Why It Took 17 Years to Approve the Largest Wind Farm in the U.S. | WSJ
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- The green-energy transition ready for take off in the United States is facing a serious obstacle that’s not raw materials, labor or even money. It’s the permitting process.
900 wind turbines will soon cover a stretch of New Mexico desert, transforming it into the largest wind farm in the Western Hemisphere. The project, called SunZia Wind, took 17 years to receive a permit to start construction. So why were more than 10,000 energy projects like this waiting for permission to connect to electric grids at the end of 2022?
WSJ takes you inside the country’s soon-to-be largest wind farm to understand the regulatory gauntlet delaying clean energy for millions.
Chapters:
0:00 Permitting headaches
0:50 The federal permitting process
1:52 Permitting on the local and state level
3:08 Transmission lines
5:58 What’s next?
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I am amazed that this company was able to survive 17 years
Bureaucracy has gotten so bad everywhere that's gotten too developed. People need to justify their jobs, and there are millions of white-collar jobs in the sectors of "planning" and "management" and "consulting."
Have to wonder how much of the money allocated into energy goes into the pockets of lawyers and other paper work people.
in my city, they were widening the rails (2 -> 4 lines). the state granted the permit but the city permit was late. finally the city granted the permit but the day after the state permit peremption. The national railway had to reintroduce a new permit to the state. It took 12 years before work could start in the city, meanwhile the rails before and after were already complete long before.
We discovered afterward that it was because a friend of the mayor lives next to the tracks, and didnt want to be bothered by the contructions
Wow so it’s a personal thing the mayors do
Where?
Typical corruption, the one source of so many different problems across the world
@@Neuzahnstein Brussels, it was for the S-E express line
jail the mayor.
I still remember the opposition from residents of Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket Island in Massachusetts to offshore wind farms that lasted over 20 years. It's only now they are finally building the wind farm at a location even further out at sea than originally intended.
17 years to get a permit? That is like a lifetime. You could even change your mind and decide that you do not want it anymore, or its no longer viable. Yet apparently China is bureaucratic and bloated. When they build stuff quickly. And if you think this is bad look at the processes to get public transport approved. Even changing a bus network takes arduous amounts of time.
China operates totally differently as a highly nationalistic authoritarian state. If a developer wants to build a power line or wind farm and the government approves it, it happens. No local or state level government would ever question the authority of higher levels of government. Lower levels government are so eager to please their superiors that they will do nearly anything to ensure that it gets done and they get the recognition for it. Nobody is voted in, they rise to become a leader by slowly making their way through the political system from the bottom and working their way up the political ladder.
Historically there have been issues in China with utilizing the generation capacity they do have. They have had big projects in rural areas that don’t necessarily have the capacity to connect to the more densely populated eastern parts of the country.
You’re right 17 years is a broken amount of time. I feel like only in North America could that even happen. We (North Americans) are in desperate need of a political reset.
its just a scam ATP. 17 years is an actual joke. its going to be one of the big reasons americas infrastructure will still be crumbling by the 2030s
Welcome to democracy buddy
@@lordmike9384 Democracy doesn't require bloated permitting processes. This is a problem of government so large projects need to be assessed dozens of times yet so weak a single landholder can stall the project out for years. Nothing about democracy needs to change for streamlining the permit process and buying out the land transmission lines need.
That’s because in China, you only need one person to decide things. Are you willing to give one person all that power? Or do you want a consensus?
That is why nothing gets done on time and on budget in the US. This problem is is not only large projects, but also small mom and pop businesses.
I volunteered in California to work on streamlining government permit system and was astounded to find out that something in my own home country that takes no more than 15 minutes to fill out and have approved, takes one to 2 months. There are also more than five times the number of types of permits for everything. Everything in the US is bound in red tape.
Having a project that you’re hoping, might be completed within five years, take 15 years… Is there even any profit left? Or did funds run out years ago and everybody is working for free until the project is up and running 🤦🏻♀️
We have turned into Europe. All that paperwork is also a big reason for rising prizes
Same with building houses too
@@AlphaGeekgirl yep! I started a small restaurant, and it took 11 months for the city to finish. Called left messages, emails and no one ever respond. Got fed up and went to the city to check, and the last update was 5 months ago, and they never sent it off for review 🤦🏻♂️ meanwhile I’ve been paying rent all this time! Sighhhh
@@CHMichaelexcept Europe gets things done faster than us and more advanced.
If California can fast track SoFi stadium environmental reviews and permitting, I think electrical grid expansion / upgrades can also be expedited.
Hopefully they looked into how quickly sand deteriorates the fiberglass blades and what you would do for power every time they need to be replaced and where you would dump them and how many men know how to do the work or are willing to risk their lives maintaining these monsters.
Great report explains a lot
In a country like China for example, this would get done on a matter on days or weeks, not years. That's what happens when a country places efficiency over bureaucracy.
Yeah，China is dominant in solar and wind industry largely due to the govt incentive policy，and looser regulation. That said，China does have its own bureaucracy problem.
Being an authoritarian dictatorship decidedly has plenty of other downsides though. And isn't all peachy in this arena either when it allows building tons of totally useless infrastructure to boost GDP that's finally coming home to roost as costing many billions of dollars that can never be recuperated because it never made any sense to do--there's not enough people now nor will there ever be to see a positive return on investment for many projects they did in the past decade.
@@tHebUm18Well said！The amount of meaningless projects，scale of corruption is unbelievable. It's a money laundering machine for the massive bureaucracy，just like the wars for Military industry
We do not need tofu dreg projects.
many people forget transmission line issues required for any type of power generators
It's obvious that the utility companies (if they're the owners of the transmission lines) aren't doing their jobs very well. I'm sure it's a lack of wanting to spend the money (as an investment) on it.
The real answer is that homeowners should want to put solar (and wind?) on their houses. The local self-supply would benefit themselves as well as giving overflow to local utilities. This solves the transmission problem (with the general loss of transporting it). The problem with that is many people can't afford to, even with the IRA. The grassroots of the issue is lackluster wages for the populace. Between people not affording to solar their houses, there are also many who simply can't afford a house and can only rent.
The simple answer is that increasing wages makes it possible for people to retrofit their homes, for everyone's benefit. First, better insulation, a better power source, and a better temperature management system (Air and Heat). With the increased EV ownership, better transportation fueling.
If you think this take long. Third world country like Malaysia took a century to approve new energy project and still in financial planning stages after century long of power supply issues.
Great insights on energy projects, it's a tough road ahead 🚧
0:30 This graphic excludes the actual vast majority which is oil and gas and that is the reason permitting is hard. We have tried as a nation to stop oil and gas extraction through permit restrictions and now that is harming wind and solar. But also natural gas wants permits to change so they can extract more. We are in a broken system that rewards fossil fuels.
Very insightful and educative, thanks!
Electricity rates has probably increased as well in the 15 years which allows this project to continue despite the long delay.
Contracts are often fixed and from probably a decade ago this could backfire.
Man, how long would it have taken if it wan NOT fast tracked?? The government is very efficient and quick moving. Should have taken about 10 years, maybe 15. But 17 years!, that is just nuts!
This is why we are so behind the CCP
The waste in China is huge. They overbuild in some areas and go without in others. Very wasteful. Unsafe food supply. Poisoned farmland. We are not behind. We will soon have cheaper labor in the form of humoniod robots. Our industry can come home.
if we have to build renewable energy away from dense populations anyways....why would we waste space on wind and solar when nuclear is so much more space efficient?
You have the NIMBYS, cost overruns and disposal of nuclear waste to name a few
There is only so much capacity to build new nuclear at the same time. Same with Wind and Solar. The best would be to maximize building as much new green power generation (and where required, transmission) as possible.
NUCLEAR = STIGMA...you know the deal & understand the truth but how can you convince corrupt governments & evil politicians who are not only ignorant & stubborn but they're unwilling to build nuclear power plants because they're not being paid to do so...money rules the world and the richest oil tycoons all say, "Uranium is a no-go/no-no!!" #theKONGSTOCKS
Actually，if you cover whole area of a nuclear plant，it generate more electricity
Because nuclear has the highest LCOE of any energy source while wind/solar are the cheapest (even cheaper than just ongoing running costs of existing coal plants now, getting close on natural gas plants). Increasingly, even lumping in battery storage to cover when wind/solar aren't generating is still cheaper than other alternatives.
Also, aside from long term costs: the upfront cost of $6+ billion and 6-10 years is a fraught period and can end up billions completely down the drain if it never reaches operation as has happened.
Surprised the country managed to develop till this state with so much Bureaucracy.
Good morning🙏
Why not search for areas that can be Pre-approved for such projects?
The government should conduct environmental studies beforehand and Pre-approve areas that are deemed suitable for such projects, and then auction the permits.
DEAR JASC,
You have a great idea -indeed, but unfortunately - Oil, Gas & Electric conglomerates rule the world and they're the ones who line the pockets of government & politicians - how can such areas be pre-approved when those authorized to allow permits are paid money under-the-table via bank wires into off-shore accounts to prevent the success of Clean "Green" Energy projects...KNOWLEDGE is KEY to UNDERSTANDING #FACTS by #theKONGSTOCKS
@@thekongstocks The funny thing is, is that would also benefit those industries too.
Sounds like even more red tape.
@@danharold3087 How would it be more red tape?
Projects are the impetus needed to justify the high cost and time expense of conducting environmental review. Could it be streamlined? Absolutely. And there should be instances in which federal approval supersedes all smaller scale objections. Could that be done on a large scale? Environmentally review every possible route that transmission wires could take through the southwest? No, you can’t justify devoting lifetimes worth of labor and what’s likely to be billions of dollars of public sector and private sector time when there isn’t a project to work toward.
Yes we do need to invest in renewable sources of energy to fight climate change
in this case, we already have people trying to invest. Its the government holding these projects back. hahahaha so the government is holding back the transition to renewables that they have been screaming at you that we need to do.
Put all transmission lines underground only have to pay once
How about no new permits until the issue of used blades is resolved. No clear plan, no permit ....................
Beurocrats are the core issue. That and projects that are too big to be practical. Poor future flexability in current systems also adds delays. Good luck!
MÉRICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just move any industry to where to wind turbine is.
When states see that their jobs are moving elsewhere they will fix the paperwork.
That’s the problem between 15-17 years for a permit to start building
Wonder how many times they had to re-engineer the projects as new turbines came out.
I listen to the fist minute and somehow feel happy... Us Germans are, it seems, not the only ones with this annoyance of a Problem...
I've worked in solar - governments should be embarrassed how long it takes to permit. Its mind boggling. If a business worked like the government, it would be bankrupt and closed
So you want business to run government
So much for net zero. I guess we're doomed.
We are if we stop trying. Many states are at the point where they need grid scale batteries to move past 50% green. While an old concept the actually grid scale battery industry is fairly new. Getting better.
They don't produce the energy in their lifetime that it took to manufacture and install them and then you have to dispose of the worn out parts.
Not true, but wind energy is still stupid in most cases.
Yea, perhaps the Fed Gov should have the ability to remove state and local roadblocks, but there is no way that will ever fly. The R-team has made their 'name' on telling voters how the government is bad and the federal government is worse. So, there is no way that any attempt by the fed to bypass state and local would get past the "they are coming for your rights, kids, and guns" arguments.
The small section of this video spent noting the "fly over country" of some projects was one of the most important yet often underestimated. Additionally, some projects may have been considered "green energy" when they were started (as far back as the 1960s in one major sore spot for Upstate NY, Vermont, NH, and Maine) yet are no longer recognized as such-yet developers continue to waste the good will of perceived "empty places" on them, making it harder to get well-designed and timely projects approved in a reasonable manner.
Really strange
Unbelievable
curious as to a resolution ? The San Pedro River is one remaining free flowing rivers in the southwest, I believe the project will impact a 33 mile area of this river, as of Janaury 2024 the Case is in the Tucson courts where the tribes Tohono O'odham and San Carlos Apache are suing the BLM. Has a plan been presented or approved that the project was moved to another location for the stretch of river??
I mean the reason why even housing is expensive is government regulation. Leave us aloooone!
😮
Waiyanminkhant6477
They should generate hydrogen on-site to reduce need for transmission lines.
This definitely a possibility for long term "seasonal" energy storage of energy from peak spring/summer to be used in fall/winter. Just as long as there's efficient hydrogen storage and transportation but unfortunately pure hydrogen is not easy to store or to transport.
Maybe can "encapsulate" hydrogen into ammonia (NH₃) using abundant nitrogen in the atmosphere then extract at point of use and release the nitrogen into the air or use it for other industrial processes.
I think it still doable for *stationary* power station use where large storage facilities can be concentrated to minimize cost per unit volume of storage. But for road transportation (Toyota cars), hydrogen is unfortunately a non-starter.
Unfortunate escaped hydrogen is much worse the CO2. This is the last nail in hydrogen's coffin. It always escapes. Hydrogen is great for some industrial process but the hydrogen car and truck are dead.
John Pedosta, really? People have a very short memory
that’s what i was thinking.
it takes too long to do most projects in this country. building transit is a headache here compared to europe.
It’d be interesting to compare this to China.
China would finish it before these people finished their coffee
A few years ago only 25% of the wind farms in china were in use because they did not build the transmission lines.
They have enough empty appartments to house everybody in France
They built high speed rail where there are not enough people to use it.
If 1/2 of this is true it has China looking bad. Trouble is every industry in China is a jobs program.
Rather than lay people off they keep building.
That's why we must have a law based on harm, if it harms you and you don't want compensations, you reject it immediately, not make them wait years and years
You've have summarized with just ONE word: Bureaucracy Aka. RED TAPE.
Because we have turned into Europe.
Why would one place them so far away? This looks more like a solar location.
CA has 3 choices for wind energy. The mountains, offshore and the 500 mile extension cord. Few want to spoil the mountains with wind farms. Hard to build and there and some protected wildlife like condors.
@danharold3087 I bet you could find some great canyons where the wind whips through most of the time.
Also works to keep birds away from fruit trees.
But again, permits are a big problem
@@CHMichael Yes but one does not have to build in the canyons as they are a national treasure. Lots of rolling hills with lots of wind from ND to TX.
A little story if your interested.
Was visiting a national grasslands area near here a few years ago on a very hot day.
The BLM had a solar powered water well that filled a ~10 foot water tank. Stock tank. We watched a little bear sitting in the tank cooling off. It was quite animated. It may have been the cutest thing I have ever seen.
That's democracy for you. Nothing gets done!
Lots of China comparisons in these comments saying the way we do things in the US is bad. I know many Americans don't keep up with news outside the US, but China's unfettered "build it" policies have been coming home to roost in recent years. Besides forcefully displacing like 100+ million people from their homes and otherwise destroying people's lives to build, most of the infrastructure they built in the past decade has made no sense and will never ever pay for itself--a significant amount can't even cover the maintenance costs, let alone the initial construction. Billions down the drain. Our system may be slower and messier due to check and balances and voices being heard, but all that red tape also ensures most projects that do make it are ones that have a positive return on investment to both people and the economy.
Not even to get into all the other hellish aspects living in an authoritarian dictatorship that would not please most Americans.
Like the usa govt making the highway displacing and kicking the poor especially black people in the 80 😅😅😅😅😅
Payed your dammed property taxes
It will supply energy to 3 million households when the wind is blowing. When there's no wind you need a backup energy system.
Well....duh...that's why solar exists too, as well as geo thermal, and wave energy. No one renewable source is a catch all ofc.
Oh no, I guess we'll have to use wind power from a place where the wind is still blowing. The wind never stops everywhere all at once.
don't forget to add a grid scale Energizer Bunny
this project would have completed faster if they started with one guy and a shovel 15 years ago, and skipped the permitting process. Thats how embarrassing America is.
Urgent Pirmal council boarding, if you have one wind turbine would you say you want to have more, because this land could be rented by government from the rightful owners who were here long before us.
There is a huge section of the Midwest populated most by cows. Much of it is excellent for wind power. The farmers and ranchers would love to have a wind farm. It is the modern version of a big oil strike on your property.
China built 24,000 miles of high speed rail lines in the time it took to get this single project approved. We are an embarrassment
True
Can you imagine the losses in a 550 mile transmission line? Insane!
That's still okay as long as you Don't another place to sell it too.
you need to google HVDC. If you use DC with super high voltage, there is hardly any loss. Brand new tech, and they are installing these everywhere.
Losses are inherent in transmission system. so they use high voltage strategy either be it dc or ac.
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that annual electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses averaged about 5% of the electricity transmitted and distributed in the United States in 2017 through 2021. This new line should be better than that.
This is not insane at all. It is physics and the state of current technology. What is insane is not building it.
huh?
One way to avoid these transmission line head ace is, opting for SMRs.
Totally wrong approach. The distributed power and storage can fulfill the demand quickly and mutually benefiting than such centralized power planta hundreds miles away from load.
Corporations want to sell the power. Shame on you for thinking the consumers can generate it. LOL
When it starts to work all the money will stay in the US. But when you have to buy the oil to make diesel all the money goes to Arab countries, Russia, Venezuela etc. It's simple as that.
Happy to say the US is a net exporter of oil.
So renewables get a subsidy to, in part, fight the regulatory process. Such a benefit for your taxpayers. Not.
I think these projects need a different logistic and not always transmission lines are obstacle for clean energy generation projects. Interstate transmission lines already exist, and if there is additional clean energy generation somewhere, let the state use the energy to phase out fossil fuels within the state, and then help others, so instead of transmission line investment, the projects must invest on energy storing, let say green Hydrogen, or Let produce Ammonia for agriculture, or for using it on coal power plants, or let export Ammonia on other countries.
Am I the only one who thinks wind turbines are quite cool? It speaks clean energy, I'd much have that than the invisible particulate matter killing me.
I traveled the United States for almost 12 years working on them.
Now I teach wind energy to eager students
Let's ask migratory bird populations. Oh wait, we can't, they all struck turbine blades.
Eminent domain? Can't the goverment just seize land if its for the greater good of the community? I'm not saying they should or its the right thing but is it legal for them to do it?
Not so easy. Believe it or not, ordinary people actually have a lot of power in the US. A few local residents not playing ball can delay a project for years. And if the local government plays hardball and enacts something like eminent domain, it’s often seen as abuse of power and they can be voted out and the new admin can shelf the project in its entirety. It’s very complex and political. This is not like the CCP where saying “no” is NOT an option.
Just to add to what duerf said, even if the government is successful in claiming eminent domain, there's still the Fifth Amendment. The government still needs to compensate the former landowner for seized land - typically at the market rate for that land.
there is a unnamed delay here. Employee turnover. Every time a employee leaves a company for better pay there is a delay getting the new person up to speed and motivated to finish. its rare for someone to see a multi year project thru to completion.
Total ultleft BS. Altamount-Delta California wind farm is 16,000 wind mills. It peaked in 1970s with 20,000 wind mills.
In democracy, politicians are the employees not the lords! Ask 'Autoritharian' China how they deal with that
To see Biden looking around why everyone was clapping and who to give the pen to is the exact reason there needs to be age limits on all politicians. Nobody wants a 77 year old running against an 80 year old. We need Limit political terms to two for ALL of congress and age restrictions of 65-70 max.
NIMBY, needs to be replaced by "The Greater Good". Bring back the days of eminent domain and plowing ahead with major construction projects, regardless of locals it screws over or pisses off. We need more developers like Robert Moses that created all of NY's parks and roads that are still used by millions, every day!
NIMBY is the backbone of democracy buddy. It’s literally the most democratic thing a community can do.
@@lordmike9384 no its a small very vocal minority rule over silent majority
There is a limit. Robert Moses would have constricted New York City with freeways if not stopped. Freeway projects that almost exclusively targeted low income and minority neighborhoods.
The backbone of democracy is compromise, and since no1 in the U.S. is willing to do that anymore, nothing gets done and we fall further and further behind the rest of the developed world...
Go move to Germany if you want the government inspecting your colon every morning.
Developers and states have been complaining about this for decades, renewable energy shouldn't get any favorable treatment.
Congressional Budget Office (CBO) numbers
$20.5 billion in 2022 to subsidize fossil fuels and ethanol.
$9.2 billion in 2022 to subsidize wind and solar energy.
International Monetary Fund estimated that the US government spent $649 billion on fossil fuel subsidies in 2020
That’s why China will always win. Build where they need to, not where it’s “regulated.” How to improve a country 101
Not really. China is in essence one large jobs program.
China has built more wind power capacity than any other country in the world, but in 2021 only 25%of this capacity is underutilized. In 2021,
China has also built the world's largest high-speed rail network without first considering the demand for high-speed rail travel.
There are 65 million vacant apartments in China it is said this is enough to house all of France,
This is a problem that can also be addressed with better AI tools. While you can’t easily speed up the feedback portions but a lot of the paperwork requirements can be more automated etc. for example upon submission agencies can automatically check to make sure all required supplemental information is present and alert if something is missing rather then back and forth. Ideally we should also see feds partner with states more and try to handle state and federal approvals together rather then separately.
We need more nuclear.
..... but coal and gas plan are as easy to build than another taco bell..... crooked country!
follow the money, oil gas and coal are fighting back. Others like railroads and pipeline operators will also lobby against this
Troll tolls.
China never has this problem
2:32 “people don’t want to give up their land,” you mean you want to use violence to take it from them.
No. It just stated why it is hard to get projects done.
ECOCIDE
I was the 666th like. I’m not sure what that means.
Real Estate fraud??? John Podesta loses a feature off his overlay, face. Stop them.
Forget the permit or the delays. Does anybody even perform a basic cost-benefit analysis on these projects? The tag "Green" is nothing beyond fancy. These projects will only widen the budget deficits and push the country further into debt. It's sad that ESG has become a VALUATION metric. It is sadder that cost-benefits have left discussion rooms. Saddest is the people's indifference to their impending financial DOOM.
How about this for a start Congressional Budget Office (CBO) numbers
$20.5 billion in 2022 to subsidize fossil fuels and ethanol.
$9.2 billion in 2022 to subsidize wind and solar energy.
International Monetary Fund estimated that the US government spent $649 billion on fossil fuel subsidies in 2020
I appreciate the issue, and agree that the Bureaucratic delays can be maddening. But there is an irony when Californians want clean energy - and they are the first to block new projects (NIMBY). So let's build a massive wind farm and transmission lines in everyone else's backyard. Sorry, no sympathy on this one. The swarmy project director and associates I bet wouldn't let that trasmission line get built behind their house.
I cannot wait for the day MSRs and thorium completely obsolete the rest of the green energy industry. Wind and solar shill tears alone will make sure we never run out of the salt we need for heat exchange.
What a joke.
Imagine being such a muppet that you think wind turbines are an eyesore… it’s one thing if you lived really close enough and can hear them or they are casting a shadow on your property. What do these people want? I would proudly live beside a solar or wind farm it shows that you’re living in a progressive nation. I think for the time being we need a mix of all forms of energy including from fossil fuels but the more we can reduce our dependency the better.
china is faster
China really has people bamboozled.
Industry in china is a jobs program.
When they start building something the just keep building it past what is needed.
It is said China has enough empty empty apartments to house everybody in France
Lots of wind turbines but failed to build the transmission lines. They are fixing that.
(bard)Yes, it is true that some areas in China are reluctant to switch to green energy because it would cost local jobs at the coal-fired power stations. The coal industry is a major source of employment in many parts of China, and the transition to green energy is likely to lead to job losses in this sector.
So they are building wind power that people will not use because it will cost jobs down at the coal fired power plant.
NIMBYism actually runs this country
not why as how wsj and elite gang will make dollar profits if new energy projects are made faster
?
*Even with the bad economic, My life has totally changed since I started with $3,000 and now I make $68,700 every 14days for the past 3 months, I can afford any car or house of my choice right now and I don’t need to worry about my retirement ….,God bless Mrs Eleanor Nelson*
Lobbies owns government
Shame on you usa!