An Upgraded Vintage Lever Machine
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2023
- Todays video is part nerdery part philosophy and all vintage lever silliness. I’d love to hear what kind of things you’d have liked me to test with a setup like this.
My 2020 video on the Smart Espresso Profiler: • The Smart Espresso Pro...
www.naked-portafilter.com/sma...
Thank you to Gabor for his work on this!
Thumbnail design by Bartosz Kosowski - bartoszkosowski.com/
Using photograph by Steven Lek
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I love that Gabor has taken the approach of a conservator by making sure all the modifications are fully reversible.
Cross over with Baumgartner Restoration?
@@segamble1679 I want an hour long video of James carefully restoring a vintage lever machine, all the while gently commenting on how inappropriate the previous restoration attempt was
I want a girlfriend so I'm no longer lonely
@@segamble1679 From now on filters will be made from washi kozo
@@zlatan_2197 oh dear
Please tell me without the fish gelatine 😋
I really respect that Gabor didn't go against what he stands for the video/content. I think its fantastic he found a work around to get you where you wanted to be whilst keeping a piece of history intact. Pretty inspiring:)
I’m glad for Gabor’s ethics. It looks very cool and functional, and the extra work to not destroy the original is amazing.
the craftsmanship here is blowing my mind
You summed up why I’ve stopped measuring shots. I used a scale, timer, etc. to understand what I like and now get much more pleasure doing it all by sight/feel. It’s like having subtitles on screen when you don’t need them… you can’t help but read them. It’s impossible not to fuss over numbers when they’re presented to you.
Bottomless portafilter been a game changer. Sometimes the shit runs longer sometimes shorter before I notice the extraction changing. I know what I'mooking for and stick to it now. Makes it more of an art but an enjoyable one.
@@chris9650 That is where I am at. I even prepare a puck with different ground densities at the rim to the centre, and watch the extraction in a mirror, doing everything by look and feel. I still have the instrumentation and look at the data after pulling the shot.
Would love to see Gabor in action as well: how was the machine restored, geekout on the tech, etc
There is something truly special about the vintage lever machines. I have been pulling shots on a La Pavoni for 3 years now and feel like I have a true understanding and even feel for what pressures I should be feeling, the sponginess of grounds too far past roast date, etc. I would recommend these machines to anyone getting themselves into home espresso! Such a joy to see James highlighting some of the things us “slightly off” love about these machines 😂😂😂
Agreed.
I've got a '92 europiccola, and I don't really know what's going on (my Vario grinder sometimes gives me ±1.5 g on the SAME settings FFS), so it's great to have a machine that just does it, without aiming for some perfect formula
I've been home brewing expresso since I got a machine for a wedding present and went and found a specialist to show me how to use it 20 years ago. I've always wanted a La Pavoni but I have never had the confidence to take the plunge. Your comment is nudging me again!!! :)
Gabor is THE man. How he balanced the technicality and aesthetic at preserving the machine is not a thing that should be taken for granted. I am an engineer and I kid you not that doing something that has high functionality but keeping the aesthetic as much as possible is not an easy thing. And for me it is an important thing because we are human, and that thing would be a thing that reminds us that we are not a machine and we should appreciate more about its humanity aspects for ourselves and people around us. Appreciating beauty is the thing that makes us us
As a "lever-head" myself, I am so happy that you made this video James. AND, perhaps even more importantly, you're thoughts/theories afterwards. I am very happy with all of the science and tools that has come out, that constantly helps us try to get the "best we can". That is all very useful and helpful. But, yes, there IS also an important aspect of these vintage machines; the art of pulling your shot. Skill that has to be developed over a long period of time. Using sight, taste, sound, smell, etc. And ultimately, all that "really" matters is what YOU like in the cup. I'm still learning the intricacies of my machines, but I also enjoy figuring it out, constantly learning, and improving. It's a process.
"James: "be in the process"
Went through this blind with a group of engineering friends and a Pavoni Europiccola. We learned a lot of the same things without the numeric details (it took 6mo and a 5-dimensional whiteboard graph), but the most important thing we learned was that the way to get quality successive shots was to chill the portafilter in cold tap water between shots. The first shot with the portafilter at room temp is fine because the group head is cooler, but for successive shots, getting that substantial mass down to ~50F between shots when you're cleaning the basket was key.
very interesting!
This, in the best way possible, looks like the kind of machine that would show up in an old Doctor Who or Star Trek episode and I love it
It's always a pleasure to see some lever machines on your channel James and congrats to Gabor for keeping the integrity of the machine!
From our experience, because the boiler of the Faemina is elevated you don't actually need pressure to make water enter into the grouphead, gravity should be enough. So you can actually use the machine at a much lower pressure (and therefore temperature) and let the group warm up slightly more. Because the grouphead is integrated with the boiler it will tend to stabilize at the same temperature, so you can keep water below 100°C and the group won't overheat (or at least less dramatically) and only increase the pressure when you need steam. For people that don't have a Frankenstein Faemina like this one, the water temperature can also be measured pretty easily with an IR thermometer through the sight glass.
James is always kindly reminding us not to be like him, and he’s so real for that.
I agree. Gabor's work on installing those mods in a reversible manner is genius and makes me feel happy.
The point of owning a machine like this is to master it. The probes and balance are nice, and can help to understand how temp, time, pressure relate. But in the end, not needed (because that what James’ videos are for ❤😅)
“Making espresso is always about more than just the end result.”
Revelation! It’s like the tea ceremony!
As a musician and synthesist with GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) it's reassuring to know that others experience the same thing! (13:02) James, maybe you could give us a tour of all the gear you have in the collection. I'd love to see!
The Hames Joffman content writes itself. "I was [...] wrong." "What I wanted to do was [...] fill it [...]. And I tasked one person, Gabor [...] and I want him to tear this thing to pieces"
As a vintage La Pavoni owner I couldn't agree more! I love all the bells and whistles but the only thing that actually gives me enjoyment is the process of pulling that great shot that I enjoy the best.
I like technology. A lot. But I can totally appreciate the kind of simple joy that comes from knowing how to using a tool like this well. You spend time bonding in a sense with a machine like this and down the road you have all these anecdotes about it to share with others. There's a certain harmony to it that only comes from doing something you love to do, even if it's not coffee stuff. Thanks for showing us this really cool project!
The best kind of classic lever machine to PID mod are the old open boiler machines like la peppina or the mini gaggia. You can just use a external PID controller like the inkbird, plug the machine into it and drop the temp sensor into the open boiler. Tada, perfect temperature control.
Plus one for the Open Boiler machines. Mine's a 1950s Arrarex Caravel. Never seems to overheat the group head. No short window performance anxiety James.
I'm keen to do so with my lever in a non destructive way also. One because of respect for the OEM and machine. Two, because of aesthetics and work flow / operation. Nice to have additional information feedback while evaluating the shot in real time and learn from the saved data.
Great call by Gabor. I love restoring vintage items to bring them back to their original function warts and all. Technology has brought as many problems as it has solutions so any device that eschews superfluous complexity has become, for me, a real pleasure to use. That being said, if you can use tech for what it was originally designed for, measuring and data collection, as you have here, that’s brilliant. You should call this a Borg
Your discussion about brewing by "feeling" reminded me of an article I came across a few days ago entitled "The brewer, the yeast, and the boundaries of human agency". Really interesting stuff when we delve into why and how we brew and what that says about us as people
I have always hated hot-rodding (watching classic vehicles be chopped and welded hurts the collector in me) so thanks to Gabor for putting his foot down on the hack sawing of this machine.
Non-permanent Restorable Mods are the way to go in my book.
Brilliant machine. I love the idea of "figuring out" a machine with the tools you created, then removing all of that after using it to get a starting point of how to tweak variables. I have used my Cafelat Robot nearly every day for around 3.5 years, and it's become an art. I don't necessarily need the pressure guage it came with even. You start to pick up on how many fines are in the coffee just by how the water looks when you pour it into the portafilter, etc. It's a flow state now where, like you say, you're just in the process. I thought it was funny that the guy who makes them kinda talks about it like it's a toy, but to me it's a fixture now, I just replace the gasket, keep it cleaned and it trucks on each day. Every new bag of beans is a slightly different experience to tweak.
I bought my Olympia Cremina after watching your video with the profiler on a Cremina.
As a teenager i worked at a shop in Seattle that had a terrific commercial lever espresso machine. I always loved the feel of pulling shots with a lever. I absolutely understand your appreciation of the process of using an old style machine. The feel of a great shot is a delicious delight, especially if i helped make it better by being able to feel the beginning of a channel and letting off pressure so the shot is saved from over extraction! That’s why I love the simple design of the Cremina, because I understand her inside and out. I didn’t want the profiler. While the data is fascinating, I’m more interested in understanding the idiosyncrasies of this bare bones beauty and working with her! Thank you for your passion and your ability to understand the “Art of the Shot” as well as the Science!
I have gotten into coffee and more specifically, espresso, recently from watching a large catalog of your videos. I’m a beer brewer and the science that captivates me with beer production does the same when coffee is discussed in depth.
All that to say, if I could spare the money to get into the hobby beyond my spice grinder and French press, I would. This machine is now my penultimate aim. Something so brutally functional with all the modern measurements that allow for tracking and repeatability.
Simply beautiful.
I make espresso with a faemina most days, it’s a real sweet machine. You get a feel for it over time and I have a pretty effective temp surfing method worked out using a thermal strip and a pressure gauge. It’s super cool to see more data on what’s going on under the hood, thanks for making this video!
I use a la Pavoni Piccolo- first and only espresso machine I have owned. And am now into. 20 plus years of use. And it still keeps getting better as I get better. Buying a proper grinder (I chose a specialita after not getting good results with a pavoni grinder)
So total agree with your comments about feel and experience.
Love the approach of adding without destruction of the original machine, very cool!
Fascinating as always. I got myself a La Pavoni last summer, and so far I have decided against monitoring temperatures and pressures. I’m trying to make coffee in a way that engages the senses as much as possible. Thank you for all the information in this video!
Gusto always!
How are you enjoying it? I've found that when the machine is hella hot it gets the most consistant and lovely espresso. I got myself a 'smart plug' so the machine turns on an hour before I wake up and its been life changing!
@@simonmonto Thank you - it’s great - I’m really enjoying the feel of it. I have a variation on the smart plug - my wife switches it on when she leaves early!
Binge watching James is so cathartic to my soul.
There will always be room for "the originals", the vintage models that did their job to varying degrees of satisfaction, from back in the day. They provide a base line to work from, to improve upon, plus there's all the nostalgia... "Nostalgia" tastes great in memory but not necessarily in person, lol.
"Tiny window for success" is no joke! I had a chance to try out a europiccola with the same two switch heating system for a week and found temperature management to be an absolute nightmare. Adding probes to take some of the guesswork out of it is a really neat approach and I feel somewhat vindicated that my frustrations weren't unfounded 😅. I don't think these machines provide what I'm looking for from espresso, but I can totally see why some people enjoy them. Great video!
I totally agree with this philosophy re this machine. To have this machine in its original form is to have a love and passion for the art/science and process of espresso.
As a lever head I loved this video! I also tuned my La Pavoni - and go by feeling now. Because what's fun at the heart of making espresso by hand is the sensory experience not the reading of charts on screens.
It would be really interesting to see James do a review of a really modern lever machine like the manument to get a comparison.
That lever machine looks fascinating. As always, your videos never disappoint. Keep it up.
I could cook food, or brew coffee. I never use a scale, or a clock.
When I work with great ingredients, I just go on touch and feel. It has never failed me, or if it has, it served to make even better results...
The respect for the machine is admirable. The effort to bring new things into the experience have great value and appear to have been executed thoughtfully! This is a beautiful work of engineering.
What a beautiful machine, and I absolutely love the respect Gabor had for the machine and how he engineered his solution so that it didn't damage it.
Great video as always, James! After my super automatic that I had for 13+ years died, I was without a proper machine for a while. Your coffee in the park video got me into lever machines and now I’m loving my flair 58! So thanks for that!!
As the owner of an Elektra Micro Casa a Leva, there are two things I would love to see you explore with this setup. 1) There is a technique for lowering the group head temperature after a shot that involves running the portafilter under cold water to cool it down and then lock it into the group (empty) to draw out heat. Does this work effectively? 2) A second pull. You noted that you have no control over the end mass, but you do - after the lever has come up you can pull it back down and push more water through. But you don't have to let the lever come all the way up the first time, which lets you control how much total water is pushed through. With practice, you can hit the brew ratio you want pretty consistently. One effect I sometimes notice with this technique is that the lever appears to rise faster on the second pull, suggesting there is less resistance in the puck. I'd love to see the temperature and pressure profile when doing a 'double pull'.
This is awesome! Kudos to you and Gabor 🙌🏻
Great explanation for how lever machines work!
Got my Faemina from Francesco recently. Loving it. Not the usual thermal block machine. The aesthetics and functionality from a machine made in 1960s. Simply amazing. It’s built like a Tank literally. You need the human touch to control the group temperature. ❤
That’s exactly why a La Pavoni is so much fun to use. The craft, the skill, the process, even the pressure profile has to be controlled manually.
Beautiful piece of kit.
I have a 1970s Pavoni lever action. Very similar with min/max elements. Whilst I do have a temperature strip on the group, I rarely look at it. Nor do I weigh the coffee. You do it all by feel and noise. The pressure comes from your arm, the temperature by ear, the coffee by eye. Still the best coffee of all my machines.
Feel the force James.
What a great philosophy. It’s essentially a training aid to use a classic machine, and eventually you can kick the stabilisers off and ride free!
I can appreciate Gabor's and many other's feelings on conserving the original machine, and I don't think it's a wrong feeling at all. At the same time, I feel that sometimes we hold old things a little too preciously. We can pay homage to old things while also breathing new life into them. I'll reiterate though: there's no correct answer, as long as things are being used for as long as they can
Fascinating stuff as always, James. Everything you said especially at the end is exactly how I think and feel about my La Pavoni Europiccola.
Gabor is a great guy! I do appreciate this approach as a vintage machine restorer :)
Restomodding for espresso machines! Lovely, lovely work and a smart decision on Gabor's part. Digging this kind of thing.
Used to own a micro casa leva with PIDs,
I used to keep it on with the boiler @ 97 degrees from 5am till i woke up.
Then raised the boiler temp to 110 quickly, pulled my morning fix, cooled it down by washing the portafilter under the tap, and made a second cup for my wife.
Now running a modified strega.
I own two of them and it’s so much fun! It’s true it’s kind of tricky, and in fact you need time to get it right. But looking back when it was my morning routine, it was great. It’s a wonderful experience. It’s a machine you end up loving…☕️👍😋
So poetic, analytical and romantic in all the right ways. Gabor’s perspective is necessary and refreshing. One of my faves vids!
Really good points made at the end. I can definitely appreciate the benefits of getting a load of data to optimize a process, and then take off the data acquisition stuff so you can just implement the process and enjoy the results! The benefits of analysis without all the paralysis.
Extremely interesting discussion indeed. And yeah, I agree with Gabor, and your eventual conclusion. :)
The philosphy connects, and in a not entirely tangential vein, I want to see a video on your mechanical watch collection/preferences.
This was awesome, love that the original machine is still completely intact.
I'm actually super happy I stumbled across your channel. You have such damn good videos I pretty much am watching them all at this point. I can't wait to see new ones in the future, too.
I watch this channel purely for the nerditude of it.... I drink store brand instant. My buddy, though, is a VERY skilled barista who runs his own artisan roast shop (with scooter delivery!) and I LOVE his Americano. He has my taste figured right down to the third decimal point. So he picks out a number of different beans of different types of different roasts, then grinds them and makes me a cup of coffee that makes me not want to talk while I drink it..... But the thing is... I KNOW I won't enjoy it THAT much if I drink it daily. What takes it from fantastic to angelic is that I only visit him a couple of times a month.
So what I'm trying to say is: I could rather see myself with an old machine like this with all the digitization stripped off. A "trouble child" that I would have to be in the mood for mucking about with. Something I'd pull out on occasion for special moments where it didn't matter if I had to do a few runs to get it right.
I'm not yet done watching the video. But the little cup on the side is so adorable
A very involved experiment and mirrors why I moved my 90's La Pavoni Euro Picolla on and went for a Barista Express. Beautiful machine, fun to play with, but in the end it was always a challenge. I considered adding a PID and temp strip but the thought of ruining the beauty of the machine with a thermocouple wire was too much. Love the content James.
Old school meets new Tech - maybe this reminds us that the simple process is sometimes all we need as part of the journey to get to the final cup. Very interesting.
As a multi-vintage lever user, Kudos to Gabor for making these changes reversible without permanent damage. One learns "arm memory" eventually when it comes to lever machines. This "arm memory" leads to a high level of repeatability as long as other variables are maintained; grind, dose etc.. These and other tools do decrease the learning curve. I still use a thermostat strip for group temps. These pro-sumer type of machines are definitely not for more then 3 shots and 2 at best before cooling is required.
It’s nice to see you and Gabor respecting a wonderful machine and I’m happy to see to refurbishment and improvements you made to it. I would love to know more about the pros and cons of using vintage as opposed to a newer machine. Which one do you prefer and what are notable differences.
First impressions: This thing looks amazing, like if it was part of a scifi/distopian/cyberpunk movie set. While some people see this as "desecration", I see this as peek DIY/right-to-repair success. What you did is turn a barely functional hunk of metal into a top 1% espresso machine. You took a machine no one would want to use and made it into the best of Frankensteins. Respect.
Yesss. It's the journey, more than the destination
Such a great video and helps me understand the dynamics of my Elektra. I use a heat exchanger machine as my daily driver but have kept the lever machine for the experience. It is always fun to use on a rainy day.
Fascinating, I bought an old Astoria lever machine about a year ago, and discovered that it ads variables to the espresso process which I first saw as a whole new world of pain and frustration. A year on, I love it for the same reason - it forced me to learn by taste, sight, smell and feel what I was previously trying to do by measurement and precision. Same problem with heat - I spritz the group with a water spray between shots when it starts to run hot!
Truly appreciate the discussion and the thoughts that some have about appreciating vintage things for what they are. There is a magic to pulling a lever and it just being what you make of it. For me, I'm definitely a data geek and a technophile and I'm happy things like the Meticulous will exist to satiate my needs to analyze everything. And more I'm happy that everyone is able to find a place in the community. Sometimes I read Reddit and everyone is judging each other, primarily for 'faffe' as anything or any piece of equipment that they choose not to have or use. That can be frustrating.
Also I hope that the hobby moves toward some levels of or at least some options of modularity. It would be really cool to have parts to more easily build your own lever machines with as many or few bells and whistles as you want.
Applause for Gabor: a espresso machine conservator.
The coffee restomod is the content which the algorithm needs.
Love the contraption you came up with. More tech, more better!
This is really beautiful! Love the idea
I personally appreciate the morals and ethics you both had with regards to this machine. Quality character traits that highlight true love and respect for coffee, now and in its history. Well done.
My coffee journey started with a Elektra Micro Casa a Leva and let me tell you, making great shots was a looong journey! But, I don‘t regret getting a 30 year old machine to learn the fundamentals. There is something satisfying about knowing how to do something really good without having all the data to prove it. Great video and mirrors what I have observed over the years with my machine. Cooling the grouphead and portafilter after the second shot is critical to make a drinkable espresso.
i saw this machine when i bought my flair 58 LE from Gábor, he mentioned that he was working on this project for THE James Hoffmann :)
his workshop was very exciting and his Ethiopian coffee was awesome :)
This video makes me even more excited to finally get my Argos because Ross seems to have spent a lot of time trying to address some of the frustrations in that machine. And while I will definitely fuss over the data at the beginning, I look forward to the day that I’m comfortable enough to put the phone down and just enjoy the process.
I guess James couldn’t wait anymore. Come on Ross, it’s so close, just give me my Argos already! 😭
I don't like coffee but I relate to the coffee nerdery by comparing it to the nerdery of video game modding. Here's a hobby built around doing one thing better, for coffee nerds it's drinking coffee, for modders it's playing games, the hobby becomes the chase of improvement and functionality and problematising your attempts to improve things. This video feels like the coffee nerd equivalent of realising it's better to scale things back a bit because your hobby has gone so far that your nerdery is getting in the way of why you have the hobby in the first place.
That said I am reminded of how there are listed buildings where different bits of the building date back to different eras because maybe it was a castle five hundred years ago and then 300 years ago somebody decided to knock down some walls and add a drawing room or something so you have these different styles. The modern day additions to that classic coffee nerd device are as much a part of the history and legacy as the original fixtures.
Just came back to this video…can you please do more vintage machines? They’re just so beautiful 😍
Thanks for another great video Mr. Hoffman. I have been working on trigonometric functions and it's certainly pleasant to see science be applied physically.
Best regards,
Shoshi
I wish I had taken notice when these things were everywhere and really looked at them ! I do remember two
cafés that really used them for boiling water and steam. I can taste Camp Coffee with frothy milk even now ! It was a bit of theatre to justify the prices, and they were cheap. Sort of interesting considering that there were two coffee roasters in our village, and a fairly sophisticated coffee culture along with the above barbarism !
Monstrous abomination of a creature, a Frankenstein of the century.
I can admire the immense effort in creating something like this.
I own a la Pavoni Europiccola Stradivari and actually use it for my everyday coffee and also thought about adding some "tech" to make the machine more "practical" - meaning nerdy. This looks like such a fun project!
The difficulties James experiences are nicely solved in the Odyssey Argos with a dual PID.
Great video, as an owner of a pavoni this really made sense about the temp difference.
This is Steampunk crystallised. Steam, springs, levers and gauges!
It needs some brass gears tacked on, tough.
This so echos my early experiences with the La Pavoni.
Always the best timing! The notification comes up again as I’m setting my cup down on the table
Nice point at the end! It’s nice to know the data but at the end making coffee it is not only the maths! It is the process in itself that should give a pleasure and fun, especially using that beautiful vintage stuff 😊
I think the most amazing thing here is Gabor getting that through the TSA scanners in a carryon...
What a crazy contraption.
Oh nice! the Faemina I was restoring just increased in value. Thanks James!
Off-topic!
I only just thought of this after watching you try to "grind" coffee with a hammer - and in fact, I can't believe I only just thought of this. James I would love to see you on Taskmaster.
I can't be the only James Hoffman & Taskmaster fan around here. In fact, I honestly don't know why it took me so long to figure out you're my dream contestant - you're an obvious candidate for the show.
But now I want to hear from you, James. Have you seen Taskmaster, are you a fan, would you like to taste disgusting toothpaste flavoured pies on national television? I will probably borderline-spam this comment on newer videos till you see this comment.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you have a great day.
Yes! A thousand times -yes yes yes!!!!
I would absolutely love to watch it! I had a similar thoughts with other UA-camrs as well: Tom Scott and Jay Foreman would be a treat to watch as well :D
Yesterday, I was thinking about the intersection of sustainability and quality. I think that while many machines available new today will produce superior espresso, very few of them will be around in 40 much less 10 years and they are built to that knowledge. I love that this gives you modern functionality, with vintage tank-like fortitude and I have had a vague vision of something like this in the back of my head for years. I think in a world where perfection can be increasingly automated, developing a personal skill becomes more difficult to justify and we will be drawn toward eccentric dark arts like this, something like the Victorian Craft movement.
The essence of "espresso is a hobby" is explained in the process of modding this machine. It kind of reminds me of the restomod thing that is happening with classic cars now, keep the soul but make it relevant to todays use scenario.
Thanks for this. My everyday machine is the la pavoni and with these lever machines there's a real art to the temperatures and pressure which you just get the feel of over time. There's certainly easier ways to make espresso but in my opinion this delivers a wonderful shot.
I really get what James says about making it reversible. I have the SEP for my Cremina. To be honest, I only keep it in for my videos. But for private use, I don’t use it.
I enjoy the process, the tactile feel. The information is important in the beginning. But once you get the feel for it you don’t need it. And it gets more fun.
Balancing analytics & aesthetics is not small feat & was well done here! Cheers!
Every time you bring up Gabor, I immediately hear/think about Gabbo from the Simpsons lol
I'd say focus on the workflow feeling it out, but let data assist you. I've been playing around with a Europiccola for a few months now, and it took me a while but am now getting consistent sweet shots with two very different kind of beans.
I feel I can say the grind is the most important factor because it automatically steers brewing time and pressure to where it needs to be. Walking the line from acidic to sweet to bitter seems to be more related to this then to temperature.
Second would be the temperature and while I have the stickers my fingertips are a good enough tool to tell me whether I'm in a range that pulls the shots I like the taste of. I haven't felt the need to use them.
Using a scale with a timer definitely helped. I use the timer during the pull and the scale before and after, just to see if what I thought happened during the pull was actually the case. Really helpful info.
I've been thinking about adding a pressure gauge, but having worked with it for a while I can see why they didn't. Ones you know your brew time and grind, the lever tells you and there's not really anything you can do about it from that point on anyway..