The Sub Paragon's Buff Is Actually A NERF!? (BTD6)
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2024
- Today we check out the new sub paragon 'Nautic Siege Core' and discuss it's 'Last Strike' ability and how submerging it can buff heroes and other submarines!
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Game update: 41
Difficulty: Easy
Powers used:
Monkey knowledge: Enabled
Gametime:
Total pops:
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
00:34 - Degree 100
05:57 - Buffing subs
07:38 - Buffing heroes
12:12 - Final thoughts
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Sunset Samba
Title Music (Party Time)
Winter Is Coming
Sunshine Serenade
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i feel like instead of having the buff when submerge, it should have that buff when its not submerged, but the buff will be better if it is submerged.
technically it does, with it has the tier 5 bottom path buff while it's unsubmerge
It’s not +500 damage per projectile when submerged. Disappointing
@@SakanaKuKuRu it doesnt have to be that ridiculous, but definitely more than what we have right now considering how much dps you're sacrificng by having it submerged
@@SakanaKuKuRuyou want a xx1 sub to put dps a M.A.D.??? 💀
@@SnackGuy2Star Considering the fact that a MAD costs 60k and sub paragon base price tag is 400k - Yeah, I would hope that if I spend 500k - 800k money to buff a tower, that tower would deal more damage than a 60k tower
I feel like it's ability was made specificly for ranked bosses. You active the ability in round 119 and when the boss spawns the sub paragon deals a lot of damage to it
the ability probs aint gonna be the best at bosses as well because yea it does big single target damage but then it adds some goo on the map which still takes time to damage
i just feel like ace paragon or engi will still be better for bosses but we will see
@@rezehx8637 but for ranked elite bosses it doesnt matter which is best, cause you will use them all
@@svendaman925 paragon limit and the fact its not possible to get that much money is saying hi
@@fur_avery forgot about that boring feature :( still though there are only 3 paragons with strong instakill potential now which fits in the limit usually
@@svendaman925you only really need 3 paragons at max
I find it weird the buffs and ability do not scale with it’s paragon degree
Balancing a scaling buff is a major pain in the ass
just do a +(3)damage + 1/10 degree seems fair to me for a tower that can only buff subs or hero(?)
It can buff MILITARY monkeys
Hmm, this is definitely disappointing, but comparing it to jar of pickles, there is one huge difference: JoP is linear, but sub paragon is a multiplier. If there's ever gonna be a time it outscales super buffing (which already is a multiplier for Adora's low damage attacks), it's going to be Brickell's now 40 base damage pistol shot.
A 5xx sniper oof
@@abhinandhari7812 only heroes sadly. And subs, but their buff is different
Brickell isn't a damage hero for late game
@@shahar78985 true, but she has her own buffs she can give to the horde of buffed subs around her, and should be at least competent at damage too
@@maudley but if you are playing on logs then it wouldn't be useful
Mackan in your ability test the F-Bad goes through the loop and over the toxic stuff, which does a lot of damage, so that might explain that
hi mr. crosspaths
It might also depend on the paragon degree.
This has got to be the worst paragon for its price tbh. I never have seen so many people advocate for it and that it can be good. But it’s just an average Joe of a tower. Nav arch of the seas is so much better. I know it cost more, but it’s worth it in every scenario.
You do realize any new paragon coming out except maybe heli would be worse than a paragon who can one shot the toughest bloon in the game
The submerge shold do more damage i think because if you submerge it it does the same damage as ana energizer
Nah it definitely does more than the tier 5 but its STILL not enough damage
@supaboi9 50 per tick I think
50 damage per tick at degree 1, 110 damage per tick at degree 100
@@tsukara 110 is actually trash
@@tsukara thats still not a lot for a paragon, compared to his unsubmerged form its bad
Submerged giving a 10% Paragon cooldown reduction could be useful on bosses reliant on being damaged by those abilities. I'm thinking Goliath Doomship's Carpet bomb and Magus Perfectus' flame casket ability reloading faster (the latter in particular has a long cooldown and very good dps).
Worth noting they nerfed the cooldown on the doomship, with the sub buff bringing it back to the pre-nerf cooldown
@@maudley
Inventing a problem for a solution lol
@@randomjunkohyeah1 i mean sure, but they did say they thought it was a little too strong
I feel like they need to rework it honestly. Let it have first strike, but have its main thing be a crazy buff across the board. There's enough high damage paragons, let's have a relatively support based one
gonna hypothesise and say that the execution and reception of the engineer paragon possibly scared nk off from doing more support focused paragons
@@wii-u-enjoyer that makes no sense. since the engineer Paragon is a support class Paragon with 0 support features. And everyone was disappointed that it had no support features.
@@martinshoosterman "**execution** and reception"
i was trying to say that they fumbled the ball on making a support paragon and decided to put the idea of them on the backburner. My sincerest apologies if I didn't manage to get that point across. and it's at this point that i realise i was probably projecting onto a video game company.
On the topic of the engi para, iirc they said they were gonna rework it which was like, a year ago and there's been radio silence since.
@@wii-u-enjoyer They said they would rework it, but they won't do so until after there is another support paragon released. They want to rework it to not be damage focused, but they need there to be at least 1 damaged focused support Paragon because of dreadbaloon
@@martinshoosterman ah i see now. the specifics slipped my mind :P
The Sub Paragon's multiplicative damage buff while submerged is more potent on subs and heroes with **high base damage attacks.** The submerged state and Final Strike ability is more effective while a boss is **not** present; the Nautic Seige Core won't steal pops for future paragon towers, including a higher degree version of itself. It can also use the downtime between boss tiers to accelerate hero leveling and expedite ability preparation for the Wizard, Engineer and Ace Paragons.
Final Strike gains more value on the round(s) prior to a boss spawning, against bosses with invulnerability periods and later tiers of Phayze. Phayze's stacking slow aura doesn't affect ability cooldowns nor how long an ability takes to execute. This is in-part why the Goliath Doomship outperforms all other paragons against Elite Phayze by a longshot.
Counting a paragon’s ability to *not* do damage in its favor sounds pretty silly
yeah, heroes with a lot of base damage are better, because other buffs and debufs wont get affected by the slowdown if that makes sense
like this coment so he sees it
@@randomjunkohyeah1 it's not that it's not doing damage, it's saving up it's damage for a big burst later
Great points. Also submerged form does 50 damage/tick, +50 on cerams or +500 on bosses, at degree 1, apparently. That is not bad at all.
Why the hell does it slow down heroes!? NK, if you're gonna advertise a paragon that buffs heroes, DON'T include a direct downside!
i'm thinking it could have been a typo lol
@@ayoraster2970 but why would a paragon make your heroes worse in the first place? That's counterintuitive to the value paragons are supposed to bring
@@yolochip4889 yeah I know. maybe someone at ninja kiwi was like "I'll make heroes 1.5x faster" without realising they were doing the opposite
@@ayoraster2970 oh like a coding error. I gotcha
I think it was a combo of them expecting it to be paired with brickell, and not realizing that it nerfs most heroes if they're super buffed, which is already cheaper lol
The buff to Paragon cooldowns could really give a huge late game boost because you can use the Navarch's ability more often (plus you can easily place a Navarch in range of a sub paragon)
I think they should make Final Strike's wind-up depend on degree. Make it faster at higher degrees, along with doing more damage. Also just buff it's damage, it is way too weak at the moment, at the very least reduce the cooldown.
Ah yes, 80085 lives, truly a cultured amount
I think the nuke does the same damage regardless of Degree. Your test for the nuke was done on a Degree 1 Paragon which does less DPS raw to the F BAD so using the Nuke does more DMG. but a Degree 100 Paragon with high DPS will probably do more damage with raw DPS compared to using Nuke.
I feel like the sub is being overhyped, even though it's the cheapest paragon excluding Apex and Glaive Dominus
You could also say the sub is the cheapest military paragon so far, Even for its price A Degree 80 Submarine can solo Elite Bloonarius and Lych
I think most people just hate the ability timings.
how can it be overhyped when most people are saying it's trash?
The water paragons are supposed to be really good for the same reason that boats and subs are OP. Only half the maps have any water and only a few have enough water space for higher level water paragons
If the ability does % damage like 90% of BAD health it would be worth the 15 second wait and absurd cooldown cause it would be like narvach ability for late game but Specializes in grouped BADs
they should probably make the ability 10 seconds instead of 15. It may do more damage using the ability, but that doesn’t matter if the bloons leak before it even has a chance to use it
At least should do all the submerged stuff during
I personally think they should do a simple rework to have it to do the submerged things and unsubmerged things simultaneously along with allowing it to keep attacking while charging final strike.
Nah the charging/not attacking idea is cool. Just make it more powerful
Nah that just strips the whole identity of the tower. They should keep these quirks but make it actually worth using.
Its probably suppose to be in boss events paragon becuz the ability does huge damage and its the third cheapest paragon so u can get it pretty affordable
I think the submerged part should be used when ur using the ability so instead of doing nothing for 15 second it buffs other towers
I hope the slowdown is a bug, i have no idea why a buffing tower would have a random debuff that is counter intuitive to everything
It was in the patch notes as a feature
Video idea, what lasts the longest, all top path towers, all middle path towers, or all bottom path towers, crosspathing is up to you whether allowed or not.
Loving all the uploads man keep it up
What happened to the constant first strikes attack for the sub paragon? I distinctly remember seeing that in other videos
Ezili damage next to sub paragon must be crazy
Its +4 dmg 😂
Sub paragon buff only affects base dmg, Lvl 20 ezilli base dmg is 1, 5x that gives +4
It doesnt affect dot dmg or the ability
I'm pretty sure the ability is better on longer maps, but not shorter/more difficult maps. The round 200 FBAD could probably get from one side of #ouch to the other before the ability went off.
4:32 just after he said that i saw a plants vs zomies ads so i bet its going to be a type of plant in the magic category
3:42 is probably because of the degree, a higher degree will deal more damage because is always the same 15seconds without attacking
But the ability dmg also scales with degrees
@@josardoleon6894 The thing is the dps scales twice as much because it scales in dmg and attack speed
@@spectrite4533 im not sure how much the ability scales, ik its around 2x dmg on almost everything at max degree, but ace paragon ability gets like 4x dmg
The thing about using the ability is timing. I didn’t know that until fortified BAD came out. The BAD was halfway across the screen before it got to one and wiped it out. I recorded it on my UA-cam channel. Surprised I got that far.
Thank u for the great video❤
I think the idea behind the submerge-buff was, that you can get a cheap, low level sub-paragon for the T3 Boss, and then submerge it when it falls of and spam subs, as the buff doesn't depend on the paragon level. I don't know if that really works out and if you actually can spam enough subs to make it worth it, but I feel like that might have been the intention.
I feel like this would be a lot of fun with Sauda, since she deals huge damage to moabs if you stack DoT and stuns, so she would get massive bonus damage from the paragon.
finally someone talking about it I did a lot of testing and i was really disappointed and no one seem to care that the buff was nerfing the attackspeeds
sorry if its just me but when u said we only have 2 water based monkeys would it be 3 if u you include top parth beast hander
If I remember right it, it also follows the monkey knowledge that the sub commander has that allows the buff to be global. Although, I think it’s broken right now
I wonder if Churchill's machine-gun would benefit well from this? Perhaps Sauda or Corvus's spells?
Low base damage stuff benefits more from the additive bonuses from super buffing. This multiplies base damage, so you'd want something that starts high. Brickell just got buffed to have 40 base damage, though I don't know how pierce buffs work with her. Maybe Pat Fusty but that attack speed penalty can't be good for his stall ability
I’m wondering if the sub buff, now also is an extra standard when we talk about god buffing a tower. Because that would change a lot more for those type of videos/challenge.
It isnt, its mostly a nerf on every super buffed hero
You lose around 30%-33% dps on any god boosted hero
@@josardoleon6894 I was talking about towers. Because they only get buffed.
@@DolleFinn oh, it only works on subs, like the sub commander, but it only works in range and when submerged, unlike the commander that gets a global effect with one of the mk
I think nk while a good thing, try to balance all towers at once rather than balancing specific problems with towers. If that makes sense?
I imagine the Submarine Paragon would pair quite well with the Engineer Paragon, since by decreasing its ability cooldowns it's essentially increasing its DPS via sentry explosions. I also think that buffing the damage of other subs isn't entirely useless; it's a huge buff, and since you can use the ability while submerged you can submerge it before activating the ability to have other subs cover its downtime during the countdown (albeit at the cost of the monkey knowledge that increases its own strength when no other tier 5s are placed).
You could spam 204s without a 205, I'm not certain the buffs stack. If they do stack, I'm still not sure which option is better.
Hey it's our teacher uplouding again!
Edit: ok who the heck thought a decrease in attack rate for heroes would be a good idea
Sounds like it was an error (I hope)
I think for the hero buff, it's not quite like the jar of pickles. You don't want a lot of low damage attacks, you want high damage attacks because the attack buff is a multiplier. If you take Pat Fusty or Admiral Brickell''s level 20 attacks for example (As they're the ones most likely to naturally be in range of the sub paragon), then Pat goes from 10 damage per slap to 50 and Brickell goes from 40 to 200
It just looks like it's different because the multiplier occurs before the external buffs. But in high damage attacks the extra damage from the buffs are a smaller proportion of the damage
i need to test sub para buff on Corvus. Maybe more things increase in dmg than we expect?
(as a side note, I bet Etienne is pretty good with sub buff, churchill might be good given his inherent pierce and machine gun, quicey could go either way. )
I'm thinking Ezeili might be good with the buff, since attack speed isn't too important to her, she's just about raw damage. Jar of pickles is good on towers that do a lot of 1RBE damage rapidly (like overdrive) since it gives a flat increase to damage, but the sub paragon gives a multiplier (x5) so you'd want to go for heroes that don't hit fast, but hit HARD so they can fully benefit.
after i saw this video i looked how much exp it costed and i didnt see it but i kinda forgot to update the game and now i got it
finally I can have shooty turrets which one-shot fortified cerams
I feel like the Sub Paragon is pretty weak considering, but at the same time I guess I understand as it is low mid range in price, but it's still cool, just weak considering.
Also if you wait 15 seconds for the Final Strike attack, it should have the potential to wipe out everything (doesn't mean it has to do mega damage just the potential to)
Like for example instead of the final strike attacking the first and strongest or whatever they currently have, they should make 1 missile for every Bloon on screen (maybe to a limit to prevent crashing or lag) it should attack everything on screen in most cases.
I feel like the buff only applying to bass damage and not also Moab damage might be an oversight. I hope they change it.
Geraldo and his turrets get affected by the sun paragons’ buff. The buff is very effective for the turrets as they all do much more damage than they usually would, With just 6 turrets and Geraldo it did around 20000 pops vs doing about 3500 pops on round 200, this was also without any other Geraldo items such as the genies, chili peppers, or any other buffs besides the sub paragon. Probably a niche use case still but cool to know.
Honestly what I’m thinking is that you could get a degree 1 or whatever and just use it for the buff early game
Good thing NK listens to the community so they will most likely make a chamge to the sub paragon next update.
The hero buff seems to be tailored for Admiral Blackwell, since it quintuples base damage and her base dmg was buffed to 40 last patch, its a +160 dmg buff
still probably not that op
Aint no way blud playing late game relying on brickel pure damage 💀
I think it's funny that even submerged, the paragon is still mostly above water and rowering (heh) above all the other subs.
Low damage is all that matters whether you buff with pickles or not. Yes higher number of projectiles and higher attack speed means they're simply the better buff target, but that's because they're simply the better buff target not because pickles is more/less powerful on them.
tbh the ability should do percentage damage (maybe 30%) in addition toe the current damage. that way its still usable late game
Yo, Try buffing Adora and use Ball of Light. Theres a wierd interaction and with it up she does VTSG levels of damage. (note that when I tested I had her maxed buffed and compared her to an also max buffed VTSG. This only applys while ball of light is going) So Transform her, use the sub-paragon buff, then press ball of light.(this also multiples the effectiveness of temple/sungod buffs) All attack speed buffs you give her will also be something like 5X more effective than normal with the sub-paragon buffing her too. IT might not be intentional so the ball of light/subParagon interaction might be a bug. its wayyyyyy more powerful than the maximum potential of any other hero, and its not even close.
Most heroes get extra dmg to specific bloons with levels, so the sub paragon buff pretty much never 5x the damage of a lvl 20 hero
The submerge damage and other stuff should be passives, so the submerge stuff should be always active. Also when the ability count starts it should attack but with only 1 or 2 of its guns. Also buff the price to half a million.
I think this paragon is supposed to be a bit weaker in terms of dps and relative to other paragons, and it definitely has to be used with other towers to maximize its potential. Ninja kiwi definitely did a good job on making the paragon, not making it too weak, but also providing some unique support buffs to other towers around it. i think ninja kiwi is trying to make the new paragons weaker since we already have powerhouses like the navarc or the ascended shadow and the goliath doomship.
What about testing the buff with Quincy? I remember he scales with buffs pretty well but I don't know whether he has low base damage
I did it and god boosted he lose some damage with no external buff at lvl 20 it's roughly a 50% damage increase while with tsg permabrew homeland and ultraboost it was roughly a 30 nerf(did not test with the ability tho)
@@charles-olivierdaoust8397 Thanks for testing that! Guess NK didn't really think through this buff
Im not sure whats the point of submerging it, it only make sence if its getting ready to use its ability or if its low level. I would be cool if it buffed all towers and you could use it when dreadbloons military imunity is up or vortex stunned it, but right now it just doesnt seem to worth it 90% of the time.
Also where did you heard abaut these news of the upcoming water tower?
I can’t wait for the next paragon to have a 30 round cooldown that does 5 damage
I wish the ability would just instead half the attack speed or something while it’s arming the missile.
I think the hero that would get the highest pop increase from the paragon buff would be Etienne, right?
where in sweden are you from? greetings from norway
The paragon itself is strong which isnt the problem, the problem is that both of its other features, submerge and the ability are kinda usless when useing them makes your dps worse 95% of the time
I think that what they should have done is give the buffs to heroes and all military monkeys (including military paragons like ace and bucaneer) would have made a lot more sense to do so
6 time base damage on paragon would be a little broken i feel like
Also i think its not necessarily a fail but it doesnt meet my expectation like the engigon did. Even though engi is my favorite tower.
The only hero this buff works well with is brickell, her recently buffed base dmg of 40 goes up to 200, and the mega mine goes from 10k dmg to 50k, which isnt worth keeping the paragon submerged for
İn terms of lategame Ithink its usefull cuz you can make him attack normaly + when you need to use ability you can submerge him
So you can make carpet bombs came faste
The fact that it gives the same buffs as a degree 1 as it does as a degree 100 means, that you should probably compare the buffs with a much lower degree paragon. You can just leave it as a degree 1 if you go for submerge mode and spend money elsewhere
the thing hate most is that subs irl can fire missiles while being submerged, and this ultra insane overpowered expensive mega submarine cant? wtf
mermonkey’s gonna be sick
for me that might be the support tower
If you dont mind me asking. Whats your btd battles 2 username? and if its MAEKEN, it was an honour to play against you, even though you DDT rushed me when i was getting sniper farms XD
I have actually never play battles 1 or 2 :o
@@MackanRules There is a person called MAEKEN and hes the leader of a clan called Sweden lmao
It looks like an amazing tower for bossing, at least. Cheap and effective, just like a Sub should be.
I feel like they only make the towers and don’t even test them out before release there hasn’t been a single tower that had a release that wasn’t broken in an extreme way wether it game breaking good or bad
seems like a glitch
4:17 Erm, we have 2 and 1/3, because top path Beast Handler
For how long the ability cooldown is, the first strike is very underwhelming. I think it’s like… 3 minutes. So personally, I think the first strike should have a huge damage buff if the cooldown is gonna be really long. Like severely damage FBADs. Cause in a round 300 game, you want damage by the mega millions. And for a 3 minute cooldown, it’s not worth it really.
So many people seem to miss that the point of the submerge on this paragon is to provide a way to lose less of your dps during the charge-up of the ability. It’s clearly not meant to be something you just use all the time to replace the normal functioning of the tower.
It disables the submerge buff during the countdown.
@@splldcoke155 Oh, darn, I thought it was still there! I guess even NK forgot to make that the point of the feature😅
We have 3 water creatures, you are forgetting the beast tamer
Yeah the biggest thing with this is going to be opportunity cost right, like sure you can submerge it and buff other subs but does that outweigh just using it? Similarly with the nuke, is waiting 15 seconds with no attack for a burst that’s not even THAT strong worth? Honestly I don’t think so which makes it tough to say what needs to be done. It’s not bad but it’s not optimal either
mqybe you submerge while shooting the ability and the other sub are supposed to kinda compensate for the loss of damage
Sub buff = reverse jar of pickles
if you have degree 1 i think its beter
Seem like a boss rank mode paragon
Anyone else notice the number of lives he has at the start or is it just me
i really like the design and how it feels but the scaling of paragons is all over the place. like i get that the navarch for example costs 100k more but that a degree 1 navarch survives further solo then a degree 100 sub is just stupid. if you can get either one there will never be a scenario where the sub is better even if you spend a million more on it.
submerged mode shows how much ninja kiwi wants to marge all tiers into one paragon
even tho its shit there it is power of 3 tiers
This paragon definitely needs a rework in popping power and support capability while making the paragon a lot more expensive cuz no way I'll tolerate this paragon being treated as an expensive first strike against bosses and an energizer for other paragons
0:03 Why did I except you to say "Geometry Dash"?
yes
a paragon thats only usable in early game... interesting choice
Me when mackan does 🎉🎉
I'll never use the buff version of it anyway.
And waiting 15sec for the ability is to long and useless if the paragon does more damage in 15sec.
the tank guys mini gun only dose one ever
wait what? new water tower???
Why is the game out of 300 rounds
btd needs to stop adding paragons and make a water monkey for each type (primary support etc) so that you can get VTSG on mainly water maps
if this tower was only 50k cheaper I wouldn't really complain. Its not supposed to be the strongest. However some things with this paragon should change.
First of all the base attack is fine. The ability and submerge buff need to change. Unpopular opinion the ability cooldown should not change. I like having a rare ability thats super strong. Sadly its not super strong.
The submerge buff should be well buffed.
I do understand NK only had 1.25 months to add this paragon. Some things might change. We will just have to wait and see.
churchill has low damage but fast attack speed
wadahel oh ma gawd
You forgot beast handler
Getting more damage out of subs from the submerge buff from the paragon than the paragon itself would deal unsubmerged seems completely pointless and futile to me. Imagine if the subs were actually stronger than the paragon. That would make the paragon borderline pointless as a damage tower itself. And if it's the other way around, it's just never worth submerging.
And not having Energizer automatically is also bad, since that can be really important for buffing more and if you put down an Energizer , you lose the Monkey Knowledge buff to paragons, which is quite a lot of power.
Furthermore, what's even the point of 5x hero XP? At the point you're getting a paragon, you can easily max out a hero anyway, assuming the hero isn't maxed already.
I understand the desire to have a submerge functionality, but remember that Energizer does *not* need to be submerged to give its buffs at all. It's just switching from one style of attack to another and even there, it's objectively better to use one over the other 99.999% of the time.