The lost throws and ground techniques of Greco-Roman wrestling
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2024
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Greco-Roman wrestling footage:
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Judo VS Greco-Roman wrestling
ua-cam.com/video/dWMmanHRsKA/v-deo.html
That last technique in English is called a three quarter nelson roll. I use it all the time in BJJ, I used it all the time in wrestling too, it's a great counter to a turtle, or a defended leg shot, and land your opponent in a darce choke.
Are you wearing a gi in your BJJ classes? All the best.
@@QuantumPyrite_88.9 sometimes, I prefer no-gi but I do both.
Too much scissory tangly stalling and butt scoots in bjj. Also bjj guys hardly know how to take shots or defend them. Old style bjj was nice but todays is weak but still good in mma or street. Its horrible as a sport though.
In tenth planet it’s called vice grip to darce
Yes, the last one is very common in collegiate wrestling
Greco-Roman Wrestling is the sport I did in High School offseason. It made the previous martial arts training standing techniques I did useful. If you are a Boxer, Goju Ryu Karateka or other art that has upperbody clinching & joint locks who wants to make their clinch useful then Greco-Roman Wrestling is the best to enhance those skills.
Hey, you literally named what I've been into for 16 years! Not bad!
My grandfather was a ussr champ in the late 60 and he showed me many little tricks of how to time your opponent, how to get them out of balance, how to make them feel uncomfortable and couple of unconventional throws. Really felt like secret old forgotten technique because it wasn’t fought in gyms anymore and I’ve surprised many many opponents haha
Awesome video
He was a freestyle wrestler (back then it wasn’t just single leg) and I did judo
What type of throws where they?
@@danelgegeev4144Can you do a blog or video about those tricks, is historical information about wrestling that needs to be preservated
0:00 - Introduction
0:55 - Overhook / Tsurikomi-goshi
2:00 - Head & arm throw/ Sumi-otoshi
2:50 - Hip toss /Ippon-soe-nage
3:40 - Overhook & underhook & hip toss combo /O-goshi
4:50 - Hip toss & kneeling combo / Yuki-otoshi
6:05 - Belly toss & headlock /Su-temi
6:55 - Double Nelson /Koshi-guruma
8:00 - Turnover drill / (No judo throw)
8:20 - Headlock & toss / (No judo throw)
8:50 - Conclusion
You're awesome bruh
Conclusion my favorite throw
Are they in freestyle wrestling ?
❤
The Greco throw at 3:08- he’s keeping the arm pinned under his own. That’s the true grip of the throw.
These techniques are worth preserving and passing on the next generation. Thank Chadi for producing another brilliant video. God bless you and your family.
You can see how sophisticated are the hip and arm throws in Greco Roman wrestling .
In judo the most interesting and technical point is the ashi waza .
If you notice very well a big difference between judo and Greco Roman is the range of the attacks , judo can be applied at some distance while Greco Roman needs to be close up and personal .
Cause of the range judo needs to work you can use it coupled with striking for self defence.
If you were to compare the 2 arts I would say that Greco Roman is a better grappling art if you want to purely avoid the strikes , but judo is a better self defence art , it's much closer to what grappling at ancient pankration was .
You see ashi waza can be very fast and effective with the smallest mistake an opponent can do , the answer used by many to ashi waza is leg grabbing takedowns but it's completely wrong self defence wise to change altitude at that distance.
The best counter to ashi waza is to control the upper body either with Greco Roman technique or if you have the skill with kotte gaeshi or any other single arm grabbing technique from a distance , again coupled with striking.
Like 20 years ago when I tried Greco Roman after I done Japanese ju jitsu and pankration I seen that wrestlers are strangling against someone with good ashi waza if you kept the distance , if at the same time you could use some aikido techniques merged with the ashi waza you could dictate the fight even against ppl with huge weight difference , but you have a small time gap before the wrestler close the distance , after that he will dictate the fight.
You lost me when you mentioned aikido.
@@paulbadman8509 by aikido stuff i mean small joint manipulation from afar , like standing wristlocks, fingerlocks , shoulder locks merged with judo ashiwaza to actually be useable like old ju jitsu, in ancient pankration those small joint manipulation was called ακροχειριαμος which meant limps control and some pankration champions used them effectively.
All these techniques have been in existence for thousands of years and all come from different styles of wrestling.
Just do MMA
There is no difference period the knowledge being taken advantage of is the same. The only reason we think martial arts is different is because it’s in other languages. The translation of what your doing is the same
Hi Chadi🙏 Commending you again for a good documentation of this🙏 The throw that "blew-your-mind" which begins on the 5:55 mark is called "Kogoshi" in Old/Pre WW2 Judo🥋
It is a throw that evolved from O Goshi but instead a hook under the opponents arm pit is used to toss him. The "wrestling variants" (like Catch or Greco Roman) end up kneeling (ala Morote Seoi) or a Sutemi Waza-esque.
Thank You Chadi👍🥋🤼🙏🙂
Thanks Chadi ... very interesting. having begun my BJJ training back in '87 in Rio - I was influenced (via the Machado's) by the approach taken by Rolles Gracie - who was trained extensively in Greco and Freestyle - which in turn, influenced his approach to BJJ. I love your work. - John Will
Are you the wrestler who wrote several articles on vajramushti wrestling in India?
That head and arm throw is a headlock (head and arm) sag throw. Many in judo that use it call it a Koshi guruma sag. 🤷
Greco is awesome!
Superb content my friend.
The algorithm blessed me with that soviet Greco-Roman footage a few years ago and its revisited several times a month. It was a real treat to hear your commentary and insight on this classic.
🙇🏻♂️
Amazing video! There are so many common throws in the different arts. In karate kata you see many of the same moves. Unfortunately very rarely practised.
Rarely practiced? Says who?
Keep these coming. I'm trying to perfect the uchi and soto makikomi for freestyle wrestling and these videos are giving me insight of what the pioneers used to do. Off the bat I already see shadow arm spins 10 seconds into the video. Love it
Collegiate wrestling coach here, newish fan of you. Want to give you some of the “wrestler names” to these techniques. Not all have consistent names but a few do.
6:31 - Fat man roll. Very popular with low level heavyweight wrestlers as a move from the folkstyle bottom position
7:05 - double chicken wing. Hard to pull off move mostly used is folkstyle wrestling. Double Nelson would be a full Nelson and illegal in all wrestling
8:34 - 3/4th Nelson. There’s also a quarter Nelson if you didn’t know.
9:04 - arm spin
Sick chanel. There are many forgoten techniques out there. Unfortunately sometimes knowledge dies with certain combatants and coaches,
Hi Chadi, great video, I was an All-American Greco-Roman wrestler in College back in 2005-2008. Regarding the O Goshi that the greco guy did where he transitioned his position under his opponent and switched back to O Goshi... I don't believe he was going for a fireman but rather a high dive.
Удивительно вкусные кадры, буквально раскрывающие принципы Великого Мастерства! Спасибо!)
Thanks a lot for the videos, Chadi just want to inform you that name of that technique in Persian is Changak چنگک which means "grappling-iron" or "pitchfork".
I was already a subscriber, but this made click the bell. I'm gonna have to check out more of your videos. Really great content.
🙇🏻♂️
Last quarter nelson grip is pretty standard in Bjj gyms when the opponent is turtling and you wanna break them down to set up the d'arce choke
I have now idea what I’m watching but your commentary is fascinating.
Folk style in college wrestling blend nicely with self-defense as well as MMA
Hi, Chadi. I really enjoy your videos.
The grip in question for that final turnover (around 8:40 I think) is called a 1/4 Nelson, or simply a Quarter Nelson.
Very effective technique, I’ve pinned many strong opponents with it.
Yes, it is a form of a Quarter nelson, except it is applied on the outside and the hand grabbing your own wrist threads through the opponents armpit. So maybe it can be called an Outside Power Quarter Nelson.
@@treedio You’re correct I’ve used to doing it from the front, often when you’re pushing their head down as they grab for a leg.
In the late 80s and early to mid 90s the U.S. Army Ranger school incorporated greco-roman wrestling into training. Gracie Jiujitsu combatives was incorporated into Ranger Battalion training but wasn't taught at Ranger school.
Greco-Roman wrestling pummeling and takedowns were practiced in Ranger School (which is different from Ranger Battalion training).
But Greco-Roman wrestling isn't an art that can be useful well into middle or old age like Boxing, Judo and Jiujitsu for self-defense.
There's a shelf-life for many arts that rely upon the athleticism & strength of youth.
How is wrestling, especially wrestling for mma or freestyle more athletic than judo? If anything the throws hurt more in judo, in wrestling you fall mostly on your butt…and the grip-fighting is not as brutal
@@stefangurguriev1047 I'm not refering to 'learning' wrestling or Judo in one's old age.
I'm refering to 'applying' Judo in self defense vs applying greco-roman wrestling in self defense after one's become elderly.
If you take a greco roman wrestling expert, he'll not be able to apply greco-roman wrestling throws in a fight when he's elderly.
But a Judo expert can still apply many Judo takedowns in a fight when he's elderly (ashi waza, osoto gari, te garuma and even many newaza can still be applied by an elderly, retired, Judoka).
An elderly, retired, greco-roman wrestler isn't gonna be able to perform his throws at that stage in life because they rely more upon strength and athleticism than many Judo techniques.
When my son's grandfather was in his early 60s and his wife in her early 40s he used te garuma to toss a much younger, bigger, man into a center aisle deep freezer in the commissary for sexually harrassing his wife.
A 60 year old greco-roman wrestler most likely wouldn't be suplexing a bigger, younger, man.
Many Judo applications, against untrained adversaries, require very little strength or athleticism from an expert judoka.
Greco-Roman Wrestling depends a great deal upon strength & athleticism.
Disagree? Try osoto gari takedown or any ashi waza foot sweep on an untrained opponent.
Then try a greco-roman wrestling throw on an untrained opponent.
As a bjj guy I like the feeling that I don't understand what is happening during some pins
Heh, fair. The top wrestler is trying to get the bottom wrestlers shoulders to the matt because that is an instant win by pin. Bottom wrestler doesn't like that and will bridge as much as they can to stop it.
@@TheDevourerOfPancake I got the theory. Maybe to be precise, it's harder for me to visualise myself doing these moves, unlike typical submission grappling.
This was amazing to see these techniques.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
I don’t quite know what I expected from this video, but I bloody hell did not expect an Italian wrestling doing an amazing Aikido Iriminage. Geez louise that was cool!
9:24 The real lost technique in the video is jumping ropes!
I don't see it in Judo, Jujitsu or wrestling classes.
This video is great! Thank you for working toward preserving the Martial Arts! I love your videos and have subscribed!
Awesome shit, AWESOME black and white classic video for the ages, awesome channel (apparently) - you got my subscription, brotha. 👍👍👍👏💚
Caught this one early, thanks for all you do sir!
Hi, I am from Las Vegas Nevada and I am a former wrestler of both freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling and I once trained for a month at this very place in the USSR in 1990 . These wresters seem to practice with there throws emphasizing first the set ups and most important ,there hip fallow through. I feel that with this in mind one can throw with any number of hand and arm placement, or judo gee grasp. There techniques are so much more advanced than what I see today in the US and these old Soviet films should be inspiration for anyone in combative sports.
Humanity is the same. We are all the same. We all have 2 arms amd 2 legs. We all have similar options. When u give man the same conditions with the same choices, we will both choose, behave and come to the same conclusions/techniques.
Thanks for your detailed analysis, very interesting.
Awesome video. Regards from Brazil.
Wow, memories of my highschool days during the 80’s!
Однажды с семинарами по греко-римской борьбе приехал. Тренер. Мирового уровня Вершинин. В процессе проведения приёма. Объяснение подводка и выход на свой излюбленный приём. В процессе показа огромное внимание уделял на разнообразие выполнения одного и того же приема разными мастерами сборной СССР. С характерными индивидуальными подходами с учётом особенностей спортсменов их функционал. Антропология индивидуальные черты характера скорость выносливость .
Un instructivo vídeo. Gracias 👍❤️
sweet video. i love watching old films.
The seoi-nage @2:50 looks akin to Riki Nakaya’s throw against Sai of China at the 2014 worlds.
The intro looks like a room full of Dom Cruz warming up.
Thanks. Great video
Very interesting...the parallels to Ne Waza is well noted...
Like Brazilian jiu-jitsu but the mindset is in reverse. Use as much force and effort as possible
That was a very good video.
Thank you
well put together! good job!
The move at 6:05 is incredible difficult to hit in a match, but still masterpiece technique.
the over hook hip toss is difficult in greco because the rules dont allow you to back hook with your step through leg . without the back hook its hard to create enough leverage to elevate the opponent over your hip, especially if hes a high level wrestler who are typically very familiar with hip toss defense.
Hey do you mind composing a video covering Kudo as a martial art and whether or not you consider it to be an effective art? It's derived from judo , kyokushin karate, boxing it looks pretty brutal and realistic.
unfortunately there is not a single kudo gym in Germany
Very extensive judo knowledge
Steve Scott and Derek darling call ‘the head and arm throw’ “the Kubi Nage” - the neck throw from sumo and describe it as a hybrid between The Koshi Guruma and The Tai Otoshi
I really recommend watching the video and it is an essential throw in the gokyo of no gi judo as it’s the bridge between tai otoshi and koshi guruma
Technically speaking, none of these techniques are "lost", since all of them are still taught. However, they have come out of fashion to a certain degree, since they are harder or more risky to apply under modern rules and positions - especially parterre has changed a lot since the 1980ies, and parterre defense and offense has become one of the main areas to focus on, and most international players prefer getting their points by playing active in the stand-up and then scoring in parterre. So calling these "lost" would be similar to calling, say, hane goshi (or any throw from the Gokyo currently seen rarely in competition) the same.
8:20 you can read "leva ascellare" it is in italian language, you can traslete it as armpit lever.
That fireman's to the overhead dump has had variations used back then in pride back then in ufc when mma got started and had more judo guys.
Best two grappling styles hands down
Черно-белая съёмка из Советского учебного фильма по Классической борьбе.Нам показывали в 70х.на тренировках.
when you think of grappling as a finite series of solutions to a finite series of problems involving a fixed form (namely the human body), it starts to make sense that nothing is new under the sun and almost every style of folk wrestling in human history has at one point arrived at the same techniques.
Love the Chanel brother
that guy going throw the motions of the throws looks like Cuba Gooding Jr. throwing Punches in the air in Boyz N The Hood
Sos un grande Chadi... Sabelo
what they call a LEVA ASCELLARE lives on in american folkstyle wrestling we called it (where i grew up anyway) a "three quarter nelson" and it was one of my friends favorite pinning combinations
Wow Awesome Thank you 😊 ❤️🙏
Travis Stevens does a very similar ISN to that done by the Greco Roman wrestler you showed. The arm is all the way up by the collarbone instead of gripped in the bicep
The sag headlock is not similar to irime nage mechanically, because it relies on dropping your weight (or sagging) on the opponent's neck while they are off balance.
But it does look similar I'll give you that!
Thank you. Chadi, do you consult with wrestling experts before you make these videos? If not, maybe you should. Really they don't even have to be experts, just a basic understanding of greco, standing and par terre. There are several things in the video that are misidentified or explained, in regards to wrestling. things that you say are "lost" but are very common. Just let me know if you need help.
Will do🙇🏻♂️
Please do I did alot these techniques in high school. When I cross trained in wing chun
What's also interesting, I remeber reading that the Roman's saw Greek wrestling, and liked it, adopting it mostly, except they thought the Greco wrestling was too violent, so they toned it down. And that's the old basis if Greco-Roman wrestling, and it seems some of the original greco wrestling techniques were lost to time.
I'm curious what the Roman's (who watched people ripped apart by animals, and watched people fight to the death as a pastime) thought was too violent.
Except what the name "Greco-Roman" wrestling is a misnomer. It's actually French, as best we can tell.
Greco-Roman wrestling was much closer to (Olympic) Freestyle/Catch. Just look at the images and statues and see how many include manipulations with the legs.
So why was it misnamed? As a reference to Classical Civilizations, the values of those civilisations (including athleticism and body development, fair competition and the like), and to make it more attractive to the public of then...19th century, AFAICT. Classical civilizations were fashionable at the time. Remember: that was the time when the Olympics didn't exist yet/had ceased to exist...and why do you think they named it after an Ancient Greek event?
Fashion.
Also, I need to work on my grappling more, but at least my knowledge of history is far ahead of my grappling ability.
Greco Roman wrestling is french. It is a interpretive style of what was thought to be done in Greek and roman times. From the study of Greek and roman art. It's a fantastic martial art. But if the interpretations are wrong. Than it is not Greek and roman at all but french.
wrestling is amazing
Cela me rappelle les conseils de Monsieur Alan JONES.
Un grand judoka/ lutteur.
Great video
Love it keep pushing the envelope and creativity however some of these throws leave your neck vulnerable. As much as I love art if it exposes you to the end to death possibly. I would rather not lean to heavily on some of these moves. Thank you so much for this though very interesting Worth watching
Martial arts can teach us to end all wars.
I wonder how much influence Judo and Jujitsu had on these throws in the wrestling clips.
Last technique is called vice grip to darce in tenth planet bjj
That 6:07min is Yoko-wakare!! Amazing!
Used that reversal in no GI BJJ slot back in the day
He is not trying to do legless fireman carry, but rather to dive under the arm and body lock his opponent. I think that technique is pretty standard in freestyle and idk what it's called in English but in Russian its called "НЫРОК"
Thank you Chadi. Very interesting I like the convergence of Roman Greco and the Jiu-Jitsu or judo
This video is very informative and interesting. Do you have vids on Catch Wrestling as well? Gracias
I did this sport when i was 12 one year
I think every martial art are somehow related. Did you know that Mabuni Kenwa was a judo practitioner? The founder of the shito ryu karate school. Thank you sensei for this video
a lot of karateka were grapplers too, in fact it was the norm in okinawa.
The founder of wado ryu was a jujutsu master, the founder of kyokushin did both wrestling and judo, funakoshi wrestled in his youth (there is a literal piledriver in his book lmao)
Greco-Roman is awesome! Good video. At the start of the video and the end there is a wrestler that did the body lock lift to a dump aleksandr karelin style. Anybody know what that technique is called in greco?
In Persian we call it Pich pichak or Piche kamar پیچ پیچک
Another common term is a "reverse lift/reverse body lift", or unsurprisingly a Karelin lift.
Subscribed
🙇🏻♂️
awesome sauce
Angels wrestlers like Dan Kolov, good people
Judo is beautiful however I’d rather train in Greco Roman wrestling due to the fact they don’t need the gi to pull off throws.. very high percentage for street self defense and easily transferable to mixed martial arts as well.
The gi provides more variety of throws . Learning judo gives u the edge because u can learn throws in gi and without it so the range of throws is superior to Greco Roman and on top of that judo has submissions
@@dhimankalita1690 I fully agree with that statement. I’m just looking through the lenses of MMA I guess where learning gi is counter productive. However your statement is very accurate 🤙🏻
8:47 if I'm not mistaken that's a "Three- Quarter" Nelson, but could be a little different, hard to tell
That move where he cranks the neck is called a power half nelson.
'Kimura grip' is also often called a 'figure 4'
as of the late 1800's, greco was still associated with a double wrist lock that could break both arms
At the 7:00 minute mark it’s not a double Nelson it’s a full chicken wing! Also, at the 6:20 it’s an over/under tie up into back arching suplex. Another way you can execute this in Gi do a variation of a yoko wakare but in a ippon set-up. Some others call it a Jap-Whizzer. Otherwise not bad explaining as usual.
The technique at 08:30 is a Quarter Nelson.
The main problem is the difference between knife vs gun. Disarms and defence in judo or jitsu against guns isn't too effective. They didn't have auto or semi automatic guns back when it was developed. Using the same technique on a gun as a knife is a mistake. With a gun you want to stay out of the line of fire. So one should start with turning the body away from the barrel while grabbing the weapon and controlling the angles so the barrel doesn't ever go past your torso or anyone close to you. As the example with the judo guys that would lead to getting shot. If you want good examples of gun disarms I'd advise checking krav maga. It was developed by military specialists that understand firearms. Now knife defense in jitsu can be effective. But one needs to consider the amount of resistance and expertise of the assaulter. In this example the guy was trying to rob a place. He wasn't expecting any resistance. His intent isn't to kill, it's to intimidate. But grabbing his knife could also lead to panic and you getting stabbed because of that. It helps sometimes to resist but throwing stuff of using anything as a force multiplier and creating distance is way more effective. Staying away from the weapon and creating distance. People resisting can scare them away. But getting to close isn't s great idea.
It also depends on the experience level of the wielder. Is it some junky that doesn't know what their doing or a street thug that's stabbed someone a couple times.
So unless you can calculate intentions and skill level quickly it's not advisable to try anything. In self defense the first thing they teach is just give them what they want. Knifes are extremely dangerous. More so then guns. You can get shot at without ever being hit. You can get hit in places that aren't fatal. Knifes however do a lot more damage. They do not run out of ammo. And often reach fatal targets because their use is more instinctual. Now if they just want your stuff then your out of trouble once you handed it over. If they planned to rob you, they have what they want and will back off.
If however they keep going after you,after you have handed over your stuff, then you can assume their intent is to do you harm. Better to take them out very fast. Trying to grab the knife arm will result in a struggle. Most attacks are sowing machine style where they will continuesly stab you in the stomach area where your major organs are. It's done with heavy aggression and violence. Resulting in internal bleeding, rapid blood loss, and loss of consciousness. Running at that point isn't an option either because their intent is to kill you. And turning your back is giving them a target, while leaving you defenseless. Breaking down their body would be best. Aim for lethal points. Knock them out. Expect to get cut or stabbed and be prepared to go through the pain. It's now life or death so there are no rules. Set your mind to kill mode. It's now you or them. No more consideration to their well being.
If you can, kick the kneecap. If done correctly you can escape easily and the attacker can't come after you. But be careful trying to lock up. Unless you can do it in your sleep, your chances are very small, especially if the attacker knows how to use a knife.
interesting video
Darce setup.
Jeff Glover uses the three finger grip to turn them over and darce them.
Excelent
Last one, my coach calls that grip a head keylock from turtle under the arm. Lol. Convoluted but acurate. Or how catch wrestlers call it, figure four or quarter nelson.
There's no such thing as any lost techniques in wrestling. Certain moves are only effective against certain competition. If you watch enough college wrestling you will see all kinds of techniques that aren't even traditional wrestling techniques being used. But I noticed you actually said what I mentioned as I watched 😉
Leva ascellare means doing leverage on the armpit.
That last move is a 1/4 Nelson.