Related to Tip 5, something newer players do loads: hold their cards close to their chest so they can surprise the GM, out of fear they will be shut down. But by bringing the GM in, they can actually have the world react to the plan properly or - and this is just as important - point out why it doesn’t work based on what the PCs already know, but the players have forgotten/misunderstood.
Personally I think a lot of people also want to surprise their group with things but I feel like you tend to get more mileage if the players are prepped. Keep the characters in the dark, and you don't need to tell the players every detail, but if you say "hey I have a secret in my backstory that I think might bring some fun RP. If you mention X at a good moment we can get that rolling if you want" then a good group will want to play along. There's definitely more subtle ways to do this, but I personally feel like people tend to be way more opposed to just asking for stuff than they should be
not just newer players... but yes, this IS a problem, and it really sucks since it's a problem that creates more problems. some players have a hard time realizing that the DM is a fellow player, and it's his role to help the party succeed, not to TPK them into oblivion.
Oh yes, please, a hundred times this. Work WITH your GM. Not against him. He is here to play with you. At least if it's a good GM and if he's not, get a better one. A good GM wants your character to shine. He wants to give your character the limelight and let him or her succeed. Sure, he will throw a curveball your way, but not to thwart your efforts but more to make your success just so much sweeter. A pushover villain is boring. But besting a villain that seemed unsurmountable is a memorable moment that players will remember for ages. Not to mention as a new player, you often lack the knowledge of the intricate details of the game, and your clever plan may simple fizzle because of something that, in the game world, thwarts that. In Vampire the Masquerade, a lot of characters have access to supernatural speed, strength or sensing beyond the normal, which the NPC would probably have and thwart your plan. Now you're putting the GM in the predicament of either having the NPC conveniently "forget" that they have access to these things or to simply curb stomp your clever plan, which is not fun for anyone. And I mean either decision. Work with your GM. You're all in this for the same reason, to create a great and exciting game. Playing the secret game, you could possibly find a flaw in the GMs plot that allows you to easily solve it, or you may spectacularly fail because there's something in the game world you didn't think of. Neither creates an exciting story. Either the GM's plot falls apart because you easily defeat his villain in an anticlimactic pushover or your character dies pointlessly while attempting something that could never succeed. Neither is fun.
This! Sometimes an adversarial player/GM relationship can simply start as an innocent assumption, but such a competitive mindset creates only harm, no good.
I wonder if improv actors struggle with the same issue. It seems like if a player is trying to embody their character, that makes it easier to naturally react as that character, but it also puts blinders on to the meta level where the players are all sitting around a table or on a stage, coming together to create something mutually enjoyable. A writerly or directorial perspective on the other hand, understands the character but is also more mindful of the meta levels in which they exist: the dramatic tension, pacing, other characters and (in this case) creative collaborators who are also sitting around that table or sharing that stage.
One of the interesting things I have noticed is that when you play a game it is different then watching a group play, especially a group that is playing the game to entertain other people and not just themselves.
THIS! One of the big things with streamed games is they're not 100% real. Yes, they're really playing, and really having fun, but they're also aware of the camera/microphone. There's always the little voice in the back of their mind that reminds them, "Is this good television?" It changes how they play, even subtly. They're not just performing for each other but also the audience. They're aware of things like Dead Air, or how the audience my react to something, which alters how they play. It's worse if there's real money involved. If you're in one of those successful Actual Plays and everyone around the table is making $2,000+ an episode, having a player be a jerk is a different matter than if it's a normal group. It's not just hurting the rest of the group's fun, but now their livelihood.
Not wanting to insult them (the guys playing D&D online for an audience) but in a way it's TTRPG-porn. Hear me out: The play might not be scripted - but the focus of the play is to look maximally good to others. Which means often long DM monologues, more exposition than neccessary (for the players)... So not only it's different for an audience to watch others play - they play differently than they would to enjoy themselves. Doesn't mean they don't have fun - I believe they do. But the main problem is: they play to impress, to let it look as cool as possible. They are professional voice actors and have a budget for minis and dungeons bordering a small countries GDP. And - here's the porn-comparision: you might try, but you likely will fail in emulating Critical Role - and you might feel that you've done something wrong, because your table wasn't as cool and memorable as this show was.
@@robertnett9793 critical role is drawing audiences on a regular basis that are bigger then most conventional tv and streaming service shows. But also it's not anything like a game people play at home - it's close to a pure form of entertainment.
@@martinbowman1993 Jup. As I said. And the main point for people, is to not forget that and accept that their game won't be like CR. I have played with people who did forget that. And where unsurprisingly dissatisfacted, because the game was less good than it 'ought to be'...
practice and experience. Me, I have a good enough memory to pick when someone else doesn't mention parts of spells they're trying to use. A few players hated that. And could tell the GM where in the book to go to for some rules.
For our group, I jokingly call myself the rules lawer. Because the GM knows if I don't know the rule, I can find it fast and usually have a rough idea of how it interacts with other rules. (of course we still let the GM determine exceptions and such). It helps pacing but also helps me have fun since I like diving into interesting systems and rule interactions
That's the slippery slope of "your fun is wrong". If the rules are how things function and they are adhered to, then that aspect shouldn't be any trouble. If the players are getting along and actually playing together, collaboratively, sharing (in) the fun, then that aspect shouldn't be any trouble. Some players get stuck in a rut, they learned a certain way or otherwise may have been in selfish groups and then became selfish themselves. So for them, they'll either be open to change - inspired by videos such as these, or, they'll dismiss it and not change their ways.
Pro athletes never stop training and learning from coaches, peers, and outside methods. Successful professionals who work with their brain are always taking classes, reading new information, and learning from others in their profession.
This should be required watching for all players. A lot of people are told to "think about the group" which all of this falls under, but they just can't seem to apply that to situations without a little help. A few games I was in would've been fine, or at least better than they were, if everyone was trying to follow these rules.
I feel this with a lot of videos of Seth's, and many other people. I can't speak for others, but from my lifetime of tabletop games I... can't think of anyone who goes out of there way to watch these videos that I have played with. I know plenty of people who enjoy playing, but something like watching youtube content to be a better player will never even enter their thought process. I watch these videos because I find them entertaining, but I feel like they don't really help that much. I can be a better player/GM, but like Seth mentions, it's a group effort. This may just be my negative perception. I could share these videos with people, but I just know no one would watch them.
This reinforces how everyone in my current group is an amazing player. We all have our faults to be sure, but I have a player who always jumps to help find a rule when the DM is having trouble cause he's got his book/computer tabs open to the DnD info always. I have a player who knows everyone's skills as well as they do and they're fast to suggest the right person for the job, and my team LOVES to go over plans before they enact. I admit, when I'm the player who goes hot-head and fires off, they're the ones who stop me and remind me "No, we talk first, THEN act". I love my Table Top group
Commit to having fun changed my life a little bit. You could match it with mind over matter, the jedi force, millions of corporation dollars spent on office motivation and personal wellness courses, mindfulness, stoicism, spending time around the right people, getting over depression, getting over yourself, helping others, and being motivated to make small progress steps and so on. Play is learning as a child, and learning is fun, being open minded is fun, and it makes it easier to feel fulfilled and content with oneself.
I got thrown out of a game once for tip number 3. Friend was first time DMing and invited a bunch of his friends who had never played before, asked me along to make sure he fould have access to someone more familiar with the rules. Built a completely OP character, then realized I didn't want to steal the spotlight, or the fun, from these new guys. Told the DM i was going to bring a less optimized character so it would be easier, for him as a first timer, to balance encounters for our party. Took it as an insult that i thought he needed it to be easier and tossed me out.
On the one hand I really wish I had this kind of advice when I was a teenager. On the other hand, would I have been mature enough to actually listen to advice like this then? I remember how cool and clever and edgy it seemed to be disruptive to the GM's plans and tone, and the other players too. Of course I now see how much more fun I and everyone else would have had if I'd been trying to play collaboratively - setting up other players, backing their hero moves, and using roleplaying to emphasis the drama or humour in other players' or the GMs moments. And yeah. Embracing failure as the heartwood of what makes games memorable.
Every player should be a vice gm then. Why wouldn’t folk want to help? This is kinda a blind spot for me and would love to understand why folk wouldn’t be inclined to do so.
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus Game rules are not easy for most people to understand. Only a person who is confident in their ability to accurately interpret the rules are going to be comfortable with that kind of duty. They don't wanna be responsible for doing something "incorrectly." Most people just wanna play the game and leave the rules to other people, this is the same for all Table Top Games not just D&D.
Something alot of players forget is Tip 1. They make a character clearly meant to act alone rather than work as a team. Hence why I always make my character a support/leader/healer role. In relation to Tip 5, make sure you're not backseat GMing. Being a near permanent GM myself, my first instinct when the GM asks a question is to assist. Usually it's something like "I would rule it like (X), but I'm not the GM, so you do it however you think is fair."
Yep. But it also may come out when your GM has a bad day, or isn't up to the task of delivering decent experience. Having background as a GM of Warhammer, Werewolf: the Apocalypse and Vampire: the Masquerade I was expecting from others something on the same level as mine. Expectations are one thing and having a real talent for something is absolutely a different thing. One of the talents good GMs have is making stuff up on the fly. Be it something terrifying, annoying, or hilarious. Doesn't matter. You either have it or you don't. For some it is inborn, for others acquired.
Yeah, this would be the big worry for me, as I'm sure I've backseat DM'd before. It helps to have the DM appoint a rules guardian -- I have one at my table, and will point to her when a player asks a question I don't know off the top of my head.
This is why Seth's is my #1 channel for RPG philosophy, he gets it, and he articulates it in an easily relatable way. It is like JFK's: "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country". Replace "country" with "table", "GM", and "fellow players".
@@Arcahnslight Usually, blue hair people are the more intelligent and such. Problem is that intelligence brings awareness of world's problems, which often results in the intelligent person trying to improve the world, which makes people who are less intelligent and don't know to doubt their reality, and people who are intelligent, but benefit from world's problems, dislike such intelligent people. Kinda like how many people hate climate activists who scream about climate change, but if you know what is the current scientific stance on climate change, then you would realize that their behavior is actually rational - science predicts catastrophic harm and also states that many deadlines for change have already passed. Most people just pretend like everything is alright, being angry at those, who break the illusion and show them the harsh reality. Meanwhile, others simply profit from stuff which causes climate change, so they oppose climate activists. Doesn't help that said others are also usually rich enough to avoid most of the harm personally.
So many good suggestions. And yes, the _Lone Wolf_ character archetype is great in stories, but can be disruptive in games. My main PC has lone wolf tendencies due to trust issues, but rather than disrupt the game, the GM and I narratively handle those activities off-screen - either as a simple roll, short story, or quick discussion. Then we deal with the results in-game with the other characters. For example, they went out playing the vigilante and gathering resources. In-game, that could have taken ages and left players out in the cold. Instead, we resolved it with a quick roll and off-screen discussion before the session. Then when the session started, I relayed what the PC discovered, got admonished by the other characters for being reckless, and moved the shared narrative forward.
There is a lot of content missing, because we can't see your hands. You use your hands when you talk, so you should include them in the frame. See the difference between the first "7 game master sins" and this one? The first one had a better frame. Closer isn't always better - especially when you talk of lofty subjects that needs hands to communicate! :) Much love. Your content is amazing. I would not nitpick if I didn't care.
I really enjoyed this video. Sadly, for my group it comes to late, we have today lost a player, who didn't feel welcome anymore. And that is a point that should be added here: Because it is a group game, it is not enough to have just ONE great player. For example, you may try to embrace and laugh about your failures as recommended in point 8, but it will do nothing, if your attitude is missunderstood or missinterpreted as being a silly clown. You end up with a group, that doesn't laugh with you or even worse will laugh about you. Sometimes, it is not your fault and in that case, it is alright to leave. "The most pious man may not live in peace if it does not please his wicked neighbour." Sadly, I failed to be a good fellow player and allowed animosity to win by saying nothing...
Rolling with the failures is the best thing to do. Seth is spot-on with that one. Also, having players that check each other's bad behavior is great, so long as it is even and fair. One player always checking another, but not checking other players who behave badly, is inappropriate.
This is so relevant! My friend and I have been roleplaying for over 20 years and have both noticed a significant decline in the quality of players. When we were young gamers we were so passionate about the campaigns - we would obsess over the game between sessions, write notes, talk about the world lore like it was a real place, remember the names of NPC's and stores, etc. These days it feels like a success just to get the players to remember to bring their character sheet. We've both been playing with many new players and groups and it's frustratingly rare to meet players who pay attention and seem invested in the game. Most of the time as DM's we feel like we're doing 90% of the work.
Many of the most recent crop of gamers joined in because they were greatly entertained by watching a group online or in person. Unfortunately, they unconsciously still want to be entertained instead of play since the entertainment was the original draw. Since they're not aware of this themselves, they don't know that their lack of action seems like lack of interest.
That's the conclusion we've come to as well. Too many video games, movies and streaming - they get hand fed entertainment so often that they don't know how to use their imagination. It's much harder to hold their attention. @@davidtauriainen9116
I feel like I've been waiting for this video for 4+ years! I even thought about starting my own YT channel to talk about it. So many videos are focused on "how to be a great player (from the DM's perspective, for the DM)" but there aren't many on "How to be a great player (for your fellow players)." I feel like this is the first one I've seen in my 6 years of consuming a ton of at-the-table content on YT, to be honest. Thank you for sharing this!
I've only ever been in 1 game and was the DM, I remember having to adapt "Lost Mines of Phandelver" for 3 players and so I set out a few twists giving players options and even allowing them to gain the support of the bugbear and Goblins to fight the big bad and then they walked off with the Gold and the Goblins got their land back, and yes I drew inspiration from the repeats of Gunsmoke I watched when I was little even to the point of having an NPC sing a drunk rendition of "Buffalo Elves". And even had a failed dice roll not lead to combat but intensifying the argument until a success resolved the encounter. Since everyone was enjoying themselves it seemed okay.
I've done various games with different groups. Been playing with the How We Roll podcast for a couple years (Just wrapped the 3rd adventure of Flotsam and Jetsam with them). Currently recording Season 2 of Voyagers of the Jump with Glass Cannon (you can watch Season 1 on their UA-cam channel). Speaking of Glass Cannon, I have the 2 part of our playthrough of Intimate Encounters I did with them on my channel ua-cam.com/video/_At7co34pyg/v-deo.html
Thanks@@SSkorkowsky ! Been a big fan of yours for years now. Out of all RPG tips/philosophy channels yours is hands-down the best. I agree whole-heartedly with your ideas and concepts for running and playing TTRPGs; and many times you have helped this Forever-GM see things from a player's side that i hadn't considered before. Whether it has made much of an impact on my games might be debatable... my group is pretty wild most the time, lol. Often i feel like im just trying to control the chaos to a minimum. If we arent doing something along the lines of murderhobo the players often get very bored of the game. I often want more from my games than what the players are willing to work for, but it wasnt until i saw your an old video of yours that discussed 'knowing your group' that i really sat down and considered who i was writing for. Writing for yourself only sets you up for disappointment and resentment. I started having more fun when i didnt try to tell an elaborate story or used something that hinged on small details. So, let me say it again, thank you Seth.
Don't overdo aiming the spotlight either. It's easy to make a false assumption what the other player might want their character to do and by aiming the spotlight forcing them into doing something they actually didn't want to.
Set it up like a volleyball match, bounce it around a bit. All are there to participate? Then it shouldn't be a problem. Even if that character mechanically has nothing, the player can still participate through that character in whatever way that fits the scene, even if it's just their trademarked catchphrase. As a *game* there should be some challenge to it. Its not just rolling to hit your target. Challenging one's roleplaying game skills is the meat of it and how one improves.
These are more than just tips, they are practically essentials to the game. I'm currently playing in a PbP game where the GM is actively discouraging out-of-character discussion for the sake of "immersion." Making all of our plans in-game is slow and has led to some undeserved tension as characters naturally react to each other. Granted, it's probably how the characters WOULD have discussed plans, but those things are better left in the abstract. The players don't need to pantomime disagreements.
I think I'd shoot for "no matter what happens, I'm going to try to get everyone at the table to have fun" myself. And that definitely includes the GM. Nobody should walk away from a game feeling like they'd been working.
I've been doing it a long time (TTRPGs) and I got to a place where literally no game was good enough for me and I was analyzing everything and finding it wanting. But then I watched Seth's video where he talked about using this mantra and once I could actually absorb it, it really changed things for me.
I'll admit I struggle a lot on #8. In RP moments I like to think I can roll with the punches but it's a little different in combat. In a Lancer game I couldn't hit anything for what felt like 4 or 5 turns, just absolutely incapable of doing anything and I don't really know how to make that not feel awful
This is a bit of related complaint to 'talk about your plan', because the one player who can't talk about their plan is the GM. as a DM I hate running enemies with Immunities, because inevitably one of my players will try to do something and then I have to go 'That doesn't work' and then they act like I'm cheating or I'm forgetting the 'yes and' rule. Condition immunities especially, one of my NPCs had Immutable Form and one of my players planned to cast Polymorph on him, so I had to say he can't do that, only to be saddled with a pouter for the rest of the session. It's not a problem player issue though, it's just that as a GM/DM you are completely forced to do some of the things that current commonly circulating wisdom dictates a Player shouldn't do: Withhold Information. GMs shouldn't and can't reveal everything, they need to keep back some of their knowledge or else they risk giving the players all the solutions.
Assisting with finding rules is invaluable! Trying to find a specific rule when everyone is waiting is one of the most stressful thing I've had to deal with in a damn long time. Sure, you can often do a quick ruling with what seams reasonable and work out the specifics later, but there are times when that just isn't possible. After one such situation I bought the digital version of the rules and put the document on my laptop and a couple of old tablets. It also solved the problem with players not knowing the rules.
Ah, there's a list I can agree with 100%! It's also funny because one time I had the very situation you described in "Discuss your plan" where a player was getting tired of all the planning about how to infiltrate or attack the small enemy stronghold and just walked up to the wooden fort and yelled a challenge. Things didn't go well. I'm very thankful that the vast majority of people I've been playing with nowadays fit all of your points (and I do too, of course). Aiming the spotlight has been one of my favorite things to do for a long time. Having it is fun when it entertains everyone, but aiming it leads to being entertained which is also great. And hey, embracing failure? Actually great life advice as well. There are a lot of things we can't control in life besides dice rolls, and while we can't really control how we feel, we *can* control how we react to events, and that has a large role to play in happiness.
With a lot of the things addressed about Keepers and Players, a great example is a channel called Viva La Dirt League D&D. Just watching them play has woken me up to most of Seth's lessons. Accountability and a little free reign for the Players to be silly and themselves is awesome to see! Seth, you're on fire with these lessons! Keep them coming!
I feel like for the most part, this is an enjoyable rehash of the social contract point focusing on the players… not complaining about getting a new video
In my Rolemaster games we always had a player that was the accountant for all the combatants statuses. Great guy who became an economist and monetizer for video games afterwards.
For Assist the GM, what I actually like to do as the GM is delegate the most rules-lawyery player to help them out. Really helps relieve mental strain.
A great one, Mr. Skorkowsky. I only wish it had come out years ago and taught former players of mine to be better players. They all thought it was about having the strongest character stats and the best loot.
My GM constantly isn't neutral, everything you want to do will be significantly easier/harder depending on how he wants the situation to play out rather than how difficult a task or how good an idea is. If you thinks a frontal assault will be the most fun then all ideas that don't lead to that are going to be incredibly hard with little to no reward if not impossible altogether. If he wants a bad guy to get away then the planets will align and nothing you do or no amount of dice luck or resources spent is likely to stop that from happening. If he wants a foot chase then your car is gonna get disabled, all other vehicles will be locked and normal citizens are going to risk their lives to fight multiple armed men for their Ford Pinto. I understand that sometimes things need to be engineered but its to the point where I have stopped trying to think of what makes sense and instead trying to figure out what he wants us to do.
I've gotten a lot of players from bad GMs I freaking love the moment they realize I'm not there to kill their characters, and the other players aren't their enemies. When they start opening up about their plans and helping other players and having fun it's just the best.
One of my personal bits of advice I give people trying to DM the first time is to remember "Natural 20's make great moments, but Natural 1's make the best stories." Hearing you basically echo that sentiment warmed my cockles. Just in my last campaign alone I ended up with a Fighter who now looks at a flight of stairs as a life threatening event, and a Paladin whose real life player can't look at Lime Jello without getting the giggles.
A friend's Paladin tossed his two handed sword on so many Nat 1's that when we played in the same fame world years later, his character had created a fighting style around throwing greatswords. I can't remember a single Nat 20 from that campaign.
the discuss your plain part also works really well if your out of ideas or your about to do the "it's what my character would do" moments. a good example of this is when jocat dmed a game and one of the players was out of ideas and going into "its what my character would do" moment so he spoke out o character with everyone and i forgot who but one of the others said to the extent 'this gives me an idea do it' and that person stopped the other person in a way that didn't break character for ether of them, no feelings were hurt, and it was a great moment in the game.
As always, great video Seth! Thank your for taking the time and energy to make this! Another great mindset is: I'm going to this session to have a good time. There's a game that I'm in every other week that we started playing in june of 2021. There have been highs and lows and it was also or GM's first time game mastering, so committing, as we all did in our first game(s), many game master sins. Overall, hes done a great job making a great game that we all enjoy! There was a, like, 8 game streak which lasted for months where I was not having fun in the game. I had missed the previous 3 sessions due to a temporary change in my work hours and they had been apparently very critical for the direction of the game, because when I came back, we were a third of the way accross the continet, doing an espionage mission that lasted for months. My character is the groups tank and has pretty bad social and sneaking skills (CHA is my dump stat haha) About 2 months in, I realized I was not having fun and was bringing down the whole game, as I wasnt really RPing, was just going along with the group, but not contributing, and genrally not being the player I wanted to be. Around session 4 we had a session that just absolutely dragged, to the point the gm said a few weeks after the session to his brother and me how boring it was for him to run. I remember having the thought of "I'm in this game because I want to have fun with my buddies and I'm gonna make the most of the 3 hours" and that really made a difference. After the first session with that new Mindset, it was like a flip was switched and I realized I was having fun for the first time in months. That was about a year ago and it doesn't matter which side of the screen I'm on, I always start each session with that same thought of "I'm going to have fun".
I consider it part of player mindset too, when you have a player that takes every scrap of info/knowledge you give them - and then sits on it. Hoarding information is a game killer as much as tossing scalding tea in the face of the Baron (= Information is for the group as a whole, which is sometimes given to a single player due to circumstances. Watching them hide it is incredibly frustrating for me as a GM
+1 to openly warning people when your character is considering something rash. You can even suggest how to avoid it! I hate making a scene IRL and was struggling with this until I realised I can just tell the table "hey, my gith suspects this person is tadpoled and pulling out her knife to stab them unless someone starts talking to them or making a plan". Nine times out of ten the party face jumps in or another character points out the consequences to give mine an excuse to hold back. Plus, even if they don't you can still walk it back at this point too whereas if you'd just done it, you'd be in retcon territory to fix it.
I the last D&D 4Ed game I was playing I was a druid and there was an Undead revenant cleric of The Raven Queen (goddess of Death). I selected for my destiny path the Keeper of the Everflow. It felt like an appropriate destiny for a Druid that had ties to Nature, Shadow realm and Elemental powers. It also felt like a concept I understood Personally and could role play. I had completely missed that it was directly opposed to The Raven Queen. In the end that character and I worked together under some tension, to fight the bigger World Changing threat. We both knew that we were going to have to face each other in the long run though if we survived. We used it as an opportunity to role paly. But I recognize that in other groups it could have become a campaign ending thing.
Hey, one of my suggestions made it into the video! Yay! I was one of several that mentioned "playing around your failures", and learning to take the bad rolls and still get fun gameplay out of them. :)
Good and helpful vid, as usual. And ever seeing that comment ages back from someone saying they always say 'Hi Seth!' back at the start of the videos, I find myself automatically responding in my head as well. *shakes fist*
Left a group because i wanted to discuss alternatives or remedies to avoid my character's upcoming actions based on what was happening. The group chat was silent for the whole week until game night. The players just threated to kill me if i attacked the goblins. Id rather them have been adults and just talked to me and told me of there was a problem.
Awesome tips!! Taking the time to set the Intention for myself+players to have a good time together has definitely shifted the sessions I run in a positive direction. This is a great practice for anything in life, not just running RPGs.
Great advice as always. I had a player who was great at keeping the players together or getting players involved in the game at the table in a very in-character kind of away and I loved her! She was so helpful to me. One thing I loved about being in theater or playing or running a game is that I always leave my real life at the door. For a few hours, at least, I'm not me but someone else and if I'm having a bad day, I get to let it all go. I love this advice. "The best stories come out of failures." Truth! I love Embrace Failure. Best advice of all. Thanks for this video. Great fun and great advice.
Great video! Any DM knows that a good player is someone that is effortless to play alongside and not the one with the wildest mastery of any system or perfect roleplaying.
An random thought - in 5e I sometimes try to use information gathering spells to give the GM a chance to provide either some color or nudge our party; especially if there are multiple ways forward.
You have been Slacking, Seth. It used to be, in the old days, that character death was inevitable. So my players would Meta the f**k out of what I had prepared. Because there were only so many modules published, they could pick and choose what to do at any given time. The only answer back then was a randomly generated dungeon. OR a published work that I got before my players did OR a scenario that I wrote. SO I began writing scenarios.
I've enjoyed your videos over the years, but this one was especially well timed. I have a game with an organized play group tonight and was feeling down and thinking of bowing out... but the advice about deciding to leave your frustrations IRL out of the game helped. Too, I like playing support characters and helping the group out, so a lot of this advice is about things I should already have been thinking of. Always appreciate your videos, thanks for all the work you put into them! My 2 coppers on this ;)
I'm proud to say that my players are rather decent thanks to all of the Philosophy i picked up from Seth. I'm proud to watch this video and not think "oh yeah that's that one player exactly", and actually know that all my players do all of the good things mentioned in the video 🫀 Our group had to undergo a few changes before we reached this point though. I had to let go of the 2 players in the past, and test myself by GMing some other group with which we really didn't mesh well.
Love the video, love the shirt! :) Looking forward to the next part! This is a great companion to your "Awesome player traits" which I'm also a big fan of! :)
Glad to see the tip about talking to other players about a plan or a "devsive moment" to avoid causing an argument, both in and out and of game. between your tip video for keeping in character grudges in character, and the runesmiths recent video about having an out character discussion when said moment happens, to help find a resolution all the PLAYERS are ok with. its a good lesson for ttrpg players. Especially as you said bringing in the other players can help refine a good plan or atleadt help them understand "character is trying to do x because y" rather then just setting the game on fire and excusing it with the much hated "its what my character would do."
First off I love this and whole heartedly believe in it. Your suggestion for giving a nudge to players who keep interrupting really resonated. One of my current groups is a purely on line group for geographic reasons, but we have found that the dynamic is different because of this. Body language has a lot less to play in conversations, and the fractional lag means that interruptions can be quite a problem. Only having the one forum for conversations also means asking them to hold off a minute actually interrupts just as badly. I'm sure there are other subtle nuances to playing over the web as opposed to in person. Have you any tips that could apply to on line gaming as this is definitely a significant format now, but also seems to need it's own behaviour protocols?
Great video. I've been thinking a lot about how tables sometimes (often?) don't seem to realize that they are playing a group game and rather treat it like a solo game that just happens to have other people present. A lot of discussion about TTRPGs, especially online, focus only on individual aspects like character creation, creating interesting backstories, GM advice for running or creating campaigns. There's very little focus on the group dynamics, which is really the big thing that makes or breaks a great game! Thanks for talking about it, your perspective is always great.
There is so much pressure on what the dm needs to do great so its great to have some guidance in what is appriciated on the player side of the table. Thanks Seth! The more who speak about this topic the better.
When I think about my hobby roleplaying, it is really very democratic, and I am glad. When we sit around the gaming table here at my house, at least a few of us, everyone actually has to adapt to the others and their needs to a certain degree. Sure, you can be disloyal, selfish and constantly be a real nuisance to the other players, but sooner or later this will backfire on the person who behaves like that, in the end it becomes too much. Why? Well, because the game we play is not about winning, but about solving tasks together. It's after all called taking part in an adventure - together. The adventure with its unknown background the players find out over time, as well as its enemies, the difficulties and the opposition to the players' characters, I as the gamemaster am responsible for. As everyone knows the GM is the one who shows, explains and counterplays all kinds of encounters that the players' characters may encounter. Like for example. the snooty librarian when they come in to look up important information in the esoteric part of the shelves at the City Library, or the suspicious police when they arrive and wonder why the player characters are standing in a group late at night outside an abandoned building near the cemetery, or the lawyer who reports them for trespassing on private land, and of course the burglars who work for the shady mayor and definitely the armed cultists who have surrounded the player characters in the forest at night, where they have long been haunted by something else, something unspeakable. Roleplaying is often an exciting hobby and most definitely when all players "lend themselves" to risks, open themselves up to dangerous joint decisions - which can sometimes suddenly contain spontaneous humor or fantastic places and surprising encounters - that are the times when roleplaying is at its most fun! If you as a player in these situations always only think about yourself and your survival, then it very quickly becomes monotonous and you notice that the other players do not seek to ask or help the person who does this. In my almost forty years as a gamemaster, I have also noticed that IF the players dare to risk the well-being and put their own characters in harms way and help others even if they play characters who are often not very good in a combat situation, but who are still willing to help the group - it pays off. The players who behave like this usually have a greater chance of survival, of sharing in the successes and of getting the others to automatically come to the rescue, no questions asked, while those who drive hard and take advantage of the situation and the others for their own success do not become popular, even if they can survive for a long time, but are then experienced as a kind of parasites and thereby do not become a welcome part of the game. This means that they are excluded more often. That why I really like the fact that roleplaying is a democratic process, at least in our group.
I love the part about 'embracing failure.' I started doing that with the last game. Instead of dreading a botch roll I call them 'fun rolls.' Whenever I'm trying to do something heroic, but the dice have other plans I'll tell the other players 'well seems I'm not the hero of this game.' As the tank/striker type I'll then turn to the martial artists / bard character and say 'you got this, I'm out.'
Depends on the tone of the game though. If it's more serious, it's hard to embrace failure, because failure might have real consequences for the characters, and acting like it doesn't affect them would be out of character, which in turn might make them act in a way that is more sour.
I would add engage with the rules. Role playing games are games, and games have rules. If you refuse to learn and use those rules, then don't be surprised when your character doesn't contribute much to the game.
What really makes me sad is more often than not, no matter what character I try to make, I end up with the damn spotlight because the other players just don't want to take the lead. I try so much to let other lead a scene or ask what they think on situations, or get them involved, and usually met with "Uuuuh....not sure" or the like :(
An idea I had: a Bad Mood game. The RPG equivalent of hitting "quicksave" after Nazeem has talked down to you, again, in Whiterun, and just going full murderhobo on the town for a few minutes before reloading back and continuing on as if nothing happened. Basically, a blow off some steam, non-canonical, let's just kill the crap out of a bunch of low threat enemies for a bit.
Doubling down on the "assist the GM" point. Sometimes it's as simple as running the initiative tracker for them or covering their pizza, sometimes it's more involved like emailing everyone a synopsis of last session's events the day before you're going to play or volunteering to provide miniatures from your collection. There's always something you can do to help out, and with any luck they'll pay it back when it's your turn to run.
I find it amusing that a lot of the training I am forced to do at work, mostly related to teamwork, is essentially the same advice as for running a successful ttrpg. A lot of it seems dangerously close to stating the bloody obvious, but apparently there are people who need to hear it. I say that, but I have found areas where I had an unnoticed weakness that I had to work on, such as actually listening to what dames are saying. And not calling them dames.
I need to give word warning on first tip "AIM THE SPOTLIGHT" If done wrong, this can backfire bad. I have been at tables where another player will just tell me to do it. Aiming the spotlight is doing something that inspires the other player and puts out something for another to freely act on. Dont just go "Dweebles, make an interrogation check for us" I consider doing that the skillcheck person of a heal bot. IE where the other player is being treated as somebody solely to facilitate you in what you want to do.
Discussion is a key point. We are playing masks and one of the characters tipped off the owner of the spice shop we were there ransacking her place. Then said he can’t play anymore, this put everyone in a bad spot and now we are wanted by the cops for murder and arson. Not sure how se are to pick up the pieces after this fiasco
Great work as usual. Can I ask where you get these great b&w 50s style photos? I think these would work in some of my corporate presentation. Assuming you don’t mind sharing. Ok if you don’t 😅
Related to Tip 5, something newer players do loads: hold their cards close to their chest so they can surprise the GM, out of fear they will be shut down. But by bringing the GM in, they can actually have the world react to the plan properly or - and this is just as important - point out why it doesn’t work based on what the PCs already know, but the players have forgotten/misunderstood.
Personally I think a lot of people also want to surprise their group with things but I feel like you tend to get more mileage if the players are prepped. Keep the characters in the dark, and you don't need to tell the players every detail, but if you say "hey I have a secret in my backstory that I think might bring some fun RP. If you mention X at a good moment we can get that rolling if you want" then a good group will want to play along. There's definitely more subtle ways to do this, but I personally feel like people tend to be way more opposed to just asking for stuff than they should be
not just newer players... but yes, this IS a problem, and it really sucks since it's a problem that creates more problems. some players have a hard time realizing that the DM is a fellow player, and it's his role to help the party succeed, not to TPK them into oblivion.
Oh yes, please, a hundred times this.
Work WITH your GM. Not against him. He is here to play with you. At least if it's a good GM and if he's not, get a better one.
A good GM wants your character to shine. He wants to give your character the limelight and let him or her succeed. Sure, he will throw a curveball your way, but not to thwart your efforts but more to make your success just so much sweeter. A pushover villain is boring. But besting a villain that seemed unsurmountable is a memorable moment that players will remember for ages.
Not to mention as a new player, you often lack the knowledge of the intricate details of the game, and your clever plan may simple fizzle because of something that, in the game world, thwarts that. In Vampire the Masquerade, a lot of characters have access to supernatural speed, strength or sensing beyond the normal, which the NPC would probably have and thwart your plan. Now you're putting the GM in the predicament of either having the NPC conveniently "forget" that they have access to these things or to simply curb stomp your clever plan, which is not fun for anyone. And I mean either decision.
Work with your GM. You're all in this for the same reason, to create a great and exciting game. Playing the secret game, you could possibly find a flaw in the GMs plot that allows you to easily solve it, or you may spectacularly fail because there's something in the game world you didn't think of. Neither creates an exciting story. Either the GM's plot falls apart because you easily defeat his villain in an anticlimactic pushover or your character dies pointlessly while attempting something that could never succeed.
Neither is fun.
This! Sometimes an adversarial player/GM relationship can simply start as an innocent assumption, but such a competitive mindset creates only harm, no good.
I wonder if improv actors struggle with the same issue. It seems like if a player is trying to embody their character, that makes it easier to naturally react as that character, but it also puts blinders on to the meta level where the players are all sitting around a table or on a stage, coming together to create something mutually enjoyable. A writerly or directorial perspective on the other hand, understands the character but is also more mindful of the meta levels in which they exist: the dramatic tension, pacing, other characters and (in this case) creative collaborators who are also sitting around that table or sharing that stage.
One of the interesting things I have noticed is that when you play a game it is different then watching a group play, especially a group that is playing the game to entertain other people and not just themselves.
THIS! One of the big things with streamed games is they're not 100% real. Yes, they're really playing, and really having fun, but they're also aware of the camera/microphone. There's always the little voice in the back of their mind that reminds them, "Is this good television?" It changes how they play, even subtly. They're not just performing for each other but also the audience. They're aware of things like Dead Air, or how the audience my react to something, which alters how they play. It's worse if there's real money involved. If you're in one of those successful Actual Plays and everyone around the table is making $2,000+ an episode, having a player be a jerk is a different matter than if it's a normal group. It's not just hurting the rest of the group's fun, but now their livelihood.
@@SSkorkowsky That's part of it, but I think it gives an audience a different education in what to expect when they play and how to play.
Not wanting to insult them (the guys playing D&D online for an audience) but in a way it's TTRPG-porn.
Hear me out: The play might not be scripted - but the focus of the play is to look maximally good to others. Which means often long DM monologues, more exposition than neccessary (for the players)...
So not only it's different for an audience to watch others play - they play differently than they would to enjoy themselves. Doesn't mean they don't have fun - I believe they do.
But the main problem is: they play to impress, to let it look as cool as possible. They are professional voice actors and have a budget for minis and dungeons bordering a small countries GDP.
And - here's the porn-comparision: you might try, but you likely will fail in emulating Critical Role - and you might feel that you've done something wrong, because your table wasn't as cool and memorable as this show was.
@@robertnett9793 critical role is drawing audiences on a regular basis that are bigger then most conventional tv and streaming service shows.
But also it's not anything like a game people play at home - it's close to a pure form of entertainment.
@@martinbowman1993 Jup. As I said.
And the main point for people, is to not forget that and accept that their game won't be like CR.
I have played with people who did forget that. And where unsurprisingly dissatisfacted, because the game was less good than it 'ought to be'...
Helping the GM made me learn I have the weird knack to just find correct pages in rule books fast. It got me the nickname second GM.
As a long term GM, we seriously appreciate all you assistant GMs out there.
practice and experience. Me, I have a good enough memory to pick when someone else doesn't mention parts of spells they're trying to use. A few players hated that.
And could tell the GM where in the book to go to for some rules.
For our group, I jokingly call myself the rules lawer. Because the GM knows if I don't know the rule, I can find it fast and usually have a rough idea of how it interacts with other rules. (of course we still let the GM determine exceptions and such). It helps pacing but also helps me have fun since I like diving into interesting systems and rule interactions
These are vital life lessons not just "player" tips.
Sadly, even veteran players with decades of experience need to watch this video. Often. Repeatedly. They should memorize it.
That's the slippery slope of "your fun is wrong". If the rules are how things function and they are adhered to, then that aspect shouldn't be any trouble. If the players are getting along and actually playing together, collaboratively, sharing (in) the fun, then that aspect shouldn't be any trouble.
Some players get stuck in a rut, they learned a certain way or otherwise may have been in selfish groups and then became selfish themselves. So for them, they'll either be open to change - inspired by videos such as these, or, they'll dismiss it and not change their ways.
Pro athletes never stop training and learning from coaches, peers, and outside methods.
Successful professionals who work with their brain are always taking classes, reading new information, and learning from others in their profession.
This should be required watching for all players. A lot of people are told to "think about the group" which all of this falls under, but they just can't seem to apply that to situations without a little help. A few games I was in would've been fine, or at least better than they were, if everyone was trying to follow these rules.
I feel this with a lot of videos of Seth's, and many other people. I can't speak for others, but from my lifetime of tabletop games I... can't think of anyone who goes out of there way to watch these videos that I have played with. I know plenty of people who enjoy playing, but something like watching youtube content to be a better player will never even enter their thought process. I watch these videos because I find them entertaining, but I feel like they don't really help that much. I can be a better player/GM, but like Seth mentions, it's a group effort. This may just be my negative perception. I could share these videos with people, but I just know no one would watch them.
This reinforces how everyone in my current group is an amazing player. We all have our faults to be sure, but I have a player who always jumps to help find a rule when the DM is having trouble cause he's got his book/computer tabs open to the DnD info always. I have a player who knows everyone's skills as well as they do and they're fast to suggest the right person for the job, and my team LOVES to go over plans before they enact. I admit, when I'm the player who goes hot-head and fires off, they're the ones who stop me and remind me "No, we talk first, THEN act". I love my Table Top group
Commit to having fun changed my life a little bit. You could match it with mind over matter, the jedi force, millions of corporation dollars spent on office motivation and personal wellness courses, mindfulness, stoicism, spending time around the right people, getting over depression, getting over yourself, helping others, and being motivated to make small progress steps and so on. Play is learning as a child, and learning is fun, being open minded is fun, and it makes it easier to feel fulfilled and content with oneself.
I got thrown out of a game once for tip number 3. Friend was first time DMing and invited a bunch of his friends who had never played before, asked me along to make sure he fould have access to someone more familiar with the rules. Built a completely OP character, then realized I didn't want to steal the spotlight, or the fun, from these new guys. Told the DM i was going to bring a less optimized character so it would be easier, for him as a first timer, to balance encounters for our party. Took it as an insult that i thought he needed it to be easier and tossed me out.
On the one hand I really wish I had this kind of advice when I was a teenager. On the other hand, would I have been mature enough to actually listen to advice like this then? I remember how cool and clever and edgy it seemed to be disruptive to the GM's plans and tone, and the other players too. Of course I now see how much more fun I and everyone else would have had if I'd been trying to play collaboratively - setting up other players, backing their hero moves, and using roleplaying to emphasis the drama or humour in other players' or the GMs moments. And yeah. Embracing failure as the heartwood of what makes games memorable.
"Nargle Windypants" ? Tough name.
I read book 1 of the Valducan. It was excellent!
These tips are excellent and should be standard for everyone.
The player that helps out the DM at our table is refered to as the Vice DM. Every table should have one.
Every player should be a vice gm then. Why wouldn’t folk want to help? This is kinda a blind spot for me and would love to understand why folk wouldn’t be inclined to do so.
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus Game rules are not easy for most people to understand. Only a person who is confident in their ability to accurately interpret the rules are going to be comfortable with that kind of duty. They don't wanna be responsible for doing something "incorrectly." Most people just wanna play the game and leave the rules to other people, this is the same for all Table Top Games not just D&D.
Something alot of players forget is Tip 1. They make a character clearly meant to act alone rather than work as a team. Hence why I always make my character a support/leader/healer role.
In relation to Tip 5, make sure you're not backseat GMing. Being a near permanent GM myself, my first instinct when the GM asks a question is to assist. Usually it's something like "I would rule it like (X), but I'm not the GM, so you do it however you think is fair."
Yep. But it also may come out when your GM has a bad day, or isn't up to the task of delivering decent experience. Having background as a GM of Warhammer, Werewolf: the Apocalypse and Vampire: the Masquerade I was expecting from others something on the same level as mine. Expectations are one thing and having a real talent for something is absolutely a different thing. One of the talents good GMs have is making stuff up on the fly. Be it something terrifying, annoying, or hilarious. Doesn't matter. You either have it or you don't. For some it is inborn, for others acquired.
Yeah, this would be the big worry for me, as I'm sure I've backseat DM'd before. It helps to have the DM appoint a rules guardian -- I have one at my table, and will point to her when a player asks a question I don't know off the top of my head.
This is why Seth's is my #1 channel for RPG philosophy, he gets it, and he articulates it in an easily relatable way.
It is like JFK's: "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country". Replace "country" with "table", "GM", and "fellow players".
Again, a world of thanks! Awesome video, and what you say about mindset, I feel applies in life as well.
Thank you Seth.
Sincerely,
Alicia from Sweden
Yatta bra! Roleplaying has enhanced my life.
@@samuelbroad11 Thank you so much! And actually the pronunciation is really close, well done! Jätte bra 😊!
of course! J not Y!@@aliciaantoniadis9100
omg for a second I thought Seth died his hair blue! 😝
For a second I thought you were suggesting he died!
Seth is far too intelligent and charming to fall into the blue hair crowd.
@@Arcahnslight Usually, blue hair people are the more intelligent and such. Problem is that intelligence brings awareness of world's problems, which often results in the intelligent person trying to improve the world, which makes people who are less intelligent and don't know to doubt their reality, and people who are intelligent, but benefit from world's problems, dislike such intelligent people.
Kinda like how many people hate climate activists who scream about climate change, but if you know what is the current scientific stance on climate change, then you would realize that their behavior is actually rational - science predicts catastrophic harm and also states that many deadlines for change have already passed.
Most people just pretend like everything is alright, being angry at those, who break the illusion and show them the harsh reality. Meanwhile, others simply profit from stuff which causes climate change, so they oppose climate activists. Doesn't help that said others are also usually rich enough to avoid most of the harm personally.
Great player mindset is often what separates a good game and a great one
So many good suggestions.
And yes, the _Lone Wolf_ character archetype is great in stories, but can be disruptive in games. My main PC has lone wolf tendencies due to trust issues, but rather than disrupt the game, the GM and I narratively handle those activities off-screen - either as a simple roll, short story, or quick discussion. Then we deal with the results in-game with the other characters. For example, they went out playing the vigilante and gathering resources. In-game, that could have taken ages and left players out in the cold. Instead, we resolved it with a quick roll and off-screen discussion before the session. Then when the session started, I relayed what the PC discovered, got admonished by the other characters for being reckless, and moved the shared narrative forward.
There is a lot of content missing, because we can't see your hands. You use your hands when you talk, so you should include them in the frame. See the difference between the first "7 game master sins" and this one? The first one had a better frame. Closer isn't always better - especially when you talk of lofty subjects that needs hands to communicate! :)
Much love. Your content is amazing. I would not nitpick if I didn't care.
I really enjoyed this video. Sadly, for my group it comes to late, we have today lost a player, who didn't feel welcome anymore. And that is a point that should be added here: Because it is a group game, it is not enough to have just ONE great player. For example, you may try to embrace and laugh about your failures as recommended in point 8, but it will do nothing, if your attitude is missunderstood or missinterpreted as being a silly clown. You end up with a group, that doesn't laugh with you or even worse will laugh about you. Sometimes, it is not your fault and in that case, it is alright to leave.
"The most pious man may not live in peace if it does not please his wicked neighbour."
Sadly, I failed to be a good fellow player and allowed animosity to win by saying nothing...
Labor Day off, and Seth has a new video out. Every Monday should be this awesome!
Rolling with the failures is the best thing to do. Seth is spot-on with that one. Also, having players that check each other's bad behavior is great, so long as it is even and fair. One player always checking another, but not checking other players who behave badly, is inappropriate.
This is so relevant! My friend and I have been roleplaying for over 20 years and have both noticed a significant decline in the quality of players. When we were young gamers we were so passionate about the campaigns - we would obsess over the game between sessions, write notes, talk about the world lore like it was a real place, remember the names of NPC's and stores, etc. These days it feels like a success just to get the players to remember to bring their character sheet. We've both been playing with many new players and groups and it's frustratingly rare to meet players who pay attention and seem invested in the game. Most of the time as DM's we feel like we're doing 90% of the work.
Many of the most recent crop of gamers joined in because they were greatly entertained by watching a group online or in person. Unfortunately, they unconsciously still want to be entertained instead of play since the entertainment was the original draw. Since they're not aware of this themselves, they don't know that their lack of action seems like lack of interest.
That's the conclusion we've come to as well. Too many video games, movies and streaming - they get hand fed entertainment so often that they don't know how to use their imagination. It's much harder to hold their attention. @@davidtauriainen9116
@@davidtauriainen9116I'm thinking perhaps computer games have had an influence on that where everything is self centred and laid on for them
I feel like I've been waiting for this video for 4+ years! I even thought about starting my own YT channel to talk about it. So many videos are focused on "how to be a great player (from the DM's perspective, for the DM)" but there aren't many on "How to be a great player (for your fellow players)." I feel like this is the first one I've seen in my 6 years of consuming a ton of at-the-table content on YT, to be honest.
Thank you for sharing this!
Babe wake up new Seth skorkowsky video
I've only ever been in 1 game and was the DM, I remember having to adapt "Lost Mines of Phandelver" for 3 players and so I set out a few twists giving players options and even allowing them to gain the support of the bugbear and Goblins to fight the big bad and then they walked off with the Gold and the Goblins got their land back, and yes I drew inspiration from the repeats of Gunsmoke I watched when I was little even to the point of having an NPC sing a drunk rendition of "Buffalo Elves". And even had a failed dice roll not lead to combat but intensifying the argument until a success resolved the encounter.
Since everyone was enjoying themselves it seemed okay.
Loved watching you play as a guest on some other channels - you really live these ideas!
HE PLAYS IN A GAME ON UA-cam?!?!?! please tell me the channel name, ive been dying to see seth actually play!
I've done various games with different groups. Been playing with the How We Roll podcast for a couple years (Just wrapped the 3rd adventure of Flotsam and Jetsam with them).
Currently recording Season 2 of Voyagers of the Jump with Glass Cannon (you can watch Season 1 on their UA-cam channel).
Speaking of Glass Cannon, I have the 2 part of our playthrough of Intimate Encounters I did with them on my channel ua-cam.com/video/_At7co34pyg/v-deo.html
Thanks@@SSkorkowsky !
Been a big fan of yours for years now. Out of all RPG tips/philosophy channels yours is hands-down the best. I agree whole-heartedly with your ideas and concepts for running and playing TTRPGs; and many times you have helped this Forever-GM see things from a player's side that i hadn't considered before. Whether it has made much of an impact on my games might be debatable... my group is pretty wild most the time, lol. Often i feel like im just trying to control the chaos to a minimum. If we arent doing something along the lines of murderhobo the players often get very bored of the game. I often want more from my games than what the players are willing to work for, but it wasnt until i saw your an old video of yours that discussed 'knowing your group' that i really sat down and considered who i was writing for. Writing for yourself only sets you up for disappointment and resentment. I started having more fun when i didnt try to tell an elaborate story or used something that hinged on small details.
So, let me say it again, thank you Seth.
@@SSkorkowsky Voyagers of the Jump season 2?! Excellent! Season 1 was absolutely fantastic.
Great council.....( Bomb Shell not being counted)
Don't overdo aiming the spotlight either. It's easy to make a false assumption what the other player might want their character to do and by aiming the spotlight forcing them into doing something they actually didn't want to.
Invite, don't order.
Set it up like a volleyball match, bounce it around a bit. All are there to participate? Then it shouldn't be a problem.
Even if that character mechanically has nothing, the player can still participate through that character in whatever way that fits the scene, even if it's just their trademarked catchphrase.
As a *game* there should be some challenge to it. Its not just rolling to hit your target. Challenging one's roleplaying game skills is the meat of it and how one improves.
These are more than just tips, they are practically essentials to the game. I'm currently playing in a PbP game where the GM is actively discouraging out-of-character discussion for the sake of "immersion." Making all of our plans in-game is slow and has led to some undeserved tension as characters naturally react to each other.
Granted, it's probably how the characters WOULD have discussed plans, but those things are better left in the abstract. The players don't need to pantomime disagreements.
For me, "no matter what happens, I'm gonna have fun" is the philosopher' stone of gaming amity. Thanks for putting that one out there Seth.
I think I'd shoot for "no matter what happens, I'm going to try to get everyone at the table to have fun" myself. And that definitely includes the GM. Nobody should walk away from a game feeling like they'd been working.
I've been doing it a long time (TTRPGs) and I got to a place where literally no game was good enough for me and I was analyzing everything and finding it wanting. But then I watched Seth's video where he talked about using this mantra and once I could actually absorb it, it really changed things for me.
I'll admit I struggle a lot on #8. In RP moments I like to think I can roll with the punches but it's a little different in combat. In a Lancer game I couldn't hit anything for what felt like 4 or 5 turns, just absolutely incapable of doing anything and I don't really know how to make that not feel awful
This is a bit of related complaint to 'talk about your plan', because the one player who can't talk about their plan is the GM.
as a DM I hate running enemies with Immunities, because inevitably one of my players will try to do something and then I have to go 'That doesn't work' and then they act like I'm cheating or I'm forgetting the 'yes and' rule.
Condition immunities especially, one of my NPCs had Immutable Form and one of my players planned to cast Polymorph on him, so I had to say he can't do that, only to be saddled with a pouter for the rest of the session.
It's not a problem player issue though, it's just that as a GM/DM you are completely forced to do some of the things that current commonly circulating wisdom dictates a Player shouldn't do: Withhold Information.
GMs shouldn't and can't reveal everything, they need to keep back some of their knowledge or else they risk giving the players all the solutions.
Assisting with finding rules is invaluable! Trying to find a specific rule when everyone is waiting is one of the most stressful thing I've had to deal with in a damn long time. Sure, you can often do a quick ruling with what seams reasonable and work out the specifics later, but there are times when that just isn't possible. After one such situation I bought the digital version of the rules and put the document on my laptop and a couple of old tablets. It also solved the problem with players not knowing the rules.
Ah, there's a list I can agree with 100%!
It's also funny because one time I had the very situation you described in "Discuss your plan" where a player was getting tired of all the planning about how to infiltrate or attack the small enemy stronghold and just walked up to the wooden fort and yelled a challenge. Things didn't go well.
I'm very thankful that the vast majority of people I've been playing with nowadays fit all of your points (and I do too, of course).
Aiming the spotlight has been one of my favorite things to do for a long time. Having it is fun when it entertains everyone, but aiming it leads to being entertained which is also great.
And hey, embracing failure? Actually great life advice as well.
There are a lot of things we can't control in life besides dice rolls, and while we can't really control how we feel, we *can* control how we react to events, and that has a large role to play in happiness.
Always love these videos! Skits are hilarious, and you consistently drop nuggets of wisdom along the way. Looking forward to seeing more!
With a lot of the things addressed about Keepers and Players, a great example is a channel called Viva La Dirt League D&D. Just watching them play has woken me up to most of Seth's lessons. Accountability and a little free reign for the Players to be silly and themselves is awesome to see! Seth, you're on fire with these lessons! Keep them coming!
I feel like for the most part, this is an enjoyable rehash of the social contract point focusing on the players… not complaining about getting a new video
In my Rolemaster games we always had a player that was the accountant for all the combatants statuses. Great guy who became an economist and monetizer for video games afterwards.
For Assist the GM, what I actually like to do as the GM is delegate the most rules-lawyery player to help them out. Really helps relieve mental strain.
Thank you for the video. Commenting for the Algorithm.
A great one, Mr. Skorkowsky. I only wish it had come out years ago and taught former players of mine to be better players. They all thought it was about having the strongest character stats and the best loot.
My GM constantly isn't neutral, everything you want to do will be significantly easier/harder depending on how he wants the situation to play out rather than how difficult a task or how good an idea is. If you thinks a frontal assault will be the most fun then all ideas that don't lead to that are going to be incredibly hard with little to no reward if not impossible altogether. If he wants a bad guy to get away then the planets will align and nothing you do or no amount of dice luck or resources spent is likely to stop that from happening. If he wants a foot chase then your car is gonna get disabled, all other vehicles will be locked and normal citizens are going to risk their lives to fight multiple armed men for their Ford Pinto. I understand that sometimes things need to be engineered but its to the point where I have stopped trying to think of what makes sense and instead trying to figure out what he wants us to do.
I've gotten a lot of players from bad GMs I freaking love the moment they realize I'm not there to kill their characters, and the other players aren't their enemies. When they start opening up about their plans and helping other players and having fun it's just the best.
useful advice for everyone
Brilliant stuff...I've had to deal with game hogs in the past. Sometimes expelling the player is the only remedy.
hey thanks for the help
Really good advice for players. Thanks!
Man, not to toot my own horn, but I feel glad, that most of these are true for me! :D
... And luckily for most of the players I play with too.
One of my personal bits of advice I give people trying to DM the first time is to remember "Natural 20's make great moments, but Natural 1's make the best stories." Hearing you basically echo that sentiment warmed my cockles. Just in my last campaign alone I ended up with a Fighter who now looks at a flight of stairs as a life threatening event, and a Paladin whose real life player can't look at Lime Jello without getting the giggles.
A friend's Paladin tossed his two handed sword on so many Nat 1's that when we played in the same fame world years later, his character had created a fighting style around throwing greatswords. I can't remember a single Nat 20 from that campaign.
the discuss your plain part also works really well if your out of ideas or your about to do the "it's what my character would do" moments. a good example of this is when jocat dmed a game and one of the players was out of ideas and going into "its what my character would do" moment so he spoke out o character with everyone and i forgot who but one of the others said to the extent 'this gives me an idea do it' and that person stopped the other person in a way that didn't break character for ether of them, no feelings were hurt, and it was a great moment in the game.
As always, great video Seth! Thank your for taking the time and energy to make this! Another great mindset is: I'm going to this session to have a good time. There's a game that I'm in every other week that we started playing in june of 2021. There have been highs and lows and it was also or GM's first time game mastering, so committing, as we all did in our first game(s), many game master sins. Overall, hes done a great job making a great game that we all enjoy!
There was a, like, 8 game streak which lasted for months where I was not having fun in the game. I had missed the previous 3 sessions due to a temporary change in my work hours and they had been apparently very critical for the direction of the game, because when I came back, we were a third of the way accross the continet, doing an espionage mission that lasted for months. My character is the groups tank and has pretty bad social and sneaking skills (CHA is my dump stat haha) About 2 months in, I realized I was not having fun and was bringing down the whole game, as I wasnt really RPing, was just going along with the group, but not contributing, and genrally not being the player I wanted to be.
Around session 4 we had a session that just absolutely dragged, to the point the gm said a few weeks after the session to his brother and me how boring it was for him to run. I remember having the thought of "I'm in this game because I want to have fun with my buddies and I'm gonna make the most of the 3 hours" and that really made a difference. After the first session with that new Mindset, it was like a flip was switched and I realized I was having fun for the first time in months. That was about a year ago and it doesn't matter which side of the screen I'm on, I always start each session with that same thought of "I'm going to have fun".
I consider it part of player mindset too, when you have a player that takes every scrap of info/knowledge you give them - and then sits on it.
Hoarding information is a game killer as much as tossing scalding tea in the face of the Baron (=
Information is for the group as a whole, which is sometimes given to a single player due to circumstances. Watching them hide it is incredibly frustrating for me as a GM
Learned something new. I've learned some of these same lessons as both a player and GM, but there's always room for growth, thank you!
+1 to openly warning people when your character is considering something rash. You can even suggest how to avoid it! I hate making a scene IRL and was struggling with this until I realised I can just tell the table "hey, my gith suspects this person is tadpoled and pulling out her knife to stab them unless someone starts talking to them or making a plan". Nine times out of ten the party face jumps in or another character points out the consequences to give mine an excuse to hold back. Plus, even if they don't you can still walk it back at this point too whereas if you'd just done it, you'd be in retcon territory to fix it.
Yep. 100% Great advice! Thanks, Seth!
I the last D&D 4Ed game I was playing I was a druid and there was an Undead revenant cleric of The Raven Queen (goddess of Death). I selected for my destiny path the Keeper of the Everflow. It felt like an appropriate destiny for a Druid that had ties to Nature, Shadow realm and Elemental powers. It also felt like a concept I understood Personally and could role play.
I had completely missed that it was directly opposed to The Raven Queen. In the end that character and I worked together under some tension, to fight the bigger World Changing threat. We both knew that we were going to have to face each other in the long run though if we survived. We used it as an opportunity to role paly. But I recognize that in other groups it could have become a campaign ending thing.
Hey, one of my suggestions made it into the video! Yay! I was one of several that mentioned "playing around your failures", and learning to take the bad rolls and still get fun gameplay out of them. :)
God bless you Seth Skorkowsky!
Good and helpful vid, as usual.
And ever seeing that comment ages back from someone saying they always say 'Hi Seth!' back at the start of the videos, I find myself automatically responding in my head as well. *shakes fist*
Left a group because i wanted to discuss alternatives or remedies to avoid my character's upcoming actions based on what was happening. The group chat was silent for the whole week until game night. The players just threated to kill me if i attacked the goblins.
Id rather them have been adults and just talked to me and told me of there was a problem.
Awesome tips!! Taking the time to set the Intention for myself+players to have a good time together has definitely shifted the sessions I run in a positive direction. This is a great practice for anything in life, not just running RPGs.
Great advice as always. I had a player who was great at keeping the players together or getting players involved in the game at the table in a very in-character kind of away and I loved her! She was so helpful to me.
One thing I loved about being in theater or playing or running a game is that I always leave my real life at the door. For a few hours, at least, I'm not me but someone else and if I'm having a bad day, I get to let it all go. I love this advice.
"The best stories come out of failures." Truth! I love Embrace Failure. Best advice of all.
Thanks for this video. Great fun and great advice.
One of my players is like that, she's the party wrangler (we have a worse word for it at the table) and often takes on leader roles.
@@Gaia_Gaistar Party Wrangler or Player Wrangler was what we called her too, I think. I'd really like to know the worse word though ...
Great video! Any DM knows that a good player is someone that is effortless to play alongside and not the one with the wildest mastery of any system or perfect roleplaying.
An random thought - in 5e I sometimes try to use information gathering spells to give the GM a chance to provide either some color or nudge our party; especially if there are multiple ways forward.
You have been Slacking, Seth. It used to be, in the old days, that character death was inevitable. So my players would Meta the f**k out of what I had prepared. Because there were only so many modules published, they could pick and choose what to do at any given time. The only answer back then was a randomly generated dungeon. OR a published work that I got before my players did OR a scenario that I wrote. SO I began writing scenarios.
I've enjoyed your videos over the years, but this one was especially well timed. I have a game with an organized play group tonight and was feeling down and thinking of bowing out... but the advice about deciding to leave your frustrations IRL out of the game helped. Too, I like playing support characters and helping the group out, so a lot of this advice is about things I should already have been thinking of. Always appreciate your videos, thanks for all the work you put into them! My 2 coppers on this ;)
I'm proud to say that my players are rather decent thanks to all of the Philosophy i picked up from Seth. I'm proud to watch this video and not think "oh yeah that's that one player exactly", and actually know that all my players do all of the good things mentioned in the video 🫀
Our group had to undergo a few changes before we reached this point though. I had to let go of the 2 players in the past, and test myself by GMing some other group with which we really didn't mesh well.
Love the video, love the shirt! :) Looking forward to the next part!
This is a great companion to your "Awesome player traits" which I'm also a big fan of! :)
loving the photo-shopped screens into all these BW photos
Glad to see the tip about talking to other players about a plan or a "devsive moment" to avoid causing an argument, both in and out and of game. between your tip video for keeping in character grudges in character, and the runesmiths recent video about having an out character discussion when said moment happens, to help find a resolution all the PLAYERS are ok with. its a good lesson for ttrpg players. Especially as you said bringing in the other players can help refine a good plan or atleadt help them understand "character is trying to do x because y" rather then just setting the game on fire and excusing it with the much hated "its what my character would do."
Wewt! A new Seth video with coffee...*settles in*
I have not seen anyone say W00T! since Everquest LOL!
First off I love this and whole heartedly believe in it. Your suggestion for giving a nudge to players who keep interrupting really resonated. One of my current groups is a purely on line group for geographic reasons, but we have found that the dynamic is different because of this. Body language has a lot less to play in conversations, and the fractional lag means that interruptions can be quite a problem. Only having the one forum for conversations also means asking them to hold off a minute actually interrupts just as badly. I'm sure there are other subtle nuances to playing over the web as opposed to in person. Have you any tips that could apply to on line gaming as this is definitely a significant format now, but also seems to need it's own behaviour protocols?
Great video. I've been thinking a lot about how tables sometimes (often?) don't seem to realize that they are playing a group game and rather treat it like a solo game that just happens to have other people present. A lot of discussion about TTRPGs, especially online, focus only on individual aspects like character creation, creating interesting backstories, GM advice for running or creating campaigns. There's very little focus on the group dynamics, which is really the big thing that makes or breaks a great game! Thanks for talking about it, your perspective is always great.
There is so much pressure on what the dm needs to do great so its great to have some guidance in what is appriciated on the player side of the table. Thanks Seth! The more who speak about this topic the better.
this is a great video. As awsome as you think you are at the table. These are always good words to live by.
excellent tips, attitude is everything
When I think about my hobby roleplaying, it is really very democratic, and I am glad. When we sit around the gaming table here at my house, at least a few of us, everyone actually has to adapt to the others and their needs to a certain degree. Sure, you can be disloyal, selfish and constantly be a real nuisance to the other players, but sooner or later this will backfire on the person who behaves like that, in the end it becomes too much. Why?
Well, because the game we play is not about winning, but about solving tasks together. It's after all called taking part in an adventure - together. The adventure with its unknown background the players find out over time, as well as its enemies, the difficulties and the opposition to the players' characters, I as the gamemaster am responsible for. As everyone knows the GM is the one who shows, explains and counterplays all kinds of encounters that the players' characters may encounter.
Like for example. the snooty librarian when they come in to look up important information in the esoteric part of the shelves at the City Library, or the suspicious police when they arrive and wonder why the player characters are standing in a group late at night outside an abandoned building near the cemetery, or the lawyer who reports them for trespassing on private land, and of course the burglars who work for the shady mayor and definitely the armed cultists who have surrounded the player characters in the forest at night, where they have long been haunted by something else, something unspeakable.
Roleplaying is often an exciting hobby and most definitely when all players "lend themselves" to risks, open themselves up to dangerous joint decisions - which can sometimes suddenly contain spontaneous humor or fantastic places and surprising encounters - that are the times when roleplaying is at its most fun!
If you as a player in these situations always only think about yourself and your survival, then it very quickly becomes monotonous and you notice that the other players do not seek to ask or help the person who does this. In my almost forty years as a gamemaster, I have also noticed that IF the players dare to risk the well-being and put their own characters in harms way and help others even if they play characters who are often not very good in a combat situation, but who are still willing to help the group - it pays off. The players who behave like this usually have a greater chance of survival, of sharing in the successes and of getting the others to automatically come to the rescue, no questions asked, while those who drive hard and take advantage of the situation and the others for their own success do not become popular, even if they can survive for a long time, but are then experienced as a kind of parasites and thereby do not become a welcome part of the game. This means that they are excluded more often. That why I really like the fact that roleplaying is a democratic process, at least in our group.
I love the part about 'embracing failure.' I started doing that with the last game. Instead of dreading a botch roll I call them 'fun rolls.' Whenever I'm trying to do something heroic, but the dice have other plans I'll tell the other players 'well seems I'm not the hero of this game.' As the tank/striker type I'll then turn to the martial artists / bard character and say 'you got this, I'm out.'
Depends on the tone of the game though.
If it's more serious, it's hard to embrace failure, because failure might have real consequences for the characters, and acting like it doesn't affect them would be out of character, which in turn might make them act in a way that is more sour.
4:03 Immediately thought of the Cyber Punk War Story where Seth blew up the game after the failed ‘bug’ plant. “Pineapple!”
Seth you're awesome! Thank you for another cool video 😊
I would add engage with the rules. Role playing games are games, and games have rules. If you refuse to learn and use those rules, then don't be surprised when your character doesn't contribute much to the game.
embracing the dice is huge, let your character fail, it's OK. The DM is there to interpret it.
Great as always. Thanks Seth.
What really makes me sad is more often than not, no matter what character I try to make, I end up with the damn spotlight because the other players just don't want to take the lead. I try so much to let other lead a scene or ask what they think on situations, or get them involved, and usually met with "Uuuuh....not sure" or the like :(
'I few weeks back i made a video...' Dear mister Skorkowsky, that was months ago!
What? You can't measure time in weeks? Next time I'll say hours.
Travis Willingham; best player I have seen. They are all great though. As are some of the gymnasium students I played with last year.
These are really awesome tips, thanks for sharing!
An idea I had: a Bad Mood game. The RPG equivalent of hitting "quicksave" after Nazeem has talked down to you, again, in Whiterun, and just going full murderhobo on the town for a few minutes before reloading back and continuing on as if nothing happened. Basically, a blow off some steam, non-canonical, let's just kill the crap out of a bunch of low threat enemies for a bit.
Doubling down on the "assist the GM" point. Sometimes it's as simple as running the initiative tracker for them or covering their pizza, sometimes it's more involved like emailing everyone a synopsis of last session's events the day before you're going to play or volunteering to provide miniatures from your collection. There's always something you can do to help out, and with any luck they'll pay it back when it's your turn to run.
Rolls a 1. "Which one you all just kicked me in the face?!"
This is the best thing I ever saw.
I find it amusing that a lot of the training I am forced to do at work, mostly related to teamwork, is essentially the same advice as for running a successful ttrpg. A lot of it seems dangerously close to stating the bloody obvious, but apparently there are people who need to hear it. I say that, but I have found areas where I had an unnoticed weakness that I had to work on, such as actually listening to what dames are saying. And not calling them dames.
I need to give word warning on first tip "AIM THE SPOTLIGHT"
If done wrong, this can backfire bad. I have been at tables where another player will just tell me to do it. Aiming the spotlight is doing something that inspires the other player and puts out something for another to freely act on.
Dont just go "Dweebles, make an interrogation check for us"
I consider doing that the skillcheck person of a heal bot. IE where the other player is being treated as somebody solely to facilitate you in what you want to do.
Tip 1. Sometimes it's not because of the player himself, but because GM is having his favourite player.
Great video!!
Discussion is a key point. We are playing masks and one of the characters tipped off the owner of the spice shop we were there ransacking her place. Then said he can’t play anymore, this put everyone in a bad spot and now we are wanted by the cops for murder and arson. Not sure how se are to pick up the pieces after this fiasco
Todd, bestest playa Eva!!!
Great work as usual. Can I ask where you get these great b&w 50s style photos? I think these would work in some of my corporate presentation. Assuming you don’t mind sharing. Ok if you don’t 😅