I really appreciate the straightforward and unbiased approach you have in addressing the issues of insulating homes, as well as, other practices in the construction industry.
Thank you so much for these hard to come by facts. I've been in limbo trying to find shingles that were rated for the extra heat that everyone is talking about and your video has given me confidence to go ahead with spray foam. Much appreciated!!!!
Thank you for this informative video. I have a home that I'm getting ready to renovate every room down to the floor joists, wall studs and ceiling joists and I already planned on using closed cell spray foam for the exterior walls and maybe even soundproofing on interior walls but now I have the answer I was seeking regarding roofs. I found your channel last year and subscribed immediately and I appreciate and enjoy all of your content, even the content that does not apply to anything I am going to do....I still enjoy watching and learning something new. Have a great day sir.
I had to sue for payment once 11 years ago, because the framer told my customer that the foam voided the shingle warranty even though it didn’t. And my customer took his word for it rather than actually talking to the shingle manufacturer or hearing what I had to say on the matter. Certainteed has it written in their shingle warranty that it is acceptable to have spray foam on the roof and unvented attic. 2 years later I got paid in full plus interest and lawyer fees.
Having gone through the legal system here in Eastern Canada and finally won in the Appeal Court due to an incompetent Judge here on Prince Edward Island at the Supreme Court of PEI level, I totally fully appreciate what you went through in the court system. It is not easy! Fighting for truth is quite a commitment and I admire your resilience.🙏🇨🇦🍁
Thank you for this content -- I have been holding off on a closed cell spray foam in the underside of my 3 car garage workshop until I could understand this better.
What an incredible good idea it was to remove the background noise from the audio track. No more Schuduodugongdudongdudondudodudadudong ! It was almost as if it was the first time I watched this video!
This has been one of the least offending music backgrounds, because *it’s actually in the background*! I hate when the music is so loud that it distracts from the voice!
I just installed closed cell under my roof yesterday and have been reading and researching like a mad man. I keep seeing comments about roof life and water becoming a serious issues with closed cell. This video actually has some facts and has made me feel better about my decision. I still don’t have all the answers but I would think that if this kind of roof insulation was an issue there would be numerous law suits and would probably be illegal by now since it’s been around for more than a decade.
thank you! It’s going to be a miracle if I end up getting spray foam in my new build with the rate of all the scary videos that get thrown at me. The summary seems to be that I can do it but I’d be ready to spend on the ventilation and dehumidifier equipment.
As always you have done a great job of showing many truths. Shingles manufacturers always looking for a way out of warranty. I’m going to send you an email. Thanks again!
I like your videos. They confirm what I've known for years ect but u have a nice way of words and explaining ect. I've been spraying for 20 years and still learning. Lol Thanks
@@SprayJones have you seen Chinese foam coming into your area? There is a company in Toronto pushing it. They don't have the new CFO foam that I know at this time. It's cheep and has a low r-value per inch as well.
Great video!!! What if fiberglass, rockwool or foam board was installed between the rafters? Do the shingle companies still insist that you voided the warranty with that insulation or is it only the "evil" spray foam? I have my HVAC equipment and duct work in my vented attic in northeast US (zone 5) and this spring I will be getting the attic rafters and gable walls sprayed with closed cell foam thereby making it unvented. I am super excited to get this done.
We don't mix permeable with non. Closed cell is all you need. What warranty - they don't cover install and they only pro rate the product... it is a selling feature.
@@SprayJones Where did I mention mixing perm and non-perm???? I'm having closed cell sprayed in my rafters and gable walls. My question was a general question about the shingle manufacturers. Do they void the shingle warranty if you install fiberglass batts between the rafters? Do they void the shingle warranty if you install rockwool between the rafters? Do they void the shingle warranty if you install foam board between the rafters? Or do they only void the shingle warranty if you install the "evil" spray foam (open or closed) between the rafters? All 4 options are insulation that "could cause the shingle temp to increase", so why do they only object to the spray foam between the rafters?
Very interesting, my southern facing roof shingles are 15 years old. The need to be replaced, I have spray foam roof deck. Hopefully this video will help me make my case for warranty ??? They are 30 year shingles. Thanks 👍🏽
You give the facts. And daily others give their opinions because they "know best." I'll go with you on this. Incidentally I live in Florida and I am getting ready to have a spray foam job on my underside of my roof with open cell and lots are talking me out of closed cell but I may do closed anyway. Anyway, this attic will be fully sealed. Would you rec a dehumidifier, ERV or anything other than just sealing perfectly. Ranch home. 4/12 pitch.
I wonder how much the temperature increases in the peck of a South Texas summer vs the average yearly temp? Great video and thank you for the Information.
Where can I get a copy of this study you r show us in this video. I have this discussion all the time with building officials and or other contractors. Thanks
Email me through my web site contact page. Tell me what study you want and I will email it to you. Sometime building officials need Engineering papers that are stamped to get them to full back off. The don't listen to industry "study" papers.
In one municipality I was at on Wednesday the building Inspector ONLY goes by what the Ontario code says. They WILL not allow any foam to be sprayed to a roof underside unless there is a air gape ever if it doesn't vent out anywhere. It was a pointless conversation because his only answer to any question or concerns was well the "code says" . I've had other officials use common sense ect. I hate it when they have no answer when they approve Zip panel houses.
@@CameronWWE123 Ok, what you are experiencing is common. We have had the Walltite system approved no vented for all of Saskatchewan. Did in 2008. Someone needs to take charge in Ontario and get this dealt with. The code is hopelessly outdated with modern technology. Most departments know this and are making allowances for alternate solutions to show compliance. Next week's video on vapor barriers I start to show how we did this for no poly and SPF...
The issue isn't the AVERAGE temperature but the extremes, and that is where ventilation is useful and will preserve shingle life, even though it is a bad idea from an energy efficiency perspective. On new builds it is definitely worth getting light colored shingles, but spray foam is being put on existing roofs with potentially disastrous effects.
Just came across your channel today! Really needed to know this information now. Am a diy'er and wondered if the closed cell foam for my dormer attic space was a good idea since it is unvented. I will check my shingle warranty for cc foam and proceed with the rest of my attic roof accordingly. Thanks!!!
Great info. Thanks for clearing the misconception. To improve ventilation of an unvented roof can we use furring strips below the metal sheets or shingles?
So... you make a good point that shingle mfrs shouldn't void warranties over unvenitlated roofs, but is it still happening or have they changed course? We're building right now and have to make a decision, and I don't want my roof warranty voided...
Who cares about a warranty... you still have your eyes on the wrong part. They do not warranty installation, only manufacturer defects and at a pro-rated value... choose a great product and you won't have issues. Can you get Elk Shingles where you are? They warranty over SPF.
Great video, but a little confused. Seems that two of the three studies say something like color makes a difference twice as much as vented or not, or something like that. But the one study says 20-30% difference for white. Wouldn't that mean that everyone should be using white all the time? That is a dramatic difference. Also, would you expect the same for one of those GAFF type roll roofing systems? Should I be using white to get more use out of it, and can I expect similar performance as Shinges in terms of vented versus non vented?
@@alexbonilla4262 I have a buddy who does spray foam and he said they vacuum out the existing blown in insulation, spray foam the attic floor, and then blow the old insulation back in over the spray foam. Leaving the roof or peak alone.
If you can get out and make some video's going over the spray chalk and foam talking about close cell, open and when to use them together and appling them. I am not a person that does this for a living but, have applied diy spary foam with good results it takes skill to learn how to do it right. Just trying to help your channel and get the information out there more.
it has been my experience that Ice damming causes far more damage to shingles that the average summer temperatures. Ice damming can break shingles at the time of occurrence where as average temperatures take longer periods of time, seasons perhaps. with that being said I would agree with the spray foam arguments for use as insulating the deck would or should prevent ice damming.
Thanks. I will have some more info coming on the roofs, including melting of snow and what temps are normal on the outside of a roof in the middle of winter. So hang around the results will surprise people.
if i was to stick frame a new place where im at i would spray foam the whole place and i would even pay more just to have you come down from canookia to do it ! what are the effects with a metal roof i wonder ? i would assume color has a lot to with it as well . but i could just be making a ass out of you and me . LOL glad to see some new stuff from you , just the facts and no BS .
So your conclusions seemed based on Canadian roofs. Would you expect a difference in the US southeast where the temperatures along with humidity is much higher? Seems the foam would not allow humidity that is absorbed by the sheathing to escape, reducing the ability of the roof to dry out. And, would not be surprised to see a higher differential in temperature from roof surfaces in a much higher temp climate as well.
We had spray foam applied directly to the underside of our roof decking. Our 30 year shingles on the south side were shot in less than 12 years. This is in TN. We replaced the asphalt shingles with steel shingles. I could not recommend this method in the south. If I had a chance for a do-over, I would use vents against the decking, to allow air flow from the soffit to the ridge vent.
There are plenty of areas that have SPF direct to deck with no issues. Elk shingles will warranty their products. Have to start with a quality shingle and not just a marketing slogan.
@@SprayJones I'm not that familiar with shingles, and their quality. Had never heard of Elk shingles before. What brands do you consider to be just a marketing slogan?
I've only ran into ONE white shingle roof in my life. It is in Provo UT. The shingles seemed to last TWICE as long as dark shingles. And the lady says here a/c bill is extremely low, and her house stays cool.
What about if there’s a roof leak with spray foam on the bottom of the roof deck. Would closed or open cell be better from that standpoint? I would think with closed cell you might not know there’s a leak and the capillary action of the deck material could cause more damage (potentially larger area anyway)? Open cell I guess you’d see the water damaged foam and be able to track to origin of the leak? Maybe it’s a small potential risk but I’m interested in what the pros/cons would be in that situation.
@@SprayJones 👍👍 I love being precise ... lol Here is the site I thought was the site for the referenced publication www.professionalroofing.net/Issues?page=18 To be precise I'd like both the article pdf ... and if you have the guy's study pdf that as well.
I have sprayed under-my roof deck with open cell, but my house still get very hot in the summer time, i have been considering spraying the top ceiling Joist too... would I need to ventilate my attic too? Or is this something you recommend? I dont have central air, I have mini ductless units in my house
Do you have any such study that was done in the South? We build in the DFW Metroplex and may have our first issue with a manufacture voiding their warranty to to spray foam on the decking. Great information!
Florida State has a whole report that can be found on line that discusses shingle life. However, they reference the studies that I mention in this video. Also Elk Shingles has a report of shingle warranty and the use of SPF. This applies to Texas and southern climates.
@@SprayJones Thank you so much for the prompt response. I will look them up. I'm in the middle of reading a study on Humidity levels in Foam encapsulated homes in semi conditioned spaces. their test was done in South Carolina. I haven't finished the article, but I noticed some temperature readings that may contradict your findings. here's a link to this study: www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1344250 most of it is over my head, I just found your channel last night, but I'm wondering if you have a video addressing humidity issues? Thanks again for the response.
@@cartermahanay5947 Humidity of a function of the HVAC system. All we do is provide an airtight envelope. After that you need a properly balanced system. Look at my video on "can a home be too tight". Check out energy wise structures.com
@@SprayJones Funny you should mention energywise. They've done the engineered duct design on every home we've built! We even used to do their "Guaranteed Savings" warranty with the sub meter and everything. No one ever came close to filing a claim, so we discontinued the program to save on costs. we also switched to flex duct VS the Rigid pipe as we determined the cost/benefit ratio didn't work for us.
Black or dark shingles are the only ones available in my area. White is not an option. I am sure this keeps the shingles flowing out the retailers door because of the lower life expectancy. Not having white as an options, I went with a white metal roof. Never looked back.
Spray Jones thank you so much for our very informative videos. Keep them coming. Quick question. I’m going to build my own home and had decided on spray close cell foam untill my new neighbor told me that he wished he didn’t use spray foam because he’s having issues with his bathroom vents and kitchen vend because his house is so air tight. Any ideas how to fix this issue? Any help would be much appreciated.
Average temperature may be less important than the highest temperature hit (temperature extremes) with vented vs unvented roofs. Was there a max temperature hit quoted in the study?
Question: for closed cell foam spray with unvented attics, how is home moisture resolved? Is there a negative affect on the interior of the attic due to moisture build up? Thanks for your videos. Great info
No there is not a moisture issue. if you want to see more watch video #3 of the unvented roof series I did. It is in the playlists for cathedral ceilings. I go over the stats on temp and humidity.
Thank you for the information. Out of curiosity, is there a need to put a barrier between the roof decking and the foam in the event that the roofing media fails and the roof decking needs to be replaced? Such as possibly installing poly or tar paper prior to installing the roof sheeting? Also, if spray foam is a way insurance companies try and void a warranty, what is Zip-R sheathing doing? Is it doing the same thing when installed on a roof?
We always want tight bonding of the foam to the roof deck. If you have an intermediary it will only open the door to the issues you stated. Zip sheathing is a great product and it is changing the industry for the better. You are correct that the shingle companies will need to address this product behind theirs. In short time to get with the times. Stay subbed, I have 25 new videos coming out over 90 days that will answer a lot of these types of questions.
@@SprayJones i was watching a UA-cam video where someone had spray foam applied and then bats over it. The bats ended up getting soaked with moisture. What would cause this? Would that be a capillary break or where spray foam was not properly applied allowing cold air to meet the hot side of the room? Just curious.
@@diyhomeowner3879 Air leakage. The building is not sealed. The foam is too thin and not consistent enough to do its job. Flash and batt is a huge problem and should be banned!
@@SprayJones i feel bad for the guy. Building a barndominium at about 3000-4000 sq ft and the drywall just got finished. Now I think it will all have to come down and be redone.
You would think that if the attic of a house that has been foamed prooerly and the temperature of the attic is the return air of the ac then the attic should be cool when the ac is running and therefore the roof sheeting plus shingles should be cooler
@SprayJones so if the shingles rely on heat to bond together and they aren't hot enough due to the attic temp, wouldn't that alow for wind to tear them off or blow them up during a rain storm
Have you heard of anyone with closed cell sprayed to the roof deck in the US ,getting a warranty denial overturned by using the Magnusson Moss warranty act?
20 years ago when i reshingled my roof, i went with the lightest colour i could find, a beige like wood colour. It doesn’t take scientific research to know that lighter colours don’t get as hot in the sun.
@Spray Jones Hello. My concern is about having roof sheathing between 2 vapor barriers, the closed cell spray foam and the tar paper and shingles. I thought that would create a situation where you would get rot from moisture not being able to escape or more importantly dry rot from being too dry. What are your thoughts on this?
No issue what so ever. Tar paper and shingles are not adhered to the roof. They are external drainage and weather barriers.. Watch 4 part series on non vented roofs to learn more. I go over that in detail in part 3.
@@SprayJones thank you for your time. I covered my entire roof with Grace ice and water Shield. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. Would your answer still be the same? Again, thank you for your time I know you must be a very busy man
I would have thought vented attics would have reduced the temp by more than just 3%. Great video and well referenced. It obviously makes sense white is better than black shingles but esthetics will probably trump scientific efficiency with homeowners sadly.
That makes total sense that if the attic underneath the shingles/sheathing is cooler (because the foam keeps it from heating up), then the shingles can cool off more quickly once out of the direct sunlight. @Spray Jones, has there been arbitration/court decisions where the shingle manufacturers have been forced to admit the facts shown in this video?
Hi Mr. Spray Jones. Down here in WI. Spraying foam can be challenging when’s this time of year. Cold. Frost. Humidity. What’s the best way to heat up building. Like a pole shed. I run a Val 6 inferred with fans. During the day. When the sun goes down I shut down the heat.but leave fans run all night. I leave a door and windows open. What’s your thoughts. How can I improve or do better with what I have. I heard indirect heat with venting and plumbing. But Im sorry can’t afford to buy. Are you apart of the SFWW. page on Facebook. Any advice will help. Thanks for your time.
I’ve seen a new house get built 8 years ago they didn’t put any vents on the roof (turbine, ridge vent etc) only the soffit had vents, the attic would get really hot in the summer, it only had insulation on the attic floor, right now the shingles look 20 plus years old , which means the temperature of the sheathing is important, spraying foam on the roof deck will not allow the roof sheathing to cool down thus over heating the shingles which will lead to premature wear
Fact: new houses are built with the cheapest f'in shingles on the planet. If they look 20 years old after 8 years it is because the builders don't give two flying fiddlesticks about you or your home. The shingles only have to last long enough for you to buy the building...they might as well paint them on. Watch the video and keep learning.
the major concern is JOT single degradation/lifespan, its the decking, esp if it gets wet- closed does contract nd over time the seal has NOT airtight; moreover, if sheathing gets wet from a roof leaK, you wont notice it and it wont be able to dry out to the inside
My roof shingles had their edges curling up. I checked on the price of a new roof. Over $4,000. I went to Lowe's and looked for a sealer to get me buy until I had the money to install a new roof. I found a product called Roofguard 700 White. I purchased 20 gallons. I rolled the sealer uphill under the shingles to flatten them back out. I used 6oz. fiberglass in bad spots. My attic became dramatically cooler in the summer lowering my air conditioning bill about $60 per month. Every other year, I apply a new layer. That figures out to be about $50 per year. After 14 years, I still haven't replaced my roof. The coating is getting to be a solid layer. All my neighbors have gotten new roofs due to hail damage. Mine has little depressions but no real damage.
@@piusnevitt9711 Because my house was built in 1953, I have a conventional roof with 14"+ cellulose insulation in the attic Since my roof is white, that makes a vast amount of difference.
Thats what happens when panels of experts are truly interested in corporate interests, thats why these "experts" still promote R-Values knowing they're horse shit
Spray Jones rocks.... I have built with Sips....basically same thing. You don't need venting, and frankly, why anyone building a medium to high end house would NOT foam the roof or use sip roofs is a mystery to me. It is a farce to require all sorts of SEER this, or efficiency that for your HVAC, and then run all your duct work in an uninsulated attic. Just more "trust the science" I guess.
Used Open cell spray foam about 8 inches thick on underside of roof decking with 30# felt and 30 year shingles. The light tan colored shingles are now brittle and many blew off during the recent wind storm. The shingles are 13 years old and all need to be replaced. Zone 2 Central Texas. Haven't looked under the tar paper yet.... super worried about what I may find. If I could do it over again I'd do a vent or double decker roof. My current experience in the real world is contradictory to your alleged "facts".
I have seen the cheapest shingles BP makes installed on a conventional vented roof fail after 10 years, blow off every wind storm over 40 miles per hour all the while claiming a 25 year warranty on their product. Don't generalize on specific a instance of failure. You blame the SPF but you don't have the data on that. The science in the reports I present are raw data showing otherwise. If you cannot or will not learn then get off my channel.
However, the researchers were not comparing unvented roofs, which included spray foam. It's a big logical jump to go from unvented to unvented plus spray foam. Sure, you would be a proponent of spray foam, that's how you make your living. I'm not suggesting that you believe spray foam is detrimental to roofs, but you push it anyway, I'm suggesting that your opinion is just that, opinion.
Very interesting videos. It is great to insulate walls and ceilings, but concrete floors on the ground also need insulation. Is it possible to install spray foam (XPS, EPS 120) on the ground under the concrete floor to replace the insulation boards? If possible, how is the required thickness and strength of the layer ensured? Thanks!
You can’t trust anybody anymore. Nobody takes ownership of there work. Always looking for something else to blame. That’s the sign of our times. I just use common sense now.
Probably fine in Canada. But Texas??? On a black shingle? Or any Southern Hemisphere states?? We’re talking roofs that reach 200 degrees just in spring time. We have to address all construction by hemispheres the same way we do plants we pick for our homes. It’s different everywhere. And let’s be honest nobody is going to do white shingles. What we really need is more metal roofs and a new decking material invented
There is a lot of data on spray foam roofs for texas, florida, nevada, arizona, and so on. When I trained at Demilec in Houston they taught SPF non vented exclusively. The USA is 25 years ahead of other parts of Canada and Europe. I can and will only put so much supporting info into one video. I will be doing a video probably for Feb on vaulted ceilings and supporting that with some very interesting building science studies. So stick around.
@@SprayJones sounds good. Also curious. Would a metal roof solve all problems that could possibly arise, that older builders keep referring too? or does it come with its own set of new problems ?
I really appreciate the straightforward and unbiased approach you have in addressing the issues of insulating homes, as well as, other practices in the construction industry.
Thank you so much for these hard to come by facts. I've been in limbo trying to find shingles that were rated for the extra heat that everyone is talking about and your video has given me confidence to go ahead with spray foam. Much appreciated!!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this informative video. I have a home that I'm getting ready to renovate every room down to the floor joists, wall studs and ceiling joists and I already planned on using closed cell spray foam for the exterior walls and maybe even soundproofing on interior walls but now I have the answer I was seeking regarding roofs. I found your channel last year and subscribed immediately and I appreciate and enjoy all of your content, even the content that does not apply to anything I am going to do....I still enjoy watching and learning something new. Have a great day sir.
Thanks
I had to sue for payment once 11 years ago, because the framer told my customer that the foam voided the shingle warranty even though it didn’t. And my customer took his word for it rather than actually talking to the shingle manufacturer or hearing what I had to say on the matter. Certainteed has it written in their shingle warranty that it is acceptable to have spray foam on the roof and unvented attic. 2 years later I got paid in full plus interest and lawyer fees.
Having gone through the legal system here in Eastern Canada and finally won in the Appeal Court due to an incompetent Judge here on Prince Edward Island at the Supreme Court of PEI level, I totally fully appreciate what you went through in the court system. It is not easy! Fighting for truth is quite a commitment and I admire your resilience.🙏🇨🇦🍁
Thank you for this content -- I have been holding off on a closed cell spray foam in the underside of my 3 car garage workshop until I could understand this better.
Glad I could help - I think you will be happy with a closed cell foam installation.
Very interesting video. I am about to build a house and find this information timely. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
What an incredible good idea it was to remove the background noise from the audio track. No more Schuduodugongdudongdudondudodudadudong ! It was almost as if it was the first time I watched this video!
Agree.
No more music from here on. Too many varying opinions.
I am going through all the old videos, removing and re-doing.
@@SprayJones Thanks for no music.
This has been one of the least offending music backgrounds, because *it’s actually in the background*! I hate when the music is so loud that it distracts from the voice!
Thanks for sharing, getting ready to roof several key buildings in new construction. This really impacted my take and choice of color for roofing.
Glad it was helpful!
I just installed closed cell under my roof yesterday and have been reading and researching like a mad man. I keep seeing comments about roof life and water becoming a serious issues with closed cell. This video actually has some facts and has made me feel better about my decision.
I still don’t have all the answers but I would think that if this kind of roof insulation was an issue there would be numerous law suits and would probably be illegal by now since it’s been around for more than a decade.
Watch the 4 part series on roofs. You will find it in the playlist for vaulted ceilings.
@@SprayJones Yes, it was a super playlist of such helpfulness!💯
Just found your channel and I love your videos!! I feel like I’ve learned so much in 30 minutes!!
That's the idea! Thanks for coming by. More info dropping this week.
Thanks for citing published research in your videos. It definitely enhances the content.
My pleasure!
@@SprayJones I would like to get the link to those research, Thanks for the very interesting and informational video
@@super2222sd Email me via my web site.
Very informative. Makes me rethink the roof system
Good that's the idea.
thank you! It’s going to be a miracle if I end up getting spray foam in my new build with the rate of all the scary videos that get thrown at me. The summary seems to be that I can do it but I’d be ready to spend on the ventilation and dehumidifier equipment.
This whole channel is complete with no BS videos on SPF. Keep watching.
I do nothing but metal roofs, again fire issues, and the sun down here, on a shingle roof, it will be 190 F. in the attic. Great show.
Good, that works.
As always you have done a great job of showing many truths.
Shingles manufacturers always looking for a way out of warranty.
I’m going to send you an email.
Thanks again!
I like your videos. They confirm what I've known for years ect but u have a nice way of words and explaining ect.
I've been spraying for 20 years and still learning. Lol
Thanks
Great! Awesome to have another sprayer here. Stay tuned because for the next 90 - 100 days I am bombing the industry with info.
We belong to CUFCA as a member and they provided an awesome study with this subject.
@@SprayJones have you seen Chinese foam coming into your area?
There is a company in Toronto pushing it. They don't have the new CFO foam that I know at this time. It's cheep and has a low r-value per inch as well.
@@SprayJones will keep watching
@@CameronWWE123 No HFO No Spray.
Great content! Didn't waste any time with fluff or irrelevant sidetracks. You do great analyses.
Thank you.
Great perso! Do you have any similar reports regarding spray foam and metal roofing? Thanks!
No, there is no issue with metal.
Great video with resources sited 👍🏼.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video!!!
What if fiberglass, rockwool or foam board was installed between the rafters? Do the shingle companies still insist that you voided the warranty with that insulation or is it only the "evil" spray foam?
I have my HVAC equipment and duct work in my vented attic in northeast US (zone 5) and this spring I will be getting the attic rafters and gable walls sprayed with closed cell foam thereby making it unvented. I am super excited to get this done.
We don't mix permeable with non. Closed cell is all you need.
What warranty - they don't cover install and they only pro rate the product... it is a selling feature.
@@SprayJones Where did I mention mixing perm and non-perm???? I'm having closed cell sprayed in my rafters and gable walls.
My question was a general question about the shingle manufacturers.
Do they void the shingle warranty if you install fiberglass batts between the rafters?
Do they void the shingle warranty if you install rockwool between the rafters?
Do they void the shingle warranty if you install foam board between the rafters?
Or do they only void the shingle warranty if you install the "evil" spray foam (open or closed) between the rafters?
All 4 options are insulation that "could cause the shingle temp to increase", so why do they only object to the spray foam between the rafters?
@@jamesf.ryaniii7918 I like the 4 question marks - nice touch. i got it now
Very interesting, my southern facing roof shingles are 15 years old. The need to be replaced, I have spray foam roof deck. Hopefully this video will help me make my case for warranty ??? They are 30 year shingles. Thanks 👍🏽
Warranty is a joke. They only cover manufacturer's defects and never installation and all of that is pro-rated.
You give the facts. And daily others give their opinions because they "know best." I'll go with you on this. Incidentally I live in Florida and I am getting ready to have a spray foam job on my underside of my roof with open cell and lots are talking me out of closed cell but I may do closed anyway. Anyway, this attic will be fully sealed. Would you rec a dehumidifier, ERV or anything other than just sealing perfectly. Ranch home. 4/12 pitch.
Great info. Well done sir.
Glad it was helpful!
I first read, "SINGLE life and spray foam" and I thought, odd, but yeah, I'll watch that. Lol
Good. It works to rope you in.
I wonder how much the temperature increases in the peck of a South Texas summer vs the average yearly temp? Great video and thank you for the Information.
How does nail penetration through the roof deck affect the application of foam on the underside of the roof deck?
None as long as not pierced through.
Where can I get a copy of this study you r show us in this video. I have this discussion all the time with building officials and or other contractors. Thanks
Email me through my web site contact page. Tell me what study you want and I will email it to you.
Sometime building officials need Engineering papers that are stamped to get them to full back off. The don't listen to industry "study" papers.
In one municipality I was at on Wednesday the building Inspector ONLY goes by what the Ontario code says. They WILL not allow any foam to be sprayed to a roof underside unless there is a air gape ever if it doesn't vent out anywhere. It was a pointless conversation because his only answer to any question or concerns was well the "code says" .
I've had other officials use common sense ect.
I hate it when they have no answer when they approve Zip panel houses.
@@CameronWWE123 Ok, what you are experiencing is common. We have had the Walltite system approved no vented for all of Saskatchewan. Did in 2008. Someone needs to take charge in Ontario and get this dealt with. The code is hopelessly outdated with modern technology. Most departments know this and are making allowances for alternate solutions to show compliance.
Next week's video on vapor barriers I start to show how we did this for no poly and SPF...
The issue isn't the AVERAGE temperature but the extremes, and that is where ventilation is useful and will preserve shingle life, even though it is a bad idea from an energy efficiency perspective. On new builds it is definitely worth getting light colored shingles, but spray foam is being put on existing roofs with potentially disastrous effects.
The reports and real life say otherwise. Take your low level knowledge elsewhere.
@@SprayJones You are just showing your bias here- and that's all we needed to know :)
Just came across your channel today! Really needed to know this information now. Am a diy'er and wondered if the closed cell foam for my dormer attic space was a good idea since it is unvented. I will check my shingle warranty for cc foam and proceed with the rest of my attic roof accordingly. Thanks!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent task of high quality and to the point with research to provide the Facts. WEll done! 💯 🇨🇦🍁
Can you spray foam the sheathing if you have clay or concrete shingles?
Great info. Thanks for clearing the misconception. To improve ventilation of an unvented roof can we use furring strips below the metal sheets or shingles?
I suppose you can. Be careful of introducing too many points where something can collect and hold water.
So... you make a good point that shingle mfrs shouldn't void warranties over unvenitlated roofs, but is it still happening or have they changed course? We're building right now and have to make a decision, and I don't want my roof warranty voided...
Who cares about a warranty... you still have your eyes on the wrong part. They do not warranty installation, only manufacturer defects and at a pro-rated value... choose a great product and you won't have issues.
Can you get Elk Shingles where you are? They warranty over SPF.
How does a steel roof hold up?
Beautifully.
Great video, but a little confused. Seems that two of the three studies say something like color makes a difference twice as much as vented or not, or something like that. But the one study says 20-30% difference for white. Wouldn't that mean that everyone should be using white all the time? That is a dramatic difference. Also, would you expect the same for one of those GAFF type roll roofing systems? Should I be using white to get more use out of it, and can I expect similar performance as Shinges in terms of vented versus non vented?
If I have a vented roof, would I add spray foam to the peak? Or actually the attic floor where the existing particulate insulation is located?
That is the same question I want to ask mr. Jones
@@alexbonilla4262 I have a buddy who does spray foam and he said they vacuum out the existing blown in insulation, spray foam the attic floor, and then blow the old insulation back in over the spray foam. Leaving the roof or peak alone.
Are you located in the Ottawa area? I have cathedral ceilings to be sprayed.
No. Sask.
AWESOME info here man!
Do you have a link to that document someplace?
No. I have it only in PDF, not an online hyperlink.
How about slate or metal roofs? Is it better to vent Incase there is a small leak and it can dry out?
If you can get out and make some video's going over the spray chalk and foam talking about close cell, open and when to use them together and appling them.
I am not a person that does this for a living but, have applied diy spary foam with good results it takes skill to learn how to do it right.
Just trying to help your channel and get the information out there more.
Ok. Will do.
Are you able to link that article you referenced in the beginning regarding the opinion of Ontario Building Code?
It was just a scanned paper that I have saved.
Email me through my web site and I can send it to you.
it has been my experience that Ice damming causes far more damage to shingles that the average summer temperatures. Ice damming can break shingles at the time of occurrence where as average temperatures take longer periods of time, seasons perhaps. with that being said I would agree with the spray foam arguments for use as insulating the deck would or should prevent ice damming.
Thanks. I will have some more info coming on the roofs, including melting of snow and what temps are normal on the outside of a roof in the middle of winter. So hang around the results will surprise people.
I have found poor installation to be the main reason for early roof shingle failure. That followed by moss growth.
if i was to stick frame a new place where im at i would spray foam the whole place and i would even pay more just to have you come down from canookia to do it ! what are the effects with a metal roof i wonder ? i would assume color has a lot to with it as well . but i could just be making a ass out of you and me . LOL glad to see some new stuff from you , just the facts and no BS .
Thanks. Metal is no biggy. Fewer objections since most of the time it is a 50+ year product.
So your conclusions seemed based on Canadian roofs. Would you expect a difference in the US southeast where the temperatures along with humidity is much higher? Seems the foam would not allow humidity that is absorbed by the sheathing to escape, reducing the ability of the roof to dry out. And, would not be surprised to see a higher differential in temperature from roof surfaces in a much higher temp climate as well.
We had spray foam applied directly to the underside of our roof decking. Our 30 year shingles on the south side were shot in less than 12 years. This is in TN. We replaced the asphalt shingles with steel shingles. I could not recommend this method in the south. If I had a chance for a do-over, I would use vents against the decking, to allow air flow from the soffit to the ridge vent.
There are plenty of areas that have SPF direct to deck with no issues. Elk shingles will warranty their products.
Have to start with a quality shingle and not just a marketing slogan.
@@SprayJones I'm not that familiar with shingles, and their quality. Had never heard of Elk shingles before.
What brands do you consider to be just a marketing slogan?
I've only ran into ONE white shingle roof in my life. It is in Provo UT. The shingles seemed to last TWICE as long as dark shingles. And the lady says here a/c bill is extremely low, and her house stays cool.
What about if there’s a roof leak with spray foam on the bottom of the roof deck. Would closed or open cell be better from that standpoint? I would think with closed cell you might not know there’s a leak and the capillary action of the deck material could cause more damage (potentially larger area anyway)? Open cell I guess you’d see the water damaged foam and be able to track to origin of the leak? Maybe it’s a small potential risk but I’m interested in what the pros/cons would be in that situation.
Great video with research!
Thank you!
Is this the magazine?
It doesn't show a March 2002 publication. First publication is April 2002 ...
I'd like to see the article?
I have it in PDF. Which one to be precise?
@@SprayJones 👍👍
I love being precise ... lol
Here is the site I thought was the site for the referenced publication
www.professionalroofing.net/Issues?page=18
To be precise I'd like both the article pdf ... and if you have the guy's study pdf that as well.
I have sprayed under-my roof deck with open cell, but my house still get very hot in the summer time, i have been considering spraying the top ceiling Joist too... would I need to ventilate my attic too? Or is this something you recommend?
I dont have central air, I have mini ductless units in my house
You leave the attic alone. You have to control heat coming into the home via sunlight, and then force warm air downward via ceiling fans.
@@SprayJones it is still pretty hot in attic. Would the ceiling fans cause the hot air to come down and be cooled off through the day?
@@SprayJones your saying to not spray the ceiling floor?
It an unfinished attic.
Do you have any such study that was done in the South? We build in the DFW Metroplex and may have our first issue with a manufacture voiding their warranty to to spray foam on the decking. Great information!
Florida State has a whole report that can be found on line that discusses shingle life. However, they reference the studies that I mention in this video.
Also Elk Shingles has a report of shingle warranty and the use of SPF. This applies to Texas and southern climates.
@@SprayJones Thank you so much for the prompt response. I will look them up. I'm in the middle of reading a study on Humidity levels in Foam encapsulated homes in semi conditioned spaces. their test was done in South Carolina. I haven't finished the article, but I noticed some temperature readings that may contradict your findings. here's a link to this study: www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1344250 most of it is over my head, I just found your channel last night, but I'm wondering if you have a video addressing humidity issues? Thanks again for the response.
@@cartermahanay5947 Humidity of a function of the HVAC system. All we do is provide an airtight envelope. After that you need a properly balanced system.
Look at my video on "can a home be too tight". Check out energy wise structures.com
@@SprayJones Funny you should mention energywise. They've done the engineered duct design on every home we've built! We even used to do their "Guaranteed Savings" warranty with the sub meter and everything. No one ever came close to filing a claim, so we discontinued the program to save on costs. we also switched to flex duct VS the Rigid pipe as we determined the cost/benefit ratio didn't work for us.
Black or dark shingles are the only ones available in my area. White is not an option. I am sure this keeps the shingles flowing out the retailers door because of the lower life expectancy. Not having white as an options, I went with a white metal roof. Never looked back.
Spray Jones thank you so much for our very informative videos. Keep them coming.
Quick question. I’m going to build my own home and had decided on spray close cell foam untill my new neighbor told me that he wished he didn’t use spray foam because he’s having issues with his bathroom vents and kitchen vend because his house is so air tight. Any ideas how to fix this issue? Any help would be much appreciated.
I have a video on air tight homes. Please watch it for all questions to be answered.
Average temperature may be less important than the highest temperature hit (temperature extremes) with vented vs unvented roofs. Was there a max temperature hit quoted in the study?
What chamber number with your fusion gun do u mostly use?
01 4242
Question: for closed cell foam spray with unvented attics, how is home moisture resolved? Is there a negative affect on the interior of the attic due to moisture build up? Thanks for your videos. Great info
No there is not a moisture issue. if you want to see more watch video #3 of the unvented roof series I did. It is in the playlists for cathedral ceilings. I go over the stats on temp and humidity.
Thank you for the information. Out of curiosity, is there a need to put a barrier between the roof decking and the foam in the event that the roofing media fails and the roof decking needs to be replaced? Such as possibly installing poly or tar paper prior to installing the roof sheeting? Also, if spray foam is a way insurance companies try and void a warranty, what is Zip-R sheathing doing? Is it doing the same thing when installed on a roof?
We always want tight bonding of the foam to the roof deck. If you have an intermediary it will only open the door to the issues you stated.
Zip sheathing is a great product and it is changing the industry for the better. You are correct that the shingle companies will need to address this product behind theirs. In short time to get with the times.
Stay subbed, I have 25 new videos coming out over 90 days that will answer a lot of these types of questions.
@@SprayJones i was watching a UA-cam video where someone had spray foam applied and then bats over it. The bats ended up getting soaked with moisture. What would cause this? Would that be a capillary break or where spray foam was not properly applied allowing cold air to meet the hot side of the room? Just curious.
@@diyhomeowner3879 Air leakage. The building is not sealed. The foam is too thin and not consistent enough to do its job. Flash and batt is a huge problem and should be banned!
@@SprayJones i feel bad for the guy. Building a barndominium at about 3000-4000 sq ft and the drywall just got finished. Now I think it will all have to come down and be redone.
@@diyhomeowner3879 Stupid costs money. This flash and batt is a danger because it sets the foam install up to fail easily.
Where are you Located at what States
Canada
Great video
Thanks for the visit
Are the dap foam kits as good as hiring a professional?
No way no how. Low pressure mix.
You would think that if the attic of a house that has been foamed prooerly and the temperature of the attic is the return air of the ac then the attic should be cool when the ac is running and therefore the roof sheeting plus shingles should be cooler
They are exactly that. The shingles have no heat behind them and are only what direct sunlight can make them.
@SprayJones so if the shingles rely on heat to bond together and they aren't hot enough due to the attic temp, wouldn't that alow for wind to tear them off or blow them up during a rain storm
@@piusnevitt9711 Sorry this is silly. Go sit in the sun for a bit and see how cold you are.
@@SprayJones with an airconditioner blowing on me. Sure
Have you heard of anyone with closed cell sprayed to the roof deck in the US ,getting a warranty denial overturned by using the Magnusson Moss warranty act?
No, I don't know what that is.
20 years ago when i reshingled my roof, i went with the lightest colour i could find, a beige like wood colour. It doesn’t take scientific research to know that lighter colours don’t get as hot in the sun.
Correct. But we have ever stupid people being born and running government.
@Spray Jones Hello. My concern is about having roof sheathing between 2 vapor barriers, the closed cell spray foam and the tar paper and shingles. I thought that would create a situation where you would get rot from moisture not being able to escape or more importantly dry rot from being too dry. What are your thoughts on this?
No issue what so ever. Tar paper and shingles are not adhered to the roof. They are external drainage and weather barriers..
Watch 4 part series on non vented roofs to learn more. I go over that in detail in part 3.
@@SprayJones thank you for your time. I covered my entire roof with Grace ice and water Shield. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. Would your answer still be the same? Again, thank you for your time I know you must be a very busy man
@@SprayJones please disregard my additional question. I found the video series and specific video you referred me to. Thank you for your valuable time
@@kpk1014 It depends on whether it is diffusion open membrane or not.
what is the type of foam that is used in this video?
Closed cell
I see vapour barriers on top of all the walls in the video,i taught you didn’t need a vapour barrier when using spay foam?
It doesn't.... that is roughed in because few people make up their minds during the framing stage.
Ok thanks
I would have thought vented attics would have reduced the temp by more than just 3%. Great video and well referenced. It obviously makes sense white is better than black shingles but esthetics will probably trump scientific efficiency with homeowners sadly.
Well said.
That makes total sense that if the attic underneath the shingles/sheathing is cooler (because the foam keeps it from heating up), then the shingles can cool off more quickly once out of the direct sunlight. @Spray Jones, has there been arbitration/court decisions where the shingle manufacturers have been forced to admit the facts shown in this video?
@@ScottHz Not that I am aware of. Courts are corrupt right now and I am sure they could "buy" their way out of it...
Hi Mr. Spray Jones.
Down here in WI. Spraying foam can be challenging when’s this time of year. Cold. Frost. Humidity. What’s the best way to heat up building. Like a pole shed. I run a Val 6 inferred with fans. During the day. When the sun goes down I shut down the heat.but leave fans run all night. I leave a door and windows open. What’s your thoughts. How can I improve or do better with what I have. I heard indirect heat with venting and plumbing. But Im sorry can’t afford to buy. Are you apart of the SFWW. page on Facebook. Any advice will help. Thanks for your time.
indirect fired frost-fighter. Diesel burning. 500,000 BTU.
I’ve seen a new house get built 8 years ago they didn’t put any vents on the roof (turbine, ridge vent etc) only the soffit had vents, the attic would get really hot in the summer, it only had insulation on the attic floor, right now the shingles look 20 plus years old , which means the temperature of the sheathing is important, spraying foam on the roof deck will not allow the roof sheathing to cool down thus over heating the shingles which will lead to premature wear
Did you even watch this video??
Fact: new houses are built with the cheapest f'in shingles on the planet. If they look 20 years old after 8 years it is because the builders don't give two flying fiddlesticks about you or your home. The shingles only have to last long enough for you to buy the building...they might as well paint them on. Watch the video and keep learning.
the major concern is JOT single degradation/lifespan, its the decking, esp if it gets wet- closed does contract nd over time the seal has NOT airtight; moreover, if sheathing gets wet from a roof leaK, you wont notice it and it wont be able to dry out to the inside
Can't take you seriously with all thee typing errors. Go have another scotch and leave the building science to those who know.
Important point to remember... This study was performed in CANADA which is considerably cooler than southern U.S.
Rose's tests where done in Champaign Illinois. The entire report is USA based.
My roof shingles had their edges curling up. I checked on the price of a new roof. Over $4,000. I went to Lowe's and looked for a sealer to get me buy until I had the money to install a new roof. I found a product called Roofguard 700 White. I purchased 20 gallons. I rolled the sealer uphill under the shingles to flatten them back out. I used 6oz. fiberglass in bad spots. My attic became dramatically cooler in the summer lowering my air conditioning bill about $60 per month. Every other year, I apply a new layer. That figures out to be about $50 per year. After 14 years, I still haven't replaced my roof. The coating is getting to be a solid layer. All my neighbors have gotten new roofs due to hail damage. Mine has little depressions but no real damage.
Great feedback.
Do you have sprayfoam on the backside of the roof decking
@@piusnevitt9711 Because my house was built in 1953, I have a conventional roof with 14"+ cellulose insulation in the attic Since my roof is white, that makes a vast amount of difference.
isn't the real issue moisture not heat , effect on wood/OSB decking ??
Yes, you are correct. Moisture from the exterior not the interior. The shingle life question is a big one tho.
Code enforcement... always the last people to use logic...
Thats what happens when panels of experts are truly interested in corporate interests, thats why these "experts" still promote R-Values knowing they're horse shit
Spray Jones rocks....
I have built with Sips....basically same thing. You don't need venting, and frankly, why anyone building a medium to high end house would NOT foam the roof or use sip roofs is a mystery to me. It is a farce to require all sorts of SEER this, or efficiency that for your HVAC, and then run all your duct work in an uninsulated attic. Just more "trust the science" I guess.
Owens Corning had white shingles several years ago and people loved them so they took them off the market. 🤔
Thanks for watching.
Used Open cell spray foam about 8 inches thick on underside of roof decking with 30# felt and 30 year shingles. The light tan colored shingles are now brittle and many blew off during the recent wind storm. The shingles are 13 years old and all need to be replaced. Zone 2 Central Texas. Haven't looked under the tar paper yet.... super worried about what I may find. If I could do it over again I'd do a vent or double decker roof. My current experience in the real world is contradictory to your alleged "facts".
I have seen the cheapest shingles BP makes installed on a conventional vented roof fail after 10 years, blow off every wind storm over 40 miles per hour all the while claiming a 25 year warranty on their product.
Don't generalize on specific a instance of failure. You blame the SPF but you don't have the data on that. The science in the reports I present are raw data showing otherwise. If you cannot or will not learn then get off my channel.
Do you have any good references for spray foam in the Grand Rapids Michigan area
No. Sorry.
I would say this to if I sold spray foam
Yah, it's not like we are living this. Just come on here and call me a liar direct, don't beat around the narcissist bush.
Buy metal roofs. They have a recycle value when they’ve been removed. They far more durable and repairable. Also in my area fire resistance is a plus.
They are very good
Not aesthetically pleasing and noise.
They don't look nice.
@@markhoffman noisy too
However, the researchers were not comparing unvented roofs, which included spray foam. It's a big logical jump to go from unvented to unvented plus spray foam.
Sure, you would be a proponent of spray foam, that's how you make your living.
I'm not suggesting that you believe spray foam is detrimental to roofs, but you push it anyway, I'm suggesting that your opinion is just that, opinion.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Helps the channel.
Very interesting videos. It is great to insulate walls and ceilings, but concrete floors on the ground also need insulation.
Is it possible to install spray foam (XPS, EPS 120) on the ground under the concrete floor to replace the insulation boards? If possible, how is the required thickness and strength of the layer ensured? Thanks!
What about in Texas ? You sure about that?? White shingles?? Who has those??
Boom! Anther red-pill moment, at least for me!
Very good. Wait until we start the 4 part series on roofs and SPF.
You can’t trust anybody anymore. Nobody takes ownership of there work. Always looking for something else to blame. That’s the sign of our times. I just use common sense now.
Okay, so who wants a white roof??? Really, that isn't even a possibility? Have you ever had a customer with premature shingle failure?
No premature failures due to SPF.
I have seen shingles fail because a lot of other reasons that have nothing to do with us.
Probably fine in Canada. But Texas??? On a black shingle? Or any Southern Hemisphere states?? We’re talking roofs that reach 200 degrees just in spring time. We have to address all construction by hemispheres the same way we do plants we pick for our homes. It’s different everywhere. And let’s be honest nobody is going to do white shingles. What we really need is more metal roofs and a new decking material invented
There is a lot of data on spray foam roofs for texas, florida, nevada, arizona, and so on. When I trained at Demilec in Houston they taught SPF non vented exclusively. The USA is 25 years ahead of other parts of Canada and Europe. I can and will only put so much supporting info into one video.
I will be doing a video probably for Feb on vaulted ceilings and supporting that with some very interesting building science studies. So stick around.
@@SprayJones sounds good. Also curious. Would a metal roof solve all problems that could possibly arise, that older builders keep referring too? or does it come with its own set of new problems ?
@@D8099. Metal roofs are very good and eliminate the life cycle argument.
@@SprayJones awesome. Thank you so much.