1917 Vulcan Steam Locomotive: Removing a Damaged Steam Chest for Repair
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- 1917 Vulcan Steam Locomotive: Removing a Damaged Steam Chest for Repair
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I would check that operating rod connected to the steam chest, as it seemed bent to me, and that could cause an eccentric loading on that packing gland if everything isn't in line.
That could also be the root of the problem that appeared to be worn bushings.
I also noticed this as well
Yeah, I agree. You can see the rod isn’t straight and true @ 11:11 or so, as Keith is unscrewing it.
Remember the old days when Keith would take the big projects from his shop over to the museum.
Now he takes the big projects from the museum over to his shop.
Love seeing the insides of the Steam valve. that is quite the crack.
Don't apologize about lighting. you're there to fix the train, not make movies. First off It's cool just to see inside the steam chest, and we will get to see the repair, and see it going back into service. I'm not into model steam, but I also follow Keith Appelton, and its also cool to see the full size parts vs scale parts. Keep up the good work.
It is impressive what our forefathers did more than 100 years ago. Thanks very much for sharing this. I have always loved the old steam trains.
Great to see the item in it's real world setting, very cool.
Nice! I have missed the museum content and the locomotive.
Thanks for posting. You mentioned that the crack was allowing the ear to fail downward, which looks to be the case. The long rod you removed looked like it wasn't straight. It would seem that future damage might be avoided if that rod was straightened and the part was made true so the forward and backward motion of the rods were as close as possible to parallel with the surfaces the valve slides on. I hope the preceding sentence makes sense.
I understood you OK. And I ein't that smart. Is it ein't or ain't or neither?
This is the kind of thing I like to see from you Keith, repairing things. As a longtime repairman myself our methods and ideas may differ as well as the machinery we encounter. But as long as I have been at it, close to 40 years now, I still love to see how others go about solving problems and making repairs. Always learning and sharing information with my peers, it's what make us better craftsman. Looks like a fun project. Looking forward to the brazing segment. Cheers
Noticed it looked like the rod was bent when you removed it. Did something come down on it and bend it That could have put extra pressure on it causing the crack. But should work good repaired. Looking forward to seeing the rest of it
I'd wager somebody stepped on it in the last 110 years.
Looks to me that there is a definite alignment issue that is putting downward pressure on that sealing gland. Each time the valve rod moves through the gland it’s being forced through at slight angle not parallel to the mating surfaces of the valve and the upper plate of the steam chest and the porting surface in the cylinder. This creates a stress on the sealing gland body that repeats with each stroke of the valve. Eventually the stress creates micro defects in the metallic lattice structure, and these defect vacancies coalesce into voids and the voids further concentrate the stress which leads to cracks forming. This is the mechanism for fatigue cracking. Unless the alignment issue is corrected the repair will fail again as repetitive cycles stress and relax the brazing. A bent valve actuating rod could be the source of the alignment issue.
I realize you may have already finished this repair by the time the video is posted but if you were to make a silicon pattern from the steam chest you could then make a plaster positive to have a copy of the chest to use as a core to have as casting made. May be easier than starting from scratch with prints. Also, easy to modify and beef up the flange area so it never happens again. Just glad to see you back at the museum
Can’t. Remember, the casting shrinks by a significant amount when it cools so any casting made from an original will be too small.
@@whodat90 i think cast iron shrinks only 1%, if the inside ends up 1% too small, it can be machined to the correct size, and if the outside ends up 1% too small, it doesn't really matter, and cracked area can be be modified prior to casting to make it way stronger...
1/8" per foot
@@anthonyraffin1034 1/8" per foot should be very close to 1%
The videos where you're working on the museum's exhibits are a favorite of mine!
I think these little narrow gauge saddletankers are such cute, cheery little locos. Happily pushing and pulling all day long
I kept staring at that crack and trying to imagine what the failure mechanism was. The valve rod *should* be pulling straight in and out, so all the force should be just pushing or pulling straight in line with the rod. It seems like there must have been some side to side (or up and down) motion of the valve stem to have fatigued that packing gland to the point that it broke. I'm wondering if this break is a symptom of something else out of adjustment or alignment with the right-hand valve actuating mechanism.
As Keith pointed out, welding cast iron makes for brittleness. Vibration is ALWAYS present, to some degree. The weld held up for 25 years, which is not exactly shabby.
@@eliduttman315 That still doesn't explain the original failure. There is obviously some misalignment somewhere and for now I would start by straightening the valve rod which is bent.
Yes, I was musing as to what the failure story was. I noticed that the rod which screws onto it is bent, which is either a symptom or a possible cause, and I wonder if the gland was ever overtightened.
@@eliduttman315 25 years is a long time but the engine was probably fired only a few times per year. Still, something is causing that part to fail as several have pointed out. Love Keith’s knowledge and expertise in old technology.
Thanks for brining us along Keith ! Your welding gas supplier is seeing dollar signs right now..Lol
ATB....Dean
So nice to see you fixing steam engines again.
I've always wondered why you can't just use the old part as the pattern for a new casting? I understand shrinking is a concern, but one could build up the piece with clay or filler to allow for the expected shrinkage... thanks for another fun video!
Thanks Kieth 👌🇬🇧
There are foundries that say they can scan the part, 3D-print the part in casting sand and cast the part. They advertise a 7-day turnaround.
THANKS KEITH
Hello from Fayetteville, NC Keith. While many have commented on the valve rod possibly being bent or out of alignment, which makes a lot of sense, I’m thinking that perhaps the maintenance folks may have been over tightening the gland that keeps the packing around the valve rod. The pressure created compressing that graphite packing material is very high and it needs to go somewhere. Is there a maintenance reference saying how much to tighten the gland studs? I used to work for an industrial valve repair shop and we had that problem with one client that managed to destroy several valves before they realized they only needed to turn the packing cap 1/10th of a turn at a time ONLY when it leaked; they were turning it every week as a preventive method.
If you do make a new casting, It would not be a bad idea to redesign that area to make it more robust.
"They don't make 'em like they use' to!" Could you imagine car owners if they had to have Babbitt bearings replaced?!?!?! I appreciate your dedication to the technology and art.
Keith, excellent idea to let Clark at Windy Hill Foundry cast a new piece, and video his casting process as well. Thanks
Excellent! Thank you for posting. I love the steam related stuff.
Some guys have all the fun😁 Great video, as usual!!
Yes Keith, Windy Hill Foundry is the last solution and don't forget, to scrape in all flat surfaces, as you alwys do. You are our master scraper, regardless, how old the machines are. We want see you scracht old surfaces, regardless how old and reliable they were in the past prior ur destructive scratching.
Thank you for your instructive and inspiring videos. Thank you for sharing your journey, the time and errort are appreciated!
This would be a MAJOR project for me. Looking forward to the next video.
Keith is a stud. That was hard work.
Looks like they just went over the top with no prep. Kind of odd that it failed in the weld and not the cast. I guess it did because it was so thin.
What ever happened to the coal feed engine that Abom couldn't machine? That was a fascinating device and I wondered how it would go back together.
I suspect the completion of the HBM restoration project is on the critical path for the stoker engine to be worked on again... The first time I saw that stoker engine case, I thought to myself "this is an ideal application for a small HBM...". Then Keith bought one...
Thank you for sharing. 👍👀Enjoyed.
thanks for sharrng!
Thank you for the video. Looking forward to the next episode 👍🇦🇺
Very impressive Keith !!
Very cool Keith
That flange on the front driver….. wow
Very interesting video!
Hello Keith! Love the channel, i have watched and learned from your videos every episode. I have had good results with o/a welding with high silicon iron rod and flux. Would love to hear your thoughts on this type of process for cast iron.
... interesting ... I'll take your whole stock of videos like this Keith.
It broke where the packing is. Nice little tank engine.
I see they made that cover out of light weight cast iron :) I hope you back is okay.
I kinda chuckled when Keith had help with the steam chest (?) but didn’t have help with the cast cover that looked like it was twice as heavy. I wondered when he took that cover off why he didn’t have any help.
Great to see
If you do get it recast, make the neck bigger. There's no reason (by my reckoning) for that neck to be so flask like. I've seen a few stuffing boxes of this design and it's always a weak point. Were it me, i'd make the rod the weak point, rather than the casting (because i get why the casting is done the way it is).
Thanks for sharing
Last video i was thinking its been a while that you where working on the locomotive at the museum.
So technically it's my fault?
Two old guys getting some serious sh it done. Is there anything more motivating? Nice work, guys.
Wow, that is a nasty looking crack. Hopefully it repairs up without any issues.
I dont do 3D printing stuff but someone, somewhere can laser scan that entire thing, enlarge it by 5-10% (?) for casting shrinkage, and print the positive. I for one like the idea of the silicone mold, then a plaster positive. Then you could "easily" modify the positive to get a little bigger positive. Sounds easy enough :-)
Hi Keith,
Great subject mate…. super interesting.
Are you going to re-bore and bush the repaired gland section to ensure correct alignment ?
Thanks for the time and effort that you put in 👏🤨
Regards
Robert
Even if you do find the blue prints, maybe you should modify the prints to beef up that area to make it a little strong part so it can handle the stress better. It looks like a weak area from just the way it was designed. Just an idea...
Counter-intuitively, beefing up a design could actually make it more likely to break! These engines often will have weak points designed into them such that in the case of a failure it doesn't destroy itself. For a 100 year old loco it's not doing so badly, I would expect the new part to last at least another 100 years again and maybe even longer with the high quality materials and processes we have available to us today
Valve bodies were a wear point. Remember these engines weren't designed to last for over 100 years they had a service life of around 30 to 40 years before being retired and scrapped. These things are literally older than the engineers thought they'd make it.
I wonder is there is a stress exerted on that part of the casting from the rod motion for the valve that contributed to the part initially cracking along with the heat cycling for decades.
Is the stoker motor for the Nashville group done? Anymore videos on that coming?
In the last two weeks of October I’ll be visiting Alabama. I’m hoping to go to the Agriculture museum. Will the train be running then?
It is very probable that this repair done with better materials will outlast the many other wear items of this venerable locomotive. Some of which may prove to be difficult and expensive to repair or replace. Bank the money of a new casting for future projects sure to appear. Thanks Keith! Your fans in St Marys, GA
Time to make some foundry patterns.
That front valve is called a "snifting" valve
One of the major reasons why railroads went from steam locomotives to diesel-electric is that railroads estimated that an hour of maintenance was needed for every hour of operation for a steam locomotive. Diesel-electrics need about an hour of maintenance for every 20 hours of operation.
hey keith ! thanks for the videos as always. im looking at the failure and at the design of the chest....im thinking thats a flaw in design and will fail there again. i ponder if cutting it flush to the steam chest boring and threading the chest and using pipe to recreate the stuffing box for the valve rod. any future failure would not require removal of the valve body just the threaded pipe but steel plays better with bending than cast so it probably would not fail.
Hi Keith, A great video; love to see how these components that you are going to repair, fit in with the entirety of the locomotive. Thanks.
An even better repair than brazing is to use cast iron filler. See, for instance, the repairs that The Steam Workshop did on their 2' narrow gauge Fowler locomotive: ua-cam.com/video/JHCXMexB5B8/v-deo.html
Be well & Best regards, Gottfried
Nice link. I worked in Gray & Ductile foundry. The molecular composition of the cast iron does indeed change. How they (in your link) slowly brought up the heat in the casting was smart.
Finally, back to the choo choo's.
Would a brazing repair done now still last indefinitely or would it always be prone to failing again due to the nickel rod impacting the integrity of the casting itself?
It's possible to anneal the cast iron to take out the brittleness. The nickle would still be there and might still be a problem though.
Windy Mill Foundry could knock one of those out in a few days with extra support on the bosses. I get keeping things original, but the size and position of that crack suggests it will keep reappearing
Keith: What's the status on the Steam stoker engine? Haven't heard about it in a long time. Thanks. Jon
Why does the locomotive have white wall tires? Does it serve a purpose or is it just a cosmetic detail?
Before you start grinding and heating. Are you going to check the top and bottom sealing faces on the surface plate.
Just probing with a feeler gauge. I don't recall if your lapping plate is large enough to lap the faces.
Instead of trying to duplicate the shape of the casting. A sheet of cast iron could be machined . Then the outside detailed with a needle scaler to get rid of the machining Mark's.
Rectangular cross sections and a pattern made of wood like a picture frame with significant draft in either direction from the parting line could me made up on your table saw in an hour. Removing metal in 2022 is far easier than it was in 1890. You have the machines to do it at hand
Can't get that steam chest at O'Reilly's. Lol!
It also looks like your valve rod is also bent. I'm wondering if this part cracking and getting out of line caused that part to get bent.
OR, the bent rod caused the crack, or recrack I should say.
2:41...YOU'RE BUSTED-(!)
Whatever became of the stoker engine repair?
I know you can not tell from just a video but the chest looks reverse able if indeed it is could a new gland be created using the blanked off packing boss and manufacture a new gland box braze up the old damaged boss just a thought thanks for posting
Why isnt there a pivot at the valve to control rod? it has an eccentric in the back, this has to be flexing. that has to be the reason it broke
Love the steam engine videos. What's happening with the restoration of the other steam locomotive you and the others are working on. Last we saw was you were trying to machine the inside of a huge piece that had spray weld applied but the angles were making it difficult ?
Is the strap for the valve bend where the valve rod attaches? If so the may be a root cause for the break in the steam chest.
Keith will make it last. No doubts
the big rod on the valve looks bent
As usual Keith very interesting. I’m curious though where would you get the steam chest cast? That would be interesting as well. Thanks.
changing the studs to a vertical configuration probably doomed this repair, (as doomed as only 25 years on a repair is) having the studs reinforced by the web of the casting would be much more preferable. I would bake that sucker in a oven to 400 degrees before attempting this and then throw it right back in there slowly dropping the temp to nothing over a day
Two thoughts from the depths of my ignorance but...
Since you are of a mind to make casting as a long term solution, wouldn't "now" be the time to do it? Rather than wait on blueprints, has the used piece changed enough in size over time to make that a problem? After you have made you repair, it would seem like the right time to create the mold from the old piece.
Also, when I have done things like tie rod ends on my car, I use a white grease paint pencil to mark threads so it is easy to return things to an exact position without having to count threads. Would that work in this situation?
It's called a snifter valve.
David has more keys than Capt. Kangaroo.
Does he have more keys than Mr Jingaling, Keeper of the Keys?
What ever happened with the stoker steam engine rebuild
At 10:30 if that's a shoulder bolt it should probably be more than finger tight.
@11:16 Are you going to straighten that rod?
Hej ! Vad är det som får drivhjulen att gå lika fort med en cylinder på varge sida
Muggy weld cast iron welding rod!
Would a couple thread dowels increase the tension strength of the packing boss?
Looking at where the rod goes into the steam chest could it be hitting on that packing box on the inside of it causing the cracks to form?
Now that you have it removed, and once you get the repair done. Wouldn't it be wise to take this piece and make a template from it and possibly make a new one for future? It broke twice now technically so, it might be the smart thing to cast a new piece. Great video, cheers :)
Enjoyed the video, love these old engines. Something I wonder about - when repairing cast iron it always seems to be a choice of arc with NiWeld or brazing. Does anyone even think about gas welding with cast iron rods? Back mid 60's when I was in high school I welded two cracked engine blocks. Grind out the crack, Preheat to about 400°, torch weld with 1/4" square cast iron rods, slow cool. The heating and cooling is slow enough you avoid the hard spots & cracking of arc and the "obvious repair" of brazing.
Yes I have done cast iron torch welding like how you mentioned.
Does Clark have enough capacity to pour a new part that large?
Just a question Keith, are the flanges on the drivers getting a bit sharp?
Is there a similar Steam Chest on the other side of the engine that you can take a pattern off ?
Or is that one repaired also ?
It is much easier to consult the original documents than it is to reverse engineer a part especially when you've got a 100+ year old part. This steam chest's counterpart has decades of wear and tear from high pressure steam ( which will eat through through cast iron, as it did in another episode on this locomotive ), corrosion and abrasion, maintenance via machining and boring out of irregular surfaces, field modifications, and other factors in this locomotives history unknown to the current operators.
WHAT E V E R happened to the giant band saw????????
Need a couple of strong young backs to do that heavy lifting.
Ads during your videos?
Fact of YT life, unless you use AdBlocker, the Brave browser or pay YT money every month. Creators get very little of the advertising revenue (shame - where would YT be without them?), hence sponsorship, merch and Patreon - can't blame them for wanting to cover the cost of their time and equipment. I doubt a large percentage earn their living this way.
I don't think such a repair would be allowed in Germany. If only because of the risk of a steam explosion. So I have to make a new one. But if you can take responsibility for soldering with brass it , your turn
I notice that you have been taking on quite a few projects over the last year or so,..could it be time to bring in an apprentice to handle cleaning, scraping, lifting, and some of the projects that do not require your skilled talents? I have been a been a metal shop teacher most of my adult life and have just recently brought on a younger individual that I am training in exchange for help in my shop on weekends, holidays, and thru the summer.
I believe that Keith does have a student that helps out in his shop during breaks at school, I’ve heard his name a bunch but I can’t remember what it is right now.
But you’re right about getting help lifting some of this heavy stuff.
It takes a "MAN" to work on a locomotive!