Development of Italy's Armored Doctrine, 1918-1940
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
- The Italians were a very odd combination of very forward and quite conservative thinking in the inter-war period. Pure horse cavalry divisions were to work alongside armored divisions in a war of maneuver. As always, though we may well criticize the Italian armored units with the benefit of hindsight, much like the other nations covered, there was a fair bit of logic and sense behind what they did.
This is another video supporting the WW2 channel. / @worldwartwo
That is the first time I have listened to someone give me an understandable explanation of how the Italian army ended up with the Armored forces it had in Africa in 1940. Thank you for that.
Its written down in various places. Thanks to Chieftan for referencing the older doctrinal texts, most of which were only in military circles. I would interested to know if the Italian Army did any kind of wargaming with motorized units.
The Italian for "high mucky-mucks" is "alti papaveri" (which translates to "high poppies")
The Greek Tyrant giving advice to his son? Running another city state? (walking with his son's messenger, silently through a poppy field, lopping off the highest stalks with his walking stick.)
@@jefftheriault7260 damn, that gave me an elementary school flashback
it's sometimes tough being the first to innovate. the Italians did the same with their air forces. great ideas... no industrial capacity
same with their concept of intermediate cartridge on their small arms, they already have the rifle and ammo but don't have the time and the capacity to re-armed their forces when ww2 broke out
Great ideas and no means to put them to good use? You described Italy (my country) in almost any field in any period of time.
I wonder how things would be different had the Early Roman Republic achieve Industrialization?
I doubt Carthage and its Elephants could do anything to 1940 Italian tanks!
@@christiandauz3742 the Romans had the same problem the Italians had 2000 years later; no good, dense, fuel supplies. using charcoal and bellows they could make steel for weapons but for industry level production...you need coal (or later oil). plus they were a slave owning society. the elite's wealth was tided up in human resources... literally. there was no impetus to introduce labor saving devices. they had the water wheel and the cam but they never developed them as would be done in the middle ages and beyond
@Mialisus This might be late so pardon me.
Plus Semi-Automatic rifles. They already got workable design by the end of WWI and designed another one in the late 30s.
This is one of the first times I’ve actually heard constructive criticism of Italian armored units during the Second World War. I’m really curious though with how books and manuals coming out of Germany such as Rommel’s infantry attack, and Heinz Guderin’s Achtung Panzer, were received if at all by Italian strategists. It’s really become clear to me though how the panzerwaffe had an advantage since they could focus on building tanks based off of doctrine, and not have over 1,200 old tanks in inventory.
The Italians wanted faster tanks. Surprised they didn't just paint them all red.
Das kuz dey wuz stoopid 'umiez, 'umiez don't tink so gud, deyz nevah fink dat da red wunz wuz da fastest! Go'a be green to be dat smart!
Cheaper to just put on a "Type R" sticker
Brian Jones Type R sticker on a Fiat?
The Crimson Fucker *mumbles angrily in entrenching tool*
Formula 1
Imagine Italy finding the oil in Sirte, Libya in 1930.
They were very close to finding it, they just needed to drill a bit deeper.
@Skodaman2 they still had the problem of the british controlling the Mediterrean Sea
@Skodaman2 or Malta
I know, how different do think things would have been on both Italy and Germany sides... it would have definitely added more definitive power to the axis powers . Now would it have been a game changer?? I guess we'll never know. Can only speculate.
This is now my new official WW2 "what if".
The Mediterranean was controlled by the British in the East and the West (while they were allied to the French). With the exception of Malta, the Central Mediterranean was controlled by the Italians.
Chieftain, the Chaco War of 32-35 here in South America also saw the use of Italian L3 tanks. They were used against bunkers and fortifications in a very rough terrain. I don't know if there were any Italian observers taking note of the vehicles performances there or if this war had any impact on the development of the Italian doctrine.
Bolivians or Paraguayns?
@@klassehkhornate9636 I think the Bolivians bought them, but Paraguayans managed to stole some. Looking in the Wikipedia here right now, there they don't specify if the L3 really got into action in the Chaco, but it was certainly bought by Bolivia. An uncle of mine once visited Paraguay and he saw a monument with a L3 tank from the Chaco War displayed on it. Perhaps it's one of those captured by the Paraguayans.
Also, I have seen in museum here in Brazil a L3 on display. I don't have idea from where it came from though. During some civil unrest here in the 30s, tanks were used. It would be interesting to see if L3 tanks took action here in Brazil as well. But it could have been brought by our expeditionary force in Italy too. Our troops brought many captured war equipment from Europe after the war. We have even a captured PAK 43 on display here.
Stugbit Fz Qual museu? Em qual cidade? Obrigado!
@@klassehkhornate9636 www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/bolivian-armor/ little bit more info about Bolivian armor
@@paulosabib museu do exército no Rio de Janeiro. Tinham um L3 lá.
I'm curious how well the fiat 2000 would have performed on the battlefield of western front near the end of WW1. Compared to other tanks being used at the same time around 1918 it seems like a really good design. Well armored good visibility for the driver fully rotating 65mm cannon. And a engine compartment separate from the crew to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning which was a problem in almost every other tank at that time.
But the convertable design would offer insufficient artillery protection and the two man crew would be overworked.
Less manoeuvrable than an A7V, would be my guess. And that’s no small claim.
"Oh dear, the Italian language is on fire, time to get out'
I imagine the Italians hearing the The_Chieftain speak Italian as the equivalent of a Significant Emotional Event
@@Edax_Royeaux Yep, it was a S.E.E. when I couldn't figure out what book Visconti wrote, I had to feed some googled info to my AI logic to determine that the context suggests a likelier fit for "La guerra decisiva" (The decisive war) than "S. Giovanna D'Arco" (also written by Visconti)... ;)
But it's fun added to interesting!
Oh cara la lingua italiana e in fiamme. Tempo di uscire. (If it’s wrong blame google translate).
I feel sorry for the Spanish.
@@Edax_Royeaux or a significant motion.........
Excellent as always. And don't worry about butchering Italian ; as long as you refrain from making jokes about pasta and pizza every minute or so we don't really mind. It is a difficult language even for us sometimes. Looking forward to the next video !
Yeah I know your pain. (I am german)
@@Knallteute & Francesco Greggio
I am danish - I'd be happy to butcher both your languages :)))
@@noremorsewoodworking2258 but your language sounds so friendly
Knalltute-like French, fun to curse with!
Yeah, not everybody can have the same gift for languages as The Metatron, the Italian UA-camr who speaks English like an Englishman, and can also speak Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, and classical Latin, all fluently.
These Italians sound like quite reasonable chaps.
@Charles Yuditsky it is still suffering from it. Sadly.
apologies accepted. Thanks for the insight. It's refreshing to hear the words "logic", "forward thinking", "respectable" when speaking about italian armored warfare in the 1930's and 1940's.
Very well made As per normal. Very informative Chieftain!
why does it say 2 days ago, the vid was only uploaded today :0
@@siem3113 Patreon
SI EM patreon
I was wondering, if you will ever come to Italy, you can pay a visit to the Museo Storico della Motorizzazione Militare in Rome. Actually, the only place where you can see Italian tanks from WWII, apart from a few exceptions.
Even the p40!!!!?
@@aliminhas5981 yes, there is one.
Grazie del suggerimento , ne stavo cercando proprio uno ma abito nel Veneto e non abbiamo molto qui .
@@piersp38 Se sei in Veneto, ti consiglio il "Museo delle Forze Armate 1914-1945" a Montecchio Maggiore. Hanno almeno un M15/42 (appartenente alla collezione del Museo della Guerra di Rovereto) e un L3/35 entrambi restaurati e funzionanti, più la replica funzionante del Fiat 2000.
@@emmedigi89 Grazie ancora Matteo , abito nel trevigiano e non trovavo molto in zona . Verifico gli orari e ci andrò con molto piacere . Buona giornata
The mind is willing, but the flesh is weak and spongy.
*Spongy and bruised.
Al dente?
Iron Hands?
“I am the man with no name. Benito Mussolini, at your service.”
@@alexkorman1163 no name no brain
Thank you for a very informative and non biased video on the Italians. It’s something of a rarity on the internet. I hope you do a part two on this subject, thanks in advance
Very interesting video but I have to point out that the man at 17:10 is not Sebastiano Visconti Prasca but Greek general Papagos who ironically defeated Prasca in Albania.
Yes you did murder my language but who gives a shit, informative video as usual chief. Thanks for not memeing it to death
He got the complicated words right and murdered "angelo😂" angle o 😂
@Kyros Droztamyr tell that to the social Republic and Northern Italy
@adolf Dolf the Brits would have it work in the first place
.......
@@christianbateman2 Germans maybe, but not the British.
@@chaipup7045 .....all the German stuff failed.....did you not notice? 😂
It's so interesting to see how, in the mid- to-late 30's, the Italians were considered the primary Axis power and the main threat. They had a very good tank warfare doctrine, good ideas, and (by numbers) the most tanks. After their initial successes against the British in the Horn of Africa, they seemed to be quite dynamic and a serious threat.
Life is even more complicated. Italy (basically Mussolini) only really threw down his lot with Hitler definitively in 1940. He vacillated to the end, because while a fool, not enough of a fool not to realise what awaited him should he fail - his person was too publicly and concretely entwined in the body of the fascist government to escape blame. Had the French and British been less inflexible over his colonial escapades (however gruesome and wrong not more so than the French/Belgian/British ones) and he himself more reasonable in 1935/6 it is quite feasible that the "Axis" - which actually came about in 1939, would never have done so.
The Army had been quite adamant to Mussolini (and Mussolini told to Hitler at the start of the war in 1939) that there was nothing to back up any further war. Too much resources had been depleted in Ethiopia and Spain. The Army was in the middle of adopting new equipment (new semiauto rifle, new service cartridge, new tanks). The Air force had just selected it's first monoplane fighter. The only Italian armed force with a semblance of readiness for a war was the Navy.
1:20 Ok for Vittorio Veneto but Trieste isn't properly around flat lands. It's a city surrounded by a "highland" that is mostly hills and sinkholes (the Carso you mention later). Italian troops had to disembark in the center of the city from the sea instead of taking it from the surroundings. Far easier.
1:55 the proper translation should be "Machine gun armored car"
Excellent video. Good to have another reference featuring how the Italians saw the development of their own doctrine, as opposed to outsiders trying to pass judgement based on an incomplete read of the subject.
the Allo Allo clip cracked me up XD was not expecting that, well played ^w^
Eccellent presentation Chieftain. Thanks and Ciao from Rome, Italy.
P.s. Visconti Preaca photo is actually the Greek supreme commander Papagos I reckon
LOL loved that 'Allo "Allo reference..
The Italians had been using armoured crass early as the 1911-13 Italo-Turkish war. British troops came across some of these vehicles during Operation Compass in 1940-41. While the British still relied on the Rolls-Royce armoured car, which were almost as old, the Italians had the FIAT Ansaldo Autoblinda AB 40/41. The problem was that the British used theirs more aggressively than the Italians did. This was fortunate for the British because the AB 40/41 was a much superior vehicle. The AB 41 was superior to the L3-35 which was nominally a tank.
Hey Chieftain, these doctrinal videos are among my favourites of your output. Terrific historical context for understanding the Allied and Axis powers in WW2.
I’m currently reading the history of the Australian forces in North Africa - with a focus on Bardia, Libya - so have gone to this video to get an understanding of the Italian armour.
Terrific content - thanks!
An excellent and informative presentation. Thank you for bringing it to us.
You think we could have similar "Development videos" for post-WWII armored vehicles?
That would be a massive topic and each branch in each country would be a series in it's own.
Yes please.
@@The_Crimson_Fucker fantastic!
It’s not about vehicles it’s about armored doctrine and forces
I've been waiting for this video for quite a while.
Glad to see it.
The Italians also developed mobile infantry doctrine decades before the Germans did in WW1
So?
@@erichvonmanstein1952 it just so happens that you are not the only one who developed mobile infantry, that's it.
This series is amazing. What strikes me the most is how the individual experiences of each country during ww1 and inter war period, profoundly influenced their tank design.
I can hardly wait for a series on Romania, I hope you plan on doing one.
Chieftain the guy you show in 17:11 is General Pappagos chief of staff of the Greek army during the invasion of italy.
Bollocks
it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastiano_Visconti_Prasca?wprov=sfla1
@@TheChieftainsHatch www.ww2.gr/index.php?option=articles&id=1296
i Insist i know my history of my country and the prime ministers
The_Chieftain: the uniform aren't italian. This is Visconti Prasca images.app.goo.gl/mfwCFSc9JqBQDdsD8
Very good, and informative videos. Keep them coming Chieftain!
Nice One and Cheers - Wishing You Well plus keep up the cracking videos!
Thankyou for the great information on both wars very good to know more about it😊
Great video. You accompanied me on my way home at 2 o'clock in the morning.
I love this series you are doing. thank you
Been looking forward to this!
The chieftain is obviously an expert in the field of tanks, his knowledge about the history and development of armoured fighting vehicles is enormous.
These are awfully helpful! Keep 'em coming!
Fantastico video, I love this kind of things!
I've seen the "vlog" in which you spoke about the problema, but... Will we ever see the inside of an italian tank?
Fascinated by tank & tactics development of the interwar period. I believe the Italian word I’m looking for is “Bravissimo”! Keep up the good work sir.
Nice capsule history of the subject. As a fan of WWII Italian tanks ( aka a masochist) I salute you once again.
At 20:30 The Italians release a pamphlet describing combined arms warfare (blitzkrieg). This would have been in 1936 so these pamphlets should have been used and around Abyssinia. To bad the British didn’t find one of these pamphlets when they were coming through a few years later or the African campaign might have been won before the Americans became involved a few years later.
You nailed it , this is so accurate describing these scenario's
Ok you got me TC, I'm queueing with my M13/40 just as you got to part of the video.
Crazy good knowledge. Thanks for the research.
I've been waiting for this!
Great video, Chief thank you!
finally someone who looks into actual history as for my beautiful language that yes you did ....well butcher ...mhe don't worry about it well worth the good solid information that was dispensed.
Very informative video, thanks !
Excellent video! Thank you!
Could you do a video about Swedish Tanks from the 1930 to 1945?
He should do it from 1918 - 1945
Mr. Chieftain, can please add picture of every person who you talk about, so if we have met him before will know his story better.
I tried. I got one wrong (Prasca) and I couldn't find public domain images of many of the others.
Good stuff as always!
Grazie molte! A wonderfull video!
I have enjoyed all of these "development" videos. Most of this information on Italy was new to me. I look forward to more.
That was interesting.
My sole experience with Italian Armor is from WoT. The impression I got was that the Italian Tanks weren't that bad - they were just a year or two behind everyone else when actually deployed.
One thing - within the last year, after over 30 years of looking for it - I finally got a copy of "Attack and Retreat" (with Peter Falk).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_and_Retreat
The only problem is - it's in Italian - with no subtitles. But ... I was happy to have it. There was a version either dubbed in English or with English Subtitles but - that was out of stock ... permanently. It was only when I thought to look under the Italian title of the movie - that I was able to find it. This for a film I had seen one time on local television (around mid-night) when I was sixteen (long before VHS) - and never forgot.
.
Well when the M13/40 entered service is was on par with the British cruiser tanks. It became obsolete when the American M3 Grants and M4 Shermans arrived in North Africa
Some corrections:
04:20 Only one was sent to Libia and was soo slow and prone to break due to lack of filter that it never seen action (his destiny is unknown the other have become a monument in 1936.
4:40 the prununciation is not that bad but translation is wrong : it means special detachment of assault tanks
5:25 This is partially correct, the order of 1400 vehicles was intented to be built by many italian producers : Ansaldo, Fiat, Terni, Armstrong,Breda (*p28 see source)
5:40 the order was reduced to 150 not 100 (*p29 see source)
6:20 wrong translation it means Autonomous battery of assault tanks (Batteria autonoma carri d'assalto)
13:40 the 37mm cannon was adopted since the start the initial order of 1500 was supposed to have 840 fiat 3000 with 37mm (france model) and the rest with double machine gun intially of austrian tipe "Schwarzelose" then italian S.I.A .. then they decided to adopt hotchkiss. The engine upgrade is correct.
source: Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento DellEsercito Italiano Vol.I page 27-29 (The combat vehicles of the italian army volume 1 by Pignato (a pubblication of the official italian historical office for the italian army headquarter )
Not sure how I missed this when it came out. Glad you told me when the British one came out. "High Mucky Mucks - Alta Sporco letame" I think it is lost in transmission. You know it sounds like some of the Italians were actually up on stuff in the inter-war years but just a little off the mark. Doctrine -- Good, Equipment -- sorely lacking (but fun for model builders).
*before watching hope you mention grazianis book on mobile warfare.
Great video
Very interesting topic. Love C's heroic attempt to articulate Italian... and a passable assault it is, too.
I find the primary issue with the Italians at the time was their leadership and logistics, it was just terrible
Equipment wise it was considered adequate but like every equipment, they need supplies
Ok, your Italian language is far to be perfect, but the video is very interesting and informative, as always ;-) Thank you !
Well, I mean, if the engine is rated for 25 km/h, but it's only ever going 5 km/h, then the engine's not going to wear out nearly as quickly, I might think.
Nice Rasalhague icon.
Italy seems to have had great doctrine, but nothing of much notice to perform it, while most other nations had bad doctrine and bad tanks resulting from it, exception being Germany, with doctrine and something to back it up with.
Can't wait for future episode with Semoventes and Autoblindas!
Most interesting video on this channel, (maybe because i'm italian) learned new things i didn't know about. The chieftain italian wasn't so bad .......
Thanks Chief. At 16:20 you mention that in the inter-war period it was commonly thought that horse cavalry was still central to attack. Even in the context of new, mobile warfare, how on earth did any officers persist in this belief in an era of portable automatic weapons, mobile artillery and air power? As a teenager I spoke with an old man living in the Hospital for the Incurables in Dublin and he broke down in tears describing witnessing a cavalry attack caught out in the open in WWI. Surely by 1920 the military should have realised that horse cavalry had had its day? Any theories?
I can't speak to why so many nations militaries still thought horse calvary was useful, but even the U. S. had some mounted calvary into the 1930's.
And the German's ( among others ) had horse drawn artillery and supplies all through WWII.
@@williestyle35 the US always saw cavalry as scouts and mounted infantry. It was a European thing to see any use for heavy cavalry on the charge.
Remember also that the polish used very effective mounted troops in the 20s and 30s. Not for direct fighting on horses. But for the mobility this provided to move troops to battle. Particularly when mechanised vehicles were still more limited and expensive.
Indeed the Polish cavalry, fighting dismounted, gave the Germans a splendid kicking on 1st September 1939 at Mokra where they destroyed around 50 tanks.
But as you say they were mounted infantry well suited to work in Polish terrain.
The British had worked out cavalry's days were numbered before WW1, hence their emphasis on training cavalrymen to shoot properly so they could act dismounted,@@Jpdt19
Nice video
just a little correction: "carri" means tanks not cars.... just like "carri armati", for the rest you spelled italian words much better than the majority of youtubers^^
Oh the Chieftain and his Allo' Allo' Usage is the best thing ever... I know I said this on another video of his.... But they still always make my day.
1:13 "Perhaps they did it, because they could", I'm guessing you've encountered situations in which this happened:)
You must put a huge amount of work into these talks. Thank you.
They may not of had much but, damn they looked good doing it.
There is one FIAT 2000 that has been rebuilt from scratch, and in working conditions. It's in the Italian museum of the "1915-1945 MUSEO DELLE FORZE ARMATE" in Vicenza.
I know I saw a forum post on him years ago, but could you do a deep dive into the history of Nessie? He just seems like such a fine fellow there in the background.
Good Vid. Always curious how that monstrosity that was the Fiat 2000 came into being... And always had a soft spot for the Semovente guns. I wish they'd show up in WoT. I'd love a 'Bassoto" to drive around and slap shells into everything with.
@Tl2aV opinions are like a certain body part, it is said. Everyone has one and many of them stink.
Chieftain can you do one on the polish tank development please
Well, considering the myths around preWWII state such as that "9TP had gone into production, reeeeeee" and total denial of all their own work during soviet era... that would be problematic:|
It is not that dramatic: Buy FTs, Buy R35s, build TK-tankettes, copy Vickers-6ton, end.
@@krautreport202 there is also POST war tank industry. But as mentioned before, it was production of licensed and modification of soviet vehicles so they're not fond of mentioning it:\
@@TheArklyte not really, Poles still use t72 and pt91 which is 90's upgrade of t72 and offer them on trade fairs such as expo
Poles don't like to be associated with Eastern Bloc due to history but I guess that's fair enough.
What development? :P
As we approach June 22, I am looking forward to your lecture on the development of Soviet Armored Doctrine. Do you have any time frame when you might be publishing such a video?
Around June, I think.
I love that they looked at the first proper tank, had no clear idea how to used it in the battlefield, so the tripled the speed.
why not?
Ok, this is driving me crazy and google and bing are no help at all. What is that necktie on the shelf from?
Father’s Day gift from my 1-year old.
@@TheChieftainsHatch GoOgLe FaIlEd Us!!
Good Video .
was re-watching this and I'm interested in the soviet vid. Any idea on the time frame for it?
Sorry to bug you. But is there any long term plans for a cold war series? A hatch series involving cold war tanks like the AMX-30, Leopard, original M-60, and original Chieftain, T-62, T-72 series. No one ever writes about the T-62.
would love to hear your take on the future of tanks
Avanti!
Nice work.
The Soviet Sector might involve more blood in the Thirties, due to wreckers and counter revolutionary activity..
MHV has a really good video about italy military too.
Do *Czechoslovakia* next, please!
Yes for czechnology!
without czech tanktech germany would not have been able to pull off the poland and france campaigns
+1 Czech, They had a plan and were ready to fight, but got sold down the river by England. Case Green, 1938 would have been very interesting.
Yeah, they built one of most horrible tankette in history - tančík vzor 33 :-D hooray. (And some other really great stuff like LT vz. 38 and great guns like 4,7cm KPÚV vz. 38)
"Batteria autonoma carri d'assalto" actually means "independent battery of assault TANKS" ;)
P.s: Your italian pronunciation is actually quite good! (Of course, like all the native English speaker there's the usual problem with words ending in E, you pronounce it wrong, but that's normal. Keep in mind that all the words ending in E in italian, that E should be pronounced as the first E in Hetzer, speaking of tanks...)
Not a great example as that e's pronunciation is quite mutable in English accents.
Buzz Krieger I know that E pronunciation can vary a lot in English, but in Italian it doesn’t, the only sound we have for E is the same sound an English speaker makes when read the first E in Hetzer
The problem with your example is that that specific e in Hetzer isn't static in different English accents
What about inviting native speakers for the upcoming videos? Maybe you could implement their voice snippets so you and also your audience learn the correct pronounciation? Maybe it‘s to much of extra work, but I think it would take your well appreciated work onto the next level(:
Greetings from Germany
I´m European and wouldn´t have known about that border.
Geography is my one big weakness.
Luckily i still know more about it that a certain soccer player who said "Mayland or Madrid, as long as it´s Italy".
17:11 the guy pictured is not Sebastiano Visconti Prasca, it's Greek Field Marshall Alexandros Papagos.
right as ive been grinding the italian tree, currently in a fully upgraded p43 bis tier 6 medium tank
Just for future reference, it is Vittorio Vèneto, not Vittorio Venéto. 8-D (Just in case, I am available for pronounciation tips while you are preparing future videos on Italy).
excellent
Even best doctrines can´t overcome your lack of equipment. Tank toctrines without tanks is somewhat useless.
And without resources coming from a colonial empire.
after the soviets will you also cover the Imperial Japan's armoured doctrine in the interwar period
Sad to see stereotypes in the comments even under a well explained video...