Bluetti/Home battery steps in. I'm kind of more interested in the feasibility of doing it.
EVE lf280s are discounted heavily now, you can get 14.5kwh cells for < €1000 (€69/kwh), bms/case would add another €500. But this battery wont drive off for the day just when you need it or your house wont drain the car when you want to drive. With v2h, car batteries will get bigger, more expensive and cars less efficient. I prefer the philosophy of the original ioniq, modest battery with high efficiency. ESS batteries can be cheaper, they can have much lower energy density. It makes sense to separate them.
In the UK no chance V2H could be usefully in countries where grid reliability is poor it could be useful. I have 15 kWh of home storage it makes me a bit of money in savings sessions but most of the time I'll be charging one of my two EVs
I wonder what the leasing companies take on it is ? You are effectively putting wear on the car thats not reflected in the mileage limits. They may be yet another party to the discussion.
I can't think of a worse way to 'help' the grid! The grid controller can never be sure how much power they will get this way, so one more variable on a grid with so many other variables from so much asynchronous inputs. As for consumers, the vehicle owner buys at commercial rates of electrcicity so must resell at a higher price to make it worth while so adding to the overall cost to the average consumer. It is also inefficient and adds yet more unwanted harmonics from the inverters onto the system. It most certainly is not the future.
Would be good if homes could be self sufficient throughout the 4-7pm period? Agree on your points though. On the surface it has much promise, but dig a little deeper and there are many challenges.
@@UpsideDownFork If we had a reliable and economic grid you would not even ask that question. Reality is we don't have such a grid and it is a reflection on how badly our politicians (on all sides of the house) have failed us. It is up to the individual if they feel the need and can justify the cost?
I did some tentative research myself a while back, but not as exhaustive as yours 👏👍 Too many this they'll be charging for cheap, and paying off their EV's thanks to export payments lol. Agree V2H both more likely and therefore beneficial. As I'm not planning to get rid of our diesels for another 3-5 years, hopefully it'll all come together nicely timing wise 😊
Nice overview I thought youd be even more dismissive of the idea or at least the practicalities and costs. Why pay an extra (at a guess) 5k for the car and charger setup to do this when you can get a home battery right now for that sort of price and its always there its not going off to work or Tesco (other supermarkets also available). V2G also would need very sophisticated software to deal with local load balancing, and i doubt the infrastructure is in place for that. At least, as you say, V2H is much simpler to implement and understand but of course its entirely negated if you have the temerity to use your car and with the ever falling prices of batteries having a stationary home battery thats always there simplifies a lot of potential issues, which makes it cheaper as well.
Electricity prices have dropped so it stands to reason that export prices drop. BUT export prices have dropped substantially more, especially on Flux. Why, I've no idea, I could guess that it's just greed, but that is a guess.
@@TheRonskiman Wait a minute electricity prices went up in October, don’t understand when you said they have gone down , still got the letter that says prices will being going up .
@KavanOBrien Yes they did, not by much, I'm on the Flux tariff, have been since April 2023, Every time import prices drop export prices drop by a bigger percentage, when import prices rise, export price rise by a smaller percentage. On Flux the export prices are slowly but surely being eroded.
@@TheRonskiman OK , one would think that exporting electricity would be more cost effective than a turbine, curious to know how much one turbine cost to make erected and maintained throughout its lifetime because we all know they have a lifespan compare that for the overall cost , now see how many households you could install solar and batteries obviously see how many one could not only get for the same price but also with what’s needed to generate the same amount of electricity to the grid , I don’t really understand why that scenario hasn’t been looked at , so let’s say the government gave you the money for a turbine, same amount of money to me for solar , I wonder how many households I could give free solar and batteries, would be curious if we were both given a direction of how much electricity we would need to generate for the grant given ,
For the best explanations, look at countries that no longer get paid for export, we are on track to become one of those nations in the next decade or so, perhaps seasonal exporting in the meanwhile. Paid for winter solar export when it's more needed and not paid for summer export when there's an excess.
I watched this a while back covering the difficulties with and how you might monitor the state of health of a car battery that has been used for V2X: ua-cam.com/video/vBIDNrJ6ytg/v-deo.html
There is nothing complicated about a V2G hardware. Just think about it, ANY hybrid solar inverter would work. Just tie the CCS into the solar inputs of the invrter.
I'm sure you were expecting me to comment on this!
The trial I was part of for my V2G charger was CrowdCharge. Apparently the charger itself was worth £4500. (I didn't pay that, I just paid £250 to keep it at the end.) There was a G99 application involved and whilst the hardware is capable of around 32A, it had to be derated to support maximum 16A export, and that also meant a 16A import limit because there is only one limit selector.
I'm happy to have been involved with the trial, but in terms of saving money from it, I don't think I have, except where we're looking at strictly apples-to-apples comparisons for Nissan Leaf with normal EVSE vs Leaf with V2G. I'd estimate around £200 per year, and of course there have been some CO2 savings associated with that (helping the grid from 4pm to 7pm mainly), but I could have got a cheaper car that might have been more efficient and saved CO2 that way. It is CHaDeMo and basically restricts me to using a Nissan Leaf. Whilst that's not a bad car, I've had four Leafs and I feel restricted to using Leafs in the future while the charger is still working. When it does go wrong as it will at some point, there is no support from Wallbox for it, and at that point I'm just going to have it replaced with a normal EVSE if things are still as they are at the moment. Then I can look to downsize to a smaller EV. Public transport is getting better in my area and there could even be a time when I go carless.
The Wallbox itself has no CT clamp. I've put together a totally heath robinson thing with a Shelly EM to monitor grid power with a CT clamp and I've written some software to read from the Shelly and control the wallbox and emulate V2H. I've open sourced that software; I don't want to self-promote so I won't go into too much detail here.
I'm happy to answer questions about my experience. I think you're basically right about V2H but I think we're a long way off such systems becoming the norm.
Thanks for sharing your real world experience and perspective!
I've had the Indra V2H/V2G system operating for 4.5 years now. The charger and tech support were free as part of an OVO/Indra project, which Indra took over and are still running. It's a great system from a user point of view, because I can run my house all day from the Car battery and recharge at low cost overnight. Octopus Flux allows me to export around 10Kw each day and make around £40 monthly nett profit.
In a way it's a dead end project because it relies on my Mk2 Leaf and it's CHADEMO system plus Indras very good app. One way ahead is as you describe, using AC and handling all conversion in side the vehicles on board inverter.However Indra are still working on the DC versions for CCS and it's not ruled out. A home charge point with a built in inverter could be made for around £2k possibly and will pay for itself in around 3 years for many homes. Advantages include the ability to use any 2025 onwards CCS equipped vehicle and to interface with solar and handle various electricity suppliers export/import schedules.
I think falling battery prices have negated most of the benefits of this type of system. Yes you can run your home all day from the Leaf (unless you actually use it as a car of course) but its likely massive overkill, even the original Leaf has a battery 2x that what most home owners will need. i can run my house all day from a 9kWh battery and that includes me using my car. and with home battery prices falling faster than car prices that gives home batteries an increasing advantage.
Thanks for sharing your real world experience and perspective!
Do you know when this v2g chargers are going to be available i have 2 Nissan Leaf s and would like to use one of the cars as a battery storage system
@PiperDam-c6y Chademo is dead. You will not be able to buy a new charger but may get lucky with a used one if you join the Facebook group 👍
@@PiperDam-c6y I think it would be cheaper and much more space efficient to sell the car and buy a battery
I'm just interested in V2H. Have a ASHP but no solar or battery, Am looking to buy my first EV in next few years. 95% of the time the car is in the garage and thought V2H would be a great way of exploiting the big battery to run my home.
@@bryanhindle8307 keep your fingers crossed!
Yep makes sense if the car is sat doing nowt - a small fixed battery and big lump sat in the car for the extra…
This is exactly the summary I wanted. Thank you!
I've been considering a home battery, but have held off based on considering V2H . I think I'll go ahead with the home battery as it looks like a cost effective v2H solution is years away, especially as I am invested in existing chargers and the vehicles I already have.
Glad I could help.
Hopefully it's something to consider again in a few years.
Nice overview. My doctorate is in this subject.... so FYI the electronics is down pat / all OK for decades; it's understood. The major issue is that each country has a bespoke power system adhering to national regulations which are written into law. Plus there will be a handful of national actors with a brief to do XYZ, often written into law or working to a government brief. By definition, these guys are in silos. Thus around the world there are hundreds of silo'd organisations with briefs based on local law... hence, to get unified action / international cooperation, changes to laws are needed in many countries. But governments have other things to do, so this is a very very slow process.
Why all this? Electricity is dangerous both from shock and (more likely) from fire, plus of course, damage to equipment which may be worth millions to the local DNO or many k to the householder / EV owner.
Will V2X "save the world"? That is, V2X + Smart whatever bring magical relief from costs? Nope.... there is a lot of guff re what can be done with V2G and how it can save billions. Individual actors may benefit, but as a blanket statement V2G cannot fix problems en masse - a conclusion from 7 years work and billions of EV simulations (based on UK and similar EU 50Hz, 230V systems). All good fun!
Thanks for commenting! There is so much more to the technical side that I didn't touch on and you've highlighted a very important aspect.
I have a BYD with V2L. I have sufficient solar panels to be nearly 100% off-grid. I use the car to heat my hot water tank whenever the home batteries are low and solar is unlikely to be enough to fully recharge my home batteries. If the batteries do reach full charge later, then I just use any excess to top up the car again. I'm literally working on how to connect the car directly into my Sol-Ark 15k inverters Generator input, so that in a big emergency it will assist the home batteries with keeping the house going.
Interesting that your V2L works with generator input!
@UpsideDownFork Just to clarify I'm working on how to do it. Currently I'm connecting my car into a Smart Load seperate breaker / fuse box and powering the water heater from that. Once I've got the inverter to recognise the car, the same box will feed the generator input.
@@simonpaine2347 Please let me know how this goes. My Sunsynk inverter also has a generator input so i'd be very interested in any developments in this area.
Great video that sums things up well. The rollout will be slow, as most early ev adopters already have a charger. You're unlikely to shell out another grand to replace a perfectly working charger.
Though I can imagine in a few years Martin Lewis getting his hands on one of these at some point and creating a tidal wave of new installs when normal people realise how much money they can save.
@@mentality-monster that would be a good result to drive things forward.
In theory, replacing an existing charge point for a bidirectional is very simple. Cabling is already there, just swap the consumer unit bits for bidirectional equivalents.
Hopefully this will mean it's cheaper but who knows?🤔
The potential of vehicle-to-home (V2H) technology to revolutionize energy consumption is immense. As V2H-enabled vehicles become more prevalent, drivers could access cheaper electricity at their workplaces and utilize it at home. This presents a fantastic opportunity for employers to install solar panels on their roofs and sell excess energy directly to their employees, bypassing grid limitations.
Currently, the grid's capacity restricts the amount of electricity that can be fed into it. However, V2H technology offers a way to circumvent this bottleneck by enabling direct energy transfer between workplaces and homes. This could lead to a more decentralized and efficient energy system, reducing reliance on the grid and promoting the use of renewable energy sources.
Most people who have workplace charging pay 20-30p /kWh for it.
Tax implications are difficult for companies who don't charge their staff.
I see V2X as the best way to stabilise the grid and the other benefits to be minor/secondary.
Great overview of the technologies and timelines avoiding all the usual hype around this area
@@briangkehoe thanks for commenting 👍
V2H baby! That's the one I really want! 😁
@@catalinomocea6986 fingers crossed 🤞
Definitely on the way, the next Myenergi EV charger will be V2G they are working on it now. The issue is the house will also need a gateway so the house is cut off the grid during a power cut, V2G will be illegal without that.
Yep, exactly the same regulations as we currently have with home storage batteries.
Thank you for this explanation. I have spent the last 3 months test driving a few electric cars but the salesman will all act like they know nothing about v2x.
It's nice to finally get a simple to understand explanation of the V2G issues.
@@SteveMoore1969 thanks for commenting 👍
I’m taking credit for this video 😂
@@ciaranclose192 so you're the one to blame! 😁
Check out Johannes Hübner's channel. He's been working on using CCS and a hybrid solar inverter to pass DC to the car and back to achieve V2G. Obviously its early days in the project, but its working. Pretty interesting stuff.
Using an off the shelf inverter as a test bench not only keeps the development costs affordable it also already has passed regulation to be connected to the grid.
Yep, I've been following along there too!
I think I understood this on a superficial level. I shall watch it again to deepen my understanding.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Might be worth exploring the V2H/V2G differences in power use, e.g. V2H will probably need a higher output to the home whereas V2G would probably only need an output of 1/2/3 kW per hour then you can calculate how many "miles" will be used during those periods e.g. 1kWh will mean a loss of 3 or 4 miles per hour. There are still loads of stupid comments out there from the ignorant anti crowd like "waking up in the morning with a completely flat battery" etc
@@rtfazeberdee3519 what am I missing? Why would V2G use less than V2H?
I would guess that your V2G settings will be adjustable and therefore I'd probably go for a constant 1 or 2kw. Slow and steady. Whereas the house could potentially be bouncing all over the place.
@@UpsideDownFork you'll probably be able to set the limit of what can be extracted from the car and that way you can control it. With V2H you'll more than likely want it to be able to power everything so it will draw a lot more from the car in spikes e.g. when you turn the cooker/microwave on.
Please keep up the good work all will be well in the near future
Thanks 👍
I know the F-150 Lightning is not sold here, and Ford have cut production - but it seemed interesting, since its aggregate V2L capacity is 9.6kW. I had an interest in retiring somewhere sunnier and being off-grid. If you can utilise that output (maybe even 70% of it) then you can potentially regard the vehicle as the stand-in for having a generator and all its gubbins, and go and buy electricity while doing your shop for groceries in the winter. V2G would seem to me to be a way for power companies to cycle your battery while not paying what they should.
@@jamesmansion2572 I had a close look at these whilst in the states recently. Those and Rivians were fairly common sight in California. 👍
Best and most important video you have produced so far in my view...thank you, I believe the Mobilize charge point in a similar price to current market offerings but that is of course if you buy a R5, in my conversations though Octopus will still not support it
Thank you! It took me a long time to get up to speed on this stuff and to condense the most important points into a presentation, so I'm glad it was worth it.
V2G would be nice, but my priority is V2H . I am holding off changing my EVs ( I have two) until there is better clarity on this.
Thanks for commenting!
As you mentioned ac chargepoints are just contactors that connect your car to the grid, so most will only need a software update to communicate with the car for the export side and communicate with the energy supplier for the force export times. They will need bi directional circuit protection aswell. But charge point manufacturers will want to sell you a new unit instead
@@stuartevans6807 indeed!
Nice video and well thought out
@@adamdevine7375 thank you 😊
Good summary and I agree it ain't going to be simple! Good to see Myenergi are at least developing a bidirectional charger. Still not buying a home battery though! P.S. had a Chademo Kia Soul EV and it didn't support bidirectional changing, only the origional Nissan Leafs did.
Ah, thanks for sharing that!
V2G would be amazing for the grid if the various parties could sort it out but in the meantime home batteries are getting more popular. If you have solar panels anyway then a hybrid inverter isn't that much more than a standard one.
Bang on!
An excellent video. I learnt quite a bit. 🙏
Glad it was helpful!
Brilliant research and summary, thank you. I always wondered why v2g chargers were so expensive, now I know 😁 (frustrated Nissan leaf owner with the big battery on the drive 😅😂)
Glad it was helpful!
Very interesting! :)
Glad you think so!
I have always liked the idea of v2h, think it would be the best solution for grid balancing as most people who will have evs will be on a drive and plugged in.
Only issues is, if it is discharging and charging a lot it will effect the cycle life on batteries. Only small amounts of of the capacity can still effect the cycle life from videos out their but it's not clear on by how much.
@@Sean_S1000 the effects on battery life are very minimal. There is already some good data from the Leaf owners that were on trial. 👍
@UpsideDownFork that's good to hear, would be nice to have 50-60 kwh of storage on the drive, specially for those who live rurally
Excellent
@@paulkearsley9509 thank you!
According to Enphase, 25/26 seems very likely. Can’t wait to install to supplement my solar only setup one day.
To clarify that’s for their three phase charger ❤
We'll see...
When you think about it, your consumption does follow you to your location. V2G benefits all parties well beyond the home. At work particularly, especially if your building could have solar. Or any car park: supermarket, gym, airport..... Win, win.
I'm not sure I follow? Charge at home and then discharge at work?
Doing the other way round also makes little sense, work place chargers are not the cheapest.
@@UpsideDownFork We need to electrify and we need to do it quickly. Some ready-to-go solar farm projects are being quoted 13 years for a grid connection... V2G localised consumption, storage and balancing would help alleviate that issue. Localised generation (government carrot and sticks to get solar onto the roofs of commercial buildings) would provide battery storage and consumption wherever the vehicle is plugged in without straining the grid. We consume energy when we’re at work, we consume it when we get home. The V2G VPP actually moves to where the consumption happens and where the grid needs balancing.
Employer can provide free EV charging for the employee with their excess solar (including those who aren’t lucky enough to have home charging) in exchange for access to that storage when the sun doesn’t shine (think Kraken). Employee can even use that energy for V2H when they get home in that dirty evening peak.
The government gets to meet its 2030/50 environment targets, the grid is future proofed and the cost of energy for business and individuals trends to zero (looking at you Tony Seba).
But as you describe, there’s a lot of ducks to get in a row for V2G to be a meaningful thing, but take a few steps back, find a switched-on government minister and V2G could help save the planet, the economy and our pockets all at the same time.
I have a dream… ;)
Weather the inverter/charger is in the car or the house we are paying for it one way or another.
If it is in the car then you are carrying around the extra weight, but in theory you can carry a low charge rate cable with you and charge anywhere, and use fast chargers, if the vehicle charger fails then you are stuck until it is repaired. But if it is in the house you could potentially go elsewhere and charge.
DC to the house means that the house kit sorts out the paper work and the regulations for connection.
But what ever happens it needs a standard that everyone adheres to.
V2G could if everyone was on the same sheet lower the need for gas generation but it system needs to know when you will be needing the vehicle and leave an emergency amount in the vehicle.
But as you stated, quite a lot are now fitting home storage so negating the benefits to either party.
The way I see it their are pros and cons either way.
Thanks for commenting!
V2G has so many advantages that it’s bound to come soon. We just need solar hybrid inverters that know how to use a car as a part of their network. That’s really all it needs because they already have everything else it needs.
It's been brought to my attention that there is the possibility of V2L vehicles connecting through the aux/generator input that many hybrid inverters already have. Interesting avenue for me to explore!
@ that would rely on the car’s v2l inverter circuitry to do the work though. I think most of those are quite low power. I would like to get the full dc current handling of the dc charging circuits to work and let the solar inverter be the limiting factor. The beauty of the car battery is its huge energy storage and its huge current capacity, and the great thing about the solar inverter is that it can be as big and heavy as it likes.
@@dominicgoodwin1147 True, but it's a solution for right now. My Sunsynk inverter is compatible. Some V2L vehicles are rated at 3.6kW and there are off the shelf cables that can be used.
Some people have actually tricked the MG4 to output 7kW through V2L.
Nice video, but you're export tariff spreadsheet was in the wrong decade surely 😂
@@TheRonskiman 😂 I was in a rush, it was to demonstrate a point.
The 'bongs' at 6:20 were rather confusing!
Sorry, total amateur here!!
I see the benefit of V2L for people who like to tailgate, or working at remote locations with electric tools.
I see the benefit of V2H if you can charge at a low cost and release when the cost would be higher, thus lowering your overall home electricity bill. But you still want charge in that vehicle when it's time to drive, and you lose some energy through resistance every time you move it around.
Also if there's a powercut (rare in my area but can happen) and you don't have a backup (e.g. solar panels, gas generator) then this might tide you over for a bit.
I don't see electricity companies allowing masses of people to charge their batteries at low cost, and then sell back to the grid at a higher cost. That just doesn't make economic sense for them.
Plus every time you move that energy you lose some, you're adding adding wear to the battery.
I can see energy companies pushing this and then shafting the consumer when it gets too costly for the company, by changing their terms and conditions.
Good points!
I really can't see V2G becoming universally normal for a long time to come, it's a lot of expensive hardware and software with potentially diminishing returns for the home/car owner, maybe for large fleet operators with a fixed work pattern it will be of more interest.
Even V2H still has a limited market, I don't think it's widely acknowledged just how many people are blocked from having a cheap overnight tariff due to lack of a working smart meter.
Yep, lots of hurdles but I'm hopeful that those who currently have EVs and home charging will be migrating to V2H within the next 5 years.🤞
Interesting video that contained some usefull information, but I could not see a convinving argument for vtx taking years to become.popular, apart from vagaries about potential red tape
@@fixeroftheinternet thanks for the comment. It's speculation based on some insider info that's been passed on to me but also based on what we've seen historically over the last few years.
The technical capability has been with us for at least 5 years, but we are inching so slowly towards standardisation.
Just my opinion, you're welcome to disregard it.
Behind the meter Equipment integration is a challenge but most new EVs are a firmware update away from VtG. IMO, the real challenge is with the DNO, the roll out of their ADMS/DERMS takea time and every change needs to be tested thoroughly. Saying that, the UK is in the pole position in this respect, so we might see non-DC VtG before 5 years.
@@rrlabastida fingers crossed.
I'm hoping for a G98 approved bidirectional AC charge point that will be connect and notify just like a current solar inverter is 👍
Great video, thanks for posting.
My main reason for using V2L or V2H would be to keep my central heating running in a power cut (50 watts).
As an interim solution for emergency back up would the following work ? Using a plug in hybrid with V2L, like the MG HS , to charge a Bluetti power pack (2kWh). Then get the Bluetti to charge the home battery. The PHEV could then recharge the car battery and run the cycle again and keep the house CH running as long as there's petrol in the tank.
The home battery (15 kWh) would back up the CH initially for about 5 days and then the PHEV and bluetti/inverter/home battery for say a further month, worst case.
Would this work, with the appropriate earthing and changeover switch of course. I suppose the main question is, can a Bluetti (DC) be connected/disconnected to and from a home battery system safely.
Seems like a convoluted solution.
A home storage battery will keep 50 watts going for a very long time.
@@UpsideDownFork Yip, I know, about a week. But, ah but , what if the power cut happens at 9pm, with the battery depleted to say 5% prior to night time charge ?
Then the PHEV,/Bluetti/Home battery steps in. I'm kind of more interested in the feasibility of doing it.
EVE lf280s are discounted heavily now, you can get 14.5kwh cells for < €1000 (€69/kwh), bms/case would add another €500. But this battery wont drive off for the day just when you need it or your house wont drain the car when you want to drive. With v2h, car batteries will get bigger, more expensive and cars less efficient. I prefer the philosophy of the original ioniq, modest battery with high efficiency. ESS batteries can be cheaper, they can have much lower energy density. It makes sense to separate them.
Thanks for commenting!
I think you will need to update this video each year for the next 5 years - as you say its coming but when.
You're probably right 👍
In the UK no chance V2H could be usefully in countries where grid reliability is poor it could be useful. I have 15 kWh of home storage it makes me a bit of money in savings sessions but most of the time I'll be charging one of my two EVs
Thanks for commenting!
What happens if I make a cable up with a plug at each end. One plugs into a kia ev5 adapter and one into a wall socket in my garage.
I don't think anything will happen. The V2L protections in the EV6 will prevent any power output to a grid tied system.
I wonder what the leasing companies take on it is ? You are effectively putting wear on the car thats not reflected in the mileage limits. They may be yet another party to the discussion.
Thanks for commenting.
Virtually no wear compared to driving.
Very low loads and minimal cycling.
V2G is happening in OZ 😊😊😊
I followed that announcement with interest. A few big companies on board. I'll be curious to see the speed of rollout!
I can't think of a worse way to 'help' the grid!
The grid controller can never be sure how much power they will get this way, so one more variable on a grid with so many other variables from so much asynchronous inputs.
As for consumers, the vehicle owner buys at commercial rates of electrcicity so must resell at a higher price to make it worth while so adding to the overall cost to the average consumer.
It is also inefficient and adds yet more unwanted harmonics from the inverters onto the system.
It most certainly is not the future.
Would be good if homes could be self sufficient throughout the 4-7pm period?
Agree on your points though.
On the surface it has much promise, but dig a little deeper and there are many challenges.
@@UpsideDownFork
If we had a reliable and economic grid you would not even ask that question. Reality is we don't have such a grid and it is a reflection on how badly our politicians (on all sides of the house) have failed us.
It is up to the individual if they feel the need and can justify the cost?
I did some tentative research myself a while back, but not as exhaustive as yours 👏👍
Too many this they'll be charging for cheap, and paying off their EV's thanks to export payments lol.
Agree V2H both more likely and therefore beneficial.
As I'm not planning to get rid of our diesels for another 3-5 years, hopefully it'll all come together nicely timing wise 😊
Fingers crossed 🤞
Nice overview I thought youd be even more dismissive of the idea or at least the practicalities and costs. Why pay an extra (at a guess) 5k for the car and charger setup to do this when you can get a home battery right now for that sort of price and its always there its not going off to work or Tesco (other supermarkets also available).
V2G also would need very sophisticated software to deal with local load balancing, and i doubt the infrastructure is in place for that. At least, as you say, V2H is much simpler to implement and understand but of course its entirely negated if you have the temerity to use your car and with the ever falling prices of batteries having a stationary home battery thats always there simplifies a lot of potential issues, which makes it cheaper as well.
Thanks. I tried to be a bit more balanced with this than my usual unhinged self!
Why is the export tariff going down ?
Electricity prices have dropped so it stands to reason that export prices drop. BUT export prices have dropped substantially more, especially on Flux. Why, I've no idea, I could guess that it's just greed, but that is a guess.
@@TheRonskiman Wait a minute electricity prices went up in October, don’t understand when you said they have gone down , still got the letter that says prices will being going up .
@KavanOBrien Yes they did, not by much, I'm on the Flux tariff, have been since April 2023, Every time import prices drop export prices drop by a bigger percentage, when import prices rise, export price rise by a smaller percentage. On Flux the export prices are slowly but surely being eroded.
@@TheRonskiman OK , one would think that exporting electricity would be more cost effective than a turbine, curious to know how much one turbine cost to make erected and maintained throughout its lifetime because we all know they have a lifespan compare that for the overall cost , now see how many households you could install solar and batteries obviously see how many one could not only get for the same price but also with what’s needed to generate the same amount of electricity to the grid , I don’t really understand why that scenario hasn’t been looked at , so let’s say the government gave you the money for a turbine, same amount of money to me for solar , I wonder how many households I could give free solar and batteries, would be curious if we were both given a direction of how much electricity we would need to generate for the grant given ,
For the best explanations, look at countries that no longer get paid for export, we are on track to become one of those nations in the next decade or so, perhaps seasonal exporting in the meanwhile. Paid for winter solar export when it's more needed and not paid for summer export when there's an excess.
I watched this a while back covering the difficulties with and how you might monitor the state of health of a car battery that has been used for V2X:
ua-cam.com/video/vBIDNrJ6ytg/v-deo.html
Great video! I shared it on the channel when it was fresh.
Check here V2G
ua-cam.com/video/g59f1Ff4U0U/v-deo.htmlsi=O3RxGnho1_p2_4Od
Thanks for commenting
You think 5+ years? Depressing
Hoping it will be 2-3 years!
There is nothing complicated about a V2G hardware. Just think about it, ANY hybrid solar inverter would work. Just tie the CCS into the solar inputs of the invrter.
Have you done this?
Yes, the tricky thing is the software, some cars also want to see a pre-charge voltage.
🇨🇳china produced 1.5 billion solar panels this year 😮
Crazy quantities.