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Radiant Heat | Planning The Layout and Building DIY Return Bends and Sleepers [2019 Retrofit]
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2019
- There are all kinds of resources out there regarding in-floor radiant heat. The problem is a lot of them are quite out or not very well put together. I've sifted through tons of material and done all kinds of research, putting together my plan for in-floor radiant. I am going to share with you in this video, and future videos, what I have decided to do for my radiant install, and explain why I made this choices.
In this video I talk about the various types of radiant installs: pour over, staple up, and sleeper. I also discuss aluminum heat transfer plates, and compare them with more complete systems. And finally I being building the return bends for my installation.
Content Mentioned In This Video:
1806 Stone House: / cafemanning
Aluminium Heat Transfer Plates I'm Using: amzn.to/33lwJVH
The Bosch Router I'm Using: amzn.to/310ZxAY
The Templating Bit I'm Using: amzn.to/2nwvGTz
Check us out on Instagram: / natehovinga
We bought this 1920's farm house in the little town we grew up in. Come along for the ride as we bring this thing back to life and turn it into our dream home! We are not builders, so hang in there with us as we figure it out along the way, in true DIY fashion. Hopefully you enjoy watching us work on our fixer upper as much as we enjoy the work!
Good luck!! Man you and Lucas are so advanced with this infloor heating!
One of those luxuries that I could never afford if i had to pay someone, but If I can figure it out by myself then its in the budget!
This was soooo helpful on setting up my above the subfloor radiant heat system. I suggest wearing hearing and breathing protection when your ripping down multiple sheets of 3/4" plywood, and routering out the U-bends. I initially calculated 8 5/16"s for the sleepers on a 9" on center pattern, but that was too tight. I used 8 1/4" for the width of the sleepers in a 9" on center installation, and that gave enough flexibility to accomodate the pattern.
Thanks for the info, im glad it worked for you
Glad I found this channel Nate - great info on the way you did the flooring.
Glad it was helpful!
@@natenstaci I am literally starting this job tomorrow. Thanks for the guidance. Which method did you like the most, the pipe under the transfer plate or above it?
JustinTrojan I started today also . Looks like the sleepers will actually end up being 7 3/8” wide - to account for the 5/8 “ grooves . That’s the only way I could figure having 6 loops in an 8ft span . Which also means 3.5 inches of waste on every sheet of plywood
Uh, the pipe over the transfer plate was the easiest way to install it. I like under better though for the protection it gives everything
That sounds about how mine ended up as well. The "waste" at the end isn't actually waste, it you butt two of them and to end those two ends make up there perfect space for another sleeper.
Yes, doing the retro fit in the joists is stupid hard.. haha!! Lol!! I’m still crazy from that.. lol what you’re doing here is perfect 👍
Thanks for the confirmation! We'll see how this goes once I get into it, we'll see if it's actually better or not
Nate n Staci ha!!! The best part is I don’t have to explain it now.. I’m just going to send people to your video 😂
I wont complain about that, hopefully i can live up to your clarity when you explain stuff
Did the same thing in our remodel. Instead of the heat transfer plates I rolled out aluminum flashing on top of the tubing and boards.
nice! im sure that worked well too
I'm doing basically the same thing you are doing; except I've flipped everything over. The flat part of my aluminum heat transfer plates are on top of the sleepers, and the pex sits in the slot, rather than the aluminum plates being over top the pex. I did this before and put 1/4" cement board on top, and then tile. I've also done it where I put hardwood flooring directly over top of the aluminum plates. In this instance, I'm putting Ditra over top the aluminum plates, and then tile over the Ditra.
for sure, i actually did both, anywhere we have tile i did it the way the you are talking, fins on the top and then ditra and tile on top.
I've got my 2 sheets of plywood screwed down already so I'm gonna draw out my pattern and router away and then fins over the top. Yes I'll have to remove screws. No biggy.
Hey Marlon, how did it work out when you put hardwood directly overtop of an up-facing omega style transfer plate? When would you suggest that versus up-facing with cement board on top? Thanks!
@@natenstaci we are at the point where we have the whole floor done with the fins up for tile, we were going to put cement board down and then tile and we’re getting some conflicting information. Do we still need an uncoupling membrane on top of cement board? Do we need thin set under the cement board on top of the tubing and fins? You said you put Ditra directly on top of the sleepers and fins, was it flat enough?
@@dennyo3992 Yes, the ditra right on the sleepers was more than flat enough and we didnt have any issues with grout cracking or anything. The only place we had an issues is where the tile met the wood, that line needs to be caulked rather than grouted
We also used 1/2” cement board.. thinking it would work better as a heat sink. 👍 I love the sandwich method
I totally agree, i think thatll work great
It's so fantastic to have such a great resource like YT to make connections, share experiences & bounce ideas off each other!!! Routing for both you guys Bigtime!!! Hope all is well, great job so far to both of you & Dirty Jersey out!!!
Money Making Mike G. Agreed!! It’s been great 😃👍
It's great to build a community here, of people all undertaking similar others but doing them their own way and with their own perspectives, makes us all better!
Hey this is great, thank you! May I ask what size and shape router bit you used?
You guys are a DIY inspiration - thanks for sharing. Now that you've had some time with the system, what are your thoughts on running the transfer plates under the sleepers for floors getting hardwood? Your implementation is the first I've seen - I really like the approach - any second thoughts?
Thanks for the kind words! Do far the system is working great, it's super quiet and heats really well. Now I don't have any comparison, as this is my first hydronic system, but everything works the way I expect it do
Hello! This is super helpful! What Templating Bit did you use? There are several options when I followed your link.
I just used a flush template bit with a bearing on the top
Hey this is fantastic information. I am going to do the exact same thing for my diy renovation. Do you have the measurements for the 1/2 return bends that you mocked up? How far away are each bend and the size. Keep up the great work. I hate watching this with my wife because she expects way too much from me!
I'm glad it's helpful! I don't recall the exact dimensions, but each run is 12" apart, I cut all the long straight ones on a table saw and then the returns with a router.
Nicely Done. What type of plywood would you recommend for such a retrofit? Thanks for the inspiration!
I just used cheap... Might be better in the long run to get something more expensive that might be more dimensionally stable, but I couldn't find proof to back that up and it could be quite a bit but expensive
Hi thanks for the video and sharing your ideas. I'm planning to do same in floor heating like yours but on a concrete slab. Did you use any insulation prior to laying and what would you recommend?
You absolutely need to use insulation with concrete, I put mine down before my slab and then poured over the heating tubes. Either way though I think the typical insulation you'd use would be xps foam, that purple stuff that comes in 4x8 sheets
Hi your video has inspired me to take on this project. I’d like to know what system you’re using and if you did everything but the boiler hook up. What is involved in connecting the manifold, supply line, etc. Did you happen to write a step by step guide of any kind? Was there a manual you followed?
I love to hear that! all of the stuff i used in this video was uponor. I did not have a manual, it was pretty straight forward. And correct, i did everything up to the manifild and had sometone come out and connect the boiled and such. However in a more recent project i installed the boiled and everything as well.
Nate...thanks!...doing a complete re-model on 100plus years old house in WI..had intended on putting pex under floor because the warm board was outrageously expensive so this is a game changer!...how difficult to run your returns and service to manifold? and did you just drop down at 300ft?....what is your heat source? ..I installed a tankless to provide for floor and house water (small house 1200 sq ft)....more radiant floor vids please, particularly your heat source set up....Really appreciate it thanks!
Hey David, sorry for the delay in replying. Yeah it is two layers of subfloor, the first layer is the normal 3/4 OSB, then the heating later is 3/4 plywood. It wasn't hard work to make and run it all, but certainly time consuming. I also have a tankless to run both domestic hot water and the radiant heat, and then a manifold and pump for each floor. Hope that helps! Happy to answer any more questions you may have.
Also regarding length, I tried to keep each loop within the manifold the same length, I used a program called loopcad to lay them all out ahead of time.
Nate - this was super helpful and I a following your lead to install hydronic heating in my mountain cabin. Did you design the hydronic mechanical panel yourself? If so, could you share details. I have not been able to find a plumber who is familiar with hydronic willing to take on my project, so I will likely install the boiler and plumbing myself.
i did actually have a local HVAC guy design and install it. seems like there about 1 million ways to do it though and not sure any of them are wrong
Nate this is awsome. I have an 1800 farm house that i am doing this to it was also 15k for warmboard for myself. Do you have one manifold for the house or is your basement on a separate manifold? I want to do my second story aswell and was wondering if that should be a separate manifold.
Awesome! It's not hard, just a lot of work. Each one of my floors is it's own manifold
Great video...can I create these channels directly into my subflooring so I don't have height issues between different rooms? Then use thinset for my tiling?
Thanks in advance
I would be worried that would compromise the structural integrity of your floor. I wouldn't recommend it
Hi,
I'm interested and would like to know if the heat feels uniform of is felt more where the PEX runs ?
Thanks in advance !
They are close enough together and the with the aluminum transfer plates I couldn't tell you where the pipes are or not just by feeling it. It's a very uniform heat.
Instead of a router template, could a 1x4 with a half circle on the end just be tacked down and then let the router platform follow around the outside ? Then you could tack it down wherever needed instead of prefabbing a layout.
Yeah, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I created the template I did so that in an 8' board they were all consistent and equally spaced
Question for you Nate: the pex you are using is 1/2", and the plywood you've got is 3/4", so does that mean you've got a slight indent over every pex & heat panel? Or does it end up being flush somehow?!
Yes, it is slightly indented, I did that so I could leave a little "meat" in the routered out channels for the return bends. Where ever we put carpet we did a skin coat of "quick patch" to fill in all those gaps and add more thermal mass
Hi Nate, Why do you put the aluminum fine on the subfloor and below the sleeper. Could you not put the aluminum fine on top of the sleeper. This would have the heat closer to the surface. Heat would only transfer through the finish floor and not have to move through sleeper plus the finish floor. What is your thought? The Warm Bord system is like this with a panel of aluminum facing up. The problem that you mentioned is very expensive.
I did it this way too help protect the piping and really the goal was to heat up the whole structure, so I'm not sure it matters too much. I did have the fins up where I had tile over it. I do really want to do a test on all the different methods of installing infloor radiant some day
How did you do the radiant heat with your tile floor? Did you use an isolation pad/membrane or ditra or just put the tile right onto the plywood?
We love it, we did use ditra
I am doing this now with 22' runs. I cut the template and the end curves. Do you think it would be easier to lay down full plywood sheets, screwing and gluing the full 22' x 16' area then just cutting out a 3/4" slot for the transfer plate and pex? I am roof nailing the transfer plates down and putting pex in from top like Nate did for his tile floor. Opposite of how he did for the wood. Then laying underlayment for my LVP. Thoughts?
im guessing you already completed this project, how did it turn out? my thought is that would be a lot of router work
Would this work on a slab? I've been looking at some of the concrete pour over panels but man are they expensive for a piece of expanded plastic....
This is what I did for my slab, you certainly want insulation between your heat and the ground. ua-cam.com/video/N7FVp08UmFs/v-deo.html
Did you use the same bit for the turns and for the runs? Because you fit more material with the fins in the straight runs, isn't the PEX in the turns tend to be looser?
the straight runs were not routered out, the boards were just ripped to a set width
Can you give more info on the template measurements and what you used ?
At the beginning of this video you actually see me cutting out my template jig for these. I used a circle jib for my router to create a template out of MDF, and then used a patterning bit in the router to cut out all of the sleepers. I dont recall the actual dimensions but just the right radius to match up with whatever you cut your sleeper widths to.
Nate...what is the thickness of your subfloor under pex....two subfloors and finished floor?...thanks
the sub floor is just standard 3/4 osb. then the 5/8 thickness for the pex and sleepers, then whatever flooring is on top of that.
Hey nate. Iv wanted to do this same idea for so long in my cabin. I was thinking of laying the radiant pex line and using the same sleeper method you did but put a full piece of aluminum over the whole floor. Im wonder how well your system is working? Would you do this method again?
Also thanks for posting this video. You're the first one on UA-cam that I have seen doing this method
Thanks! Yeah I struggled finding any good resources too! This method had worked great for us, I would do it the same if I had to do it again. I can't speak to how a while plate would work, but maybe overkill?
Did you use the same 5/8th bit for when cutting channels for aluminum transfer plates?
I actually cut the boards to the width of the gap between the transfer plates on a straight line rip saw... kind of like a table saw
Safety glasses !
The thing I'm concerned about is that doesn't the tubing expand pretty dramatically as it heats?
Not too much, this tubing and channels are all made for in floor heat and its been great all winter, there was a little noise at first with things moving around and settling into place but its been essentially silent for the last several months
Howd this go, I agree there are tonnes of resources out there about ufh, and a lot of it is very different from each other. Also what size of pipe you use? is it 16mm?
The install went great! all of the tubing is 1/2 pex
@@natenstaci Nice one mate, thanks for the reply. Whats the flow temp of the boiler?
Have you noticed any problems with the expansion and contraction of the hardwood?
a few gaps here or there in the winter but nothing major
I thought about making my own returns too.. ended up not really needed to..
Yeah, yours turned out really nice looking! plus you'll be tiling? So any voids will be filled with morter right? Making the returns actually turned out to be super simple.
Nate n Staci ya, I’m going to use floor leveling in the voids and then ditra.. then, my marble 👍
Nice, thats going to be a really nice warm floor
Those fins look mighty small. I given your perimeters probably wou have laid a cheap galvanized sheet below the installation too to spread that all out.
Thanks for the suggestion, it's so hard to know what the best way is, there are so many options and different products out there,I wish someone would but together a solid resource for diy'ers like us.
Any tips on where I can get a template to make those end pieces for pex curves?
I just used a plunge router and a circle jig and made one out of mdf
@@natenstaci thanks
Thanks for the inspiration, are you able to do a video on using both of the tools to do this? This is probably the hardest part to getting it right for the turns and one part I’m not lookin forward to. If you can make a video on this, I’m sure others would love it and appreciate your help. I’m planing on buying these tools to do this, but have no idea on how to make them perfectly straight and curved for a 10” spacing. Thank you
You install the Omega plates upside down limiting the efectiveness
That was a conscious decision to help keep the floor flatter for the hardwood, this was recommended by one of the transfer plate suppliers out there
At $250 for 100 pieces 4' each and set 6" apart, each package of those heat transfer plates only covers 200sf of floor, right ? So over $1/sf of room area ? That seems pricey. You said they only cost $500 for your whole house, so that seems to cover just 500-600sf of floor ?? You noticed the thickness of the various plates available varied from brand to brand. Did you do any testing of just heavy duty aluminum foil between subfloor and sleepers ? That would be only a nickel per sf. I am looking at 2000sf of new construction floor area and the $2000+ for aluminum fins seems ridiculous.
I ran mine father than 6" apart, I think mine were 1'. And I went with thin fins from Amazon. And I bought way too many! Regarding the thickness, I am/was in the same boat as you, I couldn't find any good resources to really tell if the thinker plates were really worth it. I did find one study that kind of addressed it but not really. Ultimately fire me it came down to budget. I would still like to run a test at some point and truely test the various methods.
The industry is ripping us off because hydronics is still a novelty in the USA. Alum sheet heat plates are easy to commercially produce. Try finding 5/8" tub size, 5 or 6" wide by 48inch long. Most people d know that it takes 5/8" pex do to cold viscosity and to decrease head press to reasonable. Those that sell heat plates started with a product ide concept before they looked at the most efficient. In the old days no one cared about head pressure or high supply water temperature, but most of the mal- fit heat plates out there are not wide enough, and to thin for reasonable conductivity, and not sized for 5/8 or 3/4 pex. All homes should be running 5/8" pex tubing, maximum is 6 inches on center. Yes , passive houses do not need this much, but passive houses are so expensive and rare that it's like looking for a zebra on a horse ranch. Try pressing roll alum roof flashing to make your own heat plate, or order in advance from china, or by European made pex. And if you find boilers and heat pumps to expensive use a gas hot water heater (40 gal). However try to size all your stuff for the future and up grade.