As a(n amateur) singer, I was taught that: "you sing an appoggiatura when you feel it sounds good to sing one". That, in most cases, appoggiaturas were not notated in the vocal lines, especially not in recitatives, only facilitates the matter. P.S. In Italian vocal music, appoggiaturas are used to accent words. Knowing the language very well will help the singer decide whether an appoggiatura is required.
Very important topic! I'm a classical pianist and modern time pianists usually don't have a clue about how to play appoggiaturas. They simply never read treatises or investigate in any other way, we have an ongoing tradition of neglecting historic performance practise which has it's root in the tradition of the second half of the 20th century and it's 'greatest' pianists. The biggest problem is how to differentiate between short and long appoggiaturas. The most important example is the figure eight note followed by two sixteenth notes where the eight note has an appoggiatura. It is clearly stated in all the 3 big treatises that this figure is never to be played as 4 sixteenth notes but have you ever heard Turkish March being played in any other way? The whole world knows it in the wrong version.
I’m sorry but that type of figure is clearly meant to be played as 4 semiquavers…They agre on the fact that the notation serves the purpose of preventing the player from adding an appoggiatura himself.
@@corradogiachetta2154 Nope, all the treatises clearly state that it's a short appogiatura. If you can find a historic text that states the opposite, please let me know.
@@TonyBittner-Collins Yes, thank you, I know Wim Winters (for his fraudulent double-beat theory, but never the less ...). In the case of the Turkish March we also know what the Turkish March is, because the same March that Mozart heard in Vienna is still a national March today. Short appogiatura is self-evident here.
If anyone should provide evindence that woluld be you since you claim every fortepianist and harpsichordist is playing that figure incorrectly. IFrom Leopold Mozart's violin treatise( 9th chapter, 3rd section): "The descending appoggiature are of two kinds : namely, the Long and the Short. Of the long there are two kinds, of which one is longer than the other. If the appoggiatura stands before a crotchet, quaver, or semiquaver, it is played as a long appoggiatura and is worth half of the value of the note following it. The appoggiatura is therefore sustained the length of time equivalent to half the note and is slurred smoothly on to it. What the note loses is given to the appoggiatura" He also states that the usage of the short appogiatura is limited to a small number which doesn't include such figure. But if you have some piece of evidence that says otherwise please show me
Thanks! Very interesting video and great explanation. 👍🏼 Lovely instruments and beautiful music, too. 🎼🎶💕 11:47 Really like the ending, but... Vibrato | Perfect Perfect | Perfect
In Russian, the melodic embellishments are called "melisms". "grace notes" are called "vorschlag". "short vorschlag" (crossed - acciaccatura) is performed before beat, by borrowing time from the previous beat. "long vorschlag" (not crossed - appoggiatura) is performed on beat.
Wonderful! But for some of the rules one does think actually why not just write it out in the first place. Particularly that example of the appogiatura on a tied note.
The notation was useful to warn performers that a particular type of expression is required on the appoggiaturas. However CPE Bach and others do recommend that composers actually write them out in big notes to avoid confusion. Other theorists disapproved of this because it sometimes led to performers adding appoggiaturas onto appoggiaturas which - though some musicians though it stylish - wasn’t universally approved of. As time went all appoggiaturas were notated as big notes. It would be perfectly feasible to write out Wagner’s Tristan using old-fashioned appoggiatura notation - I bet it would be an illuminating exercise.
Talk of ornamentation led me to think of something. Do classical guitarists play Fernando Sor correctly? I've heard Sor described as excellent for practice pieces, but musically uninteresting. But the guitar is to a great extent an improvisational instrument, and Sor was a guitarist. So did Sor actually intend for his music to be played as written, or was the musician intended to flesh it out with his own ornamentation?.
I'm afraid the guitar repertoire isn't my area of expertise, but certainly ornamentation was still being practiced when Sor was writing music. Not that everyone approved of it... Berlioz (who, incidentally, was also a guitar player!) wrote scathingly about an oboist ornamenting his Symphonie Fantastique in 1843! Perhaps some historical guitar players might be able to enlighten us further?
Took me quite a while to realize that he was british, and that british people have different names for notes. Also, O thought that these were called grace notes, is this another example of British music being different than American, or is it a jazz term, since I first saw this embellishment in jazz or, is it a different thing all together?
moibastien You’re quite right. Various authorities do assign different executions to these terms. The terminology , as I’m sure you’re aware, is not always consistent and the nomenclature and performance directions are rarely, if ever, clear-cut. The examples chosen in the video were meant to illustrate some possible terms, not to be a definitive list. Including the common “coulé” in a discussion about appoggiaturas is perhaps a borderline case and I regret having chosen that particular term as an example if you find that it confuses the issue. Please forgive me. I’d be genuinely interested to know what you definition of “Appoggiature” is and what sources it is to be found in?
I'd love to hear which particular treatises you are talking about. It's true that I may have missed some important Information by focussing on the big three (Quantz, Bach, & Mozart)!
So you mean when composers write different value notes as little notes? If so, there are indeed many examples of composers specifying the lengths like this, but there was no consistent approach in the Eighteenth Century, much to the annoyance of many theorists then, and performers now!
In the published edition of the Goldberg variations, J.S. Bach took the effort to write out the length values of his Vorschläge (appoggiature), sometimes quaver, sometimes semiquaver, and sometimes even demisemiquaver. He did not, like some other composers, simply write a quaver Vorschlag that could be played with any value. Like his son, C.P.E. Bach wrote in his 1753 treatise: "... man [hat] seit nicht gar langer Zeit angefangen, diese Vorschläge nach ihrer wahren Geltung anzudeuten, anstatt dass man vor diesem alle Vorschläge durch Acht-Theile zu bezeichnen pflegte. Damahls waren die Vorschläge von so verschiedener Geltung noch nicht engeführet." Therefore, when I play this, I always endeavour to play the appogiatura with the length indicated in the notation. The most notable example is how almost all performers insist on playing the second appoggiatura in the second bar as a quaver rather than a semiquaver even though there is no ambiguity about the actual notation written. An exception is Kimiko Ishizaka (found here on UA-cam) playing what's actually written, while almost any other performer you'll find plays it like Glenn Gould there.
Yes indeed, the Goldberg Variations are a very interesting case, and an example of Bach preparing a work for publication late in his life. There are also examples of his using more explicit notation in other works too, though this it is not a uniform feature throughout his compositional output, unfortunately! If you're interested in then I very much recommend reading Colin Booth's book "Did Bach Really Mean That?" www.colinbooth.co.uk/book.html and also his article specifically about grace notes in the Goldberg Variations www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-ornament-article.pdf In his recording of the variations Booth plays both the grace notes in the second bar short and slightly before the beat, after the manner which Quantz describes (see 3:00 in my video). Another excellent recording with the OAE's Steven Devine departs from the Gould model and takes a beautifully nuanced approach to the graces in the second bar. The very fact that even CPE Bach and Quantz could disagree over this pattern suggests that there were (and still are) many agreeable possibilities!
@@leoduarte1306 Thank you very much for the thorough answer. Will definitely check your links out! Yes, I believe in pragmatism as well, and a good degree of freedom for the performer - as illustrated by my considerable admiration for Glenn Gould's singular interpretation for example.
As a modern player in the age of whatever age we are in now... I hate appoggiatura/grace notes/mordants/drags/ruffs/etc. not because they don’t sound cool. They certainly do. But because putting notes outside of time and tempo is stupid. They have to have time somewhere of some sort and appoggiatura figures just put the burden of finding that time on the player. Just write what you mean. Don’t leave it open ended. Please. It just makes everyone’s job harder, especially for ensemble playing when multiple people must come up with the same interpretation. Just. Write. The. Rhythm. You. Want. Thanks.
I think part of the reason why the notation was imprecise was precisely so that the burden fell to the performer, and so that each performance could be varied. But you’re absolutely right, when an ensemble reads through a piece the result can be chaotic. Indeed, many early theorists specifically pointed this out and recommended that composers either write the desired duration as a small note or, as you suggest, in large notation. The trouble with the latter is that performers back then sometimes saw this as a license to add an appoggiatura to an appoggiatura and things became even more chaotic!
@@leoduarte1306 yeah I understand the appeal for a soloist to take liberties. Open ended or interpretable figures might be more fun. But some people continue to use grace notes for Rudimental drumming, something usually done in precisely matched unison, requiring extreme coordination between several individuals on staccato instruments, or large ensemble pieces where 35 people on 4 different instrument types might be trying to match up an interpretation. In these contexts there’s no room for artistry. People who write a grace note for a drum line or a huge group of varied instruments are asking for trouble. They’re making it harder.
it is a bit distracting to have you looking up at the cue cards all the time.. Not a lot and maybe not at all to some.. but it distracts me from what you are saying.. (I know I am simple minded) Well done! thank you for your explanation.. it helps.
Stop being sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssso clever, as you trivialize your own contribution to the international understanding and appreciation of early music. Using British pretensions of its cultural superiority no longer has the currency it once had, so just lay out your data without these gimmicks, and stop presuming that quotes by Europeans need to reflect British attitudes to foreigners. Despite this, I really like your channel.
While this is very interesting, I could do without the weird squeaky voice and silly noises with the graphics….can we all agree that we’re adults, please???
Please lose the offensive accents. How about using native speakers of these lamguages. Really no need for it these days; I would have thought educated individuals would have known better. The 'German' accent was particularly bad.
The campy attempt at cheekiness in these stereotypical foreign-sounding accents is incredibly distracting. I really don't see the point in doing these. I wouldn't think that the creators would be naive enough to think that the humor attempt would gain them viewers who otherwise wouldn't be interested in the material. It's more likely to lead to the annoyance of regular viewers. The more likely answer to why they're here is that you all are having some fun making the video. That doesn't make these voices any less distracting and they do, in my opinion at least, detract from the presentation. I won't attempt to generalize offense or its lack in what a German or Italian speaker would think of this affectation at the expense of their respective languages. Maybe they would think these were funny?
As a(n amateur) singer, I was taught that:
"you sing an appoggiatura when you feel it sounds good to sing one".
That, in most cases, appoggiaturas were not notated in the vocal lines, especially not in recitatives, only facilitates the matter.
P.S. In Italian vocal music, appoggiaturas are used to accent words. Knowing the language very well will help the singer decide whether an appoggiatura is required.
What a great refresher from college music courses! Thank you!
Great intro to appoggiatura! Thank you. Got acciaccatura? 🙂
Hey, could you guys do more videos on these theoretical concepts? Especially how to handle these ornaments! This one is a fantastic reference tool!
I was thinking about subscribing...after that ending, I'm definitely subscribing.
I had no idea Leo could play traverso so well too! Truly a baroque musician!! Great video
This is a wonderful demonstration of the various ways to play an appogiatura. I will be sharing this with my cello students.
Very important topic! I'm a classical pianist and modern time pianists usually don't have a clue about how to play appoggiaturas. They simply never read treatises or investigate in any other way, we have an ongoing tradition of neglecting historic performance practise which has it's root in the tradition of the second half of the 20th century and it's 'greatest' pianists.
The biggest problem is how to differentiate between short and long appoggiaturas. The most important example is the figure eight note followed by two sixteenth notes where the eight note has an appoggiatura. It is clearly stated in all the 3 big treatises that this figure is never to be played as 4 sixteenth notes but have you ever heard Turkish March being played in any other way? The whole world knows it in the wrong version.
I’m sorry but that type of figure is clearly meant to be played as 4 semiquavers…They agre on the fact that the notation serves the purpose of preventing the player from adding an appoggiatura himself.
@@corradogiachetta2154 Nope, all the treatises clearly state that it's a short appogiatura. If you can find a historic text that states the opposite, please let me know.
Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca with the short appoggiatura:
ua-cam.com/video/-OWOqkUTjbE/v-deo.html
@@TonyBittner-Collins Yes, thank you, I know Wim Winters (for his fraudulent double-beat theory, but never the less ...). In the case of the Turkish March we also know what the Turkish March is, because the same March that Mozart heard in Vienna is still a national March today. Short appogiatura is self-evident here.
If anyone should provide evindence that woluld be you since you claim every fortepianist and harpsichordist is playing that figure incorrectly.
IFrom Leopold Mozart's violin treatise( 9th chapter, 3rd section):
"The descending appoggiature are of two kinds : namely, the Long and the Short.
Of the long there are two kinds, of which one is longer than the other. If the
appoggiatura stands before a crotchet, quaver, or semiquaver, it is played as a long
appoggiatura and is worth half of the value of the note following it. The appoggiatura is therefore sustained the length of time equivalent to half the note and is
slurred smoothly on to it. What the note loses is given to the appoggiatura"
He also states that the usage of the short appogiatura is limited to a small number which doesn't include such figure.
But if you have some piece of evidence that says otherwise please show me
Incidentally... love the accents. When I recommend these videos to my students, I can't imagine them enjoying them nearly as much without them.
What a great video - I was working with my flute teacher on just this topic!
This one of your best videos, guys. Congrats, though I hoped to hear Leo Duarte proving his soprano singing chops!
thank you for these theory contents,
Thanks! Very interesting video and great explanation. 👍🏼
Lovely instruments and beautiful music, too. 🎼🎶💕
11:47 Really like the ending, but...
Vibrato | Perfect
Perfect | Perfect
Subscribed, of course. Education plus some humor!
I love this. thank you!
Bravísimo ! Grande Maestro! Gracias!
In Russian, the melodic embellishments are called "melisms". "grace notes" are called "vorschlag". "short vorschlag" (crossed - acciaccatura) is performed before beat, by borrowing time from the previous beat. "long vorschlag" (not crossed - appoggiatura) is performed on beat.
Fantastic video! Thank you very much for your efforts!
So any note of the chord can be approached by appoggiatura? Appoggiaturated so to speak. Thnx bro❤
If it's properly prepared then, usually, yes!
Wonderful! But for some of the rules one does think actually why not just write it out in the first place. Particularly that example of the appogiatura on a tied note.
The notation was useful to warn performers that a particular type of expression is required on the appoggiaturas. However CPE Bach and others do recommend that composers actually write them out in big notes to avoid confusion. Other theorists disapproved of this because it sometimes led to performers adding appoggiaturas onto appoggiaturas which - though some musicians though it stylish - wasn’t universally approved of. As time went all appoggiaturas were notated as big notes. It would be perfectly feasible to write out Wagner’s Tristan using old-fashioned appoggiatura notation - I bet it would be an illuminating exercise.
Thank you sir.
WHat's the name of the aria played on flute and oboe da caccia? This sounds very pretty
Hi there, the aria is "Aus liebe" from Bach’s Matthew Passion
Talk of ornamentation led me to think of something. Do classical guitarists play Fernando Sor correctly?
I've heard Sor described as excellent for practice pieces, but musically uninteresting.
But the guitar is to a great extent an improvisational instrument, and Sor was a guitarist.
So did Sor actually intend for his music to be played as written, or was the musician intended to flesh it out with his own ornamentation?.
I'm afraid the guitar repertoire isn't my area of expertise, but certainly ornamentation was still being practiced when Sor was writing music. Not that everyone approved of it... Berlioz (who, incidentally, was also a guitar player!) wrote scathingly about an oboist ornamenting his Symphonie Fantastique in 1843! Perhaps some historical guitar players might be able to enlighten us further?
Any cadence: a
Plagal cadence: 🎵 Pleaaaaaaase, suuuuuubscriiiiiiiiibe 🎵
Took me quite a while to realize that he was british, and that british people have different names for notes. Also, O thought that these were called grace notes, is this another example of British music being different than American, or is it a jazz term, since I first saw this embellishment in jazz or, is it a different thing all together?
The term 'grace note' can be defined as denoting several kinds of musical ornaments. The Appoggiatura is a type of grace note.
this is great, so interesting and funny, thanks for uploading.
In French Baroque Music, “Port de Voix” “Coulé” and “Appoggiature” are three very different ornements !!!
moibastien You’re quite right. Various authorities do assign different executions to these terms. The terminology , as I’m sure you’re aware, is not always consistent and the nomenclature and performance directions are rarely, if ever, clear-cut. The examples chosen in the video were meant to illustrate some possible terms, not to be a definitive list. Including the common “coulé” in a discussion about appoggiaturas is perhaps a borderline case and I regret having chosen that particular term as an example if you find that it confuses the issue. Please forgive me. I’d be genuinely interested to know what you definition of “Appoggiature” is and what sources it is to be found in?
Quelle est la différence ? Il me semblait que port de voix et coulée étaient les deux types d'appogiatures.
excellent content!
Great! 😀
Very helpful!
I hope they recover the lost information
Nice video, but the absence of French treatises in the analysis was a bit of a surprise to me, as they happen to be quite important for this period...
I'd love to hear which particular treatises you are talking about. It's true that I may have missed some important Information by focussing on the big three (Quantz, Bach, & Mozart)!
What about different note values of appoggiatura? like semiquavers.
So you mean when composers write different value notes as little notes? If so, there are indeed many examples of composers specifying the lengths like this, but there was no consistent approach in the Eighteenth Century, much to the annoyance of many theorists then, and performers now!
Great, thanxalot.
What´s the name of this bach piece? Can´t remember...
It’s “Aus liebe” from Bach’s Matthew Passion
Great!
7:34 - How could you waste the opportunity of adding some good old italian hand gestures to Geminiani's statement?
At 1:25: It's coulé, but you pronounce it culé. That's a fairly different thing. :-)
Love 😍
Some very iffy accents, but another helpful lesson. I shall have to revise some of my interpretations. Thanks.
In the published edition of the Goldberg variations, J.S. Bach took the effort to write out the length values of his Vorschläge (appoggiature), sometimes quaver, sometimes semiquaver, and sometimes even demisemiquaver. He did not, like some other composers, simply write a quaver Vorschlag that could be played with any value.
Like his son, C.P.E. Bach wrote in his 1753 treatise: "... man [hat] seit nicht gar langer Zeit angefangen, diese Vorschläge nach ihrer wahren Geltung anzudeuten, anstatt dass man vor diesem alle Vorschläge durch Acht-Theile zu bezeichnen pflegte. Damahls waren die Vorschläge von so verschiedener Geltung noch nicht engeführet."
Therefore, when I play this, I always endeavour to play the appogiatura with the length indicated in the notation. The most notable example is how almost all performers insist on playing the second appoggiatura in the second bar as a quaver rather than a semiquaver even though there is no ambiguity about the actual notation written. An exception is Kimiko Ishizaka (found here on UA-cam) playing what's actually written, while almost any other performer you'll find plays it like Glenn Gould there.
Yes indeed, the Goldberg Variations are a very interesting case, and an example of Bach preparing a work for publication late in his life. There are also examples of his using more explicit notation in other works too, though this it is not a uniform feature throughout his compositional output, unfortunately!
If you're interested in then I very much recommend reading Colin Booth's book "Did Bach Really Mean That?" www.colinbooth.co.uk/book.html and also his article specifically about grace notes in the Goldberg Variations www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-ornament-article.pdf
In his recording of the variations Booth plays both the grace notes in the second bar short and slightly before the beat, after the manner which Quantz describes (see 3:00 in my video). Another excellent recording with the OAE's Steven Devine departs from the Gould model and takes a beautifully nuanced approach to the graces in the second bar. The very fact that even CPE Bach and Quantz could disagree over this pattern suggests that there were (and still are) many agreeable possibilities!
@@leoduarte1306 Thank you very much for the thorough answer. Will definitely check your links out!
Yes, I believe in pragmatism as well, and a good degree of freedom for the performer - as illustrated by my considerable admiration for Glenn Gould's singular interpretation for example.
As a modern player in the age of whatever age we are in now... I hate appoggiatura/grace notes/mordants/drags/ruffs/etc. not because they don’t sound cool. They certainly do. But because putting notes outside of time and tempo is stupid. They have to have time somewhere of some sort and appoggiatura figures just put the burden of finding that time on the player. Just write what you mean. Don’t leave it open ended. Please. It just makes everyone’s job harder, especially for ensemble playing when multiple people must come up with the same interpretation. Just. Write. The. Rhythm. You. Want. Thanks.
I think part of the reason why the notation was imprecise was precisely so that the burden fell to the performer, and so that each performance could be varied. But you’re absolutely right, when an ensemble reads through a piece the result can be chaotic. Indeed, many early theorists specifically pointed this out and recommended that composers either write the desired duration as a small note or, as you suggest, in large notation. The trouble with the latter is that performers back then sometimes saw this as a license to add an appoggiatura to an appoggiatura and things became even more chaotic!
@@leoduarte1306 yeah I understand the appeal for a soloist to take liberties. Open ended or interpretable figures might be more fun. But some people continue to use grace notes for Rudimental drumming, something usually done in precisely matched unison, requiring extreme coordination between several individuals on staccato instruments, or large ensemble pieces where 35 people on 4 different instrument types might be trying to match up an interpretation. In these contexts there’s no room for artistry. People who write a grace note for a drum line or a huge group of varied instruments are asking for trouble. They’re making it harder.
7:06A strong start!😊 obviously 🙄 ✨it’s by bach✨
From what piece is this excerpt ?
@@BaieDesBaies Bach BWV 244, Second part: Nr.49. Aria "Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben" ua-cam.com/video/uG6VM_t4ydU/v-deo.html
@@DZDT3717 Thanks a lot !
Yeah, more of these informative video's please! But, please use the metric system of music instead of your imperial one.
Sorry about that! I hope that the written examples make it clear enough :-)
1:00 I didn't know Tosi was Welsh
This is awesome! 🎶
Makes you wonder why they didn't just write clearly what notes they wanted played!
Grace notes
PLEEEEEEEEEEEESE SUUUUUUUUUUB-SCRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIbuh
it is a bit distracting to have you looking up at the cue cards all the time.. Not a lot and maybe not at all to some.. but it distracts me from what you are saying.. (I know I am simple minded) Well done! thank you for your explanation.. it helps.
Stop being sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssso clever, as you trivialize your own contribution to the international understanding and appreciation of early music. Using British pretensions of its cultural superiority no longer has the currency it once had, so just lay out your data without these gimmicks, and stop presuming that quotes by Europeans need to reflect British attitudes to foreigners. Despite this, I really like your channel.
Wouldn’t it just have been better to write exactly what they meant.
While this is very interesting, I could do without the weird squeaky voice and silly noises with the graphics….can we all agree that we’re adults, please???
Please lose the offensive accents. How about using native speakers of these lamguages. Really no need for it these days; I would have thought educated individuals would have known better. The 'German' accent was particularly bad.
I'm confused: nobody that I saw in this video is speaking any 'lamguage' at all, let alone with an accent.
Wilhelm Orangenbaum It's okay. No 'harn' was done to me. I got out of this completely 'unharned'.
Tosi sounded Welsh
The Back Garden View Yes ... who is the person who sounded welsh? Is she a member?
The campy attempt at cheekiness in these stereotypical foreign-sounding accents is incredibly distracting. I really don't see the point in doing these. I wouldn't think that the creators would be naive enough to think that the humor attempt would gain them viewers who otherwise wouldn't be interested in the material. It's more likely to lead to the annoyance of regular viewers. The more likely answer to why they're here is that you all are having some fun making the video. That doesn't make these voices any less distracting and they do, in my opinion at least, detract from the presentation.
I won't attempt to generalize offense or its lack in what a German or Italian speaker would think of this affectation at the expense of their respective languages. Maybe they would think these were funny?
what!? no appoggiatura in the subscribe request? sac.ril.ege. I say...