I liked Joe Bugner. I remember all his fights from Cooper onwards. The British media didn't like him and they didn't waste time trying to put him down whenever they had the chance. The man stood toe to toe with the supreme best boxers on the planet and anyone that stood there like that deserves high respect.
He really did fight the greats but never got the credit he deserved, I think that may have been part of him not seeming to have the necessary desire to win.
Absolutely! 70s was the best era for the heavyweight division. So many great fighters, and the division was deeper than it ever been before or after. The next closest decade for best heavyweights was the 90s, but 70s was better
Joe Bugner was a pretty good heavyweight boxer who was among the very best Britain produced. He was very much underrated and unfortunately fought in one of the toughest eras of boxing when, Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others reigned supreme. He handled himself really well against Sonny Liston when sparring. He also rocked Joe Frazier with an uppercut and again fought an excellent fight with the nod going to Joe. He had a great physique but lacked punching power but had stamina and a solid chin.
@@ravenaussie3760 Yes Bunger was born in Szoreg, Hungary, and after the Soviet invasion, he immigrated to the UK and in terms of boxing was the product of Britain.
After a period of inactivity, Bugner could have a chosen a easier opportunity for his comeback than Shavers. He picked up his career in the uk after this and eventually lost to Frank Bruno. The last time he fought was in Australia where he fought Bonecrusher Smith for the WBO Heavyweight championship. Although not in the same league as Ali, Frazier and Foreman he was still a very difficult opponent. Well done on a great career Joe.
yea, Lord, not a good choice in Shavers. The general public wont rate Bruno beating big Joe, but that was actually a great performance by Bruno, as Joe said "You had to be good to stop me!" he was right
His fight against Smith was the lesser WBF title, but still impressive he won a minor world title at near 50. And yeah during his 80s comeback Joe was lackluster, Shavers was a terrible choice to come back to. And foreshadowed his disappointing fights to come.
An ex bareknuckle heavyweight/pro boxer who has sparred with the best and fougonht some top guys in the ring and the cobbles, rarely if at all losing; he said Bugner is the hardest individual he's ever come across!
Reading the comments boxer's get more respect after they have retired then they did during their careers I remember no one had a good word to say about Joe
Shavers always came of as a nice guy in interviews but in every fight he holds behind the head and then throws a vicious right uppercut that's how he got the 1st knockdown against bugner and many more
Man Earnie Shavers hit hard, you can just hear the sound of his big punches when they connect. That being said, Earnie didn't have particularly fast hands and regarded a jab as "what's that?" Given his technique of stalking and throwing bombs he was effective because of his extreme power, boxing people rate him as the hardest puncher of all-time even above Foreman.
what makes boxers great is taking on competition that is equal or better and defeating them. Joe bugner fought the best of his time, Muhammad ali, Earnie Shavers, Joe frazier, chuck wepner,ronny lyle, Greg Page, Frank Bruno, James smith, and more. If anything the guy was managed right, He fought all the greats of his time and never backed down. Thats called boxing.
Gotta give props to Bugner he fought about everyone there was to fight back then, twice with ALi, Frazier etc. If the Bug had a big punch it would have been lights out for a lot of people he faced. Gotta love a fighter who lays it all in the ring.
Apparently a guy died after fighting him ( think it was a punch) when coming up though the amateurs, always reminded me of that film with John Wayne ( the quite man) l remember reading about It and it never left him. He was Hungarian, and escape though bared wire with his family as a boy from Eastern Europe, whilst under Soviet control Hope lm wrong but pretty sure lm right, that's why he seamed to always hold back, great boxer , better than copper, but treated disgraceful by some of my countrymen, he stood toe to toe with the best one of the greatest heavyweights of all time vastly uderrated Australia gain was our lost
Marvelous Marvin Hagler got it right when commentating on a Harrison fight ... he kept referring to him as 'Audrey'! (Ps the incorrect spelling of 'marvellous' is part of Hagler's legal name).
Audley Harrison was loaded with talent, a big man who had speed and boxing skill. His career was a disappointment. He lost fights that he should have won, to Dominic Guinn and then to Michael Sprott. He was 39 years old when he was stopped by David Haye. To his credit, he knocked out Sprott in their rematch 3 years after their first fight.
Had the pleasure of meeting Aussie Jo back in '94 when he was a very special guest at our Australian Army boxing night at Kapooka - Wagga NSW ...Top fella..
I saw Joe sparring at the Jimmy Ellis Gym on Main Street in Venice, California. Joe was wearing headgear, and this sparring partner almost as big as he was, hit him in the side of the head so hard, it sounded like an axe hitting a tree. Joe just blinked and continued sparring. That punch, well, a lot of guys would have been knocked out. I'd have probably been killed if it was me. He was a total professional. It was just a day at the office for him.
It was a few ring-leaders in the media who crushed Joe's name into the dirt. The millions of British fans just followed them like sheep, wrecking his career and his name. He never made the money he deserved because of them, which is why he was forced to come out of retirement when he was way passed it. It took a lot of guts to carry on, when he kept getting booed in his own country.
Bugner was unpopular with British fans because he was not really British and retired Henry Cooper, who was very popular in what many thought was an unfair decision by a referee with an agenda. You did not have to be told that by the media of be a sheep for that to be the case. I am also not quite sure how the British media had anything to do with the money Bugner made in big fights against the likes of Ali twice and Frazier, who in his case came to London to fight.
Joe B was born Hungarian, then became "British", then became "Australian" (where he called himself "Aussie Joe"). It's difficult to tell what his "own country", as you put it, was.
Joe was a very game bloke and fought the best, losing against them but he didn't dodge anyone that's for sure. He just wasn't British, he was Hungarian. I don't know why the British in general never took to him as an outsider, but he wasn't at all popular.
Wow ! I remember this. I was there. Undercard on one of Salvador Sanchez's last fights a few months before he was to die in a tragic car accident. Larry Holmes also showed up to promote his upcoming fight with Gerry Cooney by sparring three exhibition bouts before addressing the crowd. 1982... Hard to believe it's been that long ago.
respect to Bugner in this one. He took some hard shots but he was getting some inside shots in himself. I think Shavers was on his way to a win anyway, but you can never tell. Two tough hombres...
Shavers has the highest KO percentage in the heavyweight division. Apart from Sam Langford (a boxer from the Dempsey era), Shavers may very well be the best heavyweight boxer never to have won a championship.
I remember watching him whip Ali's a$$ for 14 rounds, and then saw the bout handed to the champ on the basis of a final round flurry...I guess to become the champ, you really do have to BEAT the champ.
@@chokkan7 In the mid-70s, Ali had won several rather controversial fights. IMO, Ali lost against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton (in their second fight) and Ernie Shavers. Ali's last fight of any real quality was the second Spinks fight. He should have retired after that one.
Shavers was the much smaller man on this occasion, he looked like he was chopping an old oak tree down. !! Respect to Bugnar he was always a tough opponent.
Tough break for Bugner, who was standing up to Shavers's power before getting cut. In my opinion, at least, if Bugner hadn't been cut, he probably would have outlasted Shavers in a test of stamina. Shavers was known for unloading overwhelming attacks in the early rounds, projecting massive power in all his shots. Generally, if Shavers didn't finish the job by the fourth or fifth round, he was winded and vulnerable. Bugner certainly displays a great chin in this fight, as he withstands bombs that would have knocked most guys unconscious. Something important to keep in mind here is that this is Bugner's first serious fight in five years. That's a long period of inactivity. No doubt Bugner was ring rusty on this night. In retrospect, it's obvious that he made a big mistake in facing a formidable fighter like Shavers in his first bout after such a long period of inactivity. A senseless mistake, really.
I agree that Joe was well and truly in this fight at the time of the stoppage. Had the fight continued my money would have been on Bugner for the reasons you mention.
Spot on. Its quite baffling. The UK customarily attracted american heavyweights over in the 80's.Joe shouldve eased his way back in. What he did in Australia beating tillis,bey and page was exceptional....Foremanesque....but baffling again that he signs to fight bruno and comes in 25lbs overweight....up there with the decision to fight shavers when he did
@@Anthony-Testicali I agree that Bugner's 1982 UK comeback should have been handled in the same manner as Foreman's 1987 return. By this I mean Bugner should have been given, maybe, ten or 11 easy fights before facing a world ranked contender. For whatever reason, in 1983 Joe was rushed into action against Marvis Frazier. Given Bugner's style (overly defensive, low punch output rate, and inconsistent punching power), the swarming Frazier was not a good choice of opponent, and Joe dropped a decision. I guess Bugner's UK promoter at the time didn't want to invest too much money in his comeback. That may explain why the promoter and Bugner settled for the first contender offered to them (Marvis Frazier). That's a shame, because had Bugner been able to fight several of the other lower top-ten heavyweights of 1983, such as Tex Cobb, James Tillis, Reynaldo Snipes, and Trevor Berbick, he probably would have won, and then cashed out with a title fight against one of the champions.
@@Anthony-Testicali Something else about Bugner's 1982-83 UK comeback that must be considered is his lack of popularity with the English public. That may explain why Bugner's promoter was hesitant to give Joe a carefully orchestrated, long-term build-up of the sort that Foreman got in the late 1980s. That's just my guess.
Couple of tough SOB's. Bugner had a granite chin to have taken those shots. Shavers was a great puncher. Both would easily beat the faux champs of today.
***** Shavers would certainly have a puncher's chance against Vlad (especially younger Vlad) but older, smarter Vlad would jab-and-hold him all night until he ran out of steam, and then kill him with 1-2s. Bugner would get wiped out.
Calm down, slugger. I wasn't referring to Vitali at all-- I was talking about the younger version of Vlad (you know, the one that got knocked out by guys like Corrie Sanders and Lamont Brewster) in contrast to "older" Vlad (the one who hasn't been down in nearly a decade).Sorry if I was unclear.
***** No worries at all-- I've seen those guys too! The ones who would bet their lives that some of the slow 200-lb boxers of yesteryear would "destroy" the Klitschkos...
@@Doordas uhh..no lol shavers was way harder of a puncher lol..sry but no one had the right hand like shavers..lol study ur boxing foo..even Ali said that himself when asked who was the strongest puncher he faced..so i take Ali's word on it.
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuruHe did hit Ali, they actually fought twice, it's not only the famous fight of the knockout, first time went 15 rounds and Ali smashed Liston and of course sonny punched him
For the umpteenth time Shavers got away with illegally holding an opponent behind the neck while simultaneously throwing the right upper cut. That's the same illegal maneuver Shavers used to knock out Jimmy Ellis. Bugner was able to get up from that punch because of his good chin. If you watch Shavers' other fights you'll see him attempt that same maneuver again and again when he gets in close.
Joe Bugner was a very good fighter. British never forgave him for a points win over Henry Cooper in Coopers final fight. Bugner took the British, European and Empire titles, I Henry's final defence. Bugner was a good fighter with a devastating punch but, like Max Baer before him, killed an opponent and he never unleashed his bombs again, but got by with boxing skills and his granite chin.
Respect to Joe Bugner - He was a true Champion - He was often criticised for lacking natural aggression in the ring but Bugner's heart was never in boxing after, Ulric Regis, died from brain injuries soon after being outpointed by Bugner at London's Shoreditch Town Hall. and it's been said that Bugner never punched his full weight after that. The 23-year-old Bugner lost a twelve-rounder by decision to both Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. Although the scorecards in the Ali fight were somewhat lopsided, Bugner fought well. After their bout, Ali declared that Bugner was capable of being world champion and Ali's trainer Angelo Dundee agreed. The fight with Frazier in July 1973 at Earls Court in London was deemed a classic. After being knocked down by a tremendous left hook in the tenth round, Bugner arose and staggered Frazier to close the round. Frazier took the decision, but only narrowly, and arguably only George Foreman and Muhammad Ali ever gave Frazier a harder fight. In 1998 Bugner's long-term tenacity finally gave him a world crown, the WBF version of the heavyweight crown - by defeating former WBA World Heavyweight Champion James "Bonecrusher" Smith. At the age of 48 years and 110 days, it made him the oldest ever boxer to hold a world championship belt - RESPECT TO JOE
Joe Bugner was the inspiration for "Glass Joe" in the Punch Out video game from the 80's. First thing I thought of upon seeing the thumbnail, lol. Kind of unfair to the real Joe. Tough cat who fought in era of absolute giants. And everyone had a glass jaw vs Shavers; the dude had the friggin death touch, man.
@@dustylover100 I played it in a pub in Kent in the 90’s! It was called mike Tyson’s punch out. I got to Tyson a few times but he was literally impossible to beat!
Bugner was born in Hungary and left when he was 5. He was raised in the UK, and represented the UK as a boxer. He even referred to Britain as "my country". Bob Hope was born in Britain, that doesn't mean he was British.
I vaguely recall that Bugner was part Hungarian, possibly a contributing factor as to why the British press and public did not embrace him nearly as much as Cooper.
@TheEnlightened77 Bugner was an oddity. He was actually capable of hitting pretty hard but the style of fighting that he learned as an amateur was an upright one. So it was instinct for him not to bend his body very much or use any shoulder / body roll to generate power when he was hooking. He was effectively an arm puncher in most of his fights. It was rare, but on occasion he got mad and let the punches go. His KO of Richard Dunn is an example.
Monster puncher. He was only right over the heavyweight weight limit though correct? I want to say I seen him listed at 202lbs for a fight. I Could be wrong.
Bugner was the toughest and best white boxer of the 70s who went the distance with Lyle, Frazier and many others that none of the other white boxers who challenged them could accomplish this much punishment, skill and technique with these opponents as he never got the credit he deserved.
I agree a fight between shavers and foreman would have been something to see, may be not the most skilled or fast of boxers but two of the hardest hitters of all time, easily in the top 10
@Simon P i think foreman would have won, foreman did have a better chin, only Ali stopped him through his boxing skills and game plan. Foreman fault boxers like Frazier, Norton who had the same build and style similar to shavers, he was brilliant with them type of boxers. Even in his come back when he was in his forties against Evander Hollyfield Morrison and Moorer they only wobbled foreman. I personally would say Foreman would win
From what I can research, this is only one of two times in Bugner's entire career he was knocked down. The other was by Joe Frazier in their 1973 bout.
Website guy Yes, I agree, they all had their weird if not cheating tactics and behaviours... Although I sincerely doubt Holyfield's headbutts were on purpose. Some are the result of two heads clashing, the other guy getting the worst of it: see the first Tyson fight. After the first butt, resulting in the opening of the main cut on Tyson's eyebrow, comes the second butt (more visible on screen), causing Tyson to crouch in pain. That time, it's claimed Holy butted him. But instead, it's Tyson's head litterally smashing into Holy's head. My point of view.
Larry Merchant, he was always an a@shole. Go back and listen to him talk with Julio Cesar Chávez or Floyd Mayweather after one of their fights. Also notice that when he spoke of the cut on Joe's head, he mentioned that it was balding. He was always antagonistic and rude.
This was just before his UK comeback. Remember Joe beating Winston Allen - which was the start of the much celebrated rivalry with big Frank Bruno. Shavers was a bit like Bruno in as much as he had a huge punch but suspect stamina.
Always think stamina is really misunderstood. We have only so much energy and when it is spent it is spent. Every punch you throw makes you weaker. Shavers simply spent his early.
Earnie holds with the left, then delivers the right upper cut that finished jimmy ellis and many others, yet bugner survived 3 of them. say what you like about bugner, but he had a hell of a chin on him .....
Bugner withstood the same punch that sent Jimmy Ellis to la la land. Without the cut Bugner would probably have worn down Shavers like other fighters did
Hardest puncher of all time, based on what? Shavers was barely a small cruiser by modern's standards, fought under 200lbs and was barely over it in his career... Had a padded record full of light, small cans, with laughable losing records and already stopped before, and he never knocked out anyone good... I'm sure certain light-heavies from today hits harder than him, let alone cruisers and super-heavyweights... In my opinion he wasn't even the best puncher from his era, Foreman certainly was, and i know what Ali and few others said, i prefer to look at facts...
Ernie was doing some dirty business in that fight. The knock down came from Ernie holding head and introducing an upper cut. Then fight was ended by a head butt. The ref must have decided to take this fight off.
I grew up with Bugner from when he was 16 and I was 13 and he was like a brother to me. My comment is concerning this fight with Shavers and the management team he had at "this time". Knowing Joe and his history concerning management, I stand by my views. Shavers was a very big hitter and not the fight to take at such an early stage of a comeback. Joe was there for the money only, not for the love of boxing and it shows. And there wasn't a rematch, Why? Because Shavers hit too hard! Best.
For John Smith: Not sure why but I can't reply directly to your well-written and interesting "I don't recall Norton's opinion" post, so hope you come across this. In Norton's bio GOING THE DISTANCE, he doesn't go into any great detail about how hard Shavers hits, just the standard: "My next fight was against boxing's most murderous puncher"; "Suddenly, Shavers hit me with a thunderous left hook"; "Another of Shavers' potent punches had sent me back to the canvas"; "I was too out of it to even protest. Mills had done a good job and protected me from myself and Shavers". It's been a while since I read it so can't recall if he compared how hard his opponents hit elsewhere in the text, sorry. You make some excellent points but there just seems to be too many fighters claiming Shavers was the hardest hitter they faced to overlook the possibility. Tex Cobb said: "Nobody hits like Shavers. If anybody hit harder than Shavers, I'd shoot him. Earnie could punch you in the neck with his right hand and break your ankle." Ron Lyle said: "Hey man, that's the hardest I've ever been hit in my life. And George Foreman could punch, but none of them could hit like Earnie Shavers did." Joe Bugner said: "Best puncher, Ernie Shavers. He was an enormous puncher, but I have real issue with that fight because of a conversation Shavers and I had years later. Apparently Don King told Ernie to get me out of that ring, by any means necessary, and not to worry about disqualification." Bugner also named the strongest fighter he faced (Lyle); the hardest chin (Frazier); fastest hands and feet, best jab, and smartest (Ali).
Sk Ks - thanks for the reply. I actually forgot that I made a post re this clip. I appreciate the quoting of Norton's comments re Shavers - given the broader scope of Norton's opinions on all things boxing, the man came across as genuinely expressed and wholly rational/intellectual. .Norton was one of the few to pick Ali against Foreman, noting that he saw openings against George but was simply too "tight" to fully capitalise. Norton did not believe that Ali would be as afflicted (with nerves) as Norton was. In the early going, Norton was performing very well against Foreman but the first truly solid connection seemed to bring Norton undone (exacerbated by Norton's own lack of belief in himself). Sure, the testimonials of Shaver's opp. should not be dismissed out of hand but I still have my reservations as per the reasons I outlined. Certainly it's not to say that Shavers wasn't a devastating puncher who belongs among the truly elite hitters - in my opinion, he sure does. Just back on to Norton for a moment - some may bang on Ken's chin butt he was, after all, knocked by guys who might be ranked in the top 5 punchers of all time (excluding the Garcia KO earlier in Norton's career). Norton was interesting in that he could take a decent shot very well....up to a certain level of power. Let's say that Norton could take a shot that rated 8/10 on the punch Richter Scale quite well but anything beyond that, Kenny fell apart somewhat and it was slippery slope thereafter. That extra turn of the power notch made all the difference and guys like Foreman, Shavers and Cooney could push the needle that bit further. Otherwise, Ken could bang along quite nicely with guys like Ali and Holmes without too much disturbance if any. I've been studying clips of Louis, Liston, Foreman, Tyson etc. working out on the heavy bag to get the feel of their primary punch power. All major hitters and the ridiculous impact force of their punches is palpable. For dramatic effect, Foreman's work on the bag (Dick Saddler holding same) is awe inspiring. Slow, persistent mono punching (right or left) but unbelievably powerful all the same. The dent made in the bag by Foreman is uniformly noted by commentators - but George was hitting the same spot with the same punch over and over and over again and I wouldn't say that Saddler's recoiling reactions weren't perhaps a tad contrived to enhance the impression of Foreman's power. Again, not saying Foreman didn't hit like a Mack Truck - I wouldn't be fussed holding the heavy bag while Foreman was blasting away at it. I know Ali deliberately stayed away from Foreman's heavy bag workouts - the Greatest had plenty of self belief but the vision of Foreman modifying the shape of heavy bag would be enough to bring the most confident of fighters undone. Liston's demonstrated power in the ring and on the heavy bag are highly impressive. Unlike Foreman, Sonny's absolute sheer power is not unleashed with each and every shot - rather, it is tempered by Liston's deference to and execution of considerable boxing skills. Liston hits the bag with an ease that appears disproportional to the apparent end point force yielded. If Liston swung for the fences from opening bell as Foreman often did, Liston might've had even more KOs in faster time than he did but, in balance, we might've seen Liston eventually gas and expire as quickly as the young Foreman did. Certainly, against the likes of the elusive Eddie Machen, without securing an earlier rd KO, Foreman might've floundered in the later rounds as he did against Jimmy Young. Not so with Liston, who metered himself very well over 12 rounds against Machen while still landing heavy artillery throughout. No right, wrong, definitive opinions or answers here. Quite simply, the process of simply chewing these things over is interesting enough in itself. PS - Alas, with all that, I forgot to say that I can't find ANY clips of Shavers seriously working the heavy bag. Too bad but I will optimistically hold that something must be out there.. Thanks
John Smith"No right, wrong, definitive opinions or answers here. Quite simply, the process of simply chewing these things over is interesting enough in itself. " 100% agree, and thanks for the info.
Bugner was the guy who could "talk a good fight." His fight against Frazier was his best. World Class fighter sure, but came second against the very best.
good old joe,beat bonecrusher smith to win the wbf heavyweight title aged 48,oldest ever to win a title belt...ok nobody has heard of it but still,48 yr old and still knocking them down,ernie ended up as a doorman in blackpool uk,still looked fit an well last time i remember seeing him.
Earnie Shavers -- white trunks, Joe Bugner -- blue trunks. Gee thanks, I'd never have been able to tell them apart otherwise. You still see the same thing on boxing telecasts today -- one guy is black, the other is white, but nobody dares identify them that way.
he knew Bugner had a good jab and a belting right hook... if you remember on he caught Joe Frazier with it towards the end of the 13th round... Frazier was happy to hear the bell.
I enjoy following the boxing in the 60s- 80s era much more than today. I guess I have to give Ali credit for that. But there was a whole different thing then. They looked so much better than today. Maybe because they had longer amateur careers except from some boxers
Fun Fact: Bugner won the WBF title in 1998 at the age of 48 over James "Bonecrusher" Smith. However, he once lost to Marvis Frasier so this guy was all over the place.
3:43 is a 'trick' I've seen Shavers use before: holding behind the head and bringing in the uppercut. Not strictly legal, but effective Frazier actually knocked Bugner unconscious, but refused to hit him while he was defenseless, or Joe woulda KOed him. It's in the 10th round of their fight. The corner is all that is holding Bugner up
+Joe Johnson Seen that on UA-cam. Frazier showed just the right amount of compassion (if indeed there is room for compassion in professional boxing). Enough to beat his opponent without killing him but not enough to end up regretting it and getting clobbered . If Frazier had landed one of his knock out blows whilst Bugner was in that position he might well have killed him. Frazier paid for it by denying himself the knock out. In contract Gerry Cooney used Ken Nortons head as a speed ball when he had him in the same position. I saw that fight live on TV and remember thinking that I would have done the same as Cooney. But now older and wiser I compare these two incidents think that the two contrasting actions between Frazier and Cooney prove that Frazier was the better man.
Earnie Shavers was so unlucky that he didn't win the world heavyweight crown.Earnie rocked Muhammad Ali, thirty-nine years ago and he dropped Larry Holmes, thirty-seven years ago.Earnie Shavers' big right was lethal and it is a shame that he didn't get a chance of winning the world heavyweight title.
I liked Joe Bugner. I remember all his fights from Cooper onwards. The British media didn't like him and they didn't waste time trying to put him down whenever they had the chance. The man stood toe to toe with the supreme best boxers on the planet and anyone that stood there like that deserves high respect.
He really did fight the greats but never got the credit he deserved, I think that may have been part of him not seeming to have the necessary desire to win.
Fiveo waf Did he kill a boxer in the ring earlier in his career and after that bout he was never the same fighter again or was that just a story?
I think that cooper was so popular with the british public that when bugner beat him, he was not liked for it.
He defeated Ulric Regis early in his career. Regis died later of brain injuries. Bugner later said it had not affected his boxing.
Bugner is still the only man to go the distance with both Ali and Frazier.
Bugner was a tough SOB. He fought the best and beat many good boxers. Much respect ✊
The Golden Age of the heavyweight division: Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Quarry, Bugner, Shavers, Young, Ellis. Love watching fights from back then.
It's the best! Lyle and Bonavena, too.👍
Absolutely! 70s was the best era for the heavyweight division. So many great fighters, and the division was deeper than it ever been before or after. The next closest decade for best heavyweights was the 90s, but 70s was better
Respect to Joe Bugner.. he fought all the big guns.. a huge man.. just wouldn’t go in for the kill.. held back.. make no mistake.. he was good..☝️☺️
Joe Bugner was a pretty good heavyweight boxer who was among the very best Britain produced. He was very much underrated and unfortunately fought in one of the toughest eras of boxing when, Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others reigned supreme. He handled himself really well against Sonny Liston when sparring. He also rocked Joe Frazier with an uppercut and again fought an excellent fight with the nod going to Joe. He had a great physique but lacked punching power but had stamina and a solid chin.
Lol, Britain didn't produce Bugner. He was born in Hungary.
@@ravenaussie3760 Yes Bunger was born in Szoreg, Hungary, and after the Soviet invasion, he immigrated to the UK and in terms of boxing was the product of Britain.
@@ravenaussie3760 He may not have been born in Britain, but he grew up there and trained there, so Britain was home for him.
@@TheEnlightened77 I suppose that's fair. Also, replying 11 years later is legendary.
@@GreatMewtwo I guess that's fair enough.
All respect Mr Bugner , you had balls as big as a prized Bull in my opinion
earnie shavers definitely has to be the hardest puncher to not win a title. but a pleasure to watch in the real days of boxing !
After a period of inactivity, Bugner could have a chosen a easier opportunity for his comeback than Shavers. He picked up his career in the uk after this and eventually lost to Frank Bruno. The last time he fought was in Australia where he fought Bonecrusher Smith for the WBO Heavyweight championship. Although not in the same league as Ali, Frazier and Foreman he was still a very difficult opponent. Well done on a great career Joe.
yea, Lord, not a good choice in Shavers. The general public wont rate Bruno beating big Joe, but that was actually a great performance by Bruno, as Joe said "You had to be good to stop me!" he was right
His fight against Smith was the lesser WBF title, but still impressive he won a minor world title at near 50. And yeah during his 80s comeback Joe was lackluster, Shavers was a terrible choice to come back to. And foreshadowed his disappointing fights to come.
Can't remember if it was Howard Cosell or someone else that once said 'Ernie Shavers could knock out a bus - if he could catch it...'
Joe our local lad,proud of this guy always❤❤
An ex bareknuckle heavyweight/pro boxer who has sparred with the best and fougonht some top guys in the ring and the cobbles, rarely if at all losing; he said Bugner is the hardest individual he's ever come across!
Who said?
Reading the comments boxer's get more respect after they have retired then they did during their careers I remember no one had a good word to say about Joe
He put up a game performance against Frank Bruno, which was widely acknowledged at the time, even though he was past his prime.
Shavers always came of as a nice guy in interviews but in every fight he holds behind the head and then throws a vicious right uppercut that's how he got the 1st knockdown against bugner and many more
Man Earnie Shavers hit hard, you can just hear the sound of his big punches when they connect. That being said, Earnie didn't have particularly fast hands and regarded a jab as "what's that?" Given his technique of stalking and throwing bombs he was effective because of his extreme power, boxing people rate him as the hardest puncher of all-time even above Foreman.
what makes boxers great is taking on competition that is equal or better and defeating them. Joe bugner fought the best of his time, Muhammad ali, Earnie Shavers, Joe frazier, chuck wepner,ronny lyle, Greg Page, Frank Bruno, James smith, and more.
If anything the guy was managed right, He fought all the greats of his time and never backed down. Thats called boxing.
Gotta give props to Bugner he fought about everyone there was to fight back then, twice with ALi, Frazier etc. If the Bug had a big punch it would have been lights out for a lot of people he faced. Gotta love a fighter who lays it all in the ring.
Apparently a guy died after fighting him ( think it was a punch) when coming up though the amateurs, always reminded me of that film with John Wayne ( the quite man) l remember reading about It and it never left him.
He was Hungarian, and escape though bared wire with his family as a boy from Eastern Europe, whilst under Soviet control
Hope lm wrong but pretty sure lm right, that's why he seamed to always hold back, great boxer , better than copper, but treated disgraceful by some of my countrymen, he stood toe to toe with the best one of the greatest heavyweights of all time vastly uderrated Australia gain was our lost
Us Brits used to criticise Bugner for being too safety first, that was until we saw Audley Bloody Harrison.
Don't disrespect A Train …. I remember Audley once saying 'you'd better get on board now because soon the train will be moving too fast'". LOL.
Ordinary Harrison.
Marvelous Marvin Hagler got it right when commentating on a Harrison fight ... he kept referring to him as 'Audrey'! (Ps the incorrect spelling of 'marvellous' is part of Hagler's legal name).
Audley Harrison was loaded with talent, a big man who had speed and boxing skill. His career was a disappointment. He lost fights that he should have won, to Dominic Guinn and then to Michael Sprott. He was 39 years old when he was stopped by David Haye. To his credit, he knocked out Sprott in their rematch 3 years after their first fight.
@@pukulu He never showed it!!! You can make claims about anything, he was no more than average with that amazing platform to start from.
Charle Shavers, a cousin, was a world class jazz trumpeter and arranger.
Didn't realise that. Charlie was a great player and a legend of the swing era.
Anyone who is not a professional boxer, has no right to comment on the courage, ability or character of these fighters. Just be in awe of them. 🙌
I'll comment however I fükken please, junior.
That uppercut that dropped Bugner would have knocked many heavyweights cold. What a chin that guy had.
Joe bugner was a genuine hard case
Not too many heavyweights would fire back at earnie shavers
Watch this! Shavers v Quarry. Ali messing with both Frazier AND foreman at the start is classic!
ua-cam.com/video/uZw1GxU5C_I/v-deo.html
Bugner is now in a nursing home in Australia, his long term memory totally gone. He was a tough guy, feared no one, and I wish him well.
Bugner was nothing to sneeze at. He had skills and a big punch.
Had the pleasure of meeting Aussie Jo back in '94 when he was a very special guest at our Australian Army boxing night at Kapooka - Wagga NSW ...Top fella..
fjbutch He sparred with his wife, old Aussie Joe, I don't like wife beaters, pure cowardice!
@@bobbythompson3544 STFU.... you idiot... dont know what you are talking about
Thank you very much 🤜🏼🤛🏼
I saw Joe sparring at the Jimmy Ellis Gym on Main Street in Venice, California. Joe was wearing headgear, and this sparring partner almost as big as he was, hit him in the side of the head so hard, it sounded like an axe hitting a tree. Joe just blinked and continued sparring. That punch, well, a lot of guys would have been knocked out. I'd have probably been killed if it was me. He was a total professional. It was just a day at the office for him.
Joe Bugner would fight anyone. Shavers was a man to be feared but big Joe stood and traded with him. 👍👍👍
It was a few ring-leaders in the media who crushed Joe's name into the dirt. The millions of British fans just followed them like sheep, wrecking his career and his name. He never made the money he deserved because of them, which is why he was forced to come out of retirement when he was way passed it. It took a lot of guts to carry on, when he kept getting booed in his own country.
Bugner was unpopular with British fans because he was not really British and retired Henry Cooper, who was very popular in what many thought was an unfair decision by a referee with an agenda. You did not have to be told that by the media of be a sheep for that to be the case.
I am also not quite sure how the British media had anything to do with the money Bugner made in big fights against the likes of Ali twice and Frazier, who in his case came to London to fight.
Joe B was born Hungarian, then became "British", then became "Australian" (where he called himself "Aussie Joe"). It's difficult to tell what his "own country", as you put it, was.
Joe was a very game bloke and fought the best, losing against them but he didn't dodge anyone that's for sure. He just wasn't British, he was Hungarian. I don't know why the British in general never took to him as an outsider, but he wasn't at all popular.
Wow ! I remember this. I was there. Undercard on one of Salvador Sanchez's last fights a few months before he was to die in a tragic car accident. Larry Holmes also showed up to promote his upcoming fight with Gerry Cooney by sparring three exhibition bouts before addressing the crowd. 1982... Hard to believe it's been that long ago.
Chava 😢😢😢
Jarvis Young that was The Nelson fight which was a fantastic bout
Yeah, that was a tragedy, what happened to Salvador Sanchez. He was shaping up to be truly great.
Bugner was one of the best Contenders around at the time. Congrats to Earnie.
I never saw Bugner as a contender to be honest.
respect to Bugner in this one. He took some hard shots but he was getting some inside shots in himself. I think Shavers was on his way to a win anyway, but you can never tell. Two tough hombres...
Joe Bugner was great.
Shavers has the highest KO percentage in the heavyweight division. Apart from Sam Langford (a boxer from the Dempsey era), Shavers may very well be the best heavyweight boxer never to have won a championship.
Yep
Yes And Ron Lyle-
@@jamesinwood4170 He certainly ranks right up there.
I remember watching him whip Ali's a$$ for 14 rounds, and then saw the bout handed to the champ on the basis of a final round flurry...I guess to become the champ, you really do have to BEAT the champ.
@@chokkan7 In the mid-70s, Ali had won several rather controversial fights. IMO, Ali lost against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton (in their second fight) and Ernie Shavers. Ali's last fight of any real quality was the second Spinks fight. He should have retired after that one.
I’m glad I ain’t the only person seeing how dirty this fight was.
More low blows than you see on an entire card! The knockdown was a classic hit-and-hold job!
Joe bugner was a good fighter.
Вот это действительно легенды бокса! Времена Великого Мухаммада Али! Настоящие профессионалы! Настоящие мужчины!
He was knocked out in his first professional fight of which he avenged but yes Joe could generally take a punch from the best.
Shavers was the much smaller man on this occasion, he looked like he was chopping an old oak tree down. !! Respect to Bugnar he was always a tough opponent.
You know people never rate bugner but to be fair to the man he went into the ring with the best and hardest hitters around that is no mean feet
in the best era foe overall heavyweights ever
Bugner was truly great. He had almost no amateur fights, he was simply a natural.
Shavers must hold the record for punch's below the belt.
Tough break for Bugner, who was standing up to Shavers's power before getting cut. In my opinion, at least, if Bugner hadn't been cut, he probably would have outlasted Shavers in a test of stamina. Shavers was known for unloading overwhelming attacks in the early rounds, projecting massive power in all his shots. Generally, if Shavers didn't finish the job by the fourth or fifth round, he was winded and vulnerable. Bugner certainly displays a great chin in this fight, as he withstands bombs that would have knocked most guys unconscious. Something important to keep in mind here is that this is Bugner's first serious fight in five years. That's a long period of inactivity. No doubt Bugner was ring rusty on this night. In retrospect, it's obvious that he made a big mistake in facing a formidable fighter like Shavers in his first bout after such a long period of inactivity. A senseless mistake, really.
I agree that Joe was well and truly in this fight at the time of the stoppage. Had the fight continued my money would have been on Bugner for the reasons you mention.
Spot on. Its quite baffling. The UK customarily attracted american heavyweights over in the 80's.Joe shouldve eased his way back in. What he did in Australia beating tillis,bey and page was exceptional....Foremanesque....but baffling again that he signs to fight bruno and comes in 25lbs overweight....up there with the decision to fight shavers when he did
@@Anthony-Testicali I agree that Bugner's 1982 UK comeback should have been handled in the same manner as Foreman's 1987 return. By this I mean Bugner should have been given, maybe, ten or 11 easy fights before facing a world ranked contender. For whatever reason, in 1983 Joe was rushed into action against Marvis Frazier. Given Bugner's style (overly defensive, low punch output rate, and inconsistent punching power), the swarming Frazier was not a good choice of opponent, and Joe dropped a decision.
I guess Bugner's UK promoter at the time didn't want to invest too much money in his comeback. That may explain why the promoter and Bugner settled for the first contender offered to them (Marvis Frazier). That's a shame, because had Bugner been able to fight several of the other lower top-ten heavyweights of 1983, such as Tex Cobb, James Tillis, Reynaldo Snipes, and Trevor Berbick, he probably would have won, and then cashed out with a title fight against one of the champions.
@@Anthony-Testicali Something else about Bugner's 1982-83 UK comeback that must be considered is his lack of popularity with the English public. That may explain why Bugner's promoter was hesitant to give Joe a carefully orchestrated, long-term build-up of the sort that Foreman got in the late 1980s. That's just my guess.
Couple of tough SOB's. Bugner had a granite chin to have taken those shots. Shavers was a great puncher. Both would easily beat the faux champs of today.
Klitchko's are not skilled. They rule because of the weakness of the division.
***** Shavers would certainly have a puncher's chance against Vlad (especially younger Vlad) but older, smarter Vlad would jab-and-hold him all night until he ran out of steam, and then kill him with 1-2s. Bugner would get wiped out.
Calm down, slugger. I wasn't referring to Vitali at all-- I was talking about the younger version of Vlad (you know, the one that got knocked out by guys like Corrie Sanders and Lamont Brewster) in contrast to "older" Vlad (the one who hasn't been down in nearly a decade).Sorry if I was unclear.
***** No worries at all-- I've seen those guys too! The ones who would bet their lives that some of the slow 200-lb boxers of yesteryear would "destroy" the Klitschkos...
mrkoolkevin Bugner went the distance with an in form Ali, I hardly think he would get " wiped out"
Bugner says this was the hardest shot he ever had to take, and given that he had 80 or so fights that's quite a claim.
As a big Tyson fan..i can even say nobody had a right like Shavers..it was the hardest right hand in the heavyweight division.
sunny liston was hardest ever !
@@Doordas uhh..no lol shavers was way harder of a puncher lol..sry but no one had the right hand like shavers..lol study ur boxing foo..even Ali said that himself when asked who was the strongest puncher he faced..so i take Ali's word on it.
@@coryanthony5134 Keep in mind Liston never hit Ali, so he can't comment on Shavers being harder...
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuruHe did hit Ali, they actually fought twice, it's not only the famous fight of the knockout, first time went 15 rounds and Ali smashed Liston and of course sonny punched him
@@lusianojwkwknan6640 The first fight was a RD 7 TKO, not 15 RDs.
Aussie Joe Bugner. I loved him when I was a kid.
Aussie Joe, via Hungary and the UK.
Earnie shaver is a goooood fighter
Bugner : Total legend.
based on?
Based on my opinion :-)
Leon 84 opinion worth less than....2 pennies
Leon 84 well said. Bugner is a legend
Maybe you meant to say :Sir H.Cooper was a legend ..
Bugner had a lot of heart ❤️
For the umpteenth time Shavers got away with illegally holding an opponent behind the neck while simultaneously throwing the right upper cut. That's the same illegal maneuver Shavers used to knock out Jimmy Ellis. Bugner was able to get up from that punch because of his good chin. If you watch Shavers' other fights you'll see him attempt that same maneuver again and again when he gets in close.
Joe Bugner was a very good fighter. British never forgave him for a points win over Henry Cooper in Coopers final fight. Bugner took the British, European and Empire titles, I Henry's final defence.
Bugner was a good fighter with a devastating punch but, like Max Baer before him, killed an opponent and he never unleashed his bombs again, but got by with boxing skills and his granite chin.
Bugner had the ability to beat them all, just didn't have that killer instinct. The very best couldn't knock him out! Kudos to a great.
This fight was interesting. To bad for that cut. Thanks for the upload.
Those upper cuts knocked out many opponents, Bugner had a granite chin, without the cut i could see him going the distance
Respect to Joe Bugner - He was a true Champion - He was often criticised for lacking natural aggression in the ring but Bugner's heart was never in boxing after, Ulric Regis, died from brain injuries soon after being outpointed by Bugner at London's Shoreditch Town Hall. and it's been said that Bugner never punched his full weight after that. The 23-year-old Bugner lost a twelve-rounder by decision to both Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. Although the scorecards in the Ali fight were somewhat lopsided, Bugner fought well. After their bout, Ali declared that Bugner was capable of being world champion and Ali's trainer Angelo Dundee agreed. The fight with Frazier in July 1973 at Earls Court in London was deemed a classic. After being knocked down by a tremendous left hook in the tenth round, Bugner arose and staggered Frazier to close the round. Frazier took the decision, but only narrowly, and arguably only George Foreman and Muhammad Ali ever gave Frazier a harder fight. In 1998 Bugner's long-term tenacity finally gave him a world crown, the WBF version of the heavyweight crown - by defeating former WBA World Heavyweight Champion James "Bonecrusher" Smith. At the age of 48 years and 110 days, it made him the oldest ever boxer to hold a world championship belt - RESPECT TO JOE
I liked Joe bugner slot I think he was good he fought em all look at his record and he was a nice man with it
Joe Bugner was the inspiration for "Glass Joe" in the Punch Out video game from the 80's. First thing I thought of upon seeing the thumbnail, lol. Kind of unfair to the real Joe. Tough cat who fought in era of absolute giants. And everyone had a glass jaw vs Shavers; the dude had the friggin death touch, man.
I remember playing that game! I think I got to the last boxer once. Not an easy game.
@@dustylover100 I played it in a pub in Kent in the 90’s! It was called mike Tyson’s punch out. I got to Tyson a few times but he was literally impossible to beat!
Thanks for the video
Bugner was born in Hungary and left when he was 5. He was raised in the UK, and represented the UK as a boxer. He even referred to Britain as "my country". Bob Hope was born in Britain, that doesn't mean he was British.
I vaguely recall that Bugner was part Hungarian, possibly a contributing factor as to why the British press and public did not embrace him nearly as much as Cooper.
he also ended Henry Coopers career which didn't go down very well.
@TheEnlightened77
Bugner was an oddity. He was actually capable of hitting pretty hard but the style of fighting that he learned as an amateur was an upright one. So it was instinct for him not to bend his body very much or use any shoulder / body roll to generate power when he was hooking. He was effectively an arm puncher in most of his fights.
It was rare, but on occasion he got mad and let the punches go. His KO of Richard Dunn is an example.
Classic. Saw this one as it happened. Big Joe. Shavers was a monster too.
Monster puncher. He was only right over the heavyweight weight limit though correct? I want to say I seen him listed at 202lbs for a fight. I Could be wrong.
Bugner was the toughest and best white boxer of the 70s who went the distance with Lyle, Frazier and many others that none of the other white boxers who challenged them could accomplish this much punishment, skill and technique with these opponents as he never got the credit he deserved.
At least 11 low blows by ernie
12
Gutted for Bugner. Earnie Shaver's fists tho! He settled in Liverpool last I heard.
Bugner was a Revolutionary 🥊
Shavers was no joke and neither was bugner both. Were badasses
Joe Is another tough guy from Eastern europe,(Hungary).
I thought Bugner was Australian?
@zenmachinefilms When an interviewer asked Foreman about Shavers, Foreman said, 'no I never fought Shavers. Thank goodness!'
Ernie shavers was also a doorman at Yates’s in Liverpool
I agree a fight between shavers and foreman would have been something to see, may be not the most skilled or fast of boxers but two of the hardest hitters of all time, easily in the top 10
@Simon P i think foreman would have won, foreman did have a better chin, only Ali stopped him through his boxing skills and game plan.
Foreman fault boxers like Frazier, Norton who had the same build and style similar to shavers, he was brilliant with them type of boxers.
Even in his come back when he was in his forties against Evander Hollyfield Morrison and Moorer they only wobbled foreman.
I personally would say Foreman would win
From what I can research, this is only one of two times in Bugner's entire career he was knocked down. The other was by Joe Frazier in their 1973 bout.
Frankie brunoey knocked him down
Oh yes I remembered that neck swing when he leaned on him
Phil Anderson smokin joe
Wow
He's a big dude!
Joe Bugner was very good, gave Ali trouble twice
Yes and never broke a sweat .
Ali.owned Bugner
Held Bugner's head before the right uppercut kd...
+Cedericoco Santorini That was Shaver's go-to trick.
James Rozoff
Lewis had a tendency to do the same.
Website guy
Yes, I agree, they all had their weird if not cheating tactics and behaviours... Although I sincerely doubt Holyfield's headbutts were on purpose. Some are the result of two heads clashing, the other guy getting the worst of it: see the first Tyson fight. After the first butt, resulting in the opening of the main cut on Tyson's eyebrow, comes the second butt (more visible on screen), causing Tyson to crouch in pain. That time, it's claimed Holy butted him. But instead, it's Tyson's head litterally smashing into Holy's head. My point of view.
Website guy
Interesting. Are you saying the gash on Tyson's eyebrow came from an elbow?
Oh you noticed it? Boxing is dirty, very very very few clean fighters.
Notice the biased announcer never said a word about the illegal tactics of Shavers!!!
Larry Merchant, he was always an a@shole. Go back and listen to him talk with Julio Cesar Chávez or Floyd Mayweather after one of their fights. Also notice that when he spoke of the cut on Joe's head, he mentioned that it was balding. He was always antagonistic and rude.
@@davidgrunstra3680 merchant is one of the best in the business. He calls em like he sees em.bugner was a no talent bum
The British supported Cooper over Bugner because he held back so much while Cooper really did give his all
This was just before his UK comeback. Remember Joe beating Winston Allen - which was the start of the much celebrated rivalry with big Frank Bruno. Shavers was a bit like Bruno in as much as he had a huge punch but suspect stamina.
Always think stamina is really misunderstood. We have only so much energy and when it is spent it is spent. Every punch you throw makes you weaker. Shavers simply spent his early.
This fight was before Joe moved to Australia. He had his first fight there in 85-86.
Earnie holds with the left, then delivers the right upper cut that finished jimmy ellis and many others, yet bugner survived 3 of them. say what you like about bugner, but he had a hell of a chin on him .....
Bugner withstood the same punch that sent Jimmy Ellis to la la land. Without the cut Bugner would probably have worn down Shavers like other fighters did
He held him with his left hand and drilled him with right same as he did with Ellis.., can't hit and hold
A lot of Shavers knockouts came that way. Left hand behind the opponents head and a right uppercut.
Bugner was a class fighter....Shavers had some punch...
Watch this. Shavers v Quarry!
ua-cam.com/video/uZw1GxU5C_I/v-deo.html
The hardest puncher of all time, never held the title
Vladimir Yemelyanov 4 fighters that fought both of them disagree
Hardest puncher of all time, based on what? Shavers was barely a small cruiser by modern's standards, fought under 200lbs and was barely over it in his career... Had a padded record full of light, small cans, with laughable losing records and already stopped before, and he never knocked out anyone good... I'm sure certain light-heavies from today hits harder than him, let alone cruisers and super-heavyweights... In my opinion he wasn't even the best puncher from his era, Foreman certainly was, and i know what Ali and few others said, i prefer to look at facts...
Ernie was doing some dirty business in that fight. The knock down came from Ernie holding head and introducing an upper cut. Then fight was ended by a head butt. The ref must have decided to take this fight off.
I think it's almost criminal that we have hardly any Shavers fight videos.
Ali v Shavers is on UA-cam. Ali said Shavers is the hardest puncher he has faced.
Bugner for 2020 boxing hall of fame. The oldest world champion of all times.
I grew up with Bugner from when he was 16 and I was 13 and he was like a brother to me. My comment is concerning this fight with Shavers and the management team he had at "this time". Knowing Joe and his history concerning management, I stand by my views. Shavers was a very big hitter and not the fight to take at such an early stage of a comeback. Joe was there for the money only, not for the love of boxing and it shows. And there wasn't a rematch, Why? Because Shavers hit too hard! Best.
I'm not surprised Shavers put him down, but bugner getting up !
For John Smith: Not sure why but I can't reply directly to your well-written and interesting "I don't recall Norton's opinion" post, so hope you come across this. In Norton's bio GOING THE DISTANCE, he doesn't go into any great detail about how hard Shavers hits, just the standard: "My next fight was against boxing's most murderous puncher"; "Suddenly, Shavers hit me with a thunderous left hook"; "Another of Shavers' potent punches had sent me back to the canvas"; "I was too out of it to even protest. Mills had done a good job and protected me from myself and Shavers".
It's been a while since I read it so can't recall if he compared how hard his opponents hit elsewhere in the text, sorry.
You make some excellent points but there just seems to be too many fighters claiming Shavers was the hardest hitter they faced to overlook the possibility. Tex Cobb said: "Nobody hits like Shavers. If anybody hit harder than Shavers, I'd shoot him. Earnie could punch you in the neck with his right hand and break your ankle." Ron Lyle said: "Hey man, that's the hardest I've ever been hit in my life. And George Foreman could punch, but none of them could hit like Earnie Shavers did." Joe Bugner said: "Best puncher, Ernie Shavers. He was an enormous puncher, but I have real issue with that fight because of a conversation Shavers and I had years later. Apparently Don King told Ernie to get me out of that ring, by any means necessary, and not to worry about disqualification." Bugner also named the strongest fighter he faced (Lyle); the hardest chin (Frazier); fastest hands and feet, best jab, and smartest (Ali).
Sk Ks - thanks for the reply. I actually forgot that I made a post re this clip. I appreciate the quoting of Norton's comments re Shavers - given the broader scope of Norton's opinions on all things boxing, the man came across as genuinely expressed and wholly rational/intellectual. .Norton was one of the few to pick Ali against Foreman, noting that he saw openings against George but was simply too "tight" to fully capitalise. Norton did not believe that Ali would be as afflicted (with nerves) as Norton was. In the early going, Norton was performing very well against Foreman but the first truly solid connection seemed to bring Norton undone (exacerbated by Norton's own lack of belief in himself).
Sure, the testimonials of Shaver's opp. should not be dismissed out of hand but I still have my reservations as per the reasons I outlined. Certainly it's not to say that Shavers wasn't a devastating puncher who belongs among the truly elite hitters - in my opinion, he sure does.
Just back on to Norton for a moment - some may bang on Ken's chin butt he was, after all, knocked by guys who might be ranked in the top 5 punchers of all time (excluding the Garcia KO earlier in Norton's career). Norton was interesting in that he could take a decent shot very well....up to a certain level of power. Let's say that Norton could take a shot that rated 8/10 on the punch Richter Scale quite well but anything beyond that, Kenny fell apart somewhat and it was slippery slope thereafter. That extra turn of the power notch made all the difference and guys like Foreman, Shavers and Cooney could push the needle that bit further. Otherwise, Ken could bang along quite nicely with guys like Ali and Holmes without too much disturbance if any.
I've been studying clips of Louis, Liston, Foreman, Tyson etc. working out on the heavy bag to get the feel of their primary punch power. All major hitters and the ridiculous impact force of their punches is palpable. For dramatic effect, Foreman's work on the bag (Dick Saddler holding same) is awe inspiring. Slow, persistent mono punching (right or left) but unbelievably powerful all the same. The dent made in the bag by Foreman is uniformly noted by commentators - but George was hitting the same spot with the same punch over and over and over again and I wouldn't say that Saddler's recoiling reactions weren't perhaps a tad contrived to enhance the impression of Foreman's power. Again, not saying Foreman didn't hit like a Mack Truck - I wouldn't be fussed holding the heavy bag while Foreman was blasting away at it. I know Ali deliberately stayed away from Foreman's heavy bag workouts - the Greatest had plenty of self belief but the vision of Foreman modifying the shape of heavy bag would be enough to bring the most confident of fighters undone.
Liston's demonstrated power in the ring and on the heavy bag are highly impressive. Unlike Foreman, Sonny's absolute sheer power is not unleashed with each and every shot - rather, it is tempered by Liston's deference to and execution of considerable boxing skills. Liston hits the bag with an ease that appears disproportional to the apparent end point force yielded. If Liston swung for the fences from opening bell as Foreman often did, Liston might've had even more KOs in faster time than he did but, in balance, we might've seen Liston eventually gas and expire as quickly as the young Foreman did.
Certainly, against the likes of the elusive Eddie Machen, without securing an earlier rd KO, Foreman might've floundered in the later rounds as he did against Jimmy Young. Not so with Liston, who metered himself very well over 12 rounds against Machen while still landing heavy artillery throughout.
No right, wrong, definitive opinions or answers here. Quite simply, the process of simply chewing these things over is interesting enough in itself.
PS - Alas, with all that, I forgot to say that I can't find ANY clips of Shavers seriously working the heavy bag. Too bad but I will optimistically hold that something must be out there..
Thanks
John Smith"No right, wrong, definitive opinions or answers here. Quite simply, the process of simply chewing these things over is interesting enough in itself. "
100% agree, and thanks for the info.
Bugner was the guy who could "talk a good fight." His fight against Frazier was his best. World Class fighter sure, but came second against the very best.
You don't want to get hit by Ernie shavers ,so said Mahamed Ali
I can't imagine anyone suiting his own name better than Joe Bugner.
QuIgYx Me or Joe Bugner?
good old joe,beat bonecrusher smith to win the wbf heavyweight title aged 48,oldest ever to win a title belt...ok nobody has heard of it but still,48 yr old and still knocking them down,ernie ended up as a doorman in blackpool uk,still looked fit an well last time i remember seeing him.
Earnie Shavers -- white trunks, Joe Bugner -- blue trunks. Gee thanks, I'd never have been able to tell them apart otherwise. You still see the same thing on boxing telecasts today -- one guy is black, the other is white, but nobody dares identify them that way.
Earnie Shavers is being a lot more patient here than he has been historica..... BOSH!!
he knew Bugner had a good jab and a belting right hook... if you remember on he caught Joe Frazier with it towards the end of the 13th round... Frazier was happy to hear the bell.
Bugner was a damm good heavyweight never got much credit from the British media after getting a controversial decision against Henry Cooper.
I enjoy following the boxing in the 60s- 80s era much more than today. I guess I have to give Ali credit for that. But there was a whole different thing then. They looked so much better than today. Maybe because they had longer amateur careers except from some boxers
Fun Fact: Bugner won the WBF title in 1998 at the age of 48 over James "Bonecrusher" Smith. However, he once lost to Marvis Frasier so this guy was all over the place.
I forgot just how good a boxer Joe bugner was.
3:43 is a 'trick' I've seen Shavers use before: holding behind the head and bringing in the uppercut. Not strictly legal, but effective
Frazier actually knocked Bugner unconscious, but refused to hit him while he was defenseless, or Joe woulda KOed him. It's in the 10th round of their fight. The corner is all that is holding Bugner up
Joe Johnson Bugner put up a good fight against Frazier and clearly hurt him too.
+Joe Johnson
Seen that on UA-cam. Frazier showed just the right amount of compassion (if indeed there is room for compassion in professional boxing). Enough to beat his opponent without killing him but not enough to end up regretting it and getting clobbered .
If Frazier had landed one of his knock out blows whilst Bugner was in that position he might well have killed him. Frazier paid for it by denying himself the knock out.
In contract Gerry Cooney used Ken Nortons head as a speed ball when he had him in the same position.
I saw that fight live on TV and remember thinking that I would have done the same as Cooney.
But now older and wiser I compare these two incidents think that the two contrasting actions between Frazier and Cooney prove that Frazier was the better man.
Earnie Shavers was so unlucky that he didn't win the world heavyweight crown.Earnie rocked Muhammad Ali, thirty-nine years ago and he dropped Larry Holmes, thirty-seven years ago.Earnie Shavers' big right was lethal and it is a shame that he didn't get a chance of winning the world heavyweight title.