Unpicking the Integrated Rail Plan / HS2 East & NPR Cancelled
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- Опубліковано 6 гру 2021
- Unpicking the Integrated Rail Plan (Train News Bonus)
I take a look at the government's new ambitions (or lack thereof) for high-speed rail in the UK, which mainly involves cancelling new lines and reheating old promises.
Integrated Rail Plan:
assets.publishing.service.gov...
RailNatter (Page turn through the IRP):
• #RailNatter | Episode ...
Jim Waterson's thread on the Sunday Times spin:
/ 1459843367471398913
Stuttgart 21 Article:
www.railjournal.com/regions/e...
Music from UA-cam Music & Incompetech:
incompetech.com/music/
I feel bad for UK rail. Something I learned from the Brexit saga (I'm Dutch) is that UK politicians are more bussy creating one liners than making policy. UK is a country that should have proper High speed rail decades ago.
Our current rail system is fine, it does the job....no one wanted high speed rail and it's unnecessary, I think most people in the country agree that the commuter belts south of London need serious upgrades as they really are running at full capacity.
@@nickmagee-brown739 you sound so ignorant lol
@@reganiez in what sense? How is looking after the commuter belts that provide the majority of the income tax revenue in this country being ignorant? London and the home counties are literally at capacity and everyone knows this....so invest the money accordingly.
We have writes in this country who right about there train from Bridgend to Naples and how 200km/h trains took them through France and Italy
They leave out the bit where 200km/h trains took them frow England (most of the rail in England they travelled on was rated for 201km/h or more (even if you excluded Eurostar just take out the or more))
@@nickmagee-brown739 I took a train in the UK and it felt I traveled 50 tears back in time. And that compared with Germany which has only an average rail system. Compared with East Asia it looks like from a history movie.
Your favourite paragraph is even better than you mentioned, you mentioned that Stuttgart is being rebuilt, but Zurich has already has been expanded with a 4 track through station for IC trains (In addition to a previously added 4 track through extension for local trains), which is sometimes used as an example of what should have been built in Stuttgart by opponents of Stuttgart 21.
Not to mention Leipzig and its City-Tunnel for S-Bahn, the planned through station in Lucerne, or just that the Swiss system is so much better than anything the UK has to offer...
About the only positive outcome will be the, long over due, improvements to the ECML - 140 MPH signalling was tested between Peterborough and Grantham over 20 years ago! How they solve the Welwyn Viaduct & North Welwyn tunnel/station issue will be interesting :-)
Problems: The Cubitt viaduct over the Mimram valley is Grade 2 listed and cannot be altered. It would require a new viaduct to be built and half of Digswell village to be bulldozed for a new line and tunnels. The objections and public enquiries would last decades and the safety of Shapps' own seat could be in question.
@@johnpirie4804 It is indeed a magnificent viaduct - which is probably the biggest bottleneck on the ECML south of York.
Some lateral thinking needs to be done - even if it means HS2 type compulsory purchases - to solve the restriction it imposes else we will be faced with another Ministers announcement, "We wanted to speed up the ECML and increase the capacity of trains to the North but, regrettably, the issues around Welwyn Viaduct make this impossible so we have shelved the investment."
the closure of this link means the ECML will still be at saturation point. It needed the HS2 link to move the high speed trains from the ECML allowing more stopping services at a higher frequency. Now , the ECML remains in a mess, thanks to the cretins in Westminster
@@grahamwickens7049 the really cretinous parr is that the Government either will not, or cannot, see that by spending more money on a proper scheme, it will release enormous potential in the north, which is at present not being exploited, thereby increasing revenue to the Government more easily to fund the scheme. Instead all it sees is a mountain of debt to be paid off: the way go do that is to expand the economy, not shrink it: does the Treasury understand even trite economics?
I’m glad you mentioned the 140 mph trials. However, the net effect of it’s collapse was that the class 91 & the Mk4 stock went through their whole service life on the ECML restricted to 125. Also, the Mk4 stock was manufactured to allow a degree of ‘tilting’ (like the pendolinos), and that never happened in service either.
Another good video David.
The government always like dangling the carrot of fancy new fast trains and services without solving the core issues. Manchester and Leeds have serious capacity issues and hurting local services just makes it worse.
Don't know if you've heard about so far unconfirmed plans for Liverpool to Scarborough service will change to a Liverpool to Hull service instead removing 1 of 2 York services per hour.
Excellent! I agree with all that... But when are they going to talk about integrating all public transport? - For combating climate change (which I note no one in the regular anti/pro HS2 argy-bargy comments elsewhere has mentioned) we need desperately to offer a decent public transport alternative to the car, and often this is because different operators, bus and rail, just do not think about integration - even the mega-businesses like Arriva, Go-Ahead, Stagecoach and Nat-Express; the latter, when they ran the East Coast Franchise with the slogan 'making travel easier', never thought to have a few of their road-coaches connect with their trains to serve towns like Ripon, Richmond or - dare one mention - Barnard Castle.
Also why we should put in the connection between HS1 and HS2. If we're serious about tackling climate change then we need to wean people off their addiction to cheap flights (which quite often ultimately don't work out all that cheap anyway!)
Borris actually said he'd 'do for Norhter Powerhouse what he'd done for Crossrail' so in fact, he was telling the truth, we just didn't realize what he was saying at the time. Also, it's funny how governments love to re-announce infrastructure projects every 2 or 3 years as if they're brand new; like reminding someone what you bought them for Christmas last year instead of buying them a present this year.
Crossrail has been fully built though, and it will open next year.
@@DavidFrankal I accept that, my point was that you were promised a similar stunning delivery to that of crossrail and you got it or actually you got even worse but still it’s not like Boris made a promise that wouldn’t come back to haunt him and be even more true than he realized at the time.
Good meaningful breakdown and analysis for which I thank you. I live close to Toton and there were substantial plans in place for wide development of the Hub area. We feel very let down.
Excellent video, David. Knowledgeable, insightful and informative. Thank you. Why only 40 likes? Should be more.
We've got integrated transport here on the South Coast, you buy a train ticket and wait and wait, eventually to be told the train has broken down, but fear not your ticket will be valid on the overcrowded regular 700 bus that takes 3 times longer than the train. As luck would have it you get to your destination just in time to start back home. The train rolls in on time, but goes nowhere because the driver has finished his shift, more waiting to go nowhere, then the bus comes to the rescue and off you go to somewhere you didn't even know existed to wait for another imaginary train, eventually as day turns to night a train turns up that takes you all the way to the next station where it breaks down, at which point my wife phones me in tears to ask me to drive over 20 miles to pick her up. Southern and South Western Trains are a shambles, the description for this journey took place this week, but is reasonable typical of the trip from Bognor Regis to St Denys near Southampton. Turning back late running running trains is considered acceptable by both Southern and South Western, after all passengers might be able to catch another train in an hours time assuming its not cancelled, which it often is. The North isn't the only place with an aweful train service and soon we will be banned from using our cars, so I'll chose my moment carefully before telling my wife she needs to get fit ready to cycle the return trip of over 70 miles so that she can take a weeks worth of home cooked dinners to her house bound mum. It's not money we need to sort the railways out, it's people with the ability and desire to actually run what we already have. If only Boris would put half as much effort into running the country as he puts into fathering even more children the nation neither needs or wants , things might improve.
Outstanding analysis David. Politics aside, the short sightedness and silliness of the new plan shine.
The motorways will continue to be even more congested and be they full of EV vehicles, the country will suffer. Travelling in Japan and Korea as well as Mainland Europe you can only shake your head at the missed opportunities. Much is made by the anti HS2 groups about local services, yet as you say, local services will be the ones to suffer.
The upgrading of the ECML has been under way for a time. The Werrington junction was completed late last year.
The MML and ECML upgrades are in motion and will be complete _before_ HS2 is completed. Few disruptions will occur. If the 20 miles of proposed high speed track southbound from Leeds branching into the MML and ECML is built, the eastern cities will be well ahead.
Averaging 125mph on the ECML puts Edinburgh within the magic under 3 hours London-Edinburgh time.
Good analysis David. Looks like the plan is to spend half as much as promised to deliver 10% of the benefits thereby repeating the mistake of WCML upgrading that buggered up the service for 10 years and ran out of capacity shortly after it was built. However comparing the prospects from when I was your age (Serpel Report) I detect history repeating itself. Just as the Serpel Report revealed that it was politically untenable to do a Beeching 2 and that we needed railways, the backlash to IRP, the non-start of levelling up and other government blunders (e.g. xmas parties) will mean that a new government in a couple of years bounces back with a reinstated and improved HS2 to Leeds and NPR. Ironically Boris was right with the vision in his clips you showed. Problem is he's incompetent, corrupt and beholden to the Conservative party.
Whoever wrote his script must have written down something correct for a change; perhaps it was a mistake.
Thank you David this video is well explained and very useful for me to understand what is actually being funded.... well done and thanks again.
What an excellent analysis. I feel sorry for the poor people of Slaithwaite, who lost their station once and may lose it again! As for Leeds-Sheffield - well I used to relish in the long journeys in clapped-out dmu's like a voyage in history. They'd stop at Wakefield Kirkgate which hadn't changed since Queen Victoria went there on her way to Normanton....... Oh! Happy days.
Hope slaithwaite doesn’t close 😢. Transpennine route is like the M62 version of a train line! We really need electrification of the transpennine route and Calder valley lines
Really good video with a simple and clear explanation David 👍🏻 Don’t forget Antwerp station being changed from a terminus station into the through station with some fantastic architectural features 😀
Of course! Another excellent example
Boris Johnson is the sort of guy who opens his mouth, and makes promises which he knows as he opens does so isn't going to happen.
Disingenuity upon disingenutity.
Tories in general really.
Again from the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority, the fact that there is no added capacity on the MML shows how little this government cares, as the significant bottle neck on the Sheaf Valley Line is kicked down the road yet again. The only real hope is reopening the Woodhead Line, connecting it to the Penistone and Goldthorpe lines to the North and the Barrow Hill Line to the South, through the old Sheffield Victoria Station, giving XC trains and some EMR Regional and even Intercity services another route through the city. Fat chance of the government doing that in the next millennium. Same with Platforms 15 and 16 at Piccadilly
Reopening Woodhead is not going to happen. Gareth Dennis, who is mentioned a few times in this video, made his own video on why, which I'm sure will pop up if you search 'Gareth Dennis Woodhead Tunnel'
Hooray for HS1.5
Excellent reporting. Keep up the good work.
I think by all means keep the addition of East Midlands Parkway, ONLY as the direct route into Sheffield, Notts etc., and ONLY with the addition of East Midlands Hub with the full line to Leeds and the connection to the ECML at York. This would not only solve the lack of direct midlands connections, but still enable the full service.
Or if the government has said that HS2E has been delayed, but still ongoing, and EMP is the temporary stop, akin to the junction from HS1 just before Ebbsfleet for Eurostar services to Waterloo whilst the main London/Ebbsfleet works were still progressing
I wish I'd seen this sooner. You pretty much hit the nail on the head, nothing adds up, everything looks set to fail. Unless you're London, of course......
Well done! A minor mistake around 2 minutes, though. “Will be built” between Birmingham & the North West may not be true. Just publishing things in plans like that are just plans for the time being. In this context, “plans” are identical to “ideas”; not much more than that from the DfT.
Those who remember what happened over 50 years ago will be familiar with similar events - the long term delay in West Coast electrification north of Weaver Junction. A more recent occurrence worth noting is the cut back on the Great Western electrification project.
Note that any integrated plan needs to integrate freight capacity with all the rest. Remember that the justification for building separate high speed routes has often been to do with increasing freight capacity on existing ones - such as the Paris-Lyon-Méditerranée line in the 1980s.
Excellent and comprehensive overview, which would make a good article in Modern Railways. Yes it is depressing - especially in view of the Prime Minister’s comments to parliament at the end. However this crappy government can’t go on for ever - let’s plan for change.
Nottingham and Derby from their _centres_ will use the upgraded MML to get to London - faster than HS2. HS2 only went to Toton between then two cities then passengers had to get to the centres, which meant HS2 was near useless. Toton was rightly dropped. Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield will all use the MML to East Mids Parkway station then run o to HS2 track to Birmingham.
The HS2 section from London to Birmingham is not fast, being quite slow for a supposed high speed line. It is slow because of the extensive tunnels in that section. This section runs northwest from London, away from the eastern cities. These cities are better served by upgrading the existing mainlines - and eventually having faster train giving even a faster service than what HS2 proposed.
19:55 "Unlike the party opposite". The gall!
Thanks David...I will watch your space...David for Transport minister 👍
The last time the Labour Party got elected by means of railway-based promises was in 1964: The Tories had shut down a number of railways during the 1950's, and in the light of the 1963 Beeching Report they planned to shut down a lot more. The country was in uproar , as some lines had already started to be discontinued under Beeching. The Autumn 1964 General Election saw a victory for the Labour Party after they promised to halt the closure of the railways and eve3n restore a few services closed under the Conservative administration. What actually happened when Labour got to power was the closures went ahead regardless, and a few extra closures were added to the existing plans: Such as the total closure of the line to Lewes; which was eventually partially singled and kept open as far as Uckfield after extreme public outcry. - Although the section between Uckfieled and Lewes was nonetheless closed to make way for a road bypass South of Uckfield.
Bearing the above in mind, as well as seeing Johnson's farcical performance, it appears that no politician or political party can be trusted with Britain's railways.
The Midland mainline does have the advantage of having better connectivity with the actual population centres. The is very little of importance to the east of Chesterfield. The Great Central went that way also with a loop to Chesterfield but in those days coal mines were very important.
I would not be too dismayed. HS2 is a much larger investment than in the years before. Nothing to stop extension in future years.
Amazing video thank you :)
Sad to see Sheffield not getting hs2 anymore.
If I could have it my way I'd have them reopen the line between Buxton and maklock. Hit by the bleaching cuts :( .
Ps I doubt they'd ever build another line between Sheffield and Manchester, due to the national park in the way
This is the same anti-norh transport policy seen in the HSR/North Bothnia debate in Sweden. Residents that would be served by the line are sceptical towards the government allegedly prioritising the Stockholm to Gothenburg and Stockholm to Malmö HSR lines, which are not even planned. Meanwhile the North Bothnia Line between Umea and Lulea is already having trackbed built.
But there is still a long way to go before the complete line is fully planned, let alone completed and opened for service.
Not only is the North Bothnia line in contention. There was the Swedish Transport Administration announcing plans to build a long platform for sleeper trains in Skelleftea, only to axe the project three months later. The city of Skelleftea hasn't had passenger services of any kind since 1993, when local railbus services were terminated.
I’m still waiting for electrification of the windemere line! As it was promised ages ago
You'll be waiting a very long time I'm afraid
Battery electric trains are being considered to cover the short Oxenholm to Windermere section. Overhead wires was precluded on aesthetic grounds as it is national park. Then direct trains to Liverpool and Manchester are possible.
@@johnburns4017 Um the west coast mainline runs through the Lake District with overhead power lines?
It’s actually ridiculous that The north isn’t getting what it was promised
@@Transpennine
Overhead wires were precluded on aesthetic grounds.
_"It’s actually ridiculous that The north isn’t getting what it was promised"_
Very true.
@@johnburns4017 as Andy Burnham once said ‘we are second class Citizens’ - Very true
Bonus points that the other turnback station, Curzon Street, is on the site of the terminus that closed because, shocker, it was a terminus and didn't allow through running...
Ha, good point!
Birmingham Curzon Street Terminus is being used as there is no track or platform Space for these new trains.
is the part being built a base tunnel under the prnines.
Btw David I love your little jet 2 plane models I see in the background 😃 I bought those when I went on holiday
They're Oman Air!
@@DavidFrankal lol thought they were Jet2
Line blocked big time at Dawlish etc yesterday. Okehampton to Plymouth anyone?
13:27 and suddenly for NPR West you have softer lighting, you're more in focus and the sound is less echoey.
Government departments just feed scripts to ministers then sit back (mostly in the comfort of their own homes presently), relying on ministers' ignorance of their new brief, watch them make the prescribed soothing announcements and make complete arses of themselves in the process.
PS Excellent video! Have you sent the link to Little Shapps or The DfT?
Birmingham to Leeds will *not* be going via Manchester. Nothing officially has been stated as it is all recommendations. It will most probably be via East Midlands Parkway then up an upgraded MML. The Integrated Rail Plan mentions that a study should be undertaken to build a section of high speed line running south on the line from Leeds to north of Sheffield branching onto the ECML and/or MML. So Birmingham-East Mids Parkway-Sheffield-Leeds on high speed track sandwiching upgraded MML track.
Leeds is not the biggest loser. *Leeds does not lose at all.* Runcorn is losing its London service, the biggest loser of all. Liverpool gains near zero in its times to London, which is around 30 minutes slower than adjacent Manchester - currently on WCML both cities have parity in time to London. Once the 20 mile section of high speed track is built south of Leeds, Leeds-London time will be _at least_ equal to the HS2 times. Leeds times to Birmingham will be about equal to HS2. Leeds does not lose out in train journey times. High speed track is to be built from Manchester to Marsden in Yorkshire taking NPR trains from Liverpool and Manchester to Leeds.
A section of NPR high speed track is to be built from the Tatton junction east of Warrington to Warrington Bank Quay Low level station which will then take HS2 and NPR trains to Liverpool on an old freight line.
From the Integrated Rail Plan:
_East Coast Main Line (ECML) from London to Leeds and the North East, including elements identified for Northern Powerhouse Rail, with the aim of delivering benefits earlier. We will ensure digital signalling is delivered and also upgrade the power supply to allow longer and more frequent trains, increase maximum speeds up to 140mph in some places, improve the capacity of stations, and remove bottlenecks such as flat junctions and crossings._ *_Because the ECML is more direct than the previously proposed HS2 route via the West Midlands, an upgraded ECML will deliver journey times from London to York and North East England similar to the proposed HS2 scheme_*
_electrification of the Midland Main Line (already being electrified to Market Harborough) to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield via Derby. Combined with the new East Midlands high speed line above, this would give Sheffield and Chesterfield almost_ *_exactly the same journey times to London as existing HS2 plans._*
Interesting 🧐
I’m going to see this my self and see what I think
The biggest hit seems to be the North-east. I will say this is typical Boris Johnson, over promise and under deliver. He did when he was mayor of London and does it again as PM.
I know the north trans pennine route and by passing it unit Marsden is pathetic. You may bypass a local train, but won't improve capacity at all.
With regards to the claim that building a new line between Manchester and Leeds would make the upgrade of the existing one a waste, on balance it would probably be better to build the new one first, given that upgrading existing lines is very disruptive and so the new line would give passengers another travel option during the upgrade!
If construction on NPR could start tomorrow, I'd agree. Unfortunately we're still a very long way away from that, having mostly squandered the last decade...
@@DavidFrankal With the latest cutbacks to HS2, I'd say you're due for another video!
I think that from Birmingham Curzon Street 2 trains will run to Nottingham and 1 train will run to Sheffield.
How are two trains going to run from Curzon Street to Nottingham and 1 to Sheffield when the HS2 line has no connection to these places
Great summary. Thanks. If overlaying music over speaking, it would be better to turn down the music volume for clarity.
I understand the desire and need for new lines and I’m a big supporter of such, but with the need to move from Diesel to Electric, the older victorian network has got to be upgraded to meet the next generation’s needs. Yes there’s opportunities missed but we have to start somewhere
We need both, that's the simple truth of it.
I agree, electrification is the key to greater integration and I suspect that's mostly what's behind this new plan. essentially it's a reallocation of resources.
Still no Platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly? 🤔🤔
Nope!
It's all typically Boris - lazy.
The Integrated Rail Plan redefined HS2. It is now a London to Wigan line, not a network. It will run onto the WCML at Wigna onwards to Scotland. There are two prime branches off it. One eastbound from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway station, the other branching off east of Warrington eastbound to Manchester. HS2 parallels the WCML and is now merely a WCML relief line.
Grant Shapps the Transport Minister, has said that the section from the WCML at Wigan to the branch east of Warrington, called the Golborne Spur, is to be axed. This leaves an incomplete and cludgy HS2, with phase 2B (north of Crewe) serving only Manchester via a circuitous line around Tatton past Manchester airport. This circuitous line costing billions, was incorporated in case private funding wanted to build a station at Manchester airport. No kidding. The funding has still not been found for the HS2 Manchester airport station, which is separate from the existing station and a bus ride from the terminal. No kidding. This is a horrendous cost for a rail line to just one provincial city, which already has a direct line to the Crewe junction, which can easily, and cheaply, be upgraded. Expect HS2 to be terminated at Crewe.
The Integrated Rail Plan outlined upgrading the Midland Main Line (MML) and the East Coast Main Line (ECML) to 140mph running in many sections, giving the eastern cities equivalent journey times to London as HS2. The WCML from Crewe to Warrington, and the WCML Liverpool & Manchester spurs need upgrading which would improve Liverpool to London journey times and be not far short of HS2 times on the London-Manchester run. Then no more massive needless expense on duplicating rail infrastructure.
The ecml has been abandoned for too long, also the regional lines in the North East are crumbling and prices are going up
inadequate rail plan
This was always expected when the Tories promised big spending in the North. The only good thing we can hold onto is this half arsed let's hope they don't notice we've broken all our promises northern rail improvement, leaves the door open for an actual northern powerhouse rail in the not too distant future if we actually get a government who will keep their promises
They are simply balancing the books, they do care about the Northern parts of England. You can't have everything at once, especially during the middle of a pandemic that's crippled the economy.
5:57 Weren't we promised that back in 1989?
Going back a bit before my time there! Wouldn't surprise me
@@DavidFrankal Yup as part of the ECML electrification the plan was to have 91s run at 140mph (hence their 225 name) between Peterborough and York It would have been achieved by having a flashing Green aspect on a conventional 4 aspect signal (steady green would mean the next signal is double yellow).
As usual the north gets shafted and being from Bradford this is particularly irritating.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
so high speed rail liverpool to leeds might have to look for private investor
Barmy planning by GB gov, restoring usual service😎
I found the music to be very distracting.
The buck has to stop with Rishi Sunak
Labour and Torres are more or less one and the same to me. Even if labour wins the next election I doubt they will properly commit to the cancelled plans
They've committed to them now, I'm not sure there's much more they could physically do at this point!
Labour are not the same as the Tories. The only reason that’s widely believed is because when Labour last left office, both parties were fairly close to the centre ground. Since then, the Tories have only gone further to the right, and Labour have gone to the left, but only the Tories have been in government to prove it.
This isnt strictly true, yes both parties have diverged significantly ideologically speaking when it comes to culture and values, but economically, both parties have shifted leftwards and closer together in recent years, the conservatives preach frugality but are spending like there is no tomorrow at the moment, we haven't had a tax surplus in nearly two years now due to rampant spending on the likes of furlough and social care and low economic productivity in the wake of the pandemic, labour would probably spend more but either way we are already spending far beyond our means if interest rates were ever to rise, I suspect the rail plan promised was more realistic before the pandemic, however since the lockdowns debt to GDP has exceeded 100%, rishi sunak who I suspect doesn't care much at all about rail investments is probably badgering the transport ministry to help tighten the purse strings.
@@hpsauce1078 To be fair that is exactly what a government should be doing in a recession though, that is how counter cyclical fiscal policy works. You spend to fill in the troughs and austerity in times when the economy is booming to suck some of the excess cash back out of the system and pay down debts. Unfortunately governments often make things worse by doing the opposite and contracting the economy even further in a recession or causing inflation by injecting excess money into an already bloated boom.
@@hpsauce1078 conservatives outspending the left is more a feature than a bug in my experience. They only complain about the deficit when they're not in power.
Maybe HS2 has been cancelled but I still think that it could still happen. And the Northern Powerhouse should also be given the go ahead. This is what the North of England really needs. Instead of focusing on London and the South. Why not give £xxmillions or £xxxmillions for the North of England.
But HS2 has been given the go ahead and already started building, so they can't cancel it now.
It is only the Eastern Leg of HS2 that has been cancelled the line from Crewe and Birmingham of HS2 is being constructed now.
It probably wasn't worth it but it's still not a good look
China has built over 5 thousand miles of railways not just in China Africa Russia (new Subway) Indonesia etc 😂🤣 and we can't even build a couple of hundred miles of railway in the same time as a country that invented the railway system 🚂 we have certainly gone backwards 😂🤣😂
And just how much money has actually been totally wasted? Management consultants and project managers don't come cheap!!! Literally a gravy train!!
Dude - thanks and all but wish you’d given more thought to the sound . Mile away from mike coupled with echo not good listening to say least !!
Bojo has NO credibility whatsoever.
Same crap again Midlands and the North getting secound best
It's all political spin by government it. Favours the Midlands & West cost but other areas won't actually get benefits for another 10 years.
New section track Manchester to Marsden is bluff fooled lot people Inc person film here. Actually electrified line from Manchester through to marsden in Old days most this line was 3 or 4 tracked. It was streamline to 2 tracks back in early 80's, restore old disused tracks and marsden tunnels are 1 double bore & 2 single bores latter disused these would be brought back into use increase track ie new line not High Speed line that government trying con people thinking there getting.
To get the reduced journey times over pennines is by increasing line speed of existing track through re engineering it that's only way. The quoted times Leeds to Birmingham reductions are in fact via TPE route to join HS2 at Manchester not as people will think classic route via Sheffield & Derby.
Those pesky Tories
Considering Boris "the Bridge Builder" Johnson has been known to be complete and utter liar I am not surprised that he's playing politik with the numbers to make it seem more expensive than it is... He certainly didn't care when the bridge to Ireland was going to cost WAAAAAAY more than that and have far fewer actual users... SMH...
The sad part is that you all fall for slicks. Truth shall disappoint.
Yeah, sure HS2 may not have been as good as some of us would have been led to believe, but I can assure you that it would've been a heck of a lot better than the current situation, and a heck of a lot better than the new plans.
High Speed Rail is a bonus if the distances are great (Hamburg- Munich, Paris - Marseilles, Milan - Reggio). for it to be from from Manchester - London to save what, 20 minutes on time,come on, total vanity project.
If Grant Craps wants' to play with his puffer train set , Upgrade and modernise existing lines, and cut prices to make train travel an experience, and popular again.(especially Weekends)
just a thought.
Nobody builds high speed rail to cut down journey times (except for maybe Spain). If that were the case said Hamburg to Munich service wouldn't take well over 5 hours. It is merely the most efficient way of, well, upgrading the existing lines.
@@ft4709 Tosh, if that was the case then all the high speed rail lines would be running old steam engines on them.
I think its easy to forget that we are moving through an ongoing pandemic that has not only cost and will continue to cost a fortune but has put the use of the railway in a declined state for an unspecified period of time. Couple that with the fact that a lot of the tax paying public don’t use the railway and certainly don’t want to spend their taxes on it, we are doing remarkably well and I personally am astounded by what we are getting. I blame the media for cultivating an entitled culture, especially the socialist BBC as it thrives on doom and gloom but I refuse to get drawn in. I’ve got my own mind and I can form my own opinion and on this subject, I think the railway has done disproportionately well and look at the positives rather than the negatives. I couldn’t hear some of the bits I was interested in very well because of some music or something playing in the background.
Welcome to Brexitland! 😒
Good job to put this on the table!
...think common sense has prevailed in this case, have said all along what a complete waste of money! so much better and cheaper to upgrade what's already there.
Have you watched the video? The “upgrades” that are being done instead of new infrastructure will in many cases provide no improvement, and sometimes result in less capacity than at present
When Tories build shit XD
At about 10 mins in to you video, there seems to be some cheesy Musak started, At that point I gave up.
Sorry it wasn't to your taste
@@DavidFrankal Regardless of taste, what was the point - it was just distracting.
You clearly invest a lot of time and effort into your videos, so why not invest in a new camera and microphone? The content is good, but the quality is sub standard for a channel of your size. I find it hard to hear your voice when you have music playing at the same time.
Thanks, I am planning on doing exactly that in the coming months!
@@DavidFrankal I very much look forward to it! Hope you've had a good Christmas, and happy new year.
Dreadful sound and awful jingle playing behind voice. Otherwise I am sure it was ok, but I gave up…..
Britain's got one of the best rail services in the world already. Our trains run fast, efficient, convenient services almost anywhere in the country. But unless Europe we are overcrowded. 55 million people live in between the Humber and the Solent. Our land is criss crossed by motorways, roads, rail tracks, airport runways, etc etc. Many of us do not live in cities and should not put up with another scar in our land so that townies can spare 20 mins off their journeys, should we?. IT is unfair and IT destroys our environment.
Most of us do live in cities however, and it’s nothing to do with journey times. Capacity into and out of our cities is way too little to deal with the demand seen right now. And let’s not kid ourselves, between Manchester and Leeds, so called “fast” services average 36mph. They’re frequently heavily overcrowded, as I can say from experience, and whilst somewhat frequent, they’re nothing compared to where they should be as they cannot deal with demand.
Any nation who is building conventional rail on rail national networks is loosing in the future. England should be connecting all their large and medium sized cities with hyperloop and conventional rail should be used (if at all) to connect to the towns not connected.
Hyperloop 🤣
Hyperloop, UK will never build it ever. 😂
What is wrong with Mag-Lev?
Probably would of been cheaper between London and Birmingham and Manchester then the proposed HS2. Atleast it could of been elevated, and much quicker then the WCML and the proposed HS2.
Hyperloop is still being tested in Japan and Germany last I heard and won't be operational anytime soon, the hyperloop as to be straight as possible without any bends, with speeds of up to 400mph.
HS2 is the ultimate pointless project. We live on a tiny island - nowhere is very far from anywhere, and conventional rail at 140mph would be more than adequate.
With the rise of working from home, the need for passenger rail will drop off, and it isn't coming back. Guarantee HS2 will never pay for itself or hit the passenger projections, just like HS1 never has.
Railways are great, but they're Victorian technology best geared to freight.
That is the whole reason for HS2 is that the existing Rail Lines were designed in Victorian ties and it would cost more to upgrade exiting lines than build a new line and the bit about us living on an Island and that HS2 is pointless, well where does that put Japan in perspective, Japan is a small Island but they have loads of high Speed Rail linees.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 It would have cost a lot less to lengthen platforms and trains to 12 or 14 carriages to increase capacity. Outside a two hour window in the mornings, the trains run nearly empty. Capacity isn't a valid argument.
Japan is over 50% larger than the UK in landmass, and nearly double in population. There your comparison dies the death it deserves.
HS2 should be cut now. We must not suffer the "sunk cost fallacy". If it's such a brilliant scheme, the private sector will be keen to take it on at their risk. Guarantee there would be no takers.
@@chairmakerPete Do you know anything about Railways and operating them, first you just can't lengthen platforms due to the fact if you do that at major stations you then have to alter track work and signalling, you just can't extend trains from 8 to 14 coaches due to logistics of operations, signal sections and again track work. both the West Coast Main Line (WCML) and East Coast Main Line (ECML) have both had work to try and lift their speed limits and after millions of pounds spent , total disruption and train delays the speed of both lines is only 125 MPH using Pendolinos on the WCML and new class 800 trains on the ECML no faster than a 40 year old HST train.
You just can not start altering a Victorian deigned Railway Network to handle new 250 mph trains as this would cost a lot more than a new line in total rebuild causing imence disruption to train services for years, to handle these new trains a new Railway is required as what happened in Japan and France, in Japan in the early sixties they only had what is termed as Narrow Gauge lines which were not that fast, to improve their rail services they had to build a new Standard gauge Railway the length of Japan the Shinkansen line and it's famous Bullet Trains which is why the UK is building HS2 because the line from Birmingham to London is now at it's limits of service and is now causing problems with train services and you will have a trouble cutting HS2 now as it is well under construction.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 you can do a lot for £110,000,000,000 - which is what we're spending on HS2 before those budgets inevitably inflate to two or three times that.
The problem with railways are all the ones you list. They're totally inflexible due to the lack of automation. This means trains are controlled by shining coloured lights at the driver and confining the train to fixed blocks which can only accommodate certain lengths of trains. In 2022!
The railway is a victim of its own failure to keep up with technology, to drive productivity, and to keep costs under control. It's a dinosaur in the space age.
When we have a driverless system that allows trains to run close together in moving blocks controlled by triplex automatic control systems (such as those which fly planes routinely) then we'll see capacity increased. Expanding that system will be far cheaper, and the result will be flexible, resilient to labour shortages and therefore useful.
That's the radical shift needed to make rail relevant beyond commutes of 30 - 40 miles.
Doing a Victorian railway but quicker is the epitome of polishing a turd.
If HS2 was to be a showpiece of such automation, it might be worth it. But no - it'll be an old-school system, albeit with signals in cab. When that's seen as progress, the industry needs to die.
@@chairmakerPete What crap !!!
Spending £100+ billion to save 10 mins London to Manchester is not value for money and should be cancelled with immediate effect.
I'm glad you watched the video and were able to get to grips with some of the real complexities of this issue!
@@DavidFrankal Thank you David and I do enjoy listening to what you have to say.
as has been said a million times, HS2 was intended as a capacity increase project, the speed improvements are not the point.
But spending it to increase capacity (which is the main reason) IS - the faster journey times are just a byproduct!
@@jack_elliott Then build a normal line and reduce the costs. It will only run at high speed for just 68 miles anyway.