THE TROUBLE WITH OLD MODEL STEAM ENGINES
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- / keithappleton
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The Trouble With Old Model Steam Engines - This video highlights some of the many problems with old badly made model steam engines.
I'm an electronics guy and know nothing about engines, this was still fascinating for me, I'd love to learn more about these engines and moving parts in general
"So just bear with me while I remove the bearings."
Nice one.
This voice with this content just fits so perfectly
yeah he sounds liek the original thomas the tank engine ringo star narration
"Bear with me while I remove the bearings" had me in floods of tears! Priceless!!
You actually might scare people away from buying on the auction site. That is a good thing because prices may then actually become closer to my very small budget!
Buying from online auction sites is OK if you know what to look for . . .
But....be warned it's still kind of "sight un-seen", even though there are photograph(s) representations.
yea different color paint jobs means junk hahaha
very good video. !
Prices will go up when these Chinese manufacturers stop cutting corners to make artificially cheap engines.
I just love the contributions Keith has made for us steam nuts. His comment on this vid about reckless paint application indicating a bodged up job is all too true. I just bought a very early Stuart 10H on-line because it had the boxbed I needed for another very early 10H in my collection. The model had being painted by someone on LSD and sure enough, on disassembly, there was no steam slide valve. Oh well, I got my early (unavailable) boxbed.
What an excellent video of model engineering, it’s a great shame that this sort of engineering is no longer practiced. It starts in the class room early. When all the engineers have gone to the engine house in the sky it will be a great loss. Long live the real engineers. Gordon.
The care and love you show for (in this case) metal craftmanship I find inspiring, Keith.
Nice video, Mr. Appleton. I´m 57. When I was 13 receive a gift from an old german friend of my family: an steam engine (one cylinder) basculating piston. Today is a ornament in my living room. Regards from Mendoza, Argentina.
I don't know why I'm watching this or how I got here but... Nice Video
Same with me but I'll give him a couple of bucks for that cool steam engine that he's calling junk!! He needs to put it back together for me tho heheheh
This is old school engineering at its finest... well at least the mechanic working on it, which is unfortunately a dying breed. It's fascinating to watch someone who knows their stuff. :)
Thanks for making this comment so i don't have to.
*It was based on your Google Trace & Likes, same way I Got here !*
*Turn it off if you wish in Options/Settings*
Me too!
I love these old engines I built several of them back in 1966-73. They are very difficult to do and you must take your time and build them right no cutting corners. Otherwise you see what you get junk. I wish I could afford to buy a Stuart beam engine that was my favorite one. I used them as part of my engineering program for school. Blew the teachers away that I understood how they worked and that I made them and my own drafting work and report paper on the engines. Even the principal gave me a certificate at the end of the year for my hard work. I was crazy for Me. / Mfg. engineering. I wanted to build a Shay logger engine that ran on steam but couldn’t find the plans or funds to do it.
I risked machining my D10 crank from solid as a test of myself, and it was very hard but very satisfying. Pages and pages of conversions from fractional imperial to decimal imperial, and shedloads of panicking.
Luckily I got it all within spec first time, but a bit of a scratchy finish on the centre bearing surface, so not perfect. I plan to take it a few thou undersize to get the surface finish ok. Overall I am very pleased. Until you have one of these cranks in your hand it is hard to visualise how delicate they are when un supported by bearings! I think a loud sparrow fart in the garden would bend it.
I am now constructing a drill rod/ silver steel jig to perfectly align/ position the crank bearings with the cross heads, and then do something with taper pins to make the position repeatable. Every part of my milling machine is positioned with taper pins, then bolted...they used to do it properly in the olden days.
years ago when I was in my 20's, an old foreman I was working for told me one day " there's never enough time to do a job right the first time, but there's always enough time to do it over". nice vid
how true...
exactly
jerry umfress
As a head of the QC QA department in a machine shop, that is the case... But to a point. .
When the machinist find out that they can not slip non conforming dimensions past QC, and they have to do it over, they become more meticulous. And the QC dept works itself out of a job. The plug and play reputation goes way up. And the customer is willing to pay more for it. After 13 years, they closed the QC dept. I do not know if they still have the same plug and play reputation.
steve gale
The place I worked, I would generate a QC report on each part. Every dimension would be measured and recorded. When I found a non conforming feature, I would go to the machinist and say something like, I must have made a mistake, I am not getting the right number here. And then they would remeasure, and either fix it, or ask the engineer to either sign off on it, or the engineer would call the customer for his ok...
But a copy of the QC report would be sent with the part to the customer.
In the 13 years , I filled 5 , five drawer filling cabinets with QC documents.
Most all of the problems came from the customer sending us the wrong prints, or prints that were not drawn correctly.
steve gale
I hear you,,, the point I was trying to make was quality control. And I was trying to state that the time spent making it right the first time will be worth it with a greater reputation.
Speed comes with knowing how to do it right.
But although we did some production work, most of what we did was custom, one of a kind, reverse engineered.
Most of the dimensions were + or - 5 thousandths of an inch. We did make gauging to 50 millionths.
But alas,, when working for yourself, on your own projects, you only have to satisfy yourself, .
And that is all about attitude ,and pride, and expectation.
Interesting and somewhat amusing video. I recently got into model steam engines, when I had to make one from scratch to get my machinist papers, and I did some research on youtube which is probably why this video was on my recommendations.
Now there a machinist that has seen it all , Thanks for your demonstration about what NOT to do if your a backyard mechanic trying to turn scrap into anything much better than scrap. For a novice to try to make this work even 10 percent better than it was is nothing but wasted time, aggravation and money down the drain at the end of the job.
Interesting observation that poorly designed engines typically have their little "fiddly bits" painted a different color. I propose the reason for this is because the builder/designer/engineer of said engine was more concerned with how the thing _looked_ rather than how it _performed._ There is certainly nothing wrong with aesthetics, but that concern should should FOLLOW ensuring that the design is mechanically ideal. A solidly engineered device sells itself, even if it's ugly. However, flashy sequins, rhinestones and glitter are needed to make the "turds" more appealing.
As a retired stationary engineer. where in our plant we had real steam engines. I must say, I enjoyed it very much. I did know they made ones like this. Think I will look into getting one.
Loved watching this , excellent work sir.
It is great that you take the time to enlighten us all to the potential pitfalls when making a purchase.
Well done to you Keith.
In 1950's I got a steam engine for Xmas... about a foot high... electrically heated water/steam tank, cylinder swinging back and forth against a base with holes did the valving for the steam... very simple... I used it to power a vehicle made with an Erector Set...
A fun and excellent video. The more you've worked on these things the more you can appreciate your work and comments. You are a funny guy, and this was great!
Glad you enjoyed it! }:-)))
Thank you for your time and effort in showing what "bad" looks like. It's easy to understand something that is good. Bad gets tricky.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to prepare this video. I appreciate your showing "how not to do it" and what to avoid.
that engine is salvageable with a new one piece crank shaft turned between centres to ensure it is true , the two throws should be turned after the main bearing areas using a jig to give them 90' offset to each other , the existing main bearings are salvageable , bolt them down to the bed then use a hand reamer to ream them out as needed so they are perfectly in line with each other , turn the crank main bearing diameter to suit your new main bearing ID , job done , great video take it easy
Just a suggestion. Instead of tapered pins, I know demo only. Just disassemble the crankshaft. Clean all parts with brake cleaner. Now place a drop of RED loctite on all the threads. Reassemble crank. Now, place a live center in the center drilled hole you made. Use a dial indicator to be sure the shaft is straight on all the segments of crank. Be sure to maintain the 90* angles. Once all is straight on the dial indicators. Just use a small flame on a torch, or good lighter. Warm all the joints where loctite was applied, not to hot to touch, just warm. This sets up the loctite very quickly. Now let set for the night. Crank is now effectively a one piece crank.If you ever need to disassemble it, you warm up the loctite till it starts to give off smoke, then loosen joint. Use a mask, as the smoke is hazardous.RED loctite is permanent on shafts this small of diameter. Not historically correct, but only you will know. Just my two cents.
"Loctite" will not repair a Crankshaft as badly made as this one. In this case I tried "Loctite 603" off camera with the crankshaft held in the lathe chuck etc etc. By the time I have messed about with various bodges, it's just quicker to make a new one . . . .
In the basement of my school there is a similar steam engine but larger, it powered lathe before electricity.
I have picture of it and I will send it to you if you want . Lathe is from 1756 .
Not the video maker but please do, super-old stuff like that is amazing.
Hell with the pick,, send the lay
Wow! bring it.
I'm really getting nostalgic right now! Use to work at Sulzer in Switzerland and we built Ship Diesel Engines years ago, just a bit bigger. However, I always loved model engines as well!
4 years ago you wrote:
I'm really getting nostalgic right now! Use to work at Sulzer in Switzerland and we built Ship Diesel Engines years ago, just a bit bigger. However, I always loved model engines as well!
I want to say thanks and I always thought the marine slow speed Diesel engine had more
In common with an old steam engine than a modern diesel in physical construction.
Are you from Winterthur?
This showed up in my feed for some strange reason. I watched the whole thing. Glad that the gaskets were good.
Nice video Keith, but I did think you were going to say, "once it is in the box we throw it out the window".
Steam engine defenestration - that would be another youtube channel entirely hehe
very soothing to watch and listen to, as well as very interesting. Marine and Mechanical Engineer here, and just eat this stuff up!
After your string of disclaimers thru-out, somehow we all knew the Little Engine "that couldn't" would go back in the drawer. A good lesson for those contemplating a dead end project... Thanks!
I eventually gave it to a friend to practise on. It was very badly made and in my opinion not worth repairing. My friend will learn much from messing about with it.
Honest Cheeky English Machinist demonstration, opinion, and humor. :)
I have always loved steam engines. And have been contemplating using one as an off grid engine for a generator.
My father passed away a few years ago and I have found around 20 of those engines some are built some are just castings thanks I'll know what to keep a eye out for now.
Thanks.
The close ups of the crankshaft repairs were very useful.
Beautiful bit of filming.
Thank you }:-)))
Ive just stumbled upon your channel, and I love it! This is great! YOU ARE CORRECT with the different color parts, as its usually means someone else has been tinkering with it before ;)
I ignored this so called recommended video for weeks, now i finally clicked and i am very amused.
I'm not really even an engine hobbyist. I'm more an artist and a writer.
But your videos are strangely addictive, and you make model engines seem very simple.
Hi... I do not have a model steam engine... never owned one and don't think I ever will, but I was transfixed by your video. It's probably your speaking voice and accent, very honest and straightforward and the video was filmed and edited really well
I do hope you have the opportunity to pass your skills on to a new generation. We need more engineers in this country and had I had a teacher with your delivery I would have been really engaged with the subject
This is the kind of YT video I absolutely love. Well made, informative and generally interesting... I liked it so much I've just sent you some paypal pennies Thank you
Thank You, any donations are much appreciated :-))))
Yes, I found this video very helpful, I never realized that there were so many ways to mess-up a crankshaft. I do not understand why they threaded the crank parts and the webs to fit them together. thank you very much for this display and lesson.
A major problem with just screwing parts together to assemble the crank is getting the journal timing correct. The pin Keith installed corrected that, plus eliminated possible wobble at the joint in one axis.
I am never going to engage in a project like this... But what a wonderful presentation and demonstration of " Good Hands"... Thank you... Very much enjoyed.
forewarned is forearmed thank you - considering the absurd prices for steam motors (every time I look for steam engines I get model trains, ELECTRIC model trains!!! Grrrr!) you are helping keep the market honest. The way these things are priced, I suspect they are being sold by gasoline company executives! Very discouraging to see the condition of that used engine, it's like peeling the label off of a 'rolex' and it has Timex underneath...
That was fun, even though I have nothing to do with these steam engines. I fiddle with 2 stroke Rotax engines for my little ski-doo's.
I like sloppy, chipped, leaky, greasy, "kept working" ghetto rigged machines. That one stud is the cutest thing ever.
That one stud will cause the engine to fail.
It's not a stud, it's a broken screw.
Excellent video. I was considering buying an already assembled steam engine on eBay awhile ago, and I’m glad I didn’t at this point. I guess it’s important to have a video of it running correctly if one is going to spend the hundreds of dollars it costs to buy one of these pre-made. I’ll be looking into those PM research pre-machined kits.
I love UA-cam at times. Started with a video on Theater organs, pass through videos on Atheism, and end up here, simply marvelous!
since I don't work with small steam engines I won't find the video useful but I did find it to be quite interesting and very well-presented
Very enlightening as well as entertaining. Twelve minutes well spent. Thank you.
Hi, nice video and I agree with all of your comments and complaints. I actually live within 1 mile of Stuart Models and upon request, have recently drawn in CAD one of their Twin Cylinder Steam Engines. The company have invested heavily to produce parts for each of the steam engines on their books. I think the painting and poor fits/workmanship is down to the engineer building the engine not Stuart Models, even though they supply the parts as a kit. Again, excellent video, and I like the relaxed way you go about explaining the problems , and the joviality introduced to the commentary. Thanks
Taking your point on gratuitous painting of ancilliary parts Mr Appleton. . It's the equivalent of seeing a second-hand car with the tyres covered in 'tyre black' and the engine bay freshly steam cleaned. You just know that chances are.....it's a dog.
The Philpott going back 20 years, when you used to be able to sell old cars, my stepfather would buy and sell them regularly. I remember the 'Colin Special' would be a car washed clean with his mums dish soap, or shampoo, pinstripe along the side in cheap Chinese electrical tape, in whatever colour the cheap store had, tyre black tyres, silver frost hubcaps, or wheels if no hubcaps, and the cheapest, horriblest rubber mats he could find, or off cut carpet mats. Occasionally if his dad got him an oil filter from work (he was a mechanic in a hospital) he would do an oil change with the cheapest oil on the market. I think from when mum met him, when I was around 6, until I moved out in my late teens, he would have had over 50 cars. All done the same.
I could listen to this guys voice ramble on about most anything. Quite relaxing. lol!
I have machined several cranks from solid and well you may say your not a machinist but well neither am I ! It's a good exercise to have a crack at !
To have a crank at it you mean ^^
I was wondering the same thing being a rather good study in the automotive realm. I was thinking to myself that it shouldn't be very hard to machine a small bit of forged steel on a lathe if you have skills using them.
If you are just a hobbyist playing around, that is fine. But if you, as I believe Keith does, makes an income repairing models, he probably cannot afford to expend the time. Nor would most customers be willing to pay his rate to do so - unless the model had some sort of great historic or sentimental value.
What I got from this video. “Don’t do this. “
I like you hit the crankshaft with a soft "thumbfinder" off-camera.
I've got no particular interest in steam engines, but I enjoyed your video and will probably watch some of your others. Thanks Keith.
This was really informative. I've never worked on a steam engine repair and due to this video, I probably never will bother to do so. I'll just buy a good one in the 1st place. Thanks!
Thank you uncle.
It is right to show the failure so that with time we may arrive at success.
Perfection is the dream of which the warrior clan releases itself and knows excellence to be the ability to rebound from the mistake, calling it joy.
Some of the issues you pointed out were obvious to a machinist. Others not as much. Thanks for this very informative video. You did a wonderful job of illustrating exactly what was wrong and why you shouldn't bother trying to "repair" such messes. Excellent. What an awful job of constructing that engine by whoever had it before you. I might have to subscribe to your channel just to see excellent machinist videos.
Parts are a different color = Someone else has been into it already ...
ive bought a 1950 outboard engine that was all slotted screws. all the screws on the entire engine were massacred. it was a very bad sign.
When I built a Stuart steam engine in the mid to late 60's while at school the piston and crankshaft were supplied as cast iron. As I remeber it I machined the crank shaft in a four jaw chuck on the schools ML7 lathe, also there was no piston rings but the bore and piston were a good sliding fit.
It makes perfect sense that engines with nuts and bolts painted with mismatching colours are generally in poorer condition; Someone, a previous owner, refurbisher or reseller opened it and did something like a repair or checkup, then put it together with what ever nuts and bolts were at hand at the time.
Highly unlikely something like that'd happen earlier than that like during the original fabrication since bolts, paint and such like gets ordered big bulk.
Quite an interesting and concise video. You did an excellent job of discussing this sloppily built engine. It seems that every component was either suffering from a lack of quality in build or design with a touch of manhandling to spice things up. You as I agree in being suspicious of mechanical objects that have non-uniform fasteners and paint in places where it doesn't seem necessary. I really don't understand why someone would invest their time and money designing and building something so poorly. It's a nightmare from the start. I would hate to see the aftermath of what an excessive amount of pressure or RPM would do if someone happened to be near this particular contraption if it flew apart. You did the right thing by gathering it up and placing it it the drawer. At least it was worth the instruction that you gave on machining.
Watching an engineer that sounds a bit like Liam Neeson deconstruct a badly-made engine:
" I have a very special skillset. I will hunt you down and find you for painting these parts "
Steam has always fascinated me - my Dad took me to steamshows until teenage years. I like to imagine that in an alternate world where PCs were never invented (having got into programming them at a very early age, and ending up in IT support) - perhaps I might have landed in a steam-engine maintenance related role in life ;-)
--Cheers from Texas :)
I see your point about Vanity. Ive had many projects where I was under the influence of a person who is preoccupied with ascetics, and not form and functionality.
Dad always told us to paint the part we worked on so it would stand out for then next person. Particularly if you replace a bolt or nut because the original was lost or broken.
Found by accident, very nice explanations, demonstrating and warnings. I would watch you more if I have a hobby of rebuilding these great little engines. Many thanks!
"The bit I didn't show was hitting it with a soft hammer" :-)
Martin Visser that was a great comment, lol
the art of firm, but gentle, persuasion...
Knockometer.......lol
The biggest issue I have with those engines is that they don't produce 5 to 10 kW so they're basically useless except for looking at once and a while or for tinkering.
Though, if it's the tinkering you like then you kind of have to buy a really cheap and crappy one or else you're not going to have any fun.
Truth be told, I'd probably be terrified of a larger steam engine, with all that pressure just waiting to hurt someone. But I agree at the end of the day these are just toys especially when it is recommended in some cases to not run them for more than 10 minutes at a time before re-lubricating.
Excellent video and very informative, Its good to watch a craftsman at work. I have an old Mamood steam engine which came with a very old Mecano set which was given to me many years ago. You have renewed my interest in getting it all to work!
Great detail Keith, precision is everything !
Just as a thought, given the costs of these kits, why would you then shortchange the build by sloppy methods?
Plenty of reasons. One being lack of skill - often they are not easy to build.
Learned a lot about that poorly made steam engine. Thanks
Thank you. You’re a craftsman! And forgive me, but you should also read books to children, your voice is warm and trustworthy.
Just happened across this video. Good'ol algorithms eh? Great to watch, it was obviously a two bearing crank after seeing you spin it in your lathe. You'll not run that in with a drill!!
Very pleasant to watch and listen your comments. Loved the line about the gaskets. I have subscribed. Thanks a lot
I apologise in advance for the probably very dumb question, but: could one avoid the problem of the crankshaft binding due to the central part being untrue by simply removing the center split bearing and supporting it solely with the outer bearings? I imagine on a big engine this would be a recipe for all sorts of problems, but might a model work?
Yes that would work, but I really don't recommend it . . . . the stress would be great over the length of an unsupported crankshaft. Better to make another, they are easy enough to fabricate.
I have no use for any of this information, but yet i found myself engrossed in this video anyway. Simply seeing how these engines take apart and work is exciting for being such a bland subject. Thank you for this.
You know, I have no idea how anybody could find this interesting as a hobby, however, it makes me quite inexplicably happy that somebody does find this so interesting as a hobby. Kudos to the publisher.
steam engines are much more efficient than the gasoline or diesel crap on the roads I heard...
If it wasn't such a wast of energy to boil water...
Nope, all steam engines are woefully inefficient compared to internal combustion engines. That's why they are not used, Derp!
Typical gasoline engine: 37% efficiency
Typical diesel engine efficiency: 45% (55% is not unheard of)
Typical piston type steam engine: *17%*
Not sure on steam turbine.
Has more to due with the fact that a steam piston engine requires 3 consumable fuels.
1. Thermal fuel
2. Water (even with a condenser you will have loss.
3. Steam oil (that gets lost with the water) to lubricate the piston
Piston steam engines have the advantage of being essentially one stroke. There is a force being applied to the crank on the up and the down stroke of the piston. Which in terms of rotation power impulse is unbeatable for torque.
Steam is also not all that convenient because you have to build up steam before going, unlike a diesel or gasoline. Though before the electric starter steam actually was more popular, steam engine wasn't going to backfire and break your arm, and wasn't as noisy.
I was contemplating the very thing mentioned at 12:04. And now I'm not. What I'm contemplating instead is how little I know about steam engines. Thanks for disabusing me of my exaggerated knowledge.
honestly speaking, I would like to buy one of the scrap engines from you as a project, I live in canada so I would of course pay shipping and whatever you believe is fair for the engine.
It would also be awesome, but not required if you did sell me a scrap engine, if you could include a list of what needs seeing to.
I don't care if the engine is beyond economical repair, I just would like a project to work on
Good tip on the paint observation perhaps those come out of a factory with much less. Quality control , pride, or engineering or a combination of all the above ? I dont have much experience with the newer models but my wife’s Grandfather ha many older model engines that were made very well And because he was a retired Steam engineer they ran well. Although i suspect that he made that happen by machining and balancing things himself many of those engines were installed in wooden toys he handcrafted as well
The reason why the color of the bolts is important is that it means that someone else has taken the thing apart and then put it back together again with different bolts.
The only thing that might be worse is to have only one different colored bolt.
i would use lock tight to fix the crank ... sleeve retaining compound works wonders.
That would be a good project to try your hand at making it all correct by building new parts for the engine, it would be interesting to see.
Nice narration and very interesting! Thank you for making this! Best, Rob
Uncomfortable to watch, but informative. Thank you. It makes me wonder why some people even try to make a model like this. It's not a job for a beginner, nor indeed for anyone without proper tools and the knowledge of how to use them.
Could you fabricate a crankshaft by starting with a straight shaft and pressing the cheeks to the different depths. Then press the two crank pins in and finally cut out the main shaft at the two cranks?
The threaded crank pieces just seem to be impossibly loose and out of true.
That engine could be repaired, I wouldn’t give up on it. The center journal on the crank is in line with the outside journals. You could machine it down slightly on the lathe you have and make a new center sleeve. You could also make the new sleeve on your lathe.
Please see my last comment . . . . . .
Nice video and I enjoyed listening to you speak.
That flywheel needs a touch of 3 thou grit just to make it look better, and now I wish to mess about with those engines....damn it
I don't care much about model steam engines in particular, but your voice was great to listen to.
*" If a jobs worth doing ....."*
Loving your attention to doing a job right.
Keith, the crankshafts in large engine are not one part, the journals and webs are all individual parts. They are shrunk together with a 1.25% interference. Medium size are usually from forgings and then machined. Journals are all hand polished .
When he say large he means huge
Ship slow speed Diesel engines with pistons a meter in diameter…
.
A locomotive engine is medium in this scale he is using.
I was in Denmark when B&W was still making engines there and watched then weld together
A crankshaft!
I really have enjoyed your playlists, still going thru them. No ebay engines for me.
It makes sense that a steam engine would be made from gunmetal, as a gun and an engine do a lot of the same things. You have a cylinder/barrel under high pressure, except the "pistons" in a gun could be the bolt and the bullet. And if you notice, both rose to prominence in the 1800s.
I'd be inclined to fit up the end mains closely, and just bore/drill the center main oversize. It is just a model, and would probably spin up and run fine. The piston sizes - who cares? as long as they will seal ok with the rings, you're good. If I were playing with these, I'd probably end up using lots of small helicoils to fix the various bad threads. Those cranks are nasty - but with a lathe of that size at hand, a person could probably rig a way to grind the main journals true.
how about a steam engine without a crankshaft? just make each piston with a oil pump piston on the end, and use the hydraulic fluid to drive a hydraulic motor, hook that to a car transmission and you have a steam/hydraulic hybrid.
hi keith i brought a 2" scale clayton undetype off ebay as an unfinished project and oh my was i shocked at the bodge job i had brought 2 years later the chassis cab and boiler are done the engine was so bad im having to completely rebuild it from scratch
"Two of the gaskets are quite good."
Screw threads should not be used to ensure concentricity. However, I do think that if some had been assembled with some
threadlock in the first place then the "wobble" would not have occurred - which in turn loosened the threads by wearing them.
your a really good machinist i worked in a shop when i was younger . but i liked working on cars so i did that instead thanks for the tips .
It would be interesting if you could mill a one piece crack shaft out of a small billet. I would think that could be done. Maybe not cheaply. Of course that might just magnify the other problems. Good vid.