As requested, some time stamps! History of the West Coast Mainline 0:26 Avoiding High Speed Rail (APT & Pendolinos) 2:09 The Route 3:26 Phases of opening 7:16 Service Patterns 9:03 Northern Powerhouse Rail 11:45 Midlands Rail Hub 13:24 Heathrow Spur 14:00 HS1 Link 14:16 Gareth Dennis Criticism Segment 15:14
I would like to fully and unreservedly apologise for my map of the existing West Coast Mainline - in rushing the labelling I did indeed label Edinburgh & Glasgow the wrong way around.
There is heavy speculation that the eastern section of HS2 will not be built - the existing ECML and uprated Birmingham to East Midlands line and MML, will do the job just as well. Also that it will not get further north than Crewe, giving one *slow* line from London to Crewe. Then only classic compatible trains will need to be bought.
Yeah, I even noticed despite being a knuckle dragging American who pronounces Edinburgh as Ed-in-beRg. But the video is great despite that minor mistake we all get to tease you for. Looking forward to more content.
Although the LGV Paris - Lyon line is more famous, leading people to believe it was the first such line in Europe, the Rome - Florence Direttissima actually takes that title, partially opening in 1977. Otherwise, an informative video
What a brilliantly researched and presented video. Very very informative, and the presentation was absolutely awesome. Well done young man. I'm very impressed.
As soon as the Continental link was scrapped and the London to B'ham section was slow, takes 52 mins, averaging 116mph, the *whole HS2 scheme should have been canned.*
There should be 3 main lines. One from London to Edinburgh via Cambridge Peterborough, York and Newcastle. Another from London to Leeds via Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield. And the last from London to Glasgow via Birmingham and Manchester. This really isn’t an unrealistic ask
@@scottwhitley3392 We already have them called the WCML, ECML and MML. Greengauge21 consultants, Beyond HS2: _"Upgrading the East Coast Main Line to 140 mph operation as a high priority alongside HS2 and to be delivered without delay. Newcastle London timings across a shorter route_ *_could closely match those achievable by HS2."_* www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Beyond_HS2WEB.pdf
@@johnburns4017 The problem with "beefing up the existing mainlines" is that the Train Operating Companies demand paths for express trains that blow the possibility of having more stopping services out of the water. All UK railways need to be renewed (with electric power and modern signalling) but we also need to move intercity services onto a new high speed network, to: • Get them out of the way of local commuters (and freight) and • Give people a viable alternative to domestic airlines, so that we can start to kill off the air industry.
@@DavidShepheard Having *two* _dedicated_ fast tracks on mainlines means that express trains only run on those two fast tracks, leaving slow traffic alone. It is quite simple. They are separated. Hydrogen fuel cell and battery trains will preclude mass line electrification. Fare paying hydrogen trains are operational in Germany.
Great long video. This is much better than what the BBC and Channel 4 make of the scheme. I’ve watched it a few times as the service patterns are interesting to see. Of course this is much more than linking London and Birmingham. The London to Glasgow service for example takes so long to reach the first stop at Warrington, so HS2 will speed this journey up. I feel that Crossrail should be extended to Tring (maybe Milton Keynes) to make use of the Paddington terminators and to free up platform space at Euston. I liked that proposal from a while back so it’s a shame that it’s been shelved.
Thank you! Indeed the Tring terminators would make sense once HS2 is completed (making use of some of the freed up capacity). Hopefully it gets revisited in the future.
@@DavidFrankal Tring is pretty unique as having six platforms so ideal for terminating more services (I used to work in Kings Langley). I can't think of a more remote station that has as many!
It really helps to have a good video to make sense of it all, but I am concerned that HS2 won't do much for Leeds and the Pennine route. There is definitely a lot of free platform space at Leeds, with packed 2-4 carriage commuter trains that the new TP trains don't begin to solve. I hope to see either longer or more frequent trains on what would really be a profitable route if managed right. (Time to watch your video on why Northern is failing now.... *groan* I hope not more misery from the pacers)
We could have had this decades ago. The original plan for the Eurostar was to terminate in Manchester along its own dedicated high speed line. They even built the sheds for it, which were then later used for the Metrolink when the government decided not to bother with anything north of Watford. As they often do.
Eurostar trains were due to run North to Manchester, but the plan was to use the West Coast Mainline, not to build a dedicated line just for the Eurostar!
Nicely presented, detailed but not confusingly so. Thanks for all your effort to simplify the whole plan. Here's to it being FULLY built ASAP. Also look forward to you making further updates
I really enjoyed your explanation of HS2 David, especially the Devil’s Advocate questioning. I never had really looked at it, living in Australia, but there is much for us to learn to unravel the problem our cities have with rather terrible regional rail corridors out of our major cities. The way HS2 unlocks the whole system is fascinating, rather than a stand alone system, which is how high speed is sold in Australia.
What HS2 Ltd are saying is that transfer intercity trains to HS2, then there is more capacity on the exiting network. The point is that the UK doe not have a capacity problem. Any future problem can be dealt with by the exiting network and that includes reusing closed line. High speed rail is not worth when the distance are too short, or too long. The only distances worth it are to Scotland. But HS2 only runs to about half way to Scotland before they train then runs onto existing tracks. They run on the existing tracks _slower,_ as classic compatible trains do not tilt. But Scotland is well served by air to London already - and faster than rail, and HS2. We are moving towards hybrid electric planes for short trips. So, this 50 year old French technology will be obsolete before it is fully operational.
@@johnburns4017 You have never watched the WCML between Rugby and London then! That line is completely saturated with trains and capacity has run out. Other lines will go the same way soon. It's not just the WCML that's helped, it's the ECML and MML too.
@@hairyairey ♦ The bottlenecks can be removed. Look at my post telling you where they are; ♦ Currently the 110mph trains hold up the faster 125mph trains; ♦ Have fast trains running at least 140mph; ♦ Remove points leaving only essential points to maintain speeds; ♦ The WCML can have two extra tracks south of Rugby, by reopening the 40 mile Gt.Central trackbed from Rugby to the Aylesbury bypass giving two extra fast tracks into Old Oak Common. orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/42580/wcml-capacity-report-2020.pdf
@@johnburns4017 125mph is the sight limit for drivers being able to stop at the furthest light they can see. Trains going above that speed use in cab signalling (only HS1 has that ability). But everything on the line would have to use that signalling. Even then, with the two other competing demands on our lines (local commuter trains and freight) increasing the speeds only reduces capacity for other trains. Your two extra tracks south of Rugby are going exactly where? Through infrastructure already being built for HS2 of course. And relieving the pressure on the WCML, ECML and MML? Hardly.
@@hairyairey Look up the Gt.Central. The WCML and ECML do not have dedicated fast tracks for 140mph. If so, and it can be done, HS2 is not needed at all.
There has been a proposal to build the Manchester Piccadilly station in a tunnel, that continues towards leeds. This would improve connections AND also save hundreds of millions of pounds.
But it would completely abandon the East Midlands, preventing Midlands Connect from ever happening, and crippling the number of services that would be able to run on HS3/NPR when its built
Just to add a bit of a different perspective. I cringe when people say the money should be used to upgrade the existing network. There is a lack of appreciation that the existing cuttings and embankments on much of the network were formed over a hundred years ago, with a much limited understanding of geotechnics and engineering geology. The methods and materials of thst time mean that there is considerable amount of remediation that has to take place in order to stop embankments and cuttings failing, which is an ongoing cost that is only likely to increase. Furthermore, whilst the materials below the trackbed might be OK for a steam train running at 100mph, or even a diesel at 125mph, problems start occuring as train speeds increase, not only is a concrete trackbed required but the soils below the track bed need to be suitably competent. The engineering required to make the existing track suitable, and future proofed for even higher speeds, could be way more expensive than building a completely new track. The UK is in someways unfortunate in terms of it having one of the earlist rail networks, whereas other countries, especially those that had to rebuild from the late 40s onward, benefited from a more modern understanding of such problems. Modernisation has to come in somewhere if the network is to survive. Don't get me wrong though, I also cringe at the thought of any woodland disappearing and hope it is being offset correctly and limited where possible.
You raise some good points but that is not necessarily what people mean when they talk about up-grading the existing network. They could be referring to signalling or level crossing equipment, improving track layout or geometry, doubling or adding passing loops to tracks, re-opening lines that have been closed or moth-balled. The list goes on...
The thing about connecting HS1 and HS2 by having trains reverse at St Pancras is that it would make it seem like they might as well have used St Pancras as the HS2 terminus to start with. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when they announced that it would be at Euston instead, because even if there wasn't a physical link between the lines, using St Pancras would at least have provided a same station interchange between them!
Such a WASTED OPPORTUNITY not to link with HS1 to an Ashford International Terminus via Straford International. It's such a faff travelling from Kent to south London, using the tube to north London, getting on a train from Euston.
Depends if the demand is there or not for through services. There is already a rail line between Kings Cross and Euston that's used for freight. Which bizarrely means a lot of freight goes from Felixstowe into London and back out because of the shortage of cross-country lines - something that Beeching completely overlooked as an issue. The varsity line should have been protected, if only it was just the trackbed.
It just wouldn't be a (modern) British engineering project, if it did. (It's a good thing we've left the EU. All that joined-up European logical thinking has spoiled you. :P)
Thank you for the video. I've been trying for a while to understand how exactly trains would operate on this HSR network, but your explanations has put everything on perspective.
Why would a Steam engine run on the HS2 line, for a start the signaling on HS2 is not compatible with signalling equipment on the Flying Scotsman Steam Loco, on Flying Scotsman it uses signal detection equipment for semaphore signalling and colour light signalling, but HS2 is being built using in cab signaling which does not have signals at the side of the track like conventional Railways but uses radio technology lie on TGV lines in France and HS1 in Kent.
No need to go china. Italy and Spain, two of the most corrupt western european countries have somehow managed to build some of the fastest railways in the world, I think even faster than Japan. One reason why Italy, Spain China can do this is cuz the density between cities isnt as high as in the UK or Germany or the Benelux for example. But there are many other reasons of course, every country is different in many ways.
Hi David, I enjoyed your video, thank you. I have my own thoughts and opinions on HS2 but it is nice to see someone trying to put across various points of view on this subject. (I also appreciated your Berlin train system videos, I always wondered how that worked 😊) I liked that you tried to 'play the Devil's advocate' and get across points and counterpoints. I hope you get time in the future to put out similar videos as things progress and you can put across the different views of this scheme with objective and critical thought toward them. I am slightly appalled by some of the comments that have been made on this video, from the unnecessary personal attacks, which seem pathetic and you appear to have handled, to the one-sided arguments that appear to have come from people who have found 'sources' that only reinforce their viewpoint, rather than any objective reasoning. A difficult subject to broach and I hope none of that has put you off doing anything further on this, personally would be interested to see it.
You can take examples from China really, building a lot of major high speed rail parallel to existing lines. China don’t have a lot of railway commuting, so it is almost entirely long distance passenger and freight. Once the passengers can be moved to the high speed lines, the freight volume along the existing line can double or triple.
China is not the best comparison to the UK though. The state have far more powers to build what they like, where they like because there is no private land ownership in China.
How can passengers be moved to the High Scandal 2 line when it goes so fast it cannot stop at the existing intercity station they might want to get off at?! You will still need the intercity trains, won't you? So what is the point of High Scandal 2?
The bit about Aberystwyth benefiting from HS2 freeing up capacity was a real eye opener. I'd only considered the lines where it'll directly free up capacity - I never thought about the lines that feed into them, which actually includes an awful lot of the country if you think about it! Put it this way, relieving Birmingham alone will affect pretty much the entire Cross Country network, which stretches all the way from Aberdeen to Penzance! Similarly, the extra capacity on the WCML south of Crewe benefits Chester and North Wales, while the relief of the MML and ECML benefits South Yorkshire, Derbyshire and the East Midlands, as well as some parts of East Anglia
Won't speed up services on those branch-lines, or make them more attractive as would reinstating missing, but highly useful links, closed due to Beeching. Also, hardly 'green' to encourage more people to make long distance journeys. The South West will not be affected and neither will it benefit Aberdonians travelling to Edinburgh or Newcastle etc. Also, 225mph is great, but linear motor Maglev trains offer superior ride quality and 300mph plus performance. Incidentally, we pioneered the linear motor and produced a viable prototype as far back as 1976 (c.f. Modern Railway, December 1976).
@@davidjenner5665 But Maglev trains aren't compatible with existing infrastructure! And reinstating old lines would feed even more traffic onto the already congested existing network, so it's much better to build HS2 first so it can free up capacity for that traffic!
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz The only capacity that HS2 frees up is that between London and Birmingham already served by two fast routes from Marylebone taking around 1.30 Minutes Unless you are going direct and swapping to HS2 there is additional capacity. The HS2 blurb about an additional 22000 per hour is hogwash, as its non stop between the two, Anyone wanting to go ANYWHERE in betyween have not got the extra capacity, except for the minority travelling all the way to Brum who can afford the extra fares needed.
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz Except they havent! The only extra capacity is between London and Birmingham Non stop. It won't take any trains off the WCML that currently stop at intermediate stations or those going elsewhere, If I currently commute to Milton Keynes, Rugby or Aylesbury for example there's hardly any difference. Because even though they are "on the way one still has to go to Marylebone or elsewhere to get there, and the numbers don't fall doing so, nor are there any extra seats except for those who choose to go direct to Brum on HS2, currently less than 1 % of rail passengers in and out of London..
Very informative video! The United States is in a similar situation as they also avoided building a dedicated high speed line until now, and used High Speed trainsets on existing, outdated infrastructure. The US government is trying to construct the California High Speed Rail system, which is about the same size if not larger than HS2, but is constantly delayed due to funding problems, protests from anti-HSR groups and political deadlock.
I think the USA also has a cultural hurdle to overcome in the next decade of getting people out of cars and onto trains, outside of the large cities its not that common compared with Asia and Europe.
@@danielcoward3469 Absolutely. That is another major factor regarding rail transportation in the US. I also have a railroad news series, the Pensyfan Periodical, which goes over railway news articles from around the world including HS2 and other events in the US, UK and more.
Plus California High Speed Rail happened to Engage WSP and particular Roy Hill who has been dismissed from the project due to serious conflicts of interest and procurement irregularities along with installing a culture of fear in regards to reporting the truth. And who was in charge of HS2 for a period and who did the current CEO of HS2 used to work for and what organisation has benefited hugely from HS2 for a number of years. If the DFT had any gumption at all they would look closely at some of the procurement and ongoing Variations to contracts that HS2 is managing and question some of the reasons behind HS2 and a number of the very Senior Staff .
California HSR has been sued endlessly. Californian environmental law allows private property owners to take the project to court under the guise of environmentalism, but it’s been used by NIMBYs to slow property acquisition. The most expensive aspect of these projects is time: over a decade in the HSR authority STILL doesn’t own 100% of the land they need for the Phase 1, Central Valley portion linking Bakersfield, Fresno and Merced. Getting that train through the more populated areas in later phases is a fool’s errand given the tsunami of lawsuits that would come in. Sad. People don’t understand if we were building the interstate highway system there right now it’d be the same over budget mess.
For HS2 railways the longest tunnel project the Ireland side the mostly build from Belfast - Dundalk - Dublin (the Irish Railways and NI Railways coorporations megaproject for HS2 cross-border high-speed trains in Ireland)
fm 1055 Not sure what a “constant worker” is? Mainly refers to anyone with management responsibility of Crossrail huge overspend and delay. Comment would not relate to the chaps physically doing the work. Please explain. J
Boxing Fan Musical Chairs, sums up British economy. To have a thriving car industry required Japanese Management and structures, British workforce on the line, says a lot. J
The InterCity services (eg Manchester - London) will be moved over to HS2, so you won't exactly have much choice. Prices will be within the existing fare structure (not a two-tier system)
@@DavidFrankal MK to Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow will still be on the WCML. Train companies have said they will still want to run trains on the WCML with a few stops. So, Liverpool or Manchester to London will still be on the WCML with some stops between, which HS2 cannot do. The intermediate stops are the attraction.
Thats a negatory. NY and NJ cant agree on it. I, as a taxpayer of the proud state of Oklahoma, can't figure why am I suppose to pay for a tunnel so a buncha liberals can go to their fancy glassy offices at fuck-know-how-many-storied building to make wage higher, than an honest working christian American, by doing absolutely nothing of value.
@@johnburns4017 Trolling aside - I'm actually not sure why an average american suppose to pay for a tunnel in ONE city out of their tax money. NY and NJ should pay for this.
So much progress can be made with infrastrucutre, power and the environment if people stop getting so badly misinformed by the media. Infractrucure costs time and money, but it contributes so much more.
For most English speakers, the name for the letter is pronounced as /eɪtʃ/ and spelled "aitch" or occasionally "eitch". The pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and the associated spelling "haitch" is often considered to be h-adding and is considered nonstandard in England.
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Why is green, low carbon high speed rail that will cut domestic air travel, take cars off the roads and create thousands of jobs a waste of money? Also, it will most likely get past Birmingham as Phase 2a to Crewe will probably get Royal Assent by the end of the year.
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 HS2 isn't 'for the rich'. It will cost around the same as it does now to travel by train. It will be for anyone to use. What I am trying to say is HS2 will be low carbon as soon as it opens and will be capable of net zero operation. It is not HS2's reponsibility as to where it sources its electricity. That will be the Department of Energy. This thread should help you out: twitter.com/HS2ltd/status/1289223951026028546?s=19
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Compared to cars, and domestic air travel it is very green which is why we should be investing in high speed rail more to get people out of their cars and off domestic flights onto low carbon high speed rail. Also, hopefully by the time HS2 opens, we will have a lot more renewable energy sources in the UK
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Rail travel in the UK emits around 8g of CO2 per passenger per kilometre. A car with 4 passengers emits around 40g of CO2 per passenger per kilometre.
The way to electrify routes with less disruption is to build two pairs of electrified tracks rather than over arching the catenary across all four tracks, so where four tracks exist, electrify them in pairs, so while working on up down slow, up down fast can be used and vice versa, where four tracks are required but only two exist, you build the new route alongside with wires over a pair of tracks and then once finished, use that track while electrifying the remaining track, so many parts of our network require four tracks where there is bottle neck - north of Leeds - through Oxford Road - South of Newcastle for example - by laying two tracks alongside that you electrify as a pair you can then utilise that pair once finished while electrifying the second pair
Wow! What a cool video where we learn a lot of things! Just one thing that I heared, actually, the first Pendolino was already created by Fiat when the APT was planned. Just because I heared it; Thanks you for this!
Thanks for the interesting overview. Yet you didn't get the prestory right. Separate highspeed lines don't have anything to do with in cap signaling. France and especially Germany have upgraded existing lines to run 200, 220 or even 230 km/h which is well over the limit of traditional signaling of 160 km/h. Still they haven't upgraded all regional or freight stock, the lines just provide both in cap and traditional signaling. By the way, that's also true for almost all dedicated high speed lines in Germany. Traditional signaling is used as a backup system or to run slower trains. Only just recently Germanys state railway ditched this redundancy for the latest high speed line. That one is fitted with the European ETCS instead which can also provide in cap signaling. The real reasons for separate high speed lines are safety issues. In Germany it is not allowed to pass a platform with speeds of over 200 km/h unless you install some platform edge barriers. In that case you can go up to 230 km/h, but there's only one single line making use of this exception. More than 230 km/h always requires separate tracks for the platforms. The other problem has to do with the shockwave a highspeed train pushes in front of it, especially in tunnels. They can damage freight trains and passengers trains have to be air tight to avoid harming the passengers.
I definitely could have worded that better. The in-cab signalling problem was an example of a problem the UK had - my broader point was that France and Germany got around 'problems like this' by building high speed rail. Anyway, you've thought me some things I didn't know about high speed rail in Germany, so thank you!
@@DavidFrankal He wrote: _"Separate highspeed lines don't have anything to do with in cap signaling. France and especially Germany have upgraded existing lines to run 200, 220 or even 230 km/h "_ Recall that nearly 40 years ago the APT was designed to run at 155mph on _existing_ track. Remove bottlenecks on the ECML and WCML, have two dedicated fast tracks with few points, uprated signalling and faster trains, then we have it. Trains get faster and faster. Train technology has overtaken the 50 year old French technology of HS2.
The brits sure do love having major cities on dead-end branch lines. Makes no sense at all to me, but if saving a few quid means more than building a rail network that makes sense I guess I can kinda see why.
@@johnburns4017 While I think some aspects are somewhat crazy, the basic idea is solid. The tracks are full as is. New tracks are needed. Segregate out a service type that has a clearly different speed than the others is the best option for that. Thus: HSR. that part is great. Terminal stations, I just don't get. The planned HSR here in Sweden goes into Norrköping which could have had a terminal station but instead has a station that's basically on a sort of loop. both the existing line, and the planned new station does that. It does look awesome IMO play.norrkoping.se/animering-upphojt-resecentrum
@@GustavSvard The existing lines are *not* full. *HS2 is a highly flawed design, as high speed railway.* ♦ HS2 is *slow.* London to Birmingham is 100 miles exactly. It take 52 minutes for the trip, the times cannot be improved. That is an average of 116mph on a 250mph railway. This is the prime section of the railway. No kidding. ♦ From the outset HS2 will be full to capacity to the point the city of Chester and the Liverpool to Birmingham trains have been bumped off onto snail rail. So, HS2 cannot cope with intercity traffic, its prime reason to exist. ♦ One of the prime points was that British provincial cities would be connected _"directly"_ to the Continent. They will not be, making the project redundant. ♦ HS2 does not connect with the connecting services at New St in Birmingham having a separate dead-end stand alone station where people have to drag their bags along a street in the rain between stations. ♦ It does not run into Birmingham airport with passengers having to take a ride to the terminal. ♦ It will have a separate station at Manchester airport to the existing station being one mile north west of the terminal needing a bus ride in. ♦ It enters Manchester via a 7.5 mile very expensive gold plated tunnel into Piccadilly which faces the wrong way, after negotiating an S bend around Tatton which slow the train down substantially. Victoria station is ignored which faces the right way. No kidding. ♦ HS2 is only two-track from London to Crewe, when this section serving the big cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh should be 4-track to accommodate all services between these cities and London and also the cities of Chester and Stoke. ♦ Liverpool, a city region of around 2.2 million has 'no' direct HS2 line into the city. The city needs a new HS2 line to alleviate the existing lines for the new container terminal expansion and the forced movement to rail from road for environmental reasons. Liverpool is the only deep water port on that coast taking the largest ships in the world, serving all the North of England and further afield. It is everyone's port in the North and Midlands needing highly efficient rail links to improve business giving quicker and cheaper freight. Liverpool is also to expand as major cruise liner terminal is being built, needing top quality passenger rail for north of England cruisers direct top the waterfront. ♦ Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds have expensive dead-end branches off the main spine into these cities, which will have dead-end stations. ♦ Derby & Nottingham are served by Toton between the two. Centre to centre from London is quicker by existing rail, so Toton is an expensive waste. ♦ Birmingham to Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield can match HS2 times by electrifying and uprating the existing lines.
This High Speed UK was a far better idea. All it needs is one Line from London to Edinburgh up the flat lands of the east of the country, branching into the Liverpool-Hull NPR line. NPR needs to be 4-track and 250mph capable, to reach Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool *fast,* with a fast _base_ tunnel under the Peninnes. www.highspeeduk.co.uk
@@johnburns4017 The West Coast Main Line being clogged up with express trains means that regional trains are restricted to 2/3 per hour despite passenger numbers on the stopper routes between Coventry and Birmingham N St doubling in ten years. On the other side of Birmingham, the service pattern is 6 per hour, because it's not on the WCML. Services are also often delayed to allow the express trains with priority to use the line. How do you propose to fix that? Funny how you see the benefits of a HS2 for Liverpool but not for Birmingham! I'm not sure what the issue is with dead-end branches. The purpose of HS2 is to connect up major cities, of course it terminates at cities. Would you prefer if it was one line from London to Leeds with no spures and no linkage to exisiting network? You cannot add HS2 to Birmingham New Street unless you want to ramp up the cost significantly. The existing WCML doesn't run directly to Birmingham Airport either, you take a people mover or a 5 minute walk, which is absolutely fine. It takes just as long as traversing around large London Underground stations anyway. I agree that HS2 should be connected to HS1, but there are ways for that to be done in the future.
Great explanation. Living on the WCML but in the local Birmingham area, it's frustrating that the local stopper is only 2 per hour (covid timetable is 1 per hour), all because there's too many London bound or Manchester bound express services on the route. I haven't checked yet but I'm assume that with the reduced service pattern on the WCML post hs2, more trains could stop for commuters. Although by the time this comes we might also have the midland metro here so who knows.
The West Midlands Rail Executive propose increases of the stopping services to 4 per hour at (while still having semi-fast services on top of that) after phase 2b and then 6 per hour after upgrades that can happen after the WCML through Birmingham takes a more regional character (and so can have weekend closures for works and so on). Phase 1+2a benefits seem to be about changing the local service on the Birmingham-International-Coventry side of things from overlapping hourly patterns to regular half-hourly patterns. It's all here www.westmidlandsrail.com/strategy/wmris/ There's other plans too from bodies that have a say, but they are pretty similar in what they propose.
Sick of all the crazy complaints every time something needs updating in this country, no matter if it’s a vital airport or motorway or comically outdated rail infrastructure. Obviously this is needed and has been for decades, just get it built already
@Amtsf Is that really worth £70/100 billion How about spending that amount on extending the existing motorway network upgrade the A1 to the the North East and A38 to Plymouth and beyond there are many such schemes that can be undertaken which will benefit many more people than that damned white elephant and boondangle and btw i agree this country has been starved of infrastructure projects for at least thirty years the main reason is because we have been paying for everyone elses through the EU those airports and brand new motorways in Spain and Greece don't pay for themselves you know.
@@marcbiff2192 holy moly some shit just poured out of your mouth. Firstly, this video literally explained why HS2 should be built. Second, do you just ignore all the funding we got from the EU, and do you ignore that now going back to governing everything our self, it's actually going to cost us more than what we payed out to the EU? I'd love to hear more about how we funded the Spanish motor way
A couple of things: -Why operate the trains at 360 kph? China and France saw that running trains above 320 kph significantly increased energy consumption so they don't do it. -I understand that HS2 won't connect to HS1, I know very few people will ride daily between Birmingham and Paris for example but why wouldn't there be people doing that? Maybe Brexit poses a problem? -Also I don't know how much the UK is in need of a freight rail upgrade but maybe consider to build certain sections of the HS line as a hybrid freight and passenger like some lines in Spain and France to bypass a city or a certain area for example. -Lastly I hope that HS2 happens but the frequency and pricing of the trains would need to be quite steep so that it's not just for the elite business traveller as this project costs a lot of public money and regular people need to be able to use it as well. Pricing like most tickets on the ICE services in Germany would be more than fair.
This is a great video David and explains a pile of things I haven't found elsewhere. Thanks for putting it all together :) While timings are easy to find for the full HS2 lines, I have never seen anything for the hybrid lines (for want of a better term). I was wondering if you had estimated timings for the lines that used shared resources, like this first map you have for phase 1 (6 trains an hour), phase 2 (the 10 trains per hour) and especially the final one which shows the 17 trains per hour (e.g. how long will the Liverpool Lime St to Euston take, with part of the route using existing existing lines or how long from Sheffield to Euston)?
In Germany the ICEs have some dedicated high speed lines but the majority runs on the standard lines shared with slower trains. Those run between 100 and 120 mph, most of the time in my experience.
120 miles per hour is fast for British standards, we have most of our trains in the north going maximum 75 or 90 and in the south 90, 100 or 110 on rare occasions but on My Local Line, the South-western Main Line, my local train usually didn't break 60!
A clear and informative video. However HS2 has now become a vastly expensive white elephant that, in a post covid-19 age of working at home and meetings on Zoom, will now never achieve the required passenger volumes to be viable. With little business use and most leisure users having already been driven out by the ridiculous and rising cost of rail travel, it is hard to see a case for continuing the HS2 project.
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz I think the costs are at £8bn so far. Combination of compulsory purchase orders, design and a smidge of construction. Whilst they would get a lump if that back from selling property the money lost to cancel now would be unforgivable.
@@richardschofield2201 Don't forget John Bishop (vocal critic of HS2) made £6.8 million selling his property on the route - www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47845861
And you can add later always lines far more nord...! It is a very first part hopefully....This creates vibes for lines to the North as well...It is a first step in green energy. And you need a total train revival, also for transport !!!
On many ICE lines in Germany you can also find freight Trains. Between München and Nürnberg even a regional Train is in service (the fastest RE in Germany, 200 km/h Vmax)
HS2 is justified, by HS2 Ltd and those on the gravy train on, 'capacity'. *The UK does not have a capacity problem.* They say capacity _may_ be a problem south of Rugby on the WCML. The WCML can have two extra track to Old Oak Common by reopening the 40 mile Rugby to Aylesbury section of the Gt.Central. This gives two extra _fast_ tracks to London. The ECML has half the traffic as the WCML. Any capacity problems can be solved using the existing network. Speed? that can be improved by having faster trains, not the 125mph slow junk we now have. The APT was designed to run at 155mph 35 years ago, _on existing tracks._ The Alstom Liberty runs at 180mph on existing tracks. Amtrack have ordered some. Remove the bottlenecks on the ECML and the WCML, with two dedicated fast tracks, running fast trains, then HS2 is not needed at all.
Also Pendolino trains consist I believe of 9 cars while they could be approx. 30 cars long like a Eurostar to solve capacity problems. Of course platforms would need to be longer with perhaps travelators to get more easily along the train to the required carriage.
@@Martindyna Exactly. Get the ECML & WCML up to 140mph on average - can go faster on some sections. With two dedicated _fast_ tracks with few points to keep speeds up and of course remove the bottlenecks, then have longer trains. Then *speed* and *capacity* is guaranteed. HS2 Ltd and their fanboys make out only HS2 trains can be long and fast. Which is complete nonsense of course.
@@johnburns4017 Oh we meet again with the rubbish you come out with, both the ECML and WCML were designed to take upto 13 coaches of Mk3 design only due to the length of platforms and sections between signals and can not be altered or the speed increased, you can not dedicate two fast tracks for these high speed trains as they are already used by LNER class 800 trains on the ECML and Pendilino's operated by Avanti West Coast on the WCML, so with out vast disruption for years and cancelled trains on these routes they can not be altered. The " Fanboys " of HS2 are correct in saying that the Railway and it's new station are being designed for 14 + coach trains ravelling at 230 mph which believe me is not nonsense but fact but you are talking nonsense with you strange ideas.
If the 18th path isn't allocated then maybe it could eventually be given to North Wales services if that line is ever electrified. Indeed, having it consist of two 200m trains could allow it to divide to serve two destinations, while attaching a portion to the other Liverpool train would give a total of three services an hour, so one each for Wrexham, Llandudno and Holyhead
A destruction of the countryside to allow a few businessmen to knock 5 mins off their journey, where to get to an actual station to catch this vanity project, will cause more pollution and road jams, whilst those on the route have their lives destroyed for years. We do not heed this Jose of a resin line
@@agent_605 there's nothing that can justify the amount of damage to the environment that is being done. Absolute disgrace. The government committed to being carbon neutral by 2050 and this delays that further (proven by HS2's own figures). The whole thing is ridiculous, should never be allowed to happen.
Jack Simmons The environmental damage is no worse than the Lower Thames Crossing motorway, which is only 15 miles long. Also, with the modal shift HSR encourages, there’s likely to be a huge reduction in carbon emissions thanks to HS2
@@agent_605 Most of the City is commuting over the internet right now. Travel for leisure? Is HS2 going to the south west of England or the coast of Wales? As for deliver goods HS2 might free capacity. We have roads to deliver things. Capacity problem for roads is mainly due to city dwellers using them as local roads. See for example say Cardiff.
clangerbasher Working from home is however less productive for the majority of jobs, and an investigation carried out in China found only 25% of office workers preferred working from home on a long term basis. Leisure travellers go all over the country, with London being the most popular destination. Roads are terrible for the environment, especially HGVs, even if someone made them electric they have the issue of tyre particulates.
HS2 is *SLOW.* It is exactly 100 miles from Euston to Curzon St in Birmingham. It takes 52 minutes to cover this 100 miles. My calculator says I cover that 100 miles at *116mph,* on a 250mph railway. It cannot go any faster. The London to Birmingham section is the prime section of HS2. As soon as HS2 was slow from London to Birmingham, the Heathrow station was dropped and not connection to the Continent, the raison d'etre ceased to exist for HS2. Then it should have been dropped immediately.
John you keep saying HS2 will average 116 MPH, get your facts right, the present Pendolino's do 125 MPH, the new train's that are being operated under Avanti West Coast / TransItalia of italy will be doing an average of at least 250 MPH.
@@johnburns4017 What is there to work out John, it may take 52 mins on a good day without any backlogs or hold ups due to freight or local trains, the speed between Birmingham and Rugby is an average of 90 MPH due to a two track line between Birmingham and Rugby, our trains will then only do 125 MPH from Rugby to London Euston. Your calculations must be wrong as the New HS2 line is designed with only two stops between Birmingham and Curzon Street, they are Birmingham International and Old Oak Common and not all trains will stop at these stations and from the outset will be travelling from end to end at around 250 MPH so basically 250 MPH of HS2 against 90 /125 MPH of the WCML, I do believe HS2 comes up the winner in time taken in all accounts, I think you need to check your calculations as HS2 is going to be a hell of a lot faster than the WCML.
@@johnburns4017 My you sound a nasty piece of stuff, how dare you insult me son, I am into railways as a hobby and live in Birmingham right next to HS2 I couldn't care less what your average speed crap is about, if as you Calculations were correct and HS2 averaged 116 MPH that makes a WCML pendelino average 60 MPH, What utter rubbish. Believe it or not read all the info on HS2 including their official Videos from HS2 limited the SPEED these trains will do is around 250 MPH, nothing to do with averages, it is fact as stated by HS2 limited and it will be quicker between Birmingham and London, and John , DO NOT BE SO BLOODY INSULTING MATE it makes you look silly in these comments. I suggest you look at the video again or are you a NIMBY and can not take or understand progress, AND DO NOT CALL BE BOY mate .
Minimised environmental impact? You are having an absolute laugh. Our countryside is being desecrated at this very moment. This is an excellent HS2 propaganda video, but extremely poor in portraying the reality of the HS-teamroller white elephant.
I guess we could just build another bunch of 8 lane motorways instead which require far more space and have a much larger impact given the vast, vast majority of vehicles using them will be belching out CO2 from their internal combustion engines. Or we can use high speed, high capacity trains that run entirely on electric and this will be more and more offset by the fact we're becoming less reliant on fossil fuel sources. The point of this is to take traffic OFF the roads, locally and nationally, by making it quicker and easier to go between population centres and for local train services to improve their services by not having to share their track with these kind of trains as they do right now. The current network is at or near capacity, it won't last much longer. It's already affected along the entire west coast if there's a single issue anywhere along it so this is very much needed.
@@TalesOfWar or we could improve the existing rail network, using the money wasted on HS2 and avoid destroying huge tracts of countryside. HS2 is a vanity project designed to bale out failed Tory donor construction companies. Any environmental improvements as a result of HS2 are so far down the line there probably won't be a planet left to improve
@@kimcallaghan753 HS2 IS improving the EXISTING network! This argument is absolutely asinine, people use it all the time. How do you propose to "improve" the existing network without actually expanding it? It's already at capacity, the intercity links need their own dedicated tracks so the local lines can be used... for LOCAL traffic. It'll effectively double or even triple the local service capacity in all the areas it'll remove express intercity services from sharing the track.
@@TalesOfWar Asinine? The existing network is designed for the carriage of cattle. By "improve" I mean make it fit for human travel. Better, longer carriages - oh yes, running vaguely on time. Mate, you need reassimilating outside of the Borg. Think outside of the rectangle.
@@kimcallaghan753 And yet again the whole thing went right over your head. Longer carriages need better and more track otherwise it bogs the network down even more as there's now less space for existing trains to use on the already crowded lines. So... separating the long distance intercity lines more from the local lines lets you do exactly this, while letting you put more services on the slower, local lines. It's not rocket science. Everything you want it to be is exactly what it's going to goddamn be.
I feel like the best classic compatible fleet should be the Hitachi class 385 "fishbowl". They are used on the "Scotrail Express" sub brand from Glasgow Queen Street- Edinburgh Waverley, stopping 4 times, taking 50 minutes.
The Hitachi A-Series which includes the 385, 395 and 80X are split into 4 segments AT100 = ~60mph _Metro_ (Currently unused in the UK) AT200 = ~100mph _Commuter_ (Class 385) AT300 = ~140mph _Intercity_ (Class 80X and Class 395) AT400 = ~200mph+ _High-Speed/Bullet_ (Possible HS2) The 385 is not structurally capable or able to handle the pressures of high speed, but Hitachi have more or less confirmed that their HS2 fleet (If they win) will end up being an AT400 meaning even more Shinkansen technology than the 80Xs
1960s Japan built the 515km Tokaido Shinkansen in 5 years. 2020s Britain will build half that distance with Phase 1 and 2a of HS2 in 10-13 years. All of HS2 combined will be only slightly longer than the Tokaido Shinkansen and won't be finished for at least another 15+ years providing that Phase 2 isn't delayed or cancelled.
in my transport fever 2 game I like to enjoy an laternative reality starting in 1965 where britain actually bothered to seperate it's HS and classic lines
Japan’s decision to build dedicated high-speed lines had everything to do with the narrow (3’6”) gauge of the national rail network and the frequently winding routes through mountainous terrain. In hindsight, it was fortuitous in terms of sheer speed and capacity, although it has led to issues where some high-speed stations don’t interface well with conventional lines (being placed on their own away from other lines, in order to avoid speed-limiting curves), hobbling overall connectivity.
Just getting a straight line in Japan was a major feat. A straight line can obviously have faster trains. The first Bullet train in 1963 was not particular fast. The line being straight and direct was the key.
John Burns and the uber ambitious Chuo Shinkansen Maglev will be even straighter and more direct, with 90% of its alignment being in tunnels. Holy shit. Tokyo to Nagoya in 40 minutes on the non-stop express service.
As requested, some time stamps!
History of the West Coast Mainline 0:26
Avoiding High Speed Rail (APT & Pendolinos) 2:09
The Route 3:26
Phases of opening 7:16
Service Patterns 9:03
Northern Powerhouse Rail 11:45
Midlands Rail Hub 13:24
Heathrow Spur 14:00
HS1 Link 14:16
Gareth Dennis Criticism Segment 15:14
Ur voice does me in
Please put this in the description for chapter breaks.
I would like to fully and unreservedly apologise for my map of the existing West Coast Mainline - in rushing the labelling I did indeed label Edinburgh & Glasgow the wrong way around.
They'll not be forgiving you quickly 😂😭
LOL
We do forgive it is ok
That is absolutely fine 😄! You made a brilliant video for the HS2 and I am thankful
It’s all good boo boo
CORRECTION: Hitachi and Bombardier are submitting a joint bid, not Alstom and Bombardier
And soon it'll technically be Hitachi and Alstom because Bombardier will most likely be merging with Hitachi
00:57
You annoyed A LOT of S Scots... Good lad!
Glasgow is on the West and Edinburgh on the East.
@@firepowerg A truly monumental cock-up!
Hitachi depot is near by Old Oaks anyway.
There is heavy speculation that the eastern section of HS2 will not be built - the existing ECML and uprated Birmingham to East Midlands line and MML, will do the job just as well. Also that it will not get further north than Crewe, giving one *slow* line from London to Crewe.
Then only classic compatible trains will need to be bought.
Apart from having Glasgow and Edinburgh wrong on the map, a really good and informative video!
Noooooo! That's super embarrassing 😖
@@DavidFrankal RIP
You can never visit Scotland again
Yeah, I even noticed despite being a knuckle dragging American who pronounces Edinburgh as Ed-in-beRg.
But the video is great despite that minor mistake we all get to tease you for.
Looking forward to more content.
They look alright to me. Edin on the right, Glas on the left.
Take UK 50 years to finally realize HS railways need their dedicated tracks
a late start, but welcome, imo, but this is a small part of what the UK should have had by now...
@@ce1834 If we had gone the way of Japan instead of the way of Beeching, who knows what kind of rail network we would have now?
We're not a country where the government is willing to invest in long term planning/spending. Housing crisis anyone?
@@hairyairey Maybe ICE 3 UK version
Gonna take America more than that
Although the LGV Paris - Lyon line is more famous, leading people to believe it was the first such line in Europe, the Rome - Florence Direttissima actually takes that title, partially opening in 1977. Otherwise, an informative video
All things HS2 succinctly explained - thank you!
What a brilliantly researched and presented video. Very very informative, and the presentation was absolutely awesome. Well done young man. I'm very impressed.
Hope I'll still be alive to see HS2 up and running. Good informative video.
Having no link to HS1 is ridiculous. International trains from Manchester and Birmingham would be great!
As soon as the Continental link was scrapped and the London to B'ham section was slow, takes 52 mins, averaging 116mph, the *whole HS2 scheme should have been canned.*
There should be 3 main lines. One from London to Edinburgh via Cambridge Peterborough, York and Newcastle.
Another from London to Leeds via Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield. And the last from London to Glasgow via Birmingham and Manchester.
This really isn’t an unrealistic ask
@@scottwhitley3392
We already have them called the WCML, ECML and MML.
Greengauge21 consultants, Beyond HS2: _"Upgrading the East Coast Main Line to 140 mph operation as a high priority alongside HS2 and to be delivered without delay. Newcastle London timings across a shorter route_ *_could closely match those achievable by HS2."_*
www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Beyond_HS2WEB.pdf
@@johnburns4017 The problem with "beefing up the existing mainlines" is that the Train Operating Companies demand paths for express trains that blow the possibility of having more stopping services out of the water.
All UK railways need to be renewed (with electric power and modern signalling) but we also need to move intercity services onto a new high speed network, to:
• Get them out of the way of local commuters (and freight) and
• Give people a viable alternative to domestic airlines, so that we can start to kill off the air industry.
@@DavidShepheard
Having *two* _dedicated_ fast tracks on mainlines means that express trains only run on those two fast tracks, leaving slow traffic alone. It is quite simple. They are separated.
Hydrogen fuel cell and battery trains will preclude mass line electrification. Fare paying hydrogen trains are operational in Germany.
Great long video. This is much better than what the BBC and Channel 4 make of the scheme. I’ve watched it a few times as the service patterns are interesting to see.
Of course this is much more than linking London and Birmingham. The London to Glasgow service for example takes so long to reach the first stop at Warrington, so HS2 will speed this journey up.
I feel that Crossrail should be extended to Tring (maybe Milton Keynes) to make use of the Paddington terminators and to free up platform space at Euston. I liked that proposal from a while back so it’s a shame that it’s been shelved.
Thank you! Indeed the Tring terminators would make sense once HS2 is completed (making use of some of the freed up capacity). Hopefully it gets revisited in the future.
@@DavidFrankal Tring is pretty unique as having six platforms so ideal for terminating more services (I used to work in Kings Langley). I can't think of a more remote station that has as many!
It really helps to have a good video to make sense of it all, but I am concerned that HS2 won't do much for Leeds and the Pennine route. There is definitely a lot of free platform space at Leeds, with packed 2-4 carriage commuter trains that the new TP trains don't begin to solve. I hope to see either longer or more frequent trains on what would really be a profitable route if managed right. (Time to watch your video on why Northern is failing now.... *groan* I hope not more misery from the pacers)
Great video - Gareth is always worth listening to, as well as yourself; the discussions in the comments are also illuminating
And rather exhausting !
Special request: Please actually watch the video before commenting. Thanks.
Nah, that would be too easy for people 😅
Absolutely not.
We could have had this decades ago. The original plan for the Eurostar was to terminate in Manchester along its own dedicated high speed line. They even built the sheds for it, which were then later used for the Metrolink when the government decided not to bother with anything north of Watford. As they often do.
Eurostar trains were due to run North to Manchester, but the plan was to use the West Coast Mainline, not to build a dedicated line just for the Eurostar!
Love this... Though I forgot that I was doing my best Tom Hanks Castaway impersonation when you interviewed me!
Nicely presented, detailed but not confusingly so. Thanks for all your effort to simplify the whole plan. Here's to it being FULLY built ASAP. Also look forward to you making further updates
I really enjoyed your explanation of HS2 David, especially the Devil’s Advocate questioning. I never had really looked at it, living in Australia, but there is much for us to learn to unravel the problem our cities have with rather terrible regional rail corridors out of our major cities. The way HS2 unlocks the whole system is fascinating, rather than a stand alone system, which is how high speed is sold in Australia.
What HS2 Ltd are saying is that transfer intercity trains to HS2, then there is more capacity on the exiting network. The point is that the UK doe not have a capacity problem. Any future problem can be dealt with by the exiting network and that includes reusing closed line.
High speed rail is not worth when the distance are too short, or too long. The only distances worth it are to Scotland. But HS2 only runs to about half way to Scotland before they train then runs onto existing tracks. They run on the existing tracks _slower,_ as classic compatible trains do not tilt.
But Scotland is well served by air to London already - and faster than rail, and HS2. We are moving towards hybrid electric planes for short trips. So, this 50 year old French technology will be obsolete before it is fully operational.
@@johnburns4017 You have never watched the WCML between Rugby and London then! That line is completely saturated with trains and capacity has run out. Other lines will go the same way soon. It's not just the WCML that's helped, it's the ECML and MML too.
@@hairyairey
♦ The bottlenecks can be removed. Look at my post telling you where they are;
♦ Currently the 110mph trains hold up the faster 125mph trains;
♦ Have fast trains running at least 140mph;
♦ Remove points leaving only essential points to maintain speeds;
♦ The WCML can have two extra tracks south of Rugby, by reopening the 40 mile Gt.Central trackbed from Rugby to the Aylesbury bypass giving two extra fast tracks into Old Oak Common.
orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/42580/wcml-capacity-report-2020.pdf
@@johnburns4017 125mph is the sight limit for drivers being able to stop at the furthest light they can see. Trains going above that speed use in cab signalling (only HS1 has that ability). But everything on the line would have to use that signalling.
Even then, with the two other competing demands on our lines (local commuter trains and freight) increasing the speeds only reduces capacity for other trains.
Your two extra tracks south of Rugby are going exactly where? Through infrastructure already being built for HS2 of course. And relieving the pressure on the WCML, ECML and MML? Hardly.
@@hairyairey
Look up the Gt.Central.
The WCML and ECML do not have dedicated fast tracks for 140mph. If so, and it can be done, HS2 is not needed at all.
Thanks for such a well put together and interesting video, hoping you get picked up for TV for this!
Absolutely amazing video that captures brilliantly the concept and need for HS2, 3, etc. and the bigger picture in 22 minutes - well done!
Excellent video. I've been following HS2 for a decade and this distills everything brilliantly. Thank you.
The bit about capacity is false.
@@johnburns4017 How?
@@TheWkc19
Easy to understand. *The bit about capacity is false.*
Got to be the best explanation of HS2 I have seen, great video.
There has been a proposal to build the Manchester Piccadilly station in a tunnel, that continues towards leeds. This would improve connections AND also save hundreds of millions of pounds.
But it would completely abandon the East Midlands, preventing Midlands Connect from ever happening, and crippling the number of services that would be able to run on HS3/NPR when its built
Just to add a bit of a different perspective. I cringe when people say the money should be used to upgrade the existing network. There is a lack of appreciation that the existing cuttings and embankments on much of the network were formed over a hundred years ago, with a much limited understanding of geotechnics and engineering geology. The methods and materials of thst time mean that there is considerable amount of remediation that has to take place in order to stop embankments and cuttings failing, which is an ongoing cost that is only likely to increase. Furthermore, whilst the materials below the trackbed might be OK for a steam train running at 100mph, or even a diesel at 125mph, problems start occuring as train speeds increase, not only is a concrete trackbed required but the soils below the track bed need to be suitably competent. The engineering required to make the existing track suitable, and future proofed for even higher speeds, could be way more expensive than building a completely new track. The UK is in someways unfortunate in terms of it having one of the earlist rail networks, whereas other countries, especially those that had to rebuild from the late 40s onward, benefited from a more modern understanding of such problems. Modernisation has to come in somewhere if the network is to survive. Don't get me wrong though, I also cringe at the thought of any woodland disappearing and hope it is being offset correctly and limited where possible.
I remember seeing that the _Tokaido Shinkansen_ uses conventional ballast instead of concrete trackbeds/ballastless designs though
You raise some good points but that is not necessarily what people mean when they talk about up-grading the existing network.
They could be referring to signalling or level crossing equipment, improving track layout or geometry, doubling or adding passing loops to tracks, re-opening lines that have been closed or moth-balled.
The list goes on...
Very informative and you also made it clear how the network will be rolled out, Thanks David
Excellent - best overview of HS2 and the historic background to the project I've seen or read - thank you.
The thing about connecting HS1 and HS2 by having trains reverse at St Pancras is that it would make it seem like they might as well have used St Pancras as the HS2 terminus to start with. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when they announced that it would be at Euston instead, because even if there wasn't a physical link between the lines, using St Pancras would at least have provided a same station interchange between them!
5:11 “dialect” I think you mean derelict :) also.. I think Crewe is now part of phase I.. great video though!!
This video was a great help to me, especially since I don't really understand the HS2 situation.
Fair play Gareth knows his stuff very good
Step 1) Go fast
Step 2) Avoid major cities
Step 3) Stop at the airport
Step 4) Extension to the tram system
Such a WASTED OPPORTUNITY not to link with HS1 to an Ashford International Terminus via Straford International.
It's such a faff travelling from Kent to south London, using the tube to north London, getting on a train from Euston.
Depends if the demand is there or not for through services. There is already a rail line between Kings Cross and Euston that's used for freight. Which bizarrely means a lot of freight goes from Felixstowe into London and back out because of the shortage of cross-country lines - something that Beeching completely overlooked as an issue. The varsity line should have been protected, if only it was just the trackbed.
@@hairyairey
Look at the Gt.Central.
Yes, much of this project is moronic.
But that is because Tories insist on privatization.
It just wouldn't be a (modern) British engineering project, if it did.
(It's a good thing we've left the EU. All that joined-up European logical thinking has spoiled you. :P)
@@misterjei there are many very pro train people who voted against the EU because of forced privatization.
Thank you for the video. I've been trying for a while to understand how exactly trains would operate on this HSR network, but your explanations has put everything on perspective.
Good to see a non-biased crisicism segment xD
Before you open the HS2 do a train with flying Scotsman to open the line
Why would a Steam engine run on the HS2 line, for a start the signaling on HS2 is not compatible with signalling equipment on the Flying Scotsman Steam Loco, on Flying Scotsman it uses signal detection equipment for semaphore signalling and colour light signalling, but HS2 is being built using in cab signaling which does not have signals at the side of the track like conventional Railways but uses radio technology lie on TGV lines in France and HS1 in Kent.
Meanwhile, as at the end of 2019 China had 22,000 miles of true high speed lines in operation.
But... China... Oh my farm and house have gone but on the upside there's a lovely quick connection to Chengdu!
@@djlondon7956 And a lot of compensation money in the bank.
@@John_259 did they?
But note: the railway is run at a loss, with heavy subsidy from the government. This has to make money over the next 100 years.
No need to go china. Italy and Spain, two of the most corrupt western european countries have somehow managed to build some of the fastest railways in the world, I think even faster than Japan. One reason why Italy, Spain China can do this is cuz the density between cities isnt as high as in the UK or Germany or the Benelux for example. But there are many other reasons of course, every country is different in many ways.
I think I’ve seen some of your videos,about different subjects, before, you give an excellent presentation, well done, and thanks👍👍👍
5:12
Yes, I noted that part of the old Curzon Street was looking rather dialect.
This is well informative and well edited.
Thank you!
Hi David, I enjoyed your video, thank you. I have my own thoughts and opinions on HS2 but it is nice to see someone trying to put across various points of view on this subject. (I also appreciated your Berlin train system videos, I always wondered how that worked 😊) I liked that you tried to 'play the Devil's advocate' and get across points and counterpoints. I hope you get time in the future to put out similar videos as things progress and you can put across the different views of this scheme with objective and critical thought toward them. I am slightly appalled by some of the comments that have been made on this video, from the unnecessary personal attacks, which seem pathetic and you appear to have handled, to the one-sided arguments that appear to have come from people who have found 'sources' that only reinforce their viewpoint, rather than any objective reasoning. A difficult subject to broach and I hope none of that has put you off doing anything further on this, personally would be interested to see it.
You can take examples from China really, building a lot of major high speed rail parallel to existing lines. China don’t have a lot of railway commuting, so it is almost entirely long distance passenger and freight. Once the passengers can be moved to the high speed lines, the freight volume along the existing line can double or triple.
Absolutely, China definitely has the best High Speed Trains, Japan's best with commuter and local trains.
I recall China saying previously that it'd be able to build HS2 in 5 years
China is not the best comparison to the UK though.
The state have far more powers to build what they like, where they like because there is no private land ownership in China.
How can passengers be moved to the High Scandal 2 line when it goes so fast it cannot stop at the existing intercity station they might want to get off at?! You will still need the intercity trains, won't you? So what is the point of High Scandal 2?
@@timweller9830 You have buses too don’t you? And more than a few cities have metro systems too.
The bit about Aberystwyth benefiting from HS2 freeing up capacity was a real eye opener. I'd only considered the lines where it'll directly free up capacity - I never thought about the lines that feed into them, which actually includes an awful lot of the country if you think about it! Put it this way, relieving Birmingham alone will affect pretty much the entire Cross Country network, which stretches all the way from Aberdeen to Penzance! Similarly, the extra capacity on the WCML south of Crewe benefits Chester and North Wales, while the relief of the MML and ECML benefits South Yorkshire, Derbyshire and the East Midlands, as well as some parts of East Anglia
Won't speed up services on those branch-lines, or make them more attractive as would reinstating missing, but highly useful links, closed due to Beeching. Also, hardly 'green' to encourage more people to make long distance journeys. The South West will not be affected and neither will it benefit Aberdonians travelling to Edinburgh or Newcastle etc. Also, 225mph is great, but linear motor Maglev trains offer superior ride quality and 300mph plus performance. Incidentally, we pioneered the linear motor and produced a viable prototype as far back as 1976 (c.f. Modern Railway, December 1976).
@@davidjenner5665 But Maglev trains aren't compatible with existing infrastructure!
And reinstating old lines would feed even more traffic onto the already congested existing network, so it's much better to build HS2 first so it can free up capacity for that traffic!
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz The only capacity that HS2 frees up is that between London and Birmingham already served by two fast routes from Marylebone taking around 1.30 Minutes Unless you are going direct and swapping to HS2 there is additional capacity. The HS2 blurb about an additional 22000 per hour is hogwash, as its non stop between the two, Anyone wanting to go ANYWHERE in betyween have not got the extra capacity, except for the minority travelling all the way to Brum who can afford the extra fares needed.
@@richardwilliams6132 Except they have, because there will be room for more trains serving those places!
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz Except they havent! The only extra capacity is between London and Birmingham Non stop. It won't take any trains off the WCML that currently stop at intermediate stations or those going elsewhere, If I currently commute to Milton Keynes, Rugby or Aylesbury for example there's hardly any difference. Because even though they are "on the way one still has to go to Marylebone or elsewhere to get there, and the numbers don't fall doing so, nor are there any extra seats except for those who choose to go direct to Brum on HS2, currently less than 1 % of rail passengers in and out of London..
Great video. I liked the interview at the end - very informative.
Very informative video! The United States is in a similar situation as they also avoided building a dedicated high speed line until now, and used High Speed trainsets on existing, outdated infrastructure. The US government is trying to construct the California High Speed Rail system, which is about the same size if not larger than HS2, but is constantly delayed due to funding problems, protests from anti-HSR groups and political deadlock.
I think the USA also has a cultural hurdle to overcome in the next decade of getting people out of cars and onto trains, outside of the large cities its not that common compared with Asia and Europe.
@@danielcoward3469 Absolutely. That is another major factor regarding rail transportation in the US. I also have a railroad news series, the Pensyfan Periodical, which goes over railway news articles from around the world including HS2 and other events in the US, UK and more.
Plus California High Speed Rail happened to Engage WSP and particular Roy Hill who has been dismissed from the project due to serious conflicts of interest and procurement irregularities along with installing a culture of fear in regards to reporting the truth. And who was in charge of HS2 for a period and who did the current CEO of HS2 used to work for and what organisation has benefited hugely from HS2 for a number of years. If the DFT had any gumption at all they would look closely at some of the procurement and ongoing Variations to contracts that HS2 is managing and question some of the reasons behind HS2 and a number of the very Senior Staff .
California HSR has been sued endlessly. Californian environmental law allows private property owners to take the project to court under the guise of environmentalism, but it’s been used by NIMBYs to slow property acquisition. The most expensive aspect of these projects is time: over a decade in the HSR authority STILL doesn’t own 100% of the land they need for the Phase 1, Central Valley portion linking Bakersfield, Fresno and Merced.
Getting that train through the more populated areas in later phases is a fool’s errand given the tsunami of lawsuits that would come in. Sad. People don’t understand if we were building the interstate highway system there right now it’d be the same over budget mess.
very informative. the sort of content I'd expect from someone with 50 times the subscribers.
Great video, but we still need a leeds - Sheffield- Manchester route 🤷♂️🤷♂️
For HS2 railways the longest tunnel project the Ireland side the mostly build from Belfast - Dundalk - Dublin (the Irish Railways and NI Railways coorporations megaproject for HS2 cross-border high-speed trains in Ireland)
Anyone involved in the management of Crossrail should be excluded from having any involvement with this project, from the top down.
And yet a senior director has left HS2 and moved to Crossrail to help them open. It’s the same Middle Aged Men hoping from one failing to the other.
Does this include constant worker's?
fm 1055 Not sure what a “constant worker” is? Mainly refers to anyone with management responsibility of Crossrail huge overspend and delay. Comment would not relate to the chaps physically doing the work. Please explain. J
Boxing Fan Musical Chairs, sums up British economy. To have a thriving car industry required Japanese Management and structures, British workforce on the line, says a lot. J
@@jeanjacques9980 damn auto correct I meant construction.
Good explanation. Getting me to use it over the existing line will be another matter.
The InterCity services (eg Manchester - London) will be moved over to HS2, so you won't exactly have much choice. Prices will be within the existing fare structure (not a two-tier system)
@@DavidFrankal
MK to Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow will still be on the WCML. Train companies have said they will still want to run trains on the WCML with a few stops. So, Liverpool or Manchester to London will still be on the WCML with some stops between, which HS2 cannot do. The intermediate stops are the attraction.
Meanwhile, America can't agree to build two tunnels under the Hudson...
Without those tunnels NYC will partially grind to a halt.
Thats a negatory. NY and NJ cant agree on it. I, as a taxpayer of the proud state of Oklahoma, can't figure why am I suppose to pay for a tunnel so a buncha liberals can go to their fancy glassy offices at fuck-know-how-many-storied building to make wage higher, than an honest working christian American, by doing absolutely nothing of value.
@@johnburns4017 Good. There will finally be a good reason to evac NYC to Wyoming and bulldoze this cesspit into the waters of Atlantic.
@@a4yster
I assume you vote for Trump.
@@johnburns4017 Trolling aside - I'm actually not sure why an average american suppose to pay for a tunnel in ONE city out of their tax money. NY and NJ should pay for this.
Great video David. You have great content and great passion. Keep working on your videography and audio and you’ll be set up well!
Birmingham Curzon Street - dialect or derelict?
He definitely said dialect, lol!
PZB and LZB can both be used on the same tracks in Germany
PZB under 160 kmh
LZB every speed
Wanna bet if HS2 will also use French TVM like HS1? Or maybs ETCS?
So much progress can be made with infrastrucutre, power and the environment if people stop getting so badly misinformed by the media.
Infractrucure costs time and money, but it contributes so much more.
For most English speakers, the name for the letter is pronounced as /eɪtʃ/ and spelled "aitch" or occasionally "eitch". The pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and the associated spelling "haitch" is often considered to be h-adding and is considered nonstandard in England.
Agreed -- this creeping use of "haitch" instead of the correct "aitch" is very annoying.
Dialect... Derelict. Very interesting and informative video.
Thanks for this video. I can't wait for HS2 to be built
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Why is green, low carbon high speed rail that will cut domestic air travel, take cars off the roads and create thousands of jobs a waste of money? Also, it will most likely get past Birmingham as Phase 2a to Crewe will probably get Royal Assent by the end of the year.
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 did you even watch the video? Eurostar trains can't run on the HS2 network without changing the rail gauges.
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 HS2 isn't 'for the rich'. It will cost around the same as it does now to travel by train. It will be for anyone to use. What I am trying to say is HS2 will be low carbon as soon as it opens and will be capable of net zero operation. It is not HS2's reponsibility as to where it sources its electricity. That will be the Department of Energy. This thread should help you out: twitter.com/HS2ltd/status/1289223951026028546?s=19
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Compared to cars, and domestic air travel it is very green which is why we should be investing in high speed rail more to get people out of their cars and off domestic flights onto low carbon high speed rail. Also, hopefully by the time HS2 opens, we will have a lot more renewable energy sources in the UK
@@desperatemohammedantheworl5833 Rail travel in the UK emits around 8g of CO2 per passenger per kilometre. A car with 4 passengers emits around 40g of CO2 per passenger per kilometre.
The way to electrify routes with less disruption is to build two pairs of electrified tracks rather than over arching the catenary across all four tracks, so where four tracks exist, electrify them in pairs, so while working on up down slow, up down fast can be used and vice versa, where four tracks are required but only two exist, you build the new route alongside with wires over a pair of tracks and then once finished, use that track while electrifying the remaining track, so many parts of our network require four tracks where there is bottle neck - north of Leeds - through Oxford Road - South of Newcastle for example - by laying two tracks alongside that you electrify as a pair you can then utilise that pair once finished while electrifying the second pair
Great presentation. Consider getting a microphone though.
Wow! What a cool video where we learn a lot of things!
Just one thing that I heared, actually, the first Pendolino was already created by Fiat when the APT was planned.
Just because I heared it;
Thanks you for this!
I thought it was a bombardier and hitachi joining to bid for the rolling stock with Alston having a separate bid
Oh sugar, that's right! Alstom and Bombardier may merge now, however, I think that's what threw me off
David Frankal it is confusing now they merged. Good video btw
This has been so beneficial I am now much better informed and I will point my friends who are hs2 sceptical to it. Thanks
Thanks for the interesting overview.
Yet you didn't get the prestory right. Separate highspeed lines don't have anything to do with in cap signaling. France and especially Germany have upgraded existing lines to run 200, 220 or even 230 km/h which is well over the limit of traditional signaling of 160 km/h. Still they haven't upgraded all regional or freight stock, the lines just provide both in cap and traditional signaling.
By the way, that's also true for almost all dedicated high speed lines in Germany. Traditional signaling is used as a backup system or to run slower trains. Only just recently Germanys state railway ditched this redundancy for the latest high speed line. That one is fitted with the European ETCS instead which can also provide in cap signaling.
The real reasons for separate high speed lines are safety issues. In Germany it is not allowed to pass a platform with speeds of over 200 km/h unless you install some platform edge barriers. In that case you can go up to 230 km/h, but there's only one single line making use of this exception. More than 230 km/h always requires separate tracks for the platforms.
The other problem has to do with the shockwave a highspeed train pushes in front of it, especially in tunnels. They can damage freight trains and passengers trains have to be air tight to avoid harming the passengers.
I definitely could have worded that better. The in-cab signalling problem was an example of a problem the UK had - my broader point was that France and Germany got around 'problems like this' by building high speed rail.
Anyway, you've thought me some things I didn't know about high speed rail in Germany, so thank you!
@@DavidFrankal
He wrote:
_"Separate highspeed lines don't have anything to do with in cap signaling. France and especially Germany have upgraded existing lines to run 200, 220 or even 230 km/h "_
Recall that nearly 40 years ago the APT was designed to run at 155mph on _existing_ track. Remove bottlenecks on the ECML and WCML, have two dedicated fast tracks with few points, uprated signalling and faster trains, then we have it. Trains get faster and faster. Train technology has overtaken the 50 year old French technology of HS2.
@@DavidFrankal You're welcome.
@@johnburns4017 What do you mean by 50 year old French technology? What would be proper modern technology?
@@NeoDerGrose
If we want fast travel then 50 year old French technology is not the way to go. The British actually invented Maglev.
I've just eaten a Railway Lamb takeaway from our Indian restaurant. It arrive ahead of schedule and on budget and was very tasty.
The brits sure do love having major cities on dead-end branch lines. Makes no sense at all to me, but if saving a few quid means more than building a rail network that makes sense I guess I can kinda see why.
HS2 is so bad it is not worth doing.
@@johnburns4017 While I think some aspects are somewhat crazy, the basic idea is solid. The tracks are full as is. New tracks are needed. Segregate out a service type that has a clearly different speed than the others is the best option for that. Thus: HSR. that part is great. Terminal stations, I just don't get.
The planned HSR here in Sweden goes into Norrköping which could have had a terminal station but instead has a station that's basically on a sort of loop. both the existing line, and the planned new station does that. It does look awesome IMO play.norrkoping.se/animering-upphojt-resecentrum
@@GustavSvard
The existing lines are *not* full. *HS2 is a highly flawed design, as high speed railway.*
♦ HS2 is *slow.* London to Birmingham is 100 miles exactly. It take 52 minutes for the trip, the times cannot be improved. That is an average of 116mph on a 250mph railway. This is the prime section of the railway. No kidding.
♦ From the outset HS2 will be full to capacity to the point the city of Chester and the Liverpool to Birmingham trains have been bumped off onto snail rail. So, HS2 cannot cope with intercity traffic, its prime reason to exist.
♦ One of the prime points was that British provincial cities would be connected _"directly"_ to the Continent. They will not be, making the project redundant.
♦ HS2 does not connect with the connecting services at New St in Birmingham having a separate dead-end stand alone station where people have to drag their bags along a street in the rain between stations.
♦ It does not run into Birmingham airport with passengers having to take a ride to the terminal.
♦ It will have a separate station at Manchester airport to the existing station being one mile north west of the terminal needing a bus ride in.
♦ It enters Manchester via a 7.5 mile very expensive gold plated tunnel into Piccadilly which faces the wrong way, after negotiating an S bend around Tatton which slow the train down substantially. Victoria station is ignored which faces the right way. No kidding.
♦ HS2 is only two-track from London to Crewe, when this section serving the big cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh should be 4-track to accommodate all services between these cities and London and also the cities of Chester and Stoke.
♦ Liverpool, a city region of around 2.2 million has 'no' direct HS2 line into the city. The city needs a new HS2 line to alleviate the existing lines for the new container terminal expansion and the forced movement to rail from road for environmental reasons. Liverpool is the only deep water port on that coast taking the largest ships in the world, serving all the North of England and further afield. It is everyone's port in the North and Midlands needing highly efficient rail links to improve business giving quicker and cheaper freight. Liverpool is also to expand as major cruise liner terminal is being built, needing top quality passenger rail for north of England cruisers direct top the waterfront.
♦ Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds have expensive dead-end branches off the main spine into these cities, which will have dead-end stations.
♦ Derby & Nottingham are served by Toton between the two. Centre to centre from London is quicker by existing rail, so Toton is an expensive waste.
♦ Birmingham to Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield can match HS2 times by electrifying and uprating the existing lines.
This High Speed UK was a far better idea. All it needs is one Line from London to Edinburgh up the flat lands of the east of the country, branching into the Liverpool-Hull NPR line. NPR needs to be 4-track and 250mph capable, to reach Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool *fast,* with a fast _base_ tunnel under the Peninnes.
www.highspeeduk.co.uk
@@johnburns4017 The West Coast Main Line being clogged up with express trains means that regional trains are restricted to 2/3 per hour despite passenger numbers on the stopper routes between Coventry and Birmingham N St doubling in ten years. On the other side of Birmingham, the service pattern is 6 per hour, because it's not on the WCML. Services are also often delayed to allow the express trains with priority to use the line. How do you propose to fix that? Funny how you see the benefits of a HS2 for Liverpool but not for Birmingham!
I'm not sure what the issue is with dead-end branches. The purpose of HS2 is to connect up major cities, of course it terminates at cities. Would you prefer if it was one line from London to Leeds with no spures and no linkage to exisiting network? You cannot add HS2 to Birmingham New Street unless you want to ramp up the cost significantly. The existing WCML doesn't run directly to Birmingham Airport either, you take a people mover or a 5 minute walk, which is absolutely fine. It takes just as long as traversing around large London Underground stations anyway.
I agree that HS2 should be connected to HS1, but there are ways for that to be done in the future.
Great explanation. Living on the WCML but in the local Birmingham area, it's frustrating that the local stopper is only 2 per hour (covid timetable is 1 per hour), all because there's too many London bound or Manchester bound express services on the route. I haven't checked yet but I'm assume that with the reduced service pattern on the WCML post hs2, more trains could stop for commuters. Although by the time this comes we might also have the midland metro here so who knows.
The West Midlands Rail Executive propose increases of the stopping services to 4 per hour at (while still having semi-fast services on top of that) after phase 2b and then 6 per hour after upgrades that can happen after the WCML through Birmingham takes a more regional character (and so can have weekend closures for works and so on). Phase 1+2a benefits seem to be about changing the local service on the Birmingham-International-Coventry side of things from overlapping hourly patterns to regular half-hourly patterns. It's all here www.westmidlandsrail.com/strategy/wmris/ There's other plans too from bodies that have a say, but they are pretty similar in what they propose.
Sick of all the crazy complaints every time something needs updating in this country, no matter if it’s a vital airport or motorway or comically outdated rail infrastructure. Obviously this is needed and has been for decades, just get it built already
Yep the elitist twerps who run us need to get to Birmingham 10 minutes quicker.
@Amtsf Is that really worth £70/100 billion How about spending that amount on extending the existing motorway network upgrade the A1 to the the North East and A38 to Plymouth and beyond there are many such schemes that can be undertaken which will benefit many more people than that damned white elephant and boondangle and btw i agree this country has been starved of infrastructure projects for at least thirty years the main reason is because we have been paying for everyone elses through the EU those airports and brand new motorways in Spain and Greece don't pay for themselves you know.
I know!
@@marcbiff2192 holy moly some shit just poured out of your mouth.
Firstly, this video literally explained why HS2 should be built.
Second, do you just ignore all the funding we got from the EU, and do you ignore that now going back to governing everything our self, it's actually going to cost us more than what we payed out to the EU?
I'd love to hear more about how we funded the Spanish motor way
@@bobsemple7660 No thankyou i like my car.
Great video.
Have you considered adding timestamps to the description (or a pinned post) for anyone who wants to come back and rewatch a specific bit?
That's a smart idea, no I hadn't thought of that!
0:56 Edinburgh and Glasgow captions wrong way round.
Yep, a very poor error on my part...
A couple of things:
-Why operate the trains at 360 kph? China and France saw that running trains above 320 kph significantly increased energy consumption so they don't do it.
-I understand that HS2 won't connect to HS1, I know very few people will ride daily between Birmingham and Paris for example but why wouldn't there be people doing that? Maybe Brexit poses a problem?
-Also I don't know how much the UK is in need of a freight rail upgrade but maybe consider to build certain sections of the HS line as a hybrid freight and passenger like some lines in Spain and France to bypass a city or a certain area for example.
-Lastly I hope that HS2 happens but the frequency and pricing of the trains would need to be quite steep so that it's not just for the elite business traveller as this project costs a lot of public money and regular people need to be able to use it as well. Pricing like most tickets on the ICE services in Germany would be more than fair.
Surprised people think HS2 is not good for anything and believe lies from a tv personality and a few companies
An addition regarding Germany: they developed their cab signalling system so that it could be overlaid over the existing lineside signalling system.
Yes but things like that cost money. Britain doesnt like paying money to make things better.
And Queen Elizabeth II will still be around to cut ribbon on opening
She will never die so maybe 😄
This is a great video David and explains a pile of things I haven't found elsewhere. Thanks for putting it all together :) While timings are easy to find for the full HS2 lines, I have never seen anything for the hybrid lines (for want of a better term). I was wondering if you had estimated timings for the lines that used shared resources, like this first map you have for phase 1 (6 trains an hour), phase 2 (the 10 trains per hour) and especially the final one which shows the 17 trains per hour (e.g. how long will the Liverpool Lime St to Euston take, with part of the route using existing existing lines or how long from Sheffield to Euston)?
5:12 - DERELICT 🤦🏻♂️
In Germany the ICEs have some dedicated high speed lines but the majority runs on the standard lines shared with slower trains. Those run between 100 and 120 mph, most of the time in my experience.
120 miles per hour is fast for British standards, we have most of our trains in the north going maximum 75 or 90 and in the south 90, 100 or 110 on rare occasions but on My Local Line, the South-western Main Line, my local train usually didn't break 60!
A clear and informative video. However HS2 has now become a vastly expensive white elephant that, in a post covid-19 age of working at home and meetings on Zoom, will now never achieve the required passenger volumes to be viable. With little business use and most leisure users having already been driven out by the ridiculous and rising cost of rail travel, it is hard to see a case for continuing the HS2 project.
Excellent video, great explanation, thank you
It won't be long until it'll probably be too far in and too costly to cancel it so whatever people say, it's just gonna happen.
Judging by the progress being made on the Chiltern Tunnel I'd say it's already too far in!
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz I think the costs are at £8bn so far.
Combination of compulsory purchase orders, design and a smidge of construction.
Whilst they would get a lump if that back from selling property the money lost to cancel now would be unforgivable.
@@richardschofield2201 Don't forget John Bishop (vocal critic of HS2) made £6.8 million selling his property on the route - www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47845861
That's the sunk cost fallacy.
You have opened a little wasp nest David, 698 comments surely a record. Well done!
2:35: What's about that tiny track right of the intercity train?? A nursery for baby trains? ^_^
the picture of the APT is at the crew heritage centre... they have a miniature railway running alongside it.
And you can add later always lines far more nord...! It is a very first part hopefully....This creates vibes for lines to the North as well...It is a first step in green energy. And you need a total train revival, also for transport !!!
'Dialect'? You mean 'derelict'! LOL
Yes, I meant derelict.
@@DavidFrankal You were referring to Birmingham so were probably in need of a kipper tie...☕
On many ICE lines in Germany you can also find freight Trains. Between München and Nürnberg even a regional Train is in service (the fastest RE in Germany, 200 km/h Vmax)
HS2 is justified, by HS2 Ltd and those on the gravy train on, 'capacity'. *The UK does not have a capacity problem.* They say capacity _may_ be a problem south of Rugby on the WCML. The WCML can have two extra track to Old Oak Common by reopening the 40 mile Rugby to Aylesbury section of the Gt.Central. This gives two extra _fast_ tracks to London.
The ECML has half the traffic as the WCML. Any capacity problems can be solved using the existing network.
Speed? that can be improved by having faster trains, not the 125mph slow junk we now have. The APT was designed to run at 155mph 35 years ago, _on existing tracks._ The Alstom Liberty runs at 180mph on existing tracks. Amtrack have ordered some. Remove the bottlenecks on the ECML and the WCML, with two dedicated fast tracks, running fast trains, then HS2 is not needed at all.
Also Pendolino trains consist I believe of 9 cars while they could be approx. 30 cars long like a Eurostar to solve capacity problems. Of course platforms would need to be longer with perhaps travelators to get more easily along the train to the required carriage.
@@Martindyna
Exactly. Get the ECML & WCML up to 140mph on average - can go faster on some sections. With two dedicated _fast_ tracks with few points to keep speeds up and of course remove the bottlenecks, then have longer trains. Then *speed* and *capacity* is guaranteed.
HS2 Ltd and their fanboys make out only HS2 trains can be long and fast. Which is complete nonsense of course.
@@johnburns4017 Oh we meet again with the rubbish you come out with, both the ECML and WCML were designed to take upto 13 coaches of Mk3 design only due to the length of platforms and sections between signals and can not be altered or the speed increased, you can not dedicate two fast tracks for these high speed trains as they are already used by LNER class 800 trains on the ECML and Pendilino's operated by Avanti West Coast on the WCML, so with out vast disruption for years and cancelled trains on these routes they can not be altered. The " Fanboys " of HS2 are correct in saying that the Railway and it's new station are being designed for 14 + coach trains ravelling at 230 mph which believe me is not nonsense but fact but you are talking nonsense with you strange ideas.
@@Martindyna God you have as silly imagination as John Burn.
If the 18th path isn't allocated then maybe it could eventually be given to North Wales services if that line is ever electrified. Indeed, having it consist of two 200m trains could allow it to divide to serve two destinations, while attaching a portion to the other Liverpool train would give a total of three services an hour, so one each for Wrexham, Llandudno and Holyhead
A destruction of the countryside to allow a few businessmen to knock 5 mins off their journey, where to get to an actual station to catch this vanity project, will cause more pollution and road jams, whilst those on the route have their lives destroyed for years. We do not heed this Jose of a resin line
@@agent_605 there's nothing that can justify the amount of damage to the environment that is being done. Absolute disgrace. The government committed to being carbon neutral by 2050 and this delays that further (proven by HS2's own figures). The whole thing is ridiculous, should never be allowed to happen.
Jack Simmons The environmental damage is no worse than the Lower Thames Crossing motorway, which is only 15 miles long. Also, with the modal shift HSR encourages, there’s likely to be a huge reduction in carbon emissions thanks to HS2
The maglev train was initially developed in the UK and the first scale working prototype was in birmingham.
19th century solution to 21st century problems.
What’s a 21st century solution then? Because this is what everyone else is doing
@@agent_605 Well imagine if we had a network of computers in every house connected with high speed connections. And work back.
clangerbasher You can’t deliver goods over the Internet, you can’t travel for leisure over the Internet, nor can you commute on the Internet
@@agent_605 Most of the City is commuting over the internet right now. Travel for leisure? Is HS2 going to the south west of England or the coast of Wales? As for deliver goods HS2 might free capacity. We have roads to deliver things. Capacity problem for roads is mainly due to city dwellers using them as local roads. See for example say Cardiff.
clangerbasher Working from home is however less productive for the majority of jobs, and an investigation carried out in China found only 25% of office workers preferred working from home on a long term basis. Leisure travellers go all over the country, with London being the most popular destination. Roads are terrible for the environment, especially HGVs, even if someone made them electric they have the issue of tyre particulates.
Great video and well researched and presented. Did seem to have far to many stops for adverts to allow a clear flow though.
HS2 is *SLOW.* It is exactly 100 miles from Euston to Curzon St in Birmingham. It takes 52 minutes to cover this 100 miles. My calculator says I cover that 100 miles at *116mph,* on a 250mph railway. It cannot go any faster. The London to Birmingham section is the prime section of HS2.
As soon as HS2 was slow from London to Birmingham, the Heathrow station was dropped and not connection to the Continent, the raison d'etre ceased to exist for HS2. Then it should have been dropped immediately.
John you keep saying HS2 will average 116 MPH, get your facts right, the present Pendolino's do 125 MPH, the new train's that are being operated under Avanti West Coast / TransItalia of italy will be doing an average of at least 250 MPH.
@@peterwilliamallen1063
London-B'ham takes 52 mins to cover 100 miles. Work it out.
@@johnburns4017 What is there to work out John, it may take 52 mins on a good day without any backlogs or hold ups due to freight or local trains, the speed between Birmingham and Rugby is an average of 90 MPH due to a two track line between Birmingham and Rugby, our trains will then only do 125 MPH from Rugby to London Euston. Your calculations must be wrong as the New HS2 line is designed with only two stops between Birmingham and Curzon Street, they are Birmingham International and Old Oak Common and not all trains will stop at these stations and from the outset will be travelling from end to end at around 250 MPH so basically 250 MPH of HS2 against 90 /125 MPH of the WCML, I do believe HS2 comes up the winner in time taken in all accounts, I think you need to check your calculations as HS2 is going to be a hell of a lot faster than the WCML.
@@peterwilliamallen1063
Boy!
*HS2* takes *52 mins,* to cover *100 miles.* Get it?
@@johnburns4017 My you sound a nasty piece of stuff, how dare you insult me son, I am into railways as a hobby and live in Birmingham right next to HS2 I couldn't care less what your average speed crap is about, if as you Calculations were correct and HS2 averaged 116 MPH that makes a WCML pendelino average 60 MPH, What utter rubbish. Believe it or not read all the info on HS2 including their official Videos from HS2 limited the SPEED these trains will do is around 250 MPH, nothing to do with averages, it is fact as stated by HS2 limited and it will be quicker between Birmingham and London, and John , DO NOT BE SO BLOODY INSULTING MATE it makes you look silly in these comments. I suggest you look at the video again or are you a NIMBY and can not take or understand progress, AND DO NOT CALL BE BOY mate .
Great explainer! Thanks :-)
Minimised environmental impact? You are having an absolute laugh.
Our countryside is being desecrated at this very moment.
This is an excellent HS2 propaganda video, but extremely poor in portraying the reality of the HS-teamroller white elephant.
I guess we could just build another bunch of 8 lane motorways instead which require far more space and have a much larger impact given the vast, vast majority of vehicles using them will be belching out CO2 from their internal combustion engines. Or we can use high speed, high capacity trains that run entirely on electric and this will be more and more offset by the fact we're becoming less reliant on fossil fuel sources. The point of this is to take traffic OFF the roads, locally and nationally, by making it quicker and easier to go between population centres and for local train services to improve their services by not having to share their track with these kind of trains as they do right now. The current network is at or near capacity, it won't last much longer. It's already affected along the entire west coast if there's a single issue anywhere along it so this is very much needed.
@@TalesOfWar or we could improve the existing rail network, using the money wasted on HS2 and avoid destroying huge tracts of countryside. HS2 is a vanity project designed to bale out failed Tory donor construction companies. Any environmental improvements as a result of HS2 are so far down the line there probably won't be a planet left to improve
@@kimcallaghan753 HS2 IS improving the EXISTING network! This argument is absolutely asinine, people use it all the time. How do you propose to "improve" the existing network without actually expanding it? It's already at capacity, the intercity links need their own dedicated tracks so the local lines can be used... for LOCAL traffic. It'll effectively double or even triple the local service capacity in all the areas it'll remove express intercity services from sharing the track.
@@TalesOfWar Asinine? The existing network is designed for the carriage of cattle. By "improve" I mean make it fit for human travel. Better, longer carriages - oh yes, running vaguely on time. Mate, you need reassimilating outside of the Borg. Think outside of the rectangle.
@@kimcallaghan753 And yet again the whole thing went right over your head. Longer carriages need better and more track otherwise it bogs the network down even more as there's now less space for existing trains to use on the already crowded lines. So... separating the long distance intercity lines more from the local lines lets you do exactly this, while letting you put more services on the slower, local lines. It's not rocket science. Everything you want it to be is exactly what it's going to goddamn be.
Very interesting video
The other twat that made an HS2 Explainer didn't even include a single map, this is a vastly superior video! Great work!
I feel like the best classic compatible fleet should be the Hitachi class 385 "fishbowl".
They are used on the "Scotrail Express" sub brand from Glasgow Queen Street- Edinburgh Waverley, stopping 4 times, taking 50 minutes.
The Hitachi A-Series which includes the 385, 395 and 80X are split into 4 segments
AT100 = ~60mph _Metro_ (Currently unused in the UK)
AT200 = ~100mph _Commuter_ (Class 385)
AT300 = ~140mph _Intercity_ (Class 80X and Class 395)
AT400 = ~200mph+ _High-Speed/Bullet_ (Possible HS2)
The 385 is not structurally capable or able to handle the pressures of high speed, but Hitachi have more or less confirmed that their HS2 fleet (If they win) will end up being an AT400 meaning even more Shinkansen technology than the 80Xs
Great video thank you for explaining this in English that us normies can understand.
The macclesfield service should get the nickname ''Staffordshire flyer'' for giving Stafford and Stoke a direct HS2 link to London
I like that!
1960s Japan built the 515km Tokaido Shinkansen in 5 years.
2020s Britain will build half that distance with Phase 1 and 2a of HS2 in 10-13 years.
All of HS2 combined will be only slightly longer than the Tokaido Shinkansen and won't be finished for at least another 15+ years providing that Phase 2 isn't delayed or cancelled.
in my transport fever 2 game I like to enjoy an laternative reality starting in 1965 where britain actually bothered to seperate it's HS and classic lines
Japan’s decision to build dedicated high-speed lines had everything to do with the narrow (3’6”) gauge of the national rail network and the frequently winding routes through mountainous terrain. In hindsight, it was fortuitous in terms of sheer speed and capacity, although it has led to issues where some high-speed stations don’t interface well with conventional lines (being placed on their own away from other lines, in order to avoid speed-limiting curves), hobbling overall connectivity.
Just getting a straight line in Japan was a major feat. A straight line can obviously have faster trains. The first Bullet train in 1963 was not particular fast. The line being straight and direct was the key.
John Burns and the uber ambitious Chuo Shinkansen Maglev will be even straighter and more direct, with 90% of its alignment being in tunnels. Holy shit. Tokyo to Nagoya in 40 minutes on the non-stop express service.