Fire Emblem Awakening || The Price of Player Choice
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- At many points in Fire Emblem Awakening, the game presents the player with a choice, which it proceeds to completely ignore directly afterwards. So today, we explore possible reasons for why these player choices are there in the first place and what Intelligent Systems was trying to accomplish with their inclusion.
Footage
Shadowofchaos ( / shadowofchaos725 )
Phoenixmaster1 ( / pheonixmaster1 )
Omega ( / omegaevolution )
Audio
Faith and Engagement ( • 【公式試聴動画】「FIRE EMBLEM M... )
Twitter - @PaviseFE
Sacrifice Emmeryn?
Yes.
No.
Have Emmeryn join Smash.
FyrFlyr *Smash fan tantrums commence*
@@yourconscience8018 *Hoes mad intensifies*
Emmeryn smashes into the ground
I don't dislike the idea of the player choice scenarios in Awakening. However, the player choices would hold a lot more impact if these choices altered dialogue in other scenes in the game, or alter how characters like Chrom, Lissa, Lucina, or Flavia view the avatar based on the choices made.
I agree. The choices in Awakening seemed too superficial. In a theatrical sense, I was taught "when giving an audience a choice, how many endings do you think are written? Just one: the one the creator assumes you'll make.". If there were some way to write a Fire Emblem game similar to MGS or something, where your choices can impact the story or a character's outlook of you, it would add a bit more of a personal touch, but it would require that much more effort, too.
This is the issue with choice in fire emblem, not that choice by definition is the problem but that it must be fleshed our far more like other RPGs, such as Mass effect, Persona and the Witcher.
@@tjstarzz9231 then maybe the creator should stop assuming and instead aeither make multiple endings or stop puting choices its just lazy and deceptfull
I personally think that in the case before Emmeryn's death, it was fine. I mean, immediate thoughts after realizing that it was an illusionary choice will naturally lead to feeling cheated or frustrated, but like you said, that's the point. It really drove home how much she cared for Chrom and company, the ramifications and helplessness that the war was causing and the pointlessness of it all, which is presented really well in chapter 10.
Having said that, your choice having more of an impact than the few throwaway lines that were given would've been appreciated, even if that impact didn't necessarily affect the plot. i also think the Lucina one was weak.
Aleczandxr Kind of stupid when you clearly have an entire army literally capable of taking down the enemy. If you have like a hundred people that have taken on entire armies then why not deploy everybody? Like for fucks sake this series sucks.
The problem is not taking on an entire army.
The problem is doing it QUICKLY before she dies. Which, in that scenario, was impossible.
Lucina one was weak?
not it was brain dead why would my game Avatar the person I use to project myself die at any point before the games end?
I saw the choices in game were illusion the instant I saw them
Holy fuck, aleczandxr both has played fe and watched pavise. That's pretty cool imo
I like in Conquest where it basically asks “hey you want this cool pre promote or his boots?”
Clone72400 bro, I'm crying. but on a serious note, I can't agree because he has great utility for the time he joins, and has a Killer Bow
PiplupsRock Tfw I pick boots cause I used Shura religiously on the other routes, just so someone else had a chance.
Lmao I never knew you could get a boots for killing Ashura. Should have do it ;_;
I think I never actually chose to save him because I didn't even know he has a killer bow... Oopsie. Idk I just value boots more
Emmeryn's death is so underrated. Easily the second-saddest parent-figure death in fire emblem, topped only by fe9. I remember sitting at that choice screen for a good ten minutes before finally choosing to give up the fire emblem. Logically, that would be the wrong choice, but I couldn't bring myself to sacrifice Chrom's sister after all the effort we'd put into saving her. When Emmeryn started going into her goodbye speech I remember slowly realizing what she was about to do, and feeling completely helpless as I watched her fall. (Lissa covering her eyes in that cutscene is the most heartbreaking thing ever)
I felt frustrated at first that my choice had no lasting effect, but thinking about it later, I realized that was exactly how I was supposed to feel. The illusion of a choice there really puts you into the shoes of the characters, and makes you feel just as cheated as they do. Why did Emmeryn have to die? She was selfless and innocent! None of it feels fair, and it's all Gangrel's fault for forcing this pointless war on everyone. If you didn't despise him before chapter 9, you certainly will afterward, and that makes the final confrontation in chapter 11 so much more satisfying.
I know not everyone sees it the way I do. I can definitely understand why people hate the non-choice so much, but I personally loved the effect it had on my playthrough.
Blue Moon I can’t agree more with what you’ve said here! This is definitely one of the more emotional points in the game. Not realizing that my decision had no impact, I chose to kill Emmeryn, but when I realized that Emmeryn was going to sacrifice herself anyway, despite Chrom and Lissa’s wishes, it did hit close to my heart that she was willing to sacrifice her own life for the sake of us. I remember getting teary-eyed when Chrom said she made the decision so he didn’t have to.
I don’t think they gave enough screen time and development in general enough for Emmeryn. I didn’t care much for it or feel anything, I thought it was tragic...duh...but I couldn’t sympathise with someone I hardly got to know.
What I thought of is how in the first two player choices, it's not that your choices don't change anything, but there is always a character that interrupts the choice from making a big change. No matter what you choose at chapter 9, Emmeryn will commit suicide. No matter if you accept Lucina's Judgement or not, Chrom will intervene. Your choices don't necessarily get "ignored", they get interrupted.
Imagine Emmeryn standing on that platform, watching as Chrom and his friends fight to save her life, only to find out that she is the only thing that stands between them and success. To see her brother so frustrated and confused, and his tactitian struggling to make a good decision. A decision that no kind person should be forced to make. Whether you choose to sacrifice her or not, the weight of the decision lingers, and the guilt will never end. So Emmeryn made the decision to kill herself. She stopped you from making a decision that you would regret, no matter what you chose. She INTERRUPTED your choice.
Now imagine Chrom, following Lucina to the woods, only to see her pointing her blade at you. No matter what you choose, Chrom will want to intervene. If you say yes, Chrom realizes that his best friend is actually willing to die for him. If you say no, Chrom would be watching his daughter fight his best friend to the death. He INTERRUPTED the grief that your choice would have left.
In the final battle with Grima, YOU are the one doing the interruption. Chrom's plan is to put Grima to sleep. You have to option to let him do it or to INTERRUPT him to finish the job yourself. Just like Emmeryn and Chrom, you are preventing a decision that will cause future grief. You are the one putting the decision in your hands and act according to it. You are the one who is finally making a decision that matters.
At least, that's how I see it.
Thank you! Its what I thought too. They do change dialogue but Emm would still sacrifice herself anyway. Unless the Devs would put a gameover choice when using an option or a character going permadeath.
Exactly, the uploader sounds frustrated that his choices "did not make a difference" but it creates a sense of careful deciding and then understanding that it's not always your decisions that make an outcome. Yes, it would be very dissatisfying if there were many choices like this, but there isn't, so I wasn't concerned and thoroughly enjoyed the story.
@@sublime_tv to me it just makes me unlikely to buy another game from that company, if i had a choice iwould have sided with grima out of spite
@@fakebunny1272 wow man, you'd betray your own friends?
@@xanethedarkwerehog friends is a title granted you cant self entitle as my friend i have to allow you to become one and i did no such thing to any of then also i aways liked grima
Sacrifice Emmeryn?
Yes/Yes
Thanks Awakening!
hi mangs
Was I wrong then?
Accept Lucina's judgment?
No/No
Accept Lucina's judgment?
No/No, but Chrom says it instead
Mangs this is insane!!!
I actually wish that other characters held you to account for decisions at a later time even if ultimately it doesn't let you go through with them. Imagine if Lissa later blamed you for Emmeryn's death if you chose to rationalize a plan that involved letting her die, but grew closer to the avatar if they attempted to give up the Emblem. Alternatively, imagine if Flavia and Basilio attempted to chew you out later for the recklessness of being willing to give up the Emblem for a single life, even that of a ruler. Conversations like that could really change the impact of the whole choice system, even if it what you had actually chose was never actually able to happen.
Imagine Lucina later approaching the player character asking for forgiveness if you had chosen to be willing to die, but being less trusting of you for the rest of the game if you chose otherwise, imagine your character's spouse and child, should they have them by that point, resenting you for being willing to leave them on such pretenses if you agreed to let yourself be killed. There was a lot that could be done to make the choices meaningful even without actually having other characters go through with the actions directly implied.
I feel like the issue with the Emmeryn choice is just that it doesn’t give you any preceding choices that *do* matter - if it had set things up so that you did feel like you had agency, that choice would have just hammered home the feeling of helplessness. The problem is that the game only really uses the choice mechanic at the points where it wants to subvert it - it tries to have its cake and eat it too, to get that subversion without putting in the work to establish what its subverting and give the moment meaning. Like, honestly whenever I made a choice in awakening I made it under the assumption that it *wouldn’t* matter beyond one or two lines of dialogue before it went back to the plot - if the game had gone out of its way to dispel that impression before yanking agency away from me again, I feel like it would be a much more powerful moment.
(Also, I have to admit I was surprised this was about the dialogue choices - from the title, I thought it was more likely to be about the avatar and how trying to give the player choices to customize them forced a largely blank character and overstretched workloads for support conversations.)
The choice shouldve increase some stats to chrom lol.
+2 STR not sacrifice emmeryn
+2 SPD sacrifice emmeryn and flee
To make it relevant for the player.
Or they shouldve added a gaiden chapter if chrom decides to fight back ( but still fails in the end ) but gives you some bonus items
FEA is good but the execution lacks
Fire Emblem Awakening || The Price of Player Choice... *or lack thereof*
I love the choices thematically. The first two fall into the game’s theme of not being in control of their life. The Amnesia, Grima’s interference, and possession are proof enough. It’s the final choice that brings it home. That is when Robin takes back his/her life and the world will deal with what s/he deals, not the other way around. That said this was a well put together video that I felt obligated to comment on.
I always liked this aspect.
-so sue me-
I thought it was to emphasize how hard it is to change fate, not only for empathy with Chrom, but more specifically, empathy with Lucina.
If I remember the game correctly, I think "Marth" drops little hints now and then of how helpless she felt against the course of fate, because in the end though she thought she was changing history, she was simply prolonging the inevitable.
Looking back on it now, and having read _Beowulf_ , I notice that if you read the text carefully in _Beowulf_ the author - I read a version by Burton Raffel - there are hints that "Fate saves those who save themselves", but also when the Will of God is in tune with the Courage of a hero fate is overturned. (I know some/many/none of you may not be Christian, but -Beo- bear with me here. It does not have to do with Christ I promise.)
In Awakening, It takes the Will of Naga in cooperation with the Courage of the heroes to change Fate.
Until the group reaches Tiki, or Refines the Falchion, if I remember correctly, not much changes despite the efforts of the protagonists. The catalysts of changing destiny were the Dragons, The Blade of Light, & the Components of The Fire Emblem in the hands of the heroes.
Omg I went on a tangential rant. I forget what I'm talking about. So sry.
The mere concept of a God (monotheism) is not a specifically Christian one. Nor, however, are non-Christians generally shallow enough to deny traditionally Christian role of a god in Western art, particularly literature. I highly doubt you added such a disclaimer when writing the paper I assume you completed on Beowulf in every mention of such a being.
The way i saw Awakening's "player choice" was a way to also sediment Awakening's theme of "preordained fate" into the gameplay itself. Many times we hear from several characters how fate cannot be averted and no matter how much we toil and fight, fate is already written and there's nothing we can do to change its eventual course. Maybe it wasn't made in the best way it could've but it helps in putting you in Chrom's and Robin's shoes while they felt dragged along by the whims of something greater than both, unable to do anything
I like it a lot. For the first two choices, the option was never yours to make. Emm takes the guilt off of both the player and Chrom for failing to save her, because she was willing to sacrifice herself either way. For the second choice, you had the choice to reject Lucina’s judgement, which would lead to a confrontation that Chrom would interrupt, or to accept it, no matter what her choice actually turned out to be. As it stands, she chooses to not kill you, meaning that the choice was never yours to make again.The third choice is the only one that IS yours (as the avatar) to make in the game: whether you should land the final blow or step back and let Chrom do it. This is the only one where it is completely up to you in the story and in the game itself, and it also just happens to be the only one that has an actual effect on the story (although it is often overlooked because the consequence is literally the LAST thing that you see in the game).
If the intent was to make the player feel powerless in their decision, that's perfectly fine.
But its not effective because these are the only scenes where you're _given_ such a choice, and both are ultimately pointless. These scenes would have a lot more weight and impact if they were just two out of a dozen or so similar choices that actually did have an impact.
It reminds me how Knights of the Old Republic 2 had a similar scene where your choice is ultimately pointless, but that game executed that concept in a much more meaningful way; partially because there are dozens of dialogue moments where your choices _do_ matter, so that scene in particular packs more of a punch.
I remember back in radiant dawn? That there this one point where the player could make a choice very similar to Awakening where just like Awakening it made no difference whatsoever. Except unlike Awakening there was a third opinion unlocked after beating the game for the first time on any 2nd play though and beyond. I believe this was intended but they never had time to go and write alternative routes. And by the time then realize they couldn’t it probably very into development and didn’t want to waste what time they had considering this was the last game for they knew. But it’s stretching it a bit sense based off the finished game that we got it seems clear they spend more time on the story given the unbalance gameplay. Even then I argue they didn’t Really have focused on Really much on one thing or aspect. Hence why I think many things Awakening did were gimmicky and not properly balanced or could of been fleshed out more. Like for example: Grima’s backstory that we received in Echoes that would of made Grima much more interesting than your Average Fe dragon.
I remember when I first played Awakening thinking how interesting it would be to pick the other choice but sadly found out it didn’t matter (not including the ending) but still love the game
I mean, technically the ending choice doesn't really matter either, since that choice never really gets saved. When you start up the game again, you go back to the world map before the final battle, as if you never made any choice to begin with. You just get some different dialogue before that universe gets erased.
you also get a new scene. Although it's basically just the opening but the mark of Grima isn't there
I genuinely love the analysis you made. Yes, I still think that the choice mechanic didn't really make it in, especially if you replay the game several times.However, from my standpoint, because I love Awakening so much and love the characters, I actually do have a deeper look into the choices that are made. With Emmeryn, I see Robin needing to decide if he is to tell Chrom to let Emmeryn, his beloved older sister, one whom Chrom admits in a Drama CD is like a mother to him, to die, or to also sacrifice the lives of so many people by giving Gangrel the Fire Emblem.
Emmeryn choosing to die is in fact something I believe many other characters would do if they were as selfless in other series or anime. They would rather die than be made as part of a choice.
And then the part with Lucina, and how depending on the relationship with Robin, the dialogue alters dramatically. If Robin is Lucina's mother, Lucina has to realize that she has to kill her mother to save her father, losing one parent to save the other. And if Robin is Lucina's husband, then Lucina comes back with the intention of killing her father's murderer and Grima, only to fall in love with the man that ends up being both. It's like the ultimate irony for her that hurts. And Robin being forced to choose, allowing Lucina to kill them or refusing it, but Chrom steps in. Though it feels like a cop out, it really isn't. Think about it, Chrom was forced to watch his sister die so that he didn't have to choose. He wouldn't ever allow another choice lead to the death of someone else, and that's why he stopped it. It wasn't just because he believes in Robin to the end, but rather because he didn't want Robin to end up like Emmeryn did. He couldn't bear to lose someone else he cared for.
I feel like this scene functioned exactly as (possibly) intended for me. When Chrom mentioned mentioned Emmeryn choosing for him, I immediately thought back to the previous scene.
I see your point and I respect it, but I kinda disagree on the fundamentals. Awakening's main theme is that the future is not written and that (as cheesy as it is) friendship can overcome anything, yet, at every single turn, they shoehorn those fake choices which pretty much states that yes, the future IS written and nothing you can do changes it.
I thought about this as well. However, I think the idea with these choices was to show just how hard it is to overcome time and the future, not that it is impossible. The games shows Lucina failing multiple times, and these choices demonstrate to the player that they too, cannot change the future easily. Once they do manage to overcome it later in the plot, that's when player choices actual do something (Grima decision). However, even I can acknowledge this is somewhat of a stretch. The execution was shoddy at best, and it definitely does feel shoehorned in at times.
Pavise Productions oh so it only works when the writers want to... thats bs, i respect your opinion but thats fucking BS
DavidKyokushin imagine if Fates had this as it‘s big decision :p Corrin:„I side with Nohr!“ Ryoma:“eh...no. The script says you can‘t, so screw you, you‘re going with us.“ corrin:“K.“
It sounds like the outcomes of these (non-)choices are predetermined by the choices of others. Not the player character, but they're still characters. Should their choices have no impact on the world?
wackpendejo3000 That's not what Pavise said. What he said was that up until the end of the game NO ONE is able to change the future. Not the characters and not the player. Chrom keeps claiming that their bonds will give them the strength to change things, but every time they try, the event they were avoiding still ends up happening. The game builds an enormous sense of hopelessness leading up to the confrontation with Validar (seen in the Premonition), and the player is meant to doubt Chrom's words that the future can be changed. Not even you the player can seems to alter their fates. And it is at that point that that the heroes are finally able to work together to shatter their destinies, save Chrom, and thwart Validar's plan in one go. Chrom's ideals are vindicated, and after that the player too can alter the future with their final decision regarding Grima.
I somewhat doubt that the developers thought that deeply about it, since the story overall is pretty slapdash, but I really admired the gameplay/story synergy when I played it, intentional or not.
To me in terms of a story telling standpoint these "decisions" actually make sense. One of the biggest plot points in awakening is about how the future can be changed. Grima obviously goes against this being the main antagonist and his whole point of view is that the future is set in stone. Instead of constantly making progress in changing the events of the past/future, the game (specifically with emmeryn's death) supports the antagonists view, which is that nothing can be changed. emmeryn temporarily survived being assassinated back in chapter six at the castle (lucina actually says that emmeryn died there in the bad future, if I remember correctly), but she was fated to die. Not even a decision on the players behalf could change that. In my eyes this idea of failing to make change (on both the protagonists and players fronts) adds to the helpless feel of the game's end of the world scenario, with the characters failing to save the world in the past and failing to save it again upon being given a second chance via lucina. this helplessness is present until the game's climax, where robin's decision to either slay grima or let chrom do it has actual ramifications. This along with the fact that grima fails to end the world ends the game nicely with the protagonists' ideals prevailing.
TL;DR The way I see it the decision to make the players input pointless was a way for the game to make not only the characters feel helpless, but the player themselves feel helpless in regards to making an impact on the plot, further adding to its imact. Im not saying it was implemented perfectly, as you have to either play the game twice or search it up to realize that your decision had no weight to it. And It would of been nice if you got more than like one different line of text for choosing an alternative option. I apologize If I got any details about the game wrong, it's been a while since I last played it.
Adding to that, it makes Chapter 23's events all the more powerful - where Chrom and Robin fake the former being killed by the latter, Basilio turns up alive, and Robin reveals they secretly planned to circumvent Validar's plans for the Fire Emblem by having Basilio fake his death so he can replace the five gemstones with forgeries; cue Validar getting a well-deserved beatdown, his plans and ego in tatters. No matter the frustrations the game would sometimes give in execution, I still LOVE that moment for the epic factor of it all!
I mean, overall the idea of changing fate/free will vs destiny is a pretty big theme of Awakening. One of Lucina's defining character motivations is to stop events from happening in order to keep her future from happening. Personally I think that one of Lucina's most important moments in the story (Her attempt to kill Robin) is one of the smartest choices for which story beat to tie into the game's overall theme.
Hope you all enjoyed this look into one of Awakening's more quirky design choices. It was certainly an interesting video to write as I had never looked deeply into them.
All music and footage used is credited in the description.
For the comment question:
How much would you like to see player choice factor into a potential new Fire Emblem game?
As usual thank you all for your support, appreciate ya!
Pavise Productions I feel like if there was a Player Choice feature that actually affected the game, it would be more fun, but it would probably be harder to program and work around. In my opinion, I like the choices that affect the game, like choosing between Sonya or Dean in Echoes or just choosing Eirika or Ephraims Route, but I'm also fine with there being no choices
Not that those choices REALLY affect all that much - I mean, the plot is still relatively unchanged, barring a certain character being around or not; barring some dialogue and scene alterations, the only thing choosing Ephraim/Eirika is that you get to see the other's side of the story, but the OVERALL plot is mostly unchanged... That was really why "Fates" was made, because the guys working on it wanted to have a choice which DRASTICALLY affects the story in a more than just cosmetic way (they explicitly drew a comparison to the first game, and how choosing Samson or Arran didn't really affect anything); it was a flawed execution mind you, but I do appreciate their hearts WERE in the right place with trying it out...
I liked the fact it gave you choices. It didn't have a different outcome and that was sad but it made you feel important and really put you in the avatar's place. And for the record these choices made me cry more than once. And the feeling of helplessness the choices gave you... I have to admit made me feel like I was on the losing side. But for most scenarios you're team appears to be on the losing side and you're just happier when you win.
I'm okay with the execution of both choices. With Emmeryn's death, it's not like Chrom ignored me. Emmeryn did. I felt it was quite obvious what they were trying to achieve. With Lucina's judgement, the choice can lead to differing and heartbreaking dialogue, especially if Robin is Chrom's wife, which I enjoyed. I knew Robin would not really die lol
As always, I need to bring up the experts on the subject-Extra Credits. Specifically, their videos "Choice and Conflict - What Does Choice Mean in Games?" and "The Illusion of Choice - How Games Balance Freedom and Scope". They cover how choices can be meaningful to the player even if they don't impact the broader narrative, arguing that the important part of the choice is less the effects of that choice and more that the player thinks about it. Links to said videos:
ua-cam.com/video/lg8fVtKyYxY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/45PdtGDGhac/v-deo.html
You know what, let's give an example from a game I've actually played. Remember in Telltale's The Walking Dead, when the player needs to divide up food among the characters? Not a single plot point changes, but the player is still making choices. Who is the most important? Do you give the food to growing kids, or to the adults who do the work, or what? Do you spread the food around, or keep it for yourself and those closest to you? Giving the player opportunities to make such choices, forcing them into the shoes of the characters, can improve engagement all on its own. (Arguably, removing the gamey aspects of the decisions helps the player view it as less of a mechanical decision and more of an ethical choice.)
It's not the right choice for every game, but it's the right choice for some games, and Nintendo evidently wanted to make one of those.
The problem i fell about this example is that your choice didn‘t get denied in that Walking Dead scene. I feel that Awakening did something like, let‘s say, you gave people the Food just like you think it should be given out as an example, you give the Kids and someone else the food. After you give the Food, other people take the Food away from the people you have chosen, making the scene where you think about who needs the food the most, a waste of time. How it is now, the outcome of your decision isn‘t important, but atleast you had a decision that the game didn’t replace in a minute with the outcome that the Devs thought were right. And i know the IS CAN do it, with the final decision. It doesn‘t change anything really, the only difference between the decisions is if Grima can come back or not, but that doesn‘t matter until a new Fire emblem game. But atleast the Game didn‘t have me decide if i want Chrom or Robin to finish Grima, just to have Robin do it anyway.
I disagree with your analysis. In TWD, your decision is invalidated by having enough food to feed everyone, which invalidates the decision of who deserves food as much as not having _any_ food to give. In both cases, the decision is rendered irrelevant; your choice to prioritize feeding certain people ultimately doesn't matter, because such priorities are no longer applicable.
Similarly, your decision to sacrifice Emmeryn is not applicable. You can't choose whether or not to sacrifice her, because she's going off and handling the problem herself. Yet the moral dilemma was still there. You still had to decide if you thought not killing Emmeryn was worth the danger, or if sacrifices had to be made.
The big difference is the _presentation_ of the two choices. TWD puts you in a scene, where you can talk with people before choosing to give them food or not. This gave you time to consider the decision while playing, time for things to sink in, and maybe some context to help make your decision. This makes it seem less like a place for the story to branch, less like a glorified menu, and more like an experience you're meant to experience. FE:A used...a text box.
Maybe this wouldn't have been quite so bad if you could walk around camp, talk with various characters about the situation, and go to where Emmeryn should be when you've made a decision...only to see her at the edge of a cliff. Maybe that would have made it seem less like a fake branching path and more like an actual scene.
Timothy McLean i agree completely.
@@timothymclean Your improvement misses the entire context of the scene. This is not a casual decision with time to talk and think about it. This is an ultimatum made by the antagonist with only a few seconds to come to your decision (in story, not gameplay).
I pretty much agree with u they were up to something on paper but it just doesn't work on execution all that well I just hope that moving forward they actually start making FE choices mater it will make the games feel a lot more personal and full of depth
I actually liked the "choices" in awakening because I think this illusion of choice or "ignoring the player" as you put it fits in very well with the games story, more specifically the aspects of the story that center around whether or not it is possible to change ones fate. I remember there being several instances where characters make remarks about the unimportance of choices because fate, being predetermined, is not changeable and the not-choice of sacrificing Emeryn makes the player really feel that not primarily through empathy one may or may not have for Chrom but by breaking the players expectation of being able to make a meaningful choice within the game. I think the fact that people get upset about being ignored proves that the writers of the story did a good job with this and the last choice of the game, sacrificing ones character or letting Chrom defeat Grima, is the only choice that actually changes the story and this also makes sense because at this point, after everything they went through, Chrom and the rest actually have found the resolve, or defiance if you will, necessary to actually change fate and thus make a meaningful decision that makes a change. This moment gets even stronger because in this moment, as a player, we also get back our "power" to actively influence whatis happening in the game through our own actions and, more importantly in this case, choices.
The choice to accept Lucinas judgement is similar to the choice with Emeryn in one critical way: the outcome does not solely rely on Lucina and Robin but also on Chrome, who interferes with it and who isn't the players character so isn't a character over whose actions the player has any power (outside of the combat scenarios obviously ). The only thing I found confusing about the choices is that the first time the player gets to make a decision for Chrom while the other two choices are made from Robins perspective. Since Robin is the players character I feel it would have made more sense to only let the player make choices in his place. Then again, Robin chosing whether to sacrifice Emeryn also would have been weird and I think that having the choice be "Chroms" to make made the following moments more impactful.
What I am trying to say is that giving the player an illusion of choice can be used as a way to use the interactive nature of games as a storytelling device in pretty much the same way as giving the player actual choices if, like in the story of awakening, the players choices not having a huge effect fits in with the story that is being told.
It all makes you feel that much better when you hear those 9 magic words...
"Don't you put any stock in this destiny hogwash"
I can respected a failed attempt, which is why that just knowing why that choice exists makes me more tolerant of it. However, the fact that NONE of the choices matter is what really hurts. If there was some side effects to the other choices even minor ones, that would have really made the Emmeryn lack of choice really hit home.
I find with these player choice things, is that there's a certain level of arrogance and entitlement that goes with them. That because you're given a choice that you must have an impact on it, that the world bows to your decisions and wishes, when in reality that's not quite the case.
I've seen it elsewhere, such as an adventure game where certain areas are locked off due to an in universe reason, but the player whines because they want to go there, and they want to go there now. In essence, players seem to have a subconscious mindset that they should be able to do as they wish, regardless of what the world of the game itself says. A choice not having an effect is just as plausible as anything else. It shows that the other characters aren't just binary flags for you to activate, but characters with agency of their own, whose desires may contradict your own and come out on top.
That isn't to say this was done perfectly. Were there other times where choices did matter, or subtle changes such as dialogue were made, then there'd still be the feeling of helplessness and frustration without the choice feeling pointless. It fits well with the themes of fate, that Fate favours the original destination, it just wasn't fully handled. It's a strange topic, especially in a series where players forever criticise how the world revolves around the avatar, then complain when it doesn't, but I know it's not as black and white as that. A good idea, iffy execution.
This game isn't some genre-pushing meta-analysis of games as a medium and the idea of player agency like The Stanley Parable, Undertale or a Yoko Taro game, it's just more of the tired old 1980s JRPG "illusion of choice" moments falling flat because they fail to give the player any feeling of agency. Players wouldn't feel, as you mischaracterize it, "entitled" if they weren't presented with these false choices to begin with. If you're told to make a choice, and you're not so acclimated to JRPGs that you instinctively know the choice is false and will have no consequences, of course you would feel "cheated."
The game and its designers are responsible for the experience the players of the game have. It's not an issue of "arrogant" and "entitled" players throwing an unreasonable fit when they have been deliberately misled by the game designers with no apparent reason beyond ineptitude.
A nifty selection of Extra Credits videos which should make the problem here pretty clear from an objective game design standpoint:
ua-cam.com/video/45PdtGDGhac/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6Q7ECX5FaX0/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/j0RFoGvkQfs/v-deo.html
Perhaps the words I used were a bit strong for this context. I still stand by saying people seem to feel that choice automatically means they have an impact on the world, but perhaps this is the wrong place to discuss it. You are right in saying this isn't a genre pusher or anything like that.
I did also say though, that the idea wasn't handled well, and other choices or changes would have led to the theorised effect. Player choice is a tricky thing, and it wasn't properly done here.
Thanks for the videos. I'll have to give em a watch when I have some time. Extra credits always have some interesting ideas.
any player is entitled to agency otherwise go make a movie you bastard if you give the player the ability to move but he get teleported back you will be called out on your bullshit same goes for choices if you put a choice in fornt of me it better have actual impact otherwise get this shit out of my face
I think the biggest reason I like the non-choice choices in Awakening is because while generic, Awakening's themes are meant to convince the player that the connections they make are more powerful than what someone can do on their own. The choices themselves are not even Robin's choice to make, it's just about how the player would want to fit into that situation. If Robin weren't a slot in for the player these choices would not exist because the character is already written to act a certain way, but because Robin exists to give immersion to newcommers, it makes sense that the game would make you actually think about choices by giving the player a question they MUST answer to continue no matter what the answer is.
I feel like the backlash to these non-choice choices is what lead to Fates' plot where the selling point is to experience stories that leave out chunks of detail in any given version so that "yeah your choices matter, but they aren't satisfying"
I really like The Emmeryn's death moment, it is supposed to bem frustrating but is real, sometimes choices aren't our, the game does this in a interesting way cause you think you can choose It gives you hope and then, she did it, by herself, making It more painful it's not just empathizing with Chrom it's a form to give hope just to take it away, causing a bigger impact
After that stream watching these serious videos is weird to me
Same
Tsubasa Get yourself a man that can do both
I don’t think the Lucinda argument is nearly as strong but once you pointed out the Emmeryn one I was just like woah. Honestly that’s super cool now that I understand it. It doesn’t matter what you Robin thinks. It’s not your choice what Emmeryn wants to do for her family and her kingdom. I like that a lot now.
I respect the effort you put into this, and your willingness to consider all options, especially since constructive criticism holds companies to a higher standard, so that we get better content. However, I have my own simple take on it, having thought a great deal about this issue myself:
I strongly believe the developers put those "choices" in simply to give us a sense of helplessness. The game is about trying to change fate, so the game gives us choices that seem fruitless in order to make us engage with the characters, who feel that they are struggling in the dark against some unyielding, evil destiny.
One of the reasons I like Lucina is the skill of her voice actress in conveying the character's feelings. It's why my favourite line in the game is that one critical quote she has:
"The future is _not_ written!"
You can hear, in this short line, an amalgamation of hope, desperation, despair, and determination. Thus, it embodies everything the developers want us to feel when we play the game. You are meant to feel as though the evil you are facing in invincible and implacable, combated by a sense of strength, purpose, and unity, so that when at long last you defeat Grima, you are rewarded with the sensation that you have accomplished the impossible in a feat of virtue and strength, to the benefit of millions.
These apparently meaningless player choices which, I'm now learning, frustrate so many people, seem to me to be a way of connecting the player to the story more intimately. I know it worked on me, at least. I've beaten the game several times now, and I still take a long, emotional moment to make those decisions, even when I know the outcome. I don't resent it.
Something to note is that these choices help show that despite Robin (and by extension you, the player) being a great tactician, there are things that are completely out of your hands. Even after all you've done, you're essentially powerless until the Grima decision, where you hold the fate of the world in your hands. This helps with the atmosphere of the final scene, leaving you with a bit of a feeling of triumph, finally overcoming fate
I always loved awakenings plot, like i think it is one of the best plots ever... I Always thought the player choice was there to give you a chance to customize your protagonist, though I personally believe your explanation now.
There's also the plot point of you being mind being controlled by Grima and Validar. The only true time a chose of yours would truly affect the plot is after you broke free of the puppeteers pulling your strings. Do not forget there is a sidemission where you are asked to make a choice, and it effects the way the mission is played.
I just found your videos, and they are amazing, keep up the great work dude!
Another video from Reinhardt himself god bless
Tbh I think it would be interesting if the choices led you to different Gaiden chapters for instance instead of looking at your nomad/pesgasus knight level, Marcus asks Roy whether he wants to go to illia or sacae in fe6 and you get to choose between the two, they could even tell you what you'll end up fighting (Pegasus knights and snow for illia for instance) .
I honestly think that the Lucina one could’ve been left out. Emm one I feel like is a good design. Really illustrates that sometimes there is nothing you can do. You are given a meaningless choice, that at first seems like a life and death options. It’s not as much of an illusion as a lack of choice. You can try to chose the right outcome but in the end you really are powerless in that decision, and sometimes you just are powerless.
imo the choice's could of had a bigger impact, even if it boiled down to just different dialogues later. like sacrificing Emmeryn could have meant Lucina was more intent on killing you to save the future. whereas refusing to would have made her hope for another way.
A Fire Emblem with options and dialogue choices throughout the game would make it perfect.
There was this moment in Hector Mode of Blazing Sword that I thought was similar to your explanation. In Hector Mode, Oswin obeys Lord Uther, Hector's brother, to keep Hector from knowing Uther died. It was because the Ostian Lord knew that Hector would be rushing back home no matter what if he knew his brother was ill. At the same time, to choose between helping his brother or his friend Eliwood would tear Hector apart, thus why the news was kept secret from him. I don't know if this had influenced Awakening's story or not, but I thought it was cool and wanted to point out the similarities.
I think of this in something else. I think this ties back into the idea's of fate that Awakening's main theming is tied to. The player is told by Validar, Grima and Aversa that the future is more or less set and stone, the whole point of Awakening is that you are trying to rebel against fate, you're biggest objective in the game is to prevent Lucina's timeline from going to hell.
The first time you are presented with a choice, you are powerless against fate, Emmeryn dies and you aren't sure if you can change fate, Lucina even makes a comment about the despair she feels and how she doubts if the future can be changed if Emmeryn still wound up dead.
The second time you are presented a choice, it is right after you lose the Fire Emblem and perhaps the only thing giving you the chance to fight back against the fate that ensues if you don't get it back. Lucina is effectively trying to take fate into her own hands here, and you know from the prologue that if she did kill Robin, it's possible that she would have prevented that fate since Chrom is no longer injured after the fight with Validar and Robin theoretically can't become Grima as you learn later, however once again it is fated that Robin and Chrom be there and that Robin injures Chrom, once again the player is questioning whether fate can be changed. This is why it's an actual choice for the player to sacrifice themselves here, we know that Robin is going to injure Chrom and according to Lucina on the ship, it was that betrayal that killed Chrom that led to the bad future.
It's finally at the end of the game, when Grima is defeated, that fate has been truly changed by preventing his reign, where the player is given the choice to choose their own fate: does Robin kill Grima or does Chrom put him to sleep. The player effectively carves their own path to their own future with the final choice.
I was just mad that they made it sound like choices were so important in all the ads, it was a huge selling point for me, and it was more or less a lie. Still love Awakening, but that still left me peeved.
Next title should be *Telltale Games: Fire Emblem*
I haven’t played awakening, but from what I know (literally just from this video) it seems like it was trying to go for a powerless feel but it was barely acknowledged leaving the player frustrated at the game instead of powerless because of the story.
If it placed more emphasis on how the characters also felt powerless because of it, perhaps it would have been different, but I don’t think the game placed enough emphasis on how you didn’t get to choose. (I think the first chapter of Deltarune does this feeling well. Giving the player choice and then takin it away from them. In that game, it actually has impact, and is acknowledged multiple times, directly and indirectly.)
Honestly the first time I got to this part in the story, Emm's death broke me. It made me feel powerless to halt the situation, yea but I think thats truly what brought poignancy to this scene. It gives the player agency by the stripping away of power to stop a bad situation. This isnt like in other games/chapters where you have to save helpless NPCs on a hostile battlefield. In this moment Emm's character was truly alive to me and she made her choice to sacrifice herself for the good of her country regardless of the player's decision. It made her personality as a kind, just, and self-sacrificing leader shine through in stark contrast to the antagonist of the chapter, but it also made Chrom and Lissa's grief that much more real. They werent just losing their leader, they were losing their big sister, their rock that helped them through all the rough patches in their lives. She was the person that was their for them no matter what. Losing a person like that is life shattering and the fact that Awakening was able to portray this exact type of situation so perfectly without making it over the top or devaluing Emm's sacrifice says a lot about the minds that went to working building the game.
I actually always thought it was done on purpose, when I was playing, I thought it was great the way that the choices are meant to make us feel immersed, to make us feel what is't like to not have your choice matter, to be helpless in the face of Fate, much like how the characters in the game felt and especially since defying fate was the theme of the whole story. Since I didn't actually see many other player comments on this particular subject until this video, I kinda assumed that it was unsubtle enough for most people to get it immediately, but that might be because I've seen this a few times in other games and I always thought it was a fantastic idea and it was nice to see it used in a bigger game
I think the problem in the choices is not that the game ignores your decision, but that, as you said, you couldn't know that choosing one option over the other wouldn't change a thing, so you feel cheated. This could have been easily fixed with the choice affecting how the outcome happens, if not the end result.
Yet we only get a token 2/3 lines about the choice made and the story goes right back to it. It's not frustrating, it's manipulative, because if the game didn't care about my choice, why should I? Lucina's judgment has the same issues. Your choice does not matter because Chrom stops her either way. It's only interesting if Robin is Lucina's Husband/Mother, because the choice feels more nuanced, but the this outcome depends on what character you S-support with, not in whether or not you accept Lucina's judgment. The last choice to strike down Grima does give a different enough ending that I can pass it, but the first 2 are simply not a good way to give the illusion of choice, since not only they don't change the outcome, they don't even change the way they reach the same outcome.
I thought the first two choices were bang on what they needed to be.
In fire emblem games, apart from a few key characters, your choices determine which of your characters live, and which die. Your mistakes kill your team.
These choices put you completely in the characters shoes, because it’s the only time you’re being forced to make a decision not based upon stats. Not only that, but you are helpless after you make the decisions. Do you hold emmeryns life in your hands? No. Do you have control over your own life when talking to Lucina? No. So why should your choice make a difference to who loves ornaments dies in those situations?
Something I like in Three Houses in regards to choice is one we see fairly early on, when we've been sent to retrieve The Lance of Ruin. After the completing the mission, we have a choice between returning the lance to the house the weapon was given to, or to refuse. Should we refuse, and happen to have Sylvain in our party, he will come in and claim the lance for himself saying he's been given permission from his father.
Yeah, that illusion of choice is how I felt it. My entire first playthrough of Awakening was magical. Having my own son, Owain, love making references to the series felt like the game knew that I had been playing this series for years. I thought that it read my in-game multiplayer profile that said I was from Frelia plus my affinity for the in-game weapons owned by past characters,and it used that information to craft me a fitting off-spring.
And all the supports with the father and child felt natural and personal too. I was completely blown away by how much attention to detail was in the game. I couldnt wait to try out different choices to see how much the game would change, so I started a new file immediately after finishing.
But this ruined everything. I realized that male Robin supports are the same as female Robin supports; Lissa wasnt falling for me, she was simply being my friend until i clicked the S Rank support button that reworked the story to make sense as a romance. Owain wasnt my son, he was Lissa's. My child is the completely generic and boring Morgan. And when I realized all the father-child supports were the same, that's when I decided that Awakening had tricked me.
That first playthrough was blissful ignorance, but the second playthrough made me realize all of Awakening's shortcuts. Put simply, the illusion of choice ruined the game for me.
I think that part of what they might've (though I can't support this) been going for is trying to create a recurring theme for the players: is it worth sacrificing one for the greater good? All three choices kinda hit that theme in some way: Emmeryn's Sacrifice is weighing her life vs the future lives that the Fire Emblem would play a role in saving, Lucina's Judgment asks if you're willing to sacrifice yourself to save Chrom, and finally the Endgame asks you to weigh your life against those who would have to fight Grima in the future. The stakes get more personal, going from Emmeryn's life to your own, but you're always asked if you think the one life is worth the future risk.
It's something that I think works only once, the first time through Awakening without any prior knowledge. Not knowing that your choice ultimately doesn't influence the game, you might make these decisions with much greater thought, even being willing to make the sacrifice "for the greater good." And Chrom's frustration in the first case could fit the player's as well, because no matter what, you'd feel powerless because you feel like your efforts are all for naught.
I think the big issue, though, is that there are actually no true consequences for your decision. Sacrifice Emmeryn or no, the only change is a small bit of dialogue before Emmeryn does herself in. Lucina's Judgment just has Chrom break it up, with minor dialogue changes depending on your choice/relationship.. The ending is the only one with consequences, but none of you die anyway so there's no true reason to not sacrifice yourself to do Grima in. If they'd made the choices a bit more consequential - choosing to sacrifice Emmeryn, for instance, temporarily removes support bonuses with Chrom because he's hurt by your decision, or choosing to reject Lucina's Judgment results in a quick fight that, while broken up by Chrom, results in Lucina getting an injury and she can't fight the next battle - I think we would've been fine with the lack of overall influence the decisions had on the story.
I think it foreshadows the main choice at the end that acutaully somewhat affects the story
I can definitely attest in some respect to the power of a first playthrough. The ending choice had full meaning to me, because I didn't expect the Avatar would be saved from death by the power of friendship.
This is what I thought all along and I was probably one of few who remembered chrom's line
Amen, brother.
I actually do remember that line from Chrom about being powerless - like you said, it really does echo the sentiment that you feel when you find out you have no choice despite the presentation. That said... Not sure if I like the choiceless choices, either. I think it more felt cheap because it has been done before commonly in games in much more mundane situations ("Do you want a Pokémon? No? Are you sure? No? Are you sure? No? Are you sure? Yes? Great!"); if this were the first time someone has created a "But Thou Must" situation, it'd be a lot more emotionally effective.
I like how they do this because the only choice that matters in the one the main character makes. Kind of like it’s not up to you about what others do.
Personally I think I found a decent way to fix these 2 player choice options.
Sacrifice Emmeryn:
Yes: you get the exalt falchion later and have chrom become more powerful with the exalt getting more mt.
No: you lose the fire emblem, which means that chrom cant get the exalt falchion, but you can recruit Emmeryn.
Lucinas judgement:
Yes: Lucina strikes robin but doesnt kill him. They are discovered and robin is taken to the healers tent. He cant play the next chapter or 2.
No: Lucina yells to robin about if he even cares about his friends. She runs away. She cant be used for the next chapter or 2
It is what it is. At the end of the day it achieved in evoking a response from the player. Sure it didn't have an impact of branching or changing the narrative. but, You can make a case of it fitting the theme of Awakening & Robin and it's foretold destiny, how despite your best efforts not everything can be salvaged or changed.
To me the meaning of this is - at the beginning the player is powerless; everything is written. But at the endgame, the designers gave players a chance to decide the fate and future as in two possible endings.
So, as is one of the themes of this game, we are able to write our own fates.
Also a fun thing to think about: a later expansion of making choices made FE Fates into three separate game ;D
And then there's me coming from the pokemon games where this kind of thing is done literally every choice you get.
The choices you make in Awakening amount to what flavor of text you get.
I think it makes sense that the game ignored our choice. We can only control what our character does, not the other characters. Just because you choose not to give up on Emmeryn or choose to accept lucinas punishment doesn’t mean it will stop them. Let’s say you accept Lucina’s judgement, she could not stab you, or still stab you. Let’s say you don’t accept her judgement, she still has those options. You cannot control those characters. Only your own. That’s why I understand it. What you want isn’t always what you get. You are responsible for yourself. Your actions affect others and their actions affect you.
I like the idea or so used to our decisions having more weight in president over the rest of the story because where the player. But I think it would have been done better if they went further with the mechanic. By giving you more choices where you can actually feel the impact of them. Like maybe in the support conversations and then once you're used to this power. The game hit you upside the head with this choice that ultimately doesn't matter. I think that would have left a better impression of you feeling powerless.
I think the main issue with these choices is how soon you see them invalidated. You say don't sacrifice Emmeryn and then 30 seconds later you're watching her jump off a cliff. You say accept Lucina's judgement, and in the same exact scene, Lucina whimps out and Chrom comes to stop her either way. It's like those games where they ask if you'll save the kingdom, and then when you say no, it just gives you the choice again. It's okay if the overall plot doesn't change and there's really only one path, but after making a choice we need some time to see the effects of it before converging back to the true path.
I'd like to point out, in the first two instances, Robin had no power over what ended up occuring, both were decided by a seperate party; reminding the player they aren't the end all be all. The characters in the game decided how things played out, not you or any fate decided by the gods or in this case, us. Emmeryn killed herself before what we said could occur, Lucina lowered her blade instead of killing Robin. Only in the end did Robin take his/her decision into their own hands; as Chrom was insistent on slaying Grima himself instead of sacrificing you. But finally, Robin was able to grasp their own fate and make true on a decision they made.
dis gon' be good!
The illusion of choice is so powerful it allowed telltale to make way too many games, and get away with it. Illusions once broken have no allure (fitting as my MC in fire emblem was named allureign)
I believe the choices are simply to engage the player more, by making them think through hard decisions but taking away the mechanic of having to replay just to get an alternate story (Not everyone wants to playthrough again for minor decisions) or feeling like their decisions was wrong.
In my own belief this is the most likely scenario.
Great video! At least in the case of Emmeryn's death that was meant to be an illusion of choice. The choice was never meant to be Chrom's choice. It was purely Emmeryn. It didn't matter what he did she had already made up her mind that she was going to sacrifice herself. So, on that one at least, they're kind of justified.
I remember spending about half an hour deciding weather to sacrifce emmeryn, i was so sad when she jumped becuase it felt like i wasted my time. But it put me in chroms shoes and made me actaully like him
I think the player choice thing makes a lot of sense, because the player choice aspects of the game are their own story. It's not about Chrom, it's about Lucina and her mission. Lucina wanted to go to the past to change it, but time is fighting against us the entire way. It's only at the end of the journey when we really are able to change things and control fate with our own hands. At least, that seems to be what they're going for, to me. All the acts before the final one feign player control because the characters aren't really in control of the situation the way they want to be, but they are able to take control by the end of the game and really make a difference in the game, not just being pawns to some ill conceived fate or master plan by some villain.
That's just the way I took it, at least. Fates has a contrived narrative in many ways, but I actually liked this, if this is what they were really going for. That said, it makes me feel like we shouldn't have had a player character, cause we're clearly supposed to be embodying Chrom at these decisive moments and looking at these decisions and actions through his eyes
While I wasn't a fan of the way Awakening handled choice in the game I feel like the message was trying to get the player to empathize with Lucina in a way.
In the game Lucina is constantly worried about not changing the future or that her decisions did not matter.
I feel like in a subtle way that's the developers trying to put the player in Lucina's shoes.
Maybe the illusion of branching choice is actually a super deep metaphor for the themes of inescapable fate in the game. Nah, probably not.
I feel that some choices aren't simply yes/no. Some units may die if the player finds it necessary to beat the stage but they are unusable and they might not fill in for dialogue they normally say.
In fates conquest they had a better-ish choice.
[Spoilers for Fates Conquest/Echoes]
In echoes, Clive will get mad at Alm when Mathilda dies or if Alm kills Zeke, the villagers of Rigel Village will be more hostile or how there is alternate dialogue when certain things happen.
You can sacrifice Shura in chapter 16 to get boots or let him live to have him as a playable unit and there is extra dialogue if he fights Kotaro. The problem is that it won't affect anything afterwards.
I think part of the reason it doesn't work completely is that the "choice mechanic" isn't used ENOUGH. There are three major instances of player choice, and two of those choices dont matter in terms of plot structure. It was an ambitious idea, but it probably would've worked better if this mechanic was more utilized. Imagine one to two player choices per chapter that DID influence events, even if it was in smaller ways. Then the player becomes accustomed to having their input received. Then Emmeryn's death is a moment where Emmeryn takes choice away from the player and challenges the gameplay itself, all within a context that enforces the weight of the moment rather than enraging the player.
My opinion on this appears to be a little... strange, possibly because of how I play games like this, where I try to get into the POV character's head as much as possible and view the proceedings through that lens. In this case, I see the choice as essentially being over what I, as the Avatar, choose as my preferred option. Ultimately that ends up not mattering, but that's not because the choice itself is flawed, it's not, it's because it wasn't my choice that mattered. Given the situation, given what had just happened and was currently happening, even as I was making my decision, she was making hers, and in the end there was only one way that was going to turn out. I ended up choosing to sacrifice her, because, functioning as a tactician (you know, the job you're supposed to do), that was the only way to ensure that at least something came out of that place intact.
I felt a resonance from this scene, but it wasn't for Chrom. It was for Emmeryn. We looked at the same situation, and drew the same conclusion. Better to sacrifice what is ultimately just a single leader, who, while charismatic, was not irreplaceable, in exchange for ensuring that we would survive long enough for the pendulum to swing back in our favor. And ultimately, we were right.
Really, the choices are important because they are choices. Whether the results change or not doesn't matter. the choices exist in order to prompt you to think, both as yourself and as your Avatar, about what is before you, because these aren't easy choices. They aren't simple, and the answer you come up with is important, whether it changes anything or not. But... that's just my two cents.
I played FE late, so I was already used to this thanks to telltale and life is strange. But at this point I feel like the choices say more about you rather than changing the storyline
I kinda expected more to be honest. The 'illusion of choice' issue seen with many player-given choices (like in inFamous games) seems to go a step further here. Since we're on the topic of Emm's death, it seemed most redundant to me to have the option to 'sacrifice' her entirely, especially given that she returns in the SpotPass DLC later in the game. In that sense, though she is thought dead the majority of the game, what direct consequence came from 'losing' her in Chapter 10?
Temporary emotional buildup? Plot point of keeping the Emblem? Sparing Chrom the guilt of the choice? The game goes a step further than 'ignoring players' but downright nullifying the purpose of a choice entirely is what I was thinking would be addressed here. As far as Lucina's Judgement (Idk I personally thought it wouldn't matter since the Prologue, Invisible Ties was a cutscene from a fight we'd not even seen yet) and the wholly skipped Final Blow on Grima? I can't put it in my best words at the moment, but of all of them, I was just expecting more.
My main issue with "player choices" in Nintendo games is that I feel more often than not they always result in the same outcome (like it happened in Awakening or Zelda), a loop until you pick the right choice, or a joke and non-standard game over if you pick the wrong one (Paper Mario). I personally feel this happens in JRPG in general due to their more streamlined stories compared to their Western counterpart. Though that might be me having played the wrong games in the genre.
If meaningless choices weren't so common in Nintendo games, I could agree the powerlessness in Emmeryn's death could have that impact. But as it stands the continued use of this, even in Awakening itself, feels more like just another example of this trope with no further meaning.
I think the Emmeryn choice could've been impactful had Chrom's line where he really nails home the point of it being a helpless struggle been put in sooner. Instead, the chapter ends, and you have to clear another chapter before you get to that line. At that point, you're commanding your army again and the player has regained their agency, so the helpless mood is mostly gone, in favor of a more grieving and conflicted one to to match the battle in the mire. Maybe if there was a scene in between Emmeryn's death and the battle against Mustafa where Chrom expresses his frustration, it would've been more impactful to the player and it would feel less like the game is just being cheap and instead is trying to get the player to empathize with Chrom.
As much as I thought you made good points, I felt more sorry for Chrom than angry. You have to understand that I was THIS close to marrying Chrom before I settled on marrying Frederick. So, to see that precious sweetheart crying just made me want to cuddle him. That and I consider myself emphatic (with exceptions of course) so that was just second nature.
I like these choices causes it make u think about it. A good game story is all about what it makes you feel, even if it is frustation. I was replaying FE: SD this holidays and the story was really stoic and souless to me after the newer games,
Justify it how you like, give the developers all the slack you want, it doesn't change it's bad writing. They could ignore your choice for Emm's death but they would have to write Chrom's reaction after the fact based on what you had done. He didn't question Robin once, at least in my memory he didn't. He didn't even act any different, they didn't have to have multiple stories(even though it would add to the poor replayablitiy the game has)
When playing Taletell's The Walking Dead I wanted be a good role model for Clem, so seeing "Clementine will remember that" left a larger impact than Awakening did.
Eh, not bad on this video. I kinda knew the choices were useless before watching this video.
Edit: You earned a sub!
If you didn't know that the choices were useless, then the video would obviously have been one massive spoiler. It's very unlikely that anyone watched this video without having played the game.
I can’t speak to whether or not this works, but there is a certain relevancy to the idea of being offered branching paths that lead to the same point. The game in many ways is about wrestling with fate, and even if it’s unsatisfying, it works narratively with the plight against destiny!
Or maybe this player choice thing was trying to emphasize the whole theme of the game: can you change your fate? Although you may have changed when Emmeryn dies, you didn't change the event. The assassin thing didn't change it, and neither did your choice. Lucina couldn't kill Robin, because Chrom was going to interfere anyway, allowing fate to run it's course. The only choice that really matters, is the last one, showing that while some choices didn't alter fate, some of them are vital, so you shouldn't take each one lightly, because they're important. Sure it may have been frustrating, but after finishing the game, I understood why it worked with the theme. I don't know if I'm the only one that thinks this or whatever, but that's my piece on the issue.
Actually, I don't think it's about a matter of choice. It's about life having it's own process without you actually being able to do anything about it. Those choices are important, because they don't matter. You don't have the right to choose what another person will or will not do. Emmeryn made the choice for you. It's not about being "ignored". It's about "something you didn't plan happening, happened".
this an oldish video and not even my take but from a person that got me to play this game that avatars choice is about letting them be selfish letting them hold on to the hope of saving emmeryn despite the hopelessnes for the situation , defending themselves against Lucinas accuastion , staying with your friends but leaving grima to be resurected
I love Awakening, but I am very aware of its flaws. The "choices" being a major one that I feel wasn't as fleshed out as it could have been.
Someone above already mentioned that the choices could have been used to alter how other characters interact with the avatar (since Robin is meant to be a stand in for the player) but if I could change up at least one of the choices, I would change the final choice so that if Robin is the one that kills Grima its left ambiguous if he survives or not. I think this would make his sacrifice much more impactful and really drive home the whole "the strength of our bonds" aspect of the game.
If he was to return, maybe have the cutscene where Chrom and Lissa find him again play only if Robin gets enough supports with the rest of the cast during the playthrough. Or, have the Fates DLC with Awakening be an epilogue instead of a prologue. After the DLC ends and Corrin goes back to their world, Chrom can mention how Corrin reminded him of Robin somewhat and that he truly hopes to see his friend again. He, Frederick and Lissa could then visit the area they first found Robin to reminisce only to find him like they did the first time. We get the ending dialogue for Awakening, Robin reunites with Chrom and the Shepherds, happy ending.
Thoughts?
the sole "choice" that I actually enjoyed the implementation of was Emmeryn's sacrifice, none of the other options succeeded in conveying the concept of inevitable fate/destiny. Even the decision of who deals the final blow in the end fails, as "the power of friendship" kicks in, removing any actual impact to your decision. Awakening is flawed in many aspects, but there are definitely some well implemented ideas, or at least ideas that you can comprehend, but weren't executed properly.
Illusory choice is a problem that I feel many games have. For me personally the emotional impact of these scenes is not cheapened by this short coming.
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Just to add my two bits, I think the first choices were there to mostly foreshadow, rather than give the player any feeling of agency. "Would you be willing to sacrifice one person, however beloved, in order to save the world? Your friend's sibling, and a strong leader? What about yourself? Even if it saves the future (and that's a big IF), your friends will mourn you in the present." With that said, though, the game handled choice kinda badly, and I agree with the points raised in this video.
RIP Emmeryn 1 like - 1 Prayer For Emmeryn