I can just sit here and hear you guys all day. Great job with the channel, best thing I've discovered in this eternal quarantine. Cheers from Argentina!
So! What are your favourite West Coast IPAs? We'll go first - Racer 5, Russian River Blind Pig, Troegs Perpetual, Pressure Drop Bosko. Also, after filming Shane of the Cheshire Brewhouse got in touch to say he uses Munich malt rather than cara/crystal and actually uses his British ale yeast for all his beers (just different hopping rates/regimes/water treatment to differ his West Coasts and more New England style ones).
@@brotherjohn2002 Stone was my favorite many years ago. But if you take a close look at the bottle it now says v. 2.0 Not nearly as good as before. Nowadays i would say Henhouse IPA from Sonoma County CA. Also Pernicious IPA from Wicked Weed in North Carolina.
When i brew new england ipa i like to use the farmhouse yeasts from norway. I also have a great west coast-ish ipa that is loosly based on Traditional scandinavian farmhouse ales. I use a Lot of juniper berries and some juniper branches, piney hops, and a lithuanian farmhouse yeast.
Love this, great topic. Oh, the days of IPA's you could see through. So true that many have forgotten about the West Coast IPA. The amount of beer flowing out of NE breweries is amazing. One of the best West coast IPA's-- Maine Beer Company --Lunch!
I’ve always loved IPA for the breadth of styles within styles. Even before the New England thing the amount of interpretation and variation of West Coast IPA was crazy
Great video. Just found your channel...I will definitely be subscribing. What's sad to me is how many beer drinkers first exposure to IPAs was more of the West Coast style and the experience just blew them away with the extreme bitterness. I hear people all that time say something like "I don't like IPAs...they're too bitter"...to which I respond "have you ever tried a New England style IPA?" Love what you guys are doing (I'm watching from Arizona). I might have to start home-brewing so I'll have something to do with all of my home-grown blood oranges every January.
Fantastic video and so informative. Love all Styles of IPAs and I’m personally a fan of the bitter smash lol . But so much to learn . Just ordered your book . Cheers guys Speno
The bitterness of west coast IPAs is pretty overwhelming at first. I remember my first time visiting Oregon in 2017 (from the U.K.) and all the beer seemed to be this style - clear, insanely bitter and ABVs of like 8-10%. Complete opposite of Britain where the strongest easily available IPA was Punk. I love that kind of beer now though and still feel like Britain has a lot of catching up to do when it comes to the modern IPAs!
Bad ass Channel! My way of explaining New England IPA to a West Coast IPA is preference, East coast style usually is unfiltered with a more expressive yeast, with fruit that has a doughy lacing to it. The reason is because the style of brewing during the British colonial era, they didn't go the extra step of filtering or dry hoping. West Coast IPA's are newer to the beer scene, as West coast IPA's are more hop forward and have a dank smell of hops. With a large variety of filtering and dry hoping to add bitterness, while keeping fermentation with fruit added. To sum it up whatever your pallet enjoys there is more flavors of beer then there is actual taste buds on your tongue. With that said, raise your glass high! Cheers!
All good detail to add...though worth noting that British breweries have been dry hopping for centuries. Just not anywhere near in the quantities we see today.
I admit I surrendered to the bitterness wars. Had a few friends that were big on piney hoppy finishes. I swore off IPAs. Then a local beer blogger explained to me that I don't dislike IPAs, I dislike certain hops. So, I've done some research & sampling & I am IN LOVE WITH juicy NEIPAs with Citra & Mossaic.
Glad you found your jam Mike! It is probably not just the hops bringing the flavours you like though - most piney, hoppy beers will use citra too. It's how they are used, and the recipe of the beer. As we say in the video, NEIPAs are as much about the yeast character (stone fruit, sweeter finish) as the hops (used very late and heavily to pronounce juicy notes). So don't write off beers that don't use citra/mosaic, just check to see if it's a New England or West Coast style!
OK, a few moments ago I saw your PORTER exposition, now I'm seeing your presentation on IPAs. Can't say I've been much of an IPA fan, but I have SLIGHTLY warmed to them. Particular to my local pub is one with a heavy dose of grapefruit to it, that grows on me without making my gorge rise from bitterness or the chewing of pine needles. Currently four of the beers on draft at the local there are IPAs of wildly different types. I find newbs that get into IPAs are doing so as a sort of brutal set of training wheels for graduates of the Budweiser crowd, who have discovered some things called FLAVORS and BODY. Frankly I prefer a malt-forward brew, but I have modified my tastes a bit. Well done, keep up the good work, I understand the sacrifices you have to make in your pursuits.
watching this gave me a real craving for an old school (aka from like 5-10 years ago) west cost IPA. On another note, the apartment that I rent (basement of really really old people) have the exact same sofa-cushions as Brad! ;)
Hahahahaha strangely that will make Brad VERY happy! As for craving West Coasters we always come back from trips to the States going "where the hell are our west coast IPAs?!" The craving is real.
They are harder to find these days and significantly more bitter, but if you don't like really bitter beers it's just because you haven't had enough of them! It's like chillies. My advice is look for some "Mountain IPAs" which are supposedly a cross between the two - fresher and lighter than NEIPA but still juicy
Thanks guys gave me some good info I like my IPA and didn't know why I got such a difference tasting beer I'm a fan of both beer but like the west coast more
it's funny how New England IPA started out as a 70 IBU beer with Heady Topper probably being one of the first attributed to that style and it's ended up as a low hop fruit juice. I love both ends of the spectrum but somewhere in the middle is my favorite.
Ha, yeah it's true. In our video with John at the Alchemist he says he doesn't really enjoy the beers that he's inspired (though there are some exceptions). We think there is room for both approaches in the genre!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Had Heady a few weeks back for the first time in years, Threes in Brooklyn got a shipment. If Other Half, Finback, or Threes made a clone of Heady they would call it a WCIPA.
All the boutique IPA lovers shit on Sierra's Hazy Little Thing but to me it is more in line with Heady Topper in that it has decent bitterness as well as the juicy flavors typically associated with the style.
Just listening to your podcast on this vid and nodding my head the whole time lol. God I love a WCIPA. Had a banging, caramalt heavy (yes a strong malt backbone is a defining characteristic of a WCIPA!) hybrid from S43 recently (you need to do a vid on them ASAP) called 'Was It A Car Or A Cat I Saw?' which had some lovely piney West Coast characteristics, but was also juicy and soft. Also got some Verdant 'Pigs All Day' on its way to me, and am very excited to get my laughing gear around that! Finally I've also been very much enjoying a Tiny Rebel 'Cali Pale Ale', which was bought for me in keg form as a birthday present for my Perfect Draft (the PD was also bought for me) and was very surprised at how much they had hopped the shit out of that beer, as I usually find Tiny Rebel to be very... mass market focussed. Piney as anything. Sidenote - Jaipur is fucking incredible out of a PD.
Great video. Love Bosko. Pressure Drop absolutely nail the NE style (particularly in a DIPA), but this one always stands out for me. DEYA 500ml cans could also be very smart marketing (obvs the beer is great regardless). Stands out a mile in a sea of 440ml
Johnny I just ordered a case from flavourly and found your craft beer textbook. Cracking read with a beer. Really informative. Keep up the good work lads. 👍🏻
While I’m a native Californian who’s only grown up on the west coast, I have to say that I prefer hazy New England style IPAs over traditional west coast IPAs.
Back in my hop head days of 2013-2016ish, I for sure got mango juice and pineapple juice notes (alongside the bitter/piney/danky notes) from massive west coast IPAs. But then I tried a Hazy/NEIPA for the first time probably in 2018 and obviously it was WAY MORE juicy, but I suppose it's somewhat subjective based of experience. What I mean is, if you've never had a NEIPA, it's wouldn't be uncommon to find tropical fruit notes and citrus fruit notes in west coast IPAs as I have here all over Southern California.
The IBU limit is due to solubility of the bittering agents: primarily iso-alpha-acid as the non isometised alpha acid is comparetively insoluble. Boiling the hops isomerises them making them more soluble, this is a large part of the reason beer is boiled. The solubility limit is approximately 110IBUs. You could put ten times as many hops in and boil hotter for ten times as long, and it wouldn't get any more bitter. There is a way to get more iso-alpha-acid into the beer than the 110IBU solubility limit. I discovered it inadvertently. Definitely not a good idea though. 110IBU is enough.
i think what you're saying is - due to the physics of the molecules in hops that actually cause bitterness once you put in enough hops to equal 110ibus of bitterness no more of the molecules will be able to become "soluble" or mixed into the beer, so it can't taste any more bitter.
I've grown tired of NE IPAs and crave old style West coast up IPAs but have trouble finding them. If I want sweet I'll drink a barleywine. If I want juice, I'll drink juice.
I went to the carlsberg brewery tour and now have a fascination with beer. Fun fact about carlsberg: the pH scale was devised in their scientific research facility on site at their brewery. Surprised me and didnt believe it at first
I love hazies but back in my day (2008) an East Coast IPA was somewhere between an English IPA and a West Coast IPA, the best known example being Dogfish 60 Minute. /grumpy old man
Hello i really like your channel , I love neipas and in the last months they have become very very hoppy . After havin one of those beers which style I can go to? Last time I had a stout and it felt like syrup, should I left the most hopped beers for the end instead?
hey Walter - you mean what beer should you have next on a night? If so, I'd definitely leave the IPAs and DIPAs to the end unless you intend to keep drinking them all night. Generally build intensity throughout the night to avoid your palate getting tired - if you need to refresh your palate try a sour beer to cleanse it.
So DIPA isnt really a style, it is just a stronger IPA, so it is is still an NEIPA. I guess technically it is a DNEIPA...? Oh and as for trying the other beers we just ran out of time in the edit!
Best West Coast IPA I've had recently is Strong men also cry by Pamona Island. There's been a lot of hype about Pamona, but I found this is the only beer of theirs I've really loved. Every minute matters by Siren was also great. How do you find Deya compares to the classic US NEIPAs like Treehouse and the Alchemist? They've been my brewery of choice during lockdown, and I think their juicy IPAs and DIPAs are just the best beers in the UK at the moment.
Yes we've had a very mixed bag from Pomono but enjoyed a few. Not had that one though. With regards to DEYA, they compare extremely well to Treehouse (I think you meant Treehouse?) - and so do Verdant, Cloudwater, NMBC, North and lots of others. UK beer is as good as US beer, it just doesn't have the strength in depth of the States. The Alchemist make VERY different kinds of beer though - their hazy IPAs are dank, complex and bitter so although they started the revolution they don't really like where it has gone! Have you seen our mini documentary with John from the brewery? ua-cam.com/video/x84OsiVaO9U/v-deo.html
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Yes, I meant Treehouse. Must have been picturing the Green can one when I was writing it. The Alchemist (Heady Topper particularly) intrigues me most from your Doc, as how you've described it means that I can't think of a UK beer equivalent (any suggestions would be welcomed). Out of the US NEIPAs I've tried (Lawson's sip of sunshine and a couple of Trillium) I didn't think they were much different from the Cloudwater, Verdant, Deya ones I drink most frequently. The best US beers I've tried in the style came from New York (Finback and Other Half). My experience of Pamona has been varied too, but that West Coast one is well worth it if you find it.
There is a brewery in my country called CBC (Cape Brewing Company) when I saw your logo, I thought they have something new on the market & you where reviewing it.
Really informative thanks. I’ve been searching for an IPA that really has that malty, almost chewy / treacle note but with a huge hop hit; in New Zealand the Panhead and Moa beers seemed to really nail that profile. Is West Coast definitely the style to target?
100% - though not all WC IPAs have that chewy caramalt note. Some remain extra pale. Best to check the back and see if they use the words "cara" or "crystal".
Great video chapolads and good to see the dream team back together. I’ve been intrigued by bio transformation for a while now and think that not only does bio transformation of hop compounds contribute elements to the style but also, crucially and often overlooked, bio transformation of malt compounds specific to the typical NEIPA grain Bill. Could be interesting 🤔 Cheers 🍻
Dudes, I'm so glad there are different styles of IPAs! I live in Florida (Tampa area, which many consider the capital of craft beer), so we naturally get the east coast style. But I've had a few west coast IPAs and yeah, they're quite different a bit less hoppy, more piney, and perhaps even a bit more body, if that makes sense. We've some super hoppy east coast IPAs here! Even the session IPAs in Florida still have that bite!
Goodness me there are so many capitals of craft beer these days ;) We have been to Tampa Bay and made many films there! Had some great west coast beers at this amazing place ua-cam.com/video/7E3ORRJntJQ/v-deo.html
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Lol...good point...I guess everywhere is the 'capital of craft beer' these days! We (Tampa/Brandon area) were at one point the capital of metal!!! I and some other local musicians are trying to bring that back! Just discovered your channel, btw...love what you guys are doing!
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the water profile because I have done everything mentioned in the video making homebrew and had crystal clear dry IPAs. They were very delicious but not juicy at all. If I change my water profile I can make almost anything “juicy”. As always, thanks for the video.
Hey Julian - totally correct. We mentioned that vibe in the mouthfeel bit but yes we probably should have mentioned hop water profile adjusts both body and how the hops present themselves. These videos are, however, meant to be really approachable so we worried it would create more questions than it answered!
Love all 3 of those breweries. Had a Lupy as a Toucan back in 2014 when I knew nothing about ales, won a box of beers and 2 of Shane’s beers in their. Not looked back since!
Craving Old School More & More Lately! New Englands are Delicious don't get me wrong but miss the older, clean, Bitter, dry sweet!! Been drinking Zombie Dust by Three Floyd's! Awesome beer, great change from juice!! 🤙🍻
I tried Samuel Smith’s India Ale the other day. This was my first old school English style IPA and was barely resemblant of any American IPA whatsoever. Much more herbal and more subtle bitterness. Was better than both New England and West Coast style IPAs in my opinion.
I will give that a go for sure! The American styles are something else, as you say. The Glen Spean Brewing IPA is a thing of beauty. If you like traditional IPA, try that
Great Video! Ironically, though, US-05 is often attributed to adding some peach flavours to the beer :D Not the same as a fruity British strain, but still ;)
It's actually become a bit tricky to find a decent West Coast IPA in the UK these days! NEIPAs everywhere, to the point where some breweries don't even bother to specify that it's a NEIPA. I like both, but hybrids are also great - best of both worlds. Thanks for the vid and great to see you guys back on the sofa together!
Yes we are quietly trying to push for more WC beers in the UK. Feels like we skipped that step a bit - we were just getting good at them and then NEIPA came along and dominated. There are some great ones coming from Marble, Lost and Grounded, Weird Beard and, of course, Cheshire Brewhouse!
Great video gents, thank you. Whenever I have a NEIPA from a can I find that it tastes completely different from the bottom half, especially if I swirl the can to agitate the yeast at the bottom and get it into the glass. Is this what I should be doing, or am I introducing a character to the beer that the brewer didn't intend?
Hmmm...quick point in that a well made NEIPA shouldn't have any yeast in it - all that haze should be proteins and pretty flavour neutral but it does affect body. Anyway, with that style you should assume what's in the can is supposed to be drunk! The only time you want to leave sediment behind is if the beer is bottle conditioned (so naturally carbonated in the bottle)
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Thanks guys - it might not be yeast but whatever it is it improves the flavour to my palette when mixed in. I'm working my way through a crate from BBNo so I've taken in as read that they know what they're doing - cheers!
Sometimes I get beers that have hop particulate in the bottom of the can and that last sip can really burn the throat. It's not intended to be that way. Larger breweries are able to centrifuge it out but smaller ones may not have that kind of equipment available to them, so some particles inevitably make it into the packaged beer.
My favourite "normal" IPA was Epic IPA from New Zealand. They don't make it anymore, I don't know why. EC IPA are so many and so juicy that it's very hard to choose. I'll take one.
You forgot to mention the step after NEIPAs… The Milkshake IPA taking that sweetness to the next level. I would say after we saw the massive amounts of milkshake IPAs hit the market that the IPA market started swinging back towards the middle again.
That is not a NEIPA. They are cloudy it’s true and do have a sense of wheat to them, but a true NEIPA from New England do not have fruit forward. If anything they reside in the back if at all and they do have a bitterness to them. Real NEIPA have a sense of funk to them. Almost like a cheese. They are also dense and have that silliness but also a high ABV, bunch like a double or even a triple. Many people dislike them for this reason, but like anything if you develop a taste for them they are nuanced and delicious. I really love the 1620 from Ipswich brewery. I get a couple growlers when there because I can’t get it around here, which is a shame but it definitely makes me look forward to my annual trip to the north shore ma. That and the fired clams. Cheers!
I'll try all manner of IPAs, but I always come back to: Red Racer IPA from Central City Brewery - centralcitybrewing.com/product/red-racer-ipa/ and Fat Tug from Driftwood - driftwoodbeer.com/beers/fat-tug-ipa/ I once heard a rep from a brewery in the east say that their new IPA was, "the Fat Tug of Ontario."
Two hearted is a classic style east coast IPA. Bell’s has nothing to do with the west coast. Next we’ll hear the Dogfish Head made a west coast IPA from Delaware.
I've always felt the east coast IPAs had a flavor akin to iron, I figured it had something to do with differences in the water tables as opposed to process related.
I’ve heard some beer experts break down the New England IPA style down even further. They talk about what they call the Vermont NEIPA using The Alchemist, Hill Farmstead, and Lawson’s Finest Liquids as the standard bearers. The beers by these breweries do indeed have a bitter flavor on the tongue, which leads me to believe hops are also added on the “hot side” as I’ve heard it called. (I’m not a brewer myself so please correct my terminology if needed.) Many other breweries in this area (I’m in NYC) make full-bodied, hazy IPAs that add juiciness but don’t eliminate bitterness. Heady Topper is certainly a bitter beer as are some of my favorites like Wrench by Industrial Arts and the fantastic Magnetic series by Grimm. Other breweries make pure juice, which I am very much not a fan of. Do you make a distinction between NEIPAs that retain bitterness but balance out the beer with haze, body and juiciness and those that eliminate bitterness altogether?
We don't really think a beer can be strongly bitter and still called an NEIPA. The point of this style is to accentuate the juicy hop and yeast characters and ensure as smooth a finish as possible. If you add bitterness in there you are moving away from that style (even if it can be delicious). So there is a bit of a grey area between West Coast and New England beers - hazy, juicy but bitter beer. Not sure Vermont NEIPA is a good name for it, but we should probably find one!
please get some Other Half or Monkish IPAs, they are the gold standard of hazy IPAs. Trillium and Great Notion and Equilibrium have some amazing beers but Monkish and Other Half are amazing
I would say so - depends on how you design craft but in the super niche bit of it everything meant to be drunk fresh is canned, while stuff for ageing is still bottled.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Interesting, here in the US most seems to be in bottles. There are some exceptions, I can get Sierra Nevada in cans in the Summer.
Thank you, I've struggled to get the desired results from some of my home brew IPA's and its seems to be because I was lacking this info. Next brew's a custard cream pale ale so going to apply the (y)East coast method. Cheers Guys ! 🍺
I thought that I didn’t like IPAs until I tried a new england IPA. I agree about the arms race regarding bitterness. Beer needs to be balanced and these new styles are a turnoff to me.
What about the aftertaste? The times I've had NEIPAs, the aftertaste is the most distinguishing factor. I love IPAs. I really like NEIPAs until they've gone down the tube.
What kind of aftertaste are we talking here? The lack of bitterness and smooth, sweeter note? That's definitely a key part of it but I think we covered that
New sub here. Can you guys do a video of the best low carb, low calaorie, beers. Or the best session ipa's. The pandemic is making me drink more beers at home, but it's taking it's toll on my body.
Haha - we'll have a think on it! We are not really low-cal kind of people and there aren't many varieties in the UK, but we can definitely do a video on session IPAs!
Indeed. The first American/West Coast IPA was brewed at Anchor in 1975, but it didn't get very popular to til the heady days of the 90s. The precursor to NEIPA was Heady Topper made in the early 2000s, but it's very different to the versions that came about in around 2014-15 and exploded all over the world.
The worst beer (to me) I ever had was a 'free' pk of Vt's "Frost Beer Works" "Mosaic" and "Pony Boy." I learned I hate Mosaic hops: citrusy grapefruit, with penetrating Sauterne sour wine clinging tastes. WCIPA: I do like caramel malt alot. Some WCIPA's seem (to me) to 'just throw in too much, as if 'More was always better.' I like British-Irish caramel-malt red ales/beer,s like Sam Adams Octoberfest, & Harpoon, &Ales, & Pilseners, refreshing German/Danish style beers. I just found your channel. I hope you have shows on craft beers for people who usually don't like either the orange/grapefruit New England IPAs or the extra-whallopy WCIPAs.
I am teaching a beer appreciation class (on-line due to Covid) for Walla Walla Community College in Walla Walla, Washington. As "homework" for our upcoming session on IPAs, I am having the class watch this video. I hope that is OK with you! I wish I had homework like this when I was in college. Actually, I think I had a little too much beer homework! Thanks for the awesome videos!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel I'll be using the video again this week. I'm assigning it as "homework"! But they have to drink a beer (or several) while watching!
I really like this channel, it's super interesting and informative. I just can't understand why the guy on the right talks so much. I've seen a bunch of videos where the guy on the left just nods and agrees with what he says. It feels like the talkative, professor-like guy doesn't leave space for the other guy to expose what he has to say. It's sad because it seems he could also add a lot to the show. At some extent, the video feel like a monologue from the guy on the right.
It's pure torture to just watch people drink good beer.
Why ? You can bought good beer to
I can just sit here and hear you guys all day. Great job with the channel, best thing I've discovered in this eternal quarantine. Cheers from Argentina!
Thanks so much!
So! What are your favourite West Coast IPAs? We'll go first - Racer 5, Russian River Blind Pig, Troegs Perpetual, Pressure Drop Bosko.
Also, after filming Shane of the Cheshire Brewhouse got in touch to say he uses Munich malt rather than cara/crystal and actually uses his British ale yeast for all his beers (just different hopping rates/regimes/water treatment to differ his West Coasts and more New England style ones).
Racer 5 and Blind Pig are in my top whatever too. I'd also throw in Sculpin, Pliny the Elder, and Green Flash West Coast IPA.
Stone IPA....and then I know it doesn't count. But im making an exception. Favorite non NEIPA is no competition Bell's Two Hearted. So good.
Beachwood Amalgamator, Alpine Nelson, THC IPA, 60 minute ipa
@@brotherjohn2002 Stone IPA is always good.
@@brotherjohn2002 Stone was my favorite many years ago. But if you take a close look at the bottle it now says v. 2.0 Not nearly as good as before. Nowadays i would say Henhouse IPA from Sonoma County CA. Also Pernicious IPA from Wicked Weed in North Carolina.
Although I love NEIPAs but every time I go back to a good West coast IPA I feel like I'm getting to know a long lost friend.
Us too! There is something so nostalgic about the style - such an important period in both brewing and many people's beer journeys.
Pp
When i brew new england ipa i like to use the farmhouse yeasts from norway. I also have a great west coast-ish ipa that is loosly based on Traditional scandinavian farmhouse ales. I use a Lot of juniper berries and some juniper branches, piney hops, and a lithuanian farmhouse yeast.
Love this, great topic. Oh, the days of IPA's you could see through. So true that many have forgotten about the West Coast IPA. The amount of beer flowing out of NE breweries is amazing. One of the best West coast IPA's-- Maine Beer Company --Lunch!
Great beer and a great brewery!
I’ve always loved IPA for the breadth of styles within styles. Even before the New England thing the amount of interpretation and variation of West Coast IPA was crazy
Great video. Just found your channel...I will definitely be subscribing. What's sad to me is how many beer drinkers first exposure to IPAs was more of the West Coast style and the experience just blew them away with the extreme bitterness. I hear people all that time say something like "I don't like IPAs...they're too bitter"...to which I respond "have you ever tried a New England style IPA?" Love what you guys are doing (I'm watching from Arizona). I might have to start home-brewing so I'll have something to do with all of my home-grown blood oranges every January.
Fantastic video and so informative. Love all Styles of IPAs and I’m personally a fan of the bitter smash lol . But so much to learn . Just ordered your book . Cheers guys
Speno
The bitterness of west coast IPAs is pretty overwhelming at first. I remember my first time visiting Oregon in 2017 (from the U.K.) and all the beer seemed to be this style - clear, insanely bitter and ABVs of like 8-10%. Complete opposite of Britain where the strongest easily available IPA was Punk. I love that kind of beer now though and still feel like Britain has a lot of catching up to do when it comes to the modern IPAs!
This is the first video I have seen by you guys. I enjoyed it very much, along with a lovely New England IPA!
Bad ass Channel! My way of explaining New England IPA to a West Coast IPA is preference, East coast style usually is unfiltered with a more expressive yeast, with fruit that has a doughy lacing to it. The reason is because the style of brewing during the British colonial era, they didn't go the extra step of filtering or dry hoping. West Coast IPA's are newer to the beer scene, as West coast IPA's are more hop forward and have a dank smell of hops. With a large variety of filtering and dry hoping to add bitterness, while keeping fermentation with fruit added. To sum it up whatever your pallet enjoys there is more flavors of beer then there is actual taste buds on your tongue. With that said, raise your glass high! Cheers!
All good detail to add...though worth noting that British breweries have been dry hopping for centuries. Just not anywhere near in the quantities we see today.
I admit I surrendered to the bitterness wars. Had a few friends that were big on piney hoppy finishes. I swore off IPAs. Then a local beer blogger explained to me that I don't dislike IPAs, I dislike certain hops. So, I've done some research & sampling & I am IN LOVE WITH juicy NEIPAs with Citra & Mossaic.
Glad you found your jam Mike! It is probably not just the hops bringing the flavours you like though - most piney, hoppy beers will use citra too. It's how they are used, and the recipe of the beer. As we say in the video, NEIPAs are as much about the yeast character (stone fruit, sweeter finish) as the hops (used very late and heavily to pronounce juicy notes). So don't write off beers that don't use citra/mosaic, just check to see if it's a New England or West Coast style!
Brilliant vid guys. Enjoyed the in-depth discussion and banter. Time to crack open a beer!
OK, a few moments ago I saw your PORTER exposition, now I'm seeing your presentation on IPAs.
Can't say I've been much of an IPA fan, but I have SLIGHTLY warmed to them. Particular to my local pub is one with a heavy dose of grapefruit to it, that grows on me without making my gorge rise from bitterness or the chewing of pine needles.
Currently four of the beers on draft at the local there are IPAs of wildly different types.
I find newbs that get into IPAs are doing so as a sort of brutal set of training wheels for graduates of the Budweiser crowd, who have discovered some things called FLAVORS and BODY.
Frankly I prefer a malt-forward brew, but I have modified my tastes a bit.
Well done, keep up the good work, I understand the sacrifices you have to make in your pursuits.
love these episodes that go in depth on different styles of beer
i like that, its helped me very well, trying out some s-33 yeast straight away, thanks master.
watching this gave me a real craving for an old school (aka from like 5-10 years ago) west cost IPA. On another note, the apartment that I rent (basement of really really old people) have the exact same sofa-cushions as Brad! ;)
Hahahahaha strangely that will make Brad VERY happy! As for craving West Coasters we always come back from trips to the States going "where the hell are our west coast IPAs?!" The craving is real.
Fascinating vid guys, really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Cheers
I always compare the hop addition process to tour groups with making tea in the boil vs cold brew sun tea. Nice to see someone else say the same thing
Hops is like adding weed to a joint or bread and 🧈
Falcon smash is the best neipa hands down. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
I have not had it but I'm gonna give you a standing ovation anyway!
I love a citrusy Hazy IPA. I don’t know if I’ve had a west coast IPA. I’m not a fan of very bitter beers, but my tastes are constantly changing.
They are harder to find these days and significantly more bitter, but if you don't like really bitter beers it's just because you haven't had enough of them! It's like chillies. My advice is look for some "Mountain IPAs" which are supposedly a cross between the two - fresher and lighter than NEIPA but still juicy
Very important issue. Glad you guys are well
Thanks guys gave me some good info I like my IPA and didn't know why I got such a difference tasting beer I'm a fan of both beer but like the west coast more
There is an ipa by lead dog called 'formal warning' where the bittering hops is on the fore front of the sip and disappears on the finish
Loved it when Celcius degrees were used in the narrative.
Is there another way!? Not in our book.
my favourite would be anything with lots of Mosaic or Equinox [Equanot]
it all makes sense now! I'm a new england IPA fan, thanks guys
it's funny how New England IPA started out as a 70 IBU beer with Heady Topper probably being one of the first attributed to that style and it's ended up as a low hop fruit juice. I love both ends of the spectrum but somewhere in the middle is my favorite.
Ha, yeah it's true. In our video with John at the Alchemist he says he doesn't really enjoy the beers that he's inspired (though there are some exceptions). We think there is room for both approaches in the genre!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel
Had Heady a few weeks back for the first time in years, Threes in Brooklyn got a shipment. If Other Half, Finback, or Threes made a clone of Heady they would call it a WCIPA.
All the boutique IPA lovers shit on Sierra's Hazy Little Thing but to me it is more in line with Heady Topper in that it has decent bitterness as well as the juicy flavors typically associated with the style.
Just listening to your podcast on this vid and nodding my head the whole time lol. God I love a WCIPA. Had a banging, caramalt heavy (yes a strong malt backbone is a defining characteristic of a WCIPA!) hybrid from S43 recently (you need to do a vid on them ASAP) called 'Was It A Car Or A Cat I Saw?' which had some lovely piney West Coast characteristics, but was also juicy and soft. Also got some Verdant 'Pigs All Day' on its way to me, and am very excited to get my laughing gear around that! Finally I've also been very much enjoying a Tiny Rebel 'Cali Pale Ale', which was bought for me in keg form as a birthday present for my Perfect Draft (the PD was also bought for me) and was very surprised at how much they had hopped the shit out of that beer, as I usually find Tiny Rebel to be very... mass market focussed. Piney as anything. Sidenote - Jaipur is fucking incredible out of a PD.
Great video.
Love Bosko. Pressure Drop absolutely nail the NE style (particularly in a DIPA), but this one always stands out for me.
DEYA 500ml cans could also be very smart marketing (obvs the beer is great regardless). Stands out a mile in a sea of 440ml
LOVE YOUR SHOW. I DONT EVEN DRINK ANYMORE BUT STILL ENJOY.
Johnny I just ordered a case from flavourly and found your craft beer textbook. Cracking read with a beer. Really informative. Keep up the good work lads. 👍🏻
I love a New England IPA and prefer them to a West Coast
While I’m a native Californian who’s only grown up on the west coast, I have to say that I prefer hazy New England style IPAs over traditional west coast IPAs.
Back in my hop head days of 2013-2016ish, I for sure got mango juice and pineapple juice notes (alongside the bitter/piney/danky notes) from massive west coast IPAs. But then I tried a Hazy/NEIPA for the first time probably in 2018 and obviously it was WAY MORE juicy, but I suppose it's somewhat subjective based of experience. What I mean is, if you've never had a NEIPA, it's wouldn't be uncommon to find tropical fruit notes and citrus fruit notes in west coast IPAs as I have here all over Southern California.
Great video! Thanks!
watching this whilst drinking some "Vocation" Love & Hate New England IPA is amazing! best Tuesday ever
I'm drinking "Vocation" Hop Skip and Juice.
@@davidmacgregor5193 any good?
The IBU limit is due to solubility of the bittering agents: primarily iso-alpha-acid as the non isometised alpha acid is comparetively insoluble. Boiling the hops isomerises them making them more soluble, this is a large part of the reason beer is boiled. The solubility limit is approximately 110IBUs. You could put ten times as many hops in and boil hotter for ten times as long, and it wouldn't get any more bitter.
There is a way to get more iso-alpha-acid into the beer than the 110IBU solubility limit. I discovered it inadvertently. Definitely not a good idea though. 110IBU is enough.
Sounds like you read that out of a book
Whaaaaaat?
i think what you're saying is - due to the physics of the molecules in hops that actually cause bitterness once you put in enough hops to equal 110ibus of bitterness no more of the molecules will be able to become "soluble" or mixed into the beer, so it can't taste any more bitter.
I've grown tired of NE IPAs and crave old style West coast up IPAs but have trouble finding them. If I want sweet I'll drink a barleywine. If I want juice, I'll drink juice.
I went to the carlsberg brewery tour and now have a fascination with beer. Fun fact about carlsberg: the pH scale was devised in their scientific research facility on site at their brewery. Surprised me and didnt believe it at first
They did that and a WHOLE lot more. My book all about these kinds of stories, called the Meaning of Beer is out in November!
Great vid chaps!! And where can I get me one of those glasses? Cheers 🍺
I believe they are out of stock right now, but should be more coming to Beer Merchants soon.
Excellent video that raises an obvious question for me: what happens if you use a NEIPA yeast strain in a more typical West Coast recipe?
You get a mountain IPA, which we brewed here: ua-cam.com/video/GNuAhzOuraE/v-deo.html
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Awesome work guys! Loving the channel.
I love hazies but back in my day (2008) an East Coast IPA was somewhere between an English IPA and a West Coast IPA, the best known example being Dogfish 60 Minute. /grumpy old man
Hello i really like your channel , I love neipas and in the last months they have become very very hoppy . After havin one of those beers which style I can go to? Last time I had a stout and it felt like syrup, should I left the most hopped beers for the end instead?
hey Walter - you mean what beer should you have next on a night? If so, I'd definitely leave the IPAs and DIPAs to the end unless you intend to keep drinking them all night. Generally build intensity throughout the night to avoid your palate getting tired - if you need to refresh your palate try a sour beer to cleanse it.
Love your work guys!
You need to come out to the west coast then. We have FAR better to offer locally. ;)
Stone ipa is so overrated... And i live 30 mins from the brewery.
Agreed! I’d prefer a racer 5 over stone ipa.
The bitterness arms race, or "hopped to high hell." It's like eating, or trying to eat, screaming hot peppers. They're just not enjoyable.
Indeed and thankfully that trend has all but died
This was great! Thanks chaps! 🍻
Very informative!! Sure is interesting
Love the variety of IPAs. Good video 🍺
Great video again lads, but why have u said the dipa is a neipa? Also how come u never had review the other 2 beers?
So DIPA isnt really a style, it is just a stronger IPA, so it is is still an NEIPA. I guess technically it is a DNEIPA...?
Oh and as for trying the other beers we just ran out of time in the edit!
Liked the background info, thanks a lot👍
I dont mind a neipa but give me good old west coast ipa any day of the week 👍
Best West Coast IPA I've had recently is Strong men also cry by Pamona Island. There's been a lot of hype about Pamona, but I found this is the only beer of theirs I've really loved. Every minute matters by Siren was also great.
How do you find Deya compares to the classic US NEIPAs like Treehouse and the Alchemist? They've been my brewery of choice during lockdown, and I think their juicy IPAs and DIPAs are just the best beers in the UK at the moment.
Yes we've had a very mixed bag from Pomono but enjoyed a few. Not had that one though. With regards to DEYA, they compare extremely well to Treehouse (I think you meant Treehouse?) - and so do Verdant, Cloudwater, NMBC, North and lots of others. UK beer is as good as US beer, it just doesn't have the strength in depth of the States. The Alchemist make VERY different kinds of beer though - their hazy IPAs are dank, complex and bitter so although they started the revolution they don't really like where it has gone! Have you seen our mini documentary with John from the brewery? ua-cam.com/video/x84OsiVaO9U/v-deo.html
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Yes, I meant Treehouse. Must have been picturing the Green can one when I was writing it. The Alchemist (Heady Topper particularly) intrigues me most from your Doc, as how you've described it means that I can't think of a UK beer equivalent (any suggestions would be welcomed). Out of the US NEIPAs I've tried (Lawson's sip of sunshine and a couple of Trillium) I didn't think they were much different from the Cloudwater, Verdant, Deya ones I drink most frequently. The best US beers I've tried in the style came from New York (Finback and Other Half).
My experience of Pamona has been varied too, but that West Coast one is well worth it if you find it.
There is a brewery in my country called CBC (Cape Brewing Company) when I saw your logo, I thought they have something new on the market & you where reviewing it.
I definitely sit more on the East Coast side but still enjoy a decent Westy every now and then!
Variation is the spice of life, right? Or maybe hops are.
Really informative thanks. I’ve been searching for an IPA that really has that malty, almost chewy / treacle note but with a huge hop hit; in New Zealand the Panhead and Moa beers seemed to really nail that profile. Is West Coast definitely the style to target?
100% - though not all WC IPAs have that chewy caramalt note. Some remain extra pale. Best to check the back and see if they use the words "cara" or "crystal".
Great video chapolads and good to see the dream team back together. I’ve been intrigued by bio transformation for a while now and think that not only does bio transformation of hop compounds contribute elements to the style but also, crucially and often overlooked, bio transformation of malt compounds specific to the typical NEIPA grain Bill. Could be interesting 🤔 Cheers 🍻
Iiiiiiinteresting point. I must see if I can dig out some research on that.
Dudes, I'm so glad there are different styles of IPAs! I live in Florida (Tampa area, which many consider the capital of craft beer), so we naturally get the east coast style. But I've had a few west coast IPAs and yeah, they're quite different a bit less hoppy, more piney, and perhaps even a bit more body, if that makes sense. We've some super hoppy east coast IPAs here! Even the session IPAs in Florida still have that bite!
Goodness me there are so many capitals of craft beer these days ;) We have been to Tampa Bay and made many films there! Had some great west coast beers at this amazing place ua-cam.com/video/7E3ORRJntJQ/v-deo.html
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Lol...good point...I guess everywhere is the 'capital of craft beer' these days! We (Tampa/Brandon area) were at one point the capital of metal!!! I and some other local musicians are trying to bring that back! Just discovered your channel, btw...love what you guys are doing!
The only people who consider Tampa the capital of craft been live in Tampa.
The west coast is the capital of craft beer.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the water profile because I have done everything mentioned in the video making homebrew and had crystal clear dry IPAs. They were very delicious but not juicy at all. If I change my water profile I can make almost anything “juicy”. As always, thanks for the video.
Hey Julian - totally correct. We mentioned that vibe in the mouthfeel bit but yes we probably should have mentioned hop water profile adjusts both body and how the hops present themselves. These videos are, however, meant to be really approachable so we worried it would create more questions than it answered!
Great video!
Love all 3 of those breweries. Had a Lupy as a Toucan back in 2014 when I knew nothing about ales, won a box of beers and 2 of Shane’s beers in their. Not looked back since!
Such a great beer. Perfect balance of pine, resin, sweet caramalt and hits of peel and bitterness.
Craving Old School More & More Lately! New Englands are Delicious don't get me wrong but miss the older, clean, Bitter, dry sweet!! Been drinking Zombie Dust by Three Floyd's! Awesome beer, great change from juice!! 🤙🍻
Craft was all about getting variation right? So it's great to mix it up!
Importants things in the world indeed.
I absolutely love a New England IPA. So good.
I tried Samuel Smith’s India Ale the other day. This was my first old school English style IPA and was barely resemblant of any American IPA whatsoever. Much more herbal and more subtle bitterness. Was better than both New England and West Coast style IPAs in my opinion.
I will give that a go for sure! The American styles are something else, as you say. The Glen Spean Brewing IPA is a thing of beauty. If you like traditional IPA, try that
Great Video! Ironically, though, US-05 is often attributed to adding some peach flavours to the beer :D Not the same as a fruity British strain, but still ;)
Fair point! No fermentation is flavour free!
It's actually become a bit tricky to find a decent West Coast IPA in the UK these days! NEIPAs everywhere, to the point where some breweries don't even bother to specify that it's a NEIPA. I like both, but hybrids are also great - best of both worlds. Thanks for the vid and great to see you guys back on the sofa together!
Yes we are quietly trying to push for more WC beers in the UK. Feels like we skipped that step a bit - we were just getting good at them and then NEIPA came along and dominated. There are some great ones coming from Marble, Lost and Grounded, Weird Beard and, of course, Cheshire Brewhouse!
Great video gents, thank you. Whenever I have a NEIPA from a can I find that it tastes completely different from the bottom half, especially if I swirl the can to agitate the yeast at the bottom and get it into the glass. Is this what I should be doing, or am I introducing a character to the beer that the brewer didn't intend?
Hmmm...quick point in that a well made NEIPA shouldn't have any yeast in it - all that haze should be proteins and pretty flavour neutral but it does affect body. Anyway, with that style you should assume what's in the can is supposed to be drunk! The only time you want to leave sediment behind is if the beer is bottle conditioned (so naturally carbonated in the bottle)
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Thanks guys - it might not be yeast but whatever it is it improves the flavour to my palette when mixed in. I'm working my way through a crate from BBNo so I've taken in as read that they know what they're doing - cheers!
Ollie Try slowly rolling the can on the table to agitate the ingredients before pouring into your glass.
Sometimes I get beers that have hop particulate in the bottom of the can and that last sip can really burn the throat. It's not intended to be that way. Larger breweries are able to centrifuge it out but smaller ones may not have that kind of equipment available to them, so some particles inevitably make it into the packaged beer.
how can i get one of those glasses??
Should be in stock on beermerchants.com!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel but where ?? There is no merch section 😳🙄
"Tounge retracting and goes kicking your balls"
Where do you get all that beer poetry from? And can we have some more, please :D
It just comes to us. Like a kick in the crotch.
Love you guys, and love the mexican blanket!!!!!
How do I get hold of one of your glasses??
Right here! www.beermerchants.com/craft-beer-channel-glass-7679
Loved the vid!
The anecdote reminds me of thinking you’re about to eat a grape and then you bite into a kalamata olive
My favourite "normal" IPA was Epic IPA from New Zealand. They don't make it anymore, I don't know why. EC IPA are so many and so juicy that it's very hard to choose. I'll take one.
You forgot to mention the step after NEIPAs… The Milkshake IPA taking that sweetness to the next level. I would say after we saw the massive amounts of milkshake IPAs hit the market that the IPA market started swinging back towards the middle again.
That is not a NEIPA. They are cloudy it’s true and do have a sense of wheat to them, but a true NEIPA from New England do not have fruit forward. If anything they reside in the back if at all and they do have a bitterness to them. Real NEIPA have a sense of funk to them. Almost like a cheese. They are also dense and have that silliness but also a high ABV, bunch like a double or even a triple. Many people dislike them for this reason, but like anything if you develop a taste for them they are nuanced and delicious. I really love the 1620 from Ipswich brewery. I get a couple growlers when there because I can’t get it around here, which is a shame but it definitely makes me look forward to my annual trip to the north shore ma. That and the fired clams. Cheers!
I'll try all manner of IPAs, but I always come back to:
Red Racer IPA from Central City Brewery - centralcitybrewing.com/product/red-racer-ipa/
and
Fat Tug from Driftwood - driftwoodbeer.com/beers/fat-tug-ipa/
I once heard a rep from a brewery in the east say that their new IPA was, "the Fat Tug of Ontario."
can you add a link to this singing situation?
It is in our documentary! ua-cam.com/video/hndGk61qBXM/v-deo.html
Great video. Ipa all day every day
Try a Bell's Two Hearted. It's an American-style IPA.
A classic west coast IPA we have had many times!
Two hearted is a classic style east coast IPA. Bell’s has nothing to do with the west coast. Next we’ll hear the Dogfish Head made a west coast IPA from Delaware.
I've always felt the east coast IPAs had a flavor akin to iron, I figured it had something to do with differences in the water tables as opposed to process related.
I think what you are getting there is an powdery chalkiness related to the water treatment used to enhance the body of NEIPA
I’ve heard some beer experts break down the New England IPA style down even further.
They talk about what they call the Vermont NEIPA using The Alchemist, Hill Farmstead, and Lawson’s Finest Liquids as the standard bearers. The beers by these breweries do indeed have a bitter flavor on the tongue, which leads me to believe hops are also added on the “hot side” as I’ve heard it called. (I’m not a brewer myself so please correct my terminology if needed.) Many other breweries in this area (I’m in NYC) make full-bodied, hazy IPAs that add juiciness but don’t eliminate bitterness. Heady Topper is certainly a bitter beer as are some of my favorites like Wrench by Industrial Arts and the fantastic Magnetic series by Grimm. Other breweries make pure juice, which I am very much not a fan of.
Do you make a distinction between NEIPAs that retain bitterness but balance out the beer with haze, body and juiciness and those that eliminate bitterness altogether?
We don't really think a beer can be strongly bitter and still called an NEIPA. The point of this style is to accentuate the juicy hop and yeast characters and ensure as smooth a finish as possible. If you add bitterness in there you are moving away from that style (even if it can be delicious). So there is a bit of a grey area between West Coast and New England beers - hazy, juicy but bitter beer. Not sure Vermont NEIPA is a good name for it, but we should probably find one!
I might like Vermont NEIPA. Balance. And I live in Vermont, just over border from NH.
Whats is east coast ipa tho? I really cant get that.
Yes we have been confused by this and decided it's not a thing. It's just IPA made on the east coast and someone tried to make it a thing and failed.
please get some Other Half or Monkish IPAs, they are the gold standard of hazy IPAs. Trillium and Great Notion and Equilibrium have some amazing beers but Monkish and Other Half are amazing
We have had both on the channel many times! Here is the last... ua-cam.com/video/TmIMGVBC160/v-deo.html
Is most craft beer in England sold in cans?
I would say so - depends on how you design craft but in the super niche bit of it everything meant to be drunk fresh is canned, while stuff for ageing is still bottled.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Interesting, here in the US most seems to be in bottles. There are some exceptions, I can get Sierra Nevada in cans in the Summer.
Thank you, I've struggled to get the desired results from some of my home brew IPA's and its seems to be because I was lacking this info. Next brew's a custard cream pale ale so going to apply the (y)East coast method. Cheers Guys ! 🍺
Must admit I’m a big fan of New England IPAs but as I’m fairly new to craft beer that’s probably to be expected.
And it's a wonderful route into the world of craft beer! Lots more to explore.
I thought that I didn’t like IPAs until I tried a new england IPA. I agree about the arms race regarding bitterness. Beer needs to be balanced and these new styles are a turnoff to me.
Absolutely agreed. I don't like APA or IPAs unless the bitterness is balanced. No one taste bud should be overwhelmed.
What about the aftertaste? The times I've had NEIPAs, the aftertaste is the most distinguishing factor. I love IPAs. I really like NEIPAs until they've gone down the tube.
What kind of aftertaste are we talking here? The lack of bitterness and smooth, sweeter note? That's definitely a key part of it but I think we covered that
New sub here. Can you guys do a video of the best low carb, low calaorie, beers. Or the best session ipa's. The pandemic is making me drink more beers at home, but it's taking it's toll on my body.
Haha - we'll have a think on it! We are not really low-cal kind of people and there aren't many varieties in the UK, but we can definitely do a video on session IPAs!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Interesting. It's getting super popular here in the US. All the major craft brewery is coming up with their own version.
What is haze?
It's mostly proteins from wheat and oats from the mash
So NEIPA is newer than West coast styles?
Yep.
Indeed. The first American/West Coast IPA was brewed at Anchor in 1975, but it didn't get very popular to til the heady days of the 90s. The precursor to NEIPA was Heady Topper made in the early 2000s, but it's very different to the versions that came about in around 2014-15 and exploded all over the world.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel I guess the westcoast styles emerged from UK style ipa?
Love from NE
The worst beer (to me) I ever had was a 'free' pk of Vt's "Frost Beer Works" "Mosaic" and "Pony Boy." I learned I hate Mosaic hops: citrusy grapefruit, with penetrating Sauterne sour wine clinging tastes. WCIPA: I do like caramel malt alot. Some WCIPA's seem (to me) to 'just throw in too much, as if 'More was always better.'
I like British-Irish caramel-malt red ales/beer,s like Sam Adams Octoberfest, & Harpoon, &Ales, & Pilseners, refreshing German/Danish style beers. I just found your channel. I hope you have shows on craft beers for people who usually don't like either the orange/grapefruit New England IPAs or the extra-whallopy WCIPAs.
Across 400 videos and 30 trips abroad we like to think we have covered most of it!
Yes, you can smell the bitterness. I think the finish is why you want another sip.
If you can ever get ahold of Sea dog brewery ipa I would recommend it as a good and entirely different new England ipA
I am teaching a beer appreciation class (on-line due to Covid) for Walla Walla Community College in Walla Walla, Washington. As "homework" for our upcoming session on IPAs, I am having the class watch this video. I hope that is OK with you! I wish I had homework like this when I was in college. Actually, I think I had a little too much beer homework! Thanks for the awesome videos!
We are HONOURED! Thanks for including us. Best of luck with the course.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel I'll be using the video again this week. I'm assigning it as "homework"! But they have to drink a beer (or several) while watching!
I really like this channel, it's super interesting and informative.
I just can't understand why the guy on the right talks so much. I've seen a bunch of videos where the guy on the left just nods and agrees with what he says. It feels like the talkative, professor-like guy doesn't leave space for the other guy to expose what he has to say. It's sad because it seems he could also add a lot to the show.
At some extent, the video feel like a monologue from the guy on the right.
Your typical West Coast IPA is distinguishable by that grapefruit flavor to them.