I live in Manitoba, 62 yrs old and still love riding. My take on the industry is the only people who are out there are us grey hairs. Rarely see the younger riders out. To expensive, no interest, etc. so glad I grew up when I did.
Come do some mountain riding out in BC. 98% of the riders out here are under 40, lots of young bucks like myself are keeping the sport going. However, the manufacturers are due for a reality check. $30k for a sled is outrageous.
Unfortunately, the price of the sleds followed the age of the users. When the average young person is still lucky to make more then $20 an hour and the price of everything else going up it makes it much less of a priority to get one. Car loans have doubled for everyone, I cant see myself paying on a loan for sled, or even an ATV for that matter.
If the prices were more reasonable like 20 years ago maybe more people would be into the sport. Add up 20K sleds for trail (i know you can grab sport models, but they're still like 15k out the door and most want the higher models) plus hundreds per year for trail sleds and gas prices. I am only 38 with a very strong passion for the sport, and if it were not for that passion then yes I'd probably pull out due to cost.
they cant afford the sport anymore. im 60 and run 20 year machines just for fishing and going out with kids etc. no need for a new 25k machine for me. and cant afford them anyways
As long as they keep selling all of there sleds they will keep jacking up the price. Just like trucks.....I'm convinced that the executives of these companies have the mindset of "If they keep buying, keep increasing the price".
I still own my 2011 Sierra 1500 I bought in 2016 for $25k Canadian, meanwhile my 2023 backcountry was $24k.... ugh. I mean i don't regret my purchase, but i hate how much I had to pay to own it. No where near the deal my 2014 MXZ 600 Sport was for about $11k out the door. I really wish they would boost up the lethargic 600 efi, because i really wanted to grab the backcountry sport 600 but 85hp is just pathetic for an off trail oriented sled with 146x2". They need to add rave valves and tune it up to at least 110hp like the old carb... Then it would be more worth the increased price at $11 (without fees/tax).
I think all the manufacturers are pricing people out of the sport. I mean every year they go up thousands. I don’t know how anyone can buy one every year
Couldn’t agree more it’s gotten out of hand! I have no idea how they can correct it but definitely keeping to overproduce and reck the re sale value is not helping any of us.
Retired out of the game now, but as a 45+ year veteran snowcat rider with deep experience from ditch banging, ice racing, mountain riding, trail rider, et al that last bought a Polaris Pro RMK 800HO around 2019, that sled was way more capable than I was and got me into places I shouldn't be at that stage in my life for under $11k OTD. Most amazing thing I'd ever ridden, all the years of dumping huge $$$$ into mod sleds, out the box it was the best you could ask for. What else could you really need than that? Had huge fun seasons on M7 Cats, Escape RMKs, Rev Summits, Mountain Max triples, but the lightness of the Pro chassis Polaris with a hot twin 800 or Summit Gen4, honestly what else does 85-90% of the market actually need? Economics of owning toys is gone and the lifeblood of the sport, working class men 18-40 is gone. No one can afford multiple toys at $15k-25k+ each, vehicle and trailer to pull them at $60K+, fuel at $5/gal to run them, consumable parts that don't last for $2k/season, etc etc etc. Sad but it'll all go away- all because of corporate greed via investor paybacks for the OEMs, ridiculous federal regulations, and ultimately lack of interest and feasibility of ownership by the next generations. The world can't finance it way to sustainability for everything.....
Oh yeah, and a thing called a changing climate. 72 year old trail rider here. I have a 2004 Firecat F7 EFI NightFire. Last time on the snow was back in 2008. Sitting in near climate control storage with 800 miles on the OD. It has become such an expensive destination sport, I just could not keep up after buying my first home.
totally agree skating and skiing is gone also! Use to love the pond hockey days and skiing at local hills! Its all gone dosent' even get cold enough to skate and the ski areas are all closed!!!!!!!
I’m 30. When I was a kid in Michigan, every kid my age had a carbed 440 or something that would ride around on. Now I don’t even know kids in my area that would have a sled, and the winters have been so inconsistent I don’t know where or when they would ride them. It’s terribly sad, the end of an era. Now everyone just rides side by sides.
Definitely crazy we have to find a way to keep the younger generations in the sport for sure! Having access to places to ride and affordable sleds to ride. Side by sides have definitely started to take over
I’m a big fan of Arctic cat from MI and my heart really goes out to them. All of snowmobiling is hurting right now. Arctic cat needs a fresh start. Only make trail sleds, focus on building a cheaper more affordable sled and getting families back into riding again. They need to re-kindle the passion for snowmobiling again and the Arctic cat name that sparked such a huge cult following.
I got back into snowmobiling in '93 when I moved to New England. I bought an '88 Polaris 400 for $2800. I hung out with guys who all rode new Polaris 500s. I think they were around $5500. We all had a great time sledding in CT, NY, NH, VT and even up into Quebec. For almost no money...Quite a contrast to 2024 costs...
We used to only race on the open lakes and at drags! Now the riders drive wide open on the trails! I had to beat some sense into a punk last winter that almost killed my friend. 😮😢
Snowmobiling has definitely become a hobby for the higher income people. When I was a kid in the 80's everyone had a snowmobile, now there's hardly any kids with sleds. Low snow and high prices are the biggest cause of this. Another problem is people seem to think if they don't have the top of the line sled they aren't going to have any performance. The fact is a bottom level 600 still has tremendous performance vs just a few years ago. Not everyone can afford a bmw m5 just like not everyone is entitled to be able to afford a boost, 9r or doo 850 turbos.
Yep. I have 1 2008 and 3 2009 Ski-Doo Summits. All were bought used at different times with ~1500 miles on them. All had small repairs needed when I got them, but I'm still into them and a used 4-position trailer for less than $9K. Yes they need some work occasionally, but all snowmobiles do. My family enjoys them immensely. My boys will each get one of these when they move out of the house, and when the last one goes I'll buy a new one for myself.
Almost everyone had a snowmobile around here also. I live between the two Minnesota snowmobile producers and now a fraction have newer snowmobile models. The rest ride 20+ year old machines or don't ride anymore. The ridiculous prices of everything is killing the powersports market. I remember in the 1990s that the most popular models were in the 500 - 600 cc range. The top models weren't as popular.
@@jasons2054 Because everyone wasn't in a social media pissing match in the 1990s. If we're honest, most of us don't have the skill to put a top of the line machine to the test. Most putt around on the trail, and occasionally get off onto a meadow that is easy to see from the trail. I see it on every ride. I have gone with people that won't take their turbo 850 mountain sleds off trail, and are freaked out that I'm sidehilling on my 15 year old sleds.
It's not just snowmobiling and recreational... it's nearly every industry. Agriculture equipment is out of whack with poor prices and ungodly expensive equipment... which in turn affects the rest of the population, which comes full circle back to snowmobiles and recreational. When people's pocket books can't pencil out expenses, a lot of things take a back seat.
BRP reignited the PWC industry with the Saprk. Those things are everywhere, to me looks like it worked like a charm and had a positive effect on the entire industry. Obviously the snowmobile market and pwc market are different but still similar enough that I think the method of cutting bells and whistles making it simple fun and affordable could work. I hate to watch this happen. Snowmobiling is such a unique amazing sport!
Here in sw Michigan you don't have the snow lately. Locally here in the past snow was abundant. The 6 yr stretch got less miles than 1 season used too so who needs a new sled..
I don’t even ride anymore but I hope to god Arctic Cat does not go under they used to be the coolest company building the most bad ass machines in the game we need companies like that in this world
Great podcast, I'm glad that UA-cam recommended this, you covered so many good points. I've been on snowmobiles since riding on my Dads 1972 Olympic in the mid 70's. We had real snow cover and people were into building and maintaining trails riding from town to town. I have so many great memories of those years.. My first new machine was in 1997 and I doubt I'll ever buy a new one. Snow cover is minimal and the local landowners have moved on, and trail access is limited locally. What used to be a regular winter family sport for so many people has been narrowed down to people willing to take on the expense of destination riding with $120K truck/ trailer combos, $15K+ sleds and thousands in cabin rentals and gear...
Ski-doo makes a snowmobile for absolutely every niche of the market! And this makes it very difficult to for Arctic Cat and even Polaris to maintain a profitable market share. I bought an Expedition Extreme 850 a couple of years ago and when I crossed shopped other the other brands I was truly stunned about how much more selection Skidoo has in their line up.
Your comment about bare stock truck. I bought a couple in the 90s. I modified it way cheaper than the dealer options. Radio, tires rims etc. Not a bad philosophy
The second year of a chassis isn’t necessarily a complete drop off because some wait a year to make sure all first year issues are taken care of. Year 3 is your dip year
To expensive and it's to warm in a lot of areas I can tell you that here in NJ when I was a kid in early 70s there were snowmobiles everywhere we hardly get any snow at all and it's the same a lot of other states as well
Myself, I just never got it with snowmobiles, they are seasonal, have gotten ridiculously heavy, easy to get stuck, hard to get out. I've noticed in Canada where my wife and I go fishing, it has switched to side by sides in the snow, ice fishing in the last years.
I live by Gaylord Michigan and have a cabin in the upper peninsula Michigan, I see very few artic cat's anymore, very small player now, mostly ski Doo then Polaris, we've had low snow year's 3 years in a row and looking like 4 year's now, plus the post covid prices are rediculous, we have more utv permits sold in Michigan now than snow permits, it's a dieing sport, greedy manufacturers killed the golden goose
If people want the additional features, be they on a pickup or a sled, then offer them as separate OEM add-ons. Manufacturers did this regularly until the 2010s.
The whole industry is making crazy expensive atv, snowmobiles, utv with marginal quality which spend more time at the dealer than the trails. The whole industry priced themselves, can’t blame anyone but themselves
I live in south GA. I've never even seen a snow machine in person before. So I have no clue why I listened to this entire podcast. And was interested the whole time.. Hahaha. I did use to b a huge arctic cat atv fan back in the day. They were on the cutting edge about 20 years ago. But the atv development just STOPPED about 2007..
The other 50% that live in those areas they can ride 6 months a year can’t afford a 20k sled. I make 120k a year and still can’t find it in myself to buy a sled that costs that.
So don’t buy a 20k sled? You can buy a last years model 650 for 11-12k. 10 years ago the MSRP of a Rush 600 was 10k, which in inflation adjusted dollars is $14,500 in 2024. The Matryx is a WAY better sled too.
What current model snowmobile compares to the 90's snowmobiles like an XLT and then compare the costs. Its not as bad as you think, the problem is we all want the top of the line machines.
I remember riding way back in the late 80s and early 90s you could buy a belt for 30$ now the same belt is 150$ plus you could buy runners wear bars for 20$ oil was 1$ quart helmets good one 75$ jackets were like 75$ tops now same jacket is 500$ all day. The sport has killed itself in a way. I refuse to buy new all that efi garbage no way electronics an snow/moisture is not good later. Having all those sensors feeding off each other in stupid carbs work fine less crap to deal with later having to take a sled to a dealer for all work is dumb. 1 sensor goes bad way out in the North 40 you are done
Fuel injected sleds always start, no matter how upside down you get in the mountains. Carbs are for the birds. But I'm in agreement on the $500 jackets and such. It's crazy expensive when you add in the truck and travel costs.
I spoke with the Track 2 Trail dealership owner in Sioux Falls, SD and he claimed powersports in general have just been selling extremely poor. The only new items people can afford is the ones with little to no extra options. I blame the government for printing all that money and handing out to everyone during covid. Created all this big boom in the economy and now its all a thing of the past.
I purchased my m600 catalyst for 9k off a lot. Have had no issues great trail sled can do deep snow. But ya nothing was selling last year. I will say honestly I love my m8000 way more than the catalyst. It is way more stable in deep snow. The short body on the 600 does some weird things in deep snow.
I bought my 22’ Hardcore for like 16k out the door in MN. Now the local dealer is selling brand new M8000s for 10k and they can’t get rid of them. Used sleds aren’t moving at giveaway prices either! I’m not buying new anymore. I’ll just buy a year old sled with 200 miles on it next year for 8k less from a private party and skip paying all the bullshit dealer fees and taxes.
Good plan, but ultimately if no one is buying new there won’t be any used. BTW new sleds in Japan are way more expensive than even the US. In the countryside where I live you can buy a decent house for less than a new Cat.
They’re marketing teams are doing amazing work, guys buy into the hype. Im probably an outlier but I still have my G4, it owes me nothing. I wrench on it myself almost every week but im in the sport with a few hundred dollars a year. If you can’t afford a brandnew sled every year just maintain your current sled. Yea a turbo or a big bore would be nice but the chassis haven’t changed much for the last 4-5years. My 2 cent
If arctic cat hired a media team like a bunch of 20-30 year olds, to make a podcast and youtube channel and stuff, they would blossom and that would gain them easily 50m a year.
All 3 of these guys know exactly what’s going on. I cant see a good outcome if these prices don’t come down. We have to remember how many bailouts BRP skidoo have been gone through. I don’t even own a skidoo and I’m paying taxes because we got an idiot for a prime minister that gave the bailout.
I think the economy is pricing people out, everything is getting expensive. Its hard to justify dropping $ on a toy when snow has been spotty over last couple years when people are hurting. The base model 858 has an MSRP of just under 16k USD. By most reports even the base model shocks are pretty decent on the Cat. So you can still get a decent entry level sled that has all the other goodies of the flagship sled minus the G8 and higher end shocks for reasonable. I understand why they did the 600 last year but don’t get why its there for this year. By all accounts its not saving you weight and not saving that much $ over a base model 858. I have only played with my G8 gauge in the garage so far but I think its way ahead of the polaris. Havent messed with the doo gauge.
I think a lot of people like the feeling of a 600 they claim it revs faster and is easier to ride for some people. That is what a lot of people claim at least. I don't have one. I agree things are soooooo expensive!
As a 65 years old Alberta Canadian ive been sledding since 1968 bought a new 1970 340 skiroule for 750 bux . Been riding cats since 1990 when Cat come out with the 1990 Prowler and had about ten new ones since Brother and i bought a new 2016 and 2017 Acrtic cat 800 mountain cats new none current sleds in 2019 and wrote a check for 16 k . 6 years later and 25 k wont buy you one new one . Ive seen the industry go from over 75 manufacturers too now two . Its all corporate greed .Too much money in two few of hands. Sad world . So in 45 years they went from 750 bux to 25 k .They priced themselves out of business. I dont agree with you that claim that Skudoo and Bullaris being superior. i've done lots of prarie riding and mountain riding and Cat kicked a lot of ass .
Just bought a new Ski Doo 4 stroke and now have to sell one of my Arctic Cat's. The 2002 ZL550 has given 2 decades of repair free pleasure and it's warm to drive. The 2018 ZR8000 constantly got warranty recall issues ( is at the dealer now; two weeks) and it's cold to drive. Can't wait to get it home to sell it. Never another Cat. Most of my sleds have been Polaris but gave up in 2006 when they started using biodegradable pistons. So it's up to Ski Doo to keep me sledding.
I owned a 2002 ZL 550 and had a couple of Cougar 550 L/Cs before that. They were only 80 HP engines, but absolutely bulletproof simple piston port engines with dual VM38 carbs. They would run and run with little maintenance.
Yes , really short season , simple reason less cold to freeze lakes, less snow to make trails, global warming mostly rain , goes for the ski hills too,
Its not just snowmobiles, its literally everything that's become too expensive. Were living in times of big monopolies and that is the end of story. The thing we should be talking about is how to break them up.
I'd love to get into the sport. I have cousins that are heavily into it. But $15-20K for a sled, then another 5k or more for a trailer... plus the lack of snow in the New England area for the past 4-5 years... forget it. Not worth it.
I bought a new 2024 Catalyst Riot 600 1.75 that my dealer had leftover. I used to buy a new sled every other year or so, but now it's like every 7 or 8 years. The other issue, at least where I live in the Black Hills, SD (baby mountains) they only stock a few crossover sleds, and those sell out right away while dozens and dozens of mountain sleds just sit. It's assumed that everyone has the time and money to travel out west all winter long, but very few do.
I live in the North Dakota red river valley literally the flattest land on planet earth yet when you go to a dealership 90 percent of the sleds are mountain sleds, you have to drive at least 15 hours 1 direction to see a mountain from here
My last new sled was bought in 2018, that’s the last new sled I’m ever buying, once the skidoo turbos were going over 20g I new I’m done with this, sold my 18 skidoo and keeping my Arctic cats.
I see this huge pricing increase as a means to charge what the manufacturers feel they can at this point to maximize profits. It’s a move that will slowly backfire as consumers on the whole cannot afford these prices.
Imo the single biggest issue is used sled values or even the ability to sell them at all. They sold so many machines over covid so there's a glut of used stuff on the market that u can't give away. So you're losing like 15k on your 2 year old sled that you've had out 6 times. I was considering getting the 858 but the dealer just kinda laughed when I asked him about trade value
The wakeboard boat industry is the same way, pricing many people out of the sport. Interest rates, taxes keep me from ever going new on sleds. So I buy a low mile used sled . New 20k+ is getting wild.
You guys are close but let me clue in on manufacturing. I work for a high end auto manufacture,we can produce an suv for 30k and turn around and sell that SUV for almost 200k. With inflation now at its highest point in decades and winter sport manufacturers that 20+k machine was built for 45 hundred dollars, now the manufacturers mark up the 45 hundred dollar machine to the dealer for 11 to 12k and they in turn mark it up to 20k +. This is unsastainable for the market today because of inflation and a shortend riding season.
Back to your truck question. If Dodge built a 93 Cummins 4x4 exactly the way they were originally built. Im guessing it would be a 40 thousand dollar truck. They wouldn't be able to keep em on the lot.
I bought a 99 Zl600 in 2000 for $3200. I thought that was plenty then for a toy that depends on getting snow. Wouldn't even think of spending 20k for one now. Manufacturers priced themselves out of business. Brilliant business plan there fellas.
I don’t have a snowmobile and I’ve never snowmobiles but I just saw the news about the factory shutting down. As an outsider here’s the biggest problem. I think a snowmobile can cost $13,999. For a recreational toy that you can only use a handful of times a years that’s insane.
I know a bunch of people who would get new sleds including me if they made the less expensive sleds. Last time I bought new, I paid 10k. Was all the sled I wanted and would buy same sled today for that price.
I use to buy a new sled every year or every two years at most. I started buying new in 95 until the 2010's. The prices just got crazy every year and today they are insane... I bought Cat too and think they make great sleds.. The entire industry is destroying itself. I have seen it at the dealer level in the early 2000's. They screwed over dealers and closed them without a care..It's sad but I don't see the industry getting better anytime soon. My dealer in upstate NY use to snocheck 150 new sleds a year and sell another 200 used sleds. Now a dealer near me is lucky to snow check 12 sleds a year and nothing used.
I’m from Minnesota and now currently live in Wisconsin on the Minnesota border and I am one of those guys that would buy a no frills sled. I currently ride a Yamaha viper because I put a lot of trail miles on and it’s arguably the most reliable sled when the miles get up there. It’s also the only naturally aspirated 4 stroke sled on the market with good horsepower. I have nothing against turbos or two strokes, in fact I still ride a YZ 250 2 stroke dirtbike. For me a turbo just adds more complexity and failure points and the reality of a two-stroke is you’re looking at a very expensive rebuild right around that 7000 mile mark. before people get fired up I’m aware they can go longer, but if you’re into high mile riding like I am, rolling the dice when you’re 100 miles away from home is not something I’m into.
Dudes good podcast. I don’t do much insta etc and I have no idea what your names are. Would be helpful for those just finding your podcast to have it somewhere on your vid. Also Cat has struggled in the past - in ‘82 they declared bankruptcy - came back a couple of years later. Textron really screwed Cat when they pulled their name from their four wheelers etc. Also, the power sports industry is like farming - feast or famine.
Today, Textron announced they are pursuing "strategic alternatives" for their powersports business. Generally speaking, "strategic alternatives" in the corporate world 95% of the time means it's for sale.
I newzTV reported today that the Arctic Cat plants in Thief River Falls and St. Cloud will be shut down indefinitely in the middle of 2025 after manufacturing commitments are reached. The employees left will be layed off. If Polaris was smart they would buy their patents and name and build Arctic Cats in Roseau.
@jasons2054 With BRP selling both the Ski-doo and Lynx brands with a different market focus there is no reason that Polaris couldn't do the same with Arctic Cat. Plus there is plenty of money to be made selling parts and accessories for an already installed customer base.
Skidoo does make a cheaper model that uses older technology, I forget the model but they have it out for a couple years now. Seadoo had the same problem, the machines where so expensive they totally lost the younger crowd for sales. Then they came out with the SPARK, this used the old 3 cylinder 4 stroke out of the snowmobile, and had a smaller lightweight molded hull that is more durable than fiberglass, now you see these sparks out on lakes alot up in AB and Sask. Canada.
I bought a 1987 leftover Yamaha SRV in 88,I paid $2200 if I remember correctly and thought it was a lot of money. I could never afford to buy a leftover sled today.
People do not buy cheap sleds. It was not that long ago that skidoo made a air cooled 500ss and i do not think i have ever seen one. I can't remember ever seeing a ski doo freeride outside of a dealer showroom.
It's the same with trucks. Everyone says they want bare bones model but nobody buys them. I have a base model 2022 GMC Sierra and there are a bunch of them in my small town and none are base except mine.
In 1984 I fell in love with snowmobiling. In 1989 I sold all of my snowmobiles because I had completely fallen out of love. Why? Because they are unreliable piles of crap. Every ride was completely over-shadowed by the worry "what is going to break today?" And to pour salt in the wound, every time I relied on a supposed a snowmobile mechanic, things went sideways. So I gave up. And that was 1989, when there were no online video games to play instead. Currently, if any elective activity goes completely sideways, there are MANY other options. I can find something else to do. And all I need to do is sit on my ass. Play video games for roughly free, or pay $10/mile (effectively) to risk a likely breakdown 50 miles from noplace? Hey mom, which should I do? This year I got back into snowmobiling (after 36 years) because they're a lot of fun, and because if I do get that breakdown, then I'll die peacefully as an old man freezing to death in the snow rather than screaming in pain from who know what cancer.
i was gonna ask a question but it was to long for instagram lol, but i found a way to revise it to be shorter lol. would you rather, 30k stocker, or 15k sled with 15k in mods
@@brentcook24 cause in my mind its simple. if you dont care about warranty you can get a matryx rmk, do anything rail related, do a turbo, probably any set of shocks you want, probably pay someone if the sled you found wasnt the right lenght, handlebars and probably more. vs warranty if something breaks
My last new sled was bought in 2018, that’s the last new sled I’m ever buying, once the skidoo turbos were going over 20g I new I’m done with this, sold my 18 skidoo and keeping my Arctic cats. And to be fair Yamaha has been out of the game since the apex chassis, just a blue arctic cat with Yamaha decals.
Arctic Cat had great brand loyalty and Team Arctic pride, TEXTRON came in w/o a clue about the brand, had management running Arctic Cat who never even rode a snowmobile. Their ignorance ran off dealers, employees, customers, etc....just killed the Brand! Sad! About the only thing they are doing right is pausing production for 2026. Why keep flooding the market with new machines when their is an excess of industry supply between all 3 manufacturers. Hard to compete with in season pricing compared to 2-3 new carryover prices. The reset/pause button needed to be hit. Won't be surprised if we see the same pause/streamlining for the other 2 brands announced soon.
If you want to be a better channel, do more research before commenting. Washington, Oregon have been having some of the best early season conditions in years. I just rode two days ago in 3' of powder with another 2-3' base in the Sierras. You also mentioned Ski-doo and Polaris guages without realizing that Arctic Cat's G8 guage by Garmin is hands down, the nicest, most impressive guage out there, not even close.
Midwest is #1 for sales. No snow=no sales. Even our dmv in Minnesota is begging us to buy a trail sticker. Sno x is dead also. Dreg racing without a 4 stroke turbo is history. These manufacturers better move to another side of town.
The way I see it, it's a bunch different factors compounding to kill the sport but there's two big ones. First, it's not necessarily the cost of the sleds and gear that is killing buyers. It's the cost of EVERYTHING ELSE! Food, commodities, vehicles (especially ones that tow snowmobiles!), interest rates, etc. It's the cost of all the other things in life that has cut into discretionary spending (like buying sleds). Secondly, it's the expensive taste and standards of today's snowmobilers. Many have gotten very accustomed to buying the big, bad sleds and tech on that perform at an unnecessarily high level. People now want sleds that can land 30 foot drop offs, float over 10 feet of fresh powder on a 276 inch track and can rip their goddamned arms off with the insane power of today's big bore engines. WHY??? "Cuz it'z kewl"? I'm a free market guy and into innovation and technology but 99.9% of you people DON'T need that shit! All you've done is encouraged the manufacturers to push more, more, more and charge more, more, more instead of making things BETTER. I had a middle-of-the-road 1990 Indy 500. Ran fantastic and was plenty. They ran mid $5000's. I had another middle-of-the-road 2003 ProX 600 for $7600. More than enough sled. An new plain ol' Polaris Indy 650 is plenty of sled for most and would blow away everything in its class in every way from 20 years ago for a relatively affordable price. What do these 3 sleds have in common? Inflation adjusted, they are all in the low $13k range. The thirst for these new $20-25k hyper sleds and mountain monsters is setting the tone and even $15-20k is nothing to sniff at. The overpaying customer has been plenty responsible (or irresponsible) in this, not just manufacturers.
For what it's worth, i believe there was a time frame in the recent past that sleds had more beneficial advancements to make them absolutely great. I'd say 2015-2020. They were selling great and quite honestly worth it (like $15000 mark) for a loaded sled. Then turbos and tech entered. In my opinion, it really took a lot away from the sport and priced the average consumer out. I am thinking/hoping Cat is gonna come outta this ok in the end. Cuz Polaris and Doo dealers are sitting on MOUNTAINS of inventory. Dealers can't give these sleds away right now because they're overpriced... like WAY overpriced
I think the 858 Cat is a good mountain sled chassis, just like any first year model, there will be some bugs to work out. Hopefully they can offer a turbo next year. The major downfall with the Cat IMO is the Alpha skid, it sucks on the trail, and in minimal or spring riding conditions. So they should offer a normal skid as an option. I hope Cat survives, like you guys sad, we need at least 3 brands to compete with each other. Polaris still has reliability issues vs skidoo, but polaris chassis IMO is way better for tree riding and shoot climbing. Good luck to Cat, I hope they survive.
Arctic Cat was building the Yamaha Chassis so of course their Production Volume will be down in 2026.. I assume the 2025 sleds have already been built.
@@AjStoffle Bejing Biden put an Embargo against Russia. Russia was a large market for Yamaha's 2024 was the last year for Yamaha sales every place except for the USA. 2025 is the last year for Yamaha sled sales in the USA
I am counting on a lot of negative flash-back on my comments here. I am an old school 62 and have been active in the sport for 50 years. I don’t know the background of these 3 young men but IMHO it is difficult to comprehend how they can backup much of what was said here. Perhaps if they were to share their backgrounds in the sport in regard to: (1) how long they have been in the sport, (2) how many sleds they have bought in their lifetime, (3) hours spent riding and most importantly (4) what professional experience (I.E. getting paid full-time to do it) working in a dealership, a sled manufacturer or maintenance shop.
I think alot of people are buying used or even buying broken and building it their way because the cost of new. I've went into artic cat and looked at their offerings and they were pretty rude and didn't offer anything better than polaris or skidoo. So I went with a used polaris. But artic cat was my first stop but didn't go well.
what turned me off from arctic cat was my 2018 el tigre had a cracked primary and they were known to fail on 2018-2019 and arctic cat knew about it but when they finally issued a recall for the serious safety hazard.... wasnt to replace the clutch for the defect it was to install shielding that might save your leg
I rode for 30 years got tired of playing the no snow game got tired of having to spend 1200 to ride per weekend going north aint cheap i am southern Minnesota most years are barley ridable here. Sold my last sled 2 winters ago was thinking about getting back in but from what i see looks like another bunk year again overall. Got a friend who works at a Polaris dealer in Minneapolis they are not doing well atm
Hate to hear that, but understand with the no snow and prices! these winters have definitely been brutal and sucks the Midwest has been struggling to get snow. Hoping they get some this winter for the sake of people like your friend in the industry.
South west Mn South Dakota Border area here too Zero snow is killing everyone! I plow snow during the winter last yr lost over $150k this year will be the same it looks like😢
I got a 2020 summit expert for a deal at 14k usd in sweden. It should have been 16k. If I build a 2025 NA expert its 24k usd, maybe I could get it for a little less. And that is not with the big accessory package or turbo. You can spec a sled much higher than that. Crazy money
The new sleds are too expensive. I'm 57, and from the Midwest. Owned mainly Arctic Cats in the 80's and 90's. From the time I was a teenager until my late 20's, I had owned four different sleds. I quit snowmobiling when I moved south in the early 2000s. I moved back to the Midwest in mid 2000's and I made six figures. I wanted to buy a new sled, and couldn't justify the prices. Fast forward to 2022, and I bought two used Arctic Cat trail sleds. A 1999 and 2001 with low miles. Both are in excellent shape. But trying to find parts for these machines, even aftermarket parts are thin. So maybe support the hard-core Midwest riders who don't ride mountain sleds and love ditch banging and trail riding. Keep your turbos and get back to supporting your base.
The manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the market. Who can afford to plunk down almost if not more than $20k for a snowmobile? Most people would probably have to finance it. It's not just snowmobiles, it's watercraft, boats, cars and trucks too.. Unfortunately snowmobiles are the ones getting hit the hardest, being that the riding season is so short. Pricing needs to come down to a more affordable level
I live in Manitoba, 62 yrs old and still love riding. My take on the industry is the only people who are out there are us grey hairs. Rarely see the younger riders out. To expensive, no interest, etc. so glad I grew up when I did.
Come do some mountain riding out in BC. 98% of the riders out here are under 40, lots of young bucks like myself are keeping the sport going. However, the manufacturers are due for a reality check. $30k for a sled is outrageous.
Unfortunately, the price of the sleds followed the age of the users. When the average young person is still lucky to make more then $20 an hour and the price of everything else going up it makes it much less of a priority to get one. Car loans have doubled for everyone, I cant see myself paying on a loan for sled, or even an ATV for that matter.
If the prices were more reasonable like 20 years ago maybe more people would be into the sport. Add up 20K sleds for trail (i know you can grab sport models, but they're still like 15k out the door and most want the higher models) plus hundreds per year for trail sleds and gas prices. I am only 38 with a very strong passion for the sport, and if it were not for that passion then yes I'd probably pull out due to cost.
they cant afford the sport anymore. im 60 and run 20 year machines just for fishing and going out with kids etc. no need for a new 25k machine for me. and cant afford them anyways
I could not have imagined a snowmobile costing more than the first truck I bought. The world has gone completely insane.
Pretty wild the prices on everything these days for sure but definitely crazy how our hobby has turned into such an expensive sport!
As long as they keep selling all of there sleds they will keep jacking up the price. Just like trucks.....I'm convinced that the executives of these companies have the mindset of "If they keep buying, keep increasing the price".
I still own my 2011 Sierra 1500 I bought in 2016 for $25k Canadian, meanwhile my 2023 backcountry was $24k.... ugh. I mean i don't regret my purchase, but i hate how much I had to pay to own it. No where near the deal my 2014 MXZ 600 Sport was for about $11k out the door. I really wish they would boost up the lethargic 600 efi, because i really wanted to grab the backcountry sport 600 but 85hp is just pathetic for an off trail oriented sled with 146x2". They need to add rave valves and tune it up to at least 110hp like the old carb... Then it would be more worth the increased price at $11 (without fees/tax).
The "demand" for more technology in the sleds which in my eyes takes away from the experience.
@@dansteele3930 You mean, like, supply and demand?
Wow. Who woulda thought? 🙄
I think all the manufacturers are pricing people out of the sport. I mean every year they go up thousands. I don’t know how anyone can buy one every year
Couldn’t agree more it’s gotten out of hand! I have no idea how they can correct it but definitely keeping to overproduce and reck the re sale value is not helping any of us.
that and the lack of snow last 4 yrs in the northeast! wouldn’t want to be a dealer that’s for sure 😢
Totally 10 years ago when you get a top of line sled for 12-14k and you could work 10-20 ot shifts a year to cover the cost of that. 30k ? Comon
Way way way over priced all of them.people are not gonna spend that much money on a mabie sport weather relaint.
Absolutely. The average family can't get into the sports. My only hobby is snowmobiling . Low snow has a lot of die hards rethinking.
The entire industrybis pricing us out of the sport, a gallon of oil $75; a belt going on $250, $1200+ for a monosuit, goggles, the list goes on.
True. Time to go back to the ole Carhartt mono suits, buy a greasy triple and rip like its 1999
@@2sleds1summit Can't beat the smell and sound from those old sleds and they hauled the mail on a lake.
And the new sleds are junk
Don’t forget the $16k enclosed trailer
new sleds in the states are 20 grand...ru kidding me? wow i had a 2003 skidoo MXZ 800 brand new for 3500.00$ its nuts
Snowmobiles that are 20k plus dollars is crazy. Parts are outrageous, the sport in itself is crazy expensive.
Side by sides are crazy overpriced if anyone hasn't noticed.
@@gordonliddy9418yeah but you can ride side by sides longer in the year. They are still way to expensive for something that isn't road legal
The snowmobile and marine industries have been bending us over for years, and we keep smiling. The walls are starting to tumble down my friends.
Retired out of the game now, but as a 45+ year veteran snowcat rider with deep experience from ditch banging, ice racing, mountain riding, trail rider, et al that last bought a Polaris Pro RMK 800HO around 2019, that sled was way more capable than I was and got me into places I shouldn't be at that stage in my life for under $11k OTD. Most amazing thing I'd ever ridden, all the years of dumping huge $$$$ into mod sleds, out the box it was the best you could ask for. What else could you really need than that? Had huge fun seasons on M7 Cats, Escape RMKs, Rev Summits, Mountain Max triples, but the lightness of the Pro chassis Polaris with a hot twin 800 or Summit Gen4, honestly what else does 85-90% of the market actually need? Economics of owning toys is gone and the lifeblood of the sport, working class men 18-40 is gone. No one can afford multiple toys at $15k-25k+ each, vehicle and trailer to pull them at $60K+, fuel at $5/gal to run them, consumable parts that don't last for $2k/season, etc etc etc. Sad but it'll all go away- all because of corporate greed via investor paybacks for the OEMs, ridiculous federal regulations, and ultimately lack of interest and feasibility of ownership by the next generations. The world can't finance it way to sustainability for everything.....
Oh yeah, and a thing called a changing climate. 72 year old trail rider here. I have a 2004 Firecat F7 EFI NightFire. Last time on the snow was back in 2008. Sitting in near climate control storage with 800 miles on the OD. It has become such an expensive destination sport, I just could not keep up after buying my first home.
totally agree skating and skiing is gone also! Use to love the pond hockey days and skiing at local hills! Its all gone dosent' even get cold enough to skate and the ski areas are all closed!!!!!!!
I’m 30. When I was a kid in Michigan, every kid my age had a carbed 440 or something that would ride around on. Now I don’t even know kids in my area that would have a sled, and the winters have been so inconsistent I don’t know where or when they would ride them. It’s terribly sad, the end of an era. Now everyone just rides side by sides.
Definitely crazy we have to find a way to keep the younger generations in the sport for sure! Having access to places to ride and affordable sleds to ride. Side by sides have definitely started to take over
I’m a big fan of Arctic cat from MI and my heart really goes out to them. All of snowmobiling is hurting right now. Arctic cat needs a fresh start. Only make trail sleds, focus on building a cheaper more affordable sled and getting families back into riding again. They need to re-kindle the passion for snowmobiling again and the Arctic cat name that sparked such a huge cult following.
Absolutely agree!
Been riding cat since I was 7 years old....super depressed!
I got back into snowmobiling in '93 when I moved to New England. I bought an '88 Polaris 400 for $2800. I hung out with guys who all rode new Polaris 500s. I think they were around $5500. We all had a great time sledding in CT, NY, NH, VT and even up into Quebec. For almost no money...Quite a contrast to 2024 costs...
We used to only race on the open lakes and at drags! Now the riders drive wide open on the trails! I had to beat some sense into a punk last winter that almost killed my friend. 😮😢
Snowmobiling has definitely become a hobby for the higher income people. When I was a kid in the 80's everyone had a snowmobile, now there's hardly any kids with sleds. Low snow and high prices are the biggest cause of this. Another problem is people seem to think if they don't have the top of the line sled they aren't going to have any performance. The fact is a bottom level 600 still has tremendous performance vs just a few years ago. Not everyone can afford a bmw m5 just like not everyone is entitled to be able to afford a boost, 9r or doo 850 turbos.
I agree 100% not everyone needs the top of the line, you just need something to get out and have fun
Yep. I have 1 2008 and 3 2009 Ski-Doo Summits. All were bought used at different times with ~1500 miles on them. All had small repairs needed when I got them, but I'm still into them and a used 4-position trailer for less than $9K. Yes they need some work occasionally, but all snowmobiles do. My family enjoys them immensely.
My boys will each get one of these when they move out of the house, and when the last one goes I'll buy a new one for myself.
@@brentcook24 I see Textron just suspended 25 production indefinitely.. pretty sad if they are done.
Almost everyone had a snowmobile around here also. I live between the two Minnesota snowmobile producers and now a fraction have newer snowmobile models. The rest ride 20+ year old machines or don't ride anymore. The ridiculous prices of everything is killing the powersports market.
I remember in the 1990s that the most popular models were in the 500 - 600 cc range. The top models weren't as popular.
@@jasons2054 Because everyone wasn't in a social media pissing match in the 1990s. If we're honest, most of us don't have the skill to put a top of the line machine to the test. Most putt around on the trail, and occasionally get off onto a meadow that is easy to see from the trail. I see it on every ride. I have gone with people that won't take their turbo 850 mountain sleds off trail, and are freaked out that I'm sidehilling on my 15 year old sleds.
It's not just snowmobiling and recreational... it's nearly every industry. Agriculture equipment is out of whack with poor prices and ungodly expensive equipment... which in turn affects the rest of the population, which comes full circle back to snowmobiles and recreational.
When people's pocket books can't pencil out expenses, a lot of things take a back seat.
Amen the ag market is a huge with this as well
We got no snow last year in maine we had 1 week of snowmobiling most lakes and rivers didnt even freez!
BRP reignited the PWC industry with the Saprk. Those things are everywhere, to me looks like it worked like a charm and had a positive effect on the entire industry. Obviously the snowmobile market and pwc market are different but still similar enough that I think the method of cutting bells and whistles making it simple fun and affordable could work. I hate to watch this happen. Snowmobiling is such a unique amazing sport!
Prices are insane! Of course they are
The lack of snow in the USA makes it very expensive to be in this sport.
Already been through all of this in the early 80's. It's a long haul, and things will be different coming out the other side.
The prices are crazy and to much of the upper midwest doesn't get much snow anymore.
Here in sw Michigan you don't have the snow lately. Locally here in the past snow was abundant. The 6 yr stretch got less miles than 1 season used too so who needs a new sled..
I don’t even ride anymore but I hope to god Arctic Cat does not go under they used to be the coolest company building the most bad ass machines in the game we need companies like that in this world
Great podcast, I'm glad that UA-cam recommended this, you covered so many good points. I've been on snowmobiles since riding on my Dads 1972 Olympic in the mid 70's. We had real snow cover and people were into building and maintaining trails riding from town to town. I have so many great memories of those years.. My first new machine was in 1997 and I doubt I'll ever buy a new one. Snow cover is minimal and the local landowners have moved on, and trail access is limited locally. What used to be a regular winter family sport for so many people has been narrowed down to people willing to take on the expense of destination riding with $120K truck/ trailer combos, $15K+ sleds and thousands in cabin rentals and gear...
Thus is the impact of demographic ageing of the baby boom leaving/ageing out of the market. Harley Davidson, Gold Courses, and Automotive too.
Recalls was also a huge thing for buying a certain brand
Ski-doo makes a snowmobile for absolutely every niche of the market! And this makes it very difficult to for Arctic Cat and even Polaris to maintain a profitable market share. I bought an Expedition Extreme 850 a couple of years ago and when I crossed shopped other the other brands I was truly stunned about how much more selection Skidoo has in their line up.
Skidoo definitely does a great job at covering the entire market!
Your comment about bare stock truck. I bought a couple in the 90s. I modified it way cheaper than the dealer options. Radio, tires rims etc. Not a bad philosophy
The second year of a chassis isn’t necessarily a complete drop off because some wait a year to make sure all first year issues are taken care of. Year 3 is your dip year
You’re 100% right there for sure! I was definitely one of those people that had it planned for second year we will see!
Ski doo sport models were a smart idea!!
Most definitely!
I debated buying a yamaha 400 venom on 2022 but ended up buying a 22 backcountry 600efi for $9000 new
The best selling SKU in Ski Doo's lineup is the expedition sport 600efi. A $10,000 dependable sled would sell.
To expensive and it's to warm in a lot of areas I can tell you that here in NJ when I was a kid in early 70s there were snowmobiles everywhere we hardly get any snow at all and it's the same a lot of other states as well
Like always I love the content. Definitely better on the sound quality this time. Cant wait for the video in the mountain on thursday!!!!
Thank you! And thank you hopefully on the right track for better and better!
Myself, I just never got it with snowmobiles, they are seasonal, have gotten ridiculously heavy, easy to get stuck, hard to get out. I've noticed in Canada where my wife and I go fishing, it has switched to side by sides in the snow, ice fishing in the last years.
I live by Gaylord Michigan and have a cabin in the upper peninsula Michigan, I see very few artic cat's anymore, very small player now, mostly ski Doo then Polaris, we've had low snow year's 3 years in a row and looking like 4 year's now, plus the post covid prices are rediculous, we have more utv permits sold in Michigan now than snow permits, it's a dieing sport, greedy manufacturers killed the golden goose
If people want the additional features, be they on a pickup or a sled, then offer them as separate OEM add-ons. Manufacturers did this regularly until the 2010s.
The whole industry is making crazy expensive atv, snowmobiles, utv with marginal quality which spend more time at the dealer than the trails. The whole industry priced themselves, can’t blame anyone but themselves
I live in south GA. I've never even seen a snow machine in person before. So I have no clue why I listened to this entire podcast. And was interested the whole time.. Hahaha. I did use to b a huge arctic cat atv fan back in the day. They were on the cutting edge about 20 years ago. But the atv development just STOPPED about 2007..
its simple,50% of market doesn't live where there is snow to ride 6 months a year. people aren't buying $20k sled to ride a few weekends a year.
I agree
The other 50% that live in those areas they can ride 6 months a year can’t afford a 20k sled. I make 120k a year and still can’t find it in myself to buy a sled that costs that.
So don’t buy a 20k sled?
You can buy a last years model 650 for 11-12k. 10 years ago the MSRP of a Rush 600 was 10k, which in inflation adjusted dollars is $14,500 in 2024. The Matryx is a WAY better sled too.
What current model snowmobile compares to the 90's snowmobiles like an XLT and then compare the costs. Its not as bad as you think, the problem is we all want the top of the line machines.
I remember riding way back in the late 80s and early 90s you could buy a belt for 30$ now the same belt is 150$ plus you could buy runners wear bars for 20$ oil was 1$ quart helmets good one 75$ jackets were like 75$ tops now same jacket is 500$ all day. The sport has killed itself in a way. I refuse to buy new all that efi garbage no way electronics an snow/moisture is not good later. Having all those sensors feeding off each other in stupid carbs work fine less crap to deal with later having to take a sled to a dealer for all work is dumb. 1 sensor goes bad way out in the North 40 you are done
Thank the government for that! The epa regs get stricker and strickter
Fuel injected sleds always start, no matter how upside down you get in the mountains. Carbs are for the birds. But I'm in agreement on the $500 jackets and such. It's crazy expensive when you add in the truck and travel costs.
I spoke with the Track 2 Trail dealership owner in Sioux Falls, SD and he claimed powersports in general have just been selling extremely poor. The only new items people can afford is the ones with little to no extra options. I blame the government for printing all that money and handing out to everyone during covid. Created all this big boom in the economy and now its all a thing of the past.
I purchased my m600 catalyst for 9k off a lot. Have had no issues great trail sled can do deep snow. But ya nothing was selling last year. I will say honestly I love my m8000 way more than the catalyst. It is way more stable in deep snow. The short body on the 600 does some weird things in deep snow.
The longest lasting sleds were made in early 90s to early 2000's,weighed more but built stronger
I bought my 22’ Hardcore for like 16k out the door in MN. Now the local dealer is selling brand new M8000s for 10k and they can’t get rid of them. Used sleds aren’t moving at giveaway prices either! I’m not buying new anymore. I’ll just buy a year old sled with 200 miles on it next year for 8k less from a private party and skip paying all the bullshit dealer fees and taxes.
Good plan, but ultimately if no one is buying new there won’t be any used. BTW new sleds in Japan are way more expensive than even the US. In the countryside where I live you can buy a decent house for less than a new Cat.
Ex sledder here, this has become a very expensive sport, and many are priced out of it. Also, here in New England a lack of snow ❄️ doesn't help!
They’re marketing teams are doing amazing work, guys buy into the hype. Im probably an outlier but I still have my G4, it owes me nothing. I wrench on it myself almost every week but im in the sport with a few hundred dollars a year. If you can’t afford a brandnew sled every year just maintain your current sled. Yea a turbo or a big bore would be nice but the chassis haven’t changed much for the last 4-5years. My 2 cent
I agree the marketing teams are doing great! That is what a lot of people do it's a smart move!
Same!! I do my best to make sure my older sled is running and maintained.... you wanna ride.. just gotta make it work
If arctic cat hired a media team like a bunch of 20-30 year olds, to make a podcast and youtube channel and stuff, they would blossom and that would gain them easily 50m a year.
All 3 of these guys know exactly what’s going on. I cant see a good outcome if these prices don’t come down. We have to remember how many bailouts BRP skidoo have been gone through. I don’t even own a skidoo and I’m paying taxes because we got an idiot for a prime minister that gave the bailout.
I think you've got your wires crossed. BRP is separate from Bombardier and hasn't taken any bailouts since the company was split.
@ how old are you???
@@fasterdura1772 47
He is correct,our Crime minister is a total idiot.
I think the economy is pricing people out, everything is getting expensive. Its hard to justify dropping $ on a toy when snow has been spotty over last couple years when people are hurting.
The base model 858 has an MSRP of just under 16k USD. By most reports even the base model shocks are pretty decent on the Cat. So you can still get a decent entry level sled that has all the other goodies of the flagship sled minus the G8 and higher end shocks for reasonable.
I understand why they did the 600 last year but don’t get why its there for this year. By all accounts its not saving you weight and not saving that much $ over a base model 858.
I have only played with my G8 gauge in the garage so far but I think its way ahead of the polaris. Havent messed with the doo gauge.
I think a lot of people like the feeling of a 600 they claim it revs faster and is easier to ride for some people. That is what a lot of people claim at least. I don't have one. I agree things are soooooo expensive!
As a 65 years old Alberta Canadian ive been sledding since 1968 bought a new 1970 340 skiroule for 750 bux . Been riding cats since 1990 when Cat come out with the 1990 Prowler and had about ten new ones since
Brother and i bought a new 2016 and 2017 Acrtic cat 800 mountain cats new none current sleds in 2019 and wrote a check for 16 k . 6 years later and 25 k wont buy you one new one . Ive seen the industry go from over 75 manufacturers too now two . Its all corporate greed .Too much money in two few of hands. Sad world . So in 45 years they went from 750 bux to 25 k .They priced themselves out of business. I dont agree with you that claim that Skudoo and Bullaris being superior. i've done lots of prarie riding and mountain riding and Cat kicked a lot of ass .
Just bought a new Ski Doo 4 stroke and now have to sell one of my Arctic Cat's. The 2002 ZL550 has given 2 decades of repair free pleasure and it's warm to drive. The 2018 ZR8000 constantly got warranty recall issues ( is at the dealer now; two weeks) and it's cold to drive. Can't wait to get it home to sell it. Never another Cat. Most of my sleds have been Polaris but gave up in 2006 when they started using biodegradable pistons. So it's up to Ski Doo to keep me sledding.
Ski doo makes the best sleds in the industry hands down. Iv owned a few up of them an never had issues.
They all have their problems when buying a new sled but some have more than others for sure.
I owned a 2002 ZL 550 and had a couple of Cougar 550 L/Cs before that. They were only 80 HP engines, but absolutely bulletproof simple piston port engines with dual VM38 carbs. They would run and run with little maintenance.
Polaris was buying pistons and motor parts from Mahle who I think also sells parts to Rotax/Ski Doo from what I know. Maybe this changed?
Yes , really short season , simple reason less cold to freeze lakes, less snow to make trails, global warming mostly rain , goes for the ski hills too,
Its not just snowmobiles, its literally everything that's become too expensive. Were living in times of big monopolies and that is the end of story. The thing we should be talking about is how to break them up.
Definitely crazy how our hobby has gotten so expensive, but you’re 100% right everything is crazily priced these days!
TOTALLY AGREE!!!
I'd love to get into the sport. I have cousins that are heavily into it. But $15-20K for a sled, then another 5k or more for a trailer... plus the lack of snow in the New England area for the past 4-5 years... forget it. Not worth it.
I bought a new 2024 Catalyst Riot 600 1.75 that my dealer had leftover. I used to buy a new sled every other year or so, but now it's like every 7 or 8 years. The other issue, at least where I live in the Black Hills, SD (baby mountains) they only stock a few crossover sleds, and those sell out right away while dozens and dozens of mountain sleds just sit. It's assumed that everyone has the time and money to travel out west all winter long, but very few do.
I live in the North Dakota red river valley literally the flattest land on planet earth yet when you go to a dealership 90 percent of the sleds are mountain sleds, you have to drive at least 15 hours 1 direction to see a mountain from here
My last new sled was bought in 2018, that’s the last new sled I’m ever buying, once the skidoo turbos were going over 20g I new I’m done with this, sold my 18 skidoo and keeping my Arctic cats.
I see this huge pricing increase as a means to charge what the manufacturers feel they can at this point to maximize profits. It’s a move that will slowly backfire as consumers on the whole cannot afford these prices.
Imo the single biggest issue is used sled values or even the ability to sell them at all. They sold so many machines over covid so there's a glut of used stuff on the market that u can't give away. So you're losing like 15k on your 2 year old sled that you've had out 6 times. I was considering getting the 858 but the dealer just kinda laughed when I asked him about trade value
Ya the used market is why I didn't get a new one this year as well. Just didn't make sense for me.
The wakeboard boat industry is the same way, pricing many people out of the sport. Interest rates, taxes keep me from ever going new on sleds. So I buy a low mile used sled . New 20k+ is getting wild.
Im sticking with 2002 mxz 700 I was going to get a newer sled but I ended up getting a yamaha raptor 700 I get more use out of it.
Makes sense
You guys are close but let me clue in on manufacturing. I work for a high end auto manufacture,we can produce an suv for 30k and turn around and sell that SUV for almost 200k. With inflation now at its highest point in decades and winter sport manufacturers that 20+k machine was built for 45 hundred dollars, now the manufacturers mark up the 45 hundred dollar machine to the dealer for 11 to 12k and they in turn mark it up to 20k +. This is unsastainable for the market today because of inflation and a shortend riding season.
Back to your truck question. If Dodge built a 93 Cummins 4x4 exactly the way they were originally built. Im guessing it would be a 40 thousand dollar truck. They wouldn't be able to keep em on the lot.
I bought a 99 Zl600 in 2000 for $3200. I thought that was plenty then for a toy that depends on getting snow. Wouldn't even think of spending 20k for one now. Manufacturers priced themselves out of business. Brilliant business plan there fellas.
Hard to sell snowmobile's when you got no snow.
I don’t have a snowmobile and I’ve never snowmobiles but I just saw the news about the factory shutting down.
As an outsider here’s the biggest problem. I think a snowmobile can cost $13,999. For a recreational toy that you can only use a handful of times a years that’s insane.
Let's put it this way in the side by side industry , I'm starting to see alot more CF motos out there cause they're cheap 🤷♂️🤔
I grew up on a yamaha 300 twin special that I loved, and it was cheap and ran great! The sleds now are awesome but wayyyy too expensive.
I know a bunch of people who would get new sleds including me if they made the less expensive sleds. Last time I bought new, I paid 10k. Was all the sled I wanted and would buy same sled today for that price.
I use to buy a new sled every year or every two years at most. I started buying new in 95 until the 2010's. The prices just got crazy every year and today they are insane...
I bought Cat too and think they make great sleds.. The entire industry is destroying itself. I have seen it at the dealer level in the early 2000's. They screwed over dealers and closed them without a care..It's sad but I don't see the industry getting better anytime soon.
My dealer in upstate NY use to snocheck 150 new sleds a year and sell another 200 used sleds. Now a dealer near me is lucky to snow check 12 sleds a year and nothing used.
Ya there are certainly problems. Out here at least there are a lot of expensive sleds sold!
I’m from Minnesota and now currently live in Wisconsin on the Minnesota border and I am one of those guys that would buy a no frills sled. I currently ride a Yamaha viper because I put a lot of trail miles on and it’s arguably the most reliable sled when the miles get up there. It’s also the only naturally aspirated 4 stroke sled on the market with good horsepower. I have nothing against turbos or two strokes, in fact I still ride a YZ 250 2 stroke dirtbike. For me a turbo just adds more complexity and failure points and the reality of a two-stroke is you’re looking at a very expensive rebuild right around that 7000 mile mark. before people get fired up I’m aware they can go longer, but if you’re into high mile riding like I am, rolling the dice when you’re 100 miles away from home is not something I’m into.
Dudes good podcast. I don’t do much insta etc and I have no idea what your names are. Would be helpful for those just finding your podcast to have it somewhere on your vid.
Also Cat has struggled in the past - in ‘82 they declared bankruptcy - came back a couple of years later. Textron really screwed Cat when they pulled their name from their four wheelers etc. Also, the power sports industry is like farming - feast or famine.
Today, Textron announced they are pursuing "strategic alternatives" for their powersports business. Generally speaking, "strategic alternatives" in the corporate world 95% of the time means it's for sale.
I newzTV reported today that the Arctic Cat plants in Thief River Falls and St. Cloud will be shut down indefinitely in the middle of 2025 after manufacturing commitments are reached. The employees left will be layed off.
If Polaris was smart they would buy their patents and name and build Arctic Cats in Roseau.
@jasons2054 With BRP selling both the Ski-doo and Lynx brands with a different market focus there is no reason that Polaris couldn't do the same with Arctic Cat. Plus there is plenty of money to be made selling parts and accessories for an already installed customer base.
Skidoo does make a cheaper model that uses older technology, I forget the model but they have it out for a couple years now. Seadoo had the same problem, the machines where so expensive they totally lost the younger crowd for sales. Then they came out with the SPARK, this used the old 3 cylinder 4 stroke out of the snowmobile, and had a smaller lightweight molded hull that is more durable than fiberglass, now you see these sparks out on lakes alot up in AB and Sask. Canada.
Your question on cheaper makes me think of Kawasaki KRX vs Polaris or can am. 2/3 the price better quality but less power and some performance
I bought a 1987 leftover Yamaha SRV in 88,I paid $2200 if I remember correctly and thought it was a lot of money. I could never afford to buy a leftover sled today.
People do not buy cheap sleds. It was not that long ago that skidoo made a air cooled 500ss and i do not think i have ever seen one. I can't remember ever seeing a ski doo freeride outside of a dealer showroom.
It's the same with trucks. Everyone says they want bare bones model but nobody buys them. I have a base model 2022 GMC Sierra and there are a bunch of them in my small town and none are base except mine.
@mjuhanil I really like the Chevrolet work model silverodos. They are about as basic as you can get without sacrificing too much.
Bet you meant the SkiDoo Freestyle? Yeah I think seen maybe 1 in person.
In 1984 I fell in love with snowmobiling. In 1989 I sold all of my snowmobiles because I had completely fallen out of love. Why? Because they are unreliable piles of crap. Every ride was completely over-shadowed by the worry "what is going to break today?" And to pour salt in the wound, every time I relied on a supposed a snowmobile mechanic, things went sideways. So I gave up. And that was 1989, when there were no online video games to play instead. Currently, if any elective activity goes completely sideways, there are MANY other options. I can find something else to do. And all I need to do is sit on my ass. Play video games for roughly free, or pay $10/mile (effectively) to risk a likely breakdown 50 miles from noplace? Hey mom, which should I do? This year I got back into snowmobiling (after 36 years) because they're a lot of fun, and because if I do get that breakdown, then I'll die peacefully as an old man freezing to death in the snow rather than screaming in pain from who know what cancer.
i was gonna ask a question but it was to long for instagram lol, but i found a way to revise it to be shorter lol. would you rather, 30k stocker, or 15k sled with 15k in mods
Good question we will answer that in the next one! Thank you
@@brentcook24 cause in my mind its simple. if you dont care about warranty you can get a matryx rmk, do anything rail related, do a turbo, probably any set of shocks you want, probably pay someone if the sled you found wasnt the right lenght, handlebars and probably more. vs warranty if something breaks
No snow! That's a big part of the problem.
My last new sled was bought in 2018, that’s the last new sled I’m ever buying, once the skidoo turbos were going over 20g I new I’m done with this, sold my 18 skidoo and keeping my Arctic cats.
And to be fair Yamaha has been out of the game since the apex chassis, just a blue arctic cat with Yamaha decals.
Arctic Cat had great brand loyalty and Team Arctic pride, TEXTRON came in w/o a clue about the brand, had management running Arctic Cat who never even rode a snowmobile. Their ignorance ran off dealers, employees, customers, etc....just killed the Brand! Sad! About the only thing they are doing right is pausing production for 2026. Why keep flooding the market with new machines when their is an excess of industry supply between all 3 manufacturers. Hard to compete with in season pricing compared to 2-3 new carryover prices. The reset/pause button needed to be hit. Won't be surprised if we see the same pause/streamlining for the other 2 brands announced soon.
sooooooooo today artic cat pulled the plug.
If you want to be a better channel, do more research before commenting. Washington, Oregon have been having some of the best early season conditions in years. I just rode two days ago in 3' of powder with another 2-3' base in the Sierras. You also mentioned Ski-doo and Polaris guages without realizing that Arctic Cat's G8 guage by Garmin is hands down, the nicest, most impressive guage out there, not even close.
Midwest is #1 for sales. No snow=no sales. Even our dmv in Minnesota is begging us to buy a trail sticker. Sno x is dead also. Dreg racing without a 4 stroke turbo is history. These manufacturers better move to another side of town.
Gauge, A before U. 😉.
The way I see it, it's a bunch different factors compounding to kill the sport but there's two big ones. First, it's not necessarily the cost of the sleds and gear that is killing buyers. It's the cost of EVERYTHING ELSE! Food, commodities, vehicles (especially ones that tow snowmobiles!), interest rates, etc. It's the cost of all the other things in life that has cut into discretionary spending (like buying sleds). Secondly, it's the expensive taste and standards of today's snowmobilers. Many have gotten very accustomed to buying the big, bad sleds and tech on that perform at an unnecessarily high level. People now want sleds that can land 30 foot drop offs, float over 10 feet of fresh powder on a 276 inch track and can rip their goddamned arms off with the insane power of today's big bore engines. WHY??? "Cuz it'z kewl"? I'm a free market guy and into innovation and technology but 99.9% of you people DON'T need that shit! All you've done is encouraged the manufacturers to push more, more, more and charge more, more, more instead of making things BETTER. I had a middle-of-the-road 1990 Indy 500. Ran fantastic and was plenty. They ran mid $5000's. I had another middle-of-the-road 2003 ProX 600 for $7600. More than enough sled. An new plain ol' Polaris Indy 650 is plenty of sled for most and would blow away everything in its class in every way from 20 years ago for a relatively affordable price. What do these 3 sleds have in common? Inflation adjusted, they are all in the low $13k range. The thirst for these new $20-25k hyper sleds and mountain monsters is setting the tone and even $15-20k is nothing to sniff at. The overpaying customer has been plenty responsible (or irresponsible) in this, not just manufacturers.
700.00 for my Bombardier,,1969 olympia 👍🏁
For what it's worth, i believe there was a time frame in the recent past that sleds had more beneficial advancements to make them absolutely great. I'd say 2015-2020. They were selling great and quite honestly worth it (like $15000 mark) for a loaded sled. Then turbos and tech entered. In my opinion, it really took a lot away from the sport and priced the average consumer out.
I am thinking/hoping Cat is gonna come outta this ok in the end. Cuz Polaris and Doo dealers are sitting on MOUNTAINS of inventory. Dealers can't give these sleds away right now because they're overpriced... like WAY overpriced
I think the 858 Cat is a good mountain sled chassis, just like any first year model, there will be some bugs to work out. Hopefully they can offer a turbo next year. The major downfall with the Cat IMO is the Alpha skid, it sucks on the trail, and in minimal or spring riding conditions. So they should offer a normal skid as an option. I hope Cat survives, like you guys sad, we need at least 3 brands to compete with each other. Polaris still has reliability issues vs skidoo, but polaris chassis IMO is way better for tree riding and shoot climbing. Good luck to Cat, I hope they survive.
Arctic Cat was building the Yamaha Chassis so of course their Production Volume will be down in 2026.. I assume the 2025 sleds have already been built.
Yes agree volume will definitely drop and yes I believe they said all 2025 production was finished before their lay offs started.
@@AjStoffle Bejing Biden put an Embargo against Russia. Russia was a large market for Yamaha's 2024 was the last year for Yamaha sales every place except for the USA.
2025 is the last year for Yamaha sled sales in the USA
They won't be any 2026
I am counting on a lot of negative flash-back on my comments here. I am an old school 62 and have been active in the sport for 50 years. I don’t know the background of these 3 young men but IMHO it is difficult to comprehend how they can backup much of what was said here. Perhaps if they were to share their backgrounds in the sport in regard to: (1) how long they have been in the sport, (2) how many sleds they have bought in their lifetime, (3) hours spent riding and most importantly (4) what professional experience (I.E. getting paid full-time to do it) working in a dealership, a sled manufacturer or maintenance shop.
I think alot of people are buying used or even buying broken and building it their way because the cost of new. I've went into artic cat and looked at their offerings and they were pretty rude and didn't offer anything better than polaris or skidoo. So I went with a used polaris. But artic cat was my first stop but didn't go well.
In my eyes the epa and emissions standards is one of the big issues in price of new sleds over the last 20 years.
what turned me off from arctic cat was my 2018 el tigre had a cracked primary and they were known to fail on 2018-2019 and arctic cat knew about it but when they finally issued a recall for the serious safety hazard.... wasnt to replace the clutch for the defect it was to install shielding that might save your leg
Man im devastated right now
I rode for 30 years got tired of playing the no snow game got tired of having to spend 1200 to ride per weekend going north aint cheap i am southern Minnesota most years are barley ridable here. Sold my last sled 2 winters ago was thinking about getting back in but from what i see looks like another bunk year again overall. Got a friend who works at a Polaris dealer in Minneapolis they are not doing well atm
Hate to hear that, but understand with the no snow and prices! these winters have definitely been brutal and sucks the Midwest has been struggling to get snow. Hoping they get some this winter for the sake of people like your friend in the industry.
South west Mn South Dakota Border area here too Zero snow is killing everyone! I plow snow during the winter last yr lost over $150k this year will be the same it looks like😢
The stuff you are spewing about Arctic Cat isn’t exactly true. I’m a dealer, we can still get parts and sleds.
I got a 2020 summit expert for a deal at 14k usd in sweden. It should have been 16k. If I build a 2025 NA expert its 24k usd, maybe I could get it for a little less. And that is not with the big accessory package or turbo. You can spec a sled much higher than that. Crazy money
The new sleds are too expensive. I'm 57, and from the Midwest. Owned mainly Arctic Cats in the 80's and 90's. From the time I was a teenager until my late 20's, I had owned four different sleds. I quit snowmobiling when I moved south in the early 2000s. I moved back to the Midwest in mid 2000's and I made six figures. I wanted to buy a new sled, and couldn't justify the prices. Fast forward to 2022, and I bought two used Arctic Cat trail sleds. A 1999 and 2001 with low miles. Both are in excellent shape. But trying to find parts for these machines, even aftermarket parts are thin. So maybe support the hard-core Midwest riders who don't ride mountain sleds and love ditch banging and trail riding. Keep your turbos and get back to supporting your base.
I quit snowmobileing when Wisconsin decided to put a trial pass of $30 a year on top of the registration fee.they wrecked it for me.
no snow back east here for like the last 4 yrs....
We needs affordable sleds for everyday people like in the 70 and 80
The manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the market. Who can afford to plunk down almost if not more than $20k for a snowmobile? Most people would probably have to finance it. It's not just snowmobiles, it's watercraft, boats, cars and trucks too.. Unfortunately snowmobiles are the ones getting hit the hardest, being that the riding season is so short. Pricing needs to come down to a more affordable level