@beliedat2457 Guarantee you Breakers buy more boxes/cases than everyday hobbyists. 😭 And once people wake up and realize that gamble doesn't match the return, it'll dry up faster than you think. Singles are the future.
@@yeetboi6806I’ve stopped buying from one of my LCS’s already. They overprice literally everything in that store - cards and supplies - and they won’t buy or trade anything that’s not graded. They won’t even buy 2024 low end parallels for their $1 boxes for $0.25 on the dollar. I don’t know how they’re still around.
Its ridiculous you can't get a flagship hobby for less than a 100 bucks. That's what drove me to baseball was actually being able to afford a hobby box. But after this update release I believe I'm done with even that. I have my two players I collect for my PC so other than a blaster here an there it's singles all the way..
I can go on Sony's website and order a PS5 for less then a box of Bowman Draft currently. What's the better deal, 400 for a PS5 or 125 bucks more for a box of cards?
Yeah people definitely made 3 X the price they paid for ps5 when it cam out and this is most thst resold them but the cards you can't resell for even 1.5 of the price unless you rip which in most case the cards not even worth the box
The boxes are way too expensive, it shows they don't care about kids (who the hobby was meant for) at all and don't get me started on 2nd hand sellers buying up all the product and turning around and selling it for 3 to 10 times the price. The 2024 heritage mini hobby box is a prime example, Topps charged $50 and Dave and Adam and the rest of Ebay crooks bought them out then turned and sold them close to $200. I messaged them and asked why and they wasn't even men enough to say to make more money but they said well everybody else was charging that, but they was the first boxes to go up on sell on Ebay I would have respected them more if they just said we are greedy POS. Adults ruin everything meant for kids!
This year, I bought a couple of retail boxes of Topps Series 1, 2 and Update, a hobby and some retail of Heritage and Stadium Club. I finished all of the sets at my LCS, ebay and CollX. For the first time, I bought into a couple of breaks (probably like $400) for Stadium Club and Chrome Update - didn't hit anything except a couple of base and insert Skenes and Elly. I was going to buy Bowman Draft but think its too expensive. I'll probably do less Heritage and breaks next year. Call me crazy but I love putting together base sets.
When I can buy a Paul skenes auto for $250 or the Allen trammel black out of 25 for $140 from the new Allen Ginter why would I pay $130 for a hobby box? Just buy the cards you want guys.
Fanatics essentially owning the market and being able to set / control prices is horrible for the average consumer in the end it will cause a lot of damage to the hobby
Haven't watched the video yet but I completely agree on card box prices being too high. Casual collectors are completely priced out of the "hobby" and now I just see everything as a gamble. I enjoy ripping and will buy some individual packs but now I am just hyper focused on PC players because its just too expensive. I always enjoy these videos and can't wait to hear you all break it down.
Loved this conversation guys. As a collector of both it was great to hear you all looking at this from another perspective. There's something to be said about giving my kids a $4 pack with the chance of them pulling THE BEST card out of it. That's one of the things I miss from baseball cards when I was a kid. Now it's either too expensive to open, or don't even know what I want to chase.
Here is my opinion on this all. I think Fanatics has created a conflict of interest that needs to be investigated, or at least probed. They sell the product for margin (obviously) but then have their own breaking platform for these boxes/cases to be mass opened on in which I assume they take a cut out of each break done...then on top of that they now have their own marketplace in fanatics collect where every single card opened from their products they ALREADY profited on (potentially twice) can be listed and sold which of course they would take a cut of again. This all feels like a huge conflict of interest not only for ethical reasons but also for price manipulation. One would think if they are triple dipping the box prices initially would be able to release lower in price, but no, they are going up exponentially.
The cap on pricing makes a ton of sense. Gun makers for example, control the retail prices. You're never getting a deal, but you're never getting ripped off either. Every time I look on blowout or steel city, I feel like I'm getting ripped off.
Should have started from the top down. You want to use it as a gambling fixation and it’s not. 90% of your money into key vintage and 5% into your new worthless BS . 5% max into prospecting if that’s your thing. Or maybe use the 5% towards paying off your mortgage or into a s and p mutual fund. You listened to idiots or thought you were smarter than the card companies and scammers that run it. Tough lesson. You’ll be smarter in 30-40 years. 🤞 good luck 🍀
It’s a result of its own success. Demand is high and breakers add to that. There is still fun to be had with singles, focusing on earlier eras like last decade, 2000s, 90, vintage, etc. There is still great cards to be had at good prices if hype is avoided.
@@cardsncrypto5819 I’m more conservative. I’m more of the ETFs holding for 30 years and collecting 4-5 current players that have a path to all time greatness. I get the risk/reward excitement though
I don’t even buy boxes anymore. I literally only buy philmington’s boxes. I refuse to spend the money. Zero reason for it. 9:13 this was ON POINT Phil!!!
The price of singles has not gone up proportionately with the cost of sealed boxes. I'm ok with other people taking the risk and me buying the handful of single cards I want in my collection. I don't take pleasure in other people losing their shirt .... but I can't make decisions for others but I'll buy their cards. The big thing that has happened in the last 5 years is we have seen base cards from most sets become worthless. For $150 you can buy a fantastic card for your PC or a hobby box with about $30 worth of cards you don't even care about.
Phil is absolutely right on Product Life Cycle, so I am in the same boat with Jeff on Singles. I look at the Case price and Buy the same amount in Singles one or two months after the Product is released. I Buy RCs for one year after release…I will end up with the top 6 Rookies in Base, Refractors, Relics, Numbered Cards and some Autographs. I end up with a few hundred cards per year as Topps is printing about 60 Sets per year. This has simplified my life - chasing Sportscards got crazy during the Pandemic. The evolution in the Hobby is happening too quickly…I couldn’t keep up with the Sportscards Hobby. 🤓⚾️
I used to buy lots of wax when it was affordable for me. I stashed a lot of wax also in addition to opening a lot I've now gravitated even more towards singles. Sealed wax will still hold value if its a high in demand product like Sapphire and Bowman Draft etc but the value you're getting doesn't justify opening it.
T-pott has a job and business to protect i get it but hes mistaken saying its better odds when its higher prices. Ppl are getting torched left and right with chrome update jumbo hobbies with shit autos and limited numbered cards. Print runs are up and prices are up.
I grew up during the junk wax era and fell out of collecting. Recently I thought about trying it out again and I just gave up. Too many products, too expensive, and too much of a gamble. Insane prices for the singles that will ever be worth anything. Just pure Insanity.
I’m in the same boat as you but my kid is collecting. I don’t even no where to start now. Probably just going vintage. They seem to be stable. Nolan Ryan rookie is good example,Ripken ,Boggs, Brett rookies are still cheap enough to invest in.
I don't collect Chrome, Prizm, or Optic any more because the price is so out of touch with what it should be. I am collecting Stadium Club this year, but retail only because, again, hobby is too pricey. I remember when most hobby products were less than $100. I remember buying Topps FINEST master box for a little over $100. This was just 5 years ago, folks. Sheesh!
I think Scotty made a good point on subjects. The only baseball was I buy to rip is Ginter…and that is mostly because you see names and things they don’t put in other products. Every product has 12 Ellys, Hollidays, Judges, etc. and for many players that TCU rookie patch card will be their only MLB card. Obviously you can’t exclude those huge names, but Topps could afford to diversify their insert and auto subjects more to add chase variability. Mascot cards only appearing in kids focused sets is also silly.
As a collector in an adjacent category (coins); watching the sports card market for several years I see collectors in the 25-40 demographic quickly tiring of new products/prospects and shifting almost exclusively to vintage and modern vintage (80s-90s). There are millions of new cards printed each year and a limited pool of money to push those values up. I’m afraid most of the people buying sealed product are more gambler than collector whether they recognize it or not.
Chris leaves the country for a couple weeks and the Boys spend 40 minutes talking Pokemon cards 😂 I feel like I even saw Jeff's soul leave his body to join Chris in Europe for a segment of that pokemon talk lol. I'm not an active participant in ultra modern wax but I believe natural capitalist markets will "find their way" when it comes to this stuff. And maybe the natural cadence of card collecting requires a period of dead time/consolidation following booms ala the post junk wax era (which of course that era of 95-98 or so has some of the most desirable cards in all the hobby) to reset the balance of things.
I used to rip a ton of hobby boxes (my YT channel has a lot of the openings), but I've slowed down tremendously. Still enjoying the hobby a ton but almost all my spending is on singles now.
There are an obscene amount of pack rips going on in Pokemon. I started two streamers on Fanatics 7 weeks ago and we are doing $100k/month probably half is rips half is singles and slabs. Tons of streamers endlessly rip product on whatnot, eBay live, fanatics etc in Pokemon as well.
My first year buying boxes and starting a good card collection for my sons who now enjoy it. It’s gotten stupid expensive and no longer worth it. Spent too much on hobby boxes, blasters and monster boxes only to end up with junk base cards and not even if our team. Still had to buy most as single on eBay. I’m telling them after Christmas we are done. No more.
I really enjoyed this conversation (i enjoy all your conversations but this one was very fun)! I liked how you guys made parallels between sports cards and TCG which were points that I have not considered. I used to collect pokemon cards when I was little but stopped only to go back to sports cards. Both have had major changes in the hobby but in different ways - so thanks for articulating those so clearly. I personally have also taken the approach of opening 1-2 boxes of Stadium Club hobby then only the occasional blaster until I have nearly enough to complete the set. Same with Series 1, 2, and Update but with just retail until I nearly complete the set. It keeps me going towards an attainable end goal rather than the rush of the chase. I've stopped with every other set since it has gotten to be way too overwhelming. I have also started to open the boxes while watching financial responsible UA-cam videos to prevent me from getting the itch to order more. Great topic and fantastic use of 49:52!
There's only one release where the value of opening a box is worth it, and that's flagship. I opened a lot of 2022 update and now 2024 update, and the ability to sell complete sets for $50 saves the opening. Every other set at this point has to be singles only to not lose 50-90% of your hobby dollars.
I'm seriously thinking about buying a box of Topps Chrome Update, but I know even if I get something nice thats worth about the price of the box, I'm not going to get that card graded and sell it. Plus, it will be a huge gamble if that player doesn't pan out, especially the RCs. The overall value of the cards might be high, but no one wants to buy commons on ebay unless they are getting a deal. Its like buying a lottery ticket and gambling.
A big problem is not being able to find retail product, but then walking into a "hobby"/"LCS" and seeing shelves full of retail product at 100% mark up. These stores should loose all of their hobby allocations if they are caught doing this practice.
The lottery ticket chase sports card model is trash. All these bounties are smoke and mirrors. The breakers are almost always douchey too…although I am seeing breaker’s attendance go WAY down. i think people are getting tired of it. Even whatnot is doing deals to bring more breakers to the platform, where before it was very difficult to be a breaker.
For what you receive in a typical Hobby/Jumbo Baseball Card box, yes the prices are prohibitively high. When prices first started to soar, I peeled back the number of purchased boxes back from 5-10 per year to 1-2. And now…it has been 2 years since I last bought a new Hobby/Jumbo box. Originally, I was upset over the SRPs and yes, I do miss opening these boxes - When you change a long standing purchasing pattern, there is an adjustment. To this end, I do rip a few blaster boxes for fun during the year but have zero expectations for huge hits. Opening boxes & packs is fun but so are maildays where those targeted treasures are finally yours. ~ The hobby changes and evolves but my enjoyment and motive for collecting remains the same despite the consistently changing tides. Like Ty says: “Collect what you love”.
I've resorted to buying singles for the most part. I actually think single prices have dropped relative to wax prices. More products keeps the single prices lower. Bit I could be mistaken.
The only way to bring prices down would be competition, which sadly wont be possible for a long time. Sure there are other ways to enjoy the hobby, but barrier to entry is important and its not only kids that are priced out of the hobby anymore, now your average adult cant even afford it.
I agree with you mostly. But I see kids (around the ages of 8-12) all the time with more expensive cards than I own....they must have a better job than most of us normal people.
Im not even going to blame breakers because they wouldnt exist if they didnt have customers. You just gotta find your lane. Ill open a few blasters of a product and then move on to something else. I dont need $200 worth of stadium club, just to pull a 29 yr old rookie reliever auto. Or a $600 panini football box for a retired tackle auto and points.
Breakers are driving up demand, which drives up prices. When I was a kid, I could earn money mowing yards, raking leaves, and washing cars and afford cards. There is no way my 7 year old could buy 2024 Topps on his own. This will kill the hobby.
In terms of the question surrounding lowering prices, I think you take T-Pott and Phil’s ideas but also tie it to those fixed, standard retail prices…but you also make the retail experience more like Hobby in terms of what can be pulled. Hobby prices are often driven up when the retail experience is terrible and cash limited collectors move to a format they can’t afford to have a chance at anything. We see this a lot in WWE. Another option is getting creative with Hobby formats. Like, if a Ginter Hobby box is $120…they could also do a Ginter-lite for $40 (like SC Compact) with one hit and the same odds on everything else. In many ways the service of breakers is that they’re offering custom “packs” more attuned to collector wants, if Fanatics could figure that out and cut out the middleman it would likely do well IMO. We also probably should accept high end products are just that. The big issue is formerly affordable stuff is getting sucked into that less affordable mid tier.
I agree with Phil something has to give. Me and my wife both have six figure incomes and there is no way I could afford to consistently open all these products and stay in the hobby. It makes me wonder how most of these people afford to buy into all these breaks and rip so much wax? For context I spend between $6-12k in the hobby each year. I went from most of that going toward wax in 2019/20 to at least 80% of that going toward singles now
Prices are out of control, and will continue to go up maybe. When you take a photo and make 5 plus variations of that is insane. This is all a cash grab for them.
A year ago I had the thought, what would be the equivalent of the '52 Mantle in Pokemon Cards? There is only 1 answer, the 1999 1st Edition Charizard. I bought a PSA 7 Shadowless to hold long term.
This whole conversation makes me think legacy parallels will be even more important the further down the road we get. All this new is mostly boring and re-hash (you have the occasional winner like the 1/1 chrome update debut patch autos.) Building up a brand and a solid year over year following makes legacy parallels the best way to enjoy collecting going forward.
Unless I missed a memo, Topps made a profit pre-Fanatics when box prices were more reasonable. Prices are silly. I stopped buying boxes a few years ago as I'm not getting cards of note or value. I don't feel like I'm getting my moneys worth if I end up with an autograph of the backup infielder of a losing team. I don't need every autograph to be a Barry Bonds, but when I get three boxes and the best auto is Taylor Featherston I feel like I can spend my money elsewhere.
Bowman’s Best is by far the best risk/reward if you like autos and a chance for something big. 4 autos for $300 or $75/per auto. Not too many modern baseball products have the $75/auto price point
I was excited when fanatics took over bc of there infrastructure. Hoping they would be the direct sellers of wax. No more distributors, keeping the prices in check a little more but in reality there the ones holding products back and also allowing the big retailers plenty of product to rip off the rest of the ppl wanting wax
Boy there’s a lot to unpack in this episode. Great discussion fellas! We all want lower wax prices for sure. For me it’s pushed me to pick my lane when it comes to product to rip. I’ll hop in a few case breaks on release week and chase my team. If I hit cool! if not I lick my wounds and hit some consignment auctions. Amount of different product is also too high. Topps did a good job at blending products together in my opinion. Stadium Club & Chrome for example, 16 packs each pack with a chrome card, a few numbered cards, still two autos. I wasn’t thrilled by the design this year so I skip the rip and buy into a break.
I have stopped buying wax from topps and I might open 1 box per year now. My last box opening was 2024 bowman chrome and I pulled about $20 worth of autos and parallels. I’m not doing it anymore. I’ve converted to buying singles only.
We are at a point where the demand for the experience of opening a box FAR exceeds the value of the cards inside it. The singles market just isn't capable of absorbing the product that's opened....the demand for opening is just too high. For myself, I've completely skipped Chrome Update and mostly skipped regular Chrome. I've never opened any of the higher end product...so that's pretty easy to ignore. It's so much cheaper to buy the singles once the hype dies down on it.
I have seen a lot of people come into the hobby and then leave because only wealthy people get to open new boxes. Fly tying and fly fishing is a more affordable hobby and it won't bankrupt you. Just sayin'.
MTG has forever been a product that consistently gives you at least your $ back or 50% of time over. Very rarely well you get a box that is like $20 less. You don’t get smoked in TCG openings like you do in sports. I found on eBay 250 chrome update cards with a skenes r3fractor for $75. I bought the couple of autos I wanted for $45 total 130 bucks and they want me to pay 525 for a jumbo lol
To me. Topps flagship is the baseball version of Pokémon. Printed a ton. You can find it everywhere. You can buy it by the pack and cheap. Because of how it’s printed breakers won’t break much of any of it… also every once in awhile a sealed box from years past will spike in value. Evolving sky’s or 2018 Topps update
And that is why the sportscard sections in Walmart and Target are falling off the shelves, while the Pokemon section is bare. Give me 151/Surging Sparks over all the retail stuff.
2022’s rookie class and specifically update got me back into ripping product. Opened a ton of 2022 update. Whenever I think about buying a 2024 product, I usually end up going on eBay and buying a box of 2022 update instead. I did the same thing with 2023 products.
I believe one thing and one thing alone has driven prices through the roof… breakers… the producers know they must have boxes of cards to run their business, so they no they are going to buy them no matter what. Of course the buzz of the hobby adds to it… but the main thing I believe is, breakers. It sad this has happened 😏
I chase JV gold, orange, and reds. A topps chrome expose red /5 came to auction which I won for a very reasonable price. With 1-40,000 pack odds it’s great to see it early and probably get the best price early in my opinion. On the other hand my son and daughter who are 7 love sports card (baseball) first then football/pokemon cannot have the chance to open wax, unless it’s Pokemon once in awhile. Which is 😢 but we do love going through value bins!
As someone who mostly only collected Pokémon my whole life and still to this day play the games y’all pretty much hit the nail on the head. I started learning about baseball early 2023 the biggest difference I noticed right away coming over to sports is the word VALUE is said in every video trying to learn about sports lmao All you hear is “these cards are what you want for VALUE” “you like this cool insert? NO! Buy these for the value” if I listened to those people I would only have just one card of Machado and it would be his 1st bowman. It took me nearly 6 months to even hear about image variation looked it up on UA-cam and found the blabbin guys and it’s been super fun ever since. Btw the guy was talking bad about variations and said “why buy that when you can get their 1st bowman” there’s more things I noticed but I’ve already typed for to long 😂 Shout out Ty he is way more in the loop about Pokémon and Nintendo than I would’ve guessed especially with the typhlosion and people talking about the laziness of the games 😂😂
It's not just the prices of boxes... it's the amount of players most people Wana collect. Ex. Wemby, shohei, kobe, brady, stroud, mahomes, judge, jordan... it seem like if it's not one of them or a few other players I didn't mention then everything else is almost worthless which is stupid af
I’ve had the most fun opening an$ building sets of Topps Paper and upperdeck Hockey hobby each year. I splurge with Topps chrome hobby but Football is all retail
I make decent money, not great but decent and after mortgage, car payments, etc. it’s hard for me to justify spending this much on wax. Can I? Sure, but it’s literally lighting money on fire. The return just isn’t close to being there.
On the Pokemon vs. sports card conversation, especially where kids are concerned...a kid can buy a $5 Pokemon pack and get the best alt-art card in the set. Sports cards paywall the best cards behind $500/800/1000+ packs.
As a person who has always loved sports, I am newer to the sports cards hobby but grew up loving Pokemon too. I still buy Pokemon cards and would love to buy sealed baseball products but I could get 5 boxes of Pokemon cards and get pretty cool stuff or one hobby box and get some random auto that’s not great. I wish it was more accessible but I do get the business aspect from Fanatics, even though it sucks for me.
Great episode as always guys keep it up! I just started ripping again recently (haven't done so since the 90's) because my niece and nephew have gotten into the Shohei craze so I thought it would be neat if I could pull some of his cards to give to them. I know it would be cheaper just to go out and buy the card but where's the fun in that and I've actually had a lot of fun doing it! I think what you guys are hooked up on is, you're only thinking about the ROI and not the fun of ripping. If you just think of it as entertainment (like going to the movies or carnival, seeing a show, etc.) then I think you won't mind doing as much. Just a thought. Have a Happy Thanksgiving guys! Ross from Hawaii. 🤙
Even if topps created a nice product at a reasonable price it would just get ruined by breakers purchasing it all and artificially inflating the prices, I mean they do it now. Breakers now break retail product which just tells me they absolutely don't care about the health of the hobby as long as they make that all mighty buck.
Very true. Every time there is a great ROI on a product, breakers drive up the prices then the next year Topps dramatically increases the price of that release so that they keep more of those profits. It’s a vicious cycle
Call me a sucker, but Topps Project 70 and the joy of ripping retail got me back into the hobby. I'll keep buying when it makes sense for me. I'd like to venture into uploading rip'n'sip series on UA-cam just to talk sports and feature a local brewery. 🤷♂️
Isn’t Pokemon more collected than all other sports cards combined? Also, as someone who doesn’t collect Pokemon, I want to thank Scott for a very simplistic breakdown of Pokemon cards.
Sad part is. Prices are going to make people stop buying boxes and leave the hobby
Hasn’t happened yet 😂
@beliedat2457 Guarantee you Breakers buy more boxes/cases than everyday hobbyists. 😭 And once people wake up and realize that gamble doesn't match the return, it'll dry up faster than you think.
Singles are the future.
The price is going to make people stop buying and make card shops close
@@dj2_cardsyou can’t get any singles if nobody’s opening the product
@@yeetboi6806I’ve stopped buying from one of my LCS’s already. They overprice literally everything in that store - cards and supplies - and they won’t buy or trade anything that’s not graded. They won’t even buy 2024 low end parallels for their $1 boxes for $0.25 on the dollar. I don’t know how they’re still around.
It's so crazy,, all the stupid breakers are ruining the whole hobby, and fanatics is realizing it
gamba gamba
Out of control. Mega Boxes and blaster boxes in particular have gotten out of control.
Its ridiculous you can't get a flagship hobby for less than a 100 bucks. That's what drove me to baseball was actually being able to afford a hobby box. But after this update release I believe I'm done with even that. I have my two players I collect for my PC so other than a blaster here an there it's singles all the way..
I can go on Sony's website and order a PS5 for less then a box of Bowman Draft currently. What's the better deal, 400 for a PS5 or 125 bucks more for a box of cards?
Yeah people definitely made 3 X the price they paid for ps5 when it cam out and this is most thst resold them but the cards you can't resell for even 1.5 of the price unless you rip which in most case the cards not even worth the box
The boxes are way too expensive, it shows they don't care about kids (who the hobby was meant for) at all and don't get me started on 2nd hand sellers buying up all the product and turning around and selling it for 3 to 10 times the price. The 2024 heritage mini hobby box is a prime example, Topps charged $50 and Dave and Adam and the rest of Ebay crooks bought them out then turned and sold them close to $200. I messaged them and asked why and they wasn't even men enough to say to make more money but they said well everybody else was charging that, but they was the first boxes to go up on sell on Ebay I would have respected them more if they just said we are greedy POS. Adults ruin everything meant for kids!
“They wasn’t even” yikes, what grade you make it to hick?
Most products simply aren’t made for kids anymore. They have products that are cheap for kids. Topps Holliday, series 1 paper, series 2 paper, etc.
This year, I bought a couple of retail boxes of Topps Series 1, 2 and Update, a hobby and some retail of Heritage and Stadium Club. I finished all of the sets at my LCS, ebay and CollX. For the first time, I bought into a couple of breaks (probably like $400) for Stadium Club and Chrome Update - didn't hit anything except a couple of base and insert Skenes and Elly. I was going to buy Bowman Draft but think its too expensive. I'll probably do less Heritage and breaks next year. Call me crazy but I love putting together base sets.
When I can buy a Paul skenes auto for $250 or the Allen trammel black out of 25 for $140 from the new Allen Ginter why would I pay $130 for a hobby box? Just buy the cards you want guys.
Fanatics essentially owning the market and being able to set / control prices is horrible for the average consumer in the end it will cause a lot of damage to the hobby
Yep. I'm done with new products in volume. I'd rather spend more on vintage.
Haven't watched the video yet but I completely agree on card box prices being too high. Casual collectors are completely priced out of the "hobby" and now I just see everything as a gamble. I enjoy ripping and will buy some individual packs but now I am just hyper focused on PC players because its just too expensive. I always enjoy these videos and can't wait to hear you all break it down.
Loved this conversation guys. As a collector of both it was great to hear you all looking at this from another perspective.
There's something to be said about giving my kids a $4 pack with the chance of them pulling THE BEST card out of it. That's one of the things I miss from baseball cards when I was a kid. Now it's either too expensive to open, or don't even know what I want to chase.
Thanks for watching, Mike. Totally agree.
Here is my opinion on this all. I think Fanatics has created a conflict of interest that needs to be investigated, or at least probed. They sell the product for margin (obviously) but then have their own breaking platform for these boxes/cases to be mass opened on in which I assume they take a cut out of each break done...then on top of that they now have their own marketplace in fanatics collect where every single card opened from their products they ALREADY profited on (potentially twice) can be listed and sold which of course they would take a cut of again. This all feels like a huge conflict of interest not only for ethical reasons but also for price manipulation. One would think if they are triple dipping the box prices initially would be able to release lower in price, but no, they are going up exponentially.
The cap on pricing makes a ton of sense. Gun makers for example, control the retail prices. You're never getting a deal, but you're never getting ripped off either. Every time I look on blowout or steel city, I feel like I'm getting ripped off.
Boxes are WAY too expensive. Your average collector like me is very limited in what they can afford.
im literally just about to leave sports cards.. sports cards is nonsense now.. complete nonsense
Should have started from the top down. You want to use it as a gambling fixation and it’s not. 90% of your money into key vintage and 5% into your new worthless BS . 5% max into prospecting if that’s your thing. Or maybe use the 5% towards paying off your mortgage or into a s and p mutual fund. You listened to idiots or thought you were smarter than the card companies and scammers that run it. Tough lesson. You’ll be smarter in 30-40 years. 🤞 good luck 🍀
It’s a result of its own success. Demand is high and breakers add to that. There is still fun to be had with singles, focusing on earlier eras like last decade, 2000s, 90, vintage, etc. There is still great cards to be had at good prices if hype is avoided.
Your name is cards & crypto 😂. Seems like you prefer risky assets. lol
@ryanra44 lmao. Risky assets is cash. I hold everything but that.
@@cardsncrypto5819 I’m more conservative. I’m more of the ETFs holding for 30 years and collecting 4-5 current players that have a path to all time greatness. I get the risk/reward excitement though
I've asked shop owners the best sports cards to invest in and the answer is the same every time. SEALED POKEMON. LOL
Yes they are!!
I don’t even buy boxes anymore. I literally only buy philmington’s boxes. I refuse to spend the money. Zero reason for it.
9:13 this was ON POINT Phil!!!
The price of singles has not gone up proportionately with the cost of sealed boxes. I'm ok with other people taking the risk and me buying the handful of single cards I want in my collection. I don't take pleasure in other people losing their shirt .... but I can't make decisions for others but I'll buy their cards. The big thing that has happened in the last 5 years is we have seen base cards from most sets become worthless. For $150 you can buy a fantastic card for your PC or a hobby box with about $30 worth of cards you don't even care about.
absolutely love how pokemon centric this episode was haha
I quit collecting this year because of how expensive and junk everything is
Phil is absolutely right on Product Life Cycle, so I am in the same boat with Jeff on Singles. I look at the Case price and Buy the same amount in Singles one or two months after the Product is released. I Buy RCs for one year after release…I will end up with the top 6 Rookies in Base, Refractors, Relics, Numbered Cards and some Autographs. I end up with a few hundred cards per year as Topps is printing about 60 Sets per year. This has simplified my life - chasing Sportscards got crazy during the Pandemic. The evolution in the Hobby is happening too quickly…I couldn’t keep up with the Sportscards Hobby. 🤓⚾️
Jeff here: Love the "Simplifying" idea. I have to dig out of all my boxes of useless cards from the pandemic...
I used to buy lots of wax when it was affordable for me. I stashed a lot of wax also in addition to opening a lot I've now gravitated even more towards singles. Sealed wax will still hold value if its a high in demand product like Sapphire and Bowman Draft etc but the value you're getting doesn't justify opening it.
T-pott has a job and business to protect i get it but hes mistaken saying its better odds when its higher prices. Ppl are getting torched left and right with chrome update jumbo hobbies with shit autos and limited numbered cards. Print runs are up and prices are up.
I speak my mind, all content is better when people are honest. Cmon Tpot
I grew up during the junk wax era and fell out of collecting. Recently I thought about trying it out again and I just gave up. Too many products, too expensive, and too much of a gamble. Insane prices for the singles that will ever be worth anything.
Just pure Insanity.
I’m in the same boat as you but my kid is collecting. I don’t even no where to start now. Probably just going vintage. They seem to be stable. Nolan Ryan rookie is good example,Ripken ,Boggs, Brett rookies are still cheap enough to invest in.
It sucks and is depressing. I hope it changes but don’t think it will. Too many gambling addicts who will spend whatever it takes to chase the dragon
I don't collect Chrome, Prizm, or Optic any more because the price is so out of touch with what it should be. I am collecting Stadium Club this year, but retail only because, again, hobby is too pricey. I remember when most hobby products were less than $100. I remember buying Topps FINEST master box for a little over $100. This was just 5 years ago, folks. Sheesh!
Philmington looks distractedly good in that shade of pink.
I think Scotty made a good point on subjects. The only baseball was I buy to rip is Ginter…and that is mostly because you see names and things they don’t put in other products. Every product has 12 Ellys, Hollidays, Judges, etc. and for many players that TCU rookie patch card will be their only MLB card. Obviously you can’t exclude those huge names, but Topps could afford to diversify their insert and auto subjects more to add chase variability. Mascot cards only appearing in kids focused sets is also silly.
Good chat. I think you should rip in your budget for enjoyment and fulfillment. Expect no big hits. And don’t buy it if you think it’s too overpriced
As a collector in an adjacent category (coins); watching the sports card market for several years I see collectors in the 25-40 demographic quickly tiring of new products/prospects and shifting almost exclusively to vintage and modern vintage (80s-90s). There are millions of new cards printed each year and a limited pool of money to push those values up. I’m afraid most of the people buying sealed product are more gambler than collector whether they recognize it or not.
Back in the 90s, MLB restricted how many sets could be released in a year. I think it was in the mid 20s total. The hobby is ridiculous now.
Chris leaves the country for a couple weeks and the Boys spend 40 minutes talking Pokemon cards 😂 I feel like I even saw Jeff's soul leave his body to join Chris in Europe for a segment of that pokemon talk lol.
I'm not an active participant in ultra modern wax but I believe natural capitalist markets will "find their way" when it comes to this stuff. And maybe the natural cadence of card collecting requires a period of dead time/consolidation following booms ala the post junk wax era (which of course that era of 95-98 or so has some of the most desirable cards in all the hobby) to reset the balance of things.
Jeff here: this comment made me laugh! Thanks, man 😂
Underrated comment 😂
I used to rip a ton of hobby boxes (my YT channel has a lot of the openings), but I've slowed down tremendously. Still enjoying the hobby a ton but almost all my spending is on singles now.
I loved T-Pott’s beautiful mind answer to his own “name one thing” question (not kidding - it was great)
Thank you, good sir!
There are an obscene amount of pack rips going on in Pokemon. I started two streamers on Fanatics 7 weeks ago and we are doing $100k/month probably half is rips half is singles and slabs. Tons of streamers endlessly rip product on whatnot, eBay live, fanatics etc in Pokemon as well.
My first year buying boxes and starting a good card collection for my sons who now enjoy it. It’s gotten stupid expensive and no longer worth it. Spent too much on hobby boxes, blasters and monster boxes only to end up with junk base cards and not even if our team. Still had to buy most as single on eBay. I’m telling them after Christmas we are done. No more.
I really enjoyed this conversation (i enjoy all your conversations but this one was very fun)! I liked how you guys made parallels between sports cards and TCG which were points that I have not considered. I used to collect pokemon cards when I was little but stopped only to go back to sports cards. Both have had major changes in the hobby but in different ways - so thanks for articulating those so clearly.
I personally have also taken the approach of opening 1-2 boxes of Stadium Club hobby then only the occasional blaster until I have nearly enough to complete the set. Same with Series 1, 2, and Update but with just retail until I nearly complete the set. It keeps me going towards an attainable end goal rather than the rush of the chase. I've stopped with every other set since it has gotten to be way too overwhelming. I have also started to open the boxes while watching financial responsible UA-cam videos to prevent me from getting the itch to order more.
Great topic and fantastic use of 49:52!
Appreciate it!
I only buy baseball products but as a Miami Hurricane fan when Cam Ward gets drafted I will pick a decent single of his Rookie Card.
There's only one release where the value of opening a box is worth it, and that's flagship. I opened a lot of 2022 update and now 2024 update, and the ability to sell complete sets for $50 saves the opening. Every other set at this point has to be singles only to not lose 50-90% of your hobby dollars.
Phil nailed it. We start by ripping. Then, after a few years, we wise up.
Jeff here: that certainly was my path, as well.
I think I'm probably done with wax forever. It's fun to find deals on singles and I have no interest in buying a $500 lottery ticket
Singles > hobby retail
I'm seriously thinking about buying a box of Topps Chrome Update, but I know even if I get something nice thats worth about the price of the box, I'm not going to get that card graded and sell it. Plus, it will be a huge gamble if that player doesn't pan out, especially the RCs. The overall value of the cards might be high, but no one wants to buy commons on ebay unless they are getting a deal. Its like buying a lottery ticket and gambling.
A big problem is not being able to find retail product, but then walking into a "hobby"/"LCS" and seeing shelves full of retail product at 100% mark up. These stores should loose all of their hobby allocations if they are caught doing this practice.
The lottery ticket chase sports card model is trash. All these bounties are smoke and mirrors. The breakers are almost always douchey too…although I am seeing breaker’s attendance go WAY down. i think people are getting tired of it. Even whatnot is doing deals to bring more breakers to the platform, where before it was very difficult to be a breaker.
My #1 gripe with the hobby right now.
"The rent is too damn high!" Jimmy McMillan.
Prices are outrageous but wont change until breakers stop buying
For what you receive in a typical Hobby/Jumbo Baseball Card box, yes the prices are prohibitively high. When prices first started to soar, I peeled back the number of purchased boxes back from 5-10 per year to 1-2. And now…it has been 2 years since I last bought a new Hobby/Jumbo box.
Originally, I was upset over the SRPs and yes, I do miss opening these boxes - When you change a long standing purchasing pattern, there is an adjustment. To this end, I do rip a few blaster boxes for fun during the year but have zero expectations for huge hits. Opening boxes & packs is fun but so are maildays where those targeted treasures are finally yours.
~ The hobby changes and evolves but my enjoyment and motive for collecting remains the same despite the consistently changing tides. Like Ty says: “Collect what you love”.
If you justify these prices because of the potential cards you can pull, then scratch tickets should be $1000 each because you can hit $1mil+
264 Charizard cards on TCDB
So I was close!
I've resorted to buying singles for the most part. I actually think single prices have dropped relative to wax prices. More products keeps the single prices lower. Bit I could be mistaken.
The only way to bring prices down would be competition, which sadly wont be possible for a long time. Sure there are other ways to enjoy the hobby, but barrier to entry is important and its not only kids that are priced out of the hobby anymore, now your average adult cant even afford it.
I agree with you mostly. But I see kids (around the ages of 8-12) all the time with more expensive cards than I own....they must have a better job than most of us normal people.
Im not even going to blame breakers because they wouldnt exist if they didnt have customers. You just gotta find your lane. Ill open a few blasters of a product and then move on to something else. I dont need $200 worth of stadium club, just to pull a 29 yr old rookie reliever auto. Or a $600 panini football box for a retired tackle auto and points.
Breakers are driving up demand, which drives up prices. When I was a kid, I could earn money mowing yards, raking leaves, and washing cars and afford cards. There is no way my 7 year old could buy 2024 Topps on his own. This will kill the hobby.
In terms of the question surrounding lowering prices, I think you take T-Pott and Phil’s ideas but also tie it to those fixed, standard retail prices…but you also make the retail experience more like Hobby in terms of what can be pulled. Hobby prices are often driven up when the retail experience is terrible and cash limited collectors move to a format they can’t afford to have a chance at anything. We see this a lot in WWE.
Another option is getting creative with Hobby formats. Like, if a Ginter Hobby box is $120…they could also do a Ginter-lite for $40 (like SC Compact) with one hit and the same odds on everything else. In many ways the service of breakers is that they’re offering custom “packs” more attuned to collector wants, if Fanatics could figure that out and cut out the middleman it would likely do well IMO.
We also probably should accept high end products are just that. The big issue is formerly affordable stuff is getting sucked into that less affordable mid tier.
“ FANTASTIC 4 “ 😎👌💯💪🏽
I agree with Phil something has to give. Me and my wife both have six figure incomes and there is no way I could afford to consistently open all these products and stay in the hobby. It makes me wonder how most of these people afford to buy into all these breaks and rip so much wax? For context I spend between $6-12k in the hobby each year. I went from most of that going toward wax in 2019/20 to at least 80% of that going toward singles now
TCG IS KING BABY!!! 😂😂😂
Prices are out of control, and will continue to go up maybe. When you take a photo and make 5 plus variations of that is insane. This is all a cash grab for them.
A year ago I had the thought, what would be the equivalent of the '52 Mantle in Pokemon Cards? There is only 1 answer, the 1999 1st Edition Charizard. I bought a PSA 7 Shadowless to hold long term.
Jeff here: Not knowing much about Pokemon, this still strikes me as a wise move.
@Blabbin_Bout_Slabbin yes sir
This whole conversation makes me think legacy parallels will be even more important the further down the road we get. All this new is mostly boring and re-hash (you have the occasional winner like the 1/1 chrome update debut patch autos.) Building up a brand and a solid year over year following makes legacy parallels the best way to enjoy collecting going forward.
Keep the great videos coming 🎉
Thank you!
Unless I missed a memo, Topps made a profit pre-Fanatics when box prices were more reasonable. Prices are silly. I stopped buying boxes a few years ago as I'm not getting cards of note or value. I don't feel like I'm getting my moneys worth if I end up with an autograph of the backup infielder of a losing team. I don't need every autograph to be a Barry Bonds, but when I get three boxes and the best auto is Taylor Featherston I feel like I can spend my money elsewhere.
Bowman’s Best is by far the best risk/reward if you like autos and a chance for something big. 4 autos for $300 or $75/per auto. Not too many modern baseball products have the $75/auto price point
Don’t forget - MLB does a horrific job marketing its star players
They all play for the Dodgers anyways 🤷🏼♂️
@@LaTortugaCardsyep. Until MLB stops Dodgers from making a mockery of the salary cap, it will always cap the ability of the sport/hobby to grow
Buying Caitlin clark cards
I was excited when fanatics took over bc of there infrastructure. Hoping they would be the direct sellers of wax. No more distributors, keeping the prices in check a little more but in reality there the ones holding products back and also allowing the big retailers plenty of product to rip off the rest of the ppl wanting wax
Boy there’s a lot to unpack in this episode. Great discussion fellas! We all want lower wax prices for sure.
For me it’s pushed me to pick my lane when it comes to product to rip. I’ll hop in a few case breaks on release week and chase my team. If I hit cool! if not I lick my wounds and hit some consignment auctions.
Amount of different product is also too high. Topps did a good job at blending products together in my opinion. Stadium Club & Chrome for example, 16 packs each pack with a chrome card, a few numbered cards, still two autos. I wasn’t thrilled by the design this year so I skip the rip and buy into a break.
I have stopped buying wax from topps and I might open 1 box per year now. My last box opening was 2024 bowman chrome and I pulled about $20 worth of autos and parallels. I’m not doing it anymore. I’ve converted to buying singles only.
We are at a point where the demand for the experience of opening a box FAR exceeds the value of the cards inside it. The singles market just isn't capable of absorbing the product that's opened....the demand for opening is just too high.
For myself, I've completely skipped Chrome Update and mostly skipped regular Chrome. I've never opened any of the higher end product...so that's pretty easy to ignore. It's so much cheaper to buy the singles once the hype dies down on it.
Well said
I have seen a lot of people come into the hobby and then leave because only wealthy people get to open new boxes. Fly tying and fly fishing is a more affordable hobby and it won't bankrupt you. Just sayin'.
MTG has forever been a product that consistently gives you at least your $ back or 50% of time over. Very rarely well you get a box that is like $20 less. You don’t get smoked in TCG openings like you do in sports. I found on eBay 250 chrome update cards with a skenes r3fractor for $75. I bought the couple of autos I wanted for $45 total 130 bucks and they want me to pay 525 for a jumbo lol
To me. Topps flagship is the baseball version of Pokémon. Printed a ton. You can find it everywhere. You can buy it by the pack and cheap. Because of how it’s printed breakers won’t break much of any of it… also every once in awhile a sealed box from years past will spike in value. Evolving sky’s or 2018 Topps update
And that is why the sportscard sections in Walmart and Target are falling off the shelves, while the Pokemon section is bare. Give me 151/Surging Sparks over all the retail stuff.
2022’s rookie class and specifically update got me back into ripping product. Opened a ton of 2022 update. Whenever I think about buying a 2024 product, I usually end up going on eBay and buying a box of 2022 update instead. I did the same thing with 2023 products.
I haven’t bought a hobby box in years, singles only, I’ve also shifted from ultra modern to vintage, and sp’s.
I believe one thing and one thing alone has driven prices through the roof… breakers… the producers know they must have boxes of cards to run their business, so they no they are going to buy them no matter what. Of course the buzz of the hobby adds to it… but the main thing I believe is, breakers. It sad this has happened 😏
If they need to charge as much as they do then they need to print much less
I chase JV gold, orange, and reds. A topps chrome expose red /5 came to auction which I won for a very reasonable price. With 1-40,000 pack odds it’s great to see it early and probably get the best price early in my opinion.
On the other hand my son and daughter who are 7 love sports card (baseball) first then football/pokemon cannot have the chance to open wax, unless it’s Pokemon once in awhile. Which is 😢 but we do love going through value bins!
I stopped buying new wax in 2022. The asking prices for sealed products make no financial sense.
This is good for greedy Topps and Panini with its new box releases to sell its products to please Fanatics, blahahaha!
#theendisnear
I was just thinking I'd like to hear you guys discuss the price of wax and if there are any products left even worth buying.
They raised price and doubled print run. It wasn't a choice
As someone who mostly only collected Pokémon my whole life and still to this day play the games y’all pretty much hit the nail on the head. I started learning about baseball early 2023 the biggest difference I noticed right away coming over to sports is the word VALUE is said in every video trying to learn about sports lmao
All you hear is “these cards are what you want for VALUE” “you like this cool insert? NO! Buy these for the value” if I listened to those people I would only have just one card of Machado and it would be his 1st bowman. It took me nearly 6 months to even hear about image variation looked it up on UA-cam and found the blabbin guys and it’s been super fun ever since. Btw the guy was talking bad about variations and said “why buy that when you can get their 1st bowman” there’s more things I noticed but I’ve already typed for to long 😂
Shout out Ty he is way more in the loop about Pokémon and Nintendo than I would’ve guessed especially with the typhlosion and people talking about the laziness of the games 😂😂
It's not just the prices of boxes... it's the amount of players most people Wana collect. Ex. Wemby, shohei, kobe, brady, stroud, mahomes, judge, jordan... it seem like if it's not one of them or a few other players I didn't mention then everything else is almost worthless which is stupid af
Basically it's for people with money now. Sad
But, Ty, they've increased the print run AND raised the price.
I’ve had the most fun opening an$ building sets of Topps Paper and upperdeck Hockey hobby each year. I splurge with Topps chrome hobby but Football is all retail
I make decent money, not great but decent and after mortgage, car payments, etc. it’s hard for me to justify spending this much on wax. Can I? Sure, but it’s literally lighting money on fire. The return just isn’t close to being there.
On the Pokemon vs. sports card conversation, especially where kids are concerned...a kid can buy a $5 Pokemon pack and get the best alt-art card in the set. Sports cards paywall the best cards behind $500/800/1000+ packs.
Problem is baseball wax is still cheaper than other sports. So there's more room for them to charge even more
As a person who has always loved sports, I am newer to the sports cards hobby but grew up loving Pokemon too. I still buy Pokemon cards and would love to buy sealed baseball products but I could get 5 boxes of Pokemon cards and get pretty cool stuff or one hobby box and get some random auto that’s not great. I wish it was more accessible but I do get the business aspect from Fanatics, even though it sucks for me.
Great episode as always guys keep it up! I just started ripping again recently (haven't done so since the 90's) because my niece and nephew have gotten into the Shohei craze so I thought it would be neat if I could pull some of his cards to give to them. I know it would be cheaper just to go out and buy the card but where's the fun in that and I've actually had a lot of fun doing it! I think what you guys are hooked up on is, you're only thinking about the ROI and not the fun of ripping. If you just think of it as entertainment (like going to the movies or carnival, seeing a show, etc.) then I think you won't mind doing as much. Just a thought. Have a Happy Thanksgiving guys! Ross from Hawaii. 🤙
Even if topps created a nice product at a reasonable price it would just get ruined by breakers purchasing it all and artificially inflating the prices, I mean they do it now. Breakers now break retail product which just tells me they absolutely don't care about the health of the hobby as long as they make that all mighty buck.
Very true. Every time there is a great ROI on a product, breakers drive up the prices then the next year Topps dramatically increases the price of that release so that they keep more of those profits. It’s a vicious cycle
Call me a sucker, but Topps Project 70 and the joy of ripping retail got me back into the hobby. I'll keep buying when it makes sense for me. I'd like to venture into uploading rip'n'sip series on UA-cam just to talk sports and feature a local brewery. 🤷♂️
they could not sell cases to single people or companies, only sell boxes, limit the number.
Isn’t Pokemon more collected than all other sports cards combined?
Also, as someone who doesn’t collect Pokemon, I want to thank Scott for a very simplistic breakdown of Pokemon cards.