What is Gaelic? Irish vs Scottish Gaelic
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- Опубліковано 15 гру 2020
- Is Irish, Gaelic? Why is Gaeilge, Irish, and not Gaelic? Is it the same as Scottish Gaelic? Where does it come from? These questions are answered here.
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What really irks me is the tendency of English-speakers to describe Gaelic spelling as random or nonsensical. It's actually more consistent than English spelling, but it has different rules because it was codified by monks trying to come to terms with grammatical sound changes, and the fact that the letters V and W hadn't been invented yet.
If only there had been a native writing system in Ireland and Scotland that had already reconciled those unique sounds.
*Ogham has left the chat*
Old Irish did it way more aesthetically, but each letter's pronunciation was very context-dependent, and somewhere along the way, we got this dumbed-down overbuilt monstrosity. Gaelic spelling could be entirely transformed into something more sensible, but there seems to be a bias to build on past conventions.
@The505Guys Or worse, anglicised names and placenames.
Exactly, it would make much more sense if, for example, the Irish words bó, cló, cnó and mó were spelled bow, cloe, karow and mough. That would be way more 'intuitive' and easier to grasp.
@@LobertERee Why dumbed-down? Old Irish orthography wasn't that great either, since it followed the rules of Old Welsh which often didn't work for Irish. You often can't tell whether PTC are voiced or voiceless, or nasalised, whether BDGMFS are lenited or not, whether a word starts with H, etc. I suppose it worked fine for native speakers since they knew how to speak the language but...
I have a poetry book, some poems are a few hundred years old. Back then the language was the same. WE know this because we cant tell for some poems if they were wrote by an Irish or Scots poet. Other poems we do because we know the name of the poet. Today the languages differ just like the different dialect of Irish in Munster, Ulster and Connacht Irish
The language reflected in late medieval and early modern texts is a literary standard based on strict norms that wasn't spoken in everyday life by anyone. That creates the impression of homogeneity. However, there have always been differences in everyday language, not just between Irish and Scottish Gaelic, but also between various local dialects.
THANK YOU for making this video that actually talks sense about this issue. Unfortunately people from Ireland and Scotland get blindsided by our political and national biases when talking about this. Thanks for cutting through the propaganda and just spitting facts.
Thanks for your stuff mate.Being a Aussie of Irish descent i like it a lot
It would be so cool if a modern movement occurred to get both of the countries agreeing on a formal language …
imagine they could speak with one another once more,
it would be a Celtic Marvel in modern times
I think both “Gaelic” languages are similar in the same way English and Scots are similar. It’s possible that Scottish Gaelic is closer to Irish Gaelic than scots is to modern English (modern English has been more modified than scots).
I'd say there are more differences between Irish and Scottish Gaelic than between English and Scots. Even basic things can differ considerably, from pronunciation to various aspects of grammar, and vocab.
Happy St Patrick's day thank you for this explanation.
As a Norse , Ulster, Scott , I enjoyed your video .
Ydych chi'n saiard cymreag?
Ry'n ni yma o hyd! 🏴🇨🇮🏴
I think UA-cam is playing some strange political tricks, when I hit the translate button below your comment it removed the flags and replaced them with an effin George's cross 🤣
@@fintan9705 it is because they have taken down our welsh flag and will not allow it to be posted any longer on comments. They may have done it to the Scottish and Irish flag as well I'm not sure but as far as the welsh flag it has been banned. I am not sure why either.
very interesting . ty
Very Eye Opening
Great Video As Usual
Sláinte mo chara
Calling Irish Gaelic "Irish" makes terms in the sense of signifying that it is the language of Ireland. The "Gaelic" addition makes it seem like it's a language rather than the language. As a half Ulsterman half Scot with Highland lineage, I would like it if Scottish Gaelic got called "Scottish" because it applies to everyone. People can say "Gaelic's not my language" but when Scots wake up to the fact that they are not speaking "Scottish", they will be more compelled to learn it. Gaelic in Scotland was actually called "Scottish" until the 15th century when Old English took over the Lowlands and hijacked the name, with Scottish Gaelic often getting the "Irish" label as Scotland became more Anglicised. Galloway and Fife actually had speakers into the 1700s but apart from that it became associated with the Highlands.
It confuses ethnicity with geographic boundaries and is not accurate. Should English be called British? No, it's the language developed by Anglo-saxons and is named for the ethnic identity not the place, just as the meaning of England it derived from the ethnicity. That isn't the case with Ireland.
@@FortressofLugh I was making the point that Scottish Gaelic should be a national language again as it is the only language to ever be spoken throughout the whole country and also the oldest language in Scotland. Aren't ethnicity and nationhood almost one and the same? I would say nations are made up of various historical ethnic groups which together constitute the unit known as the "nation". It just gets to me that French people speak "French", German people speak "German", etc. but we have a minority language called "Scottish Gaelic" but other than that Scotland is English speaking. Calling it "Scottish" makes the reality very clear that most Scots do not speak their own language.
Well technically you can’t argue that it’s THE one true Scottish mother tongue, mostly because Scots exists and already calls itself “Scots” among other names. I think you’ll find that having “Scottish” and “Scots” would be a confusing linguistic mess. However, I think you overlook why it’s called Scottish Gaelic. Because it’s describing the Gaelic as spoken by the Highland Scots. In the past they went the other way with it and called Scottish Gaelic “Eirish”, which isn’t entirely accurate. They should’ve called it Scottish Gaelic. The Highlanders even call their tongue “Gaelic”, so simply calling it “Scottish” would be an insult, leaving out what’s arguably the most important part of naming the Highland tongue, the Gaelic origins and structure of it. They’re also in the Kingdom Of Scotland, which was split in three between Germanic-Norman Lowlanders, Gaelic Highlanders, and Nordic islanders in the northern isles.
Please note, when I say “they called it Eirish” I’m talking about Lowland Scots who wrote about Highland Scots. I’ve seen “Eirish” “Eirische” and “Erse” used when talking about the Highland Scots, who I would argue should be called “Highland Scots” because calling them Irish/Eirish doesn’t make as much sense. They’re Scots just like the Lowlanders, but they’re Gaelic, not Norman. Also, Nation and Race are NOT the same. Nation is byproduct of race. France as a nation is comprised of Celtic Gauls, Germanic Franks and Mediterranean Romans. This racial-ethnic combination makes the modern French admixture. For Scotland it’s a little bit similar. Norman Lowlanders, Gaelic Highlanders, Nordic islanders.
Its all just Gaelic pal. All this national division does is just socially divide the movement to keep Gaelic speaking communities alive, and torpedo the Gaelic movement in northern ireland by tying it to a controversial argument about national identity that divides the people here instead of tying it to combined Gaelic cultural identity that unites us all.
Try sometime to travel to Cape Breton's Gaelic College in Nova Scotia. (New Scotland) here in Canada, but do it in the summer.
What was the language of the Picts? Who the Romans called the painted ones.
*Question:* what/where's the connection to Basque? There has got to be a connect, since we now have the DNA clarity.
Lineage orgin "County Kerry"
USA "Irish/Basque"
As far as I can research it, everyone agrees Basque/ Eusqadi is a language isolate, not related to any other language even including other pre-IndoEuropean languages such as many in the Caucasus region. The Basques say "We were here before the Devil" and may be one of the oldest extant languages in Europe. The Celtic languages are old but not as old as that--maybe Sami would get the next claim but it is recognized as part of the Uralo-Altaic family such as Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Turkish and a few others. I don't know about DNA clarity as that has shown around six very different haplotype groups by regions in Ireland, and Scotland being very mixed. I don't think there has been much DNA proof with the Basque region as so many non-Basque people have moved in to the area. Sorry. Tha Mi Duilicht!
my Scots father and Irish mother tried to speak Gaelic, but realized they did not understand each other. However, both spoke Spanish fluently, a fact that had vast benefits to me.
If you want a language to speak in front of the kids, you can't beat Spanish . . . .
In his book Culloden, the English historian John Prebble quotes contemporary English sources as describing the Scots Highlanders “with their heathen Irish tongue”. Scots Gaelic was historically known as Erse, a term rarely heard now for what I imagine are political reasons. 🇮🇪
Puts me in mind of the confusing distinctions involved in naming the farsi language. In Iran they refer to the language as persian, tho it used to be delineated as persian farsi, to distinguish it from other dialects of farsi.
I personally think in English, the 3 Gaelic languages should be known simply as:-
- Irish
- Scottish
- Manx
The term “Scottish-Gaelic” just makes no sense. As a Scot + a Gaelic originally meant the same thing.
Yes I am however aware still of the Lowland + North Eastern Anglic speech of Scotland. It can still simply be called “Scots”.
Scotlands 2 native languages, can simply be known in English as:-
- Scottish
- Scots
When talking about Scottish Gaelic, it is always pronounced Gah-lick. Gay-lick is only the pronounciation in Ireland.
Before the tudor conquest only the pale and parts of wexford were non irish or non gaelic speaking so its incorrect to say that people who were of norman or norse ancestry didn't speak irish.Have you not heard of the term more irish than the irish themselves.Besides gaels norse and normans /anglosaxons have been intermarrying for centuries.
@@FortressofLugh We are all well intermarried at this stage with respect your argument doesn't make sense. As regards passport and citizenship all the more reason for it to be called irish because it is of ireland and is regarded by the government as irish.There is no other language that can be called irish as is the case in scotland with the scots language so there is no need to call it anything other than irish.often of course what defines a language is an army and navy we have those small as they are scotland doesn't.
The difference is that Scots/Lallans/Doric was called Scots and the Lowlanders called themselves Scots. From what I gather, “Gael” was how the Irish commonly identified themselves. Irish came later as a term, even though the Gaelic written tradition started before Scots even developed at all.
Here's an idea to differentiate the various dialects so as to keep everyone happy, let's call the dialects Gaelg na hEireann, Gaelg na hAlbann agus Gaelg Oileán Mhannan, and just ditch the english terms for the language altogether.
I typically distinguish this way when speaking to someone who is educated on the subject, but say Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic to an English speaker who is ignorant of the languages and culture. Same with our British cousins, Cymru agus Kernow. I'll use their word for their language typically unless the person is ignorant, then I use the English but always tell them the correct names.
Awesome. Didn't think I'd learn something about Gaelic on UA-cam outside of grammar.
An Irish/Acadian-American friend of mine reckons Scotland was a colony of Ireland. I don't know if he was basing that solely off the language being the same until modernisation of Scottish Gaelic. Any truth to that?
There was a kingdom called Dal Riada which was a Gaelic colony from Ireland. However there is some possible new info on the Picts as well which I will be making a video about soon.
On the other hand, one cold say that calling it Irish is a way of disregarding the Planters and the Normans. And if it could be said that anyone doesn't have a culture, it'd be the Normans.
We all descend from bell beaker folk anyway.
The Normans all became Irish speakers except for Forth and Bargey in Wexford and Fingal in Dublin. Geoffrey Keating was Norman and he wrote a history of Ireland in Gaelic.
They are not the same at all but they are the same language.
Even Gaeilge as Irish Gaelic for Irish Gaelic is controversial since it is the genitive not the nominative, the nominative Gaedhaelg having fallen out of use in Galway, but not everywhere else.
www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/33347.html?1207598919
www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/50511.html?1277773238
More on the subject.
www.irishlanguageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3851&view=next
Well i'll be darned. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gaeilge#Alternative_forms
I think ultimately, the language is called Irish in Ireland in English to emphasize it is indigenous language of the Irish, especially in the context to promote the use of the language when it is endanger of extinction.
Whatever Scotland wishes to call its language is also Scotland's decision to make, too. But since Scots refers to a Germanic language too, some distinction is needed. But ultimately, Scottish Gaelic descending from Old Irish doesn't make it less than Scottish than the Scots Language descending from Old English, nor does it give England or Ireland any sort of "leg up" or whatever, either.
nonsense.
Scottish developed from old/Middle Irish, as well as Manx too
Irish is the language the rest are dialects. Thank you for saying so as so many downplay Irish by pretending it’s just another dialect.
That isn't what I said.I said Gaelic is the language, and that calling it Irish is misleading and separates the language from the actual ethnicity. I am not in anyway downplaying the language, I just think in English it shouldn't be translated as Irish, but Gaelic or Irish Gaelic to differentiate from Scottish Gaelic as it is more accurate and reflects the ethnic origin.
@@FortressofLugh And that’s not what I said. Maybe you should reread what I said.
I usually just call them Irish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic, and Scottish Gaelic. Perhaps not the best solution, but it solves the problem that arises when three languages ALL insist that Gaelic is the name of their speech.
When I was in school I had a teacher tell me there were slight variations on the name:
Gaelic (Scots-gaelic)
Gaeilge (Caideán/Connaught)
Gaelinn (Munster Irish)
Not sure how accurate that is though. Poor Manx got left out.
Manx is Gaelg
Yeah, Manx, Breton, and Cornish are usually forgotten altogether, unfortunately.
@@brianboru7684 Thanks
@@lowlandnobleman6746 Well, Breton and Cornish are a completely different branch of Celtic. I heard tell they're trying to revive Cumbric too.
The reason why it’s referred to as old Irish is because the Gaelic speakers in Scotland didn’t come from the brittonic celts but it came from the celts in Ireland who travelled to Scotland
Facts! 🏴🤝🇮🇪
According to medieval narratives of èlite origins. Most archaeologically invisible migration/invasion ever.
I have tried to explain this very point to Irish natives I have met. But, I have been met with nothing but hostility and mockery when doing so. It seems neither side wants to be grouped in with the other because of historical sectarian conflict. Here's to solving the problem by dropping Abrahamism in favor of returning to our ethnic wisdom traditions.
Were the Irish, Gaelic speakers? Not sure what "sectarianism" or "Abrahamism" has to do with it. Scottish Gaelic is spoken in the staunchly Catholic Barra and South Uist, and a Protestant Douglas Hyde led the Gaelic revival in Ireland. Modern sectarianism in Ireland and Scotland is more about soccer clubs siding with the other rival competing branches of Abrahamism in the Holy Land rather than Christianity.
Were you specifying old Gaelic or just calling it Gaelic? because I can totally see why they'd be hostile if you didn't specify. In modern terms, if you want to call the current language we Irish speak its Gaelige, and the Scots speak Gaelic so trying to say it's the same language would result in people getting annoyed because at this point it's not. Also given the decline in native Gaelige speakers (Gaeilgeoirs) because they are fiercely proud of their culture and protecting it. Coming in and idly calling the language they're trying to preserve Gaelic would appear disrespectful. We don't call Italian Latin despite it having Latin roots, and while modern Gaelige isn't as far separated by the same length of time as those two languages from it's Gaelic roots, it is still recognised as it's own language.
@@quinnsmusings Gaeilge is Connemara version made popular by standardisation. In the rest of Connacht, and in Donegal Ulster it is Gaedhilg, similar to Gaelic or Gaelg or Gaelg like the Manx. In Munster it is Gaoluinn or Gaelainn. That last Irish speakers in the Dublin Mountains called it Gaela. Even in Scotland in Argyll they pronounce it the Irish way "Gay-lik".
@@quinnsmusings They more less call it Gaelic in Donegal in both Irish and English. Ever heard of the Gaelic League founded by Douglas Hyde? The Irish also seem to have no problem calling the Irish code of football "Gaelic football" although it has a purely Irish origin. It is only in modern times that "Gaelic" as a term for Irish has become unacceptable.
@@brianboru7684 I must ask that you clarify if you mean that you believe it is currently this way or if you're referring to historically it was this way? Historically I'll not disagree, I'm just attempting to point out that currently the 'standardisation' has occurred and it is nationally known as Gaelige, and if in your dealings with Gaeilgeoirs, or other Irish people, you didn't make that current vs historic distinction because it is important
What is the difference between a Scottish beer fart and an Irish beer fart? Which fart would smell worse? Scotch whisky and haggis versus Irish sausage and Guinness
I'd love to learn Gaelic but as an American, it's has no practical use. Old English, Welsh and Gaelic are my ancestral languages but alas, Spanish and French make more sense to study in the new world
I understand, but I think you should forge your own path.
Learn it for the practicality of being able to speak the language of your ancestors and enriching your connection to them.
This video as an Irish person who speaks Irish is absolutely nonsense, your facts are mostly wrong 😑
If you agree or disagree the most important thing is that Scotland and Ireland are the most patriotic countries and people off all nations!! Alba gu brath 🏴 Erin go bragh 🇮🇪