(BG3) Why exactly is Tavern Brawler so OP?
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- Is it really the damage? Maybe... maybe not...? 🍺
Note:
In my lockpicking example, I didn't mention it, but I was mimicking how TB worked. So you'd get 1 DEX from the "imaginary feat".
also, *ensure
It's actually pretty crazy how much they added to try to buff Monks, while letting other classes starve when it comes to Itemization. It's not just the new OP TB they added, by like Act 3 you're sitting on like 30+ monk only magic items meanwhile only having the choice between 1 or 2 magic items per slot for the mages lol.
I am in Act 3 with Auntie Ethel's staff on Gale....
Why? you have the frost staff, the staff with free fireball on it, the staff with bless, and the staff which allows you to cast 1 spell for free. Those are just off the top of my head.
To be fair, Monk's been starving for the longest time, with very few things that help with usually Monk exclusive stuff. Honestly, the whole class has been due for an overall buff by way of overhaul. As one whose first character was a Monk, I approve, myself.
Yeah, not to forget the staff of the weave (and the whole ensemble) that adds to your spell DC, or the charisma robes + hat for a warlock/sorcerer, or even the necromancer gear you can get in act 3. I do wish I could've had some of them sooner though.@@josephfrank3
Meanwhile you have 3 Items in the whole Game that work while druids are in wild shape
“If you could pass each check encountered there wouldn’t be much fun to it” me with 216 quicksaves at the start of act 2:
Yeah idk, saying "f you" to horrendous rng erases any feelings of guilt I may have had save scumming. 60% attack missing 5 times in a row? No thanks!
@@germanrud9904 percentages are just math and numbers and theory, real life doesn't work that way. in real life it either: Happens OR Doesn't Happen. nothing else.
@@MrTeddy12397 Wrong. Probability is built into the very fabric of our universe. As illustrated by the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, events can both have happened and not have happened at the same time.
Idk how failing a check is fun. Shit sounds like the dumbest words anyone has ever breathed. "It's fun to fail a check"....WHAT?!
@@1234macro nope, either it is or it isn't
Make your TB Monk a halfling with the Halfling Luck trait and you won’t even have to worry about rolling a one.
Yea, 2 1s though.
@@SyperDT That's a 1 in 400 chance. If that happens more than like 10 times during a playthrough you might be legit cursed :)
Never.
Only problem is you're giving up flavor for mechanics, as Halflings look pretty dumpy. You're running into The Marn Problem, where your Divekick is pretty good, but the character is ridiculous looking. As long as its OP, who cares about the appearance of it, right?
@@CPTHAP that’s pretty subjective. I find other people’s edgy drows and tieflings kinda silly looking, tbh.
They made this even more powerfull in patch 5:
"Wild Shapes that do not have weapons will now benefit from having the Tavern Brawler feat. "
But they fixed the tavern brawler damage being incorrectly applied multiple times to thrown attacks. You get some, you lose some. Even though thrown attacks are still pretty strong.
WHAAAAAAT!!! 🤣
i tested this on druid. moon druid level 6 you get the wild shape owlbear. now owlbear has 20 strength. that means a +5 strentgh modifier. using giant potion or enlarge gives you 1d4 bonus damage (i think) to all melee attacks and advantage on all strength checks and saving throws.
base damage for owlbears basic attack is 8-27 damage which you get two per turn thanks to wild strike.
with tavern brawler and enlarge this becomes 19-41 damage per hit that has advantage on the attack roll.
technical mumbo jumbo aside i had at level 6 99% chance of hitting regular enemies going into act 2 as a giant owlbear every hit that has advantage + significantly higher chance of critical hits as well.
i probably dont need to tell you how ridiculously broken that is
Imagine a party of Owlbear druids with that feat.
now multiclass barBEARian and rage before wild shape hahaha@@yihadistxdl951
for the 4 elements monk enjoyers out there. fire snake is also treated as an unarmed attack and thus it's affected by tavern brawler and other effects like sparkle gloves and kushigo boots.
yeah snake is nice, doesnt use the full action and you could use it twice in one turn. Shame they didnt have something more to go with the spells other than just the unarmed attack, wish i could do something with that potential extra attack when i use monk shatter or something. My best thought was you could make an extra normal weapon attack and not be able to spend ki points on the extra attack
im doing this build currently on my second campaign and the power spike from before and after i got TB was disgusting, tavern brawler is a must on any monk, wildshape druid, throw barbarian, etc…
yeah ngl the spark gloves, tb and fangs of the fire snake absolutely tore through the end portion of act I for me, so good
Sadly, Sparkle Hands count as medium armor, so they negate a lot of monk abilities.
@@artor9175 No they don't.
Making Karlach into a Berserker with TB was the best decision I made. Plus my main character being able to cast Haste or Enlarge on her to make her even more powerful is icing on the cake. She's basically the main character now
A bit out of context but seeing the word TB has never been the same for me since rdr2
black lung karlach@@lukenluna
Making Karlach into a Berserker with TB my worst decision. 100+ damage (90-95% accuracy) per turn in Act 1 is too strong and too boring. I feel like I had enable cheats.
@@lukenluna same
I agree. My tav is a wizard, so I just *love* to cast haste, rage, and go crazy tossing a bunch of +1 daggers for gigantic damage. Add Gale, and you can have a second caster also cast enlarge (or just drink a potion) and make things even stupider. It’s why I was able to kill bosses with a shitton of HP (like a certain Act 1 boss with 300 on Balanced mode) in just a few turns. Absolutely insane.
Its the equivalent of: imagine GWM gave you the +10 damage, but then also gave you +5 to attack roll instead of -5.
That's not accurate it's more like taking GWM splitting it in half and then giving the other half to the attack roll.
@@zasshulad2619 except it's twice your str mod. Hill giant and cloud giant potions exist.
@@jdavis7993 the first half is already added. Your strength mod is already added in both cases of GWM and non tavern brawler.
@@zasshulad2619 the point he's getting at is that strength, specifically, is a stat that you can get very, very high: with a potion of cloud giant strength, you're sitting at a +8 modifier: that's +8 to damage and +8 to hit, even better than +10/+5 would be.
One thing to note: while it is quite OP, breaking BG3 is not that hard if you min max just a little bit. Sorcerers can rain down multiple nukes, Paladins can turn anything into mush, Wizards can make a lvl 1 spell deal 50+ damage per cast or just summon an entire army and actually out number most encounters, and so on.
I disagree. The game is so hard now it isn't even fun
@@Brentt777 This game on Tactician feels remarkably easier than D2:OS tbh
Tbf getting fucking misses on all ur attacks at 80% in a combat encounter than getting crit by an enemy for 90% of your health is kinda frustrating af when it comes to combat in BG3. Watching a starting enemy not miss a damn thing while ur whole party fucking whiffs then just dies 11/10 experience
@@theguardianwolf7206
> Watching a starting enemy not miss a damn thing while ur whole party fucking whiffs then just dies 11/10 experience
I suggest you either take a brake from the game, or turn the Karmic Dice back on.
@@KotMatrosk1n karmic dice is on. Was playin co op with my wife and she missed, my monk missed the first unarmed strike and hit the second for 7 dmg, shadow heart missed her fireball and wyll missed on a main hand melee, then the enemy turned to my monk on lvl 2 and crit for 17 dmg and one shot my monk.
Ah, so this is why my monk Tav hits with always 95% accuracy. I was always wondering why it was the case. Thanks for the explanation.
I didn't realize either 😂 I just assumed they were a glass canon monster because monks are just built like that.
Regarding the highest AC an enemy can have: Sarevok has 28 if you kill all the echoes before killing him (although you might have been referring to only the highest base AC they can have). And, crucially, even then, my TB monk could reliably hit him.
Even at level 4, I was finding that my TB monk usually had not an 80% chance to hit, but almost always 95% -- only missing on a critical miss. With a halfling TB that would become 99%.
99.75%, i believe
TB Druid just became a thing too. Patch 5 now applies TB to unarmed Wildshape attacks.
As a druid main, I see the as a complete and utter win
It's true, and it's much less OP on the druid as you can't have as many attacks per turn.
@isaz2425 It's a single player game, I don't really care if it's op lol
Eldritch Knight in particular can feel absolutely busted in this game. You have access to enough high AC gear that you can comfortably get 29 AC without sacrificing anything for it, you can get a shield that imposes disadvantage on spells attacking you, and *then* you grab Tavern Brawler to exploit that Eldritch Knights get bound weapons for a throw build.
Suddenly you have a character that never misses, is near impossible to hit, and for the rare instances where an opponent actually hits you, you just cast Shield as a reaction and you're usually safe. (nat 20s can still happen, of course) Bonus points if you grab Shield Master so that you can reduce incoming spell damage to 0, too.
Can all weapons be thrown?
@@garyco766 Yes but you want to stick with weapons with the "Thrown" trait, ideally. Weapons that have that trait will do their full damage when thrown, meaning you basically just convert them into ranged weapons. Weapons WITHOUT that trait will only do a 1d4 + your modifier from Tavern Brawler.
If you have 22 Strength and Tavern Brawler, Nyrulna (a thrown weapon) can do up to 39 damage when thrown. (27 base, 12 from Tavern Brawler)
By contrast, a non-"Thrown" weapon - no matter how strong it is - will do up to 16 damage. (up to 4 base, 12 from Tavern Brawler)
@@Longknife Ahh, thanks for the clarification!
@@LongknifeOne thing to note is that “throw” weapons don’t actually do their full damage if they have an elemental die as part of their roll. Only the dice for the physical damage will be rolled on hit. One example is the Ritual Dagger of Shar, which naturally has some necrotic damage (1d4 I believe) in addition to the typical slashing damage. However when you throw it, it does not apply the necrotic damage even though it is a “throw” weapon. The Lightning Jabber is actually another example of this, which naturally has 1d4 Lightning damage. The description says you will get an *additional* 1d4 lightning damage when throwing it, so you would expect to get a total of 2d4, but you still only get 1d4.
It’s annoyingly unintuitive, especially since that damage *is* added to the damage potential in the quick menu when you’re selecting which weapon to throw during combat. Thankfully there aren’t very many “throw” weapons like this, at least that I know of. Though I’m still at the beginning of Act 3 so maybe there are more that you can get later.
Comparing tavern brawler to lockpicking is really odd to me because you can be a bard or rogue and double your proficiency to sleight of hand at level 4
Or use a spell to unlock the lock 😛
One other major advantage of the TB is that you do not use any weapons, so you can't be disarmed..
I have just started Act3 but at this point disarm is the most powerful tool my characters have in their arsenal.
And there is an AOE disarm.. and other neat stuff not worse than that.
So.. yeah, TB damage is great, but there are reasons not to play with it. And playing against TB users is not that hard.
Proficiency is directly tied to levels though. A level 4 anything will always have a +2 proficiency. I can't drink a potion and suddenly increase it like you can an ability score bonus.
You completely missed the point the lockpicking was purely for visual understanding of the problem not that lockpicking doesn't have mechanics to make it easier
You could substitute lockpicking for any skill check and it will still make sense for explaining why there's the problem of TB just going "lol d20? Who needs it?"
There are also gloves that give you permanent advantage to every sleight of hand check, easily putting your average success range into the 90% range even without expertise.
To top it off, Strength Elixirs are easily available even in Act 1. So you can have a character with 8 Str on paper (putting those points in other stats) and still have the benefits of 21/27 Str for most of the game.
Yep, and then 8 dex when you get the gloves of dex in the Gith Creche, then 8 con when you get the amulet of constitution. By the end of act 3 my monk had amazing overall stats. At some points I even stop trying to optimize it further, it was already broken (o:
Its dmg bonus also bypasses reinforced thing's dmg mitigation😁, so you also bypass a crazy number of lock picking checks.
I've been playing d&d for 12 years. (mostly ad&d 2nd edition) so I didn't need this video for myself. But playing bg3 with my friends who never played dnd and trying to explain why it was good was hard. Thank you for explaining everything so concise.
I think its important to note that expertise also messes with bounded accuracy but doubling proficiency should always have less of an impact than doubling a main ability score and your usually going to use your expertise skills less than an attack roll as their uses are more niche.
the main difference is that the player has direct control over ability scores while proficiency is tied to levels, so it can never get “out of bounds” and actually break the game unless the check is already so easy that almost anyone could potentially do it. You can get to a 24 strength score naturally, granting a whole 50% more bonus compared to max proficiency, so obviously doubling that on top is just exacerbating the issue. Larian should have cooled it on the permanent strength buffs, like the act 2 strength potion probably shouldn’t be in the game with tavern brawler the way it is. you’re effectively hitting like a level 16+ character.
Loved the video and how you explained it. Kudos!
I highly recommend checking and downloading the "Tavern Brawler Rebalanced" mod for those looking to also play Dex-based monks and not feel left out!
Basically, it changes the feat to utilize both Strength AND Dexterity. Your Strength Modifier is applied to the DAMAGE bonus, and your Dexterity Modifier is applied to the ATTACK roll (accuracy) bonus normally provided by the feat. Now to get the most out of Tavern Brawler, you will need to spread your points as you see fit into both Strength and Dexterity!
There's also an option to remove the Attack roll bonus completely :)
Great video and yeah TB is aboslutely bonkers, just started a tactician run and at level 3 my characters hover between 60% and 81% chance to hit (81% is with reckless attack), dinging four would make both my berserk barb and fighter/monk dpr MASSIVELY higher than my sorc and my warlock, I love breaking bounded accuracy so i'm fine with it but doing this at such a low level and with such insane scaling is unquestionnably broken.Small tangent though having a massive bonus to sleight of hand checks is very fun IMO, there a re other ways to deal with disarming traps and opening locks and stacking bonuses on a rogue to get a massive bonus helps with the fantasy of the character IMO.
There are also 2 items you can get to increase your throw damage by 2d4 each. It’s crazy attack roll and good damage.
Are those different items than the ring and gloves that increase damage by 1d4? Or are you talking about how those stack with tavern brawler for some reason so you technically get 2d4
Act 1. Barbarian has 3 attacks per turn + stun after Frenzy attack + 2 items 2d4 + Ring Caustic Band +2 acid dmg + Returning Pike = 100+ dmg per turn 90-95% acc. OP
What makes TB class broken is the fact that Hill Giant strength potion is basically free in this game, so you can go all in into dex, wisdom and vitality, which will increase your character's overall performance.
I'm glad you can break BG3 in various ways. It's part of what made DOS1 and DOS2 fun.
A TTRPG is different with totally different needs. TBH, the main downside of BG3 as a video game is that it has to use 5e rules at all.
exactly. that's the whole point of being able to build characters.
its what made souls like so much fun for me. going with balls to the wall builds that actually work. as opposed to something like dragon age origins bland as hell "you are a boring mage, or a boring 2 handed fighter, or a sword and board fighter, or a ranged rogue, or a sneak dagger rogue, and that's it".
give me the broken combos, and insane synergy. so i can theorycraft. and have fun with interactions.
its already shitty enough that they cut so many perks, and limit them so much. also, im still salty that humans lost the free feat on start.
What's DOS?
You're obviously a solo player . We are playing as 3 in my campaign and we are all flabbergasted at the damage the TB monk can output.Sure its not a pvp game , but its kind of underwhelming when 2 of us seems balanced or a bit strong time to time , and the TB monk just steam roll everyone , to the point of one shotting some strong mobs we were excited to face . We played tons of DnD before , both divinity games aswell. It just seem unbalanced to the point of not being fun as a team game . Yeah its not pvp but with those kind of arguments you could aswell download a cheat code to be invincible and one shot everyone .And yes we play it as a dnd campaign and that's one of the main reason we like the game . Not saying everyclass should always be equal but this is just ridiculous
Love the video! In your opinion, is an 80% to 95% hit rate actually a problem? When I design turn-based systems, I prefer my hit rate to be around that level, because I missing isn't fun. I think the problem in BG3 is action economy. With 3 attacks an action, Haste, Action Surge, and Elixir of Bloodlust, turns are just to valuable. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
Not at all! If a character has good items, buffs, weapon oil, etc; they should have 80%+ hit chance. They invested heavily into increasing it, and the payoff should be well worth it.
TB is mainly a problem because it outperforms even the best combinations of items/buffs/stats/consumables, does not have a cost, and of course is available so early on.
But no, a well built character that sits at 90% chance to hit is perfect IMO.
And yes, action economy is another big problem, and is compounded by the impotence of most enemies.
I agree, actually. Missing is zero fun. I think it would be far better to give every attack in the game a flat 90% chance to hit, make the d20 more heavily influence how much damage you do and balance encounters around that.
Yeah, DnD has a problem with being too feast or famine with the rolls. AC being all or nothing instead of incorporating glancing blows or grazing hits feels like a weirdly flawed system. In a round where every single person misses, literally nothing happens and it is a true waste of time. If everyone hit but did minimal damage, then at least some progress would have been made and the slog will eventually end.
I think they need an overhaul that incorporates some kind of posture mechanic a la Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (from a completely different genre of game). Anytime an attack roll misses, damage is done to your posture pool instead of your HP pool, and if your posture pool reaches zero, you are vulnerable or exposed somehow to more incoming damage for some number of rounds. This adds an entire extra axis to build around and allows for more specialized builds that may specifically target enemies' posture instead of exclusively their health. New spell diversity opportunities as well.
You can work out the details per the specifics of your own system, but I think the broader concept has merit and is at least worth exploring.
@@LustyLichKing Couldn’t agree more. That would make a great system.
@@LustyLichKing The more simple solution is to just do away with RNG. Make AC negate some damage. Attacks always hit and do the same amount of damage. That would make battles far more strategic. You can actually predict what the outcome will be. It would also mean people will save scum less. Nobody feels good when they miss an 80, 70, or even 60% chance to hit and that be the reason your whole team gets mopped up. I like Baldur's Gate 3 but I think the D20 system holds it back. It just doesn't seem like good design to me. DnD needed it because it was created BEFORE we had video games. It was a system born out of necessity and now it is outdated. One of my favorite RPG systems came from Fallout New Vegas. Just have checks on what an abilities current level is. If its too low then you fail, if its at or higher you succeed. If you really want to pass the check you can come back after leveling up a bit or change your gear or use a potion. I understand the nostalgia people have for the D20 system but, personally, I'm not a big fan.
Don't forget about the +3 from Nyrulna's Legendary status bringing that to a 6. Add the permanant Bless statue and with advantage from the risky ring you have a staggering 96-99% chance to hit anything in the game. Very balanced lmao.
Why does it need to be balanced? It's not a sweaty competitive game. It's part of the fun of games like these, creating broken combos and builds.
@@bigusdicus7890two types of gamers.
@@bigusdicus7890 balance insures that all builds are fun and relatively useful. Why run a normal barb when a Nyrulna throwberian out dps's and out hit chances every other build. Helps with replayability.
@@tgclericoll572 "Why play a normal barb when..." Because I want to play a normal barb. You don't have to minmax just because you can. It's a ROLEplaying game, not a calculus test.
@@GeezNutz Funny how you said that to the guy who wants the game to have balanced choices where options have equal weight, and not the guy who just said, "It's part of the fun of games like these, creating broken combos and builds." The person you're responding to wants meaningful player choices to be reflected in the game's mechanics, while the one you just defended is the one who said that minmaxing and calculations are the fun part of the game.
In other words, you're being a hypocrite.
I avoided TB because I heard everyone talking about how strong it was from the start. Shooting fire from my fists is cooler anyway. Still would like to find a way to incorporate strength into my attacks, though...
The fangs of fire ability actually scale as an unarmed attack and is considered unarmed as well. Meaning you reap the said benefits from TB. Allowing to also use other stacked abilities such as sparkle hands allowing to use lightning charges on to
Of the fire damage you deal
Now, you just explained something to me that I've never had a complete grasp on. the dice rolls and how they come together. I've played d&d off and on since the early 80s. You've done what no one ever has been able to do to my hard headed brain. Explain the dice so simply that it made sense to even me. lol.. Great video, God bless. Keep them coming. Subscribed.
Idk why but the feel of this video, your voice and script presents like a film video essay
The only downside is you give up AC on your monk building a strength based monk, but you can have an 8 strength monk and use elixir of hill giant strength to get all of the AC and all of the strength and there is enough to use them nearly every day. Then use cloud giant elixir on days you fight a boss.
Go fighter at level 1 for the heavy armor and shield profs, wear those. You'll be in the 20s AC with no dex investment.
@@TimothyRE99You REALLY don’t want to wear armour as a Monk, you’re slower and can’t use your bonus action unarmed attack.
@@TimothyRE99 true but I would much rather have the Vest of Soul Rejuvenation on and get the extra unarmed attack when someone misses ( or two extra when my drow monk gets duelist prerogative).
There are easy ways to farm elixirs also. Just respec a character. Every time you level, the vendors restock. Auntie Ethel in the grove in act 1 sells 3 giant str elexirs every time, so you can easily stock up dozens, enough to last til act 3 on 2 characters (more if you want). Then in act 3 there are like 6 vendors that can have CG Str elixirs. For those you need to be like 9th level for them to appear, but just have a character that is 9th level talk to vendor, then level your respec character 1 level, repeat. Can't afford that many? Just pickpocket them using same technique. Also really nice for stocking up on "arrow of many", or other expendables (potions of speed, elixir of bloodlust, etc).
@@MayHugger Nothing I'm seeing prevents you from using your BA unarmed attack if you wear armor that you are proficient with, at least not in BG3.
Starting 1 level in fighter and then multiclassing monk later gets you Heavy Armor proficiency and shield proficiency.
Might work differently in 5e, but in BG3, it's a fine strategy. Might even do a second level of Fighter later on for Action Surge.
I agree with you. That said, I don't know if I agree with the lockpicking analogy. I encountered a few DC 30 sleight of hand checks in act 1. As a rogue, it's incredibly easy to get a +10 with just expertise and 18 dex at level 5. It's not even 5 levels of rogue, it's just 1 level of rogue at level 5 to trivialize whatever checks you choose to have expertise in. Like in act 1 I had + 10-13 on all sleight of hand checks at level 2. (+2 sleight of hand ring in act 1 + guidance +7). At that point I have an 82.5% chance to open a DC 15 lock.
TLDR: agree with tavern brawler, lockpicking may not be best analogy.
Yeah - if you apply it more generally to any skill check, my example doesn't hold up because Rogue and Bard have expertise, which is at least similar to the "imaginary" feat I describe.
I guess my point was more about getting access to it at level 4, but it's not like level 4 vs 5 is a big difference, and expertise + prof are worth +6 at 5. Could of came up with a better example though, at least a +15 is trivialized by level 5 rogue/bard.
Same when you play cha class with deception and pick actor feat, you have +8 deception, with guidiance you can lie out of many sticky situations.
Tavern brawler is still insanely broken as is though. Also thank you for the amazing content! Found your stuff a few days ago when my friend was looking up info on his barbarian throw build.
@@rimanLip You don't even need to pick deception as a skill proficiency. Actor directly gives you expertise.
Im new to this type of game, but i heard about the dice rolls. I was playing a throwing build and got TB, my main char just never misses and deals a great amount of damage, while the other party mebers just sucks if compared to him. Now i knew that the orthers are just normal chars, and mine main is a boosted bs
Thank you for a very clear explanation - much appreciated. You earned my subscription.
If I'm not mistaken if throwing from a large height the tavern brawler skill seems to apply it's damage bonus to the additional damage procs gained when throwing a weapon from up high
TB throw can also combined with weapons that do have bonuses to hit so, combining feat and items, you can get to a situation fairly easily where even against a 27 AC the only way to miss is to roll a 1.
I'm glad this only works this way in bg3, not at the table in 5e.
I'm happy it's there, every single-player rpg needs a good ol' hilariously op strat or two (like the restoration loop in skyrim) for when you just want to see how far you can push it.
My endgame monk build: lvl 8 monk (open hand), lvl 4 rogue (thief)
8 str (elixir of cloud giant strength to 27), 18 dex, 18 con (20 after bonuses), 8 int
17 wis (18 after bonuses), 8 cha, and 20 AC.
Mask of soul perception (+2 to atk rolls), cloak of displacement, vest of soul rejuvenation (kushigo counter), kushigo boots, glove of soul catching, crusher's ring (ring of protection sometimes), ring of regeneration, khalid's gift, and Gontr Mael (for celestial haste).
Unarmed attacks do 27-44 per hit. Without popping any other abilities/buffs, can do 162-264 damage in one turn. If I go all in on a battle by using celestial haste (+2 AC, advantage on dex saving throws [with the vest + evasion perk, will take 0 damage and heal 1-4hp], double movement, and extra action) and wholeness of body (for the extra bonus action, now up to 3 bonus actions), I do 270-440 per turn. With the kushigo counter (use a reaction to unarmed strike against an attacker that misses), I can attack 2 more times to make it 324-528. I activate that by forcing an opportunity attack and with the cloak of displacement, they have disadvantage.
Even on tactician, this build is kind of game breaking. Can solo any boss.
I picked Tavern Brawler on my bard for my first playthrough, and I didn't know why that character had it so easy until this video.
very educational, you should make more videos about BG3
working on one atm :)
This actually exposes a problem I've had with 5e's philosophy of bounded accuracy as a 'balancing' measure:
Bounded accuracy 'smooths' progression. A level 2 paladin has nearly the same chance of hitting an enemy scaled to them as a level 8 paladin hitting an enemy scaled to them, and while the higher level paladin has more damage on paper, the health pool they're dealing damage to is proportionally higher in a way that means they are very likely to be dealing *less* relative damage to enemies over time with the *same* relative accuracy.
Unbounded rolls, in particular 3.5e's focus on flat bonuses and highly customizable character builds, has *always* lead to more fun player experiences with combat in the games I've run with players who've played both editions.
Its easy to explain with numbers. Two different editions you take the same action as a level 4 fighter with a greatsword, you walk at and attack the nearest enemy. 5e. Level 4. +4 str, +2 prof, +6 total to that greatsword attack. +6, versus enemies with 16 ac (average). In 3.5e, +4 str, +1/2str for two handed, +4 BaB, +1 weapon focus, +11 total to enemies with 15 ac average. You *feel* like your character is stronger than they are at the same in 5e, and your character is in a very real way, but only because of how the editions treat the dice roll.
5e treats the dice roll like a glass arm desperately holding onto the notion that 'balance' and 'equality' are the same thing, and is shattered by anything that breaks bounded parity.
3.5e understood that balance is boring if you're functionally the same character at all levels with slightly different descriptions and visual effects. Instead, just make both sides of the fight equal, regardless of how balanced that is, and it will be more *fun*.
It's actually fun and balanced for being a >choice< of a Feat, One of the best things about games like Baldur's Gate is the opportunity to customize how you want to experience the game. I feel that Tavern Brawler was made with the intention of taking the frustration out of missing everything you try to hit, missing a melee attack can be very punishing.
Just like Divinity Original Sin 2, there was a talent called "Lone Wolf" which made two characters very strong at the cost of not having more than two characters on the party, but considering it is a choice, It depends on whoever wants to try it with or without.
The only problem would be with something more "Competitive" like a Honor run, since in fact the intention is to be the most difficult mode in the game, taking a talent/feat that breaks an essential mechanic can be like an "easy cheat" to it. I would agree that this Feat could be taken out of honor mode for more elaborate strategies.
Counterargument: 3 chain lighting in 1 turn maybe with a dab of tempest domain cleric. The paladin class with a few crit options.
Bg3 can be as broken as you want it. TB dosent feel broken next to other builds its just easier to get going.
The real issue is that elixirs, potions, spell scrolls, and special arrows exist in huge abundancies from vendors. By the time you step foot outside the creche you should have enough slight of hand boosting gear to roll 25-35 or so on those checks and the highest you'll ever have to roll is a 30. Being able to get loads of those resources and 70k gold in a measly hour at just level 5 is ridiculous. They also for some reason made things like chain lightning available as a scroll starting at level 9 when it otherwise requires 11 and a limited use 6th level spell slot.
In a regular tabletop game case that goes beyond 15, wouldnt actually brick much if it didnt apply to regular throws.
RAW magic item bonus on base item goes to +4 (even if no sample is given, it is right there in the DMG section for magic items) with another +1 from artifact property and potential +2 to ability score for another +1. So, bugs/interactions which wouldnt work on tabletop and a adventure specific (and ally sacrifice required to craft it) legendary item that gives unarmed strikes a magic item bonus aside, the feats practical effect on bounded accuracy is minimal.
i remember i took tavern brawler for the damage, for some reason my brain, having a lot of DnD experience, didn't even register that it might POSSIBLY give such huge bonus to hit. Surely they just worded it wrong? no way... of course it's gamebreaking
Alright you've convenienced me Karlach is gonna be my spear throwing tb
I'm impressed by the fact they've managed to make 5e even more broken
The party just becomes a tactical monk beatdown delivery service, which I can't even hate
I added Tavern Brawler (and a bunch of other nice BG3 things like weapon actions) to my house rules, but only for damage
Originally because I forgot it also adds to Attack Rolls, but then realized +4-5 on Attack Rolls is insane early on
A little anecdote.
On the first coop campaign i did one of my teammates played Barbarian with Tavern Brawler would consistently get more damage by throwing random trash than by using his Great weapon.
So much so that when we faced the golem he was doing more damage to it by throwing pairs of pants and rings at it then the rest of our team combined.
It was stupid OP
Saved our asses though
Good lord, the thought of that is hilarious LMAO
Counterpoint: Berserker Barbarian with TB and Enraged Throw is fun as hell.
not a counter point, I actually agree lmao
Too powerful, too boring. Killing bosses in 1 turn is not fun.
Great vid. It feels like a fair trade-off for not being able to wield some of the really powerful weapons you can find in each Act.
Lol
there’s no trade off at all, since it works with thrown weapons you can use TB with the returning pike in act 1 all the way until you get Nyrulna in act 3. Honestly trivializes the game. set your barbarian on the highest ground you can find and let the cannon fly. 95% chance to hit even on bosses, and you’ll be doing double the damage of your normal party members.
@@IliumGamingDon’t use it then.
@@JohnDoe-zh6cp You're obviously a solo player . We are playing as 3 in my campaign and we are all flabbergasted at the damage the TB monk can output.Sure its not a pvp game , but its kind of underwhelming when 2 of us seems balanced or a bit strong time to time , and the TB monk just steam roll everyone , to the point of one shotting some strong mobs we were excited to face . We played tons of DnD before , both divinity games aswell. It just seem unbalanced to the point of not being fun as a team game . Yeah its not pvp but with those kind of arguments you could aswell download a cheat code to be invincible and one shot everyone . We don't want to force someone to change his build ,but it would just be better for us all if it was slightly nerfed .
@@Dontbother- Like you said, it’s not a competitive game. Just don’t use it. Tell your friends not to use it.
Ive personally never been a fan of how low hit chances are and dnd being a tabletop with a dm makes it more fun, but when it comes to video games I play to feel like I am improving and building up to become a badass. I tried using a bunch of classes early game while loot goblining to pay for my reclasses and stumbled upon an eldritch fighter, so I spec'd into it and have been absolutely loving using it. I am playing with 2 friends and dont have the origin character, so I use anything and everything in my power to become a one man army.
Featherfall, longstrider, and enhanced leap for mobility as well as thunderwave to help me in the enemy fling department when I also can just pick up and toss a lot of enemies off cliffs and enchant my weapon to return to my hand whenever I throw it, which I can do twice per action thanks to Fighter's passive and since I horde supplies and pick up ingredients and potions when available, I also keep a stock of bloodlust elixirs and speed potions to give me a 95% to hit with my thrown greatsword or anything else I pick up 8 times per turn when topping it off with an action surge(haven't tried stacking haste spores on top to see if 10 is possible just yet). Paired with the gloves and ring for 2 extra d4 for throws and I can pop by a combat and lay down 100 points of damage with no contest.
First playthrough and only level 7 currently, but my next feat will end up taking my strength to 20(+10 to hit thanks to TB) and I decided my new favorite thing is to throw all the syringes and artificial leeches from the hospital in one turn.
Just so you know, you can steal from Withers with no penalty for getting caught. At least I haven't gotten punished yet and he caught me like 100 times so far. Gave me way more freedom to mess around with builds without worrying about blowing my cash
To save a few minutes for anyone that just wants to know what he’s trying to say, it gives attack roll bonus, so higher accuracy, and accuracy can be good. There, that’s the video
Best thing about it, they work together fantastically as close and long rang dmg, with different dmg types as well, with different gears
What are the other three things that break bounded accuracy? Mirror Image, Knife of Undermountain King, and the Helm of Arcane Acuity? I can’t tell from the pics and would like to know. Future vid maybe?
Also, while i do like how spells like Elemental Weapon can for example stack their damage with magical weapons, i do not like how the +to attack rolls can exceed +3 (+4 and higher magic items also break bounded accuracy iirc).
mirror image gives you an insane boost to AC which is certainly BA breaking, but not nearly so much as the others. the other two are Rhapsody dagger which can give you a flat +3 bonus to ALL attacks and save DC, and the last is the arcane acuity helm which can stack up to +10 to spell attack and save DC. using just the arcane acuity helm it’s possible to get 100% guaranteed spells as there is no such thing as a critical success for saving throws, allowing you to completely shut down end game bosses with just level 1 spells.
i’m currently using the arcane acuity helmet and rhapsody on my sword bard. they get a move called “slashing flourish” that hits twice per attack, with extra attack that’s potentially 4 hits per action. hasted that’s 8 (6 on honor mode). Arcane Acuity gives you +2 per hit so you can achieve the maximum buff in one turn. I also took three levels of rogue for the Thief subclass granting an extra bonus action, and wear the Band of the Mystic Scoundrel to allow me to cast Enchantment spells as a bonus action after hitting with a weapon attack. So after stacking +10 from the helm, and combined with the +3 from rhapsody, you’re looking at north of 30DC to resist your spells, which nothing in the game can actually do. and you can use two of them every round. have fun
@@IliumGaming aha, gotcha, had a feeling two were mirror image and helm of acuity. completely forgot about the rhapsody dagger. thanks for the reply.
also love swords bard. def bringing some of the positive changes bg3 made to the game back to the tabletop.
Fyi there is a mod on the nexus that restores mirror image to the 5e version.
Tavern Brawler is actually relatively balanced in the realm of normal 5e imo so long as the damage is not modified further than base damage. A monk hitting for 1d10+10 (the current max level martial arts die) guaranteed is mostly fine by comparison to 17th level spell casting (not other martials tho). Even with their 4+ attacks per turn. The thing is with near guaranteed hits every damage rider like gloves of soul catching become significantly more powerful.
TB Throw with Eldrich Knight Bound Weapon Salami Sticks, and Barbarian subclassed into Berzerker for Frenzy and Enraged Throws, makes for some VERY frighteningly strong Salami Throwing.
Don't forget the Ring of Flinging!
me a person who has played D&D for 25 years: It would actually really be good to be able to just make lockpick checks by taking 10 and having a bonus oh my god, did you know this is just a thing you can do in every edition of D&D and rolling a lockpicking check has never been interesting.
Level 5 way of the fist monk (for early game double attack), multiclass to level 3 rogue (thief subclass for extra bonus action), then multiclass to fighter for action surge, do what you like with the other levels (I usually go monk for more ki points). Take the mindflayer ability “Mind Sanctuary” on another character.
You now have 8 unarmed attacks on the first round, and 6 unarmed attacks until you run out of ki, after which you have 4.
Further min/max at endgame by decreasing strength, int, and cha to min, and pumping wis and dex. Use mutilating carapace (have someone else disguise you), boots of uninhibited Kushigo, gloves of hill giant strength, amulet of greater health, killers sweetheart, horns of the berserker, and deathstalker mantle. (Some of this requires dark urge).
You will kill everything in the game with ease, and probably never die. Have fun.
Elixir of bloodlust for an extra action, which mean more two punches per turn per kill
this video was amazing. Do you edit yourself?
> keeping things fun and balanced
What I learned from X-Com and Darkest Dumgeon is the knowledge that even 95% chance to hit a shot is too little. Randomness might ruin your campaign and spiral into catastrophe.
Song is "Hanami" by Jake Chudnow
DND elitists HAAAAATE this BG3 feat so much, that they would blatantly lie to you that monk is a B-tier class, while admitting how ridiculously overpowered BG3 TB is.
1) attack roll is attack roll, not a check. things like shapeshifter boon have no effect on attack roll.
2) neither unarm or throw can use coating. the accuracy coating (quite cheap, common and easy to access) itself give +2 bonus. TB is still better but not as quite OP as it sounds.
3) most people feel like they miss a lot in Tactician/HM b'cos they ain't supposed to play on tactician/HM. they add great weapon mastery or shapeshooter too soon on their builds.
Well about lockpicking, a 15 dc is still basically a garentee pass regardless because rouge and expertise giving another plus 2 so you actually already got a plus 8 meaning you only need to roll a 7 or higher, then you can add guidance and it suddenly becomes at least a 6 or higher all the way to a 3 or higher if you roll a 4 on the d4. Then you get the gloves of thievery wich you can get right off the bat in act1 wich give advantage meaning you will almost never fail
my goal was to showcase how a feat like that would be really strong in a vacuum. in hindsight I shouldn't of picked lockpicking as my example, but my point still stands.
obviously there are other flat modifiers out there, and the same applies to attack rolls. You can get bless, weapon oils, enchantments, etc. Doesn't make a feat that doubles an ability score modifier any less overpowered, though.
Good vod my dude! i was expecting a DRS mention :P
Honestly even without TB the Monk class is broken. You never have to worry about finding good equipment or weapons like every other class does. You get god-tier fists as starting equipment at lvl 1, and that carries you all the way to the final boss. Never have to steal, save up, or explore for high dps spells or greatswords like other damage-focused classes.
Plus, flurry of blows hits TWICE for only one action point, so right out of the gate, you're doing double damage compared to other classes.
What were you thinking Larian?
Another offender of this is the scorching ray builds. Adding arcane acuity, and lightning charges, on top of the heat modifier. I can roll a good 40 on my attack roll per hit of scorching rat
it's wild to me that someone whose main job description involves picking locks having a 55% success chance is considered "fun" in dnd lol
i always thought it makes more sense for characters to be consistently good(85%+) at their main thing, and only have challenging rolls when facing a worthy opponent or caught out of their element(cha dump wizard trying to do diplo). punishing a rogue for picking a lock with a 55% success creates a world of unstable slapstick comedy where everything is subject to random, unexplainable failure all the time
This isn't really a thing integrated into DnD, but rather Larian's choice. In actual DnD, the GM determines the difficulty score of all tasks, so whether a proficient character has 55 or 80 percent chance to succeed at an average task is only up to them.
There are other systems where the roll is made against a character's ability score, with a possible difficulty modifier (but the normal one being usually 0) which push you into things more, but in DnD, it's really the GM's call. Except for saves, but that's kind of there for balancing reasons.
If Tavern Brawler only added proficiency to damage it would still be a great feat. Plus 1 to round of your strength score and 4 proficiency means it’s effectively adding 5 damage to each attack. That’s half of Great Weapon Master without any minus to hit penalty.
My only issue here isn't the analysis of TB being an overly powerful feat compared to the rest. It's the subjective position that losing to RNG is fun. Personally speaking, I enjoy combat far more when everyone hits, and I mean everyone, and factoring that in when engaging with tactics.
Outside of combat I honestly just force most checks to auto-pass. Some people enjoy the divergent paths of failure and roll with it. I will sit and dwell on what that random perception check was about for hours until I throw my progress away to go back and try the check again just to finally know it was noticing a box with 200gp in it. And it's still worth it to finally get it off my mind.
The RNG really fucks me over in this game, like constantly.
And im glad im not alone with the perception checks lol.
i agree that losing to RNG is boring as hell, but hedging against RNG normally requires a decent amount of investment, where as TB fixes all RNG with basically no investment
I'd say it would be pretty fair if it only did unarmed attacks because monks don't use +3 weapons like everyone else. unless you're pumping your veins full of giant strength potions then you'll only have and extra +2-3 to hit compared to everyone else wielding a +3 weapon.
The throwing build is op because you eventually get a +3 weapon to throw, you can throw enemies around for some free crowd control that all other martials have to waste resources on, and you can throw grenades for a little extra damage. TB throw is just a better version of TB monk in every way. You do more damage, you're ranged, and you still have versatility.
However, the main reason the thrower is better than the monk is because you can just throw 3 water bottles and effectively cast a maxed out chain lightning with an extra 10 damage to the 3 guys who you hit with the water bottles. I doubt there's any martial class out there doing 80 damage per attack. Tavern brawler being op is a moot point compared to wet and casting two spells per round.
This is correct. TB would be competitive if it only added +1 to hit and STR mod again to dmg. With full STR to hit, it breaks bounded accuracy.
I think Tavern Brawler's bonuses should just require you being drunk to work- this way it's still just as powerful, but you don't just get it all the time, because you have to drink alcohol every 2 turns of any fight, which would A. Disrupt certain builds, like for example a Throwing-build with Barbarian-Berserker, because on the first turn you need to rage, on the second turn you need to drink a bottle, and only on the third turn do you actually get do do the TB-empowered extra-extra-attack via bonus action, and then on turn 4, you have to chug another bottle. B. It make it very tedious for most players- the min-maxers and tryhards would still go for it, but the average player cursed with the knowledge of what this feat currently does, won't feel the need to spend one of 3, maybe even just 2 feats on it, while trying out a throwing or a monk build.
I found the TB monks overpowered nature accidently, I created a strength based monk-barbarian multiclass for tabletop play around 5 years ago, but never got around to playing him. Started a BG3 playthrough with some friends and figured I'd try him out. We got through Act 1 before I realized how much easier the encounters were on Tactical mode than they were in single player, even on the easier game mode. I eventually calculated that at level 7 my monk was doing between 75-120 damage every round, and I decided to rebuild him into a normal dex monk. The game is a lot more fun now, although I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't work out.
wait, you can play monk barbarian? but dont they need opposite alignment? or did they change that? im kinda rusty on the new rules and have been replaying nwn a bunch.
@marcosdheleno no, there are no alignment rules for milticlassing I don't think.
@@tannerkelley2865 they used to be polar opposits, bards as well didnt allow lawful alignment, just like barbarians, while monks demanded them.
which sucks in nwn and the sequel, because i do belive monk combos really well with either of them. particularly bards to unlock rdd.
I’d say the only down side is your ac, monk ac works off of dex and wis. If you say to just wear armor you loose out on quite a few other class features that specify you can’t be wearing armor or a sheild
I did a spilt shadow monk/thief rogue for an extra bonus action, getting off 4 or more unarmed attacks per turn, all with added fire/acid/psychic damage, plus regular actions and sneak attacks usually dealing over 100 damage per turn by the end of the game.
Huh. I actually have a level 3 monk and was planning on taking Tavern Brawler (without realizing how ABSURDLY op the feat is). Do I still benefit from Tavern Brawler if my Dexterity is higher than my Strength, or does Strength need to be the main stat?
Oh damn bruther this video blew up! Nicely done!
I can't help but read "Tuberculosis Monk" each and every time
Factor in Advantage as well.
You can easily gain advantage by knocking opponents Prone and now you basically never miss your attacks ever because the odds of rolling a natural 1 when you roll with advantage is 0.25.
Yeah, there is no better way to make monks or throwing builds. BG3 definitely added a lot of game breaking mechanics though. I feel like thief is still my favorite low level build though, with getting up to three attacks in a turn at level 3.
So what im hearing is, the "punch god" strategy is totally viable
D&D has never been balanced, but as a general rule, try not to overthink 5e (which is what bg3 is). It's a rpg, the story is more important than doing 300 dmg a swing.
BG3 is its own game. A Monk with the Tavern Brawler feat in 5e isn't "the best build in the game"
What a bizarre attempt to gatekeep. D&D 5e and by proxy BG3 have their roots in war games where strategical optimization absolutely has a place, this is an aspect that is very much still alive and well. Stop trying to impose your way to enjoy it on to others
@@Isaax Nobody is trying to gatekeep you overly sensitive putz
Are you actually asking people not to think critically about the content they consume? And of a product that costs 60 USD no less. . .
what are the other 3 things that break bounded accuracy that you show at 5:10 i don't recognize just the pictures?
Not just BG3. I practically run this as mandatory whenever given the chance. Not because it’s optimal for whatever I’m playing, but because the mere thought of me being able to wield gnomes to bludgeon other gnomes, or utilising a door as a deadly bludgeon against more gnomes, is just fucking funny to me.
It also makes you punch harder, which is also nice, especially for monks. But using literally everything as a weapon is the real reason you should consider using it.
For real though, run Tavern Brawler. Even if you’re a wizard. Just trust me on this.
Very efficient and logical explanation, appreciated.
Simple BG3 explanation vids
Subscribing!
👍 Great video, but a couple arithmetic mistakes.
At 2:53 the correct percentages would be 55% and 75%.
You got it right when you recalculated for a 16 at 4:41 with 25% but the 9 needed is still a 55%.
Then at 4:58 it says an 8 is 60% and that is correct, but directly contradicts the earlier error. And the 95% is also correct.
I was about to post a correction about the 1d6 unarmed damage at level 4. You only get that at level 5 in 5e! Turns out they made it so you get it at level 3 in BG3! I had no idea.
I'm glad they added this sort of stuff to the game, even doubling down with Patch 5. Let people CHOOSE to break the game balance. Let people have fun. Let people find these little perk and ability combos and just enjoy the process of gaming again. It's f***ing fun
I’m already about 120 hours into my first playthrough and only just getting into act 3. I’m so upset I didn’t play this game because I was scared I wouldn’t like it. 100% deserved GOTY.
Oh nice a gaming video that answers the titles question in under 10 minutes
Information promised [X]
No annoying intro/outtro [X]
Wasn't unnecessarily long [X]
Subscribed cus he didnt ask me to [X]
I completely agree, never fix it.
If there was a feat to double lock picking
Me picking every lock with Expertise and guidance giving me an even higher than 80% chance on each one.
"If Only."
Bounded Accuracy is somewhat of a joke, even in the tabletop. The lockpicking example given in this video gets irrelevant once you use someone with expertise, especially once the proficiency increases at lvl 5 for example, giving you the same 5 or higher necessary roll. The Eloquence Bards get just as silly but even earlier, since on level 3 you already get a feature that lets you treat any Persuasion and Deception roll lower than a 10, as a 10, which means that an Eloquence Bard at that stage already can't really miss these checks no matter how hard they tried.
At the end of the day it's a cooperative game and if you want to make a thief monk that can apply every single damage type with one single punch, feel free to do so.
Indeed quite broken, although I wouldn't go as far as to say that even without the damage and strength increase it would be "by far the strongest feat". At that point it's increasing your chance to hit by maybe 20% flat, so a 40% increase if you're hovering at 50% hit chance. However, a 40% increase in damage is still restricted to unarmed and throwing, and things like GWM increase your average by more, with the extra attack compensating for the -5. Things like Alert give insane value, etc.
I don't agree with your premise. I think as you level up, the chances of success should go up. It shouldn't stay at around 50% for the whole game. As you pick more locks, the chances of success should go up quickly. As you fight more enemies and use your weapons and skills, you should become a better swordsman or archer or spell caster. You shouldn't fail as much. Having an 80% chance of success is pretty bad for an expert. And there are only 12 levels in Baldur's Gate 3, so level 4 is pretty experienced.
Tavern brawler should not add the bonus to attack rolls. This makes this feat a must have for builds that use unarmed or thrown weapons. If it were like the archery fighting style and only have a +2 it would still be super great.
Good, i like it this way.
"Basically gaurantees a hit."
Good.