Fantastic video! "We don't want people to be sad." My favorite quote. As an old sound person who has been around from the analog to digital conversion, I can say this is a wonderful and very informative guide. I learned some things! Thank you Ryan!
Dude, thanks so much for not only giving an excellent explanation of gain structure, but also providing a thorough tutorial on how to approach each instrument in the mix! I’m thinking I might need to take another look at my mix and apply some of your tips and tricks! 👀
God bless you thank you so much for taking the time to do this because we don’t have anyone to show us and we’re trying so hard to do as good as we can and do research to figure things out and put the pieces together
One of the best explanations of gain I’ve seen yet. Also really like the walkthrough and use of different instruments with gain. Would love a video on your processing chain for vocals and all instruments.
This is a very useful video, but I have a different opinion. If I mix everything I can in the studio, I can't do that in a live system, because safety is very important with power amplifiers and speakers dealing with large voltages. So I add a little bit of transients on the drums at line level so that they light up at +3dB, and the end result is that I want the mix to run safely at line level. This is to prevent clipping on sudden input signals and subsequently protect the system if you don't have a dynamic processor. The desired mix is an operation, but it is also an operation to keep the system running well.
Great info on gain staging. It only makes sense to handle more dynamic sources differently. If I take out too much of the dynamic portion, it's just degraded what would otherwise have sounded great musically.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I sound checked a drummer this way and when the show actually started the adrenaline kicked in with the mic levels following suit. Because of that I now set drum gains a little lower than I want them at sound check unless I know the drummer is going to stay consistent.
That's the WORST! I've had lots of success having the band loop a chorus and setting gains there. It helps me build the mix too so I can focus on vocals once they get to the venue.
2:03 - "Zero is clipping" Well, that depends on what you are talking about/looking at. input meters or fader meters? (these can be different things if you are looking at software or the desk itself) Also depends on the manufacturer of the desk you are using, as I know that Behringer and Allan & Heath set their metering up a little differently.
Interesting, I wouldn't run the bass through a distortion but rather use an harmonizer to enhance the higher harmonics. This gives imho a smoother and warmer result.
Check out our video on bass to really hear how we use the distortion to help it sit with the guitars in a live mix. We love using an H300 on bass for some chorus! We use the H300 AND distortion in parallel in the studio all the time!
I agree with you Michiel, Distorting the bass does not sound natural, it is evident that he is a rocker and likes his bass like that, so that's typical. Especially if he's going to use that with a church setting their music is awful loud anyway and half the time you can't hear the singers. PS.he lost me after he distorted the bass, couldn't watch anymore. Also using digital consoles may be okay, you just have to figure out how to mic the instruments and talent to the correct sound needed, to have a comfortable listening experience. That's my take on it, Different Strokes for different folks.
Thanks Paul! We use an EHX bass micro synth into a tone hammer preamp pedal (the green one) into a RNdi. Origin FX makes some great pedals too. Most of the distortion comes from the micro synth. It can be tricky to get it right if the bass players like to adjust things all the time but when it works it really works.
Finally someone who actually understands how gain structure completely effects how your gates and comps react. But why limit yourself to only 6db of reduction on a vocal? If it sounds good and doesn't cause feedback, do it. I've definitely hit 10db a fair bit on loud passages on vocals...
I only do 6db of compression as a general rule (I do break it if it needs it) on ONE stage at a time. (Except parallel compression I do like 40 db of reduction on that) I have multiple compressors doing 3-6db in stages so it is compressed 8-14db usually. Just not on one stage cause I always feel like I can hear it in a negative way.
Thank you so much for sharing, you don't how much you are helping me right now. I have 1 question about how many percent did you turn it up your mixer gain to rich -18 Db? Because we have Soundcraft si performer 3 with 2 x 1000 W subwoofer and 4 x 1000 top speakers at zero Db level. On the mixer if I turn it up most of the gains to rich - 18 Db it would be to loud on front of house and monitors at zero feeder level.
In this case audio-subgroups is one way to do it without penalizing the gain structure . Well, the Si Performer doesn't have designated subgroups, but you could route the signal to an aux and that aux to the L-R bus. Now check that your input levels are all at linelevel, your faders are at 0db (highest resolution of the fader) and your master fader is also at 0db. Then push the aux-master slowly up to the level you like.
Setting your speaker levels is part of the gain structure in a way. Set the levels on the mixer and on your speaker Amps adjust to how load you want it in your room. You can use Pink noise at unity or 0 since it’s a pretty constant
Usually in that case, I route all my outputs through matrices and try to set my system volume and EQ tuning through that. Si Performer should have 8 matrices available to use.
After all the gains on the mixer are set properly, you would turn the amps/powered speaker volume control/system processor input, up to the desired playback level. We use 90-95db as our target. If you can’t reach the desired volume the PA is too small. If you can hit that target really early, then you have a ton of headroom and are very blessed!!!
how do you deal with monitors for musicals with this gain of the vocals? I aways found to not have enough of volume if the stage is loud and I set their gain lower...
Depends on how it’s being mic’d. If it’s close mic’d and has lots of dynamic range I would gain stage like a vocal. If it’s more of a distant condenser setup I might shoot for nominal. The general rule is if it’s transient aim higher than nominal. If it’s really dynamic aim lower/higher depending on the source. If it’s pretty compressed/distant then aim for nominal.
Thanks for that lesson! This video is very well structured and it's also easy to understand because of the agreeable voice you have. Can we hear the song from the mix anywhere? Peace
Good explanation, but simpler the chain the easier the gain structure, digial or analog. The more plug ins used the more complicated it can get. Also sometimes we get plug in crazy, close tour eyes and listen to changes or toggle them on and off. If its not that big of differnce then you might not need it. Somwtimes i have to catch myslef to not use womehtinf just because i may barely hear it but may not be worh instering into the signal chain.
If your running it at a good signal level but running into clipping it’s possible the drummer has bad playing technique and is hitting really light AND really hard. Try using a bit more compression than you normally would!
Yeah but in my experience the only desk that offers true RMS metering is the Avid S6L. I think digico is just digital or “analog” style metering. If it’s analog vu style shoot for 0 on most things but -5 or -7 for low end stuff.
Also not every channel is going to work at the same gain level. Especially if it’s a dynamic input. Pastors/speakers who talk regular and pastors/speakers who yell and get all hyped up is a great example of where you might need to leave more or less room. Depends on what you’re mixing a little bit.
Haha I did say that they ran it too distorted. The concept is what the take away was. A little distortion on the bass helps it cut through small speakers!
Fantastic video! "We don't want people to be sad." My favorite quote.
As an old sound person who has been around from the analog to digital conversion, I can say this is a wonderful and very informative guide. I learned some things! Thank you Ryan!
Dude, thanks so much for not only giving an excellent explanation of gain structure, but also providing a thorough tutorial on how to approach each instrument in the mix! I’m thinking I might need to take another look at my mix and apply some of your tips and tricks! 👀
God bless you thank you so much for taking the time to do this because we don’t have anyone to show us and we’re trying so hard to do as good as we can and do research to figure things out and put the pieces together
i'm very thankful to you for sharing this veeery useful information for everybody !
Great Video on Gain structure!!!
Very good explanations, especially the important topics of peak level and average level and how to handle them. Great video !
One of the best videos I’ve watched on gain structure. Thank you very much!
Thank you! I wrestled with it for so long. i'm happy it helped you!
One of the best explanations of gain I’ve seen yet. Also really like the walkthrough and use of different instruments with gain. Would love a video on your processing chain for vocals and all instruments.
Thanks so much! Check out the channel cause we have a breakdown of every instrument/vocal.
That was an excellent guide, thank you so much!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks!
This is a very useful video, but I have a different opinion. If I mix everything I can in the studio, I can't do that in a live system, because safety is very important with power amplifiers and speakers dealing with large voltages. So I add a little bit of transients on the drums at line level so that they light up at +3dB, and the end result is that I want the mix to run safely at line level. This is to prevent clipping on sudden input signals and subsequently protect the system if you don't have a dynamic processor. The desired mix is an operation, but it is also an operation to keep the system running well.
Fabulous tips
fantastic information
Awesome !! Now I just need that DigiCo console
This works on every console! X32 with waves is great.
great content man.
Thanks!
Thank you
Great info on gain staging. It only makes sense to handle more dynamic sources differently. If I take out too much of the dynamic portion, it's just degraded what would otherwise have sounded great musically.
Exactly! For me it’s mainly about being able to use my dynamics with regular threshold settings. Instead of running everything at the extremes.
Cool..!!💯
Thanks!
I wish I had a dollar for every time I sound checked a drummer this way and when the show actually started the adrenaline kicked in with the mic levels following suit. Because of that I now set drum gains a little lower than I want them at sound check unless I know the drummer is going to stay consistent.
That's the WORST! I've had lots of success having the band loop a chorus and setting gains there. It helps me build the mix too so I can focus on vocals once they get to the venue.
2:03 - "Zero is clipping"
Well, that depends on what you are talking about/looking at. input meters or fader meters? (these can be different things if you are looking at software or the desk itself) Also depends on the manufacturer of the desk you are using, as I know that Behringer and Allan & Heath set their metering up a little differently.
I am floored that not more live sound consoles have RMS metering, at least on the preamp/gain meter.
Same!
Interesting, I wouldn't run the bass through a distortion but rather use an harmonizer to enhance the higher harmonics. This gives imho a smoother and warmer result.
Check out our video on bass to really hear how we use the distortion to help it sit with the guitars in a live mix. We love using an H300 on bass for some chorus! We use the H300 AND distortion in parallel in the studio all the time!
I agree with you Michiel, Distorting the bass does not sound natural, it is evident that he is a rocker and likes his bass like that, so that's typical. Especially if he's going to use that with a church setting their music is awful loud anyway and half the time you can't hear the singers. PS.he lost me after he distorted the bass, couldn't watch anymore. Also using digital consoles may be okay, you just have to figure out how to mic the instruments and talent to the correct sound needed, to have a comfortable listening experience. That's my take on it, Different Strokes for different folks.
Great content. Thank you for all your work on this. What pedals do you use on your bass for the compression and distortion you mentioned?
Thanks Paul! We use an EHX bass micro synth into a tone hammer preamp pedal (the green one) into a RNdi. Origin FX makes some great pedals too. Most of the distortion comes from the micro synth. It can be tricky to get it right if the bass players like to adjust things all the time but when it works it really works.
Awesome. Thank you
Finally someone who actually understands how gain structure completely effects how your gates and comps react. But why limit yourself to only 6db of reduction on a vocal? If it sounds good and doesn't cause feedback, do it. I've definitely hit 10db a fair bit on loud passages on vocals...
I only do 6db of compression as a general rule (I do break it if it needs it) on ONE stage at a time. (Except parallel compression I do like 40 db of reduction on that) I have multiple compressors doing 3-6db in stages so it is compressed 8-14db usually. Just not on one stage cause I always feel like I can hear it in a negative way.
Thank you so much for sharing, you don't how much you are helping me right now. I have 1 question about how many percent did you turn it up your mixer gain to rich -18 Db?
Because we have Soundcraft si performer 3 with 2 x 1000 W subwoofer and 4 x 1000 top speakers at zero Db level. On the mixer if I turn it up most of the gains to rich - 18 Db it would be to loud on front of house and monitors at zero feeder level.
In this case audio-subgroups is one way to do it without penalizing the gain structure . Well, the Si Performer doesn't have designated subgroups, but you could route the signal to an aux and that aux to the L-R bus. Now check that your input levels are all at linelevel, your faders are at 0db (highest resolution of the fader) and your master fader is also at 0db. Then push the aux-master slowly up to the level you like.
Setting your speaker levels is part of the gain structure in a way. Set the levels on the mixer and on your speaker Amps adjust to how load you want it in your room. You can use Pink noise at unity or 0 since it’s a pretty constant
Usually in that case, I route all my outputs through matrices and try to set my system volume and EQ tuning through that. Si Performer should have 8 matrices available to use.
After all the gains on the mixer are set properly, you would turn the amps/powered speaker volume control/system processor input, up to the desired playback level. We use 90-95db as our target. If you can’t reach the desired volume the PA is too small. If you can hit that target really early, then you have a ton of headroom and are very blessed!!!
how do you deal with monitors for musicals with this gain of the vocals? I aways found to not have enough of volume if the stage is loud and I set their gain lower...
Depends on the amount of drum bleed usually.
Great video. Would you gain stage a saxophone or trumpet like a vocal?
Depends on how it’s being mic’d. If it’s close mic’d and has lots of dynamic range I would gain stage like a vocal. If it’s more of a distant condenser setup I might shoot for nominal. The general rule is if it’s transient aim higher than nominal. If it’s really dynamic aim lower/higher depending on the source. If it’s pretty compressed/distant then aim for nominal.
@@thepowerplaceproduction Thank you
Thanks for that lesson! This video is very well structured and it's also easy to understand because of the agreeable voice you have.
Can we hear the song from the mix anywhere? Peace
Thanks! Somewhere on the Church’s UA-cam from a worship night. Not sure what week.
Good explanation, but simpler the chain the easier the gain structure, digial or analog. The more plug ins used the more complicated it can get. Also sometimes we get plug in crazy, close tour eyes and listen to changes or toggle them on and off. If its not that big of differnce then you might not need it. Somwtimes i have to catch myslef to not use womehtinf just because i may barely hear it but may not be worh instering into the signal chain.
Hi. Can you tell me if you can record with this console at 96 kHz via USB, or is it limited to 48? Great videos, by the way! Thank you.
You can run the console at 96k or 48k and record at the same time. But the recording sample rate is always 48k.
Got that Chris greely preset eh?
Love Chris! Learned so much from him. Chris, Vance Powell, and Michael Brauer are my favorites.
Right On brother!
@@thepowerplaceproduction
I have issues with snares clipping
If your running it at a good signal level but running into clipping it’s possible the drummer has bad playing technique and is hitting really light AND really hard. Try using a bit more compression than you normally would!
If your console meters were setup to be RMS instead of PEAK would you just gain every channel to -18?
Yeah but in my experience the only desk that offers true RMS metering is the Avid S6L. I think digico is just digital or “analog” style metering. If it’s analog vu style shoot for 0 on most things but -5 or -7 for low end stuff.
Also not every channel is going to work at the same gain level. Especially if it’s a dynamic input. Pastors/speakers who talk regular and pastors/speakers who yell and get all hyped up is a great example of where you might need to leave more or less room. Depends on what you’re mixing a little bit.
You can get a similar result by adjusting the ballistics surely?@@thepowerplaceproduction
I'm a bass player, if i recorded something like that I'd quit! Just sounded like a farting synth... 🤮
Haha I did say that they ran it too distorted. The concept is what the take away was. A little distortion on the bass helps it cut through small speakers!